Compensation for Contra bands/callers?
Joseph M. Izen
their local contra bands and callers. I!ve been on all sides of this since
I!ve organized dances, played in bands, and I dance myself. Just want
to check whether I!m deluding myself that my experiences are typical
before broaching this subject again locally. Thanks, and by all means
reply via email if this is at all sensitive.
I am aware, for example that dances in the midwest probably operate a bit
differently from those on either coast. I don!t plan to compare apples
with oranges, but I do want to count the pits.
-Joe Izen
Where is your dance? What is the admission charge, and typically, how
many people come (if you know).
What would your dance typically pay a local, 3 piece band that performs
regularly for your dances? Is there a set amount? If it is a fraction
of the door, what formula do you use, and is there a guaranteed minimum?
If your answer is a formula, what would the band be paid for a typical dance,
and what would you estimate as the range?
Please answer the same questions for a local caller.
Does the dance pay the caller and band separately, or does the dance provide
a lump sum and ask the caller and band to work out the split themselves.
leda shapiro
In a previous article, j...@utdallas.edu (Joseph M. Izen) says:
>I!d like to do a spot check of of how various dance groups are compensating
>their local contra bands and callers. I!ve been on all sides of this since
>I!ve organized dances, played in bands, and I dance myself. Just want
>to check whether I!m deluding myself that my experiences are typical
>before broaching this subject again locally. Thanks, and by all means
>reply via email if this is at all sensitive.
>
>I am aware, for example that dances in the midwest probably operate a bit
>differently from those on either coast. I don!t plan to compare apples
>with oranges, but I do want to count the pits.
>
I do not have a problem telling you how most of our dances are run,
including how callers/bands are paid. I am aware of differences , and
that it depoends a lot on the structure (or lack thereof) that the
community has and their philosophy about such things..there are great
differences of course..
this is what most of us do.
Our dances are in the greater Los Angeles area. We charge $6 for
admission, and get between 40-100 dancers depending on the
night(typically weeknight dances draw lesser numbers than the weekends).
We pay 50cents per head to a general fund (for publicity, sound system
maintainance,insurance etc, mutual expenses) rent, and refreshments (our
refreshments are free to dancers).. what remains is usually split evenly
between band/caller. Since our rent vaires from $125 -$200, you can see
how much variance there is. While we do not guarantee musicians/callers
locally, we rarely pay them less than $25 ea.
Losses are usually paid for by dances that get better attendance.
Our average weekend dance is 70-80 dancers. Some dances have sound
people, some dances the musicians do it.. Since there is autonomy , and
each dance runs itself financially, there are some variations in how
callers/bands are paid.. but this is typical. Sound people sometimes
get paid. Dance managers sometimes get paid..depends on how much the
dance is bringing in...
We are aware that callers inother places usually get more than
musicians..we do not pay that way.(.maybe because we are very
"musician" oriented".. and consider them all equally important..not
or maybe because several callers <grin> )
>Does the dance pay the caller and band separately, or does the dance provide
>a lump sum and ask the caller and band to work out the split themselves.
>
We pay the caller and band as individuals.. and get their SS#'s for 1099's
I am very interested in what and why people do it differently in
different areas of the country...and what callers/musicians think about it.
Leda
--
leda shapiro
In a previous article, ac...@lafn.org (leda shapiro) says:
>
>In a previous article, j...@utdallas.edu (Joseph M. Izen) says:
>
>>I!d like to do a spot check of of how various dance groups are compensating
>>their local contra bands and callers. I!ve been on all sides of this since
>>I!ve organized dances, played in bands, and I dance myself. Just want
>>to check whether I!m deluding myself that my experiences are typical
>>before broaching this subject again locally. Thanks, and by all means
>>reply via email if this is at all sensitive.
>>
>>I am aware, for example that dances in the midwest probably operate a bit
>>differently from those on either coast. I don!t plan to compare apples
>>with oranges, but I do want to count the pits.
>>
due to am editi problem the end of this sentence was cut..
I was making a reference to the fact that, coincindetally, we have three
women callers, married to three (different) men musicians... so we all
get paid the same..
>
>>Does the dance pay the caller and band separately, or does the dance provide
>>a lump sum and ask the caller and band to work out the split themselves.
>>
>We pay the caller and band as individuals.. and get their SS#'s for 1099's
>
>I am very interested in what and why people do it differently in
>different areas of the country...and what callers/musicians think about it.
>
>
>Leda
>
>
>--
>
--
Richard Ebling
: I!d like to do a spot check of of how various dance groups are compensating
: their local contra bands and callers.
The Salt Lake City monthly dance is very much a "community dance",
sponsored by the efforts of many dedicated musicians, callers, and
sound people. We haven't gotten the dancers into regular supportive
roles, other than dancing and paying money for the privilege. We have no
regularly paid staff [see below].
The monthly dance in SLC costs $3 to get in ($2 for musicians
w/instruments to sit-in); typically draws 35-60 people (avg =~ 50). The
door is supervised by only a cash bucket (honor system);
people who can't afford to pay are told to come anyway--we always have
some cleanup chores that need willing hands.
The hall costs $50 or $75 per night. Light refreshments (lemonade,
cookies, etc) cost $6-18 per night, and we pay $35 for sound reinforcement
to one fine fellow who likes to use his sound system to amplify & monitor
the band. Another person consistently runs the mixer, throughout the
night. [Obviously, this is far cheaper than the local rate for sound, but
we have connections (he also is our main caller)!]
We spend about $45, 3-4 times per year to mail out announcements for
the dances. The caller-in-chief maintains the mailing list (gratis).
The net income from the dances goes into an account known as "the band
fund"; this is spent on activities that benefit the musicians & callers
(and, indirectly, the dancers):
1. Spring workshop-we have a guest musician/caller come to SLC to do a
one-day workshop (Warren Argo, this year- 2/25/95); this includes a
free-to-anyone beginning callers' workshop, a free band workshop for
musicians who regularly play for the dances, and two dance workshops,
followed by an evening dance. Admission for workshops does not cover
total costs.
2. Summer pick-nic / retreat for the band & callers, where we work out
new tunes, sets, etc, and discuss the direction the dance is taking, etc.
Expense is reimbursed from the band fund.
3. Occasionally we have an afternoon or evening tune session with a hot
musician traveling through SLC; we pay them a pittance for teaching us
new tricks or tunes. This is a direct benefit for "dance band members only".
4. Probably in near future- partially reimburse "dance
missionaries"--musicians /callers who travel to other towns to help start
local contradances, or who play for community benefits/charities/etc.
So, strictly speaking, the answer to the question
: What would your dance typically pay a local, 3 piece band that performs
: regularly for your dances?:
is--"Nothing". The politics that would be unavoidable [in trimming
the 8-10 people to just 3 _paid_ musicians] would probably destroy the
sense of community that we've developed over the years.
However, there is talk of starting a second monthly dance, that would
probably fit ordinary financial procedures (somebody gets paid in real
money to reliably show up and perform).
The bizarre way that we manage this dance is largely due to the fact
that it started on a shoestring budget, with much volunteer work by all.
By the time we started to have any money left over, we had benefited from
the efforts of far too many people, to feel comfortable divvying up the
pot (equity would have resulted in shares of about $3.23 per person). So
we continue to run it on a break-even basis, and those that play or call,
do so for the fun and acclaim inherent in the tasks. Nowadays, we have
8-10 people who regularly play for the dances, and calling is shared by
3-4 callers per night. The musicians play together because they _like_
each other and like playing for dances; the idea of splitting up into
smaller groups for dances would be ludicrous-- especially if the reason
was to divide up cash.
It remains to be seen what will happen if/when a second dance gets
started.
Now, there _are_ times when the caller and musicians get paid for doing
dances. These are the private parties, or dances for organizations that
have a recreation budget. When someone asks for one of those, they're
usually quoted a price of $300-350 for an evening of dance, then haggle.
For a local dance, $30-50 per person is requested; the caller is
paid the same amount as one musician; extra $35-50 is charged for sound
system. Among the current band, there's a prevailing feeling of "If it
suits us to play, we'll play-- if there's little or no money in it, we'll
put that in the communal fund, and if there's enough for $15 or more
each, we'll split it up." The musicians have various 2-4 person sub-groups
that sometimes play for special events, as needed (e.g., klezmer,
folk-singers, scottish country dances, pioneer music, etc).
As noted above--except for the visiting-caller workshops, callers get
paid exactly the same as individual band members.
[The above observations are my best description of current practice in
SLC, for the contradance band. Things change.]
One similar group, the Wasatch Rascals, consists of a very good old-time
string band (4 musicians), who rent a hall and hold an old-time square
dance monthly. They charge $5 or $5.50 per person, provide lemonade &
cookies, and pay a caller to do the dances. I believe their rule is also
"1 caller's share = 1 musician's share", and because they rent a large,
very nice, hall, to accomodate all the dancers, they each net about $8 -
25 per dance, last I heard. And they have a great time.
I'll be interested in hearing about other communities that have
similar pay/non-pay arrangements. And different ones--if there's an
easy way to start a for-profit (ha!) dance while maintaining the
relationships, please send suggestions! Regards,
Rick "will corrupt article threads for tunes" Ebling
Dave Goldman
<j...@utdallas.edu> wrote:
> I!d like to do a spot check of of how various dance groups are compensating
> their local contra bands and callers.
Joe --
Here in Portland OR we've got several dances going on. Some are privately
run, and I can't comment on their algorithms.
Portland Country Dance Community (PCDC) runs two monthly contras.
Admission is $5/$6 (members/non-members). We get 100-200 people, I guess.
The hall rental keeps going up; it's currently around $190 per night. And
we have to pay $100 for a sound person.
Musicians from out of town get travel expenses, depending on distance
($0-$20 per person).
After paying for the hall, sound, and travel, the remainder of the pot is
split into equal "shares". The caller gets a share, each musician gets a
share, and PCDC gets a share. If there are more than 4 musicians in the
band, though, the whole band is limited to 4 shares, to divide amongst
themselves.
If the resulting share amount comes to less than $70, then PCDC pays each
caller and musician $70. If there's anything left, PCDC gets it; otherwise
PCDC is in the hole for the night.
PCDC's income pays for various other events and activities besides the two
monthly contras.
> What would your dance typically pay a local, 3 piece band that performs
> regularly for your dances?
Off the top of my head, I'd guess $210-$300. (Hard to say, because the
pre-1995 rates were a little lower.)
>
> Please answer the same questions for a local caller.
I'd have to guess $70-$100, to be self-consistent! :)
-- Dave Goldman
Nancy Mamlin
leda shapiro <ac...@lafn.org> wrote:
>
>>In a previous article, j...@utdallas.edu (Joseph M. Izen) says:
>>
>>>I!d like to do a spot check of of how various dance groups are compensating
>>>their local contra bands and callers. I!ve been on all sides of this since
>>>I!ve organized dances, played in bands, and I dance myself. Just want
>>>to check whether I!m deluding myself that my experiences are typical
>>>before broaching this subject again locally. Thanks, and by all means
>>>reply via email if this is at all sensitive.
>>>
>>>I am aware, for example that dances in the midwest probably operate a bit
>>>differently from those on either coast. I don!t plan to compare apples
>>>with oranges, but I do want to count the pits.
(Leda's response:)
>>We are aware that callers inother places usually get more than
>>musicians..we do not pay that way.(.maybe because we are very
>>"musician" oriented".. and consider them all equally important..not
>>or maybe because several callers <grin> )
>I was making a reference to the fact that, coincindetally, we have three
>women callers, married to three (different) men musicians... so we all
>get paid the same..
On the other hand: When I was initially running the DC Sunday Night
Dances for the Folklore Society, the callers were getting $20 more than
individual band members. I (a caller) decided to raise the minimum we
were paying the band members by $20 each so that now everyone on stage
gets the same amount of money. (That was my proudest accomplishment as
Dance Chair; second was starting to hire sound people.)
Briefly the formula is as follows: The minimum for the caller and for each
band member (up to four) is $75 each. The sound person gets $50. Rent in
the winter location is $320, so the minimum does get paid every now and
then. Rent at Glen Echo (National Parks Service being a great deal- your
tax dollars at work!) is 20% of the take at the door. The Folklore
Society takes some token amount off the top ($10?) and after all that is
paid, the Society takes 25% and gives the remaining 75% to the folks on
stage to split evenly (or really however they want to).
Typically people make right around $100, but since you're paid based on
attendance, it can vary. Paul Levitt - correct or add to this information!
>>We pay the caller and band as individuals.. and get their SS#'s for 1099's
This is done at the DC dances, too. However, it was always my goal not to
have anyone get a 1099 since that would mean I was spreading the work
around. I think only a few folks (like 3) got them last year.
>>I am very interested in what and why people do it differently in
>>different areas of the country...and what callers/musicians think about it.
New hat: a caller and musician that goes to different parts of the
country: I don't really care how bands and callers are paid as long as it
is *clear* beforehand how it will be done. The best way is with a written
contract, but verbal is just as good in places I've worked often enough.
An email note with the agreement is also fine. I'd prefer to be paid by
the same formula as everyone else if it's a regular dance series- that is,
I think local musicians and callers shouldn't be taking pay cuts so that I
can travel somewhere and call (or vice versa). Travel money is nice, but
can get complicated. If I know what the money will be - or approximately
what it will be and how it will be figured- ahead of time, I can make a
decision about whether or not I wish to come and call the dance. One
particular dance that springs to mind was the time about 100 people showed
up at a dance and I only made $25 at the end of the evening. I'd made
twice that much at that same dance with similar attendance in the past.
What happened was they changed the formula and didn't tell me- and the
dance organizer was in the band!
I could go on about this, but won't. (But it's so much more interesting
than the dissertaion that beckons me.)
Nancy Mamlin
currently residing near Asheville, NC
--
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Launchpad is an experimental internet BBS. The views of its users do not
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SamiFidler
: I!d like to do a spot check of of how various dance groups are
compensating
: their local contra bands and callers.
Here in Hoboken, we have a small square/contra dance, just entering our
second year as a monthly dance. We started sporadically, a few years
ago,doing dances two or three times a year because there were musicians
and callers around who thought it would be a fun thing to do. We went
monthly... well who knows why we did it. We average 24-30 people, a
large number of them beginning dancers , at $ 5.00 a head( the price is
going up to $6.00 as of the January dance) - we've had as few as none
(the band, caller and I split the cost of the room ourselves- $50.00 -
and had a very pleasant jam session) and as many as 60 (which is about the
maximum capacity for the back room of the Shannon Lounge, where we hold
the dances)
The band (usually 4 pieces - fiddle, guitar, banjo and bass) and caller
used to get even shares after the room costs were deducted - liquid
refreshments other than water are available for a price at the bar in
front. Recently, I've started taking a share to cover the out of pocket
costs for mailings, fliers, and other publicity. I supply the sound
system (which I bought second hand and store in my studio) and the bands
provide their own microphones and pickups and sound expertise (although
I'm reading Bob Mills booklet and hope to learn how someday myself).
Friends contribute home baked goodies, when they remember and have the
time, and show up, -sometimes we sell them on the honor system for a
nominal cost, sometimes we forget to make a sign and they are devoured
gratis.
Callers call mostly squares, a few contras, and all are asked to have
dances including odd numbers of people - there are the nights when we have
9 or ten people show up- and all of them(the callers) exhibit courage
,fortitude, ingenuity and the ability to dance while they are calling when
needed.
My hope is that we will develop a steady crowd of 40 or fifty people- most
of whom know how to dance -, cover expenses, be able to pay the musicians
and callers a little bit regularly, and all have some fun.
Sami
Marlin Prowell
> I'd like to do a spot check of of how various dance groups are compensating
> their local contra bands and callers.
>
> Where is your dance? What is the admission charge, and typically, how
> many people come (if you know).
In Bellingham, Washington, a town of about 60,000, we have three dances a
month. We average about 85 dancers per dance, although that can range
from 45 to one night when we had 140! We charge $4.50 per person.
> What would your dance typically pay a local, 3 piece band that performs
> regularly for your dances? Is there a set amount? If it is a fraction
> of the door, what formula do you use, and is there a guaranteed minimum?
> If your answer is a formula, what would the band be paid for a typical dance,
> and what would you estimate as the range?
We have eight(!) local bands, and 4 local callers. Since our first two
(and longest lived) bands have four musicians each, we guarantee a
minimum, so that the larger bands still get compensated fairly. I used to
think we had quite a complicated formula, but after reading some of the
replies from other communitites, I see that ours is only slight more
complicated :-)
Our formula:
1) Take out fixed expenses
sound ($45) we have two local sound men who provide their own
equipment
hall (~$60) but going up this year
mailing expenses (~$15) we mail a calender to 500 people 3 times a year
2) Pay everyone a minumum $45. For everyone from out of town, pay $10
more for travel expenses.
3) If there is anything left over, split it between the performers and the
dance society. The extra taken by the dance society is used to cover
the nights when we pay the minimum but don't collect enough at the door.
> Please answer the same questions for a local caller.
>
> Does the dance pay the caller and band separately, or does the dance provide
> a lump sum and ask the caller and band to work out the split themselves.
The caller is considered one of the musicians, and receives a share equal
to one musician.
So, a three piece band averages about $150-$180 (ignoring travel), and a
caller averages $50-60.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marlin Prowell | There is a very thin line between ignorance and arrogance
m...@janus.com | and I have totally obliterated that line. -- Dr. Science
Brian Rost
thread. I've worked both as a dance organizer and as musician, and
except at the "best" dances, $70-75 per musician and caller would
bankrupt many of the dances I've been at.
For instance at the Worcester, MA dances, we were averaging 40-50
people a month, at $5 a head that comes to $200-250 (BTW, the
organizers continue to pay their own admissions...otherwise, the take
would be $30-40 less!!!). Finish the math yourself 8^( I no longer am
involved in organizing this dance, and they have gone to guarantees
and more expensive talent. I wish them luck; if they succeed in
getting more dancers by using big-name callers and bands, the gamble
will be worth it. Otherwise, they will just bankrupt themselves.
Another dance I worked at in Medway, MA was paying the entire band
$100 (not sure what the caller got; by the way the band was 20
pieces!!!) and is currently deep in debt because of paying even such a
small guarantee.
I wouild agree that at dances averaging 100 or more dancers, it
becomes feasible to pay the talent serious money, but at smaller
dances giving high guarantees just isn't practical. If economics are
the driving factor, then small dances deserve to die out, I guess. If
trying to keep dancing going is the driving factor, then having the
talent work for less $$$ to keep the small dances going is really
important.
Just the other side of the coin from someone in the less glamorous
trenches.
--
Brian Rost
Ascom Timeplex APBU
rost_...@timeplex.com
********************************************************
"None of my women have to hit me to let me know they're there"
********************************************************
Nancy Mamlin
Brian Rost <ro...@nutshell.maelstrom.timeplex.com> wrote:
>Wow, I couldn'e believe some of the fees being mentioned in this
>thread. I've worked both as a dance organizer and as musician, and
>except at the "best" dances, $70-75 per musician and caller would
>bankrupt many of the dances I've been at.
I think your situation is more typical.
>involved in organizing this dance, and they have gone to guarantees
>and more expensive talent. I wish them luck; if they succeed in
>getting more dancers by using big-name callers and bands, the gamble
>will be worth it. Otherwise, they will just bankrupt themselves.
I don't know if it would really be worth it or not. There's something to
be said for using your local talent. I think it makes for better dancers
and a greater sense of community in the long run.
>Another dance I worked at in Medway, MA was paying the entire band
>$100 (not sure what the caller got; by the way the band was 20
>pieces!!!) and is currently deep in debt because of paying even such a
>small guarantee.
A couple of dances I've done this past year have told me that either
they've had to go to a lower guaruntee or no guaruntee. THere's also a
dance I do annually that pays the caller to come in, but has so many
*great* local musicians that they only give the band a pittance. There's
some flawed logic in this, but everyone seems happy with the arrangement,
and, as I said, as long as everyone understands it in advance, there
shouldn't be a problem.
>I wouild agree that at dances averaging 100 or more dancers, it
>becomes feasible to pay the talent serious money, but at smaller
>dances giving high guarantees just isn't practical. If economics are
>the driving factor, then small dances deserve to die out, I guess. If
>trying to keep dancing going is the driving factor, then having the
>talent work for less $$$ to keep the small dances going is really
>important.
Absolutely.
Nancy Mamlin
Susan Lawlor
> I!d like to do a spot check of of how various dance groups are compensating
> their local contra bands and callers.
>
> many people come (if you know).
I am a member of the house band for a dance in Norfolk, VA. We
play for a monthly contra dance which is mid-way through it's
second year of existance. Here, the band and the dance organization are
considered separate entities, with the caller falling somewhere
in the middle.
Admission in $5 per person (was $4 the first year). Generally
between 50 and 70 people attend, though we have had as many as
100.
>
> What would your dance typically pay a local, 3 piece band that performs
> regularly for your dances? Is there a set amount? If it is a fraction
> of the door, what formula do you use, and is there a guaranteed minimum?
> If your answer is a formula, what would the band be paid for a typical dance,
> and what would you estimate as the range?
>
Until I read some of the other responses to this query, I
thought we had a rather complicated arrangement, which is as
follows:
Out of whatever is taken in at each dance $35 is pulled for the
hall rental (we have a *great* hall arrangement with a local
college). $50 goes into the dance kitty to be used for
mailings, advertisements, refreshments, etc. This money is
also being used to pay off a no-interest loan that an anonymous
benefactor made so that the group (the dancers, not the band)
could buy a sound system. The remaining money is split between
the dance, which gets 15% and the "talent" (band & caller)
which gets 85%.
However (this is where it gets confusing) That 85% is further
broken down into an 80/20 split, the caller gets 20% and the
band gets 80% to divide among the members (5 to 7 people). The
way this is all worked out up front is that the band receives 68%
of the profits (after rent & kitty) and the caller receives 17%
Some background: We worked the percentages out based on a
typical dance's income so that the band members could expect at
least $20 each. We felt that the caller should be paid twice
what the band members get. Also, the band did not want to be
involved in hiring and negotiating with callers, that's why we
worked out the 68/17% deal, so each could be paid separately.
It took us quite a while to get this all figured out, but has
been working well. We do have a written contract/agreement
which (I think) is used when hiring callers, and could be used
if the group ever wanted to hire a different band.
--
Susan Lawlor at VLIN - Virginia Library Network
c/o Virginia State Library and Archives
sla...@leo.vsla.edu
Dan Pearl
Dates: Almost every Thursday night
Admission Fee: $5
Average crowd: median 180
Other expenses: Overhead $30, Sound $30, Hall $300.
We start with a liberal guarantee for performers, plus a liberal bonus.
The formula is too complicated to remember (it is programmed into a
programmable calculator), but on a typical night, performers take home
$100-$125 each.
Bands larger than 3 are paid somewhat more, but each individual would take
home less money.
For people travelling a distance (over, say 2 hours), we throw in an
additional $10 per person.
If the crowd is over 200, all the additional admission money goes to the
performers (to acknowledge that their fame probably brought out the dancers).
If the crowd is under 160, we will gladly go in the hole, because we feel
that the low attendance is due to some external factor (weather, breaking
news, etc.).
Our dance was forced to relocate to a smaller hall for the next two weeks,
but we will pay our band as if the average attendance number of people
were there.
The pay scale is the same for all (local/distant, unknown/famous).
When we have a caller/band combo apply to us, we pay the representative
the entire amount. If we have contracted for the band and caller separately,
we start from the assumption of an equal split for all and discuss with
the performers any deviation. If a caller is paired up with a band with
more than three members, the caller will be paid as if the band were just
three members.
No one has ever complained to us (or anyone else, to the best of our
knowledge) that our pay policy is unfair.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dan Pearl ** Stratus Computer, Inc. ** pe...@sw.stratus.com
Stephen M. Hodges
Here in lil'ol Tallahassee, we charge $5/head, roughly average
60-70/night, and pay out $50 for the hall (no heat or AC, though), $60
for in-town bands, $30 for in-town callers, $25 for refreshments, and
$85 for sound (Jon's kind of got the franchise there). Out-of-town
talent is negotiated separately, and if it's a really expensive band
and/or caller, we have adjusted the price accordingly in the past.
We use extra proceeds to do mailings, pay liability insurance, cover
dances that lose $, and pay for occasional other things. We probably
need to pay the musicians more, but we have an abundance of those, and
only one sound person. Supply and demand. Speaking as a musician, I
don't mind playing for gas money, as it is my contribution to the
community. I certainly park up front, though!
Toby Koosman
'special' dances. We collect via the honor system and we hope no one stays
home because they don't have the three or four bucks. Typical attendance is
30-50 people. Not everybody pays; some folks are short the cash, others are
just jerks. I think we take in $80-100 on a typical night.
We pay local bands a minimum of $50 for three or more musicians, $40 for
two musicians. The caller gets $15. Anything left over is split per capita
among caller and musicians. Our other expenses are paid for out of profits
from the annual dance weekend. For many years we took in less than we paid
out on a regular basis, and we still lose on out-of-town bands.
(I personally think musicians should be paid as well or better than callers.
Having done both, I can testify that it does not require daily practice over a
period of years to call dances, as it does to play music.)
Toby Koosman tako...@utkvx.utk.edu
University of Tennessee
Knoxville, Tennessee USA
Jonathan Sivier
>I've enjoyed dancing in several cities, but I've noticed that places which
>pay a flat rate tend to collect 2 piece bands. I have nothing against
>duo's
>but I would like to see them happen on artistic/musical grounds. All
>other
>things being equal, I think a dance benefits from having a fuller sound
>with
>more musicians. I prefer a flat rate per musician, up to say 5 people.
>In my experience as a dancer and as a musician, its hard to keep larger
>bands sounding crisp and driving, and that detracts from the dance.
Joe,
As far as I know things are pretty much the same here in CU. $20 per
person up to $100 for local bands, $20 for local callers, $50 per person up
to $150 for out-of-town bands and $50 for out-of-town callers. The out-of-town
rates get renegotiated quite often on a case by case basis, but that's the
starting point. If we ever started to make money I'd be interested in
considering the garaunteed minimum plus a fraction of the gate that people
have been talking about.
Jonathan
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David Woolf
150 people at our weekly dance. We charge $4 for local bands and $5 for
out-of-town bands.
Our policy for paying bands is very simple and, as far as I know, unique:
We pay a flat $200 to local bands and $35 to local callers. It doesn't
matter what we take in or how many members the band has. The feeling
as been that we are paying the **group** that is providing the music, not
the individuals. We have 6 bands that range in size from 2 to 6. So the
2-person band gets $100 apiece, the four-piece bands get $50 each and
the six-piece bands get $33 each. Incidentally, we call the payment an
honorarium which is both more accurate and in keeping with the spirit of
the dance.
I would like to know if anyone else pays this way and what is your opinion
of it?
Out-of-town bands get paid 80% of the evening net (usually the gross
minus about $270-300 in weekly fixed costs). They get a minimum
guarantee of $300 and we set a maximum (we call it a cap) of $400.
Again, the size of the band is not a consideration. Part of the thought
behind the cap has been that our primary commitment is to our local
dance community and we do not want to become known as one of the big
paying dances on the contra touring circuit. We don't really have a
consistent policy for guest callers; it doesn't come up very often.
There have only been two out-of-town bands in the last five years where
we have made exceptions to this policy - the exception being that there's
no cap. (You could probably guess who.)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
David Woolf <dwo...@unix.cc.emory.edu> Emory Eye Center
W - 404/248-4121 Emory University
H - 404/355-2827 Atlanta, GA 30322
Kiran Wagle
Would it be better to learn to do sound ourselves (as dancers or
organisers) and teach other people from the community to do it?
The Bloomington (IN) dance thrived for many years without charging a fixed
admission (we passed the hat) or paying anyone, and I think one of the
reasons was that we were (and presumably still are) always looking for new
people to learn to do all the various parts of the dance, including play
and call. (We have a monthly open band/caller night, for example, which
is 25% of our dances--and even once a month is much more than most
locations with many more dances can claim.)
(Why do they charge admission and pay bands now? Some people feel that
this happened because a large number of new dancers didn't know about a
tradition of some 15 years that did NOT include paying anyone, and were
swayed by the arguments of a few persistent people that paying bands and
callers and charging admission were a good idea.)
As for specifics, last I heard Bloomington paid $15 a person to the caller
and some limited number of band members. Maybe certain of our Bloomington
lurkers could clarify one or both of the above comments?
I seem to remember a few other dances in the Midwest having open and
unpaid bands, but I don't remember details.
~ Kiran <gr...@netcom.com>
Warren Pollans
Palm Beach and Miami). We charge $5 (children free) and ask folks to bring
a snack to share. After taking out about $10 for our "fund", the balance
is split between the dance hall and the band. If we have a real good
attendance the caller (me) gets a few dollars. Most band members have to
travel between 30 minutes and an hour to get to the dance - I live about
about 5 minutes away. Besides, I believe that we dance to the music, not
the caller. When the band is hot, the dancers are too and when they're not
they're not.
Back to the finances. Our dance series is two years old. In that
time, our fund has grown to about $100 (I'm also the treasurer). Our fund
has paid for printing flyers and mailing reminders. We are the northern
wing of the Everglades Old-Time Dance in North Miami so we share flyer and
mailing costs with them. We use the same musicians and caller.
We were very fortunate to have found a place to dance that would settle
for a fixed fraction of a variable gate. They have gotten as little as $30
and as much as $100. Our musicians have told me when I apologized for the
small pay one night - "We're not in it for the money. If we were we'd be
playing somewhere else"
The Miami group operates in a similar manner - possibly holding out a
little more each dance. We typically have 30-50 at our monthly dance
there. Their fund fund occasionally grows to the point where we can afford
to hire a band 2 or 3 times a year.
That's the news from south Florida,
Warren Pollans
Joe Izen
From: David Woolf, dwo...@curly.cc.emory.edu
Date: 3 Jan 1995 21:24:44 GMT
In article <3ecfas$1...@emoryu1.cc.emory.edu> David Woolf,
dwo...@curly.cc.emory.edu writes:
>Our policy for paying bands is very simple and, as far as I know, unique:
>We pay a flat $200 to local bands and $35 to local callers. It doesn't
>matter what we take in or how many members the band has. The feeling
>as been that we are paying the **group** that is providing the music, not
>the individuals. We have 6 bands that range in size from 2 to 6. So the
>2-person band gets $100 apiece, the four-piece bands get $50 each and
>the six-piece bands get $33 each. Incidentally, we call the payment an
>honorarium which is both more accurate and in keeping with the spirit of
>the dance.
>
>I would like to know if anyone else pays this way and what is your
opinion
>of it?
I started this thread, and till now I've been reading the answers and
collecting
them for the board of my local dance. Thanks everyone, (keep the answers
coming) and thanks Bob for posting the results of that survey which is
relevant to this. But since you asked my opinion...
I've enjoyed dancing in several cities, but I've noticed that places which
pay a flat rate tend to collect 2 piece bands. I have nothing against
duo's
but I would like to see them happen on artistic/musical grounds. All
other
things being equal, I think a dance benefits from having a fuller sound
with
more musicians. I prefer a flat rate per musician, up to say 5 people.
In my experience as a dancer and as a musician, its hard to keep larger
bands sounding crisp and driving, and that detracts from the dance.
I like your use of the word honorarium. Thanks for posting. -Joe
Jonathan Sivier
>It amazes me how many people are paying, and paying a lot, for sound people.
>Would it be better to learn to do sound ourselves (as dancers or
>organisers) and teach other people from the community to do it?
This is a very typical reaction about people who do sound (and many other
types of skilled jobs). When it's done well it's transparent and no one
notices, when it's done poorly everyone complains. It looks pretty easy, but
takes alot more skill and experience than you think. It's like doing the hambo.
It looks easy when you watch skilled dancers doing it, but the first time you
try it yourself you find it's much more difficult than it appears. A good
sound person can be as important as the band and caller. If you aren't in
a hall that has great acoustics, and most places are that way these days, then
without good sound quality the music will be muddy and the dancers won't be
able to hear the caller. I'm by no means a skilled sound person, but I've done
it and so know what is involved and how difficult it is. I know some people
who are skilled at doing sound and I know it took them years of working at it
every day to become really good. I'd say it probably takes as much skill and
practice as learning to play an instrument in a band.
In Urbana we don't have the money to pay a sound person, so a small group
of us take turns doing the best we can. As you might expect the sound quality
varies from week to week. When it's not so good some of the dancers complain
and when we try to explain the difficulties their reactions are very similar
to Kiran's, "How hard can that be? You just twiddle some knobs until it
sounds good." They figure that since they can tune their car radio they can
do sound. When you try to tell them about mic and speaker placement, effects
of the shape of the hall and adjusting the differrent frequencies they get that
MEGO (My Eyes Glaze Over) look and walk away. Getting the complainers to
learn to do sound and help out is nigh onto impossible.
MSchway
Wagle) writes:
> It amazes me how many people are paying, and paying a
> lot, for sound people.
> Would it be better to learn to do sound ourselves (as
> dancers or
> organisers) and teach other people from the community
> to do it?
Speaking both as a musician and a sound guy, I can relate. It does seem
inequitable at first. However, you've got to realize that doing sound for
a dance is as close to "trench warfare" as there is in the folk world.
It's not like concert or coffee house sound.
Ambient noise levels require very high gains and the fact that dancers are
(usually) standing up means that the speakers have to be at least 6-7 ft
above the floor in order to be heard at the back of the hall. Bottom
line, a decent (but not overkill) sound system costs in the neighborhood
of $4000-$5000 to put together!! If you were to rent the equipment (but
not an operator) from a music store for an evening, a 5% fee is
normal...that would be $200!! Also, there is wear and tear on the
equipment and it's up to the sound person to maintain the system. This
takes additional $$.
Secondly, it's more than a 4 hour gig to do sound. In my case, it usually
starts about 2PM in the afternoon when I load up my car and ends well past
midnight (or noon the next day when I finally get around to unloading).
At the very least, I'm at the hall 1 hour before the dance starts and
leave 45 min-1 hour after it ends.
In answer to the question, it may be OK to train a member of the dance
community...but it will take time to learn the ropes. It's tricker than
one might imagine to equalize instruments (guitars really *are* hard to
mike) and get a good, intelligible sound. There's more to it then just
knowing where the plugs go! I should think it would take almost a year to
get it down right. Additionally, there's the matter of the equipment
cost. If your community could raise the necessary $4000, then more power
to you!!
Sorry for the length of the post, but I refuse to feel guilty for charging
my usual $45/dance. I'd say that if your community is paying anything
under $80 you're getting a "sweetheart deal".
--Mike Schway
Kiran Wagle
> do sound. When you try to tell them about mic and speaker placement,
> effects of the shape of the hall and adjusting the differrent frequencies
> they get that MEGO (My Eyes Glaze Over) look and walk away. Getting the
> complainers to learn to do sound and help out is nigh onto impossible.
<laugh> True. I hung around acoustic musicians who played live recitals
in small and pleasant halls for far too many years, and I often forget
(though I do know) how complicated these issues are (they affect recorded
music as well.)
But I'd still expect it to be possible for people to learn to do sound
well, just as they may learn to call or play well even though they'd never
done it before discovering the dance.
~ Kiran "<B>My</B> eyes glaze over <I>too!</I>" <gr...@netcom.com>
--
<gr...@netcom.com> 1628 5th St NW Washington DC 20001
<URL:ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/gr/groo/homepage/home.html>
"Elephants are inordinately fond of arrack. The Mandrill prefers
porter and gin, while baboons and hedgehogs demand beer. Other
intemperate vertebrates include the Sooty Mangabey, the Racoon, and the
Horse. Sir Stamfor Raaffles owned a Malayan Sun bear who would drink
only champagne. Very few animals know when they've had enough."
........Will Cuppy, footnote in _How to tell your Friends from the Apes_
Kiran Wagle
> In answer to the question, it may be OK to train a member of the dance
> community...but it will take time to learn the ropes. It's tricker than
This is true of calling, and of playing as well, I think.
> Sorry for the length of the post, but I refuse to feel guilty for charging
> my usual $45/dance. I'd say that if your community is paying anything
I certainly didn't mean to suggest that you (or anyone) feel guilty.
The first dance I danced in was a collaborative activity, and nobody got
paid (as I discussed in another post.) SO it seems to me that just as we
(at least in some places) encourage members of the dance community to take
up playing and calling, we could encourage them to take up running sound
systems as well.
I suppose that by the standard model of how contradances are run, instead
of the oft-criticised and heretical way we used to do things in
Bloomington, this means that one develops sound people from among the
dancers *and then pays them* rather than saving on more expenses and
having one more group of people who don't get paid in anything other than
appreciation. Cultural differences, I guess.
~ Kiran
--
<gr...@netcom.com> 1628 5th St NW Washington DC 20001
<URL:ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/gr/groo/homepage/home.html>
"It's hard to sleep at night when you know that a 10 pound frog from Southern
Cameroon might come and jump on your stomach."--Chas. M. Schultz "Snoopy"
Larry Cusick
The current Fresno Dance started up last year as a house dance (my
home) with no admission and no overhead. The musicians who showed up
was the band--while I called (Incidently, Fresno is blessed with some
very fine musicians). Since the house dances were so
successful, we went to a hall this last September and decided to pay a few
musicians--but other musicians are welcome if they wished to join in.
The dances are once a month, on a saturday evening. Here are the
finances:
Hall Rental: $36 (probably won't last)
Band: $50 (Paid to two designated musicians)
Admission: $3
Caller: $0 (I'm still learning the trade)
Number of Dancers: 20-30 per dance
Larry Cusick
Fresno CA
larry_...@csufresno.edu
PS I would like to know how some of the other dances advertise
Jim Fownes
ro...@nutshell.maelstrom.timeplex.com (Brian Rost) writes:
>
>I wouild agree that at dances averaging 100 or more dancers, it
>becomes feasible to pay the talent serious money, but at smaller
>dances giving high guarantees just isn't practical. If economics are
>the driving factor, then small dances deserve to die out, I guess. If
>trying to keep dancing going is the driving factor, then having the
>talent work for less $$$ to keep the small dances going is really
>important.
>
The riskiness of a small series undertaking to pay guarantees is
a good point. It would seem to set in motion a "grow or die"
feedback cycle, whereas a small dance without guarantees could
be "successful" for many years without the need to grow.
Our monthly dance in Honolulu has taken the no guarantee
approach for 6-7 years. Over the last few, attendance has been
a pretty consistent 40 - 50. We had to change halls to a place
charging $140, so we upped the fee from 3 to $5.00. As it
stands, the band, caller(s) and organizers are running the
show for the love of it, but we occasionally have $5-$10
apiece for musicians and caller. I don't feel much pressure
to grow in size; I hear more requests for variety in
dances or the hope to increase the average ability of the
dancers. The concept of "travel allowance" for out of
town musicians or callers is not realistic of course (although
the possibility of one's vacation becoming tax-deductible
is one we need to explore more!).
Although we are happy in our community doing things ourselves
for the love of it, it does strike me that the larger
communities paying "real" money do allow specialization.
Musicians able to devote most of their time to music
will naturally improve faster and reach much greater heights
than those of us squeezing it in around full-time-plus
spent breadwinning. So, these larger communities are what
make our heroes possible.
Jim
Brian Rost
> We - the Chattanooga Country Dancers in Atlanta, GA - average about
> 150 people at our weekly dance. We charge $4 for local bands and $5 for
> out-of-town bands.
>
> Our policy for paying bands is very simple and, as far as I know, unique:
> We pay a flat $200 to local bands and $35 to local callers.
(deletions)
> Out-of-town bands get paid 80% of the evening net (usually the gross
> minus about $270-300 in weekly fixed costs). They get a minimum
> guarantee of $300 and we set a maximum (we call it a cap) of $400.
The obvious question is what do you do when you turn a profit? Where
does that money go? If weekly expenses are $300, you pay the local
band and caller $235 and you have 150 folks at $4 a head, you end up
with $65 left over. This could add up after a while 8^)
How do people deal with the tax ramifications of running a dance,
particularly when they make money?
--
Brian Rost
Ascom Timeplex APBU
rost_...@timeplex.com
********************************************************
"Pop Pop the Tractor God"
********************************************************
Dave Goldman
Thurlow) wrote:
> To others: if you're paying the sound man, could you make sure to
> mention whether that's for just the talents of the person or for
> all of the gear, too? That is a pretty important consideration.
Our $100 _definitely_ assumes that the sound person provides (and
transports) his/her gear.
-- Dave
Portland, OR
Dave Goldman
ro...@nutshell.maelstrom.timeplex.com (Brian Rost) wrote:
> How do people deal with the tax ramifications of running a dance,
> particularly when they make money?
PCDC is an official non-profit organization (via its connection to CDSS),
so its taxes are governed by standard non-profit rules.
If a dance is run by an individual, then that individual should declare
any profits as regular income. Losses count, too. We're talking Schedule C
here.
-- Dave
MSchway
> > Sorry for the length of the post, but I refuse to feel guilty for
charging
> > my usual $45/dance. I'd say that if your community is paying
anything
> I certainly didn't mean to suggest that you (or anyone) feel guilty.
Kiran, I didn't really mean to imply that I was offended by your original
post. I've been in the same boat where I've played some dances where the
sound guy (not myself) gets more than any of the musicians and/or caller
and my first reaction was: "what the h..." I suppose others have had the
same reaction. I was just trying provide some rationalle behind charging
$$ for sound work.
> The first dance I danced in was a collaborative
> activity, and nobody got
> paid (as I discussed in another post.) SO it seems to
> me that just as we
> (at least in some places) encourage members of the dance
> community to take
> up playing and calling, we could encourage them to take
> up running sound
> systems as well.
My first dance community was the same way (San Diego in the early 70's).
The dances were free, the hall was free and there was no sound system.
There was plenty of volume since the band consisted of 10-15 folks (all of
whom I dearly miss!). The caller called from the dance line and by the
end of the season was complaining about his loss of voice. But I
digress....
Certainly the sound person (as well as the musicians) should have a
feeling for what makes a dance work. Just possessing a knowledge of
equipment and acoustics isn't good enough. It takes a fairly well-trained
ear and the ability to sense how the dancers are faring in order to do an
effective job. Sure, if anybody in the community wants to put in the time
and energy to learn the job, GREAT!!!! The result probably would be
better than hiring out to some R&R techie.
Still, there's that small matter of purchasing the gear in the first
place......
Best:
--Mike Schway
Robert Thurlow
>In Message-ID: <groo-04019...@192.0.2.1>, gr...@netcom.com (Kiran
>Wagle) writes:
> > It amazes me how many people are paying, and paying a
> > lot, for sound people.
>Bottom
>line, a decent (but not overkill) sound system costs in the neighborhood
>of $4000-$5000 to put together!! If you were to rent the equipment (but
>not an operator) from a music store for an evening, a 5% fee is
>normal...that would be $200!! Also, there is wear and tear on the
>equipment and it's up to the sound person to maintain the system.
...
>Sorry for the length of the post, but I refuse to feel guilty for charging
>my usual $45/dance. I'd say that if your community is paying anything
>under $80 you're getting a "sweetheart deal".
Mike, some groups (like the NTTDS) own their own sound equipment,
rather than rent it from anyone, sound guy included. We also have
a committee to move the sound gear, rather than have one person
doing it. There are lots of ways to skin these kinds of cats that
your flat judgement doesn't account for.
To others: if you're paying the sound man, could you make sure to
mention whether that's for just the talents of the person or for
all of the gear, too? That is a pretty important consideration.
Rob T
Harold Hallikainen
>many people come (if you know).
We hold two contra dances a month here in San Luis Obispo.
Admission charge is $5. We are starting a $1 discount for those showing
a student ID. New dancers are given a certificate that lets them into
the next dance free. We also have International Folk Dancing immediately
prior to contra once a month. Admission to that is $2. Those attending
both (IFD and contra) pay $6.
>What would your dance typically pay a local, 3 piece band that performs
>regularly for your dances? Is there a set amount? If it is a fraction
>of the door, what formula do you use, and is there a guaranteed minimum?
>If your answer is a formula, what would the band be paid for a typical dance,
>and what would you estimate as the range?
We have a worksheet that the volunteer dance manager uses to
distribute funds. It has a column for the door income (less direct
expenses, such as refreshments), a column for the amount to pay the band
and a column for the amount to pay the caller. Bands are paid $100.
Callers are paid $40. They receive additional pay (based on the
worksheet) based on door income (attendance). Bands or callers from
outside the local area (an undefined radius) to about 100 miles away get
$25 travel. Bands or callers 200 miles away get $30 travel. The
percentage of door varies from 0% to 30% or so.
>Does the dance pay the caller and band separately, or does the dance provide
>a lump sum and ask the caller and band to work out the split themselves.
As discussed above, we pay them separately.
Harold
--
Harold Hallikainen email ap...@cleveland.freenet.edu
Hallikainen & Friends email hhal...@oboe.aix.calpoly.edu
141 Suburban Road, Building E4 phone +1 805 541 0200
San Luis Obispo, CA 93401-7590 fax +1 805 541 0201
Nancy Mamlin
>Wagle) writes:
>
> > It amazes me how many people are paying, and paying a
> > lot, for sound people.
It amazes me how many are, too. When I brought it up at the board meeting
a couple of years ago that we do it for the Sunday DC dances I thought
(and had correctly anticipated, in fact) that I was going to start a civil
war!
>Speaking both as a musician and a sound guy, I can relate. It does seem
>inequitable at first. However, you've got to realize that doing sound for
>a dance is as close to "trench warfare" as there is in the folk world.
>It's not like concert or coffee house sound.
Trench warfare is the best description I've heard of the job yet.
>In answer to the question, it may be OK to train a member of the dance
>community...but it will take time to learn the ropes. It's tricker than
>one might imagine to equalize instruments (guitars really *are* hard to
>mike) and get a good, intelligible sound. There's more to it then just
>knowing where the plugs go! I should think it would take almost a year to
>get it down right.
Amen to that! In my experience, the best sound people are musicians, too.
And I mean dance musicians. That means (to me) that you can't take Joe
Dancer off the floor and train him to be a good sound person without a
*lot* of effort on everyone's part. Somehow I'm reminded of that quote
about teaching a pig to sing...
Anyway. Someone asked about who was supplying the sound equipment. In
the case of the Folklore Society of Greater Washington, the Society owns
the equipment (and just bought a new board! Yayy!). What is hired when a
sound person is hired is _their_ _expertise_. I personally think it has
made a great difference. For one thing, when I'm calling or playing
there, I don't feel like I'm taking as big a risk as I used to. In the
past I had had some pretty impossible situations. Now, the only
impossibility is that it's still in the cavernous Glen Echo Echo Echo for
nine months a year. But I digress.
One of the folks on the "sound people available for hire" list was telling
me why he's willing to do sound for only $50 a week. He said that (a)
it's his community, and (b) he has spent over twnety years complaining
about crummy sound people and so he thought that since he had the
opportunity to do something about it, he would. Otherwise, he'd have no
right to complain.
This was Bruce Molsky, by the way.
Toby Koosman
person. A small dance can live with its volunteers' sound skills, and a
skilled sound person who dances can happily contribute where the sound
needs are not too demanding. But doing sound in a large crowded hall is
asking a lot of a volunteer, and its asking a lot of the musicians to play
with poor sound management, isn't it?
The best dance sound people I know are not necessarily musicians but are
technically-minded sorts attuned to and interested in acoustic music. It
helps a whole lot, for non-technical reasons, if they are dancers, dance
musicians, or somehow connected to the event. Our worst (recent) experience
with sound at our dance weekend was when we hired some professionals from
outside the dance-and-folk-music mileau. They were expensive and inadequate.
Sometimes you get better quality work from volunteers or dancers willing to
work cheap, just because they give a damn.
Dave Goldman
> ... and it's clearly asking for trouble if you
> hire someone who usually works with (say) death-metal bands.
Oh, I don't know...
-- Dave Goldman
Moondog (Death-Metal Contra Band)
PALevitt
"Briefly the formula is as follows: The minimum for the caller and for
each
band member (up to four) is $75 each. The sound person gets $50. Rent in
the winter location is $320, so the minimum does get paid every now and
then. Rent at Glen Echo (National Parks Service being a great deal- your
tax dollars at work!) is 20% of the take at the door. The Folklore
Society takes some token amount off the top ($10?) and after all that is
paid, the Society takes 25% and gives the remaining 75% to the folks on
stage to split evenly (or really however they want to).
Typically people make right around $100, but since you're paid based on
attendance, it can vary. Paul Levitt - correct or add to this
information!"
Nancy just about covered it, except attendance. During the
Spring/Summer/Fall at Glen Echo we typically have 200 - 300 dancers a
night, although we have had as many as 500 for extremely popular bands
(Swallowtail, Asparagus). When we move to Cherry Hill it drops to 150-200
(the hall is limited to 200). To accomodate popular bands during the
winter we're experimenting with holding an afternoon and evening dance
(Starting with Swallowtail on 1/15).
Paul Levitt (FSGW Dance Chair)
(We miss Nancy, now that she's actually gone away)
Alex Rudnicky
> musicians, or somehow connected to the event. Our worst (recent) experience
> with sound at our dance weekend was when we hired some professionals from
> outside the dance-and-folk-music mileau. They were expensive and inadequate.
> Sometimes you get better quality work from volunteers or dancers willing to
> work cheap, just because they give a damn.
I disagree. Good intentions do not make up for expertise. But there are
different kinds of expertise and it's clearly asking for trouble if you
hire someone who usually works with (say) death-metal bands.
--
Alexander Rudnicky -- School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon University
email: a...@cs.cmu.edu voice: +1 412 268 2622 fax: +1 412 268 6787
http: //www.cs.cmu.edu:8001/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/air/WWW/HomePage.html
Lynn Chirps
Chicago Barn Dance Company pays each musician and caller $40, not for their tale
talent or experience, but for showing up on time, staying the whole time, and
responding to the needs of the dancers. The maximum pay for a local band is
$200. Arrangements for out-of-town bands are variable.
We (CBDC) owns the sound system. Schlepping the system, setting up the hall,
and locking up are all done by an unpaid angel. Several of us who attended a
couple of training sessions by local soundmeister Flawn Williams take turns
at the controls.
Admission is $4 (rarely $5 for an out-of-town band) and we have roughly 30-100
attendance depending on location. We have some grant income. Mailing the
calendar to our friends all over the country is pretty expensive. I think the
hall fees are about $50-100 (several locations). The total budget is kept
under $25,000 for ?tax reasons.
Dot Kent (Chirps is over my shoulder)
R. David Murray
> Amen to that! In my experience, the best sound people are musicians, too.
> And I mean dance musicians. That means (to me) that you can't take Joe
> Dancer off the floor and train him to be a good sound person without a
> *lot* of effort on everyone's part. Somehow I'm reminded of that quote
> about teaching a pig to sing...
In my experience, the best dance sound people are both musicians
*and* excellent dancers. One can get away without being a musician
if one has a good ear (though I suspect such a person is a
potential musician <grin>), but I don't think I've met a non-dancer
sound person whose dance mixing I felt was good enough. (Sometimes
its not obvious: you hardly ever catch Paul Prestopino, who I
consider one of the best, on the dance floor, but if you do it is
immediatly clear he is a very smooth dancer.) NB: this observation
is not original to me, it was pointed out to me by Phil Warren,
another excelent dancer, musician, and sound person.
--David
R. David Murray
> I suppose that by the standard model of how contradances are run, instead
> of the oft-criticised and heretical way we used to do things in
> Bloomington, this means that one develops sound people from among the
> dancers *and then pays them* rather than saving on more expenses and
> having one more group of people who don't get paid in anything other than
> appreciation. Cultural differences, I guess.
This is *exactly* how Philly does it.
Actually, it started out as paying the person who opened the hall,
set up the sound equipment, put it away, and closed the hall. (Philly
owns it's own sound equipment.) That person generally did the mix,
as well. I volunteered for sound at a festival one year, learned
an immense amount in a short time from Paul Prestopino, and decided
to try my hand at the regular dance. After about the year postulated
by someone else posting on this thread I was reasonably decent at it.
I and a few other people learned the job well enough that sound went
from being an erratic happening to something the callers and bands
could depend on. In recognition of this the dance organizers began
to pay more for the setup/sound, and that job became mostly just
sound, with other volunteers (usually) taking care of the non-sound
related details. I think they pay $30 an evening now, which is
still dirt cheap for good sound work, but the people doing the sound
*are* developed from within the community. There is a fair
amount of concern for training, and a clear recognition of how
important sound support is to the success of an evening.
The *amount* of money is in some ways not so important as just the
fact that there *is* money. Recognition is great, being thanked
is great, yet when other key players get paid (caller, band),
paying the sound person *clearly* recognizes that sound support
is critical to the success of the evening. (And I do know of one
sound person who has traveled with a particular band and gotten
paid as a band member.)
Nancy reported a sound person saying they were willing to do sound
for just a little bit of money because they were part of the
community and could contribute that way. I feel that way, as well.
Also, in many venues I can get away with taking the first couple
or three dances to mix, and then pretty much dancing the rest of
the evening. In that case, I improve *my* enjoyment of the dance
by insuring a good (I hope) mix.
I'd probably do sound without getting paid (heck, I do on many
occasions), but when I *do* get paid, the knowledge that I
am recognized as vital to the success of the evening increases
my commitment to doing the best job I can.
--David
PS: You will note, Kieran, that I said "getting paid when others
do", so in your all volunteer model of course I wouldn't expect
to get paid!
R. David Murray
> This is *exactly* how Philly does it.
Woops, please excuse my inadvertant shorthand. I wasn't speaking
about all Philadelphia dances, just the Thursday Night Contra
Series!
--David
Nancy Mamlin
>> Amen to that! In my experience, the best sound people are musicians, too.
>> And I mean dance musicians. That means (to me) that you can't take Joe
>> Dancer off the floor and train him to be a good sound person without a
>> *lot* of effort on everyone's part. Somehow I'm reminded of that quote
>> about teaching a pig to sing...
>
>In my experience, the best dance sound people are both musicians
>*and* excellent dancers. One can get away without being a musician
I stand by what I said, with a clarification: To me, being a good dance
musician also implies being a good dancer. (Almost always true- can't
think of any of my favorite dance musicains who are not also dynamite
dancers.) And, like you say, just because they're not dance gypsies
doesn't mean they're not great dancers.
Nancy
Toby Koosman
(I wrote)
>> Sometimes you get better quality work from volunteers or dancers willing
to >> work cheap, just because they give a damn.
>I disagree. Good intentions do not make up for expertise. But there are
>different kinds of expertise and it's clearly asking for trouble if you
>hire someone who usually works with (say) death-metal bands.
The willingness to contribute your time and skills for little or no pay in no
way implies a lack of expertise. My experience is that the dance community
includes people with a quite respectable range of talents and aptitudes, some
of whom are generous with those skills. If you can pay them for their
contributions, do--we shouldn't take advantage of people. But contributed
labor is not poor work by definition. I've supervised both volunteers and
paid employees, and I'm not convinced the latter are necessarily more
reliable: many people exert the minimum effort necessary to stay employed,
and while volunteers can't be threatened with a pink slip, they are more
responsive to moral pressure. Are you more likely to blow off something you
owe your boss, or something you owe your friends? _That depends_, you're
thinking. Well, yes. And a lot depends on just how formidable a task you're
asking someone to do. But I've seen plenty of high quality work done for
token or gratis, and who hasn't seen expensive work that sucked? (Certain
auto mechanics come to mind.)
I don't want to be understood as saying, Let's not pay people. Every dance
has to work out what's appropriate and available within their means, and what
meets the expectations of their community. I just want to make the case that
professional paid labor is not the only work that's good enough.
Brian Rost
> In my experience, the best dance sound people are both musicians
> *and* excellent dancers. One can get away without being a musician
> if one has a good ear (though I suspect such a person is a
> potential musician <grin>), but I don't think I've met a non-dancer
> sound person whose dance mixing I felt was good enough.
Huh??? You think that mixing sound for a dance requires dancing
experience more than musical experience????
Could you be a little more clear here? It doesn't make any sense to
me at all...as both a musician *and* dancer.
What will a dancer do with the mix that a non-dancer won't???
Michael Bergman
pressure level to be even throughout the hall, and to be better able
to find the acceptable line between too loud at the top and too soft
at the bottom. Especially one who has danced lots of places, with
lots of different mixes to learn what makes a dance with bad sound vs
what makes undanceable sound -- sometimes these are the only two
choices (once the hall and band and equipment are already there and
can't be changed).
And, a dancer might have very different ideas from a musician as to
what makes a good mix (if that musician is not an experienced dance
musician). For example, I caught a sound guy last year balancing the
mix to emphasize the guitars, which he thought were the important
instruments. For those of you who don't know why this is a mistake,
the guitars are usually playing the up-beats (or back beat), rather
than the downbeat, in a contra-dance band. Confuses the dancers if
its too loud.
Some sound people might also be tempted to pull down the rythym
section during a saxaphone solo...and sound people who are used to
concerts rarely walk around the hall, and don't necessarily know how
the mix needs to be changed as more people come in or leave.
Sometimes they're caught off-guard by the incredible amount of noise
all those feet make. Or all the talking...some callers do a
walkthrough in a speaking voice, but raise their voice and either
shout or sing once the dance itself starts.
Another thing that makes for a better sound person is for them to
attend the NEFFA sound workshops! Coming soon (Boston area). Watch
this space for announcements. These are free workshops, sponsored by
NEFFA, to increase the number of qualified volunteers available to
help out at the festival...
--Mike Bergman
aug...@world.std.com
Augment Systems, Inc.
ro...@nutshell.maelstrom.timeplex.com (Brian Rost) writes:
>In article <3epfhn$r...@pumpelly.monad.net> "R. David Murray" <rdmu...@bitdance.com> writes:
>> In my experience, the best dance sound people are both musicians
>> *and* excellent dancers. One can get away without being a musician
>> if one has a good ear (though I suspect such a person is a
>> potential musician <grin>), but I don't think I've met a non-dancer
>> sound person whose dance mixing I felt was good enough.
>Huh??? You think that mixing sound for a dance requires dancing
>experience more than musical experience????
>Could you be a little more clear here? It doesn't make any sense to
>me at all...as both a musician *and* dancer.
>What will a dancer do with the mix that a non-dancer won't???
>--
--
--Mike Bergman Voice: (617) 271-0230
Augment Systems, Inc. email: aug...@world.std.com
19 B Crosby Drive