old-time music for contras
David Elek Kirchner
Julie Mangin
In article <5ihcjq$7it$1...@newsreader.wustl.edu>,
David Elek Kirchner <dav...@artsci.wustl.edu> wrote:
>
>
>--
>David
>dav...@artsci.wustl.edu
>http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~david6
David: Your intriguing subject header and post left me wanting more!
Julie
David Elek Kirchner
Julie Mangin (jma...@access2.digex.net) wrote:
: David: Your intriguing subject header and post left me wanting more!
Whoops! Here's what I meant to post. Hope it works better this time. :)
I've been participating in an email discussion of this topic, and I
thought I would raise it in this forum to see if people might be able to
shed some light on the question. Why is it that old-time music for contra
dances is much more popular in the midwest than on the east coast?
(Please note that I am _only_ discussing CONTRA dances; IMHO square dances
have different musical requirements and I do not feel that the same
dichotomy exists.)
Both I and my correspondent agree that old-time music heard at such venues
as Breaking Up Thanksgiving, Kimmswick, and Sugar Hill seems qualitatively
better for contra dancing than the old-time music regularly played at
Baltimore and Washington, but we have different theories about why this is
the case.
(One caveat is clearly true -- the above comparison is one of apples to
oranges, in that we are comparing dance weekends to regular weekly dances.
But we had to find common ground for our discussion, and Glen Echo and
Baltimore certainly attract excellent old-time musicians on a fairly
regular basis.)
I know, I need to define "better" music, but it's hard to do (and it's
part of the reason I'm asking this question). But one clear measurement is
that old-time bands are highly successful in the midwest, acting as the
mainstays of many dance communities and drawing out-of-town dancers to
weekends and other special events. On the East Coast, old-time bands do
not tend to serve as workhorse bands for contra communities AFAIK and do
not exhibit this drawing power.
And second, on a purely personal level, I was immediately struck by my
reaction to old-time bands when I moved to the midwest. I wanted to pick
up my feet more, and dance harder and longer, than I wanted to do when
dancing to old-time bands on the east coast. (Not that I disliked east
coast old-time bands, as some of you know.) But I do not feel like enough
of a connoisseur of old-time music to try to describe this musically. I've
tried to articulate it many times without feeling that I'm conveying what
I hear. Does someone else who knows what I'm talking about want to take a
crack at describing this?
Do any of you agree with my characterization above? If so, the next
question is why? I do not think the ability of the musicians differs. I
and the person with whom I was corresponding came up with several
alternative hypotheses in the course of our discussion, and I would
welcome supporting or rejecting arguments concerning any of them (or
any other hypotheses anyone might care to offer):
1) Starting enthusiasm. Maybe midwestern crowds just enjoy and respond
more to old-time music than east coast crowds to start with. Many dancers
in the midwest learned to dance to old-time music and do not expect
anything different. The enthusiasm musicians feel in a hall is reflected
in their playing and the whole energy level of the hall increases.
2) Sound. Maybe people who run sound on the east coast run it differently
from those who run sound in the midwest, making the bands sound different.
3) Callers. Maybe since old-time bands are quite common in the midwest,
callers may have grown used to calling with them and do a generally better
job than their east coast counterparts, thus providing a better overall
dance experience. (I know this somewhat contradicts the following idea,
but I'm just brainstorming here...)
4) Squares. As has been discussed in this newsgroup many times, contra
dancers are not always especially excited about square dances. On the east
coast, old-time bands tend to be matched with callers who call squares; in
the midwest, it is quite common for dances featuring old-time bands to
include no squares at all. So perhaps old-time bands on the east coast are
stigmatized by their association with squares. (This makes no sense from
my own aesthetic viewpoint, but maybe others see it differently.)
5) Tune choice. Maybe the tunes played by midwestern bands are just better
tunes for contra dances.
6) Phrasing. Maybe midwestern musicians play the phrases of the music more
distinctly than east coast musicians do, and dancers have an easier time
determining where one part ends and another begins.
7) Practice makes perfect. Maybe old-time bands in the midwest play for
contra dances much more often than their east coast colleagues, and
they've just gotten better at it through greater exposure.
8) Competition. Many of the longest running dance weekends in the midwest
are organized on an open band or semi-open band format. Perhaps this kind
of head-to-head popularity contest between several bands fosters better
playing by all of them.
9) Other alternatives. Maybe the quality of Irish, New England, French
Canadian, and other bands in the midwest is much lower than it is
elsewhere in the country, so people prefer to dance to high-quality
old-time music. (Which leads to the practice makes perfect argument.)
10) Musicians as dancers. Maybe musicians in the midwest dance more than
east coast musicians, and dancing is related to music quality.
11) Speed. A common complaint of east coast dancers is that old-time bands
play too fast. I have only rarely heard this complaint in the midwest
regardless of band speed (though I do recall comments about a band that
played in the wee hours at Breaking Up Thanksgiving whose first tune was
about 150bpm (I was timing)). Maybe midwesterners are younger/more fit,
just like to dance faster, or simply have more tolerance for fast tunes.
Clearly, I don't think any of these fully captures the difference, or I
wouldn't be as hesitant as I am in expressing an opinion. I look forward
to seeing what others have to say.
Beth Parkes
David Elek Kirchner <dav...@artsci.wustl.edu> wrote in article
<5ijs47$3ea$1...@newsreader.wustl.edu>...
> I've been participating in an email discussion of this topic, and I
> thought I would raise it in this forum to see if people might be able to
> shed some light on the question. Why is it that old-time music for contra
> dances is much more popular in the midwest than on the east coast?
>
David, I won't address all of the fine speculative points you brought up. I
just want to address this from an historical perspective.
Old Time music is not traditional in the Northeast. Contras
have been done to New England's own traditional music: that descended
from the Jigs and Reels of Ireland, Scotland and England.
Contra dancing first started moving into the midwest in the 1970s and 80s.
There weren't bands who understood the New England style of music.
You might run a dance with a Scottish or Irish band, but that wasn't
the same thing and they often didn't know how to play for dances.
The best musicians for dance often were those who had been
playing for the traditional dances of the area: the squares. These were,
of course, the old time bands. They understood about working with a
caller, getting the dancers to move with the music, etc.
IMVHO, the faster tempos introduced by these bands have changed
contra dancing. Whether you think this is for the better or not is open
to discussion. The New England contras were much more laid back,
done at 105-110 bpm. Sometimes creeping up as fast as 120. Old
time bands usually start at about 120 and go up from there. This does
impact the delicate social interactions that make contra dancing a
whole set dance and force you to dance more with just your partner
or, at most, the foursome. (The terms Rat-Race versus Invigorating come
to mind: a rat-race if you don't like the speed, invigorating if you do.)
By the way, do your old time bands use a piano? If they do, they have
adjusted to a New England tradition. AFAIK, prior to contra dancing
coming west, pianos were pretty much unheard of in old time bands.
For me, a midwesterner who moved east, the first time I heard a real
New England band play contra dance music it was like a light coming
on! So this is how it is supposed to be!
Beth Parkes
Nate Goldshlag
In article <01bc46ae$ebec0a60$0f02...@world.std.com>, "Beth Parkes"
<bpa...@delphi.com> wrote:
> IMVHO, the faster tempos introduced by these bands have changed
> contra dancing. Whether you think this is for the better or not is open
> to discussion. The New England contras were much more laid back,
> done at 105-110 bpm. Sometimes creeping up as fast as 120. Old
> time bands usually start at about 120 and go up from there. This does
> impact the delicate social interactions that make contra dancing a
> whole set dance and force you to dance more with just your partner
> or, at most, the foursome. (The terms Rat-Race versus Invigorating come
> to mind: a rat-race if you don't like the speed, invigorating if you do.)
My opinion, as one who dances in Cambridge almost exclusively to Northern
music, is that old-time music is incredible for contra dancing and it is
the music and the fast tempo that causes that. People up here have no
clue what Southern squares are about. Yet when an old-time band comes
here, or a Northern band plays Southern squares with a caller who knows
how to do them - people go nuts. They whoop and holler without having a
clue why and what made those squares different from the (often boring)
Northern squares done here. People I know who say "I don't like squares"
do southern squares and it is a whole different animal.
> By the way, do your old time bands use a piano?
I have never seen a piano in an old-time dance band.
> For me, a midwesterner who moved east, the first time I heard a real
> New England band play contra dance music it was like a light coming
> on! So this is how it is supposed to be!
Many people up here will have their lights turned on when they get turned
on to Southern music!
Nate
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nate Goldshlag "People ask me why I don't get fat
na...@reflection.com it's cause I like to dance like that.
http://www.ziplink.net/~nateg I eat as much as I can hold
Cambridge, MA and go out and do the zydeco."
-- Marcia Ball
Deborah Clover
I love old time music for dancing. The energy is tremendous, the rhythm
driving. Hard to get better IMHO. I also love playing old-time music for
contra dances, although I can vouch for the speed issue. It's hard to keep
the tempo to one that most contra dancers are happy with, especially if
it's not the most experienced group of dancers.
On 12 Apr 1997, Nate Goldshlag wrote:
> In article <01bc46ae$ebec0a60$0f02...@world.std.com>, "Beth Parkes"
> <bpa...@delphi.com> wrote:
>
> > By the way, do your old time bands use a piano?
>
> I have never seen a piano in an old-time dance band.
I played in an old-time band in the Syracuse, NY area for awhile, and we
had a piano. This was definitely the New England influence, and it did
have an interesting impact on the music. It worked out well, though, for
the dances, but in jamming we preferred "straight" southern style.
Deb Clover
Ithaca, NY
Nancy Mamlin
Oh David, How can I resist!!!
In article <5ijs47$3ea$1...@newsreader.wustl.edu>, dav...@artsci.wustl.edu (David
Elek Kirchner) wrote:
>I've been participating in an email discussion of this topic, and I
>thought I would raise it in this forum to see if people might be able to
>shed some light on the question. Why is it that old-time music for contra
>dances is much more popular in the midwest than on the east coast?
As someone who lived in the Midwest, and then in the "Mid-Atlantic" area, can
I just say that people are smarter in the Midwest? ;) No, I guess that that's
not it....
Anyway, I think I know what you're talking about, and there's a lot of stuff
going on culturally that Beth kind of alluded to. F'rinstance, there simply
aren't (or weren't when the dances got going) New England Style bands in the
Midwest- people dance to what is available for dance music.
>1) Starting enthusiasm. Maybe midwestern crowds just enjoy and respond
>more to old-time music than east coast crowds to start with. Many dancers
I think dancers in the misdwest respond more to bands/callers/stuff on the
stage as a whole. In my experience, the larger cities of the East Coast are
more into themselves as dancers vs. us as musicians/callers, whereas the
Midwest still has the "we're all in this together" attitude. This may be in
part due to the cooperative-style dance weekends that typify the Midwest.
>3) Callers. Maybe since old-time bands are quite common in the midwest,
>callers may have grown used to calling with them and do a generally better
>job than their east coast counterparts, thus providing a better overall
>dance experience. (I know this somewhat contradicts the following idea,
>but I'm just brainstorming here...)
I agree with this.
>5) Tune choice. Maybe the tunes played by midwestern bands are just better
>tunes for contra dances.
Someone smarter than me can fix what I'm about to say, but here's my
refinement of your explanation:
Midwestern old-time tunes are different from the tunes generally
played by "East Coast" musicians. The first set of tunes do, in fact, tend to
be more melodious, have more distinct A and B parts, and be in better keys.
The stuff the "Eastern" musicians play tends to be from the Surry County, NC
and Grayson County, VA area and those tunes can be grossly typified as being
less appropriate for contras--- when you listen to those tunes, you're more
likely to want to clog or do a running set than something like a contra
dance.... There are fewer notes, the A and B parts are not so distinct, and
the *really* good tunes from that area are so crooked you can hardly do a
square dance to them, no way a contra dance.
That said, there are plenty of dance bands down around here, and up in
the MidAtlantic area who have a great repertoire of NC/VA tunes that work
great with contra dances. These are experienced dance bands, though.
>6) Phrasing. Maybe midwestern musicians play the phrases of the music more
>distinctly than east coast musicians do, and dancers have an easier time
>determining where one part ends and another begins.
It's not the ability of the musicians as much as the tunes they are playing.
>7) Practice makes perfect. Maybe old-time bands in the midwest play for
>contra dances much more often than their east coast colleagues, and
>they've just gotten better at it through greater exposure.
True, too. There are so many bands on the East Coast of any description that
it's hard for a band to have a "regular dance" that they play.
>9) Other alternatives. Maybe the quality of Irish, New England, French
>Canadian, and other bands in the midwest is much lower than it is
>elsewhere in the country, so people prefer to dance to high-quality
>old-time music. (Which leads to the practice makes perfect argument.)
Yeah- or it kind of doesn't even exist in some places.
>10) Musicians as dancers. Maybe musicians in the midwest dance more than
>east coast musicians, and dancing is related to music quality.
I think this is also related to the "community" thing I referred to earlier-
At the Midwetern "pitch-in" weekends there's more of a community established
between the musicians/dancers, etc. There isn't the "we hired you so do what
we want" attitude which breaks things down.
There are probably other aspects of what goes on...
See ya,
Nancy
Paul M. Gifford
>David Elek Kirchner <dav...@artsci.wustl.edu> wrote in article
><5ijs47$3ea$1...@newsreader.wustl.edu>...
>> I've been participating in an email discussion of this topic, and I
>> thought I would raise it in this forum to see if people might be able to
>> shed some light on the question. Why is it that old-time music for contra
>> dances is much more popular in the midwest than on the east coast?
>>
>David, I won't address all of the fine speculative points you brought up. I
>just want to address this from an historical perspective.
>Old Time music is not traditional in the Northeast. Contras
>have been done to New England's own traditional music: that descended
>from the Jigs and Reels of Ireland, Scotland and England.
This sounds like you are defining "old-time music" as groups consisting
of fiddle, clawhammer banjo, and guitar, playing mainly tunes from the
Galax, VA, area. There are, in fact, many local varieties. Perhaps it is
possible to define REVIVAL styles in the way you are doing, but the
traditional animal is harder to pigeonhole. For example,"Money Musk" was
widely known all over the country. There is a core of old tunes, both in 2/4
and 6/8, which were known by fiddlers all over the country. Then there are
6/8 and 2/4 quadrilles which are not at all of British origin, but were written
in the U.S. Further, the traditional repertoire in New England ("Yankee")
(which probably has more in common with the rest of the country) has been
supplanted by French-Canadian and Don Messer-influence Canadian fiddle
music, which is definitely more Irish-influenced than the old stuff.
>Contra dancing first started moving into the midwest in the 1970s and 80s.
>There weren't bands who understood the New England style of music.
>You might run a dance with a Scottish or Irish band, but that wasn't
>the same thing and they often didn't know how to play for dances.
>The best musicians for dance often were those who had been
>playing for the traditional dances of the area: the squares. These were,
>of course, the old time bands. They understood about working with a
>caller, getting the dancers to move with the music, etc.
You're talking about revival contra dancing, of course. In Michigan, I
have talked to old-timers who remember the Opera Reel, Money Musk,
and Irish Trot being danced around 1920. These were popular in the
pioneer period (1820-1860) as well, and others were danced (French Four,
Lady Washington, Durang's Hornpipe, etc.). Les Raber, an 86-year-old
fiddler, can still call the Irish Trot.
So, I gather from what you're saying, that square dancing was never done
in New England?
>By the way, do your old time bands use a piano? If they do, they have
>adjusted to a New England tradition. AFAIK, prior to contra dancing
>coming west, pianos were pretty much unheard of in old time bands.
Pianos aren't just a New England tradition. Probably most of the
country used them for dances after about 1910 or 1920 or so. Before
that, reed organs were common enough (the period 1880-1920 or so).
I doubt that you'll find pianos were commonly used for dancing in
New England before that time period, either. I learned to chord on
a piano well before I heard any modern New England contra music
(which was in 1972).
I just don't think all this stuff can be, or should be, divided into two
camps: Galax/Tommy Jarrell music vs. New England/Ralph Page music.
The world is more complicated than that!
Paul Gifford
Dexter Horton
About 5 or 6 years ago I went to a dance where the band picked up
electric guitars for a set, and played a reggae type synchopated rhythm.
It was really cool, and I wish I could come across this again, I
wish a new trend would start. It took a while to get into the flow, but I
found it really enjoyable.
At a Skandinavian dance, a band put a similar synchopation into
their polska and waltz music.
After several thousand events, few stick out. Both of these stick
out in a favorable way.
Dex
On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Beth Parkes wrote:
>
>
> David Elek Kirchner <dav...@artsci.wustl.edu> wrote in article
> <5ijs47$3ea$1...@newsreader.wustl.edu>...
>
> > I've been participating in an email discussion of this topic, and I
> > thought I would raise it in this forum to see if people might be able to
> > shed some light on the question. Why is it that old-time music for contra
> > dances is much more popular in the midwest than on the east coast?
> >
>
Kiran Wagle
maml...@appstate.edu (Nancy Mamlin) wrote:
> I think this is also related to the "community" thing I referred to earlier-
> At the Midwetern "pitch-in" weekends there's more of a community established
> between the musicians/dancers, etc. There isn't the "we hired you so do what
> we want" attitude which breaks things down.
That's because we DIDN'T hire them.
If someone hires you to do a job, *I* feel you otta do the job they hired
you for, especially if they're paying you to do it.
~ Kiran <ent...@io.com>
Paul J. Stamler
htlink.com>:
Organization: CRL Dialup Internet Access (415) 705-6060 [Login: guest]
Distribution:
: > In article <01bc46ae$ebec0a60$0f02...@world.std.com>, "Beth Parkes"
: > <bpa...@delphi.com> wrote:
: >
: > > By the way, do your old time bands use a piano?
: >
: > I have never seen a piano in an old-time dance band.
Pianos are not uncommon in Missouri old-time bands. It was one of the
traditional instruments here. (So, occasionally, was bowed cello.)
Peace.
Paul
Paul J. Stamler
I was around when revival contra-dancing started in St. Louis, which was
about contemporaneous with its beginning in Chicago and other midwestern
cities. When we began, we used the musicians we had--the Indian Creek
Delta Boys and Jim & Julia Olin carried most of the load. We experimented
for a few dances with recorded New England music (Dudley Laufman & crew),
and made a conscious group decision that we'd rather dance to live music
even though the style was different from New England. It made a
difference that our first caller was (is) also an accomplished old-time
musician in his own right, with experience playing in a broad variety of
southern styles. Around that time, people like Jim and Julia and the
Delta Boys were beginning to collect midwestern music (Missouri, Arkansas
and southern Illinois), so we had indigenous sources to learn from. We
did some of the common-stock tunes and the dances that went with them (Money
Musk, Petronella, etc.), but inevitably they got transformed by the
players into southern-style string-band music, because that was the
musicians' area of expertise. There was also a strong component of
localism involved: many musicians were making a very conscious effort to
collect and learn as many regional tunes as possible, and perpetuate them
in their work (including playing for contras).
As far as I can tell, similar processes were at work in Chicago,
Bloomington, and other foci of contra-infection. It was an exciting high
point of the folk revival (mid-1970s), with great interest in indigenous
styles and material. The influential revival performers were the
Highwoods String Band, the Fuzzy Mountain String Band, and other groups
closely linked to the source performers of their regions. We all wanted
to do the same things, and some vital collecting projects were spawned
(Indiana, Illinois, Missouri, Arkansas, Ohio--all produced imporant
recordings of indigenous music, especially dance music.)
What is ironic and fascinating to me is that, in this process, the dances
changed very quickly. Along with the contra revival, many callers began
writing new dances. The faster tempi and higher energy levels at the
midwestern dances (spreading to the east and even a little bit northeast,
i.e. Pennsylvania) spurred the writing of higher-energy, more-aerobic
dances, and this in turn spurred another change in the music, with bands
combining New England, Irish and French-Canadian material and high-energy
styling with an altered beat that is borrowed from rock-and-roll. (See the
String Beings, for example, or the band David plays in, String Dancer.)
It's fascinating to be in the midst of a growing, changing tradition, and
to watch the "folk process" happening before our eyes. I must confess
that I occasionally miss some of the old dances (Hull's Victory, Rory
O'More), which I loved. Thus speaketh the old fart.
Peace.
Paul
Beth Parkes
Whew, where to start, Paul....
Paul M. Gifford <giff...@lib.flint.umich.edu> wrote
>
>
> >David, I won't address all of the fine speculative points you brought
up. I
> >just want to address this from an historical perspective.
> >Old Time music is not traditional in the Northeast. Contras
> >have been done to New England's own traditional music: that descended
> >from the Jigs and Reels of Ireland, Scotland and England.
>
> This sounds like you are defining "old-time music" as groups consisting
> of fiddle, clawhammer banjo, and guitar, playing mainly tunes from the
> Galax, VA, area. There are, in fact, many local varieties. Perhaps it
is
> possible to define REVIVAL styles in the way you are doing, but the
> traditional animal is harder to pigeonhole. For example,"Money Musk" was
> widely known all over the country. There is a core of old tunes, both in
2/4
> and 6/8, which were known by fiddlers all over the country. Then there
are
> 6/8 and 2/4 quadrilles which are not at all of British origin, but were
written
> in the U.S. Further, the traditional repertoire in New England
("Yankee")
> (which probably has more in common with the rest of the country) has been
> supplanted by French-Canadian and Don Messer-influence Canadian fiddle
> music, which is definitely more Irish-influenced than the old stuff.
>
Yes, I was assuming that David's original post was using the term
"old-time"
to mean what, when I lived in Ohio, we called "old-timey." The fast,
unphrased
"Southern" style that I am hearing you all say comes from Galex, VA. I'm
certainly no expert, and have appreciated learning more. Perhaps I did mis-
-interpret David's message.
> You're talking about revival contra dancing, of course. In Michigan, I
> have talked to old-timers who remember the Opera Reel, Money Musk,
> and Irish Trot being danced around 1920. These were popular in the
> pioneer period (1820-1860) as well, and others were danced (French Four,
> Lady Washington, Durang's Hornpipe, etc.). Les Raber, an 86-year-old
> fiddler, can still call the Irish Trot.
The original post was a long diatribe about how much better the "old-time"
music done TODAY in the midwest is than the music of the East. (An opinion
I strongly disagree with, BTW) Yes, he was speaking of revival contra! The
dances
in Michigan in the early part of this century, as I understand it, were
mostly
Henry Ford's attempt to revive New England dancing. He brought in
Benjamin Lovett and published the sheet music, etc. IMO, this would fall
firmly
in the category of Eastern music as discussed in the original post. I
believe
that theses dances had mostly died out before the contra revival.
>
> So, I gather from what you're saying, that square dancing was never done
> in New England?
Of course squares have always been a part of New England dancing. My point
was
that the midwest had forgotten the contras by the time they were revived in
the
70s and 80s. The dances done to the fast old-timey music were squares.
>
> >By the way, do your old time bands use a piano? If they do, they have
> >adjusted to a New England tradition. AFAIK, prior to contra dancing
> >coming west, pianos were pretty much unheard of in old time bands.
>
> Pianos aren't just a New England tradition.
I think you missed my point here: I wasn't saying that pianos are
strickly New England, but the use of them with old-timey music at
revival contra dances is a New England influence.
> I just don't think all this stuff can be, or should be, divided into two
> camps: Galax/Tommy Jarrell music vs. New England/Ralph Page music.
> The world is more complicated than that!
>
> Paul Gifford
>
I agree with this!!!! The orignal post, however, was talking about how
much better the old-time music done in the mid-west was than that
done in the East. I was responding to that premise.
I personally do not like a whole evening of very fast, not clearly phrased
"old-timey" music for contra dancing. But I'm an old fart who believes that
when the elegance went out of contra dancing we lost immeasurably.
Beth Parkes
David Elek Kirchner
Beth Parkes (bpa...@delphi.com) wrote:
: The original post was a long diatribe about how much better the "old-time"
: music done TODAY in the midwest is than the music of the East. (An opinion
: I strongly disagree with, BTW)
Wait a minute, I never said anything of the kind. I very carefully said that
I have enjoyed _dancing contra dances_ to old-time music in the midwest more
than I did on the east coast. I never said the midestern old-time music was
"much better" on any other basis, nor would I necessarily agree with such
a statement.
Beth Parkes
Thanks, David, for the clarification. I'm really sorry I was
reading into you post things you didn't intend to put there. I
felt to me like you were putting down eastern music in every
paragraph. I suspect this was partly my own defensiveness and
partly just the negativity of the medium.
BTW, sorry of the attrocious line breaks on my last post. I've
just switch news readers and just learned more about it....
Beth
David Elek Kirchner <dav...@artsci.wustl.edu> wrote in article
<5j37rv$35m$1...@newsreader.wustl.edu>...
> Beth Parkes (bpa...@delphi.com) wrote:
>
> : The original post was a long diatribe about how much better
the "old-time"
> : music done TODAY in the midwest is than the music of the
East. (An opinion
> : I strongly disagree with, BTW)
>
> Wait a minute, I never said anything of the kind. I very
carefully said that
> I have enjoyed _dancing contra dances_ to old-time music in
the midwest more
> than I did on the east coast. I never said the midestern
old-time music was
> "much better" on any other basis, nor would I necessarily
agree with such
> a statement.
>
Erna-Lynne Bogue
I'm not sure this is what David was intending to say, but here's my
experience.
I *LOVE* dancing contras to really solid old-timey string band music
like many of the bands in the Midwest put out -- Volo Bogtrotters are
some of my favorites. As a caller, I have one group of dances that I
simply won't call without this kind of band. They're mostly written by
midwestern callers, and this is what they work with.
I am equally in *LOVE* with contras done to that huge variety of New
England / French Canadian / Irish etc tunes that one finds on the East
Coast. I love the arrangements, the melodies, the slower tempo. And I
have a different batch of dances I will only call with this kind of
band; this is what they work with.
The times I have been least happy with music are when a band that is
really solidly based in one of these traditions tries to play in the
other. The tunes and tempo may be there, but the feel just isn't right,
and it never has the life that the band has playing the music they are
comfortable with. And then someone will say, "See: Old-timey
(New England) music just isn't as good for contra dancing."
There really is a different contra style/tradition out here in the
Midwset built around that stringband sound. It's not New England
dancing. It's darn good dancing. I'm happy to live in a place where
we can enjoy both worlds.
--------------------------------------
Erna-Lynne Bogue / Ann Arbor MI
better email address: ebo...@umich.edu
--------------------------------------
Gene Hubert
In <5j37rv$35m$1...@newsreader.wustl.edu>, dav...@artsci.wustl.edu (David Elek Kirchner) writes:
>Beth Parkes (bpa...@delphi.com) wrote:
>
>: The original post was a long diatribe about how much better the "old-time"
>: music done TODAY in the midwest is than the music of the East. (An opinion
>: I strongly disagree with, BTW)
>
For what it's worth, I thought the original post was pretty objective.
I did a ton of dancing in the Midwest in the mid 80's and periodically
return to catch the scene. I can tell a big difference in the old-time
music within the Midwest during the past 10 years.
Basically, the musicians have learned more about the dance and
adapted their repertoire accordingly. I can tell you that tempos
have come down even thought they're still 5-10 percent faster
than many New England bands.
In the old days, I can remember Al Olson remarking that the only
tempo choices we got were very fast and extremely fast! The
faster tempos certainly affected choreography. The first couple
of times I called "The Reunion", the combination of some unusual
transitons and fast tempo pretty well wrecked the set. I didn't
call it again for several years by which time Ted Sannella had
"proven" the dance with New England music. If a given dance
"danced poorly", it was sometimes very difficult to tell if it
was due to poor choreography or the music being very fast.
It was never common, but the band would occasionally play a
crooked tune for a contra. I think in most cases it was out of
ignorance. On one occasion at Kimmswick, the band played Cherokee
Shuffle with Rush McAlister calling Shadrack's Delight. I thing Rush
was convinced that the band did it as a prank on that occasion.
Gene Hubert
Laurie Buchanan
Dexter Horton wrote:
>
> About 5 or 6 years ago I went to a dance where the band picked up electric guitars for a set, and played a reggae type synchopated rhythm.
>
> It was really cool, and I wish I could come across this again, I wish a new trend would start. It took a while to get into the flow, but I found it really enjoyable.
Dex,
Since you are in Seattle, I thought I'd put in a plug here for
the "Black Flies". They are a fairly new contra dance trio
in Seattle who play mandolin, electric guitar and various hand
drum percussion. If you get a chance to dance to them you are
in for a treat.
--
Laurie Buchanan
Eugene, OR
Richard Crew
Deborah Clover <dcl...@light.lightlink.com> wrote:
: I love old time music for dancing. The energy is tremendous, the rhythm
: driving. Hard to get better IMHO. I also love playing old-time music for
: contra dances, although I can vouch for the speed issue. It's hard to keep
: the tempo to one that most contra dancers are happy with, especially if
: it's not the most experienced group of dancers.
:
: On 12 Apr 1997, Nate Goldshlag wrote:
: I played in an old-time band in the Syracuse, NY area for awhile, and we
: had a piano. This was definitely the New England influence, and it did
: have an interesting impact on the music. It worked out well, though, for
: the dances, but in jamming we preferred "straight" southern style.
I used to play in a basically-New-England-style band with a piano, but
it didn't stop us from playing old-time for contras (and we had great fun
with it, too).
--Rich
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Paul Watkins
>> >By the way, do your old time bands use a piano? If they do, they have
>> >adjusted to a New England tradition. AFAIK, prior to contra dancing
>> >coming west, pianos were pretty much unheard of in old time bands.
>>
>> Pianos aren't just a New England tradition.
>
>I think you missed my point here: I wasn't saying that pianos are
>strickly New England, but the use of them with old-timey music at
>revival contra dances is a New England influence.
In parts of the Midwest (Missouri, Iowa, parts of Illinois, and surely other
places I'm not aware of - certainly parts of the midwest that David dances in)
piano is included in the music because the piano was a part of the local
culture at the time old-time music was part of the popular culture, and the
local bands have kept that tradition. This has much more to do with the piano
as an attractive rhythm instrument than it does with influence from the contra
revival in New England.
For example, when I started dancing in Chicago, one of my favorite bands was
composed of a couple from Missouri, who played fiddle and piano. I'm certain
that their choice of instrumentation was not driven at all by what was
happening in the contra dance revival in New England.
--Paul
Paul Watkins
David Elek Kirchner
Erna-Lynne Bogue (elb...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: I'm not sure this is what David was intending to say, but here's my
: experience.
: I am equally in *LOVE* with contras done to that huge variety of New
: England / French Canadian / Irish etc tunes that one finds on the East
: Coast. I love the arrangements, the melodies, the slower tempo. And I
: have a different batch of dances I will only call with this kind of
: band; this is what they work with.
Me too! I think there may have been some misunderstanding of my original
post; I was comparing the music labeled "old-time" in the midwest to the
music labeled "old-time" on the east coast. I not only like "New-England
style" music, I play in a band that primarily draws from that tradition.