Barefoot Horses
deadra
better barefoot than with shoes. How true does this ring? Does it
depend on breed or genetics or past care? I know a couple Arabians
that do well locally like that but is this common? Just a thought.
Deadra
Omicron Delta Pineapple
If a horse is not going on pavement then it is going to do better
barefoot than with shoes. Hooves evolved long before people saw horses
as anything but dinner.
Mine are never shod at home. The only one I ever shoe is my Shire mare,
because you have to shoe if you show (which I think is absurd, but
that's the way the game is played). Even then, I don't shoe with
scotchbottoms and I don't let her foot get grown out to an unnatural
size. She goes in the showring in scotched (beveled) plates that are
made to fit her foot, not the other way around.
If a horse requires shoes at pasture just to stay sound, then that horse
has a built in unsoundness and it is the fault of wrong-headed breeding,
i.e. selecting for the wrong thing and ignoring a flaw.
Lorri
John Hasler
> I just discovered a group of horsepeople that claim their horses do
> better barefoot than with shoes. How true does this ring?
Horses do better barefoot unless they need shoes, in which case they do
better with shoes.
> I know a couple Arabians that do well locally like that but is this
> common?
Two of the 37 horses here wear front shoes for therapeutic reasons. A few
more might get shod this summer if their work warrants it.
--
John Hasler
jo...@dhh.gt.org (John Hasler)
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, WI
Nancy DeMarco
>If a horse is not going on pavement then it is going to do better
>barefoot than with shoes.
Spoken by a woman who does not live in New England. :)
Nancy DeMarco (Pavement is *soft* compared to what Mom Nature often
throws at us.)
Bill Kambic
Horses should be barefoot unless they need shoes. If they need shoes and
the human fails to provide then the human is guilty of neglect at best,
abuse at worst.
One size does not fit all, but one size will always fit some. Keep this
principle in mind whenever someone tries to sell you The One True Way.
Bill Kambic, Haras Lucero, Kingston, TN
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/1816
Mangalarga Marchador: Style, Stamina, Symmetry, & Smoothness
P.S. I have four horses, split 50-50.
Una
>>If a horse is not going on pavement then it is going to do better
>>barefoot than with shoes.
Nancy DeMarco <nancyd...@attbi.com> wrote:
>Spoken by a woman who does not live in New England. :)
Hi Granite State lady. Ms. Pineapple also doesn't live in
Volcano State (Hawaii or New Mexico). Granite crushed rock
and tuff are both extremely abrasive.
Mine grows beautiful hooves but given where and how much I
ride her I think she needs shoes year round.
Una
Joe
"Omicron Delta Pineapple" <schizy...@rubyridge.com> wrote in message
news:3E77C2EB...@rubyridge.com...
deadra wrote:
If a horse requires shoes at pasture just to stay sound, then that horse
has a built in unsoundness and it is the fault of wrong-headed breeding,
i.e. selecting for the wrong thing and ignoring a flaw.
Lorri
Not necessarily. The ground in my pature is the worst I've ever seen for
eating feet. it's like walking on sandpaper. I moved into it in the winter,
right after pulling shoes, and was shocked some time later to see how much
they were losing. I have really hard footed horses, and they should do well
barefoot most of the time, but they have to have protection here. What
actually happens with your horse is more important than any "philosophy."
Kris Anderson
> Omicron Delta Pineapple <schizy...@rubyridge.com> wrote:
>
> >If a horse is not going on pavement then it is going to do better
> >barefoot than with shoes.
If I spent a lot of time riding on pavement all my horses would be
barefooted. Pavement does a great job of wearing the hoof, and as
long as the horses aren't trying to pull a load, or do fast work,
barefooted is ideal. Shoes are very slippery on pavement and borium
is very grabby. EZBoots, and I would imagine any of the other poly
boots, work well on pavement when the hooves start getting too short.
>
> Spoken by a woman who does not live in New England. :)
I think the gravel roads are the worst, although some of the trails
are nothing but shale and rocks.
>
> Nancy DeMarco (Pavement is *soft* compared to what Mom Nature often
> throws at us.)
Pavement is smooth, so unless there are stones on it even thin-soled
horses can go a long way barefooted on pavement.
Kris
--
Kris Anderson
Williamstown, MA
sally j
Many years ago when I first took my little barefoot Arab on a pleasure
drive, where most of the other people were oldtime drivers, you would
have thought I was the one that was naked from the comments I got. The
horse was happy, the farrier was happy, but the peer pressure to
change was something else.
I used to shoe him in front for the winter when conditions got icy,
with the studs on the shoes to improve traction. Come spring off came
the shoes. I have always trusted my farrier explicitly re advice to
shoe or not. As he said, the hooves are healthy so it is a question
if they wear down faster than they grow, you need shoes.
When I got the Canadiens, I used the same system with one. The
second, however, was very "ouchy" on the pavement and gravel roads, so
we put shoes on all 4 for the summer, and just front 2 for the winter.
Will try barefoot for a while in the spring and see if I need to go
back to shoes or not.
While going barefoot seems to be more "socially acceptable" now than
before, I would say around here more people shoe than don't, and I
can't say if it is because more horses need to be shod than don't.
Sally J and her Canadiens.
Eileen Morgan
"deadra" <dead...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:e9db380.03031...@posting.google.com...
At home, I have a barefoot retiree, a shod all the way around eventer, and a
barefoot green bean who does light flatwork and trails. My leased out boys
both go sore quickly without shoes all around, and Bard breaks up his feet,
too. Bard is ok barefoot when not working or working very lightly in good
footing only. Moonlight could no doubt go fine barefoot if she was in
moderate work, but I need traction and I need to protect her feet as she
gallops hard and jumps on less than perfect footing XC and stadium. Belles,
the green bean, will stay barefoot as long as she seems comfortable moving
out big without shoes. She has been under saddle for about 10 months of
light work; this year we will be stepping things up a little, so we'll see
how it goes. I do know of an eventer who does advanced levels barefoot, so a
very few toughies can do it.
--
Eileen Morgan
March 30th Clinic Information: http://www.enter.net/~edlehman/USEAAR2.html
The Mare's Nest
http://www.enter.net/~edlehman
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.461 / Virus Database: 260 - Release Date: 3/10/2003
Claudia Wheatley
> news:e9db380.03031...@posting.google.com...
> > I just discovered a group of horsepeople that claim their horses do
> > better barefoot than with shoes. How true does this ring? Does it
> > depend on breed or genetics or past care? I know a couple Arabians
> > that do well locally like that but is this common? Just a thought.
Just for grins, I asked the new farrier at the barn what he thought
about the barefoot movement. He went into a rant about the
one-size-fits-all mentality that could have been taken straight from
this newsgroup. He said my two Arabs are a case in point: the older one
could probably go barefoot year-round with no ill effects (his feet are
like iron to begin with, and he is mostly ridden in the ring or on the
trail, two or three times a week), but the younger one's feet would
crumble like peatmoss (his feet are lousy and he gets a lot more use).
He didn't think much of innovations like the Cytek method either; says
he's seen state-of-the-art shoes come and go and knows where there are
warehouses full of fancy examples that were once touted as the greatest
advance in equine footwear since the hoof and are now basically scrap
iron.
Plus he did a real nice job on both my boys, for a very reasonable fee.
I think I'll keep him.
C
Claudia Wheatley, Ithaca, NY
"Government is the entertainment division of the
military industrial complex." --Frank Zappa
Copper
<ca...@cornell.edu> wrote:
>> "deadra" <dead...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:e9db380.03031...@posting.google.com...
>> > I just discovered a group of horsepeople that claim their horses do
>> > better barefoot than with shoes. How true does this ring? Does it
>> > depend on breed or genetics or past care? I know a couple Arabians
>> > that do well locally like that but is this common? Just a thought.
>
>Just for grins, I asked the new farrier at the barn what he thought
>about the barefoot movement. He went into a rant about the
>one-size-fits-all mentality that could have been taken straight from
>this newsgroup. He said my two Arabs are a case in point: the older one
>could probably go barefoot year-round with no ill effects (his feet are
>like iron to begin with, and he is mostly ridden in the ring or on the
>trail, two or three times a week), but the younger one's feet would
>crumble like peatmoss (his feet are lousy and he gets a lot more use).
>Claudia Wheatley, Ithaca, NY
Hi, I just had to jump in since I am a dedicated member of the
barefoot movement. I don't see the movement as being
one-size-fits-all. It takes a hell of a lot of work to keep many
horses barefoot as all horse feet are not alike, and some horses may
not be able to do it.
As in your case Claudia, we have some horses with great feet and some
with crummy feet. It's easy with the horse with good feet. With the
horse with crummy feet, you can't just have a farrier arrive every 4
wks. and trim and expect to have a sound horse.
You have to address the footing that the horse lives on i.e. firmer
footing toughens up the feet (but too harsh footing breaks the feet
down), you have to touch up the feet with a knife and a rasp every few
days, you have to give them lots of exercise on appropriate footing,
you have to religiously put on boots like Old Macs while riding on
harsher footing, you have to look at diet, etc.
Having said that, it is worth it as our horses appear happier and
healthier since being barefoot. But it was much easier before we went
barefoot i.e. just have the farrier come and put shoes on every four
weeks. Having barefoot horses takes personal dedication to take care
of your horses feet yourself with the assistance of a professional.
This is a group of knowledgeable people dedicated to barefoot horses
barefoot...@yahoogroups.com
Loise
"Copper" <Cop...@nothere.invalid> wrote in message
news:e00k7v8idh6iepct2...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 20 Mar 2003 12:00:35 -0500, Claudia Wheatley
> horse with crummy feet, you can't just have a farrier arrive every 4
> wks. and trim and expect to have a sound horse.
> You have to address the footing that the horse lives on i.e. firmer
> footing toughens up the feet (but too harsh footing breaks the feet
> down), you have to touch up the feet with a knife and a rasp every few
> days,
My young mare has feet like iron, the only thing you ever have to do to her
is make sure her toes stay trimmed. My old girl gets stoved up and gimpy,
all the way around, if she doesn't have her shoes on. The gelding had
advanced white line disease when we got him, so he didn't have any feet to
attach a shoe to, and has spent the last two years barefoot. Now that we've
gotten his feet back into shape he doesn't seem to need shoes unless we're
hacking around on pavement or rocky ground. Then we see a lot of flaking on
his hooves. So I would agree.....the one-size-fits-all, approach doesn't
seem to work.
Lois E
Tom Stovall
>Hi, I just had to jump in since I am a dedicated member of the
>barefoot movement...
Honest confession is good for the soul. Go in peace and sin no more.
>I don't see the movement as being one-size-fits-all...
Perhaps you should examine the "movement" from a more technical
standpoint. A magnum sized grain of salt will help when reading some of
the nonsense promulgated by the doofi infesting the "movement." Members
of the "movement" advocate such idiocy as 30º hairlines on every horse,
whacking off the heels without regard to phalangeal alignment, and -
incomprehensibly - the notion that a horse's being barefooted and in
pain is somehow superior to that horse's being shod and pain free.
>It takes a hell of a lot of work to keep many horses barefoot as all
>horse feet are not alike, and some horses may not be able to do it...
As you learned in a previous lesson, some horses need shoeing; some
don't. The horse, not the owner, determines the need for shoeing.
[...]
>This is a group of knowledgeable people dedicated to barefoot horses
>barefoot...@yahoogroups.com...
Anyone dedicated to the proposition that all horses should be barefooted
is just as knowledgeable about equids as those fools who worship at the
alter of the great god, Natural. I once wrote that their collective
knowledge of things horsy, if stuffed up a gnat's arse, would rattle
around like a BB in a boxcar. I'm now of the opinion that my assessment
of their intellect was much too charitable.
--
Tom Stovall, CJF
Farrier & Blacksmith
sto...@wt.net
http://www.katyforge.com
Copper
wrote:
>Anyone dedicated to the proposition that all horses should be barefooted
>is just as knowledgeable about equids as those fools who worship at the
>alter of the great god, Natural. I once wrote that their collective
>knowledge of things horsy, if stuffed up a gnat's arse, would rattle
>around like a BB in a boxcar. I'm now of the opinion that my assessment
>of their intellect was much too charitable.
Mr. Stovall, spoken like a true red neck. Thank you so much for your
"informed" input. I'm sure you have the experience and knowledge to
offer helpful comments, but you seem to focus on saying nasty
belittling things. I have the best interests of horses behind my
words so why try to demean me? What's the point? You're a mean
spirited old fart.
Scribbles
the repetitious Stovall. Assumptions are made by Stovall without the
hint of supporting evidence.
Hoofrx1
>From: Scribbles ret...@nonexist.invalid
>Date: 3/21/2003 12:14 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <38rm7vc36slq0vl75...@4ax.com>
Scribbles the anonymous , gets points for its new found ability to use words of
more than one syllable(devoid, repetitious) in an attempt to , it appears, both
impresss us with its new found linguistic ability, and its futile attempt to
insult or denigrate Mr. Stovall.
Perhaps a rabies test is inorder for it?
>Assumptions are made by Stovall without the
>hint of supporting evidence.
If Scribbles had the requisite cranial capacity to read for content, both in
and out of context, it(Scribbles) would know how ludicrous its statement is.
Tom has repeatedly provided cites for his statements but Scribbles has never
let facts get in its way.
>Here we go again. Another pointless rant, devoid of supporting facts ....
How aptly you describe your self, Scribbles. A job well done. We'll keep it
around for future reference.
Rick Burten, CJF, RMF
(Please note, Scribbles, that in an attempt at civility, I refrained from
calling you a brain-dead twit; fluff bunny; a carbuncle on the rump of equine
knowledge; idiotic; moronic; or any of the other applicable terminology with
which I regularly spice up my replies to your inane musings.)
Tom Stovall
>>Anyone dedicated to the proposition that all horses should be >>barefooted is just as knowledgeable about equids as those fools who
>>worship at the alter of the great god, Natural. I once wrote that
>>their collective knowledge of things horsy, if stuffed up a gnat's
>>arse, would rattle around like a BB in a boxcar. I'm now of the
>>opinion that my assessment of their intellect was much too charitable.
>Mr. Stovall, spoken like a true red neck. Thank you so much for your
>"informed" input. I'm sure you have the experience and knowledge to
>offer helpful comments, but you seem to focus on saying nasty
>belittling things...
Like many of the twits infesting this forum, you appear more concerned
with the wrapping of the package than the contents. If you don't like
my posts, don't read 'em.
>I have the best interests of horses behind my words so why try to
>demean me? What's the point?...
Because, you ignorant twit, nobody who has the best interests of horses
at heart ever advocated leaving all horses barefooted under all
circumstances and that's exactly what the idiotic "barefoot" movement
headed up by Strasser and her cult is all about. Read the goddam
literature, starting with Stashak and Rooney, then get back to me on the
barefoot business. Some horses need shoeing, some don't.
>You're a mean spirited old fart...
I like horses. Fools like yourself, who push an agenda that's
potentially harmful to horses, give me gas.
Sigen 3
[...]
>
>Scribbles the anonymous , gets points for its new found ability to use words
>of
>more than one syllable(devoid, repetitious) in an attempt to , it appears,
>both
>impresss us with its new found linguistic ability, and its futile attempt to
>insult or denigrate Mr. Stovall.
[...]
>How aptly you describe your self, Scribbles. A job well done. We'll keep it
>around for future reference.
>
>Rick Burten, CJF, RMF
>
>(Please note, Scribbles, that in an attempt at civility, I refrained from
>calling you a brain-dead twit; fluff bunny; a carbuncle on the rump of equine
>knowledge; idiotic; moronic; or any of the other applicable terminology with
>which I regularly spice up my replies to your inane musings.)
>
Mr. Burten,
Just out of curiosity, outside of your training as a farrier, what is your
education? None of my business really, but both you and Mr. Stovall crack me
up. I never cease to be amazed that some folks think you two are red-necks
(they use the term in a derogitory fashion). I have to believe that you are
either incredibly well read, or have a very expensive piece of parchment
hanging on one of your walls.
Keep up the good work <G>
CM
whose hubby is a well edjumacated red-neck
Tom Stovall
>Here we go again. Another pointless rant, devoid of supporting facts
>by the repetitious Stovall.
What part of my scathing condemnation of those blithering idiots who
claim that no horse needs shoeing under any circumstances was beyond
your ken?
>Assumptions are made by Stovall without the hint of supporting
>evidence...
Your inability to comprehend the obvious does not render it nonexistent.
As I recall, I cited Stashak's, "Adams, Lameness in Horses" and
Rooney's, "The Lame Horse", both of which contain literally hundreds of
annotations concerning shoes and shoeing methods, and told you they
could be found in any veterinary college library. With the typical
my-mind's-made-up-don't-me-with-facts attitude of a mindless,
card-carrying, strasserite, you responded with some ludicrous bullshit
about not having a library handy.
Keep posting, this forum can use the laughter.
CMNewell
wrote:
>Mr. Stovall, spoken like a true red neck. Thank you so much for your
>"informed" input. I'm sure you have the experience and knowledge to
>offer helpful comments, but you seem to focus on saying nasty
>belittling things. I have the best interests of horses behind my
>words so why try to demean me? What's the point? You're a mean
>spirited old fart.
I'll drink to that. Senor Tomas, name your posion.
CMNewell, DVM
The Chuck of Eq
self-proclaimed vet
Surgeon General of the Bogbash Party
"You can be perverse, a horse cannot." --TvG
Scribbles
Well Deadra, you got several pleasant answers from sane people who
thought a horse could do well barefoot unless there was some problem
with the hoof. Then the farriers Stovall and Burten rant and rave like
the lunatics they are.
I have several horses that do very well barefoot and know many other
owners whose horses are going well barefoot. I trim my own horses and
find it to be satisfying.
Bill Kambic
> On Fri, 21 Mar 2003 19:39:49 GMT, Copper <Cop...@nothere.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>
> >Mr. Stovall, spoken like a true red neck. Thank you so much for your
> >"informed" input. I'm sure you have the experience and knowledge to
> >offer helpful comments, but you seem to focus on saying nasty
> >belittling things. I have the best interests of horses behind my
> >words so why try to demean me? What's the point? You're a mean
> >spirited old fart.
>
> I'll drink to that. Senor Tomas, name your posion.
I was thinking of creating a new drink. A shot of Aalborg Gold Aqavit
washed down by a long draught of cold Dos XX Lager. We could call it the
Mean Spirited Old Fart.
Viva Tejas Al Sur!!!!!!!!!!!<g>
Copper
wrote:
>Because, you ignorant twit, nobody who has the best interests of horses
>at heart ever advocated leaving all horses barefooted under all
>circumstances and that's exactly what the idiotic "barefoot" movement
>headed up by Strasser and her cult is all about. Read the goddam
>literature, starting with Stashak and Rooney, then get back to me on the
>barefoot business. Some horses need shoeing, some don't.
>
>I like horses. Fools like yourself, who push an agenda that's
>potentially harmful to horses, give me gas.
You are locked into your fixed beliefs about what the barefoot
movement is all about, and you obviously have many misconceptions
about it. I would suggest that it is you who is pushing an agenda. I
have only said that it works for me and have never said that it would
work for all.
It is you who continually rants about barefoot people advocating
barefoot under any and all circumstances. I never have advocated that
at all. You must not read what people write. As soon as barefoot is
mentioned, you start yelling and cease listening.
Calling names seems to be the meat of all your arguments. You attempt
to distract with seemingly folksy rants, and name calling. You demand
that I read such and such a reference.
I read this group because I am interested in the experiences of others
with their horses. I do read almost continually about shod horses and
barefoot horses. After reading and discussing, I still choose to have
my horses barefoot.
No, I don't do it blindly. My horses are pleasure ridden Quarter
Horses who don't have excessive demands placed on them. However, I do
know top performance horses who are barefoot. These areas include
three day eventing, hunter jumper, and dressage. NEVER would I have
my horse barefoot if it was in pain.
I imagine that the name calling is your attempt to be the loveable
curmudgeon of the rec.equestrian ng. You wind up sounding like a man
locked in the past. i.e. My dad puts shoes on his horse, and I'll be
damned if I do it any different.
The barefoot movement has many many knowledgeable people involved.
Upon reading what you write and the style in which you write, I
wouldn't put one of my horses under your care. Heaven only knows how
you would treat a horse who doesn't do it your way.
You say you like horses. Someone with your anger obviously doesn't
even like himself and therefore it's doubtful if you could like one of
God's creatures.
Copper
wrote:
>"CMNewell" wrote in message
>> I'll drink to that. Senor Tomas, name your posion.
>I was thinking of creating a new drink. A shot of Aalborg Gold Aqavit
>washed down by a long draught of cold Dos XX Lager. We could call it the
>Mean Spirited Old Fart.
>
>Viva Tejas Al Sur!!!!!!!!!!!<g>
I'll drink to it as well. Here's to you, you old fart!! <g>
Bill Kambic
> No, I don't do it blindly. My horses are pleasure ridden Quarter
> Horses who don't have excessive demands placed on them. However, I do
> know top performance horses who are barefoot. These areas include
> three day eventing, hunter jumper, and dressage. NEVER would I have
> my horse barefoot if it was in pain.
This claim is made regularly and frequently among the barefoot devotees, but
is pretty much unverifiable. I lurk on them from time to time just to see
"what's up."
How about some names here?
I know of one lady, Darolyn Butler, who says she runs endurance horses
barefoot. She is out of the Houston area (Humble). She has a "track
record" but there is no evidence in the official record about what's on the
feet. She used to have a web site but it appears to be gone.
I've started you with one. Got any more?
> I imagine that the name calling is your attempt to be the loveable
> curmudgeon of the rec.equestrian ng. You wind up sounding like a man
> locked in the past. i.e. My dad puts shoes on his horse, and I'll be
> damned if I do it any different.
I'm giving you the chance to go beyond name calling by name posting. Up to
the challenge?
>
> The barefoot movement has many many knowledgeable people involved.
> Upon reading what you write and the style in which you write, I
> wouldn't put one of my horses under your care. Heaven only knows how
> you would treat a horse who doesn't do it your way.
>
> You say you like horses. Someone with your anger obviously doesn't
> even like himself and therefore it's doubtful if you could like one of
> God's creatures.
Enough of the dime store psychology.
The ball is in your court. Let's see what you do with it.
Copper
wrote:
>"Copper" wrote in message
>
>This claim is made regularly and frequently among the barefoot devotees, but
>is pretty much unverifiable. I lurk on them from time to time just to see
>"what's up."
>
>How about some names here?
>
>I know of one lady, Darolyn Butler, who says she runs endurance horses
>barefoot. She is out of the Houston area (Humble). She has a "track
>record" but there is no evidence in the official record about what's on the
>feet. She used to have a web site but it appears to be gone.
>
>I've started you with one. Got any more?
Do you mean you would like names of three day eventers, dressage
riders, hunter jumper riders, etc? Here's a three day eventer in
the States. Or would you like names of the barefoot horse experts?
www.naturalhorsetrim.com/Section_23.htm
>I'm giving you the chance to go beyond name calling by name posting. Up to
>the challenge?
I will ask permission of the barefoot performance people that I know
to use their names on the internet.
>Enough of the dime store psychology.
Psychiatry is my profession.
>
Ken Brown
> Psychiatry is my profession.
Then the term "anthropomorphism" ought to ring a bell.
So stop treating a horse less than a horse; and stop thinking you know what
a horse thinks or feels. You can, at best, merely surmise.
P.S. Not one.. no .. NOT A ONE .. of the performance people in my neck of
the woods has barefoot horses. Not one. They need the shoes for
protection on the fronts and to allow them to change their way of going on
the rear - to slide and not get injured.
-----------------------
"Put two hundred miles on
your horse, then come back
and see me."
- attributed to Buster Welch
Susan Ravan
horseman who does like horses, and I would rather have someone with his
knowledge care for my horse than someone from Fluffbunny U. Get it
through your head, Tom Stovall has stated numerous times SOME HORSES
NEED SHOES, SOME DON'T. Get a grip, you and Scribbles are twins. You
have been asked to provide names of all these barefoot performance
horses by Bill Kambic. All you have done is pout and call names. Tom
Stovall has a standing bet with Scribbles, who won't accept it because
he knows he would lose. The ball is in your court, sport.
And for the record, one of my horses is shod all the way around, one is
shod on the front and one is barefoot - it's what each individual horse,
not my ego, needs.
Susan Ravan
Susan Ravan
reiners, endurance horses, ect. Also, the location/name of the event.
Susan Ravan
RPM1
> P.S. Not one.. no .. NOT A ONE .. of the performance people in my neck of
> the woods has barefoot horses. Not one. They need the shoes for
> protection on the fronts and to allow them to change their way of going on
> the rear - to slide and not get injured.
i did know of one barrel racer with a little
appy that went bare behind. it's rare tho.
rcm
Hoofrx1
>From: Scribbles ret...@nonexist.invalid
>Message-id: <6aqn7v49n45rf45os...@4ax.com>
Scribbles the anonymous once again proving its morbid fascination with proving
its inability to read for content in context offers :
>Well Deadra, you got several pleasant answers from sane people who
>thought a horse could do well barefoot unless there was some problem
>with the hoof. Then the farriers Stovall and Burten rant and rave like
>the lunatics they are.
Even the most simple minded among us(with, it appears, the exception of one
"Scribbles the anonymous) has by now figured out that neither Tom nor I are
anti-barefoot. Quite the contrary. We have each said that horses that can be
or remain barefoot should, and those that need shoes, get them. It appears
that this concept is far beyond the intellectual capabilities of one Scribbles
the anonymous. The only place I may be in silight disagreement with Tom is
that in my particular practice, occasionally ,owners, not the horse do get to
decide whether the horse is shod or barefoot, and this has to do with the
dictates of the show ring more than anything else. Otherwise, as Tom has
rightly and often pointed out, it is the horse who determines whether or not it
needs shoes.
And, speaking only for myself, if speaking out about the unnecessary, invasive,
destructive, injurious, and overall, bad for the horse trimming for barefoot
protocols of
of the Strasser Lunatic Fringe is seen by some(who have yet to provide either a
CV or their real name(s) ) as the ranting and ravings of a lunatic, then I will
accept that accolade with honor and pride.
So, whats it to be Scribbles? Will you provide a CV? Will you take up the
challange offered by Tom? Or, like a cockroach, will you , having been exposed
to the light of day, scuttle quickly along the edge of equidom until you find
some readily available dark hole to hide in?
Rick Burten, CJF,RMF
Tom Stovall
Re: The so-called "barefoot movement"
>>Because, you ignorant twit, nobody who has the best interests of >>horses at heart ever advocated leaving all horses barefooted under all
>>circumstances and that's exactly what the idiotic "barefoot" movement
>>headed up by Strasser and her cult is all about. Read the goddam
>>literature, starting with Stashak and Rooney, then get back to me on >>the barefoot business. Some horses need shoeing, some don't...
>>I like horses. Fools like yourself, who push an agenda that's
>>potentially harmful to horses, give me gas.
>You are locked into your fixed beliefs about what the barefoot
>movement is all about, and you obviously have many misconceptions
>about it...
Perhaps you might benefit by actually reading the credo of the the group
about whom you feel I have "many misconceptions," to wit: "This group
is dedicated to the care and welfare of barefoot horses, everywhere, all
breeds..."
Perhaps you missed the part about the group's dedication being limited
to the welfare of BAREFOOT horses, not the welfare of horses.
>I would suggest that it is you who is pushing an agenda. I have only
>said that it works for me and have never said that it would work for
>all...
I'll certainly fess up to pushing the "some horses need shoeing, some
don't" agenda, an agenda that considers the welfare of all horses.
>It is you who continually rants about barefoot people advocating
>barefoot under any and all circumstances. I never have advocated that
>at all. You must not read what people write. As soon as barefoot is
>mentioned, you start yelling and cease listening...
Despite your attempt at damage control, you've advised several pilgrims
to join a group that is dedicated ONLY to the welfare of barefoot
horses.
>Calling names seems to be the meat of all your arguments. You attempt
>to distract with seemingly folksy rants, and name calling...
It's not an ad hominem fallacy to point out the truth: anyone who
advocates leaving a horse barefooted under all circumstances - as does
the "barefoot movement" - is, at best, a fool.
>You demand that I read such and such a reference...
Reading the relevant literature before giving advice that can impact the
well being of a horse seems like a good idea to me. Did you wish to
argue otherwise?
>I read this group because I am interested in the experiences of others
>with their horses. I do read almost continually about shod horses and
>barefoot horses. After reading and discussing, I still choose to have
>my horses barefoot...
YOU choose? Therein lies the basic flaw in your argument: in reality,
the horse, not the owner, determines the need for shoes.
>No, I don't do it blindly. My horses are pleasure ridden Quarter
>Horses who don't have excessive demands placed on them...
As advertised, some horses need shoeing, some don't.
>However, I do know top performance horses who are barefoot. These areas
>include three day eventing, hunter jumper, and dressage...
I don't know of a any top performance horses that go barefoot all the
time, certainly no eventers or jumpers. Because their needs are vastly
different, I know of a bunch of hunters and dressage horses that can go
barefooted most of the time.
>NEVER would I have my horse barefoot if it was in pain...
While you claim you wouldn't leave a horse barefoot that was in pain,
that's EXACTLY the procedure advocated by some of your fellow travelers
in the so-called "barefoot movement", a group you tout at every
opportunity.
>I imagine that the name calling is your attempt to be the loveable
>curmudgeon of the rec.equestrian ng...
You mistake my calling a fool a fool as an attempt to be "lovable" -
actually, it's an attempt to maintain accurate nomenclature.
>You wind up sounding like a man locked in the past. i.e. My dad puts
>shoes on his horse, and I'll be damned if I do it any different...
I'll confess to being a fan of Lungwitz and Dollar, but do folks "locked
in the past" reference Stashak and Rooney?
>The barefoot movement has many many knowledgeable people involved...
Oh? Can you name one of these "knowledgeable people?" I've been around
a while, but I don't recall ever seeing a top level runner, eventer or
jumper going barefooted. On the other hand, some hunters and dressage
horses, under some conditions, can get along just fine without shoes -
but there's a world of difference between the needs of horses going fast
and changing direction at speed and horses that move slowly and change
direction at speeds approaching glacial.
>Upon reading what you write and the style in which you write, I
>wouldn't put one of my horses under your care...
It's customary to wait until you're asked to dance before you refuse and
I don't recall asking. Are you one of those fools who values form over
content?
>Heaven only knows how you would treat a horse who doesn't do it your
>way...
Heaven has never been demonstrated to "know" anything.
>You say you like horses. Someone with your anger obviously doesn't
>even like himself and therefore it's doubtful if you could like one of
>God's creatures...
I love psychobabble! Especially when it's done in conjunction with a
reference to an imaginary playmate, perhaps to emphasize the babbler's
inability to muster a cogent argument for valuing ignorance over
education. To reiterate: read the goddam literature, then get back to
me on any benefits of the so-called, "barefoot movement."
Tom Stovall
>>Mr. Stovall, spoken like a true red neck. Thank you so much for your
>>"informed" input. I'm sure you have the experience and knowledge to
>>offer helpful comments, but you seem to focus on saying nasty
>>belittling things. I have the best interests of horses behind my
>>words so why try to demean me? What's the point? You're a mean
>>spirited old fart.
Doc, as long as it ain't Jax and Jack, I'll just have whatever you're
having and enjoy the company.
Bill Kambic
>
> Do you mean you would like names of three day eventers, dressage
> riders, hunter jumper riders, etc? Here's a three day eventer in
> the States.
Yup.
Or would you like names of the barefoot horse experts?
I have a raft of "barefoot horse expert" names. Don't need any more.
> www.naturalhorsetrim.com/Section_23.htm
>
> >I'm giving you the chance to go beyond name calling by name posting. Up
to
> >the challenge?
> I will ask permission of the barefoot performance people that I know
> to use their names on the internet.
Good.
> >Enough of the dime store psychology.
>
> Psychiatry is my profession.
Indeed. Then you will know that anger is often justified when someone
demonstrate a particular, intentional obtuseness.
CMNewell
wrote:
>No, I don't do it blindly. My horses are pleasure ridden Quarter
>Horses who don't have excessive demands placed on them. However, I do
>know top performance horses who are barefoot. These areas include
>three day eventing, hunter jumper, and dressage.
People keep saying this, but no one ever says *who* these horses are.
I'd be interested in names of barefoot three-day horses, given that
most run cross country in big honkin' studs.
CMNewell
wrote:
>I know of one lady, Darolyn Butler, who says she runs endurance horses
>barefoot. She is out of the Houston area (Humble). She has a "track
>record" but there is no evidence in the official record about what's on the
>feet. She used to have a web site but it appears to be gone.
She also put shoes on her horses before the PAn Am endurance
championship in Vermont last year.
CMNewell
wrote:
>... Here's a three day eventer in
>the States.
I found the site interesting, but none of the horses there were
running three days. They were competing at lower levels in horse
trials. Sounds as though they are having some success with the feet,
though.
Copper
>I just discovered a group of horsepeople that claim their horses do
>better barefoot than with shoes. How true does this ring? Does it
>depend on breed or genetics or past care? I know a couple Arabians
>that do well locally like that but is this common? Just a thought.
>
>Deadra
Deadra, This is a site that shows performance horses going barefoot.
In my part of the country, it is a selling feature to be able to say
that your horse is going barefoot, and doing well. At three day
events around here, it is proudly announced on the public address
system when an eventer is barefoot AND trained naturally i.e. Parelli,
Branaman, or Ray Hunt training. The traditional horse community
applauds. (Also in our local horse magazines, a horse trained with
natural horsemanship brings a higher price no matter the discipline).
It seems that most of the barefoot community here amalgamates various
schools of thought on barefoot. Many respect Dr. Strasser for being a
pioneer in the area of natural living conditions for horses, but
consider her clinical trim rather radical. So techniques of people
like Jackson and LaPierre are probably followed more routinely. The
people that we have met in the barefoot movement tend to view their
horses as working partners versus inanimate objects like bicycles.
Personally that suits me and the lifestyle I live.
I do have horses that are sound and content with being barefoot, but
two of five wears Old Mac Boots on the trail. Comparing their hooves
to when we began trimming is like night and day. I agree that the
condition of the hooves and the movement of the horse will tell you if
your horse is a barefoot candidate. However, don't give up too soon.
There is a lengthy transition period where using boots may be
necessary for the comfort of your horse. Good luck in making a
decision.
http://www.tribeequus.com/action.html#ctr
Madeline Rockwell
"Copper" <Cop...@nothere.invalid> wrote in message
news:mitn7vshi58lkrth1...@4ax.com...
I believe he was giving you the option of posting your real name.
> >Enough of the dime store psychology.
>
> Psychiatry is my profession.
>
There's a scary thought.
madeline rockwell
Bill Kambic
> On 18 Mar 2003 16:38:21 -0800, dead...@hotmail.com (deadra) wrote:
>
> >I just discovered a group of horsepeople that claim their horses do
> >better barefoot than with shoes. How true does this ring? Does it
> >depend on breed or genetics or past care? I know a couple Arabians
> >that do well locally like that but is this common? Just a thought.
> >
> >Deadra
>
> Deadra, This is a site that shows performance horses going barefoot.
> In my part of the country, it is a selling feature to be able to say
> that your horse is going barefoot, and doing well. At three day
> events around here, it is proudly announced on the public address
> system when an eventer is barefoot AND trained naturally i.e. Parelli,
> Branaman, or Ray Hunt training. The traditional horse community
> applauds. (Also in our local horse magazines, a horse trained with
> natural horsemanship brings a higher price no matter the discipline).
This is probably true. The reason, of course, is that the "Big Name Guru
Equine Axis of Evil" has run a "blazer" on a bunch of people who know even
less than they do. They do NOT advocate "Natural Horsmanship" (which is an
oxymoron) they advocate ANTHROPOMORPHIC HORSEMANSHIP (which puts the ego and
agenda of the human ahead of the needs of the horse). Indeed, in the Equine
Axis of Evil, the Prime Directive is to perform as many walletectomies on
the marks as possible before they get wise.
> It seems that most of the barefoot community here amalgamates various
> schools of thought on barefoot. Many respect Dr. Strasser for being a
> pioneer in the area of natural living conditions for horses, but
> consider her clinical trim rather radical. So techniques of people
> like Jackson and LaPierre are probably followed more routinely. The
> people that we have met in the barefoot movement tend to view their
> horses as working partners versus inanimate objects like bicycles.
> Personally that suits me and the lifestyle I live.
People can view horses in any way they like. But no matter how they view
them the external reality is that horses are horses. People who think along
Copper's line do not love horses, they are IN LOVE with horses. They love a
certain, very romantic ideal of horses. They then do what they can, in the
name of this love, to bend the horse in front of them to their ideal.
Personally, I consider this monstrous. But, hey, horses are chattels and
owners can do what they want until they run afoul of the animal cruelty
laws.
As long as they stay in their own bailiwick I don't say much. But when they
start to try and sell their "snake oil" to others I think I have a duty to
speak.
> I do have horses that are sound and content with being barefoot, but
> two of five wears Old Mac Boots on the trail.
First chink in the armor. A horse wearing a boot is not barefoot.
Comparing their hooves
> to when we began trimming is like night and day.
In what way? Specifically?
I agree that the
> condition of the hooves and the movement of the horse will tell you if
> your horse is a barefoot candidate. However, don't give up too soon.
> There is a lengthy transition period where using boots may be
> necessary for the comfort of your horse.
This is a GREAT half truth. If you engaging in proper equine husbandry they
you are engaging in proper equine husbandry. You are already feeding a
ration based upon good quality forage. You are seeing that proper exercise
is had. The horse has free access to clean water. If you are doing these
things and the horse has good quality hoof then you are OK. If you are
doing these things and horse does not have good quality hoof then the
problem is not in management (and a change of management will not help) but
has a genetic difficulty. Address the consequences of that difficulty.
There is a Golden Rule of Equine Husbandry: You give the horse what it
needs, when it needs it, and in appropriate quantity and quality. Follow
this rule and you cannot make a mistake. Substitute your ego or agenda for
any part of this rule and I can just about guarntee you a non-success.
Thomas Bloomer
>"Scribbles" <ret...@nonexist.invalid> wrote in message
>On 18 Mar 2003 16:38:21 -0800, dead...@hotmail.com (deadra) wrote:
>>I just discovered a group of horsepeople that claim their horses do
>>better barefoot than with shoes. How true does this ring?
It is an absolute truth for all horses that do not need shoes.
>>Does it
>>depend on breed or genetics or past care?
Regardless of breed, it depends on the individual horse and the tasks it
must perform within the environment it lives.
>> I know a couple Arabians
>>that do well locally like that but is this common?
Common relative to what conditions? Pasture ornaments with healthy hoof
horn?
> Just a thought.
>>
>>Deadra
>Well Deadra, you got several pleasant answers from sane people who
>thought a horse could do well barefoot unless there was some problem
>with the hoof. Then the farriers Stovall and Burten rant and rave like
>the lunatics they are.
If those folks are lunatics, count me in as a lunatic.
>I have several horses that do very well barefoot and know many other
>owners whose horses are going well barefoot. I trim my own horses and
>find it to be satisfying.
Goody for you! Should we consider your example and extrapolate from it that
all horses can remain sound under all conditions without shoes?
--
Tom Bloomer
Professional Farrier
Hartly, DE
Scribbles
<bloomer(AT)snip.net> wrote:
>>"Scribbles" <ret...@nonexist.invalid> wrote in message
>>On 18 Mar 2003 16:38:21 -0800, dead...@hotmail.com (deadra) wrote:
>
>>>I just discovered a group of horsepeople that claim their horses do
>>>better barefoot than with shoes. How true does this ring?
>
>It is an absolute truth for all horses that do not need shoes.
>>I have several horses that do very well barefoot and know many other
>>owners whose horses are going well barefoot. I trim my own horses and
>>find it to be satisfying.
>
>Goody for you! Should we consider your example and extrapolate from it that
>all horses can remain sound under all conditions without shoes?
You should consider my example and extrapolate from it that my horses
and the many horses of other people I know do well without shoes. Also,
others may find it satisfying to tend to their horse's hooves.
It seems that this ng. has many people who try to push their own agendas
to the point of selectively interpreting what has actually been written.
--
So the statement "I can't ride my horse without shoes" is not a reason
to shoe, but rather a reason to investigate and remove the causes which
have brought the hooves into such a poor condition. "A Lifetime of
Soundness" by Dr. vet. med. Hiltrud Strasser
Bill Kambic
> >Goody for you! Should we consider your example and extrapolate from it
that
> >all horses can remain sound under all conditions without shoes?
>
> You should consider my example and extrapolate from it that my horses
> and the many horses of other people I know do well without shoes. Also,
> others may find it satisfying to tend to their horse's hooves.
First, establish that you have any horses.
>
> It seems that this ng. has many people who try to push their own agendas
> to the point of selectively interpreting what has actually been written.
You would certainly know about that.
Eileen Morgan
"Copper" <Cop...@nothere.invalid> wrote in message
news:nevo7vg3tmbrcu3bd...@4ax.com...
> At three day
> events around here, it is proudly announced on the public address
> system when an eventer is barefoot AND trained naturally i.e. Parelli,
> Branaman, or Ray Hunt training. The traditional horse community
> applauds.
Where the hell are you? I've never heard such things at the events I attend.
--
--
Eileen Morgan
March 30th Clinic Information: http://www.enter.net/~edlehman/USEAAR2.html
The Mare's Nest
http://www.enter.net/~edlehman
---
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Bill Kambic
> Where the hell are you? I've never heard such things at the events I
attend.
Disneyland? Neverneverland? Oz? (I mean the one with the Yellow Brick
Road, not the one with the big Rock.)
Of course, if he/she/it is really a shrink, maybe they live in a vacant
castle in the air.
Tom Stovall
>>I just discovered a group of horsepeople that claim their horses do
>>better barefoot than with shoes. How true does this ring? Does it
>>depend on breed or genetics or past care? I know a couple Arabians
>>that do well locally like that but is this common? Just a thought.
>Deadra, This is a site that shows performance horses going barefoot...
Any horse not precluded by rule from doing so can perform barefooted;
however, the number of horses who perform successfully in activities
involving speed and/or sudden changes of direction comprises a minute
percentage, if any.
>In my part of the country, it is a selling feature to be able to say
>that your horse is going barefoot, and doing well...
Define "well." In my part of the country, Texas, the ability
consistently compete successfully, not "well", determines the value of
performance horses - and horses that need to be shod are shod without
regard to the nattering of fools.
>At three day events around here, it is proudly announced on the public
>address system when an eventer is barefoot AND trained naturally i.e.
>Parelli, Branaman, or Ray Hunt training...
Broke is as broke does. Around here, the winners of various horse
events are announced and nobody is silly enough to applaud a losing
effort simply because the horse happens to be from the barn of some
idiot who thinks "natural" is a proper noun.
>The traditional horse community applauds. (Also in our local horse
>magazines, a horse trained with natural horsemanship brings a higher
>price no matter the discipline)...
If so, I can't help but wonder where such an accumulation of fools could
be gathered in one place. The thought of such folks voting, serving on
juries, teaching school, holding office, etc. is a damned scary
proposition.
>It seems that most of the barefoot community here amalgamates various
>schools of thought on barefoot. Many respect Dr. Strasser for being a
>pioneer in the area of natural living conditions for horses,...
Strasser didn't "pioneer" the idea of "natural" living conditions for
domestic horses, the concept can be found in any college-level animal
science text. Pragmatically, such conditions are neither possible nor
desirable for ALL horses.
>but consider her clinical trim rather radical. So techniques of people
>like Jackson and LaPierre are probably followed more routinely...
Strasser's one-size-fits-all nonsense is demonstrably harmful and,
before you encourage folks with performance horses to follow the idiotic
example of your gaggle of doofi, you might want to read Tom Bloomer's
report of his interview with Mr. LaPierre.
>The people that we have met in the barefoot movement tend to view their
>horses as working partners versus inanimate objects like bicycles.
>Personally that suits me and the lifestyle I live...
Your personal lifestyle aside, anthropomorphism has the potential to
hurt horses.
>I do have horses that are sound and content with being barefoot, but
>two of five wears Old Mac Boots on the trail...
While Old Macs are certainly not an acceptable substitute for any horse
that needs shoeing, a horse wearing Old Macs is not barefooted.
>Comparing their hooves to when we began trimming is like night and day.
>I agree that the condition of the hooves and the movement of the horse
>will tell you if your horse is a barefoot candidate. However, don't
>give up too soon. There is a lengthy transition period where using
>boots may be necessary for the comfort of your horse...
Nonsense! There's no "transition period" in making determination of a
horse's needs. Horses are best left barefooted unless they need shoeing
and the reasons horses need shoeing are these: protection, traction, or
to effect a therapeutic change in their way of going.
Thus endeth the lesson.
>Good luck in making a decision...
There's no "luck" involved in making a determination of a horse's needs,
the horse makes that determination.
Catja Pafort
> It seems that most of the barefoot community here amalgamates various
> schools of thought on barefoot. Many respect Dr. Strasser for being a
> pioneer in the area of natural living conditions for horses,
The only new thing in her method of keeping horses is her recommendation
that one should provide a bog around the watertrough - apart from that,
there's nothing new about it.
And 'natural' for horses means 'an environment in which some horses
happen to be able to survive.' It can be under just about any climatic
conditions, anywhere in the world, and range from boggy and halfway
underwater (Camargue) to stony deserts. Recreating all of them in the
back fourty is not possible, nor really desirable.
> but
> consider her clinical trim rather radical. So techniques of people
> like Jackson and LaPierre are probably followed more routinely. The
> people that we have met in the barefoot movement tend to view their
> horses as working partners versus inanimate objects like bicycles.
> Personally that suits me and the lifestyle I live.
I'd rather my horse was treated well than treated with love, but
wrongly.
Catja
and the Count
Bill Kambic
> I'd rather my horse was treated well than treated with love, but
> wrongly.
Very well said.
neighsayer
>... you got several pleasant answers from sane people who
>thought a horse could do well barefoot unless there was some problem
>with the hoof. Then the farriers Stovall and Burten rant and rave like
>the lunatics they are.
Neither seems irrational to me, in their arguments regarding hoofcare,
and your opinions of them aren't the horse-related information I seek.
>I have several horses that do very well barefoot and know many other
>owners whose horses are going well barefoot. I trim my own horses and
>find it to be satisfying.
That's all well and good, but that doesn't change the point being made
that some horses need to be shod to do as their handlers require of them,
under the conditions in which those requirements are made of them.
Now, if you could show that the act of shoeing horses removes a first
line of defense, that wear on the hoof wall would prevent a horse from
engaging in activities that'd otherwise begin to damage other structures,
such as the appendicular skeletal frame, it'd be an interesting argument.
neighsayer
>The only new thing in her method of keeping horses is her recommendation
>that one should provide a bog around the watertrough ...
That's not new.
>And 'natural' for horses means 'an environment in which some horses
>happen to be able to survive.' It can be under just about any climatic
>conditions, anywhere in the world, and range from boggy and halfway
>underwater (Camargue) to stony deserts. Recreating all of them in the
>back fourty is not possible, nor really desirable.
Natural more often tends to mean 'nasty, brutish and short', as they say.
>> but
>> consider her clinical trim rather radical. So techniques of people
>> like Jackson and LaPierre are probably followed more routinely. The
>> people that we have met in the barefoot movement tend to view their
>> horses as working partners versus inanimate objects like bicycles.
>> Personally that suits me and the lifestyle I live.
>
>I'd rather my horse was treated well than treated with love, but
>wrongly.
(Well, I don't define love as 'whatever feels good to some human
without any actual regard for any other living thing', but I do agree
that some attempt to refer to it that way.)
There are optimal ways to manage horses, but those include even
the management of the human expectations/applications of horses.
Scribbles
wrote:
>Of course, if he/she/it is really a shrink, maybe they live in a vacant
>castle in the air.
See how you people jump to conclusions that are not warranted? Copper
stated "Psychiatry is my profession." not "I am a shrink".
And get the joke straight.
neurotics build castles in their mind.
psychotics live in them and
psychiatrists collect the rent.
Copper
>I just discovered a group of horsepeople that claim their horses do
>better barefoot than with shoes. How true does this ring? Does it
>depend on breed or genetics or past care? I know a couple Arabians
>that do well locally like that but is this common? Just a thought.
>
>Deadra
Deadra, Here are some interesting book reviews and barefoot sites.
Tom Stovall says as follows:
>As I recall, I cited Stashak's, "Adams, Lameness in Horses" and
>Rooney's, "The Lame Horse", both of which contain literally hundreds of
>annotations concerning shoes and shoeing methods,
Here per chance is a review of Dr. Rooney's latest book:
The Lame Horse
by James R. Rooney, D.V.M.
Dr. Rooney's revised version of this classic text adds an interesting
twist, he now advocates barefootedness! Dr. Rooney, the recognized
authority on equine biomechanics and lameness, covers these topics in
extreme detail, with hundreds of illustrations and actual x-rays. Of
special interest to natural hoofcare advocates, Dr. Rooney writes,
"You have probably guessed that I am an advocate of the barefooted
horse. That's the way he was made, that's the way he should go. All
too little attention has been paid to that "natural" foot. Certain
ideas have developed over the centuries as to what the foot should
look like and too many feet are forced into that mold."
Here's a review of a book by Jaime Jackson:
The Natural Horse
Foundation for Natural Horsemanship
by Jaime Jackson
Author Jaime Jackson has been a professional farrier, and is now a
natural hoofcare provider. In the 1980's, he headed alone into
America's wild horse country, hoping to find a humane, "natural" model
for domestic horse care. Frustrated by the way horses are often
mistreated by their owners, Jackson felt much of this resulted from
misunderstanding the nature of the horse. What Jackson discovered is
that horses do indeed have a natural order, and that knowledge can be
applied in truly helpful ways to our domestic horses.
In a thoughtful, systematic approach, Jackson lays out his
revolutionary ideas about natural horse care in this remarkable book.
In the first chapters, the reader steps through wild horse country
with Jackson as guide, and is drawn into the nuances of social
structure, locomotion and gaits, and the hooves-which Jackson states
with authority, "are terribly misunderstood in the domestic horse
world." Having armed the reader with a solid foundation of the horse's
natural world, Jackson then challenges the reader and nearly every
major principle of modern horse care, to "apply what we have learned."
Here's a barefoot and holistic health site:
http://w.webring.com/hub?ring=barefoothorses
Here's a world renowned trainer (former farrier):
Celebrity News: John Lyons Trims His Own
Check out the April 2002 edition of leading trainer John Lyons’
Perfect Horse magazine for an article on responsible barefoot
hoofcare; it is a pro farrier look at how to keep a horse sound
without shoes.
Hoofcare Magazine helped John’s staff prepare the article, which has
photos of one of farrier/vet Tia Nelson’s Montana barefoot trims. (She
was a farrier for a long time before she went to vet school.)
Despite all the pro-farrier points in the article, John ‘fesses up
that he has now learned to trim the feet of his famous clinic
companion, the Appy Zip, and there’s a photo of him rasping one of
Zip’s hooves. (Zip doesn’t even have a halter on, of course.)
Here's another interesting barefoot site:
http://www.sportpony.com/Why%20barefoot.htm
"Transition to Barefoot
Taking any particular horse from shoes to barefoot can take some time.
A few horses will trot off barefoot on rocks and you will wonder why
you ever put shoes on them. Many horses will be tender on rocks and
hard ground at first.
The most important part of the transition to barefoot is getting an
appropriate "barefoot trim" done on your horse. The typical "pasture"
trim will not keep a barefoot horse sound. Also, barefoot horses
should NEVER have the toe callous removed (area of sole between the
tip of the frog and the toe). Most farriers thin this area when
placing shoes.
This is the main reason people think their horse "can't go barefoot."
When the toe callous is left untouched and the trim is appropriate
most SOUND horses can easily and comfortably transition to barefoot. "
Read about some barefoot success stories from around the world here:
http://www.thehorseshoof.com/success.html
Read about barefoot dressage horses here:
http://www.horrellhilldressage.com/hoofcare.html
A site with good books:
http://www.horsefriendly.com/bookstore/hoof.htmlHer
Here is a good unbiased article written by Lisa Simons on Dr.
Strasser:
http://www.hoofcare.com/PDF/strasserarticle.pdf
Here is a site on equine podiatrists for endurance horses:
http://www.rvhr.com/Equine%20Podiatrist.htm
There is lots of information out there on barefoot horses.
Bill Kambic
> On Sat, 22 Mar 2003 14:14:51 -0500, "Bill Kambic" <wka...@vic.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Of course, if he/she/it is really a shrink, maybe they live in a vacant
> >castle in the air.
>
> See how you people jump to conclusions that are not warranted? Copper
> stated "Psychiatry is my profession." not "I am a shrink".
Care to explain the difference?
> And get the joke straight.
>
> neurotics build castles in their mind.
> psychotics live in them and
> psychiatrists collect the rent.
I did get the joke straight. Note I stated a "vacant castle." Like one
where there was no tennant. So the shrink could move in on temp basis?
Bill Kambic
<snipped for brevity>
Still no names.
Scribbles
wrote:
>"Scribbles" wrote in message
>
>> On Sat, 22 Mar 2003 14:14:51 -0500, "Bill Kambic" <wka...@vic.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Of course, if he/she/it is really a shrink, maybe they live in a vacant
>> >castle in the air.
>>
>> See how you people jump to conclusions that are not warranted? Copper
>> stated "Psychiatry is my profession." not "I am a shrink".
>
>Care to explain the difference?
Let's see. There are:
psychiatric social workers, psychiatric nurses, psychiatric occupational
therapists, psychiatric recreational therapists, psychologists who work
in psychiatry, medical doctors who work in psychiatry, criminologists
who work in psychiatry, security officers who work in institutions for
the criminally insane, dieticians who work in psychiatric institutions.
Tom Stovall
>>As I recall, I cited Stashak's, "Adams, Lameness in Horses" and
>>Rooney's, "The Lame Horse", both of which contain literally hundreds >>of annotations concerning shoes and shoeing methods...
>Here per chance is a review of Dr. Rooney's latest book:
>Dr. Rooney's revised version of this classic text adds an interesting
>twist, he now advocates barefootedness!...
The review, replete with editorial content and barefoot spin, borders on
disingenuous. Dr. Rooney, as do most other farriers and equine vets,
advocates keeping a horse barefooted until the horse demonstrates it
needs shoeing, not after the horse has demonstrated it needs shoeing.
Read the book instead of the reviews, you'll appear less the fool.
[deletia: tons of unsubstantiated anecdotal fluff]
Did you ever wonder why - despite all the claims - a feral foot in an
abrasive environment has never been demonstrated to be an ideal foot for
a domestic horse in varied environments, especially a domestic horse
engaged in activities requiring efficient motion?
Have you bothered to learn the means by which shoes can enhance the
efficiency of gait in horses engaged in certain activities, especially
those activities involving speed and sudden changes of direction?
Have you ever wondered why there are few to no barefooted horses winning
races (on the flat, in harness, or over jumps), rodeo's timed events,
horse show speed events, cross country tests, jumping competitions,
cuttings, reinings, stock horse contests, and any other equine endeavor
that puts a premium on efficient equine performance?
Did you know it's against the rules of racing in most parimutuel
jurisdictions to start a barefooted horse without steward's permission?
Do you know why?
Do you know that certain pathologies of the foot (e.g., articular
ringbone, most forms of navicular syndrome, pedal osteitis, some DIJ
problems, etc.) are impossible to treat/palliate without shoes? Do you
know that the rate of stabilization is much greater using mechanical
pressure than environmental pressure? Do you know why? Do you know
that Strasser, et al, advocate leaving many such horses barefooted and
living in pain, instead of shod and pain free?
Why do you think nobody was dumb enough to call me when I challenged the
barefoot contingent to a test of the efficacy of their "barefootedness"
when applied to a shod, asymptomatic horse that has been diagnosed with
navicular syndrome? All the proponents of "barefootedness" had to do to
silence one of their most vocal and outspoken critics - as well as put
me in the poorhouse - was to pull the shoes off a horse that had walked
up sound, have anyone of their choosing trim that horse, then have that
horse walk off barefooted and as sound as he walked up.
The answer is simple: Some horses need shoeing and some don't.
Copper
>I just discovered a group of horsepeople that claim their horses do
>better barefoot than with shoes. How true does this ring? Does it
>depend on breed or genetics or past care? I know a couple Arabians
>that do well locally like that but is this common? Just a thought.
>
>Deadra
Another interesting barefoot site:
http://annalar16.tripod.com/aboutbarefootedhorses/id10.html
Bill Kambic
<snipped for brevity>
> Let's see. There are:
> psychiatric social workers, psychiatric nurses, psychiatric occupational
> therapists, psychiatric recreational therapists, psychologists who work
> in psychiatry, medical doctors who work in psychiatry, criminologists
> who work in psychiatry, security officers who work in institutions for
> the criminally insane, dieticians who work in psychiatric institutions.
Hmmm. "Psychiatry is my profession." This has some fairly clear
implications to the casual reader.
But, it could be something else. By being non-specific, but implying some
higher level of expertise, you might "smoke one by" and not get asked, "just
what kind of a professional are you?" Disingenuity by ambiguity, so to
speak.
Of course, Copper could just answer up and solve the entire problem.
Susan Ravan
recreational therapists, psychologists do NOT work in psychiatry as it
is a different field, criminalists,security officers and dietitians.
They are NOT in the profession of psychiatry. All psychiatrists are
doctors.
Try again.
Susan Ravan
Thomas Bloomer
>that one should provide a bog around the watertrough - apart from that,
>there's nothing new about it.
That ain't new. Butler says that in Principles of Horseshoeing II, which
was published several dacades ago. Maybe he will publish a new book,
"Principles of NATURAL Horseshoeing" so that us farriers can feel better
about shoeing horses that need shoeing.
--
Tom Bloomer
Hartly, DE
Thomas Bloomer
That's a pretty good description of me! 5'6", 200lbs - Naturally, the ideal
build for a farrier.
Thomas Bloomer
>to shoe, but rather a reason to investigate and remove the causes which
>have brought the hooves into such a poor condition. "A Lifetime of
>Soundness" by Dr. vet. med. Hiltrud Strasser
Since the cause of most bad hooves is DNA, are you going to start
sterilizing or killing horses with bad feet so that they can not reproduce?
That is the TRUE NATURAL solution. Show me a mustang with bad feet . . .
they never survive long enough to breed.
Thomas Bloomer
from "Basic Mechanics of the Hoof and Horseshoe," by James Rooney, D.V.M.
"I shall not enter into discussion and/or polemics about the several
horseshoeing “systems” said to be based on the study of feral horse feet.
Consideration of my earlier report (Rooney 1999) on the wearing of such feet
will show how incorrect much of the interpretation of the shape and wearing
of these feet has been. This misinterpretation has led to some bizarre
shoeing systems that demonstrate how wonderfully adaptable the horse is to
even the most misguided human interference."
You can read the entire article at
http://www.horseshoes.com/farrierssites/sites/rooney/basicmechanics1/basicme
chanics1.htm
or you can read all of his online content - most of it related to
THERAPEUTIC SHOEING:
http://www.horseshoes.com/farrierssites/sites/rooney/index.htm
--
Tom Bloomer
Hartly, DE
"Copper" <Cop...@nothere.invalid> wrote in message
news:71pp7vkhtji25h6fm...@4ax.com...
Check out the April 2002 edition of leading trainer John LyonsÕ
Perfect Horse magazine for an article on responsible barefoot
hoofcare; it is a pro farrier look at how to keep a horse sound
without shoes.
Hoofcare Magazine helped JohnÕs staff prepare the article, which has
photos of one of farrier/vet Tia NelsonÕs Montana barefoot trims. (She
was a farrier for a long time before she went to vet school.)
Despite all the pro-farrier points in the article, John Ôfesses up
that he has now learned to trim the feet of his famous clinic
companion, the Appy Zip, and thereÕs a photo of him rasping one of
ZipÕs hooves. (Zip doesnÕt even have a halter on, of course.)
Copper
wrote:
>Then they are social workers, nurses, occupational therapists,
>recreational therapists, psychologists do NOT work in psychiatry as it
>is a different field, criminalists,security officers and dietitians.
>They are NOT in the profession of psychiatry. All psychiatrists are
>doctors.
>Try again.
>Susan Ravan
Psychiatry is heavily populated by psychologists doing psychological
testing on psychiatric patients, and doing therapy in psychiatric
hospitals. Psychologists,who call themselves doctor, have Phd's.
Psychiatrists are medical doctors who take residency in psychiatry and
then qualify through written and oral exams to become psychiatrists.
Many medical doctors work in psychiatry due to the shortage of
psychiatrists. Psychiatry, whether it be practiced in hospitals or
in the community, employs multi-disciplinary teams of professionals.
Most professionals on these multi-disciplinary teams refer to
themselves as professionals working in psychiatry. Try again Susan.
Copper
<bloomer(AT)snip.net> wrote:
>In contrast to what you have quoted from Rooney below. Here is an excerpt
>from "Basic Mechanics of the Hoof and Horseshoe," by James Rooney, D.V.M.
>
>This misinterpretation has led to some bizarre
>shoeing systems that demonstrate how wonderfully adaptable the horse is to
>even the most misguided human interference."
That's why the barefoot movement exists!! We want horses to live
without the iron shoes that distort their feet. I totally agree with
Dr. Rooney.
Copper
>I just discovered a group of horsepeople that claim their horses do
>better barefoot than with shoes. How true does this ring? Does it
>depend on breed or genetics or past care? I know a couple Arabians
>that do well locally like that but is this common? Just a thought.
>
>Deadra
Interesting information from Dr. Rooney and Dr. Bowker at this site:
Very fair minded. Talks about the benefits of barefoot and the
importance of applying shoes properly.
http://www.commonsensehorse.com/news.html
Terry von Gease
news:3e7c...@snipnews.snip.net...
>
> >"Scribbles" <ret...@nonexist.invalid> wrote in message
>
> >>I just discovered a group of horsepeople that claim their horses do
> >>better barefoot than with shoes. How true does this ring?
>
Ah, but which ones?
--
Terry
"I said I never had much use for one,
I never said I didn't know how to use one."
M. Quigley
Copper
>I just discovered a group of horsepeople that claim their horses do
>better barefoot than with shoes. How true does this ring? Does it
>depend on breed or genetics or past care? I know a couple Arabians
>that do well locally like that but is this common? Just a thought.
>
>Deadra
Another EXCELLENT site. This site is sponsored by Michigan State
University. In particular read Dr. Bowker's research under this
title:
Physiological Trimming for a Healthy Equine Foot
Copper
I believe that the horse's environment is a stronger influence.
Please read Dr. Bowker's research and info. from the following site:
http://www.ladyfarrier.com/content_pages/2002/summer/barefoot_persuasion.html
"Dr. Bowker places horses into two categories. Good-footed horses live
into their late twenties or thirties with few or no lameness problems.
Bad-footed horses tend not to survive that long and are plagued by
lameness issues all of their lives. So, what makes a horse good or bad
footed in the first place?
The horse’s environment is 90% of the determining factor of what
makes a good-footed or bad-footed horse. Before a horse is born, all
four of his feet are exactly the same for the only time in his life.
Within two days of birth, the structures in the hoof have already
adapted to environmental pressure to such an extent that a pathologist
could tell which were front feet and which were hind without seeing
them on the horse. The architecture, functioning and even the
biochemistry of the horse’s foot change constantly in response to the
environmental stresses placed upon it. Mother Nature is going to find
a way to support the leg however she can. Normal physiologic demands
will produce a normal homeostasis, meaning the foot will find its
level and stay there. However, if the physiologic changes become more
excessive, the feet will adapt in more extreme ways. Some changes may
be beneficial, some may be temporarily beneficial then may turn out to
be detrimental in the long run. Horse owners, veterinarians and
farriers are a primary cause of environmental stress and so are
ultimately responsible for the development of a good-footed horse."
Scribbles
<bloomer(AT)snip.net> wrote:
>>So the statement "I can't ride my horse without shoes" is not a reason
>>to shoe, but rather a reason to investigate and remove the causes which
>>have brought the hooves into such a poor condition. "A Lifetime of
>>Soundness" by Dr. vet. med. Hiltrud Strasser
>
>Since the cause of most bad hooves is DNA, ...
Do you have a documented study backing up your statement or is it idle
speculation?
Copper
>I just discovered a group of horsepeople that claim their horses do
>better barefoot than with shoes. How true does this ring? Does it
>depend on breed or genetics or past care? I know a couple Arabians
>that do well locally like that but is this common? Just a thought.
>
>Deadra
Here's old news from W.Robert Cook FRCVS., PhD.,Professor of Surgery
Emeritus Tufts University School of Veterinary Medicine. He writes an
open letter to Veterinarians supporting Dr. Strasser. However, she is
a respected barefoot expert.
http://www.thehorseshoof.com/drcook.html
Scribbles
<bloomer(AT)snip.net> wrote:
>In contrast to what you have quoted from Rooney below. Here is an excerpt
>from "Basic Mechanics of the Hoof and Horseshoe," by James Rooney, D.V.M.
Thomas
I wish you'd learn how to use your news reader to correctly quote,
attribute and reply to messages. Your top posting is some instances
using the "-- " delimiter above your signature causes a properly setup
news reader to eliminate everything below the "-- ".
The following sites offer good tips:
http://tgos.org/newbie/reading.html
http://www.i-hate-computers.demon.co.uk/
http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html
Margie
wrote:
>Path: text1.nnrp.aus1!firehose2!nntp4!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!sjc70.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news1.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail
>X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 24.84.120.212
>From: Scribbles<ret...@nonexist.invalid>
<....>
>Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 17:19:22 GMT
>NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.69.255.206
On Sun, 23 Mar 2003 17:23:19 GMT, Copper <Cop...@nothere.invalid>
wrote:
>Path: text1.nnrp.aus1!firehose2!nntp4!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!sjc70.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news2.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail
>X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 24.84.120.212
><...>
>Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 17:23:19 GMT
>NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.69.255.206
Fascinating.
CMNewell
wrote:
>Here's old news from W.Robert Cook FRCVS., PhD.,Professor of Surgery
>Emeritus Tufts University School of Veterinary Medicine. He writes an
>open letter to Veterinarians supporting Dr. Strasser. However, she is
>a respected barefoot expert.
>http://www.thehorseshoof.com/drcook.html
With all due respect to Dr. Cook, who was one of my teachers, his area
of expertise was ear, nose, and throat.
CMNewell, DVM
The Chuck of Eq
self-proclaimed vet
Surgeon General of the Bogbash Party
"You can be perverse, a horse cannot." --TvG
Bill Kambic
Well, hello!<g>
Why am I not surprised?
Thank you for this technoligcal tour de force (yes, I know it's French) and
the unmasking of yet another trolling zealot.
Susan Ravan
distort (your word) every horse's foot? I have seen shod horses for
more that 30 years and have never seen a distorted foot other than was
caused by disease/trauma. Those were NOT shod.
Susan Ravan
Susan Ravan
phrase. Your comprehension is sorely lacking. The rest of your prior
list is exactly what I called it. Using the term 'psychiatric' as an
adjective to any profession does not make that person a member of the
psychiatric field. I.e., being a nurse in a psychiatric ward does not
make that nurse a member of the psychiatric field.
Copper wrote:
>
>
> Psychiatry is heavily populated by psychologists
Well, duh, like the veterinary field is heavily populated by vets?
I would ask you to try again, but with gems like that, it would be a
waste of band width.
Susan Ravan
Copper
wrote:
>Read your first sentence carefully and pay close attention to your own
Please re-read yours.
> psychologists do NOT work in psychiatry as it
>is a different field,
You said that psychologists do not work in psychiatry. Of course
they work in psychiatry. They work in psychiatric hospitals,
psychiatric treatment facilities, forensic psychiatry, etc. They
perform psychological testing, evaluations, and give various forms of
psychotherapy. Yes, they also are in private practice, work as school
psychologists, etc. But they are an integral part of psychiatry as
well. To repeat psychiatry utilizes multi-disciplinary team members.
Speaking once again as a professional who works in psychiatry,
psychologists do work in the field of psychiatry. May I ask what
field do you think a psychiatric nurse works in? What field does a
psychiatric social worker work in? What field does a psychiatric
occupational therapist work in?
Yes Susan, there are professionals who identify themselves as
psychiatric nurses, psychiatric social workers, etc. What field do
you think an emergency room nurse works in? It is emergency medicine.
What field does a pediatric nurse work in? It is pediatrics. A
psychiatric nurse works in psychiatry. I think you are confused about
the differences between psychiatry and psychology. Psychiatrists can
and do perform psychotherapy, but also are medical doctors that
prescribe medication as well. Psychologists do not prescribe
medication.
We are slightly off the topic of barefoot horses. It seems that the
concept of someone choosing the barefoot lifestyle for their horses
angers you enough to want to attack in general and lose civility in
discussing issues. There is a point of view expressed at the
following site about negative attitudes that owners of barefoot horses
face http://www.gilfach-wen.co.uk/barefoot_transition.html
Copper
>With all due respect to Dr. Cook, who was one of my teachers, his area
>of expertise was ear, nose, and throat.
With all due respect, perhaps he got out of the box? The only real
education is self-education. Many of the great presidents of the USA
were farmers, lawyers, soldiers, school teachers, etc. Yet they
became great statesman and diplomats through self-education and
learning.
Copper
>I just discovered a group of horsepeople that claim their horses do
>better barefoot than with shoes. How true does this ring? Does it
>depend on breed or genetics or past care? I know a couple Arabians
>that do well locally like that but is this common? Just a thought.
>
>Deadra
Very happy horses singing the praises of going barefoot. Click on each
horse.
http://svt.se/hogafflahage/hogafflaHage_site/Kor/hestekor.swf
Terry von Gease
And this qualifies this particular barber-surgeon to comment on things hoof
in just what way? Merely because some small but computable probability
exists that it might be so?
Perhaps your abysmal lack of equine acumen is attributable in some small
part by the general state of decomposition of the rest of your cognitive
gear as demonstrated by the above demonstration of your critical thinking
and dialectic skills.
Scribbles
>On Sun, 23 Mar 2003 17:23:19 GMT, Copper <Cop...@nothere.invalid>
>wrote:
>>Here's old news from W.Robert Cook FRCVS., PhD.,Professor of Surgery
>>Emeritus Tufts University School of Veterinary Medicine. He writes an
>>open letter to Veterinarians supporting Dr. Strasser. However, she is
>>a respected barefoot expert.
>>http://www.thehorseshoof.com/drcook.html
>With all due respect to Dr. Cook, who was one of my teachers, his area
>of expertise was ear, nose, and throat.
What does that mean? Are you saying that veterinarians do not have a
working knowledge of different parts of a horse's body? Are you saying
that veterinarians are incapable of learning? An excerpt from his
letter follows:
"...I came away with a much better understanding of Strasser's logical
approach to trimming and of the sound criteria on which this approach
was based. It was a red-letter day for me and I only wished that I had
access to this information 50 years ago. The spirit of Bracy Clark, a
veterinarian who had tried to tell his colleagues some of these same
truths 200 years ago, was alive and well in Hiltrud Strasser! I was
proud to claim Clark as an alumnus of my own school, the Royal
Veterinary College, London. But I was also rather ashamed that my school
had failed to give him the support he deserved and had even tried to
suppress his findings. As human nature has not changed in the last two
centuries, I fear that the veterinary profession may fail, once again,
to take advantage of the second chance that Strasser is now offering. In
fact, her work does not threaten anyone. It provides equine
practitioners with valuable solutions to previously intractable problems
and it actually increases the amount of work for farriers.
Strasser's message, in essence, is disarmingly simple. First, keep the
horse in an environment that bears a similarity to its natural
environment (something that is within the capability of most horse
keepers today and should be as obligatory as the provision of food and
water). Secondly, allow the foot to be the shape and consistency that
nature intended. The first requirement means that a horse must not be
confined to a stall for 23 hours out of 24 each day. The second requires
that millions of years of hoof evolution should be allowed to do the job
it has evolved to do. At the risk of oversimplification, the message is
"no shoe, no stall, and no stagnation."
Currently, horse owners are showing a greater readiness to study and
adopt Strasser's recommendations on hoof care than either veterinarians
or farriers. Because of this, both veterinarians and farriers may soon
find themselves in the embarrassing situation of being faced with owners
who have a better understanding of the truth about the hoof than they
do. Unfortunately, this could lead to veterinarians becoming
increasingly sidelined on the topic of hoof care. ..."
CMNewell
wrote:
>On Sun, 23 Mar 2003 13:49:58 -0500, CMNewell
><res...@minglewood-arabs.net> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 23 Mar 2003 17:23:19 GMT, Copper <Cop...@nothere.invalid>
>>wrote:
>
>>>Here's old news from W.Robert Cook FRCVS., PhD.,Professor of Surgery
>>>Emeritus Tufts University School of Veterinary Medicine. He writes an
>>>open letter to Veterinarians supporting Dr. Strasser. However, she is
>>>a respected barefoot expert.
>>>http://www.thehorseshoof.com/drcook.html
>
>>With all due respect to Dr. Cook, who was one of my teachers, his area
>>of expertise was ear, nose, and throat.
>
>What does that mean? Are you saying that veterinarians do not have a
>working knowledge of different parts of a horse's body? Are you saying
>that veterinarians are incapable of learning?
No. I was merely making the point that, in light of Dr. Cook's
credentials being cited, that his area of professional expertise is in
the area of respiratory medicine of the equine.
(In fact, his views on airway dynamics led to hios development of the
bitless bridle. I was not at all surprised to see his name associated
with that.)
If I were looking for an expert opinion on airflow dynamics or
laryngeal hemiplegia, he'd be right up there at the top of the list.
If I were looking for a veterinary expert on hoof-related matters,
it would be more likely to be someone like Dr. Hood at Texas A&M, or
Dr. Redden, or somoene else whose primary professional work and
reasearch was in orthopedics and lameness, not airway function.
Susan Ravan
> Please re-read yours.
>
> > psychologists do NOT work in psychiatry as it
> >is a different field,
>
> You said that psychologists do not work in psychiatry. Of course
> they work in psychiatry.
psychiatry.
They work in psychiatric hospitals,
> psychiatric treatment facilities, forensic psychiatry, etc.
Working in a facility is hardly qualification. Hell, the janitor works
in a psychiatric hospital.
T
hey
> perform psychologica
l testing, evaluations,
Psychological, NOT psychiatric. Small difference there, bub.
and give various forms of
> psychotherapy.
Still not psychiatric. Get a dictionary and get a clue. They are not
the same.
Yes, they also are in private practice, work as school
> psychologists, etc.
Yep, still not psychiatric
But they are an integral part of psychiatry as
> well. To repeat psychiatry utilizes multi-disciplinary team members.
> Speaking once again as a professional who works in psychiatry,
> psychologists do work in the field of psychiatry.
Obviously, you are trying to give the impression that you are a shrink
and you are not. Hah! Since you want to elevate yourself, you must not
even be a nurse, maybe an orderly? Self esteem problem here? You post
anonymously (like all strassernatics) and then throw in that you are in
the field of psychology.
Ask a psychologist what field he/she works in. They WON'T say
psychiatry.
May I ask what
> field do you think a psychiatric nurse works in?
Nursing
What field does a
> psychiatric social worker work in?
Social work
What field does a psychiatric
> occupational therapist work in?
Occupational therapy
>
Not too bright if you needed these answers. I thought the questions
were a no-brainer. Guess not.
> Yes Susan, there are professionals who identify themselves as
> psychiatric nurses, psychiatric social workers, etc. What field do
> you think an emergency room nurse works in?
No, her degree is in nursing. She may work in the emergency room of a
hospital, but she is still a nurse.
> What field does a pediatric nurse work in?
No, her degree is in nursing also. Just like a nurse in the maternity
ward.
I think you are confused about
> the differences between psychiatry and psychology.
As a psychology major in college, I certainly can tell you that I know
the difference between the two. You seem to have the confusion.
Psychiatrists can
> and do perform psychotherapy, but also are medical doctors that
> prescribe medication as well. Psychologists do not prescribe
> medication.
That is the very basic difference. It is OBVIOUS from this thread that
you are neither.
>
> We are slightly off the topic of barefoot horses. It seems that the
> concept of someone choosing the barefoot lifestyle for their horses
> angers you enough to want to attack in general and lose civility in
> discussing issues.
No, stupidity of the strassernatics that can hurt a horse makes me
mad. You have a lifestyle, not the horse.
There is a point of view expressed at the
> following site about negative attitudes that owners of barefoot horses
> face http://www.gilfach-wen.co.uk/barefoot_transition.html
Not interested in their views. Stupid is as stupid does. You and
Scribbles must have been separated at birth. You both seem to think
that repeating the same phrase turns BS into gospel.
Susan Ravan
Copper
wrote:
>No, stupidity of the strassernatics that can hurt a horse makes me
>mad. You have a lifestyle, not the horse.
>Scribbles must have been separated at birth. You both seem to think
>that repeating the same phrase turns BS into gospel.
>Susan Ravan
"Anger is a wind which blows out the lamp of the mind." - Robert G.
Ingersoll
Bill Kambic
> "Anger is a wind which blows out the lamp of the mind." - Robert G.
> Ingersoll
"Intelligence has limits; stupidity has none." Napoleon
Bill Kambic, Haras Lucero, Kingston, TN
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/1816
Mangalarga Marchador: Style, Stamina, Symmetry, & Smoothness
P.S. Which one of the multiple personalities is REALLY posting?
Tom Stovall
re: "With all due respect to Dr. Cook, who was one of my teachers, his
area of expertise was ear, nose, and throat..." CMN,DVM
>What does that mean? Are you saying that veterinarians do not have a
>working knowledge of different parts of a horse's body? Are you saying
>that veterinarians are incapable of learning? An excerpt from his
>letter follows...
[deletia]
What it means is that veterinarians have varying degrees of knowledge
about horses' feet. Equine practitioners specializing in other areas,
such as Dr. Cook, can display as much ignorance as a babbling
strasserite when it comes to a horse's foot. Why not ask Dr. Steve
O'Grady what he thinks about Strasser's foolishness? How about Bill
Moyers, Bill McMullin, Mike Heitmann, or Jim Meyer? Want to guess what
all these gentlemen have in common?
When it all shakes out, no rational person would advocate keeping a
horse barefoot and in pain when the horse can be made pain free by
applying shoes. Despite your claims to the contrary, that's exactly
what Hilturd Strasser and her cult advise when they idiotically claim
that no horse NEEDS shoeing.
Cooper/Scribbles, the offer is still on the table! I'll furnish a shod
horse that's been diagnosed with navicular syndrome that will walk up
sound. All you, or anyone of your choosing, need do to break me and
mine and silence a vocal critic, is to pull the shoes, trim the horse,
and cause the horse walk off barefooted as sound as he walked up.
Do you realize how foolish you appear when you refuse to put the
efficacy of your barefoot-is-best nonsense to an objective test after
being repeatedly challenged? You can post URLs leading to anecdotal,
smarmy, barefoot websites 'til the world looks level, but all the
bullshit contained on those websites will never have the impact on folks
as does your eloquent refusal to put the efficacy of your barefoot
claims to a public test.
--
Tom Stovall, CJF
Farrier & Blacksmith
sto...@wt.net
http://www.katyforge.com
Copper
wrote:
>
>Cooper/Scribbles, the offer is still on the table! I'll furnish a shod
>horse that's been diagnosed with navicular syndrome that will walk up
>sound. All you, or anyone of your choosing, need do to break me and
>mine and silence a vocal critic, is to pull the shoes, trim the horse,
>and cause the horse walk off barefooted as sound as he walked up.
>
>Do you realize how foolish you appear when you refuse to put the
>efficacy of your barefoot-is-best nonsense to an objective test after
>being repeatedly challenged? You can post URLs leading to anecdotal,
>smarmy, barefoot websites 'til the world looks level, but all the
>bullshit contained on those websites will never have the impact on folks
>as does your eloquent refusal to put the efficacy of your barefoot
>claims to a public test.
I don't know what the heck you're talking about! How would I, a lay
person who trims five barefoot horses, deal with a navicular horse?
My horses don't have any pathology other than one has had flat soles.
If you read my postings, you would know that I have said that I would
put shoes on my horses if they needed them. When we are on gravel and
rocky territory two of them wear Old Mac Boots on the front. Yes I do
support certain aspects of what Dr. Strasser teaches as I support
certain aspects of many other different theories of what best
constitutes good hoof care. I am very interested in all the latest
literature on hoof care. Go back and look at what I've written.
Tom Stovall
>>Cooper/scribbles, the offer is still on the table! I'll furnish a
>>shod horse that's been diagnosed with navicular syndrome that will
>>walk up sound. All you, or anyone of your choosing, need do to break
>>me and mine and silence a vocal critic, is to pull the shoes, trim the
>>horse, and cause the horse walk off barefooted as sound as he walked
>>up.
>>Do you realize how foolish you appear when you refuse to put the
>>efficacy of your barefoot-is-best nonsense to an objective test after
>>being repeatedly challenged? You can post URLs leading to anecdotal,
>>smarmy, barefoot websites 'til the world looks level, but all the
>>bullshit contained on those websites will never have the impact on >>folks as does your eloquent refusal to put the efficacy of your
>>barefoot claims to a public test.
>I don't know what the heck you're talking about!...
Are you stating unequivocally that the person(s) posting anonymously as
"cooper" is a different entity than the person(s) posting anonymously as
"scribbles"? I don't know anything about ferreting out the origin of
Usenet posts by reading the headers, but there doesn't appear to be much
difference in the headers of posts originating from either "cooper" or
"scribbles."
>How would I, a lay person who trims five barefoot horses, deal with a
>navicular horse?...
Bingo! Assuming a shod, asymptomatic horse diagnosed with navicular
syndrome, there is absolutely no form of barefoot trim - no matter how
trendy, well publicized, or by whom done or endorsed - that can possibly
be as effective in palliating the symptoms of navicular syndrome as
correctly applied shoes.
>My horses don't have any pathology other than one has had flat soles.
>If you read my postings, you would know that I have said that I would
>put shoes on my horses if they needed them. When we are on gravel and
>rocky territory two of them wear Old Mac Boots on the front.
You admit you have no meaningful experience with horses, yet you advise
folks to seek out those venues advocating "barefootedness" without
regard for the needs of the horse? Shame on you.
>Yes I do support certain aspects of what Dr. Strasser teaches as I
>support certain aspects of many other different theories of what best
>constitutes good hoof care...
Claiming to support "certain aspects" of Strasser's theories that are
unique to her cult is analogous to claiming to be a "little bit
pregnant." Are you unaware that when it comes to trimming a horse's
foot, the only factors that separate her protocols from those of
conventional farriery can have a deleterious effect on her victims. All
horses are not created equal; one size does not fit all.
>I am very interested in all the latest literature on hoof care...
As has been posted many times on this forum, anecdotes are not data.
The relevant literature is found in veterinary texts, farrier texts, and
scientific journals - not on disneyesque websites filled with sweetness
and light anecdotes recounting the alleged benefits of "barefootedness."
>Go back and look at what I've written...
Given your anonymity, how could anyone know who you are or that you've
written anything?
Bethe57
>It seems that this ng. has many people who try to push their own agendas
>to the point of selectively interpreting what has actually been written.
Pot, kettle, black...............
Bethe Blasienz
Bryan, Texas
Thomas Bloomer
>"Copper" <Cop...@nothere.invalid> wrote in message
>>In contrast to what you have quoted from Rooney below. Here is an excerpt
>>from "Basic Mechanics of the Hoof and Horseshoe," by James Rooney, D.V.M.
>>
>>This misinterpretation has led to some bizarre
>>shoeing systems that demonstrate how wonderfully adaptable the horse is to
>>even the most misguided human interference."
>That's why the barefoot movement exists!! We want horses to live
>without the iron shoes that distort their feet. I totally agree with
>Dr. Rooney.
Then why did you snip out the part that talks about horseshoeing "systems"
said to be based on the study of feral horse feet? Is it because that
statement did not fit with your philosophy? Since ALL of the barefoot
movement is based upon the study of feral horse feet, how can you agree with
Rooney? Natural Balance shoeing and Cytek shoeing are both shoeing systems
that claim to be based on the study of feral horse feet. Like the "all
horses should be kept barefoot" one size fits all philosophy, these shoeing
systems have arisen from the same background - the study of wild horses in
their natural environment.
A problem occurs when someone tries to apply a solution based on a small
group of horses to all horses in all circumstances. First of all, as Rooney
points out, the biomechanics that are used to justify the methods are
flawed. Every foot on every horse is different. To approach all feet with
the same formula is just plain blind stupidity.
I started my study of farrier science by reviewing everything I could find
on "natural barefoot" hoofcare. It was not until I started studying the
feet of individual horses in varied environments that I began to understand
what it is that horses need to do their jobs. After I had dissected a few
dozen dead feet and studied hoof and leg anatomy under the guidance of a
talented teacher, I realized that there are serious differences that
predispose certain kinds of hoof/leg confirmations to certain biomechanical
stresses and growth patterns that do not exist in the feral horse. Any
attempt to apply any trim recipe to all horses is an exercise in ignorance.
The "natural barefoot movement" is misleading, dishonest, unscientific. and
above all dangerous because its founders are capitalizing on the tendency of
the "political correctness" crowd to blindly accept any philosophy with
"natural" in the title. It all seems so simple and easy to understand.
Just follow a few "natural guidelines" and all horses can be kept sound.
But it ain't that simple or easy.
I work on Percherons, Standardbreads, Arabians, Mustangs, Belgians, Paints,
Quarterhorses, Thoroughbreds, Halflingers, Saddlebreds, Welsh Ponies, Minis,
Donkeys, Mules, Morgans, and a lot of mixtures. Each foot on each horse has
different needs. What I do to a particular hoof on a particular horse in
the way of trimming and possibly shoeing is determined by what the animal
needs to do its job efficiently and soundly. Before I ever pick up a foot,
I am devising a plan for each foot based on:
1. The confirmation of each leg and how it ties in with the overall
confirmation of the horse.
2. Hoof wall distortions and growth patterns.
3. Locomotion, stride, general movement, and specific movement at different
gaits.
4. Living conditions provided for the horse.
5. Health and body condition of the animal.
6. The job requirements and daily routine for the horse.
7. How long it will be before I work on the horse again and what the
condition of the feet will be at the end of the trimming/shoeing cycle.
8. Any lameness issues that require special consideration over and above the
items above.
After picking up and cleaning each hoof I can learn:
1. Hoof horn quality.
2. Sole condition.
3. Frog condition.
4. Rate of growth.
5. Wear and growth patterns that affect static and dynamic balance.
If the horse will be kept barefoot the above information will help me
decide:
1. How much to radius the hoof wall.
2. How much sole, wall, and frog to take off if any.
3. Whether or not to relieve the quarters.
4. Whether or not to roll or rocker the toe.
5. How much of the stratum externum to remove to dress flares.
6. The best angle A/P and M/L for the ground surface of the hoof wall.
7. Any sculpting of the hoof capsule required to direct future growth in a
more healthy direction.
Sometimes the end result looks exactly like a "natural balance" trim.
Sometimes (rarely) the end result looks like a "High Performance Trim
(HPT)." Sometimes the end result looks exactly like the hoof did before I
picked it up with nothing more than a few rough edges knocked off. There is
even one tamed mustang that I trim, that winds up with feet that look like
the feet on a wild mustang living naturally in an abrasive environment . . .
go figure! The only thing for certain is that there is nothing "natural"
about the analytical process that I apply to trimming or shoeing a horse.
Maybe I wound up rejecting the "natural hoofcare" philosophy because of my
previous background. I used to be a Systems Analyst in the field of
Information Technology. Because of that background, I have acquired the
habit of solving problems by gathering and evaluating all available
information and determining the facts that are relevant to a decision as to
how to proceed with a solution. It is a very detached and unemotional
process, devoid of any politically correct notion.
I find more value in the "Systems Development Life Cycle" methodology as
applied to hoof care than I do in the "natural touchy feel-good"
methodology. I provide "designer hoofcare" not "natural hoofcare."
Maybe some day they will come up with a 12 step program for rehabilitating
the victims of "natural hoofcare."
--
Tom Bloomer
Professional Farrier
Hartly, DE
Thomas Bloomer
>Do you have a documented study backing up your statement or is it idle
>speculation?
Do I have to cite a document to prove that horses inherit their confirmation
from their ancestors? Do I need to do scientific research to figure out
that breeding two horses with crooked legs will very likely produce
offspring with crooked legs? Is there anything beyond common sense required
to demonstrate that a 1300lb Quarterhorse horse with a tiny coffin bone that
grows feet the size a credit card has inherited this trait as a result of
his "selective breeding?"
Horses with poor hoof and leg confirmation do not survive in feral herds.
No one has ever produced a study of wild horses with bad feet, because they
do not exist long enough to be studied. Horse management and living
conditions do not cause horses to be born with confirmation that predisposes
them to biomechanical inadequacy. Good footed horses do remarkably well
even when neglected and abused, in captivity or in the wild. The only way
to keep a bad footed horse sound, is to provide the best hoofcare and living
environment which results in maintaining soundness for the particular horse.
If a horses confirmation and hoof structures are incapable of surviving in
the environment imposed on them, the hoofcare part of the "environment" can
be improved with shoes. If you want a document to back up that statement,
just go read a horseshoeing text book.
--
Tom Bloomer
Hartly, DE
Thomas Bloomer
>attribute and reply to messages. Your top posting is some instances
>using the "-- " delimiter above your signature causes a properly setup
>news reader to eliminate everything below the "-- ".
Thank you for bringing this to my attention. My news reader is Microsoft
Outlook Express. It automatically puts the "--" above my signature. I am
using plain text format for posting. If you are aware of a way to configure
the program to NOT put "--" above my signature, please tell me. It does not
put those characters in my plain text email messages even though they use
the same signature.
TB
Copper
wrote:
>>I don't know what the heck you're talking about!...
>
>Are you stating unequivocally that the person(s) posting anonymously as
>"cooper" is a different entity than the person(s) posting anonymously as
>"scribbles"?
Unequivocally, I am not the same person as Scribbles.
>>How would I, a lay person who trims five barefoot horses, deal with a
>>navicular horse?...
>
>Bingo! Assuming a shod, asymptomatic horse diagnosed with navicular
>syndrome, there is absolutely no form of barefoot trim - no matter how
>trendy, well publicized, or by whom done or endorsed - that can possibly
>be as effective in palliating the symptoms of navicular syndrome as
>correctly applied shoes.
I can't comment on horses with pathological conditions. My horses are
sound.
>>My horses don't have any pathology other than one has had flat soles.
>>If you read my postings, you would know that I have said that I would
>>put shoes on my horses if they needed them. When we are on gravel and
>>rocky territory two of them wear Old Mac Boots on the front.
>
>You admit you have no meaningful experience with horses, yet you advise
>folks to seek out those venues advocating "barefootedness" without
>regard for the needs of the horse? Shame on you.
No, I don't admit that I have no meaningful experience with horses. I
have many years of experience with horses. Never have said that I
advocate barefootedness without regard for the needs of horses. I
believe every horse is different and has different needs. I have
never disagreed that some horses may require shoeing. I have a large
network of barefoot horse owners around me who include farriers and
veterinarians. I respect and value their experiences and knowledge.
>>Yes I do support certain aspects of what Dr. Strasser teaches as I
>>support certain aspects of many other different theories of what best
>>constitutes good hoof care...
>
>Claiming to support "certain aspects" of Strasser's theories that are
>unique to her cult is analogous to claiming to be a "little bit
>pregnant." Are you unaware that when it comes to trimming a horse's
>foot, the only factors that separate her protocols from those of
>conventional farriery can have a deleterious effect on her victims. All
>horses are not created equal; one size does not fit all.
Good grief what a foolish statement! People learn on a continuum. I
would be a brain washed fanatic if I believed and followed the beliefs
of any one person or school of thought. I strongly believe that many
individuals have good information to share and we pick and choose what
is appropriate for ourselves and our horses.
Have you ever attended a Strasser Clinic? Or are your statements
about her based on rumor? I have met her and have attended a clinic.
I have read some venomous statements about her on this ng, but I
haven't ever read that anyone who posts here has actually gone to
listen to and observe first hand what she teaches. I have admiration
for the vets and farriers that I know who have actually attended her
clinics and then offer comment based on facts.
>>I am very interested in all the latest literature on hoof care...
>
>As has been posted many times on this forum, anecdotes are not data.
>The relevant literature is found in veterinary texts, farrier texts, and
>scientific journals - not on disneyesque websites filled with sweetness
>and light anecdotes recounting the alleged benefits of "barefootedness."
>
>>Go back and look at what I've written...
>
>Given your anonymity, how could anyone know who you are or that you've
>written anything?
I choose to be anonymous on this group because of the venom filled
hatred that is voiced toward certain individuals when they post. I
had hoped that rec.equestrian would be a group of horses owners who
exchange ideas in a respectful helpful manner. Doesn't seem to be the
case. I hope the war ends swiftly and your American troops come home
safely and soon! Best regards, Clara Riley B.C., Canada
"The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read
and write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn."
Alvin Toffler
Bill Kambic
>
> Your statement is self evident and does not answer the question. The
> question was: "Do you have a documented study proving that the cause of
> most bad hooves is DNA)" It could be that 10% of bad hooves are due to
> genes but 90% of bad hooves are due to bad husbandry and bad farrier
> practices.
If we have already eliminated poor husbandry and poor farrier work then what
is left? Genetic or, possibly, a disease process.
I doesn't take a university level study to figure this out.
Tom Stovall
>>Are you stating unequivocally that the person(s) posting anonymously >>as "cooper" is a different entity than the person(s) posting
>>anonymously as "scribbles"?...
>Unequivocally, I am not the same person as Scribbles.
Fair enough.
>>>How would I, a lay person who trims five barefoot horses, deal with a
>>>navicular horse?...
>>Bingo! Assuming a shod, asymptomatic horse diagnosed with navicular
>>syndrome, there is absolutely no form of barefoot trim - no matter how
>>trendy, well publicized, or by whom done or endorsed - that can >>possibly be as effective in palliating the symptoms of navicular
>>syndrome as correctly applied shoes...
>I can't comment on horses with pathological conditions. My horses are
>sound...
While your horses may be sound, you advised other folks to seek out
those sites advocating "barefootedness" without knowing whether or not
their horses had any issues requiring shoes. By taking your advice,
someone who knows even less than you do might end up thinking Strasser's
nonsense was a viable alternative to veterinary farriery.
>>>My horses don't have any pathology other than one has had flat soles.
>>>If you read my postings, you would know that I have said that I would
>>>put shoes on my horses if they needed them. When we are on gravel >>>and rocky territory two of them wear Old Mac Boots on the front.
>>You admit you have no meaningful experience with horses, yet you >>advise folks to seek out those venues advocating "barefootedness"
>>without regard for the needs of the horse? Shame on you.
>No, I don't admit that I have no meaningful experience with horses. I
>have many years of experience with horses...
Years don't count, numbers do. I once bought a nice medallion Hamley
committee saddle from a fellow up in the Dakotas who said he'd been
riding broncs for two years - and bucked off both times. "Meaningful
experience" is numbered in the tens of thousands.
>Never have said that I advocate barefootedness without regard for the
>needs of horses...
You posted the URLs to websites that advocate "barefootedness" without
regard for the needs of horses.
>I believe every horse is different and has different needs. I have
>never disagreed that some horses may require shoeing. I have a large
>network of barefoot horse owners around me who include farriers and
>veterinarians. I respect and value their experiences and knowledge...
If so, you might want to think about sending folks to those sites
frequented by equine professionals, not folks who maintain that being
barefooted is somehow "better" than being shod under all circumstances.
>>>Yes I do support certain aspects of what Dr. Strasser teaches as I
>>>support certain aspects of many other different theories of what best
>>>constitutes good hoof care...
>>Claiming to support "certain aspects" of Strasser's theories that are
>>unique to her cult is analogous to claiming to be a "little bit
>>pregnant." Are you unaware that when it comes to trimming a horse's
>>foot, the only factors that separate her protocols from those of
>>conventional farriery can have a deleterious effect on her victims. >>All horses are not created equal; one size does not fit all...
>Good grief what a foolish statement!...
What part was beyond your comprehension? Other than a short toe, her
model is demonstrably inefficient and possibly harmful to some horses.
Short levers work; nailing a long and low to the ground by whacking off
the heel as she advocates is sheer idiocy. Read the literature!
>People learn on a continuum. I would be a brain washed fanatic if I
>believed and followed the beliefs of any one person or school of
>thought...
Oh? Do you really think there's more than one set of rules governing
the behavior of levers?
>I strongly believe that many individuals have good information to share
>and we pick and choose what is appropriate for ourselves and our
>horses...
When it comes to horses' feet, you don't know enough about the subject
to be able to separate the wheat from the chaff.
>Have you ever attended a Strasser Clinic? Or are your statements
>about her based on rumor? I have met her and have attended a clinic.
>I have read some venomous statements about her on this ng, but I
>haven't ever read that anyone who posts here has actually gone to
>listen to and observe first hand what she teaches...
The basic tenets of the mechanical aspects of the strasserite protocols
are posted on her website. It's not necessary to attend one of her
"clinics" in order to understand the flaws inherent to her hypothesis;
neither must one attend a seance in order to understand that her
hypothesis has NEVER been submitted to testing, publication and peer
review. Strasser is selling franchises and running a cult, nothing
more.
>I have admiration for the vets and farriers that I know who have
>actually attended her clinics and then offer comment based on facts...
If so, what don't you understand about the idiocy intrinsic to
advocating a one-size-fits-all protocol?
>>>I am very interested in all the latest literature on hoof care...
>>As has been posted many times on this forum, anecdotes are not data.
>>The relevant literature is found in veterinary texts, farrier texts, >>and scientific journals - not on disneyesque websites filled with
>>sweetness and light anecdotes recounting the alleged benefits of
>>"barefootedness."
[...]
>I choose to be anonymous on this group because of the venom filled
>hatred that is voiced toward certain individuals when they post. I
>had hoped that rec.equestrian would be a group of horses owners who
>exchange ideas in a respectful helpful manner. Doesn't seem to be the
>case.
Your expectations are a matter of personal concern and the validity of
information is not related either to its presentation or anyone's desire
for respect. "Respect," relative to a knowledge of horses, is an earned
commodity, not freely given.
>I hope the war ends swiftly and your American troops come home
>safely and soon!...
On this, we can certainly agree.
Thomas Bloomer
what
>is left? Genetic or, possibly, a disease process.
>I doesn't take a university level study to figure this out.
Thank you for so eloquently reinforcing my point.
Beverly Wheeler
"Thomas Bloomer" <bloomer(AT)snip.net> wrote in message
news:3e7f...@snipnews.snip.net...
> >>Since the cause of most bad hooves is DNA, ...
Thomas, may I jump in and ask a question? I went to the site given for
Dr. Bowker's trim to take a look/see and I wondered if you agreed with
what it said about not trimming the frog. If you remember, my new
farrier had cut a little too much and drew blood on my mare. Should the
frog be trimmed or not? I am not entering the debate on whether a horse
should be shod or not. Interesting discussion though. My horses are
barefoot through the winter and the one that needs shoes to be ridden
gets them in the spring. Beverly
Tom Stovall
re: "Bad hooves"
>Neither you nor Bill Kambic have proved your assertion "Since the
>cause of most bad hooves is DNA, ..." You must have a study at hand
>that states x% of bad hooves are due to genetics, y% of bad hooves are
>due to poor farrier work and z% due to other causes...
No study is necessary to confirm that before an injury, pathology, or
environment can affect a horses' foot, one must first consider the
genetic component.
If "bad hooves" are defined as "less than optimally efficient," then the
vast majority of all Quarter-type horses have "bad hooves" because a
characteristic of the type is small feet relative to body size. Any
veterinary text will confirm that a small foot relative to body size is
demonstrably LESS efficient in the conversion of muscle energy to
movement or the dispersal of shock when compared to a larger foot.
When one considers registered horses in the United States, Quarter
Horses are by far the largest breed registry and QH types (Paint, ApHC,
grade, etc.) comprise the largest group of horses; QED: the cause of
MOST "bad hooves" is DNA.
Another example of "bad hooves" which can be attributed to DNA is found
in the neonatal horn of sucklings. In my experience, it has become
increasingly common for Arabians, TBs, ASBs, dumbloods, and QH with a
large percentage of TB blood to exhibit "one up, one down" syndrome
while still on their dams.
With the exception of the latter paragraph, which is based on personal
observation and private communication with farriers and equine
practitioners, a visit to any veterinary college library will confirm
this information.
By the way, the offer's still on the table, but you've been strangely
reticent: Cat got your tongue? Or, are you thinking up some new and
exciting excuses for your pathetic inability to demonstrate the efficacy
of your strasserite claims.