Endospink's TAP at Allison Acres
cindi
Let's put it this way: I am too exhausted to comment further. I'll
give you all my two cents when the feeling returns to my arms.
take care
cindi
Hunter
<alliso...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Let's put it this way: I am too exhausted to comment further. I'll
>give you all my two cents when the feeling returns to my arms.
Why were you doing that to the horse?
Hunter
cindi
> On Tue, 13 May 2008 23:02:05 -0700 (PDT), cindi
>
> >Let's put it this way: I am too exhausted to comment further. I'll
> >give you all my two cents when the feeling returns to my arms.
>
> Why were you doing that to the horse?
>
> Hunter
For fun, just like anything else I do with horses. :-) I don't
expect you to think it's fun; you've already said all you like to do
is ride. :-) Riding hurts me, pretty extremely, so I like to find
other stuff to do. Paul has his reasons - submission, trainability
afterwards. You've seen his videos yes? I wasn't doing it for that -
Rain is already submissive and trainable. I'd like to train her to
just do it on signal but this was her first time. We'll see how far I
get. I'm not super committed to it as there are certainly other
things I can spend my time doing. I spent about two sessions last
year working on training Pluto to bow, but I lost interest and got
busy. I guess that's the big problem running a boarding stable, that
there is so much that has to be done you don't have time to do
whatever fun stuff you want to try. Too bad my camera help didn't get
a head shot of her when she was down - sleepily chowing on grass.
Personally I found it much harder than it looks like it is for Paul;
he has been doing it for years though.
cindi
Kim
Good for you Cindi! She sure looks calm and trusting! And l love how
when she went down, she just went "hmmmm, might as well eat while I'm
down here". Your videographer was cracking me up, "um, am I done
now?..yawn" hehe
take some advil and celebrate.
Kim
Hunter
<alliso...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>For fun, just like anything else I do with horses. :-) I don't
>expect you to think it's fun; you've already said all you like to do
>is ride.
Well, I'd certainly rather ride than go out and push my horses over
onto the ground.
I like doing other stuff, like feeding and grooming and feeding
carrots and mushing with them.
Pushing them on the ground is fun?
I can't imagine why. Is it fun for the horse?
Hunter
cindi
> Pushing them on the ground is fun?
Getting a horse to do something she wouldn't ordinarily want to do is
fun, yes, for me.
Hopefully you realize I'm not pushing her onto the ground. I'm not
quite that strong. I'm activating her [wait, maybe I can't say what
is believed to be happening, since it's on the video you have to pay
for - I don't want to divulge any secrets...] At any rate, you do
these certain things and the horse lays down. You haven't watched the
endospink videos? They've been talked about a lot here. He does it
way better than I do, and he does it to put the horse in a learning
frame of mind for colt starting or problem horse retraining. So far I
just did it to see if I could.
> I can't imagine why. Is it fun for the horse?
More fun than some things people do with horses, less fun than other
things people do with horses. Rain seemed to like it. If you notice,
she got up only when I told her to, and she ate grass the whole time
she was down. I should have kept the video going for the afterglow...
She was pretty floppy eared and happy. But she's almost always like
that anyway so that's not saying much. You should watch the endospink
videos - you and he share a philosophy since he believes in getting on
and riding! He lays them down, then gets on them and off they go,
happily ever after, heh heh.
cindi
cindi
>
> Good for you Cindi! She sure looks calm and trusting! And l love how
> when she went down, she just went "hmmmm, might as well eat while I'm
> down here".
Oh thanks Kim. She's a good mare and a good one to start with. This
has made me even more in awe of how easy endospink makes it when he
does it. He takes these crazy terrified defensive dangerous horses
and gets them to lay down in a couple minutes tops, and they are much
bigger than Rain! Have you seen the Rogue Buster video? He makes it
look so easy. So I think I'm pulling too much... When the horse
starts to go down I think I need to let up a bit. I am going to
ponder on that for a while and try again. But not soon - we have an
extreme weather alert for temps in the 100s starting tomorrow! Ugh!
> Your videographer was cracking me up, "um, am I done
> now?..yawn" hehe
That was my Teenage Daughter. She is usually more horsey but she's
got a bad cold and everybody was getting eaten alive by gnats in that
field.
take care,
cindi
Bill Kambic
<airstrea...@geemail.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 14 May 2008 14:35:53 -0700 (PDT), cindi
><alliso...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>For fun, just like anything else I do with horses. :-) I don't
>>expect you to think it's fun; you've already said all you like to do
>>is ride.
>
>Well, I'd certainly rather ride than go out and push my horses over
>onto the ground.
I wondered about that, too.
Still, this can be a useful things to teach a horse. It could be
useful as a way to get an injured person up on the back of a horse for
transport back to help. The Cavalry taught it routinely as it allowed
a soldier to "reduce his visual profile" if that was necessary. It
also had a darker purpose, i.e., using the horse as a shield in a fire
fight on open ground. Nobody particularly liked to do that later
thing but it was there if necessary.
I don't think there was any big secret in the training technique,
though.
Ocean of Nuance
How does this work? Does it temporarily starve the brain of O2? If so,
my Pancake can't afford to damage or lose even one brain cell. LOL.
sharon
cindi
wrote:
> How does this work?
There are lots of different methods for training horses to lay down.
The NH clinicians do it with progressive training involving ropes and
hobbles. Trick trainers do it with rewarding successive
approximations which start out easily with taking weight off a leg,
then leaning, then a partial bow, then a full bow, etc etc etc.
Endospink simply does what you see him do in the videos and down they
go. Saves you from having to take all the time to train the
manuever. There is a physical thing that the vets he's worked with
think is happening but I'm not going to say what it is because I don't
think that would be fair to him for me to buy his video and then just
tell people for free what he tells the people who buy it. I'm sure
some other tactless person will spill the beans, though. I'm the
third person to put myself doing his TAP up on Youtube; people are
talking about it as if they discovered it themselves, so surely
somebody somewhere soon is going to say what the vets think is
happening. It's just not going to be me!
You can get some clues from watching his colt starting videos that are
free on Youtube.
> Does it temporarily starve the brain of O2? If so,
> my Pancake can't afford to damage or lose even one brain cell. LOL.
It doesn't do anything harmful. In most of the cases in which he uses
it, it's beneficial. Rain didn't need it for any training/behavioral
reasons but it would sure be fun to teach her to do it with a shorter
duration cue. In fact after I got her up and we stopped filming we
were like duh, Allison should have mounted her and then got her up - a
practical use. Maybe next time!
cindi
Ocean of Nuance
> There is a physical thing that the vets he's worked with
> think is happening but I'm not going to say what it is because I don't
> think that would be fair to him for me to buy his video and then just
> tell people for free what he tells the people who buy it.
Does it have to do with starving the brain of O2? It certainly looks
that way.
How do you know it doesn't or can't?
It should come with a warning about not doing it with horses who are
borderline "geniuses." LOL.
sharon
Bill Kambic
Remember that this is a secret, proprietary technique and you've got
to buy Endo's tape to get the proper technique.
That's their story and they're likely sticking to it.
Ocean of Nuance
Now I am no physiologist (CLEARLY!) but I don't think there is a wide
universe of possible explanations for this effect. The most obvious
appears to be that the blood supply to the brain is reduced. The next
most obvious is a Vulcan shoulder pinch type effect. :)
In any case, it sounds like the vets are speculating among themselves
about it. So it would be their opinion, not Endospink's opinion. We
can only hope Endo isn't attempting to pass off their intellectual
property as his own. Their opinion is as good as the next vet's
opinion. I'm going to try to get that next vet's opinion.
sharon
cindi
wrote:
> Now I am no physiologist (CLEARLY!) but I don't think there is a wide
> universe of possible explanations for this effect. The most obvious
> appears to be that the blood supply to the brain is reduced. The next
> most obvious is a Vulcan shoulder pinch type effect. :)
I thought it was endorphin release from some pain he was causing.
Like the Spock thing. But I guess not.
> In any case, it sounds like the vets are speculating among themselves
> about it. So it would be their opinion, not Endospink's opinion. We
> can only hope Endo isn't attempting to pass off their intellectual
> property as his own.
Heh heh, they are on the video, and I'm pretty sure they know about
it. And I wouldn't call it intellectual property and certainly not
the vet's intellectual property... If my vet comes out and is paid to
make a diagnosis or draw some blood or take some readings, I'm allowed
to tell people about the results without violation of intellectual
property laws.
> Their opinion is as good as the next vet's
> opinion. I'm going to try to get that next vet's opinion.
Cool, do some investigation. But buy the video first so you can be at
least somewhat sure you are investigating the same phenomenon.
cindi
Ocean of Nuance
http://www.ultimatedressage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=113184&highlight=endospink
cindi
wrote:
> "He pinches their Vagal nerve until they pass out." --lstevenson
>
Keep researching, you're getting close. He doesn't pinch anything,
and they don't pass out - have you watched the videos?
cindi
Ocean of Nuance
How do you know that answer is wrong?
sharon
cindi
wrote:
> How do you know that answer is wrong?
>
> sharon
Well, I've seen him do it to a bunch of horses and they are not
passing out, not using any definition of passing out that I would be
familiar with, which would involve a loss of consciousness. I have
also done it myself if you saw the video of me. Rain was positively
not passed out. I would go so far as to say they are calming down.
As for "pinching the vagus nerve", he does not pinch anything using
the definition of pinch that I am familiar with, which would be to
grab something between two or more fingers and press on it. I did not
actively pinch anything. I am not going to comment further on that.
You need to watch some of his videos otherwise you are just trying to
argue from a position of ignorance.
cindi
Francis Burton
I'd be interested to hear the explanation too.
Does Endo's "name" have any connection with endorphins? I suspect
that may have been how he thought it worked, initially anyway.
If you could get a horse to flop down on the ground by applying
a nose-twitch in a particular (possibly proprietary) way, would
that be fun? If you could get it to pee by pressing it just behind
the ears, would that be fun? It would impress your friends, at
least until they all learned how to do it too. It could also be
useful in certain situations. Yes, physiological reflexes can be
fun and useful! I'm not sure if this one is especially fun for
the horse though. There seems to be quite a bit of resistance
to going down in the videos I have seen. Why is that? Maybe horses
have an instinctual distrust of being forced into such a position
of helplessness. If they really enjoyed it, wouldn't they flop
down as soon as they felt the handler applying the TAP, after the
first time?
And how is it useful in training? Total submission (or learned
helplessness), Rarey-style?
Francis
Ocean of Nuance
I've seen the videos.
I've read other posts by lstevenson. She seems to know what the heck
she's talking about when it comes to horses.
I'll take her opinion if you don't mind.
sharon
Ocean of Nuance
As a training technique, it requires the horse be an autodidact,
learning the training magically as they go down. :)
sharon
cindi
> Does Endo's "name" have any connection with endorphins? I suspect
> that may have been how he thought it worked, initially anyway.
That's what I thought too, but they guess not, now. There is no pain
so there shouldn't be a pain-induced endorphin release, but maybe they
get released by some other mechanism - like restraint, in a prey
animal. I'm speculating; this is not what he says the vets say.
> If you could get a horse to flop down on the ground by applying
> a nose-twitch in a particular (possibly proprietary) way, would
> that be fun?
Yes.
> you could get it to pee by pressing it just behind
> the ears, would that be fun?
Yes, because it's better than standing around for hours after the sale
or show, waiting for the horse to pee for the drug test. Also
sometimes you need to do a urine test and that would be an easy way to
get it. :-)
> It would impress your friends, at
> least until they all learned how to do it too.
I'm impressed even after doing it myself - more so, actually, since he
makes it look so easy.
> It could also be
> useful in certain situations. Yes, physiological reflexes can be
> fun and useful! I'm not sure if this one is especially fun for
> the horse though.
I don't see much harmful in it. If you watch his vids, several of his
horses are not having fun doing anything with humans nearby, so of
course this won't look "fun" either.
> There seems to be quite a bit of resistance
> to going down in the videos I have seen. Why is that? Maybe horses
> have an instinctual distrust of being forced into such a position
> of helplessness.
Absolutely. No prey animal wants to lay down! The idea is once they
are down, they see we are not going to kill them, and they develop
trust and submission.
> If they really enjoyed it, wouldn't they flop
> down as soon as they felt the handler applying the TAP, after the
> first time?
I guess he gets some to that point, but I'm not sure he does it
repeatedly in very many cases. I do know trick trainers and the NH
crowd get their horses to do it on command. They enjoy it about as
much as they enjoy anything else we ask them to do that isn't simply
standing around eating.
> And how is it useful in training? Total submission (or learned
> helplessness), Rarey-style?
There is learned helplessness going on insofar as there is learned
helplessness going on in ANY horse training. Here's the Wiki
definition:
"Learned helplessness is a psychological condition in which a human
being or an animal has learned to believe that it is helpless in a
particular situation. It has come to believe that it has no control
over its situation and that whatever it does is futile. As a result,
the human being or the animal will stay passive in the face of an
unpleasant, harmful or damaging situation, even when it does actually
have the power to change its circumstances."
Horses can feel that way about anything we do to them - hobbling,
tying, trailer loading, obstacle training, under saddle training. In
fact they SHOULD come to feel that way, that they may as well comply.
They certainly have it within their power to change their
circumstances, but they don't, most of the time and if properly
trained. Some people, myself included, would want this passivity to
be not to such a degree that Black Beauty takes the people in the
carriage over the washed out bridge anyway, but in general most horse
folks do not want their horses questioning their every command. We
certainly don't want them struggling when tied, hobbled, trailering or
any other "unpleasant" situation, and we do need to doctor them
sometimes for their own welfare.
If you mean do the horses wind up being "depressed" like the human
theory goes, from finding themselves in a constant state of not being
able to change miserable circumstances, then no, that doesn't happen.
It's not like they are forced to lay down 24/7. It's just one of many
things that they learn to accept.
Like everything else we can do with horses, the point is to teach the
horse that we can control their movements and their position, and that
we will not betray their trust by abusing them once they've given in
to us. Just like hobbling, saddling, tying, trimming feet, lots of
things...
If you watch his videos you will certainly not see any horses with
"broken spirits". Miss Rain is her same happy self. Have you seen
Tommy Turvey? He's a trick rider with a big routine in which his
horse lays on it's back and he crawls around thru its hind legs and
over its belly. You can bet that horse looked like any other horse
when first learning to lay down - he would have had some resistance
and he didn't want to do it right off the bat. Of course they don't.
They don't want to be ridden right off the bat, they don't want to
stand tied right off the bat, etc etc etc, they don't want to give to
pressure right off the bat.
Do I think it's necessary? Maybe for those in the position of Endo
with his time constraints. It is obviously not necessary in the true
sense of the word, since people do train horses well without ever
laying them down in any fashion. It's just another tool that somebody
might need sometime or want sometime. :-)
Endospink is going to a colt starting challenge in June in the US
where everybody else will be doing the standard clinician colt
starting stuff... My guess is he'll TAP his horse, get him up, half
TAP him and mount up. I'm curious to see how his horse is doing at the
end of the challenge compared to the others.
cindi
cindi
wrote:
> I've seen the videos.
>
> I've read other posts by lstevenson. She seems to know what the heck
> she's talking about when it comes to horses.
>
> I'll take her opinion if you don't mind.
You are free to take anybody's opinions you wish but you can't deny
that there is no pinching and there is no passing out unless you are
being deliberately dense. :-) Post the link to one of his videos in
which you think he's pinching something or in which you think the
horse is passing out.
cindi
Eileen Morgan
> "Learned helplessness is a psychological condition in which a human
> being or an animal has learned to believe that it is helpless in a
> particular situation. It has come to believe that it has no control
> over its situation and that whatever it does is futile. As a result,
> the human being or the animal will stay passive in the face of an
> unpleasant, harmful or damaging situation, even when it does actually
> have the power to change its circumstances."
>Like everything else we can do with horses, the point is to teach the
> horse that we can control their movements and their position, and that
> we will not betray their trust by abusing them once they've given in
> to us. Just like hobbling, saddling, tying, trimming feet, lots of
> things...
>
> If you watch his videos you will certainly not see any horses with
> "broken spirits". Miss Rain is her same happy self.
This is very interesting in the context of an article I read this
morning (much of which I agree with) about eventing, and how the changes
in the dressage and stadium requirements are part of the problem with
the XC accidents.
And if that is too long for your browser, go to this page and click on
the link to the Jimmy Wofford article:
http://useventing.com/blog/?p=214
Here is an excerpt which seems pertinent to two threads:
"Take collection, for example. Collection occupies a very specialized
part of the dressage world. When a horse enters into collection he
begins to surrender his body to his rider, and he begins to surrender
his initiative as well. Two of my Olympic coaches, Jack LeGoff and Joe
Lynch, told me not to go too deeply into collection because it would
make the horse reliant on me.
Jack used to tell the story of winning the French Eventing Championships
on a mare who showed real promise. Jack was stationed with the Cadre
Noir at the time, so the following winter it was easy for him to delve
deeper into dressage, and he succeeded. "After that," Jack said, "she
was never the same." Meaning that the mare had begun to wait to be told
what to do across country. This excellent horseman immediately sensed
what had happened and thereafter warned his riders against too much
collection."
And:
"My conclusion is that we are asking our horses to surrender more and
more initiative in their dressage, and to wait more and more in their
approach to the show jumping fences. In addition, about 50 percent of
the fences on a modern cross-country course will be some form of narrow,
angle, corner, or accuracy question--what some observers have referred
to as 'show jumping at speed.'"
And finally, part of the conclusion of solutions:
"This last part might be a little bit my fault, and I apologize. Due to
the recent increased importance of dressage and show jumping to the
competitive outcome, I have stopped telling people to find a horse with
the "look of eagles." Horses who are successful in competition these
days are extraordinary movers and powerful, careful show jumpers. But
finding one who combines all this with the look of eagles is nearly
impossible. Thus when we compromise, we must compromise on the horse's
movement, not on his agility. I now recognize that more than ever these
are the qualities we need, qualities of the horse's spirit. Certainly we
need great movers and powerful jumpers, but above all we need a partner,
not a slave. We need horses who are supremely courageous, fiercely
independent and phenomenally agile."
It is a long article, five pages with a modest column on each page. This
is a TINY amount of excerpting for commenting purposes. I think it
addresses a lot of the issues in eventing very, very well.
Eileen Morgan
The Mare's Nest
http://www.themaresnest.com
cindi
> Certainly we
> need great movers and powerful jumpers, but above all we need a partner,
> not a slave. We need horses who are supremely courageous, fiercely
> independent and phenomenally agile."
While the notion of partnership with our horses sounds great, and
while it certainly may be true that a good dressage horse becomes too
much of a slave to its rider to be a safe cross country horse, we
ultimately need to have, what, 90% authority over our horses, for
safety and effectiveness? Slightly more? I mean, a cross country
horse might need to be very smart about how to use his body to clear a
jump and get around a course, and it might be important for him to be
able to make those little decisions on the fly without just waiting
for his rider to control every nuance of what he's doing, but the
rider is still on the horse's back, in control of his general
direction and general speed (the horse isn't allowed to run for home,
for instance), and in reality controlling a big big big majority of
what the horse is doing. Some horses will jump something in their
pastures for fun, but you don't see them loading themselves up and
heading down to the event and jumping a course, begging their rider to
come along... ;-)
I find the "fiercely independent" phrase a bit romantic. A truly
"fiercely independent" horse is not even going to be broke to ride,
much less exert himself in a prescribed manner carrying a rider over
several jumps...
If it is true that advanced collection work makes the cross country
phase for an eventing horse more dangerous, then I hope they take out
some of the collection work in the tests. If somebody wants to
specialize in collection work then they can stick to dressage... I'm
all for making it safer, and that would certainly be very interesting
if it's true.
cindi
Eileen Morgan
> On May 15, 4:02 pm, Eileen Morgan <eg...@ptd.net> wrote:
>> Certainly we
>> need great movers and powerful jumpers, but above all we need a partner,
>> not a slave. We need horses who are supremely courageous, fiercely
>> independent and phenomenally agile."
>
> While the notion of partnership with our horses sounds great, and
> while it certainly may be true that a good dressage horse becomes too
> much of a slave to its rider to be a safe cross country horse, we
> ultimately need to have, what, 90% authority over our horses, for
> safety and effectiveness? Slightly more? I mean, a cross country
> horse might need to be very smart about how to use his body to clear a
> jump and get around a course, and it might be important for him to be
> able to make those little decisions on the fly without just waiting
> for his rider to control every nuance of what he's doing, but the
> rider is still on the horse's back, in control of his general
> direction and general speed (the horse isn't allowed to run for home,
> for instance), and in reality controlling a big big big majority of
> what the horse is doing.
Of course you are in basic control of the horse--if you read the whole
article it puts this in context of an extended discussion--but I
personally have run into trouble with hunter horses and even some ex
jumpers who were never really safe on XC because they would put
themselves at risk following a rider mistake command. My girls blow me
off when I screw up. I suspect a field hunter would ignore rider error
to save its butt as well. My understanding is that Lucinda Green does a
lot of work with 'you select the pace and direction, and it is entirely
the horse's job to do what it needs to do in order to get where you are
telling it to go.' This is something you lose in the technical
submission required for the modern jumpers and certainly the initiative
in dressage horses.
>Some horses will jump something in their
> pastures for fun, but you don't see them loading themselves up and
> heading down to the event and jumping a course, begging their rider to
> come along... ;-)
Of course not. BUT I've done XC with horses who don't want to be out
there, and it is NOT FUN and NOT SAFE. Horses have aptitudes for various
disciplines (that's what selective breeding is all about) and if you've
ever taken a square peg out onto a round hole of cross country, you'll
know just what I mean about needing that correct spirit to do the XC.
> I find the "fiercely independent" phrase a bit romantic. A truly
> "fiercely independent" horse is not even going to be broke to ride,
> much less exert himself in a prescribed manner carrying a rider over
> several jumps...
You should watch some upper level eventers sometime . . . on a continuum
of horse personalities, they would be exactly as described. He's not
comparing them to an African Elephant of Mongolian Wild Horse . . . he's
talking in the context of competitive upper level prospects.
cindi
> Of course you are in basic control of the horse--if you read the whole
> article it puts this in context of an extended discussion--but I
> personally have run into trouble with hunter horses and even some ex
> jumpers who were never really safe on XC because they would put
> themselves at risk following a rider mistake command. My girls blow me
> off when I screw up. I suspect a field hunter would ignore rider error
> to save its butt as well.
Yes, self preseveration is important!
> My understanding is that Lucinda Green does a
> lot of work with 'you select the pace and direction, and it is entirely
> the horse's job to do what it needs to do in order to get where you are
> telling it to go.' This is something you lose in the technical
> submission required for the modern jumpers and certainly the initiative
> in dressage horses.
Very interesting. I have always thought of jumping as you say it's
described by Lucinda Green... I've never counted strides or tried to
decide where to take off or anything. Of course nobody here is
jumping over 2 feet! Well, 2'6" I think has been our max. The horses
don't need any help and if they screw up a few times while figuring it
out, nobody suffers too much.
The dressage and initiative thing is very interesting. It's a bit
like cutting and reining... Some of the good reiners won't take their
reiners to work cattle even for fun because they don't want the horse
turning to an outward stimulus for input on the decisions about how he
should be moving. They want the horse to be in the frame of mind all
that time that direction comes from the rider exclusively, down to the
most minute detail. I've always thought that was just a cop out -
I've always thought horses can descriminate between "this is where I
obey my rider totally" and "this is where I get to have some input" or
at least "this is where things other than my rider dictate what I'll
be doing." BUT the difference is, if a reining horse screws up
working a cow, nobody dies. It's different when there are big jumps
involved! And high speed.
> Of course not. BUT I've done XC with horses who don't want to be out
> there, and it is NOT FUN and NOT SAFE. Horses have aptitudes for various
> disciplines (that's what selective breeding is all about) and if you've
> ever taken a square peg out onto a round hole of cross country, you'll
> know just what I mean about needing that correct spirit to do the XC.
Oh, yes, I agree.
> You should watch some upper level eventers sometime . . .
I've seen upper level eventing - I have a hard time calling those
horses fiercely independent... I guess at most they are cooperative,
to my way of thinking... You tell me what to do and I'll try to not
get us killed doing it kind of a thing. I dunno, it's all semantics I
guess. I understand the point, that a horse who's *too* micromanaged
is not as likely to suddenly disobey or even just fill in and do what
needs to be done. Makes sense to me even if it wouldn't call it
fiercely independent. :-)
> on a continuum
> of horse personalities, they would be exactly as described. He's not
> comparing them to an African Elephant of Mongolian Wild Horse . . . he's
> talking in the context of competitive upper level prospects.
LOL. Well that's a good point - and I haven't read the article. The
comment just struck me as so Black Beauty-ish...
By the way, nice story about your long long long bareback ride!
Ouch! :-)
cindi
Eileen Morgan
> By the way, nice story about your long long long bareback ride!
> Ouch! :-)
Ahhh, it was fine. I forgot just how wetr and sweaty your pants get on a
hot spring ride. Not to mention the shedding hairs!!!
Nancy...@gmail.com
> My understanding is that Lucinda Green does a
> lot of work with 'you select the pace and direction, and it is entirely
> the horse's job to do what it needs to do in order to get where you are
> telling it to go.'
I haven't read this thread, and I'm running out the door, so I've
probably missed the point. :)
But we used to do a lot of this. My old coach had us ride like "Jimmy
the Dunce," doing nothing to help, but staying the hell out of the
horse's way, when schooling over fences. He had us ride entire XC
courses on the buckle, giving minimal input with remaining aids - just
enough to present the horse to the fence and nothing more.
He also had us, regularly, walk over 3' X 3' oxers. He felt *we*
needed to know that our horses could easily pop such things from a
standstill, and get us out of trouble when we screwed up. Even the
least talented of our lesson horses could do it, without undue effort.
When I came back to riding after an 8-year hiatus, I was like a fish
out of water. Everyone wanted maximum control at all times, everyone
wanted horses to add rather than seeking boldness. Yuck.
That's not to say that we never schooled such things - riding a line
in varying numbers of strides, compressing and lengthening, tightening
our turns to where they were nearly rollbacks, etc. But it was a part
of our program. Today it seems it's the whole program. The part
where the horse takes care of himself is gone.
Nancy DeMarco (still waiting on Jinks' Lyme titre - he looks like
hell)
Mason, NH
Eileen Morgan
> He also had us, regularly, walk over 3' X 3' oxers. He felt *we*
> needed to know that our horses could easily pop such things from a
> standstill, and get us out of trouble when we screwed up. Even the
> least talented of our lesson horses could do it, without undue effort.
I did that with Moonlight in a clinic with Dorthy Crowell. Big fun!
> When I came back to riding after an 8-year hiatus, I was like a fish
> out of water. Everyone wanted maximum control at all times, everyone
> wanted horses to add rather than seeking boldness. Yuck.
Indeed.
> That's not to say that we never schooled such things - riding a line
> in varying numbers of strides, compressing and lengthening, tightening
> our turns to where they were nearly rollbacks, etc. But it was a part
> of our program. Today it seems it's the whole program. The part
> where the horse takes care of himself is gone.
Exactly! My coach has us get out of the way, let the horse figure it out.
AND we practice more involved things, too.
(still waiting on Jinks' Lyme titre - he looks like hell)
Give him a scritch from Auntie Eileen, please!
Eileen Morgan
The Mare's Nest (PA)
http://www.themaresnest.com
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
<alliso...@yahoo.com> wrote:
snip
>The dressage and initiative thing is very interesting. It's a bit
>like cutting and reining... Some of the good reiners won't take their
>reiners to work cattle even for fun because they don't want the horse
>turning to an outward stimulus for input on the decisions about how he
>should be moving. They want the horse to be in the frame of mind all
>that time that direction comes from the rider exclusively, down to the
>most minute detail. I've always thought that was just a cop out -
>I've always thought horses can descriminate between "this is where I
>obey my rider totally" and "this is where I get to have some input" or
>at least "this is where things other than my rider dictate what I'll
>be doing." BUT the difference is, if a reining horse screws up
>working a cow, nobody dies. It's different when there are big jumps
>involved! And high speed.
Um...no. The mind of a good reining-bred horse with cowhorse breeding
(Miss Mocha, for example) will default toward independent thought.
Some of our biggest battles come from when she starts channeling her
cutter breeding instead of her reiner breeding (great-grandma many
times over Poco Lena comes to the front) and she wants to do her own
thing, or what SHE thinks we should do. There's also that
strong-minded edge that comes from being a horse with the potential to
perform.
Many people don't want to engage in those battles with a strong-minded
horse, especially one with the strength and mind of a good cowhorse or
reiner. If I had the access to cows, I'd give it a try, at least for
penning. I actually think she'd be a better reined cowhorse than
reiner, given her temperment. But I don't have the time and $$$ to do
that.
(Go read Mugwump Chronicles on the web for a nice discussion about the
differences between reiners, cutters, and reined cowhorses, as well as
training pressures.
http://mugwumpchronicles.blogspot.com/
and look at the May 15th entry)
jrw
svle...@earthlink.net
> On May 15, 4:41 pm, Eileen Morgan <eg...@ptd.net> wrote:
>
> > Of course you are in basic control of the horse--if you read the whole
> > article it puts this in context of an extended discussion--but I
> > personally have run into trouble with hunter horses and even some ex
> > jumpers who were never really safe on XC because they would put
> > themselves at risk following a rider mistake command. My girls blow me
> > off when I screw up. I suspect a field hunter would ignore rider error
> > to save its butt as well.
>
> Yes, self preseveration is important!
Higher level show jumpers are ridden with a LOT of control. Their
riders
can and do regulate their stride within inches to a fence. I think it
is
a mistake to introduce that level of control into eventing. Of course,
now
they are doing it on cross-country as well as in stadium jumping.
Ditto for asking for more and more collection.
>
> > My understanding is that Lucinda Green does a
> > lot of work with 'you select the pace and direction, and it is entirely
> > the horse's job to do what it needs to do in order to get where you are
> > telling it to go.' This is something you lose in the technical
> > submission required for the modern jumpers and certainly the initiative
> > in dressage horses.
>
> Very interesting. I have always thought of jumping as you say it's
> described by Lucinda Green... I've never counted strides or tried to
> decide where to take off or anything. Of course nobody here is
> jumping over 2 feet! Well, 2'6" I think has been our max. The horses
> don't need any help and if they screw up a few times while figuring it
> out, nobody suffers too much.
If you read the entire article, Wofford writes that under the current
format and design, event horses are reaching the limits of their
ability
to handle the stadium jumps. A four foot high, five foot wide oxer is
a
big jump and eventers are not show jumping specialists by nature or
nurture. So the riders have to ride them more "technically", that is
with
step by step control of the horse.
Moreover, cross-country is directly opposite the extremely careful
horse.
An overjumper who is allergic to wood would never make the time and
would
likely blow his or her self out in terms of getting tired well before
the
end of the cross-country course.
What I find most alarming is the speeds that horses are attaining on
course
when not dealing with a complicated technical question. They are, IMO,
taking chances to make up time lost when they have to jump cross-
country
as if they were on a show jumping course. The speeds, according the
article,
exceed the speeds at which the steeplechase phase, with its forgiving
brush jumps, were conducted. Wow.
>
> The dressage and initiative thing is very interesting. It's a bit
> like cutting and reining... Some of the good reiners won't take their
> reiners to work cattle even for fun because they don't want the horse
> turning to an outward stimulus for input on the decisions about how he
> should be moving. They want the horse to be in the frame of mind all
> that time that direction comes from the rider exclusively, down to the
> most minute detail. I've always thought that was just a cop out -
> I've always thought horses can descriminate between "this is where I
> obey my rider totally" and "this is where I get to have some input" or
> at least "this is where things other than my rider dictate what I'll
> be doing." BUT the difference is, if a reining horse screws up
> working a cow, nobody dies. It's different when there are big jumps
> involved! And high speed.
I think this is a good analogy.
> > You should watch some upper level eventers sometime . . .
>
> I've seen upper level eventing - I have a hard time calling those
> horses fiercely independent... I guess at most they are cooperative,
> to my way of thinking... You tell me what to do and I'll try to not
> get us killed doing it kind of a thing. I dunno, it's all semantics I
> guess. I understand the point, that a horse who's *too* micromanaged
> is not as likely to suddenly disobey or even just fill in and do what
> needs to be done. Makes sense to me even if it wouldn't call it
> fiercely independent. :-)
I tend on your side of the fence with the cooperative.
> > on a continuum
> > of horse personalities, they would be exactly as described. He's not
> > comparing them to an African Elephant of Mongolian Wild Horse . . . he's
> > talking in the context of competitive upper level prospects.
>
> LOL. Well that's a good point - and I haven't read the article. The
> comment just struck me as so Black Beauty-ish...
Jim Wofford is an older man and his use of the language may be
different
than we would opt for. He is also one of the most classical and superb
event riders this country has ever produced; how he can jump cross-
country
at speed with his position is amazing; you never see him in photos
looking
anything less than almost perfect. He knows a lot; I'll forgive him a
bit
of purple prose to read his opinions.
It's folks like Jim Wofford and Denny Emerson - the old-timers - who
can
save the sport. We all need to listen to them.