Can you hear the beat?
Velodancer
all contra dancers can hear, or at least step on the beat. Some are adept at
faking it, but they are dependent on their partner's interpetation of the
rythym. And forget about hearing the phrasing.
My question is this really something that cannot be learned? I have certainly
noted people who cannot hear the beat that do not progress over the years. I'm
also thinking that if contra dancers are representative of the larger
population, then does that mean that about half of everybody are seriously
musically challenged, to the extent of being unable to sing in time?
Certain types of dancing are more time sensitive than others, swing dancers
seem to have a much lower percentage of time challenged individuals than contra
dancers. Nightclub dancing is perhaps the least sensitive, especially with
alcohol on board. Of course, these activities are self selected, hard to figure
out for all people.
My best contra experiences have been with a good band, great tune, meeting your
partner (or neighbors) smack on the beat. Enhanced in those rare moments when
those closest to you in line are also moving in synch with the music. This can
be such an incredible feeling that I can imagine it is how a musician must feel
when playing in a groove with others.
Could any music teachers comment on percentages of children who have trouble
hearing rythym or unable to learn to hear rythym?
Nancy Mamlin
"Velodancer" <velod...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021214155328...@mb-mu.aol.com...
> Could any music teachers comment on percentages of children who have
trouble
> hearing rythym or unable to learn to hear rythym?
I'm not a music teacher, but both my father and brother are. They have the
same name to avoid any potential confusion. Anyway, I have definitely heard
my brother say that everyone is capable of being taught to sing, which I
would extrapolate to everyone being able to tell where a beat is, since
that's needed for singing. My brother teaches elementary school general
music, so he has about 500 students- all of them in the school- and he
manages to teach them all something!
I think your observations are of people who either (a) don't realize that
the beat is important, or (b) don't realize that there is a band they are
dancing to. In other words, it's more a matter of paying attention than of
absolute inability.
I am a special education teacher (well, now I am a teacher of special
education teachers). Part of my belief system is that everyone can/does
learn. But, they do have to put forth some of the effort to do so!
Nancy
S Miskoe
moved away from doing this and it makes it hard to dance to them. The gold
standard of appropriate beats is Bob McQuillen who is always perfectly on the
beat with his left hand, followed by a perfect off-beat with his right.
A lot of beginners do not realize that they should feel the music and let the
beat drive their steps. If you sit out a dance and watch those who are
dancing, you can pick out folks who are hearing/feeling it and those who are
not.
Besides providing the dancers with a good beat, the tunes selected must have
good phrasing so the dancers know where to start a figure. There are lots of
tunes that are great to play but are not great dance tunes.
Cheers,
Sylvia Miskoe, Concord, NH
Gene E. Bloch
It can be worse in International Folk Dancing, where the rhythms are more
varied. For example, one of the simplest rhythms, often called lesnoto, is
7:8, counted as three beats of lengths 3-2-2. Meanwhiile, the instruments,
the singers, and the dance can all do separate things to the measure.
Sticking to the example of 7:8, for instance, one could have the dance
counting two beats, 3-4, instead of the 3-2-2 while an instrument seems to
be playing 2-1-2-2, during some part of the dance, at least. Meanwhile, the
musical phrasing could be four or eight measures while the dance phrasing is
three in some figures of the dance, four in others, and five in others. It's
often not too bad when some of the people have a problem, at least when the
line is hand-held, but in belt-hold and shoulder-hold dances, it can be
literally painful to be next to the wrong person.
The above is just the beginning...
Whee!
Gino
--
--
Gene E. Bloch 650.966.8481
gino37 at earthlink.net
--
Bruce Freeman
But I'd also like to point out that beginner dancers are rarely
instructed that contra dancing is one step per beat.
Almost never are they told the number of beats a figure lasts.
They're also frequently not told to WALK most figures - don't skip,
hop, sidle, or whatever it is they seem to be doing.
Those of us aware of music (which is not to say "musically talented"!)
know these things or figure them out pretty quickly, but apparently
some folks out there don't.
The callers, teaching the beginners lesson, could go far to alleviate
timing problems by pointing out these things.
Bruce Freeman
Bruce Henderson
> Broad Generalization Alert: It has been my experience that only about half of
> all contra dancers can hear, or at least step on the beat. Some are adept at
> faking it, but they are dependent on their partner's interpetation of the
> rythym. And forget about hearing the phrasing.
>
> My question is this really something that cannot be learned? I have certainly
> noted people who cannot hear the beat that do not progress over the years. I'm
> also thinking that if contra dancers are representative of the larger
> population, then does that mean that about half of everybody are seriously
> musically challenged, to the extent of being unable to sing in time?
>
> Certain types of dancing are more time sensitive than others, swing dancers
> dancers. Nightclub dancing is perhaps the least sensitive, especially with
> alcohol on board. Of course, these activities are self selected, hard to figure
> out for all people.
>
> partner (or neighbors) smack on the beat. Enhanced in those rare moments when
> those closest to you in line are also moving in synch with the music. This can
> be such an incredible feeling that I can imagine it is how a musician must feel
> when playing in a groove with others.
>
> Could any music teachers comment on percentages of children who have trouble
> hearing rythym or unable to learn to hear rythym?
I'm certainly not a music teacher (in fact, music teachers seem to
move away from me on the "Group W" bench) but my experience is that
beginners have to figure out that there's a beat there and they should
dance to it. In my experience, the opportunity for this comes after
the beginner has some brain power left over from just remembering what
the call just heard from the caller means.
But a bigger challenge in the DC area seems to be not recognizing
beat but following the musical phrase. This typically comes when an
"old-time" band is hired to play for dancers used to tunes (typically
"New England" or Irish) that have strongly emphasized phrases. At
those dances, you'll often find dancers dancing to the beat, but
drifting off the phrases.
Old-time music is one of my favorite styles to play, but dancing
contras to it is pretty much a separate learned skill.
Bruce Henderson, Wallace NC
S Miskoe
do I find that the bands don't emphasize the phrases as much as the bands
playing New England music.
Sylvia Miskoe, Concord, NH
don ward
Which is more important to take one step to each beat of music or to come
out even with the phrase??
I really dont care if a person takes 6 or 8 steps if they are in right
place on the first count for the next movement.
I have danced and called to bands that had lots of "beat" but no one could
find the "phrase" it was all played as one long sequence of notes.
To me as a caller and dancer I want a distinct phrase that cannot be lost.
don ward
--
---
don ward <dwa...@earthlink.net>
Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr
Well, sure, for contra and English. (I'd like it for squares, too, but in
Southern squares it's not guaranteed that movements are going to come out
even with phrases.) I'd also like it for couple dances, for that matter,
but the rhythm is at least equally important there.
In footwork-centered folk dance (Balkan, for example) it's most important to
get the rhythm right.
Horses for courses, as they say.
-- Alan
===============================================================================
Alan Winston --- WIN...@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056
Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA 94025
===============================================================================
Isiafs5
>Which is more important to take one step to each beat of music or to come
>out even with the phrase??
For line dancing, I think most important thing is to follow the leader and to
not tug uncomfortably upon the dancers next to you. Secondary is to get your
feet with the beat. Third, for the experienced dance is the kind of hand
bopping. The phrase is the leaders concern.
Sling Skate
Buy ALTOIDS!!! Thanks for the support UK.
David Millstone
seeming to hear the beat-- I thought immediately of a long post that
Vicktoria Bestock made several years ago to the English Country Dance
list on the same subject. She gave me permission to send along her
comments, which are appended below.
Vicky also wrote, "The short answer is that everyone hears the beat,
and dancing to it can be learned by almost everybody. Contra dancers
don't dance to the music because they haven't been taught to.
"Since then [1999] I've come up with one more reason a person might
hear the beat and not dance to it and that is that they can think about
only one thing at a time. So if they are thinking about the dance
pattern, they can't match the beat, but if they JUST think about the
beat, (or if the dance is a no-brainer) they can.
"But while most people can learn to dance to the beat in time, EVERYONE
can dance to the phrase of the music. And they can do it the first
time they go dancing. I taught children for over 20 years of my 34
year dance-teaching career, and every kid over 5 learned to dance to
the musical phrase in lesson one. Of course that is because the FOCUS
of lesson one was "The music tells you what to do" and the dances were
chosen to teach that skill.
"If contra dancers don't dance to the phrase, its because they haven't
been taught to, or have been taught the wrong things by well-meaning
callers (who teach them to count instead of to listen to the music) or
because good dancing isn't part of why they dance-- its to meet people
and dance skills are secondary and even unimportant to them."
The text of Victoria's original post follows. Enjoy.
David Millstone
====
There has been some discussion on dancing to the beat, with several
people suggesting that some people don't "feel" the beat, and some hear
it "differently."
When I started teaching folk dance full time, I did believe that some
people just didn't have a sense of rhythm. I thought that those who
didn't hear the beat couldn't learn, and those who heard it, but didn't
move to it, could improve, so I started testing students to see which
problem they had. In order to eliminate coordination, momentum and
balance problems from the mix, I had students clap to the beat and if
they couldn't do that, speak or make a vocal noise on the beat. Every
single person, including one kid with cerebral palsy, passed. They all
heard the beat.
So experience taught me that there are several problems getting in
their way, but HEARING the beat is not one of them. Everyone hears the
beat if they listen for it (some dancers think of music as glorified
background noise-- they could hear the beat if they tried but they
don't-- this is a different issue).
1) Dancers need to understand that what we mean by dancing on the beat
is FINISHING a movement on the beat. Some dancers hear the beat, then
move in response. They think they are dancing on the beat because they
are listening for it and responding to it, but their footfalls are
inevitably after the beat. They need to change their thinking about
what we mean by dancing on the beat, planning ahead to have the foot
touch on the beat, instead of starting the movement then. This is more
common than you think. Knowing what is expected (ending the movement on
the beat) plus practice can fix this.
2) Walking requires leaning forward so you are slightly off balance,
moving one leg forward, and catching yourself from falling just on the
beat. This takes timing and coordination, and is a learned skill. Most
of us have a lot of experience getting the feel of how much lean to do
so that we don't step too soon or too late, and those of us who started
being exposed to music and dance very young don't realize that it isn't
innate becaue we learned it so young. But some adult beginners are
trying this for the first time. They aren't successful initially, but
will learn to do it with practice.
3) Some dancers have poor posture and poor body mechanics. They don't
have their weight centered, so they can't change direction easily. They
are often falling in the wrong direction, having to take extra steps to
keep from falling forward, or they are starting backwards too late
because they haven't adjusted their posture to account for momentum. To
change direction, one actually leans (from the ankles, not bendingthe
body) slightly in the opposite direction from the way one is moving,
reducing the momentum in the old direction, timing this so that the
body comes to a point of balance exactly at the phrase end, and starts
falling int he new direction at the beginning of the next phrase.
Beginners don't do this. They lean into the direction they are going,
and it takes some extra time to change direction-- they are late
because they are shifting their body weight and overcoming momentum.
They go forward a double and it takes 5 1/2 steps before they can start
moving backwards. As they gain better posture and more experience, they
can work all this out, and they dance in time. For direction changes
(e.g. up a double and back) I used to help students speed up the
process by telling them to "hang themselves up by the hair" leaving
their body more or less where it was, and moving their feet underneath.
This image reduced the upper body lurching in each direction and
enabled them to change direction more efficiently.
4) Some dancers have sluggish coordination. IT takes a LONG time for
the signal from the brain to move the feet, so they think about doing
the motion and the beat passes them by before they actually do it. They
are likely to take 13 steps on a 16 beat phrase-- they can't move fast
enough.
For a long time I thought this problem was fatal to dancing in time--
that it was the one thing that couldn't be overcome. Then Maggie signed
up for beginning folk dance. And intermediate. And advanced. She took
my class for two full years, dancing 45 minutes a day, 4 days a week.
Maggie was a painfully shy 11 year old with very slow coordination and
some learning disabilities. She didn't seem to get anything out of the
demonstration and instruction, moving in the correct direction, but not
distinguishing what kinds of steps were being used, or seeing which
foot to start on. She learned the sequences with many mistakes that had
to be slowly unlearned. She was also very slow in coordination, and
never danced in time to music. After a year, Maggie could learn dances
by watching and listening without help, but her reaction time was still
slow and she was usually behind the beat, and she took too few steps
per phrase. I gave her the clue of watching the other dancers, and
mirroring them to try to stay in time, and this really helped. She
started getting the feel of how far ahead she had to plan in order to
match her classmates by using her eyes instead of her ears.
In the middle of the second year she and her best friend, who was a
very fine dancer, both fell in love with Irish dancing, ("Vicky, we
found our village! And it零 in Ireland!") and I taught the good dancer
a solo jig to perform at Folklife while the rest of the class changed
costumes between dances. She was afraid to perform it solo, though, and
asked if Maggie could do it with her. Oi! I had grave doubts about
Maggie's ability to move her feet fast enough for Irish jigs, but I
said yes, as long as you can look like twins when you do it. They ran
off hand in hand. They must have cut classes and lunch and homework and
sleep to put in enough practice time, but at the end of the week, two
days before Folklife, they were both perfect, and identical. That
noontime the good dancer sprained her ankle, and Maggie, who two years
earlier had looked as though she was rhythmically hopeless, danced a
solo Irish jig with rapid-fire footwork for 400 people, in perfect
time! IT was a personal as well as a dance victory for this shy,
uncoordinated kid. I've never been more proud of a student.
So I learned from Maggie that a "poor" beginner can turn into a good
dancer given enough time and motivation and a secure environment where
she won't get discouraged. I had just never seen someone initially so
poor at dancing stay with it for long enough to get good, so I'd always
thought it wasn't possible.
I no longer believe there are people who don't hear the beat. I think
there are people who don't listen to it. I think there are people who
haven't encountered callers who explain what they need to do to
improve. I think there are people who aren't motivated to improve. I
think there are people who think moving to the beat means "now I hear
it, then I move." I think there are beginners who need some experience
to work on their posture and balance. I think there are people with
slow coordination who have to plan far ahead to get through all the
movements necessary to take each step, and make it land on time. And I
think there are disabled people whose bodies won't respond in a
predictable manner and who will never dance on the beat due to damage
from stroke or cerebral palsy. But if you have them recite poetry to
music, they can. So now I think that everybody HEARS the beat. And
almost all of them can learn to dance to it.
Now how do we motivate them to do it?
Vicky Bestock
<best...@oz.net>
Dave Goldman
Millstone <mill...@valley.no_spam.net> wrote:
> Vicky also wrote...
>
> "If contra dancers don't dance to the phrase, its because they haven't
> been taught to, or have been taught the wrong things by well-meaning
> callers (who teach them to count instead of to listen to the music)...
Hear hear!
I wish that callers would keep all talk of "counts" to themselves. The
time it takes to do an allemande isn't "4 counts", but rather "this much
music".
Seattle's Derek Booth always used to play phrases on his concertina as he
taught each figure. It was totally clear how much time you had for each
move, and he never had to say anything about timing.
If you're one of the majority of callers who doesn't play an instrument
while teaching the dance, then I'd strongly suggest working this sort of
thing out in advance with one of your melody musicians. Having one player
accompany the dance teaching, starting and stopping at phrase ends as
appropriate, works quite well for English Country Dance. (I don't recall
ever experiencing this with a contra caller -- has anybody tried it?)
The end result is dancers who are humming the tune to themselves as you
encounter them, rather than romantically whispering in your ear "One, two,
three, four..." during every swing.
- Dave Goldman
Portland, OR
Karen M.
>...
> taught each figure. It was totally clear how much time you had for each
> move, and he never had to say anything about timing.
>
> If you're one of the majority of callers who doesn't play an instrument
> while teaching the dance, then I'd strongly suggest working this sort of
> thing out in advance with one of your melody musicians. Having one player
> accompany the dance teaching, starting and stopping at phrase ends as
> appropriate, works quite well for English Country Dance. (I don't recall
> ever experiencing this with a contra caller -- has anybody tried it?)
Wild Asparagus used to/was doing this when I heard them last, but
it's been about 10 years. (As if the WA crowd needs a lot of help with
phrasing and beats.)
> The end result is dancers who are humming the tune to themselves as you
> encounter them, rather than romantically whispering in your ear "One, two,
> three, four..." during every swing.
Thank you so much. You've ruined two evenings dances for me; I
spent every swing thinking about this!!
Seriously, I plan to woodshed on phrasing with my next batch of
Civil War or beginner dancers.
--Karen M.
The Martins
message news:dave-03010...@ip60.164-173-207.eli-du.nwlink.com...
> I wish that callers would keep all talk of "counts" to themselves. The
> time it takes to do an allemande isn't "4 counts", but rather "this much
> music".
I'm sure I'll be in the minority here. Some of the callers who I admire
most, and consider to be mentors of sorts, don't vocalize counts but instead
play or sing the melody scraps while the dancers go through the move. Over
time I came to agree with that, but I've gradually changed me mind again.
Its my own experience that counting out one-two-three-FOUR while new dancers
first practice a longlinesforwardandback makes a huge difference in how
successfully they subsequently dance the figure. Its a way of really
emphasizing and illuminating just what a musical phrase is to people who are
new to the music. Especially at the kind of dances that I call, where much
of the dancing is to the beat and not the phrase and the musicians are not
necessarily experienced contra tune pickers.
Same goes with beginners and the courtesy turn figures. Its handy, and way
more useful, to have that much of the music played or whistled while they do
the figure, but I still use a count over the top of the music to help them
define what a musical phrase is and how much is used for each part of the
figure. It also helps inexperienced dance musicians to understand the
connection between the movements of the dancers and the musical phrase. I
don't see much difference between a muscian counting beats while learning
and a dancer counting beats while learning.
If God commanded me to choose between playing the musical phrase or counting
it out, I'd choose the tune sans count hands down. But I can't deny the
evidence before my eyes that for some figures, especially precise movements
like longlines,etc, that my counting out loud helps new dancers to connect
with the musical phrase.
Bill Martin
Jonathan Sivier
>If God commanded me to choose between playing the musical phrase or counting
>it out, I'd choose the tune sans count hands down. But I can't deny the
>evidence before my eyes that for some figures, especially precise movements
>like longlines,etc, that my counting out loud helps new dancers to connect
>with the musical phrase.
This also depends to some degree on the dancers. Different people learn
in different ways and what works well for one person won't work for the
next. When I first started I could not hear the phrasing of the music.
This may have been because I was unaware of it, or it may have had to do
with the fact that old-time music as played in the midwest is less well
phrased than some other forms of music commonly used for contra dances.
I had no trouble hearing the beat, but could not distinguish the different
phrases, even after I was clued into the fact that they were there. So
when I was starting out I would count, to myself. I knew that a figure took
8 beats and that there was one step per beat so by counting I knew when the
next figure was supposed to start. Thus I was always on time for the next
figure and got a reputation as being a good dancer even though I barely
knew what I was doing. Over time I became more accustomed to the music
and began to hear the phrases and stopped counting. I still use this
as a tool when the music is muddy or for one reason or another the phrases
are indistinct or I become confused as to where the phrasing is, but
in general I can just listen to the music.
When I started calling I went back to counting at first, because listening
to the music to hear the phrasing was too much workload when trying to do
several new things, such as thinking about the dance, calling the figures,
watching the dancers for problems, etc. As I became more comfortable and
confident with these tasks I was able to go back to listening to the music
and using the phrasing.
I think that when people are trying to learn something new, i.e. a new
dance form, they can easily be overloaded by too many different tasks. The
same phenomenon can be seen when you are driving in a strange city trying
to find an address or street you are supposed to turn on. While you may
play the radio all the time when driving at home, here you may turn off
the radio, because it is now a distraction as you try to do this new,
unfamiliar task.
When I'm teaching new dancers I let them know about the phrasing of
the music and try to use that as much as possible, but if they have trouble
I encourage them to count to themselves. Some people, perhaps those with
a musical background, have no trouble hearing the phrasing and are able
to use it right away. Others have trouble with that, as I did, when
starting out and if counting the beats can help them then I'm in favor
of it.
Jonathan
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Dave Goldman
<jf...@jf8us.com> wrote:
> Its my own experience that counting out one-two-three-FOUR while new dancers
> first practice a longlinesforwardandback makes a huge difference in how
> successfully they subsequently dance the figure. ...
>...
> If God commanded me to choose between playing the musical phrase or counting
> it out, I'd choose the tune sans count hands down. But I can't deny the
> evidence before my eyes that for some figures, especially precise movements
> like longlines,etc, that my counting out loud helps new dancers to connect
> with the musical phrase.
Hmm. Well, I'll never argue with experimental evidence! Though maybe I've
got a hybrid for you to consider...
When I find myself sitting at my piano while a caller is teaching a Grand
Square, when the walk through thereof actually commences I will often play
an eight-step (eight-count) bass-register scale upwards and then downwards
(and then repeat for the "reverse" Grand Square). It's the equivalent of
counting out the beats, except there are no numbers mentioned and everyone
can feel the end of the octave approaching as a signal of when they're
supposed to finish each half of the figure.
Bill, maybe sometime you could try doing this with your bass while you
teach these figures? (For a four-count figure, you could do a little
one-octave arpeggio instead of a scale.)
Mean Green Dancing Machine
Dave Goldman <da...@remove-this-bit-ResearchSoftwareDesign.com> wrote:
>
>Seattle's Derek Booth always used to play phrases on his concertina as he
>taught each figure. It was totally clear how much time you had for each
>move, and he never had to say anything about timing.
>
>If you're one of the majority of callers who doesn't play an instrument
>while teaching the dance, then I'd strongly suggest working this sort of
>thing out in advance with one of your melody musicians. Having one player
>accompany the dance teaching, starting and stopping at phrase ends as
>appropriate, works quite well for English Country Dance. (I don't recall
>ever experiencing this with a contra caller -- has anybody tried it?)
Ewwwwww!!!!! Speaking as a hearing-impaired person, this is one reason
I stopped going to one of the local English dances (haven't tried the
other one yet). It's difficult enough with square dancing where there's
a controlled vocabulary, but trying to listen to an explanation while
music is playing is nearly impossible.
--
--- Aahz <*> (Copyright 2003 by aa...@pobox.com)
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 http://www.rahul.net/aahz/
Androgynous poly kinky vanilla queer het Pythonista
"Perhaps God rewards martyrs, but life seldom does..." --Ulrika O'Brien
Dave Goldman
starts her beginner workshops before a contradance.
She has everyone stand in a big circle, facing the center. A fiddler
standing nearby plays a simple, well-phrased contra tune.
To the music, everyone steps in place to the beat. Thus learning that one
beat equals one step. At the start of each four-bar phrase (the top of A1,
halfway through A1, the top of A2, etc), everyone claps. Thus learning
what and how long a phrase is.
The whole thing takes about three minutes. Then as she goes on to teach
some basic figures, these are again done to the fiddler's playing.
No counting at all. With very little effort, the beginning dancers are
dancing to the music, doing their figures to the phrases.
I think that's a wonderful way to start newcomers dancing.