Paying percentage of gate
Cynthia M. Van Ness
Hi, gang,
Beleagured dance organizer here. Attendance is dropping; expenses have
not. So I wondered if any dance groups out there pay performers based on
the receipts at the gate. Let me illustrate.
Say that your group takes in only $250 at the gate and your hall rent is a
fixed $50 per night. You pay your rent, leaving $200 to divide between
caller, band, and the house. It might look like this:
60% to band (or $120)
35% to caller (or $75)
5% to house (or $10, which will cover paper cups, napkins, etc., for
refreshments)
Obviously, you can rearrange the percentages. If the dance has fabulous
attendance, then everyone shares the wealth. If the hall is half-empty,
everyone shares the pain, but at least the dance group's survival is
insured without the organizers dipping in to their own wallets (we've been
down that road and we don't want to go there again).
Comments? Especially from callers and musicians?
*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:**:-.,_,.-*
Cynthia Van Ness, MLS, af...@bfn.org / http://cynthia.is-online.net
"People don't resist change, they resist being changed."
--Gerard Nierenberg
Dan Pearl
Cynthia M. Van Ness <af...@bfn.org> wrote:
>Beleagured dance organizer here. Attendance is dropping; expenses have
>not. So I wondered if any dance groups out there pay performers based on
>the receipts at the gate.
>Obviously, you can rearrange the percentages. If the dance has fabulous
>attendance, then everyone shares the wealth. If the hall is half-empty,
>everyone shares the pain, but at least the dance group's survival is
>insured without the organizers dipping in to their own wallets (we've been
>down that road and we don't want to go there again).
Oh, goody! An adminstration question!
There are many financial models that one could embrace. When a series is
doing well (making its "nut" -- going into the black) you can do almost
whatever you want, as long as people don't feel as though they're being
taken advantage of.
At the Cambridge MA NEFFA dance, our series is running in the black. Our
complex pay formula has these characteristics:
* We start with a generous guarantee ($125 for each of 4 performers)
and work up.
* The house is prepared to go in the hole in case of poor
attendance for whatever reason.
* Most of the money taken in for large crowds goes to the
performers, as it is likely the performers that night that
drew in the crowd.
* If there are more performers than 4, the amount of money for
performers doesn't go up linearly (for example, each of 5 performers
will take less money than if there were 4 performers).
The most salient point is the second bullet. This says that you should
budget for the series more than the particular evening, and that performers
shouldn't be penalized if there is bad weather or breaking news that keeps
people home.
When the series is running in the red over the course of the season, you
need to make hard choices. Does the admission fee need raising? Does
the split need tinkering? Should the whole pay scale be lowered?
In your case, Cynthia, I'd look at raising the house percentage on
good evenings, and put that money into the "rainy day fund". Once you
have some money in the bank, you have an economic flywheel to keep your
dance running through the lean periods, and the confidence to pay
performers more money for simply "average" evenings.
Good luck!
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dan Pearl ** Stratus Computer, Inc.
I represent the views of my employer. [*WHAP!*] NO HE DOESN'T
Deb Karl
Dan is citing an example of a dance (Thursday night NEFFA contra in
Cambridge) which I understand is *very* well attended, hence the high
guarantees. I believe some of the other (not as highly attended)
regular dances in the Boston area follow the model of pay the hall, then
divvy up the remainder amongst the performers (at least that's what it
looks like...others may need to correct me)
Then you get into the issue of what you can do to counter the dropping
attendance, etc etc etc.
Good luck. I hope you can figure out a model that works well for all
concerned in your dance community.
--Deb Karl
Karen M.
... I wondered if any dance groups out there pay performers based on
the receipts at the gate.
AFAIK every dance in SE Mich does. Some offer a guarantee of a
certain amount based on how far the talent is traveling, how much
extra is in the treasury, and so on. But for the house band and
same-old caller, it seems to be a percentage of that night's reciepts.
Good way to kill a dance series: have the organizers pay for the
talent. "Not only do you get to volunteer your time, but also your
dollars!" This ain't public radio--change it--fast!
--Karen M.
Russ Johnson
it is a Band-Aid approach. The path to a sustainable dance community is to
constantly work at bringing new dancers in, making them feel comfortable
enough to return, and providing some challenges to keep veteran dancers
interested.
A couple quick strategies we've had luck with:
Co-sponsor a dance with the local public radio station for better publicity.
Reach out to local singles groups, especially those sponsored by churches.
Do demo dances at local fairs (Earth Day, May Day, Arts Fest, Sidewalk Sale
Days, etc.) and for school and church groups.
Give each new dancer a free pass to come back (chance to get hooked).
Check in with new dancers during the break to let them know they are doing
well and it will get easier with experience.
Give all your members a free pass to bring a guest, and hold a special new
dancer workshop.
Address any bad behavior problems that may be giving the wrong message to
new dancers.
Issue an open invitation to repair to a local restaurant after the dance for
drinks or ice-cream and invite new people out as a relationship building
strategy.
Hold a challenging dance workshop to inspire veteran dancers.
Hold an occasional workshop on waltz, schottische, hambo to keep up the
challenge level.
Follow a workshop with a pot luck dinner as a community building strategy.
Hold callers workshop series to create local callers and have a "home grown"
or "open mic" night once per season (challenges veteran dancers and reduces
expenses) .
Hold a musicians workshop series to start a pick-up band and have them play
once per season (challenges veteran dancers and reduces expenses).
Celebrate special events such as anniversary of your founding, special
holidays to add zest for veteran dancers.
Go to twice-monthly or weekly, if you are only a monthly dance (gets new
dancers back before they forget).
Once a year hold a mini-festival (4 bands, 4 callers, 12 hours) or a "double
dance" (afternoon, potluck, evening) with one really good band with name
draw (OK to pay them a guarantee and percentage) to attract some out-of-area
dancers and elevate the quality of your dancers (and keep veterans happy).
There are a couple of obvious things you are probably doing, but must be
regular about and must expand to new audiences such as website, email
reminder list, quarterly postcards to mailing list, flyers all around town,
etc.
Regarding that percentage: we decided that no band should suffer because of
our lack of publicity or bad weather and we pay the same flat fee to all our
bands and callers.
Russ Johnson-Valley Contra Dance, Bethlehem, PA
"Cynthia M. Van Ness" <af...@bfn.org> wrote in message
news:GLLwL...@freenet.buffalo.edu...
David Smukler
What we do (and I believe is commonly done) is to combine two approaches
(guaranteed fees and "profit sharing"). We have a guaranteed minimum that
performers will make and we are always willing to lose money on a given
evening to make good that guarantee. Our formula for the guarantees is
somewhat complex; they increase with the distance a perfomer is travelling.
After paying the guarantees and taking out rent costs we keep $35 dollars for
ourselves (unless there is less than $35 remaining, in which case we take
whatever it is). If any money still remains we share it with the performers.
They get 80% and we get 20% of the excess.
After a while the little $35 hits add up and create a cushion that allows us
to avoid panic when we lose money in order to meet the guarantee. When good
attendance swells the pot, the performers benefit most.
Like you we have a fairly small dance. On an average night we generally draw
between 35-45 dancers. This means that our guarantees are fairly small also.
There's no magic amount. We adjust the guarantees according to our records of
how much the dance makes over longish periods of time, comparing one year to
another so that we can give most of the money we take in back to performers,
but run in the black. We are fortunate to have many generous performers who
are willing to come for the smallish fees we can offer.
Three more things. First, our board has given me some flexibility to offer
higher guarantees. I use this for performers that we are especially
interested in that I know we could not entice here for our usual guarantee,
especially those who are trying to make a living from their craft (no easy
task!). Secondly, I try to make a point of telling performers upfront about
the money stuff. Many say they don't care, but I'm more comfortable paying
stingily when someone's been warned. Finally, our local performers are all
wonderfully supportive of the dance, and regularly agree to accept less money
in order to pay travellers more. We certainly do not require this of anyone!
However, the local performers like the idea - partly because they are truly
generous souls, and also because it allows them to work with some fun people
and keeps our local dance healthier financially so that it can stay around as
a venue for them.
We'd love to build attendance such that we could pay more. Overall, with some
ups and downs, this has been happening, but at an agonizingly slow rate. I
remember that we averaged 25 for years. It's taken aobut the last 5 years to
get to an average of 40 or so. Given the size of our current hall, I think
we'd like to bring in 70-80....
Good luck!
David
Phil G-E
>
> Beleagured dance organizer here. Attendance is dropping; expenses have
> not. So I wondered if any dance groups out there pay performers based on
> the receipts at the gate. Let me illustrate.
>
> Say that your group takes in only $250 at the gate and your hall rent is a
> fixed $50 per night. You pay your rent, leaving $200 to divide between
> caller, band, and the house. It might look like this:
>
> 60% to band (or $120)
> 35% to caller (or $75)
> 5% to house (or $10, which will cover paper cups, napkins, etc., for
> refreshments)
>
>
As a brand new dance community, GO Dancing! (Goshen Old-time Dancing
in Goshen, IN) is going to try the following formula:
40% to the band
30% to the caller
30% to the house
Our rent is $50. Volunteers will provide refreshments. The band will
(almost always) have their own sound system. Money going to the house
will be used for helping to establish our non-profit status through
CDSS membership. After that, we'll use those funds towards hiring
out-of-town talent and other organizational expenses. If we wind up
with consistantly good attendance, we may decrease the amount
allocated to the house. At least, that's our plan for now. We'll see
what reality brings us!
Our first dance will be held Saturday, November 3rd with the Dan
Gellert Old-Time Dance Band and Barry Dupen calling.
http://homepage.mac.com/philg2/GoDancing.html
-Phil
Cynthia M. Van Ness
Great ideas, Russ, and we're already using using some of them. You're
drafted to help out with the rest. :)
Les Francey
>
> Great ideas, Russ, and we're already using using some of them.
I think Cynthia is being modest. As I looked over Russ' list, it seemed
to me that Cynthia's group is doing *most* of the things Russ
suggested. In fact ,I have commented to Cynthia that the dance community her
group has created is a very welcoming and enjoyable atmosphere that
whatever she is doing as an organizor, she is doing the right thing. If you
look over Russ' list you will see many of the things that are the right
things.
But for whatever reason, although Cynthia's group does so many of the
right things, there is not financial stability.
I like the ideas I have seen about sharing the gate. This ensures that
the organization always gets a few bucks. Unfortunately in those schemes,
the musicians lose a few dollars at each gig. OTOH, if the organizors
can't keep the group going, the musicians will lose another venue at which
they can play the music they like to play before a live and appreciative
audience. I wonder how important that is to the musicians in the contra
dance world.
So here is a question ( although unfair and perhaps unanswerable) to
dance musicians: What is more important at a dance gig; the money? or the
playing before a live, appreciative audience the music you want to play?
Les Francey
Bob Stein
"Les Francey" <lfra...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> So here is a question ( although unfair and perhaps unanswerable) to
> dance musicians: What is more important at a dance gig; the money? or the
> playing before a live, appreciative audience the music you want to play?
Well....it depends.
If it's a wedding, or a private party, where most of the dancers don't
dance, the money is the motivating factor for me. These gigs are
usually the *least* fun for me; I don't get the sense that the music is
doing anything for the dancers (they are often not paying attention to
it, or don't understand it) and I then don't get the feedback I like
that helps me fine tune my playing in response.
Sometimes, a small community dance with appreciative dancers is just the
ticket. The relationship between musician and dancer is more intimate
and personal, and more satisfying than the above situation.
Sometimes, playing for a local regional festival or with our pick-up
band is even more satisfying, because of the energy created, the
interactions between the musicians, and knowing your helping support
your local community. These are mostly free gigs, so money is no object
here.
However, I do not like to travel 70 miles to a small, struggling dance
and then get paid $15--$25 for 3 hours of work. That kind of money
seems insulting somehow. I'd almost rather do a benefit now and then
for a dance that is in poor financial condition.
-Bob S
--
--
Bob Stein, squ...@voicenet.com
http://www.voicenet.com/~squeeze
"This computer makes me all frowny with pure nougat-filled hatred!"
- Jhonen Vasquez, on the joys of high technology
David Smukler
around this question. I find his way of thinking helpful for me as a performer.
It helps me decide whether or not I'm willing to do a particular gig as my life
gets more and more busy. Bob's example of the "local regional festival" is an
instance of playing for love, and his example of the wedding one of playing for
money. Either one could motivate me, but in the absence of both I could feel
exploited. I would add a third - experience. Newer performers especially can
legitimately be motivated to play almost anywhere for almost any price, because
there is no substitute for real-life dance situations for learning our craft. And
even when we gain more expertise, certain experience may prove worth it to us
because of their novelty or uniqueness. (I'll always remember the great times
I've had calling for that nudist dance....)
David Smukler
Nancy Mamlin
I was discussing this question some years ago with a friend of mine who
makes his living solely through gigs-- and does quite well, in fact. Anyway,
as he said, there are gigs that feed your soul, and gigs that feed your
stomach. You need both.
Now, I do like calling/playing for weddings a great deal, but I also charge
more for them. It's (usually) a one-time thing, and there is no community
there aside from the one created at the moment. For a regular, weekly dance,
I don't mind playing for a percentage of the gate, if that's the way
everyone gets paid. Most dances around here have a minimum that they'll pay
callers/musicians, and it's up to me to decide if I'm willing to do it based
on the minimum. F'rinstance, I just did a gig last week- on a weeknight, two
hours from my home, for $65. It's a fun dance for me to call, I liked the
band I was working with, and they'll have me back on a semi-regular basis.
So, it's worth it to have an excuse to go hang out with friends, and luckily
my job will allow me to make such a trip in the middle of the week.
On the other hand, I was just called by a local church who wanted to have an
"event" which no amount of money in the world could have gotten me to. Now,
I do church events all the time, and love them, but that's when I can bring
my own musicians. They wanted me to use the musicians who play for their
church services. I couldn't convince the guy who called that, while I'm sure
these are "fine musicians", that they needed to be able to play stringband
music to work for the evening.... So, even though it was just 15 minutes
from home, I had to turn them down.
I guess the long and short of it is that I know I'm not making (much) money
at this venture, but I feel I do have a talent that should somehow be
appreciated-- either by money or enthusiasm or hopefully both. For each
individual gig it depends on who the band is, who the crowd is, where the
crowd is, and whether or not someone knowledgeable will likely be running
the sound system.
Nancy
"Bob Stein" <squ...@voicenet.com> wrote in message
news:squeeze-447ECF...@netnews.voicenet.com...
Dave Goldman
Another payment approach that I don't recall seeing mentioned in this
thread (though I definitely could have missed it, as I haven't been
reading everything closely) has recently been adopted by the small English
country dance series here in Portland. (I have the impression that they
got the idea from somewhere else.)
At each gig there is a small but real payment made to each musician and
caller. This is currently $25 -- that's exactly $25, regardless of
attendance, high or low. (All the musicians and callers are locals in our
case.)
At the end of the year, total expenses (hall rental, sound rental [free in
our case] plus all those $25 payments) are subtracted from total income.
If the result is negative, the organizing group eats it. But if the result
is positive, then a check will be mailed to each musician and caller who
has participated in the series during the year. The amount of the check
will be proportional to the number of dances that that person played or
called.
One rationale here is that when you routinely have only a small number of
attendees, there are a lot of fluctuations in attendance from week to week
that have nothing to do with the "draw" of a particular performer's name.
In theory, this method promises to keep the series afloat, while keeping
the local musicians and callers happy to continue to perform. Check back
with me in a year or so and I'll let you know how it works out in
practice.
- Dave Goldman
Portland, OR
myra
Dave. We usually run in the black nowadays, though deficit years are
fresh enough in our memories that we don't want to take too many
risks. Therefore, we pay a more than nominal (though hardly generous)
fee to performers through the year. then, at the end of the season, we
divide our surplus among the bands (40%), callers (20%), donation to
the church where we hold our dances ($20%) and the group's slush fund
((20%). The band and caller amounts are prorated among the performers
based on number of times they've performed.
We pay the same amount to all performers, regardless of gate, since we
have found that, even with generally high attendance (80-100 people at
most dances) the number of attendees can vary widely with the weather,
holidays, and lots of other mystical circumstances that have nothing
to do with who is performing.
da...@rsd-erase-this-bit.com (Dave Goldman) wrote in message news:<dave-29100...@ip72.r1.d.pdx.nwlink.com>...
Karen M.
> So here is a question ( although unfair and perhaps unanswerable) to
> dance musicians: What is more important at a dance gig; the money? or the
> playing before a live, appreciative audience the music you want to play?
I polled my favorite fiddle player, Jim McKinney, who heads the
Golden Griffon Stringtet here in metro Dee-troit.
"You know my answer to that question. The gig. I would play for free
just to play for dancers."
And he's driven hundreds of miles to do it, too.
--Karen M.
Ok, ok! It's www.goldengriffonstringtet.com.
Russ Johnson
appeal for charitable donations. We do this through a letter to our
members. We have doctors, lawyers, small business owners, professors,
corporate executives and bank officers attending our dances who can afford
to give a little more than the $7 we charge at the door. The strategy is to
set a special goal each year and target their contributions to that. We
spend $34 in stamps and get $400 in contributions of $25, 50 or 100. Adapt
the sample letter below to your own use. Or share a successful model you
have used with the newsgroup.
Print Date
Name
Address
City, State Zip
Dear Name,
Thank you for being a member of the Valley Contra Dance Society in our fifth
year of holding Contra Dances for the Lehigh Valley. I'm writing to report
our accomplishments over the past year and ask for your continued support.
The mission of the Valley Contra Dance Society is not just to host the
regular Bethlehem Contra Dance on the second and fourth Saturdays of each
month. It is also to build a sense of community, promote folk life, educate
on musical and dance traditions, and provide an entertainment option that is
smoke-free, alcohol-free, and family-friendly.
Here's what we have accomplished in the year 2000:
? Offered 22 successful evenings of contra dancing.
? Hosted regular "Valley Callers" nights to give our local dance callers the
opportunity perform;
? Co-sponsored the annual WDIY Radio Night in support of our local public
radio station;
? Held "One Step Beyond," our annual Really Big Dance that bringing a famous
band and caller to our humble dance hall;
? Provided dance workshops/demonstrations for school and community groups;
? Supported the regional Heritage Dance Festival; and,
? Partnered with the Princeton, Yardley and Glenside dance communities to
create the new 12-hour "Butterball" featuring four bands and four callers.
Our most important achievement this year, however, has been success in our
year 2000 goal to grow and energize our community by encouraging new
dancers. Average attendance has reached an all time high this year, with a
maximum attendance of nearly 100 dancers at many dances.
You, as a member, have helped with this by reaching out cheerfully to steer
new dancers in the right direction. You have helped by asking complete
strangers to be your partner. You have helped by introducing non-dancing
friends to the joys and challenges of Contra. Your energetic dancing,
enthusiastic clapping, and friendliness have helped new dancers enjoy their
first evening enough to return and become regular members of our community.
We have a new special goal for 2001: to purchase a sound system. We have
been renting and depending on the kind donation of Terry Mutchler's system
up until now. Buying our own system will be a step in assuring our
self-reliance, reducing our expenses and reducing the burden on Terry. The
cost of a complete system is nearly $5,000. The good news is that we are
almost half-way there already!
To start 2001 off right, I want to personally ask you to make an
end-of-the-year gift towards the sound system. Your gift to Valley Contra is
tax deductible as we are a 501-(c) (3) charitable organization.
Your gift in ANY amount will help us reach this important goal. Think of it
as buying a microphone, a speaker, or that important connecting cable. You,
personally, will be responsible for the great sound you hear in years to
come. If you appreciate that Valley Contra provides three hours of dancing
and live music for the price of a 90-minute movie, perhaps you'll consider
giving a gift equal to $10 per month. If you think about dancing every day,
as I do, perhaps you can afford a gift equal to a dollar a day.
If you can make a tax-deductible charitable contribution to Valley Contra
before this year ends, please send your contribution to:
Valley Contra Dance Society,
<treasurer's address>>
On behalf of our whole community and the dance committee, thank you for your
continuing support as we enter our sixth year. See you out there on the
dance floor.
Sincerely,
Russ Johnson,
President, Valley Contra Dance Society
Deb Karl
dependent on being a 501(c)(3) charitable organization (meaning you've
filed the appropriate papers with the IRS & been so classified), as
Russ' Valley Contra Dance Society and many other dance organizations
are. If, however, the dance organizers aren't operating under the
auspices of a 501(c)(3) organization, then they shouldn't be soliciting
tax-deductible contributions.
--Deb
Dan Pearl
Secretary of the Commonwealth (i.e. State) in order to do fundraising.
Marty Brenneis
and 8 or 10 for non members. (depending on the dance)
The door money is split between the organization and the performers
and sound operator. The sound person usually gets half of what a
caller gets.
Some questions for the group...
How do you pay your sound person?
Where does the gear come from?
What is your impression of how your dances sound?
Now I'm going to don my bunker gear.
Marty Brenneis
Bupkas Sound
Nancy Mamlin
If I read between the lines of your post correctly, I agree with you. I
think that in terms of who does sound for a dance, you usually get what you
pay for. Same may go with equipment, though that's not something I know as
much about. A couple of scenarios:
1. A dance community has just purchased new, very nice, sound equipment. I'm
to call the dance there. I've called there many many times for both that
dance community as well as church events, weddings, etc. I've done my own
sound there with old equipment, and there have at times been better
arrangements. However, this night with the new equipment, there were also
new sound people who confessed that "this is a new system and we've never
done this before". They also tried to make excuses like "this is a difficult
hall to do sound in", etc. I just let them fumble, but it really hurt the
dance. I could go on about that case, but I won't.
2. I used to be the organizer of the Sunday Night Dance in Glen Echo, MD. At
that time, the sound crew were a group of dedicated volunteers whose only
payment was free admission to all the dances. Some were good, some were not.
I started surveying bands and asking if they would give up part of what they
made there to pay a sound person. For those who know, the pay is usually
pretty good at that dance, so in fact, no one gave up anything. I got
permission from the Board to add a budget item to pay sound people. These
were people involved in the community already in some capacity who also had
experience and knowledge doing sound. If you've ever been to the Spanish
Ballroom, you know that it's built for the big band sound, not for three and
four piece stringbands.... Anyway, the sound improved immediately, and the
only real problem I had was figuring out how one goes about firing a group
of volunteers, who are also your friends! Now, almost ten years later, they
are still paying sound people-- One of my proudest accomplishments while I
was in that position. The other was raising the minimum pay for the
musicians to match the minimum pay for the caller.
'Nuff said.
Nancy
"Marty Brenneis" <bup...@sparkology.com> wrote in message
news:3BE894C7...@sparkology.com...
David Smukler
(In the paying percentage thread...)
Nancy Mamlin wrote:
> Marty,
>
> If I read between the lines of your post correctly, I agree with you. I
> think that in terms of who does sound for a dance, you usually get what you
> pay for. Same may go with equipment, though that's not something I know as
> much about. A couple of scenarios:
>
> 1. A dance community has just purchased new, very nice, sound equipment. I'm
> to call the dance there. I've called there many many times for both that
> dance community as well as church events, weddings, etc. I've done my own
> sound there with old equipment, and there have at times been better
> arrangements. However, this night with the new equipment, there were also
> new sound people who confessed that "this is a new system and we've never
> done this before". They also tried to make excuses like "this is a difficult
> hall to do sound in", etc. I just let them fumble, but it really hurt the
> dance. I could go on about that case, but I won't.
An almost identical scenario happened to me once. Fortunately, the band was a
duo and their sound requirements extremely straightforward. Eventually, the
flustered sound folks got it together and the sound was acceptable.
Unfortunately, the flustered caller turned in a rather lukewarm performance
that evening (not only due to sound woes, I should say).
However, I remember an even more ignominious evening in which I was asked to
bring the sound equipment myself. The hall *was* difficult to do sound in (I
swear it) - very noisy, sandy floor amplifying the footfalls, and noisy rain on
the roof. The musicians were superb, but I struggled with the sound so visibly
that I got what felt like dozens of "helpful" suggestions through the evening
(a sound person's nightmare).
I snipped Nancy's other scenario about sound at Glen Echo (an appropriately
named site for a sound story ;-), but really appreciated it. We had a
remarkably talented and wonderfully non-defensive sound person at our recent
weekend event, and it helps enormously.
David Smukler
Richard Maurer
60% to band (or $120)
35% to caller (or $75)
5% to house (or $10, which will cover paper cups, napkins, etc., for
refreshments) >>
How much do the dancers get paid?
-- ---------------------------------------------
Richard Maurer To reply, remove half
Sunnyvale, California of the homonym of the synonym for also.
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