Perpetually awkward dancers
Kathleen Hunt
There's a guy at the group I dance with who is, how can I put this, not the
most incredibly coordinated person in the world. For some reason this
fascinates me -- every now and then I try to figure out exactly what it
is that he is or isn't doing. *Why* does he look so awkward? He's
been dancing a lot in the past year and has actually improved a whole lot,
and he knows some pretty complex Balkan dances now. So he can learn the
patterns of footwork. But he still looks awkward. Why?? It seems that
he somehow never bends at the hip, or resists hopping clear of the ground,
or puts his feet down very flat-footed. He seems very earthbound. What
fascinates me is, is he EVER going to improve? I know this may sound kind
of crass but I'm curious (being a new dancer myself)...I know that for a
lot of slow learners, they are just that, *slow* learners, *not* non-learners,
and given enough time they *do* learn and are eventually as good as the
fast learners. (Thank god, or there are lots of things I'd've never learned)
But does he KNOW what he looks like? There's a sort of grisly fascination...
I was horrified to realize that I was deliberately avoiding dancing near him
(and near a couple other similar people) because of his dancing ability.
What a snobby thing to do. If people had done that to me when I was just
starting, I probably wouldn't have enjoyed it very much and certainly would
not have gotten any better. So now I just join the line & dance next to him.
(And actually it isn't bad at all.)
One thing I have started to do when I'm next to a truly rotten dancer is to
make my cues a little stronger (harsher?) I haul him around more (e.g. on
dances that go forward & back, or some such). I don't know if this is
helpful or not. At least it keeps the rest of the line moving normally.
'Specially on those few dances with a leader on the right but where the tail
on the left has to pull the line to the left...sometimes the tail doesn't
realize this, and the line starts to smush up into a wall, unless a person
2 or 3 from the tail takes it upon themselves to *shove* the 1 or 2 tail
people to the left and *haul* the line along...sorry if this sounds like
a mule dragging a barge on the Erie canal, but it seems like that's what
it takes sometimes to save the line. This happened to me with Lamba Lamba
last week. I had a 3-person tail to my left that didn't know what to do,
and a line of about 15 on my right all squashing into me. Hang on gang!
*YANK* *SHOVE* hop step hop step etc. *YANK* *SHOVE* hop step hop step etc.
*YANK* *SHOVE* hop step hop step etc. This particular Awkward Guy I've
been discussing was the tail and I think he had completely forgotten about
moving to the left.
Sigh...so what do you all do about the Stupendously Awkward Among Us? Do
you just dance with them resignedly, or do you attempt to gently show them how
to improve, or subtly model for them or guide them in some way? And do
they eventually get better, or not?
On the reverse note, since I started dancing I have noticed that it is now a
*real* turn-on when I see a guy who really dances well. Zipping around out
there with flashy, crisp leg-lifts and neat, smooth movements and boots
flying. *sigh* *drool*
Kathleen
who is still assuring her podiatrist "No, I'm not dancing at all...hardly..."
pere...@husc15.harvard.edu
>
> There's a guy at the group I dance with who is, how can I put this, not the
> most incredibly coordinated person in the world.
> he somehow never bends at the hip, or resists hopping clear of the ground,
> or puts his feet down very flat-footed. He seems very earthbound. What
> fascinates me is, is he EVER going to improve? I know this may sound kind
> of crass but I'm curious (being a new dancer myself).
I am a slow learner myself, but with enough experience now to know
that it just takes me longer.
I remained quite earthbound until, after some 4 years of dancing,
two new dancers in our group started acting silly and starting having contests
during practice (and in performances) about how high they could keep their
legs up as they twirled and how loud they could come crashing down on the
stage (This was Jalisco Mexican folkdancing, where we use boots with nails
to sound louder). I started joining in on the fun, and then soon at following
performance, we started to get compliments like "Gosh, you guys really get
into it!".
Then it struck me. I was, finally after 4+ years of dancing, really
"getting into it." No longer earthbound. Starting to use all the stage
to dance in.
I guess I stopped looking at dancing as following a mechanical
sequence, with strong awarness of "correctness". I started interpreting and
expressing myself on stage. Started "gettin' down!"
I had reached a level where I was confident of my skills (ability to
remember the choreography during a performance-pressure, ability to adapt to
a screwed up sequence, ability to adapt to a costume with a ripped crotch.).
But there are other reasons one can seem so awkward and earthbound.
One is weight (but our instructor at the time was pretty hefty and had the
fasted feet I've ever seen), and another is the shoes themselves. If I don't
get the proper "response" from my shoes/boots, then it seems I can't feel
the floor anymore. Similar to tennis players with a raquet that feels bad
or the wrong size grip.
Practing in front of full length mirrors helps, particularly if
one makes a conscious effort to notice how one's dancing is differing from
someone else's.
-James
cba...@vaxa.strath.ac.uk
What fascinates me is, is he EVER going to improve? I know this may sound
kind of crass but I'm curious (being a new dancer myself).
I think that the answer to this is "wait and see". Over the years at the
Smiffs, we've had many people join who were crap dancers & they adjusted quite
quickly. But there are some who just can't do it. Hunky Dunky took six years
before he was allowed to wear kit & even by his own acknowledgement is at best
a mediocre performer. However, he enjoys it and is a fine fellow to have
around (fat, bald & a sweetie), which are the most important things.
'Smiff in exile
Ranko
Denys Proteau
dancers by Kathleen Hu...@carson.u.w
> you just dance with them resignedly, or do you attempt to gently show
>them how
> to improve, or subtly model for them or guide them in some way? And do
> they eventually get better, or not?
>
Well this is nothing specific to dance. It can apply to almost any
social thing; just replace the word awkward with slow, fast, small,
large, etc. etc. Almost everybody doesn't "fit in" very well in some
way at some time(s) in their lives, or we may even be(come) a burden to
the other people around us. I don't know really what the answer to your
question is, except that alot of times the things we might be tempted to
do to "help" or to "correct" the situation might not really be as much
of our business as we think it is or might make matters worse.
My Motto is that the usefulness of advice is inversely proportional
to how long it takes to give it.
Fortunatly in the case of dance, things aren't usually so serious.
Alot of times in dance we can help each other with certain things, but
practice and personal observation make more difference than the advice
that people usually give. I think that advice for dancing does work
effectively though in cases where you already know that a person is
capable of performing certain bodily actions but just doesn't know they
should. Good examples are to provide tension in swings or ways to hold
hands in line dances when teaching beginners. Maintaining certain good
postures is something that most people are capable of but some times
overlook, and even that isn't so bad if it's just a sign of
concentrating hard on other things. Once a person starts to be able to
do a figure with less effort, if they've fallen in habit of holding poor
posture then maybe that kind of thing is good to give advice on.
However, even these types of advice can be bad if given at the wrong
time, or if offered to someone who has been dancing a while and simply
disagrees.
In this particular case, since you say
>he can learn the
>patterns of footwork. But he still looks awkward. Why?? It seems that
>he somehow never bends at the hip, or resists hopping clear of the >ground,
>or puts his feet down very flat-footed.
I tend to think that this person simply tends to do ANY athletic or
dance motions in an unusual and awkward looking way. There is no one
short comment you could make that would actually help him. Even if he
saw himself on videotape, he probably could not figure out why he looks
and moves that way without a great deal of study. Instead, he'd
probably experience the same type of uncomfortable feeling most people
have when we hear ourselves on tape or see ourselves on video. I'm not
saying that he can't change the way he moves, but I am saying that if
you want to help with this type of thing you might have to be more of a
coach than a fellow dancer.
For some difficult dances, particularly couples dances, I have
learned them with a lot of coaching, but it was coaching that I invited.
I know that I feel pretty yucky when someone starts telling me all
sorts of things I could or should do differently, especially if I'm at a
dance trying to have fun and not at a teaching session. Double
especially if what I'm told is something that I already know but can't
"fix" easily and doesn't hurt anyone else.
Here your post describes a situation where someone who doesn't dance
well or is a beginner and does have a strong negative effect on dance
enjoyment for everyone else:
>'Specially on those few dances with a leader on the right but where the >tail
>on the left has to pull the line to the left...sometimes the tail doesn't
>realize this, and the line starts to smush up into a wall, unless a person
>2 or 3 from the tail takes it upon themselves to *shove* the 1 or 2 tail
>people to the left and *haul* the line along..
I think that for some dances like this, it is acceptable to drop out
of the line and join on again at the end. But you've got to be willing
to face the 2nd grade politics that might ensue...:
"Oh. So she doesn't want to dance near me. Well then I don't want to
dance near her."
Hmmm. I was just kidding a moment ago when I wrote the line above, but
maybe this happens!
Denys
Denys Proteau
Were you talking about me?
I guess not cause I don't THINK I know you.
Denys
Beth Kevles
What a terrific question! As someone who has been teaching beginners
for a number of years, let me offer the following observations:
Most awkward beginners who dance regularly, and care about the dancing
itself (as opposed to just the social milieu) improve. I can think of
only two people who, despite dancing weekly, didn't eventually become a
pleasure to dance near. One of these two has neurological problems; the
other has an attitude. A number of the beginners took as much as two to
three years to stop LOOKING awkward, though. And many dancers' abilities
eventually plateau. In order to continue improving, most people will
eventually need the kind of feedback that comes from dancing in front of
a mirror, having partners tell you about giving weight (or whatever) or
joining a performance group.
THere are a number of things that I do when I'm trying to help newer
dancers. I'll move out of my current place in lane, go to the end (the
squashed place) or butt into a group of beginners and gently yank/pull
and call the steps out loud. I've been known to hunt out beginners for
the easier couples dances so I can help them through it. And I offer
lots of unsolicited advice, such as "Write down the names of the dances
you like -- they're listed here -- and request them. And do them when
they come up!" Or "Try dancing behind the line. See that guy? He's a
good person to watch, he always knows the steps." Other good advice to
hand out includes:
- try this dance; it's accessble
- this is a hard dance, to don't worry if you have trouble
- skip the turns until you get some of the steps.
- relax your shoulders!
- hold tighter to the waist/shoulderblades so I (partner) know
you're there.
My goal is to make social dnacing a pleasant and safe place to be. And
it works, because most people DO improve. Some of the unlikeliest ...
--Beth Kevles
international, israeli, contra
John Macdonald
|
|One thing I have started to do when I'm next to a truly rotten dancer is to
|make my cues a little stronger (harsher?) I haul him around more (e.g. on
|dances that go forward & back, or some such).
What I would suggest is that your mental image is that of making
your cues *clearer* rather than stronger. The only problem
with this is if it is too obvious, then it might be taken as
patronizing rather then helpful. The best approach is to
be clearly expecting the right action in a way that (apparently
incidently) helps to remind the person what that right action
will be.
You can use your body language to show that you are preparing
to move in a particular direction well in advance of actually
carrying out the movement. Things like swinging the free foot
around a touch early when you are changing direction, for example.
(But try to avoid actually the movement itself early - that makes
it hard for the person to recognize the timing.) Another cue is
to let the joined hand pass the information that you are shifting
your weight in preparation - this does not need to be a push,
just a clear demonstration of intent to help them know what is
coming (some dance cry out for this - is this the 7 steps to the
right and then into the centre or is it the 5 steps to the right,
a stamp, and then go left figure of the dance?). In many dances,
eye contact is far and away the best tool for displaying intended
motion (and it's fun, too :-).
One pleasure that can come from this approach is having someone
do a dance just right and come off the floor feeling good about
it without any idea that they were being helped - it just seems
to be a good day when everything happened to "click" at the right
time. That feeling can lead them to real learning and improvement.
--
That is 27 years ago, or about half an eternity in | John Macdonald
computer years. - Alan Tibbetts | j...@Elegant.COM
Jonathan Sivier
A few months ago I put together a list of suggestions for experienced
dancers to help them assist beginners in learning and improving. This was
done for our local contra dance group, but I think some of the ideas pertain
to all forms of dance (other activities as well).
Tips For Experienced Dancers Dancing With Beginners
Dancing well with beginners is a skill separate from being able to dance
well with other experienced dancers. The only way to learn, of course, is to
practice, so try to dance with at least one new person at each dance. Many of
these tips are also good advice when dancing with experienced dancers, but they
are particularily important when dancing with beginners.
1. Smile
2. Make eye contact.
3. Show the other people you enjoy dancing with them.
4. Help the beginners have fun. Remember that's what we're here for.
5. Don't push, pull, point or shout, that's rude.
6. Make your leads part of the dance (i.e. use a sweeping motion of your arm
and perhaps a small bow to indicate a person should precede you in a given
direction).
7. Lead your partners gently by the hand.
8. Hold your hand out clearly for them to take (as on allemandes and right
and left across).
9. Men, gently place the womans hand where it needs to be for stars and chains.
10. Women, help your partners end swings in the correct direction.
11. Tap your shoulder (the one to be pass by) on heys, etc.
12. Don't do extra twirls and spins. The beginners look to you for example,
you may know where you need to be next and which way to be facing, but
they don't. Let them get the basics before trying to add flourishes.
13. Swing gently, many beginners are affected by dizziness at first.
14. Dance smoothly, show them how it's done.
15. Don't get upset at them when mistakes are made. Everyone makes mistakes
from time to time, even you!
16. Encourage and acknowledge the real efforts the beginners are making.
17. Communicate acceptance and affirmation as much as possible.
18. Communicate willingness to answer questions about the routine or any
aspect of the dance.
19. If the new person has obvious difficulty with something in particular,
simply ask, do you mind if I show you?
20. Refrain from forcing any issue.
These are just a few which have been suggested to me and which I have
added to from my own experiences. Please let me know of any additions you
may have and I will add them to the list. Hopefully, if we can incorporate
some of these skills into our dancing, then beginner's first contra dance
experience will be that much more enjoyable. Remember, the true mark of an
advanced dancer is being able to dance with anyone, no matter what their skill
level may be, and have them all enjoy the experience equally.
I hope people find this of use.
Jonathan
-------------------------------------------------------------------
| Jonathan Sivier | Ballo ergo sum. |
| jsi...@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu | (I dance therefore I am.) |
| Flight Simulation Lab | - des Cartwright |
| Beckman Institute | |
| 405 N. Mathews | SWMDG - Single White Male |
| Urbana, IL 61801 | Dance Gypsy |
| Work: 217/244-1923 | |
| Home: 217/359-8225 | Have shoes, will dance. |
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Dan Breslau
jes...@carson.u.washington.edu (Kathleen Hunt) wrote:
>
>
> There's a guy at the group I dance with who is, how can I put this, not the
> most incredibly coordinated person in the world. For some reason this
> fascinates me -- every now and then I try to figure out exactly what it
> is that he is or isn't doing. *Why* does he look so awkward? He's
> been dancing a lot in the past year and has actually improved a whole lot,
> and he knows some pretty complex Balkan dances now. So he can learn the
> patterns of footwork. But he still looks awkward. Why?? It seems that
> he somehow never bends at the hip, or resists hopping clear of the ground,
> or puts his feet down very flat-footed. He seems very earthbound. What
> fascinates me is, is he EVER going to improve? I know this may sound kind
> of crass but I'm curious (being a new dancer myself)...I know that for a
> lot of slow learners, they are just that, *slow* learners, *not* non-learners,
> and given enough time they *do* learn and are eventually as good as the
> fast learners. (Thank god, or there are lots of things I'd've never learned)
>
> But does he KNOW what he looks like?
[...]
True confession time...
I've been contra dancing for about 15 years now, and I guess I'm pretty
good
at it. I used to swing well enough, in fact, that I'd often draw
unsolicited,
enthusiastic praise from partners. ("Used to" because I'm not dancing
enough
these days, unfortunately, to be *that* good anymore.)
Nevertheless, I'm in the category of folks Kathleen describes. Probably
not as
bad as this fellow, but awkward nonetheless. And no, I'm not usually aware
of
how bad I look -- in fact, there have been times when I'd thought I was
doing
quite well, only to see myself on tape later and get brought down to
earth...
My trouble seems to be a below-average body sense -- "kinesthetics", I
think
it's called. My wife, an occupational therapist (and a real fine dancer!),
has
helped me somewhat by giving me some slow-motion lessons, where she'd
actually
bend my trunk, limbs, etc the way she thought I should be moving. This was
fascinating to me, as it involved some movements I really had never thought
of doing (especially in the trunk, which seems to be part of this fellow's
problem as well.) This kind of "dance therapy" might be what this other
fellow needs as well; that is, someone to actually move him physically into
the right movements. Of course, that's probably not a job for a casual
acquaintance -- it involves a lot of time, patience, and more physical
contact
than even most dancing entails.
Dan Breslau
da...@corp.logica.com
Freude!
Peter Renzland
>jes...@carson.u.washington.edu (Kathleen Hunt) writes:
>|
>|One thing I have started to do when I'm next to a truly rotten dancer is to
>|make my cues a little stronger (harsher?) I haul him around more (e.g. on
>|dances that go forward & back, or some such).
>What I would suggest is that your mental image is that of making
>your cues *clearer* rather than stronger.
John then gives a number of very useful and positive hints about how to be really
helpful in subtle ways. Not only are gentle, subtle hints more effective, but
there are clear dangers in being coercive in our assistance.
One reason why it might not be so wise to apply more coercive force to
"truly rotten" dancers is that these dancers will then experience
this higher level of harshness, especially from the "better" dancers,
and the moment they gain a little confidence, watch out. We have now
created an awkward dancer with a strong lead.
Another caveat is that awkward dancers may reciprocate what they might
perceive as aggressive force. For example, they may be trailing behind the
musical phrase, and you "help" them get around in time, but unless they are
aware of what phrasing is, and that they're oblivous to it (:-) they may not
feel helped, but just interfered with, and may resist or resent this help.
An awkward dancer with an attitude.
One more thing to think about. Often a dancer knows exactly what to do.
But they may not yet have the control to do it all together at the right
time. Or they may make a mistake, and they will know exactly what mistake
they made the moment they made it. Or they may know what to do, prepare (with
confidence and control) to do the right thing at the critical moment, and
just at the instant of execution, an (un)official leader barks at them or
otherwise commands their attention (away) and they mess up. A dancer may
not need external help. He may just need enough peace to access and
implement his inner knowledge of what to do.
I've experienced each of these three effects here in Toronto.
(I'm told that I have the kind of temperament that loathes having to say
things that go without saying, such as: This is not a personal attack on
Kathleen!:-)
--
Peter Renzland <pe...@renzland.org> +1 416 323-1300 EntP | Je danse |
Mail or finger da...@renzland.org for Toronto Dance Schedule |donc je suis|
Charles L Rapport
is improving. Something specific, like the dance feeling more
comfortable and pleasurable with the person now giving weight.
I would not recommend kidding them, however....
Andrea L Majewska
don't really deal with the question about the perpetually awkward. As to
whether there's "hope" for such a person, my personal
experience/observation is that over the course of about 4 years an
average interested person will progress from being an awkward beginner to
a good, competent dancer. When more than that amount of time has passed
there's a pretty good chance that the person just doesn't have some of
the innate talent/ability needed. (I've been writing longhand for 35
years now, and still haven't gotten any good at it - there are just some
things we're good at and some we aren't! [Thank heaven for keyboards!])
It's true that some people learn slower or more quickly, but if obvious
progress isn't visible after that kind of time it's pretty safe to assume
it won't happen. - At least not with out some really special attention,
such as that described by the fellow whose wife was an expert in such things.
How to deal with it is harder, especially in a contra dance setting. I
can say, as a relatively small woman with some encroaching physical
problems, dealing with a larger awkward man can be not only unpleasant,
but sometimes actively painful. Avoidance is easier in an international
dance setting. Shall I suggest that you take up international instead? :-)
Good luck...
Andrea
Toby Koosman
> Tips For Experienced Dancers Dancing With Beginners
It's rude to point? I point people at the direction they need to go often.
I do it because it's a nonverbal, noncoercive gesture--that is, it saves me
from having to shout, push or pull.
>
>9. Men, gently place the womans hand where it needs to be for stars and chains.
And then--let go. I find that this technique unfortunately encourages the
"pile on" star (for those of us whose standard is hands across), because the
well intentioned man keeps holding her hand in place. He should lead her
hand to where the diagonal person is waiting to take it, then let go and take
his diagonal's hand.
>11. Tap your shoulder (the one to be pass by) on heys, etc.
>
But don't point to it?
Toby Koosman koo...@utkvx.utk.edu
University of Tennessee
Knoxville, Tennessee USA
Mark McWiggins
>On the reverse note, since I started dancing I have noticed that it is now a
>*real* turn-on when I see a guy who really dances well. Zipping around out
>there with flashy, crisp leg-lifts and neat, smooth movements and boots
>flying. *sigh* *drool*
Yes, I have noticed this from both directions ... I've become embarrasingly
judgmental, associating dance ability with general competence/desirableness;
also I notice that I'm getting 110% more interest from female dancers
since my own ability in swing dance has progressed from "brow-knit-what-the-
heck-do-I-do-next" to "deeply-imprinted-can-carry-on-a-conversation-at-the-
same-time." :-)
This makes sense, though, as we're of course judging one another all the
time in whatever arena we're involved in. Dance is so wrapped up with
sexuality (where else can most modern Westerners so freely touch one
another? "Swing your neighbor!") that it no doubt exerts a greater
impact on the older juicier parts of our brains than do more abstract
realms like work.
Intellectually I know that dance ability doesn't correlate with any other
virtue, but *viscerally* an excellent dance partner, oh, my.
--
Mark McWiggins Hermes & Associates +1 206 632 1905 (24 hrs.)
ma...@hermes.com Box 31356, Seattle WA 98103 +1 206 632 1738 (fax)
Andrea L Majewska
dancer. I made the embarrassing observation that he was far better
looking on nights when we went out dancing than on nights when, say, we
just had dinner together. Fortunately the observation led me to examine
more closely and I realized that he was really not the man for me.
His good dancing had me snowed for a while though! It certainly is a
courtship activity.