Adventures in Aussie Tack
Eileen Morgan
schooling session today. :-)
We were supposed to work her last night and today, but we got there late
and Tony had a bunch going on so we just put it off til this morning. So
I get out there, Carl drops me and goes for errands, and Tony tells me
that Rain bucked him off the day before. <rolls eyes> Now THAT is what I
want to hear before I get on, LOL.
Long story short, it was a combination of things that lit her off--horse
in small turnout who has not been out in some time who was doing bronco
bucking stuff for fun, a flying and bouncing on the driveway plastic
pitchfork, yada yada. Anyhow, Tony said the bucking was serious and
major explosive, nothing she has hinted at in any of the work in the 4
1/2 weeks she's been under saddle daily with him. He took her to the
round pen for some remedial work, put on a flank strap, and let her
figure out all the bucking in the world wasn't going to help. Then he
got back on and took her back to The Scene of the Crime and set her up
to flip again, which she didn't do.
So that was yesterday. :-)
Tony asked if I wanted to use his Aussie saddle, since it is a more
secure seat. I said sure, why not. Any advantage sounds good to me.
Tacked her up, climbed on, and went out to do some ring work. She was
sweet and pleasant in her flat work, walk trot canter, schooling
figures, etc. Then Tony brought out a couple of tires and some tarps
plus the whip with the bag on it. We started with a little gauntlet down
the side with a tarp hanging on jump standards, one on the ground, the
whip on the ground, and the tires sort of at the end of the long side. I
came up past the tires, which just took some leg and keeping her head
down and neck flexible. The tarp monsters were tougher--the goal is to
keep her feet moving, don't let her go up, don't let her bolt off
bucking, and make her listen to me rather than react to the monsters,
which were crinkly and moving slightly with the light breeze. We inched
and ooched, then got our forward engaged with an explosive rush. I felt
that loin coiling that comes right before a good buck and managed to get
her going to the left and spun her out of her buck and into a small
circle, then sent her forward out of it. Man, the hardest part is the
release once you think you are past the worst bit of it.
So this is what we did for the next maybe 20 minutes--Tony would change
the position of the tarps, I'd ride her past them one way or the other
or circle or weave through them. We had a lot of explosive moments but
she kept her feet on the ground, although there were a number of repeats
of that whole 'she goes to explode and Eileen gets her bending around a
small circle and then sends her forward out of it." A couple times she
did that scary freeze and tense thing, and I'd be trying to get her feet
moving without causing an explosion from too much pressure from me--but
the worst behavior always comes from a stuck horse unsticking, so that
worries me the most. Bend and send, you have to do that with a moving horse.
Of course, other folks with horses in for training and the people who
work and board there were a happy little peanut gallery. The PG was
offering suggestions for other scary stuff Tony could toss in the ring
and I asked if anyone would like to get on and show me how it's done.
:-) We did not need it any harder for either of us!!!
So. Tony felt like her session with the bucking strap had helped close
down that option for her, although like me he felt there were some times
there where had my timing been less good, and my nerves less steely, we
would have had a bucking spree. So we decided that while I *can* ride
her, and I would most likely be fine bringing her home, since this huge
explosion was so recent and Tony has not had a chance to really be sure
he had worked that tool out of her kit, we will leave her there another
week so he can do more set up spook work with her.
He was very sweet, giving me kudos and compliments for sticking through
all the behavior Ms.Rain was dishing out. He said 'a lotta folks would
have been done being on that horse.' If we just had her in the ring with
nothing extra scary out there, she'd never have set a hoof wrong. But,
with the monster pressure up she showed us that she's still not 100%
sure the rider is the leader who will keep her safe, so Tony's going to
press on with that one.
So there's my weekend! I am off to mow some pasture . . .
Eileen Morgan
The Mare's Nest
http://www.themaresnest.com
Dr Corinne B Leek
wrote:
>SO, I'm typing, which means I survived our "spook Rain on purpose"
>schooling session today. :-)
Whew!
I'd have been a wreck!
Kudos, indeed.
Good for you.
Sounds like leaving her with Tony the extra week is the best idea, as
was sending her there in the first place.
Smart Ei. :-)
Corinne & Crazy Canuck Crew...
--
*** Conserve Energy: Laughter is easier than Anger!
*** cl...@ns.sympatico.ca
Eileen Morgan
> On Sun, 05 Oct 2008 04:09:49 -0400, Eileen Morgan <eg...@ptd.net>
> wrote:
>
>> SO, I'm typing, which means I survived our "spook Rain on purpose"
>> schooling session today. :-)
> Whew!
> I'd have been a wreck!
> Kudos, indeed.
> Good for you.
Well, I would have quit and handed her over to Tony if I felt like I
just was not going to be able to control her safely enough! Carl came
back during The Gauntlet and walked over with his camera and I said 'no
photos.' I had visions of a lovely series of me flying through the air,
LOL. That said, overall I felt pretty secure in the tack and I knew the
blow outs were coming and where, so I felt pretty good that I could work
through it. More than once I put both hands on the left rein to bring
her around when I wasn't strong enough with just my left arm. He was
like 'try not to throw away the right side because she'll see that as a
victory, but good job getting her turned and moving through the spook'.
I'm thinking even if she has a partial win, if I stay on and we work
through the monster zone, I'll call it a draw and be glad of it. I told
Tony I was a little timid about pushing sometimes because I was
concerned about provoking what I was trying to combat, and he gave me
some useful advice about the buttons he is putting on her.
> Sounds like leaving her with Tony the extra week is the best idea, as
> was sending her there in the first place.
> Smart Ei. :-)
It's a frustrating blend of hating to not just feel like I can do it
myself and being glad someone else is showing her the way, not me and my
hide. :-)
I appreciate that Tony is keeping her past the agreed upon time, because
he has a lot of horses in there for training this month and she is
making more work for him than he had planned, ya know? When I was
grooming her and we were discussing the session to come, he said 'I
don't want you to think I'm chasing her out of here--if you want me to
work through this a little more, that'd be fine. That was really new
behavior she pulled yesterday and I'm not sure she's done with it.' I
figured that was polite Tony-Speak for 'now I am worried about sending
her home with you, but this costs you a lot of money and I know you know
I have a lot on my plate right now.' I think he felt better after
watching me/coaching me through our schooling session (said I passed
with flying colors and had earned his respect, FWIW) but I could tell he
was relieved that I was leaving her with him longer. I'm not a sucky
rider, but I also am not going to be able to stick with a horse that
really wants me off, either. I'd rather avoid situations that Tony will
feel very confident about setting up and riding through--hence why I am
writing checks!
I think she has Carl scared about me bringing her home. :-( She's so
darn quick and athletic, and when she acts out she has a lot to draw on
physically. I said in a teasy sort of way when we were talking about her
athletic ability and how at some point that was going to work FOR me
instead of being a liability that at least if I decided we were never
going to mesh skill sets I could sell her to an upper level rider for
the big bucks. He said "well, you can keep Belles going for years, too,
while you wait for Dancer's baby to grow up."
The reference to Dancer's Potential 2009 foal is due to the quieter
nature of the stallion and a steadier, more submissive mare. My
suspicion is that this next foal will be a little steadier minded than
Rain, who has all of mama's drama, dad's power, and a lot more
willfullness than Moonlight. I doubt I will ever get something as solid
minded as Belles, but I don't need a carbon copy. And I do think that
Rain and I will go places together as she gets more steadied into work
and more experienced.
I also am resigned to the fact that Rain's going to toss me across the
field once in a while on the way to being my experienced, solid older
mare. I was hacking Moonlight on a loose rein bareback in my field
tonight thinking about the days when she would *freak* and go up,
sideways, and hurl herself about when asked to walk along my back fence
line where she could not see the barn. Or the trail ride I took with
Ruth and Patrick a few weeks after she joined me where she curled up and
jigged for an hour and a half of the ride. I am sure they thought I was
a ham fisted clutching monster. :-) I had Lite over a year before I
could relax and hack on a loose rein at all, much less in a spooky
situation. At least Rain is having a more confident start and won't be
9-10 yrs old when figuring this out!
Laurel Reddick
wrote:
>SO, I'm typing, which means I survived our "spook Rain on purpose"
>schooling session today. :-)
>Snip
Sounds pretty hair raising. But I do have a question about the
bucking strap training in the round pen. For years, I have listened
to the training theories of my colt starting friends in the Cariboo
and they work really hard on the concept of not letting the horse buck
while saddled. That includes ground work under saddle i.e. repeatedly
turning a horse in the round pen if it appears that it is going to
buck to prevent the buck. They don't want the horse to have any
concept of bucking while under saddle. I know that they go through
lengthy ground work training with the colts and they are very
attentive to when a horse gets humpy when being saddled, and they will
unsaddle and put it to work again in the round pen and work it hard
and then re-saddle again and again if necessary. Monika does much of
the ground work, and then Curtis will do the first few rides on the
colts as he rode bulls in the rodeo and has the ability to stick like
glue if needed. But I think they would be surprised at the use of a
bucking strap with a colt. I'll have to give them a call tonight and
pose the question. Just wondering about the rationale and thinking
that the concept might be a bit iffy? i.e. patterning behaviour. Since
you are a pro, what's your take?
Just heard from them yesterday and they had strangers knocking at the
door at 9 PM the night before saying that there were some horses and
riders up by the river who were too tired to ride any further as they
had spent 6 hours trying to get a cow out of the swamp. Monika and
Curtis hit the road with the horse trailer and hay going in the
direction of the reported incident. They found 2 exhausted riders,
horses and a 10 year old dog laying in an exhausted heap. They loaded
all and drove them an hour home, went back to the ranch and got two
ATV's and wenches, and spent until midnight pulling the cow out.
That's what neighbors do for one another up in the Cariboo. Monika's
parents are visiting from Switzerland and were quite amazed at how
people pitch in for strangers like that, but they were proud too.
Laurel
Eileen Morgan
> Just wondering about the rationale and thinking
> that the concept might be a bit iffy? i.e. patterning behaviour. Since
> you are a pro, what's your take?
Well, I am not a pro and I don't play on on TV, but this mare had just
decided to try out bucking with great success when she unloaded her
rider (he does work to prevent behavior, FWIW, but this was just one of
those Oh Shit things). So she is presenting the bucking, has won an
argument with it, and now thinks this is a great tool. The bucking strap
in the round pen encourages her to try bucking to get her release again,
but it does not come off. She gets no release for the hard bucking
behavior, and until she is civilized again, she gets pressured (but not
hurt) by the strap. So in her mind after this session, bucking does not
equal release--stopping that nonsense equals release.
Splash
I had a recent experience with a youngster with a buck on the brain,
LOL. He was pastured with my trail-riding buddy's horse and we
decided to take the two of them out for a ride but when I mounted
Tetley (he is four) I immediately remarked he has a lump the size of a
camel's in his back! I was ready with one hand on the saddle horn (I
have NO SHAME!) and the other in the air to keep his head up and turn
him on a circle. He tried and tried, four times before we left the
pasture but I had him in a circle with his head up before he could get
any air.
My poor english riding TB owner was panicked and wanted to quit but I
refused. Getting off the little bugger then would have meant he won!
I promised her if we left the pasture and he didn't straighten out I'd
dismount.
I never did let on to her how long he minced his steps with his butt
cheeks clenched, LOL. She would have been a wreck! But eventually
his back smoothed out and his walk started to swing.
I'm glad for his sake I never quit.
Can't say I'd ever want to spend lots of time on his back. He's an
ass IMHO that needs a lot of work.
Thank goodness Sox was never a bucker. Still I'd prefer to be thrown
clear by a bucker than have a rearer topple over on me. Thankfully
Sox is neither!
I think it's a wise decision to let the trainer iron this issue out.
There are folks who are good at "sticking" a buck. I'm kind of at the
mind that if the horse can't unseat you he'll quit trying sooner
rather than later. Still, I'd prefer it was someone else. In my
dotage I'd rather not break bones.
Splash
J. Z. M.
> For years, I have listened
> to the training theories of my colt starting friends in the Cariboo
> and they work really hard on the concept of not letting the horse buck
> while saddled. That includes ground work under saddle i.e. repeatedly
> turning a horse in the round pen if it appears that it is going to
> buck to prevent the buck. They don't want the horse to have any
> concept of bucking while under saddle.
That is my theory on youngsters. They should not ***THINK** about being a
bouncing, bundling bunch of bucking joy with a rider on them. When one has
started to buck with a rider, a snarl usually has them back on track.
Marcker started bucking into canters two years back, and I stayed on, but I
ripped into him with the lunge line. ---- means I get off and lunge his ass
till he thinks twice about how hard work can be. (Michel told me a horse has
to think at least once in his life that work will kill him with heavy
breathing.)
I also lunge them in and out of the canter for along time before I ask for
it under saddle. I discourage lunge act up tactics. Which brings me to
another pet peave, I hate to see horses acting much as idiots on lunge
lines. WTF? Where is the rider discouraging this sort of behavior? Standing
there ho-humming while the horse bucks, farts, and tears around. NO. This is
not acceptable behavior. Snarling, and reprimanding them, bringing them
under control on the ground makes your life easier, the horse learns
behavior that is desirable, and does not **think** about unruly behavior as
the norm. Hey, as usual! YYMMV! :)
Jody
Laurel Reddick
wrote:
>Laurel Reddick wrote:
I understand what you are saying, but I remain skeptical about the
concept of the horse understanding release as being related to the
bucking strap. I fear the horse will associate release with the
removal of the saddle and may present problems with ever being able to
use a rear cinch and tighten it to the point where it is useful and
safe. It just goes contrary to everything I have ever heard, read or
experienced personally concerning bucking and colt training. I have
only seen round pen training with newly started colts done with
absolute control of the horse's movement i.e. keep him busy turning
and rating his speed to prevent bucking. I guess time will tell if
his method is a good one. Thanks for the response.
Laurel
Eileen Morgan
> I understand what you are saying, but I remain skeptical about the
> concept of the horse understanding release as being related to the
> bucking strap. I fear the horse will associate release with the
> removal of the saddle and may present problems with ever being able to
> use a rear cinch and tighten it to the point where it is useful and
> safe.
The saddle was NOT removed. After the remedial round pen work he got
back on and rode her more.
>It just goes contrary to everything I have ever heard, read or
> experienced personally concerning bucking and colt training. I have
> only seen round pen training with newly started colts done with
> absolute control of the horse's movement i.e. keep him busy turning
> and rating his speed to prevent bucking. I guess time will tell if
> his method is a good one.
Whelp, I trust him a lot, otherwise Rain would not be there. He's fixed
some horses with major dangerous behavior for people I know, and he's
fair and kind in all his equine dealings that I have witnessed. Rain is
not an easy horse\. Michelle said Rain was one of the most challenging
horses she had ever worked with, and she has surprised Tony some and
he's been at this a good long time specializing in dangerous rehab and
dead green starting. Most horses he gets for 30 days of training, and he
pretty much gets on day one and rides every day from there forward, with
varying amounts of time in the round pen before they are out and going.
I've watched him on a variety of personality types since we brought Rain
down to him, and I feel very confident with his approaches.
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
<lre...@nowhere.invalid> wrote:
snip
>I understand what you are saying, but I remain skeptical about the
>concept of the horse understanding release as being related to the
>bucking strap. I fear the horse will associate release with the
>removal of the saddle and may present problems with ever being able to
>use a rear cinch and tighten it to the point where it is useful and
>safe. It just goes contrary to everything I have ever heard, read or
>experienced personally concerning bucking and colt training. I have
>only seen round pen training with newly started colts done with
>absolute control of the horse's movement i.e. keep him busy turning
>and rating his speed to prevent bucking. I guess time will tell if
>his method is a good one. Thanks for the response.
While I've not heard of the bucking strap piece, I have heard of the
setting a bucky horse up to try the behavior with a skilled rider who
can ride through the storm. You're not likely to hear much about
this, though, because damn few colt starters can sit through that
level of explosiveness. That's why preventativeness is such a big
mantra. However, if you get one inclined to buck, it helps to be able
to sit through it.
Not every horse is a bucker, but of the ones who are, or who come from
buck-happy bloodlines (like some of the Hancocks), letting the horse
know that they can't win a bucking fight is crucial. It's more of an
old-timey way of doing things than what is current, but yeah, the
concept can exist and has existed. My old QH mare I had as a kid was
one of those, with a wicked sunfishing buck. I was thoroughly
indoctrinated that under no circumstances was I allowed to let myself
get tossed off of her, as she would figure out that she could get rid
of me. We worked through it, and she settled down as she aged.
Mocha's not a bucker by nature, but she tossed the guy riding her to
get her started, and she's a strong and powerful (though not very
creative) bucker when she does do it.
jrw
Brian Whatcott
<lre...@nowhere.invalid> wrote:
>... I remain skeptical about the
>concept of the horse understanding release as being related to the
>bucking strap. I fear the horse will associate release with the
>removal of the saddle and may present problems with ever being able to
>use a rear cinch and tighten it to the point where it is useful and
>safe. ...
>Laurel
I remember asking two or three folks who break colts for a living
about the bucking issue. The uniform response was to the effect
that they do whatever it takes to avoid any bucking at all.
I asked around after I had been unseated on a first ride.
After that, I got considerably smarter about the transition from
tethered to free riding the green horse.
Brian W
Melanie
"Splash" <s_pi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:0fc3e89d-7323-4960...@l42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
Thank goodness Sox was never a bucker. Still I'd prefer to be thrown
clear by a bucker than have a rearer topple over on me. Thankfully
Sox is neither!
I think it's a wise decision to let the trainer iron this issue out.
There are folks who are good at "sticking" a buck. I'm kind of at the
mind that if the horse can't unseat you he'll quit trying sooner
rather than later. Still, I'd prefer it was someone else. In my
dotage I'd rather not break bones.
Splash
Bucking and rearing is where my trainer and I disagree. I have told her that
if Fire ever reared it would be the last time I ever rode him. She told me
rearing isn't all that bad and she's ridden a lot of them and horses only
topple over if their riders pull them over. Since I've seen a horse topple
on my sister and break her femur when she was 14 (maybe she did, maybe she
didn't cause it) and another flip over on my niece (that time I know she
didn't have contact because my sister was holding the beast so V could get
on and let go when she thought), I have no tolerance for it. She even jokes
about the times she can see he's thinking about it when she's pushed him a
bit too far and he's frustrated. Right now I'm going through a phase where
the change in weather has brought out his inner puke. For the past week just
about every ride has included some explosion at the application of the leg.
I know he's annoyed about the leg and I would prefer to start using Mr. Whip
on him squeeze, kick, spank style but my trainer hates whips so she has me
using my leg and kicking harder as he explodes in bucking and kicking. That
said, I have brought out the whip without her input and found it much easier
to bring him into line because the punishment doesn't involve *more* leg and
reward is still less leg. She'd be apalled but what she doesn't know about
won't hurt her (I know all you trainers out there are cringing at that
attitude ;-)) and I had to do something because her method just didn't seem
to be working.
Melanie who pines for the Princess
Princess Pony who is doing her best to get sent home
Blonde Ambition who thinks he shouldn't have to suffer humans if he doesn't
want to
JJ
baby. I'm just not metally built for it but *love* hearing all about Ms.
Rain! Glad it went well and you stayed in the saddle. JJ
Eileen Morgan
> While I've not heard of the bucking strap piece, I have heard of the
> setting a bucky horse up to try the behavior with a skilled rider who
> can ride through the storm. You're not likely to hear much about
> this, though, because damn few colt starters can sit through that
> level of explosiveness. That's why preventativeness is such a big
> mantra. However, if you get one inclined to buck, it helps to be able
> to sit through it.
> Mocha's not a bucker by nature, but she tossed the guy riding her to
> get her started, and she's a strong and powerful (though not very
> creative) bucker when she does do it.
I think this is how Rain and Belles both are--Belles did not buck her
first year under saddle but when she did oh wow. Flying Eileen. Once in
a while she'll toss a buck in, but they are small potatoes sort of
things and rare. I think Rain was overwhelmed and exploded, and like
when she was in driving training and had a meltdown, once she gets upset
she works herself up even more. However, once they get that first reward
for something they are going to try to do it again, so I am just as glad
that he set her up to try it and figure out that it was getting her
exactly nowhere. Had I let her go off in a straight line escaping the
monsters I am sure she would have bucked, BUT, had she really been set
on bucking I am sure I could not have averted her. If you can follow
that logic.
Eileen Morgan
The Mare's Nest (PA)
http://www.themaresnest.com
Emily Brooks
"Melanie" <womba...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:qamGk.20358$kn5....@newsfe12.iad...
>
>
> Bucking and rearing is where my trainer and I disagree. I have told her
> that if Fire ever reared it would be the last time I ever rode him. She
> told me rearing isn't all that bad and she's ridden a lot of them and
> horses only topple over if their riders pull them over. Since I've seen a
> horse topple on my sister and break her femur when she was 14 (maybe she
> did, maybe she didn't cause it) and another flip over on my niece (that
> time I know she didn't have contact because my sister was holding the
> beast so V could get on and let go when she thought), I have no tolerance
> for it. She even jokes about the times she can see he's thinking about it
> when she's pushed him a bit too far and he's frustrated. Right now I'm
> going through a phase where the change in weather has brought out his
> inner puke. For the past week just about every ride has included some
> explosion at the application of the leg. I know he's annoyed about the leg
> and I would prefer to start using Mr. Whip on him squeeze, kick, spank
> style but my trainer hates whips so she has me using my leg and kicking
> harder as he explodes in bucking and kicking. That said, I have brought
> out the whip without her input and found it much easier to bring him into
> line because the punishment doesn't involve *more* leg and reward is still
> less leg. She'd be apalled but what she doesn't know about won't hurt her
> (I know all you trainers out there are cringing at that attitude ;-)) and
> I had to do something because her method just didn't seem to be working.
>
> Melanie
Emily - not the first to say this
Emily Brooks
"J. Z. M." <clayri...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:C50EEE2D.493DB%clayri...@comcast.net...
>
> I also lunge them in and out of the canter for along time before I ask for
> it under saddle. I discourage lunge act up tactics. Which brings me to
> another pet peave, I hate to see horses acting much as idiots on lunge
> lines. WTF? Where is the rider discouraging this sort of behavior?
> Standing
> there ho-humming while the horse bucks, farts, and tears around. NO. This
> is
> not acceptable behavior. Snarling, and reprimanding them, bringing them
> under control on the ground makes your life easier, the horse learns
> behavior that is desirable, and does not **think** about unruly behavior
> as
> the norm. Hey, as usual! YYMMV! :)
>
> Jody
>
and work, horse!
Emily
JC Dill
> For the past week just about
> every ride has included some explosion at the application of the leg. I
> know he's annoyed about the leg and I would prefer to start using Mr.
> Whip on him squeeze, kick, spank style but my trainer hates whips so she
> has me using my leg and kicking harder as he explodes in bucking and
> kicking. That said, I have brought out the whip without her input and
> found it much easier to bring him into line because the punishment
> doesn't involve *more* leg and reward is still less leg. She'd be
> apalled but what she doesn't know about won't hurt her (I know all you
> trainers out there are cringing at that attitude ;-)) and I had to do
> something because her method just didn't seem to be working.
Why are you still working with this "trainer"? It's obvious this
trainer is not a good fit for your horse!
jc
JC Dill
At some facilities, the only chance a horse ever has to "play" is on the
lunge, due to lack of turn-out opportunities. In that case I feel it is
OK to let the horse play on the lunge. I believe that there should be a
tack change to indicate play time and work time - I never let a broke
horse "play" when tacked up. But if I have a horse at a facility with
limited turn-out and I need to let the horse get some bucks out before
riding I'll let it play on the lunge (sans saddle) for a few minutes.
Then I take it in, tack it up, and go back on the lunge and now I allow
NO bucking. This way the horse learns that once you have tack on, it's
work time. I feel this is a very useful distinction for a horse to learn.
This applies to broke horses. I'll let a young horse buck the first few
times it is saddled so the horse can learn that no amount of bucking is
going to get rid of the saddle, and that work will continue - bucking or
not. I want the horse to learn this lesson with an "empty" saddle and
have it firmly embedded in dobbin's brain, so that dobbin doesn't give
this a try with an occupied saddle and learn that bucking a rider off
can result in no more work!
Ei, I'd be giving some serious thought to leaving Rain with the Cowboy
for another month. Based on the events so far, I think she needs a lot
more work with someone who can safely prod her and "bend and go" to keep
her from exploding but also stick the bucks (if she bucks) so that if
she explodes again, she doesn't manage to get a rider off. Each time a
rider comes off (even if the rider isn't hurt and can remount right
away) she's learning that bucking can at least result in a short break
from work. This is a horrible habit to try to break, and that's if you
are lucky enough to not get hurt along the way. I know money is tight,
but another month of training would be much easier to afford than being
laid up and missing work (on disability instead of full pay), plus the
deductibles for hospital bills, etc.
Maybe ask Cowboy if he has any horses he'd like you to take home and
ride for a month, in partial trade? He might have something that just
needs more miles with a skilled rider (and you certainly qualify) that
you can leg-up for him, while he puts another month of boot camp on Rain.
If you simply can't afford more time with Cowboy at this point, perhaps
you should just let her have the winter off. She may just need a bit
more time to grow up mentally before she will be ready to settle down
under saddle.
jc
Dr Corinne B Leek
<sun...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>"Melanie" <womba...@aol.com> wrote:
>>That said, I have brought
>> out the whip without her input and found it much easier to bring him into
>> line because the punishment doesn't involve *more* leg and reward is still
>> less leg. She'd be apalled but what she doesn't know about won't hurt her
>> (I know all you trainers out there are cringing at that attitude ;-)) and
>> I had to do something because her method just didn't seem to be working.
>>
>> Melanie
>Melanie, you need to lose this "trainer" in a big way.
>
>Emily - not the first to say this
Nor the last.
I must confess to cringing at your stories of this "trainer", Melanie.
Lose her. Get a better one that is a better fit for both you and your
horse.
Jill
>>>
>>> Jody
>>>
>> I agree, Jody. Lunging is training not play time. Get your manners
>> in line and work, horse!
>
> At some facilities, the only chance a horse ever has to "play" is on
> the lunge, due to lack of turn-out opportunities. In that case I
> feel it is OK to let the horse play on the lunge.
Why don't they give the horse "free time" in the space, without human or
tack?
That would be 'play' time, and when human is on the other end, that is work
time.
Or do they really not have that much time between animals needing to use a
space?
[different situation for babies]
--
regards
Jill Bowis
Domestic Poultry and Waterfowl Solutions
Herbaceous; Herb and Alpine Nursery
Seasonal Farm Food
http://www.kintaline.co.uk
Jill
> <sun...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>> "Melanie" <womba...@aol.com> wrote:
>>> That said, I have brought
>>> out the whip without her input and found it much easier to bring
>>> him into line because the punishment doesn't involve *more* leg and
>>> reward is still less leg. She'd be apalled but what she doesn't
>>> know about won't hurt her (I know all you trainers out there are
>>> cringing at that attitude ;-)) and I had to do something because
>>> her method just didn't seem to be working.
>>>
>>> Melanie
>> Melanie, you need to lose this "trainer" in a big way.
>>
>> Emily - not the first to say this
> Nor the last.
> I must confess to cringing at your stories of this "trainer", Melanie.
> Lose her. Get a better one that is a better fit for both you and your
> horse.
>
reading from here its a 'me too' for a looong time.
JC Dill
> Why don't they give the horse "free time" in the space, without human or
> tack?
Some facilities let you turn your horse out in a fenced arena "when no
one else is using it" but that free time may not coincide with your
schedule - it may be that your time at the barn is when the arena is in
heavy use. Some facilities have no fenced areas where horses are
allowed to be turned out - only arenas and they don't allow horses to be
turned-out in the arenas at any time. You can lunge in an arena while
someone else is riding at the other end (depending on the facility
rules, and how well you can control your horse while lunging), and you
can lunge in an unfenced area such as a "dressage court" that has a low
railing but no fence.
IMHO it's also useful for a horse to know how to play on a lunge, and
when to work on the lunge. I also trained Breeze to roll on the
lunge/lead - this was very useful to let him roll in the sand after a
workout where there was no turn-out (e.g. at a show, or after a trail
ride). He LOVED to roll, and it was great to let him roll after
stripping his tack and before giving him a bath because then he wouldn't
roll after his bath and would stay clean. I had a clear cue for him so
he didn't just try to roll at any old time, only when I indicated it was
allowed.
jc
Sharon Potter
> Dr Corinne B Leek wrote:
>> On Mon, 6 Oct 2008 08:23:12 -0400, "Emily Brooks"
>> <sun...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>
>>> "Melanie" <womba...@aol.com> wrote:
>>>> That said, I have brought
>>>> out the whip without her input and found it much easier to bring
>>>> him into line because the punishment doesn't involve *more* leg and
>>>> reward is still less leg. She'd be apalled but what she doesn't
>>>> know about won't hurt her (I know all you trainers out there are
>>>> cringing at that attitude ;-)) and I had to do something because
>>>> her method just didn't seem to be working.
>>>> Melanie
>>> Melanie, you need to lose this "trainer" in a big way.
>>>
>>> Emily - not the first to say this
>> Nor the last.
>> I must confess to cringing at your stories of this "trainer", Melanie.
>> Lose her. Get a better one that is a better fit for both you and your
>> horse.
>>
>
> reading from here its a 'me too' for a looong time.
>
I'll add my vote, too...find a real trainer, if for no other reason than
the well being of your horse and yourself.
Sharon Potter
Red Branch
cindi
> I understand what you are saying, but I remain skeptical about the
> concept of the horse understanding release as being related to the
> bucking strap. I fear the horse will associate release with the
> removal of the saddle and may present problems with ever being able to
> use a rear cinch and tighten it to the point where it is useful and
> safe. It just goes contrary to everything I have ever heard, read or
> experienced personally concerning bucking and colt training. I have
> only seen round pen training with newly started colts done with
> absolute control of the horse's movement i.e. keep him busy turning
> and rating his speed to prevent bucking. I guess time will tell if
> his method is a good one. Thanks for the response.
Just chiming in with my experience... I buck almost everything here
out with a lariat or long line around the flank, on the lunge. I keep
the pressure on until they do the right thing, which would be to quit
bucking... I work them until they won't buck when the pressure is on
and they just ignore it. I of course don't do this until they are
very good on the lunge line; I don't want them confused about how to
execute the right behavior. They also really need to know not to
invade my space when upset before I'll do this. NONE of the horses
I've done this with have ever bucked under saddle since... Most had
not yet bucked under saddle, but two three year olds started not by me
had already started bucking under saddle with their riders before I
got them, and I bucked them out, and they don't buck under saddle
anymore.
I don't agree with the "never let them even think about bucking"
method of training... We can't control every little bit of what they
think, and a horse who goes months without bucking and who suddenly
gets overwhelmed and throws in a buck is potentially going to scare
himself very badly which can make the situation worse with more
bucking, from the sensation of what happens to the saddle and their
bodies when they buck under saddle... I want them to have already
experienced that and already know that they are not going to die and
that the best thing to do is just get back to work.
I also do this because I want them experienced with the sensation of
things going wrong around their flank area. You never know where
beginner students might end up, LOL, so I try to desensitize all their
body parts. If this desensitization causes bucking, then I treat it
just like any other unwanted response - ignore it, keep the pressure
the same, release when they quit reacting to it, lather rinse repeat
until it is no longer any big deal at all. I use a rope around their
flank like I said and also a lower one above the hocks and also one
acting like a crupper and I do it with plastic and tarps in the same
areas also. And of course they also learn to drag stuff - that often
results in a buck, and I certainly don't want them winding up dragging
a rider and bucking because of it.
That happened to my former working student who now only works for
board and doesn't lesson with me anymore - she got a new horse and
told me she was goosy about being ridden bareback, having her udder
touched, having her hind legs handled and the flank cinch, and I
suggested she work on that but she didn't see the need since in her
mind she would just stay away from those areas, but then during a
barrel race her saddle slid and she fell over and was hanging near the
flank and hind leg for a minute and that freaked her horse out who
went to bucking, and that freaked her out even more since she had
never bucked with a saddle before, especially with something hanging
off her side, and she bucked her rider loose, ran thru the crowd
crashing into people and knocking another rider off her horse and
really hurting her, and almost wound up loose on the highway... So,
yeah, I try to make sure the horse experiences all those sensations he
might accidentally experience, so it's not novel, and so he has a
memory of what to do.
You certainly don't want them getting the idea that bucking under
saddle (or any time they are not on their own time) is the right thing
to do, but there are all kinds of things they will do at first that we
show them are not the right things to do, and this is no different.
It's not right to not pick up a foot when asked, it's not right to
spook at silly stuff, it's not right to be afraid of the saddle, it's
not right to balk or nap, it's not right to bite or kick at us, etc
etc etc. They might do all that at first and we show them thru proper
training that it's best for them not to, just like we show them it's
not right for them to buck when they get upset. Same with spooking;
sure, you want them not to, but the way to get them not to is not to
just hope it never happens.
I think a lot of folks have a lot of success with the "never let them
buck" method because most horses today, especially stock horses, have
excellent breeding and are not very buck-prone anymore at all. I hear
trainer after trainer after trainer remark about how over the years
the buck has been less and less and less, and how most of their colts
that come in to be started never buck at all now. So it's really hard
to say if that method is actually working... I also have found that
some horses are just not very bucky; some never even buck no matter
what I have going on in the flank area or anywhere else. That's
great; it's still good desensitization work for them. But for the
ones for whom buck is an immediate answer to any problem, it is great
to get them to where they don't see any benefit in it.
There is a super bucky horse here; she's the one dragging the tarp in
these pics:
http://allisonacres.org/apriltarp1.jpg
http://allisonacres.org/apriltarp4.jpg
http://allisonacres.org/apriltarp5.jpg
She is quiet as can be (she is Rain's daughter!) but when something
suddenly bothers her, whammo... She was bucking a lot under saddle
before my work with the rope and tarp. No bucks since... (knocks
wood) I actually think she might throw in a few now and then over the
next year or so since that is her response to being upset, but I think
this work and maybe more we might do in the future will help her
understand it's pointless.
I'd make a video, but you can just watch Chris Cox "Stop the Bucking"
or Dennis Reis with any of his colt starting videos. They are both
more attractive than me anyway. :-) Well, OK, Chris is, but Dennis
sits a horse purtier than me. :-)
take care all!
cindi
Ocean of Nuance
(snip)
> I don't agree with the "never let them even think about bucking"
> method of training... We can't control every little bit of what they
> think, and a horse who goes months without bucking and who suddenly
> gets overwhelmed and throws in a buck is potentially going to scare
> himself very badly which can make the situation worse with more
> bucking, from the sensation of what happens to the saddle and their
> bodies when they buck under saddle... I want them to have already
> experienced that and already know that they are not going to die and
> that the best thing to do is just get back to work.
Can I ask what you would have done in the following totally random
(actually Pete last night) situation.
We are doing the walk work for I don't know, five minutes, and then
suddenly he realizes there is a small rug hanging over a gate near the
arena. It was there the whole time but he didn't notice it sooner.
He's very "geniusy" that way. :)
Well. Threatened rearing and bolting ensues when I ask him to move near
it. I try that for a few minutes with no headway. So I get off and try
to walk him towards it. More threatened rearing/bolting. I ask him to
stand. Then one step closer and ask him to stand. Repeat several times
until we are within 2 meters. I make him stand there for a bit and he
is blowing and thinking about bolting the entire time. But he stood
there on a loose rein goddamit.
By this time, I am running out of time and just ask someone to take the
rug away. I burned over half my available time dicking with this damn
rug and its memory.
I remounted. He remained resistant to going near that end of the arena
so I insisted for the rest of the ride he go past there. He was trying
to veer the entire time.
What was the correct thing to do in your opinion because I still don't know.
Thanks,
sharon
Sharon Potter
I'd put him to work at the trot, put him on the bit and in front of my
leg, and that would be the end of it. If he's on the bit and through,
he will be focused on me and our work, and sightseeing won't happen. If
it does, it's because it's been allowed by putting the horse on cruise
control rather than riding.
Sharon Potter
Red Branch
Ocean of Nuance
Well, there's a thought. :)
He didn't notice it for five minutes during the walk work and that is
done on the buckle.
He was working correctly at the other end (the mirror end no less) after
the rug was removed but would still try to veer when I went past that point.
Next time I'll be more insistent.
sharon
cindi
wrote:
> What was the correct thing to do in your opinion because I still don't know.
Move the rug right away so you can focus on your lesson and not waste
your money - unless, that is, you would like your instructor's help on
this issue during that lesson. If so, do that. If not, move the
rug. Then you have to come back and work on it yourself, later, on
your own time.
So, for anything that's in the environment that's scaring the horse,
there are two things to do: get the horse to work anyway, properly,
and get the horse to check out/touch the item. I work both, not at
the exact same time...
For the "work properly anyway" component, I'd start far enough away
that he's not noticing the item, and do something complex but that he
knows well. Inch closer, insisting on proper work. Remain just
outside of total freakout zone. Work should include getting closer
and farther away from item, but again not so close as to cause total
freakout. Freakout zone should get closer and closer to the item.
This can of course be under saddle or not, but if done via groundwork,
you have to already have some groundwork training on the horse that is
somewhat advanced - a go foreward cue, a shoulders out of your space
cue, a turning cue via either disengagement of the hindquarters or a
rollback, a carry yourself/don't pull on the line cue... Having all
that there already helps the horse realize he is to work and obey you
and not just charge around like a lunatic. Occasionally I'll get a
horse with no groundwork skills who is terrified of something and we
need to work on it right away, and you certainly can train all those
things I just mentioned at the same time as a horse is afraid of
something in the area, but it's more complicated... Better the skills
are already there.
At any rate, as you work getting closer and moving away, getting
closer and moving away, insisting on proper work, at some point horsey
will be tired and will appreciate the chance to air up. This chance
can be given close to the scary item, so as to build a positive
association, with further work starting back up away from the scary
item after the rest.
Then I start with the touch it work... So I'm switching to the other
body language - before I was in the "horse, move" body language phase
and now I'm in the "horse, stay" body language phase. (Stay meaning
stay where I ask you to go, which is usually near/at the item or near/
with me.)
You can put it in the center of the ring and send the horse to it
(extremely helpful if he already knows a send cue), releasing the
pressure for any signs of interest in the item, putting the pressure
on for any signs of wishing to avoid the item. You can put it on the
fence and do the same thing. Or on a barrel or mounting block. I
also then take it and carry it and walk around letting the horse
follow behind, thus building his curiosity about an item that is
moving away from him. Then I move the item while expecting the horse
to not react. Release the pressure when the horse does the right
thing, as always, of course this time the right thing being to stay
still. Work a certain spot until the response is right, then release,
then pick a different spot and continue... When the air all around the
horse has been used and he's desensitized to that, I flap it around on
him, like a saddle pad, expecting "horse, stay", and of course if he
moves his feet around I just keep his nose tipped toward me and keep
working until he stops moving. Hopefully by this time he's got the
idea because continuing to flap something that's making the horse move
quite a bit can get very tiring, and that is one big way horses get
improperly trained - by us expecting too much too soon and getting
tired and overmounted so to speak and having to give what I call the
"accidental release."
The accidental release and not sufficiently cultivating the two
different body language phases are the biggest problems people seem to
have. The body language thing especially - a lot of people have their
"middle of the road" body language and don't know how to turn it up or
down, and that is very confusing for a horse. My horses all look to
me first to see if I'm saying "horse, go" or "horse, stay", and then
they choose how to respond to the stimulus in the environment based on
that. If my body language is middle of the road with no clear
difference between stay and go, they have to try to figure it out
based on other input - this happens with my students all the time. A
horse won't move or a horse moves when they don't want him to, because
they don't give a clear body language idea to the horse before
applying the stimulus. Like if you are totally a bored young teen who
is too cool to do anything other than look totally bored all the time
no matter what, it is very hard to get your horse to go, even when you
give it the go cues. And if you are a totally excited pre-adolescent
child who is just so super super excited and happy happy happy bouncy
giggly all molecules in the body vibrating at light speed type, it's
hard to get your horse to stay even when you give the stay cues. So
the body language is very important.
I don't get off and walk the horse toward the stationary item. The
horse won't lead willingly with a nice forward attitude, so you wind
up inching up, which makes the horse feel you are afraid of the item
too... I will pick it up and briskly walk off while carrying it,
asking the horse to come with (and I don't care if at first he's at
the end of my 14' rope going right and left, as long as he's coming
with and not running me over or pulling on me) or I'll send him over
to it, but trying to lead a horse up to something he's afraid of often
does not work well. When you carry it off and ask the horse to come
with, he will rapidly develop a curiosity about the item that is not
present when it looms nearby on a fence and you are trying to inch
yourself and him up to it.
Anyway I could go on and on but my mom called and she made chili. :-)
cindi
Ocean of Nuance
> On Oct 6, 3:00 pm, Ocean of Nuance <lizzardwomanRM...@nc.rr.com>
> wrote:
>
>> What was the correct thing to do in your opinion because I still don't know.
>
> Move the rug right away so you can focus on your lesson and not waste
> your money - unless, that is, you would like your instructor's help on
> this issue during that lesson.
It wasn't a lesson. I was practicing.
(snip training method)
Okay I'll save that and study it.
Thanks.
In re my body language. I was standing near his left shoulder, speaking
occasionally not constantly to keep his attention, and asking him to
keep his head low. I gave him a release (from rein and voice) him if he
kept his head low and stood on a loose rein. He was mostly compliant
but I did not have even half his attention.
sharon
J. Z. M.
> I think a lot of folks have a lot of success with the "never let them
> buck" method because most horses today, especially stock horses, have
> excellent breeding and are not very buck-prone anymore at all. I hear
> trainer after trainer after trainer remark about how over the years
> the buck has been less and less and less, and how most of their colts
> that come in to be started never buck at all now.
Domestication is a wonderful thing. Yes, I do believe certain DNA will buck
more than the average bear. :) I have to add one thing. The *never buck*
school sometimes has very large animals to deal with, and not the little QH
you are used to. My Marcker is 17.2 hands. Now the buck on 17.2 is a whole
'nother animal than the buck on a little 15 hand QH; plus it might be a tad
more inventive in air time. Take my word for it the Earth is VERY far away
on a big horse. Big horses have to behave more than little ones, pure
sanity. Why do you think the domestication of the draft horse has led it to
be one of the world's calmest temperament? No good can come of a 1800lb
bucker. Mr. Marcker weighs in at 1400lbs, I do not want to sit out the
bucks, Bucko. Thankyouverymuch. He gonna stay Earth bound, no ifs, ands, or
buts.
:)))
Jody
Ocean of Nuance
Amazing to note, a certain WB in Alberta was such a bucker that they
gave up and sold her to the Calgary Stampede types.
I'm guessing she is the only WB in the mare string there now or ever.
:)
sharon
Eileen Morgan
> Ei, I'd be giving some serious thought to leaving Rain with the Cowboy
> for another month. Based on the events so far, I think she needs a lot
> more work with someone who can safely prod her and "bend and go" to keep
> her from exploding but also stick the bucks (if she bucks) so that if
> she explodes again, she doesn't manage to get a rider off.
Don't worry, the thought has crossed my mind. Since she has already
overstayed her time, I am not sure if he has the space for her or not.
Partly it will depend on how he feels about her this week--most of the
time, she's very good. The ring work we did this weekend (before we
terrorized her with the monsters) she was very good indeed. And when I
am ready for it, I've been fine for her Spook Monsters. =8-0
But I am not going to play hero queen and get squished, either.
> Maybe ask Cowboy if he has any horses he'd like you to take home and
> ride for a month, in partial trade?
I don't have the sort of time that would take, especially coming into
the crunchy time of my semester and the weather and darkness of late fall.
> If you simply can't afford more time with Cowboy at this point, perhaps
> you should just let her have the winter off. She may just need a bit
> more time to grow up mentally before she will be ready to settle down
> under saddle.
Like I said, most of her work has been excellent--it's a small percent
which makes us all go "woot!". I really, really don't want to wind up
the fall with her on the notion that she's just too difficult for me to
work with. That gets to be a mental block, ya know? We had one bad
experience together a few weeks ago, but all my other work with her has
been positive (although not always easy, a la Sunday's session). If she
needs some more wet saddle blanket time before I am 100% secure with
her, that's OK with me too. Tony has a good idea of where she is and
where I am, and I am sure he doesn't want me to get hurt. She's going to
be one of those horses which get a little wiggy about things, but the
more time we have together the more I'll know how much I can push her
and the more she will have experienced and not be as bothered about.
Eileen Morgan
The Mare's Nest
Eileen Morgan
> Can I ask what you would have done in the following totally random
> (actually Pete last night) situation.
Bend and send. Bend towards the monster, keep the nose down so they
don't invert and rear, keep the feet moving to prevent bucking. DRIVE as
much as you need to in order to get forward motion--dig in your heels if
you need to, wiggle your spur if you have to. This is what we were doing
with my Rain with the Monsters.
Ocean of Nuance
> Ocean of Nuance wrote:
>
>> Can I ask what you would have done in the following totally random
>> (actually Pete last night) situation.
>
> Bend and send. Bend towards the monster, keep the nose down so they
> don't invert and rear, keep the feet moving to prevent bucking. DRIVE as
> much as you need to in order to get forward motion--dig in your heels if
> you need to, wiggle your spur if you have to. This is what we were doing
> with my Rain with the Monsters.
I like this approach. Very much. After I was able to spin him out of
the rearing in Canada, I have a certain (misplaced?) feeling like I can
handle some nonsense. On the other hand, I have kids who depend on me... :0
But I don't wear spurs. Will a whip substitute?
sharon
Eileen Morgan
Whatever sends him forward--even if it isn't the perfect forward, as
long as you are engaging his parts and working him past the monster, you
are more successful that if you have to quit or change the environment,
ya know?
And you are safest for your kids when you can control your horse in an
unexpected circumstance, period. We cannot always avoid things. Being
able to deal with the thing is better than trying to have complete
control over the environment around us.
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
<alliso...@yahoo.com> wrote:
snip
>Just chiming in with my experience... I buck almost everything here
>out with a lariat or long line around the flank, on the lunge. I keep
>the pressure on until they do the right thing, which would be to quit
>bucking... I work them until they won't buck when the pressure is on
>and they just ignore it. I of course don't do this until they are
>very good on the lunge line; I don't want them confused about how to
>execute the right behavior. They also really need to know not to
>invade my space when upset before I'll do this. NONE of the horses
>I've done this with have ever bucked under saddle since... Most had
>not yet bucked under saddle, but two three year olds started not by me
>had already started bucking under saddle with their riders before I
>got them, and I bucked them out, and they don't buck under saddle
>anymore.
Mugwump of Mugwump Chronicles does much the same thing, for the
same reason.
>I don't agree with the "never let them even think about bucking"
>method of training... We can't control every little bit of what they
>think, and a horse who goes months without bucking and who suddenly
>gets overwhelmed and throws in a buck is potentially going to scare
>himself very badly which can make the situation worse with more
>bucking, from the sensation of what happens to the saddle and their
>bodies when they buck under saddle... I want them to have already
>experienced that and already know that they are not going to die and
>that the best thing to do is just get back to work.
Yeah. Agree with this. But then, my teen years was spent with a
confirmed bucker that I actually didn't start coming off of until we'd
gotten past the worst stuff and those were accidental bucks when she
was much older and out of the habit of bucking at the slightest hint
of a disagreement--stumble, then buck for balance type stuff. She
never followed up on those, but that was loooong after I'd ridden
through some stuff that it sure would have been nice to have a pickup
man to yank me off after 8 seconds! (and I have the messed up nose to
prove it in at least one case).
These days, with one like that, I'd buck her out on the ground.
jrw
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
<lizzardw...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
snip
>Well. Threatened rearing and bolting ensues when I ask him to move near
>it. I try that for a few minutes with no headway. So I get off and try
>to walk him towards it. More threatened rearing/bolting. I ask him to
>stand. Then one step closer and ask him to stand. Repeat several times
>until we are within 2 meters. I make him stand there for a bit and he
>is blowing and thinking about bolting the entire time. But he stood
>there on a loose rein goddamit.
Two-track him (leg yield) toward it with the bend toward the Scary
Object, your leg on the other side from the Scary Object doing the
work. Work him in a small circle near it, keep him moving until he
decides that it's more work to fight about it than to just deal.
If he spooks and spins, whirl him around and practice your reining
spins until one of you gets too dizzy to move any more!
Don't forget "QUIT, DAMNIT!!!!"
jrw
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
Nah.
Don't forget there was a heavy dose of draft in a lot of the
early-bred QHs. Draft+TB or QH=buckers.
Take a look at some picks of the old timey Hancocks.
jrw
cindi
> These days, with one like that, I'd buck her out on the ground.
That is certainly where I do it. :-)
cindi
Jill
>
> What was the correct thing to do in your opinion because I still
> don't know.
Get him really working, so his attention is on you.
You know he is not frightened so its messing about.
Any sign of spook means 'really hard labour' even if its not in the
immediate vicinity, release happens nearer the horrid thing, BUT one whisker
of a twitch and its back to action.
Use the situation positively, instead of it "wasting" your time.
I would have probably worked to ending up with him working around the arena
wearing it or some such.
As long as you have achieved something then the session is not wasted, and
not playing ijits to mess about is a valuable lesson, even if you had other
aims when you went into the arena.
Spend other time working on obedience in hand and on board so that if you
say its okay, he knows that you mean it.
Ocean of Nuance
I'll try the "QUIT DAMMIT!"
This episode was extremely similar to the glittery streamer episode of
last month whreein my instructor took 20-30 minuites on and off the
horse to get him to accept the streamers being there on the side of the
arena and still work in the arena. Same issue. She needed to work with
him more days after that on the streamer issue. He was much improved
over this time but still had issues with that end of the arena (wanting
to veer).
I wonder if his eyesight is going. Or his brain.
Maybe he is flighty. When I look back on the roto-router episode, the
deer in the woods episode, the glittery streamer episode, the rug
episode, some I'm forgetting episodes, maybe it's a pattern. It's only
a small fraction of my saddle time but I don't see other horses doing
that stuff.
sharon
Jill
> Maybe he is flighty. When I look back on the roto-router episode, the
> deer in the woods episode, the glittery streamer episode, the rug
> episode, some I'm forgetting episodes, maybe it's a pattern. It's
> only a small fraction of my saddle time but I don't see other horses
> doing that stuff.
>
From a completely different angle : Maybe he is Bored ?
Eileen Morgan
> Yeah. Agree with this. But then, my teen years was spent with a
> confirmed bucker that I actually didn't start coming off of until we'd
> gotten past the worst stuff and those were accidental bucks when she
> was much older and out of the habit of bucking at the slightest hint
> of a disagreement
This is where I feel a bit of a puzzle about Rain. 90% of the time I
have spent on her it took the middle of my skill set to be safe,
teaching her something, and riding her in general. 9% of the time we had
some behavior over monsters of one kind or another and the ability it
took to ride her shot to the top strata of my skill set, but I remained
on the horse and worked out the issue safely for both of us. 1% of the
time she went right out of my skill set (ie, that ride where I came off
after the unexpected spook/rear/leap). If she were always on the verge
it would be easier to cope with, I think, but since it is a come and go
thing (unless we are provoking it like Sunday) I think it is a little
harder to feel secure.
So almost always I am fine, well within my comfort level. Then 10% of
the time I am out of my comfort zone, but only a wee little slice of
that 10% went out of my skill set--and that was 50% of her time under
saddle ago, which is a long time in terms of her overall training time.
My initial intention was always to do driving training in the summer,
get on when it seemed appropriate, and work through the fall and then
lay her off to grow up some more. I really don't want to be piddling
around with her in late fall, even if she is going well--I won't be able
to get on more than 2-4 times a week, realistically speaking.
With Bard, I started him at home alone, then in the spring of his 4th
year boarded him where I could ride him in lessons and my dressage coach
could ride him also, so we had him always working consistently and I had
eyes with me on the ground when I was riding. Then I started doing some
rides alone, then less lessons, then we came home when I felt secure
that I could ride here with no help and all would be OK. My dressage
coach is no longer in business, but Michelle who did the driving
training will probably be available (I say probably because you never
know sometimes when someone has a brand new infant and Michelle is due
late this month--some moms just don't have the guts that they did before
kids. They seem to get them back when the children are more self
sufficient; I think it is an encoded in the DNA thing for some women, a
survival of the species thing). So I might put my eye on that for Rain
and when I bring her home just turn her out. I also want to have a very
positive ride on her down there with Tony before she comes home so that
I feel confident that we are both on a good note before she takes her break.
So there are my muses for the moment. She really has coped with a lot of
pressure and new situations and learning with great aplomb--she's not
bat shit by any stretch of the imagination. Just a bit on the willful
side and reactive. I think I'll call Tony and trot past him whether or
not he thinks a few more weeks with him getting some wet saddle blankets
is workable (he has a lot of horses in right now and two of us stayed
over time) or if I should bring her home, maybe do some sacking out work
on the ground and some driving, then throw her out to grow.
I am considering pricing out a free standing round pen with all the
extra cash I don't have--it's always useful to have a portable corral
like that in case someone has a layup, I want to set it up for free
working a horse, etc.
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
wrote:
>Joyce Reynolds-Ward wrote:
>> Yeah. Agree with this. But then, my teen years was spent with a
>> confirmed bucker that I actually didn't start coming off of until we'd
>> gotten past the worst stuff and those were accidental bucks when she
>> was much older and out of the habit of bucking at the slightest hint
>> of a disagreement
>
>This is where I feel a bit of a puzzle about Rain. 90% of the time I
>have spent on her it took the middle of my skill set to be safe,
>teaching her something, and riding her in general. 9% of the time we had
>some behavior over monsters of one kind or another and the ability it
>took to ride her shot to the top strata of my skill set, but I remained
>on the horse and worked out the issue safely for both of us. 1% of the
>time she went right out of my skill set (ie, that ride where I came off
>after the unexpected spook/rear/leap). If she were always on the verge
>it would be easier to cope with, I think, but since it is a come and go
>thing (unless we are provoking it like Sunday) I think it is a little
>harder to feel secure.
Rain sounds like some of the hotter QHs I've seen come through the
barn--generally mares with a touch of racing blood in them. Same
reactiveness, same sort of reliable 90% of the time but there's that
9% and 1% point as well.
She may well mellow as she matures, though. Miss Mocha at 8 is not
the hot horse she was at 5, and she tends to stop and think before
reacting 99% of the time.
It's that 1%--or the 25% of the time where she thinks she needs to be
in charge...
jrw
Catja Pafort
> SO, I'm typing, which means I survived our "spook Rain on purpose"
> schooling session today. :-)
>
> We were supposed to work her last night and today, but we got there late
> and Tony had a bunch going on so we just put it off til this morning. So
> I get out there, Carl drops me and goes for errands, and Tony tells me
> that Rain bucked him off the day before. <rolls eyes> Now THAT is what I
> want to hear before I get on, LOL.
Never a boring moment, eh?
Kudos to you for sticking it out.
Catja
--
writing blog @ http://beyond-elechan.livejournal.com
Catja Pafort
> this mare had just
> decided to try out bucking with great success when she unloaded her
> rider (he does work to prevent behavior, FWIW, but this was just one of
> those Oh Shit things). So she is presenting the bucking, has won an
> argument with it, and now thinks this is a great tool. The bucking strap
> in the round pen encourages her to try bucking to get her release again,
> but it does not come off. She gets no release for the hard bucking
> behavior, and until she is civilized again, she gets pressured (but not
> hurt) by the strap. So in her mind after this session, bucking does not
> equal release--stopping that nonsense equals release.
Crumble would have killed himself - or someone else - if you had tried
that method. He just did not used to have the brainpower to stop and
*think* - he'd just be reacting.
Catja Pafort
> letting the horse
> know that they can't win a bucking fight is crucial.
Only there's no way to _ensure_ that. Eileen's guy sounds pretty welded
to the saddle, and even such as he can have an off-moment.
I guess I just don't feel comfortable taking a greeny into situations
where they might lose it and trust that I will be able to keep them
together and ride them through it. I like to put much more of a handle
on a horse and set myself up for success.
Catja Pafort
> We are doing the walk work for I don't know, five minutes, and then
> suddenly he realizes there is a small rug hanging over a gate near the
> arena. It was there the whole time but he didn't notice it sooner.
> He's very "geniusy" that way. :)
I've seen that kinf of beahviour in stressed horses, respectively horses
in pain. They can take so much, and suddenly! they explode 'out of
nowhere' for no - or a very silly - reason. So that's my first step,
check just how through and relaxed your horse is when you ride him. Does
he drop his nose all the way to the ground and swing through his whole
body?
> Well. Threatened rearing and bolting ensues when I ask him to move near
> it. I try that for a few minutes with no headway.
Fun. Is this a new behaviour, or has he shown it before and you've never
tackled it?
> So I get off and try
> to walk him towards it. More threatened rearing/bolting. I ask him to
> stand. Then one step closer and ask him to stand. Repeat several times
> until we are within 2 meters. I make him stand there for a bit and he
> is blowing and thinking about bolting the entire time. But he stood
> there on a loose rein goddamit.
If he's not willing to follow you on the ground, you have a problem. I'd
do more groundwork with him. There might always be things that spook him
- but he can at least try.
> By this time, I am running out of time and just ask someone to take the
> rug away. I burned over half my available time dicking with this damn
> rug and its memory.
Don't do that. If you had someone take it away so you can work your
horse because you haven't got time to work through that problem on that
day, fine. It's not ideal, but it's ok. But I sincerely hope that today
you will take that horse, place helper and rug nearby, and work until
your horse stops batting his eyelid at the monster.
You have three ways of tackling this:
- ride him through it and insist on obedience. Works for generally
obedient horses and small irritations, but you have a chance of getting
into a fight, and I personally would not wish to deal with rearing and
spinbolts if I can reach my goal without.
- work inside his comfort zone away from the thing and creep a little
closer until you're there. Some horses find their brain if you take them
away from the danger, let them settle, they can see from a distance it's
not dangerous, and they'll accept it later.
- get the horse to check it out and decide it's harmless. I put the
behaviour on cue with Crumble - I'd say 'take a look,' if he stepped
forward and touched <whatever>, he'd get a treat.
There was a time when he got lots of treats.
There was also a hilarious time when we were out hacking and he'd start
to stop dead and nose things - rocks, treetrunks, whatever, clearly
expecting to be praised.
In the end, his spook pattern changed from 'OMG <panic> <spinbolt>' to
stop, stare, and continue.
Now comes the tricky bit: you need to find out which method is right for
your horse. If you use the wrong approach, it will make him even
spookier.
> I remounted. He remained resistant to going near that end of the arena
> so I insisted for the rest of the ride he go past there. He was trying
> to veer the entire time.
And the next rug will create what reaction? This is the beginning of
autumn, you have what, six months ahead of people throwing rugs over
kickboards and doors?
Your next challenge, and dressage training be damned, is to solve this.
You now know it's a problem; go and fill that hole in his training.
I wonder what he'd have made of the arena I used to ride in. People used
to store their shavings next to it. Huge towers of plastic bags wrapped
in plastic that would come loose in the wind and flutter merrily next to
the fence.
You can say a lot about Crumble, but there never was an arena with a
spot he didn't want to pass. Not even that one.
Catja Pafort
> I discourage lunge act up tactics. Which brings me to
> another pet peave, I hate to see horses acting much as idiots on lunge
> lines. WTF? Where is the rider discouraging this sort of behavior? Standing
> there ho-humming while the horse bucks, farts, and tears around. NO. This is
> not acceptable behavior. Snarling, and reprimanding them, bringing them
> under control on the ground makes your life easier, the horse learns
> behavior that is desirable, and does not **think** about unruly behavior as
> the norm.
Sometimes it's easier to just let your horse get it out of his system
without making an act of it.
It really, really depends on the horse and how well you know it. and how
mannerly he is otherwise. Just as I do not handfeed a mouthy horse, and
would never allow one to nuzzle my clothes, Crumble, who was always
polite and at most would give you a _very_ gentle nudge got treats by
hand all the time.
In general, I agree. I also expect manners if I work my horse free in a
roundpen or arena.
Catja Pafort
> Bucking and rearing is where my trainer and I disagree. I have told her that
> if Fire ever reared it would be the last time I ever rode him. She told me
> rearing isn't all that bad and she's ridden a lot of them
Find another trainer.
Unless she's specialising in remedial horses, she has ridden far too
many rearers.
I've had two horses rear with me, and I've ridden for 25+ years. The
first was a schoolie whose owners put in very tight sidereins while I
was riding - next time I asked him to circle, he went up. Nowhere to go.
The other time was Crumble who had told me repeatedly that his brain
wasn't up to coping with my demands, when he left the ground (barely) I
bloody well listened.
I've ridden horses with a reputation for rearing, but I didn't put them
into situations where they felt rearing was their only option; and to
the best of my knowledge, I have yet to watch a horse rear without
provocation.
Not saying they don't exist. Not saying that it's not sometimes easy to
misjudge just a little and set a horse off. But if someone rides a lot
of rearers, I wonder what all those rearers have in common... the rider.
JC Dill
> In general, I agree. I also expect manners if I work my horse free in a
> roundpen or arena.
In general, I agree too. I just wanted to point out that there are
circumstances (hot/young horse, lack of turn-out) where it is sometimes
OK to let a horse play on a lunge. But I personally prefer most of the
time to utilize that energy in riding, rather than expend/waste it by
letting a horse play (in turn-out or on the lunge) immediately before
riding.
jc
Nancy...@gmail.com
> Anyway I could go on and on but my mom called and she made chili. :-)
Anyone have a pet chili recipe? I have to make chili for 75 for our
club's annual trail ride Sunday. Being a last-minute sort, I haven't
put a whole lot of thought into it yet. :)
Nancy DeMarco
Mason, NH
Fran Bragg
<Nancy...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:99514980-dbac-4fe6...@w1g2000prk.googlegroups.com...
cindi <allisonac...@yahoo.com> wrote:
__________
I know Jinks and Louise have been giving you a hard time lately, but don't
you think it's rather harsh to make chili out of them? ;)
Fran
Nancy...@gmail.com
> I know Jinks and Louise have been giving you a hard time lately, but don't
> you think it's rather harsh to make chili out of them? ;)
No need to add cheese. :)
Nancy DeMarco
Mason, NH
Ocean of Nuance
> Ocean of Nuance wrote:
>
>> We are doing the walk work for I don't know, five minutes, and then
>> suddenly he realizes there is a small rug hanging over a gate near the
>> arena. It was there the whole time but he didn't notice it sooner.
>> He's very "geniusy" that way. :)
>
> I've seen that kinf of beahviour in stressed horses, respectively horses
> in pain. They can take so much, and suddenly! they explode 'out of
> nowhere' for no - or a very silly - reason. So that's my first step,
> check just how through and relaxed your horse is when you ride him. Does
> he drop his nose all the way to the ground and swing through his whole
> body?
He is fine under saddle and in hand. He will do f/d/o when asked. He
will continue to carry if I give one or both reins. He shows no sign of
pain or even discomfort for quite a while now. He is not consumed by
the thought of going near the mirrors any more. He is easy to ride, not
against, even in the hand, working into my hand, rounding from my
posture alone, working off weight aids, turning to where I look, moving
off the slightest aiding, swingy, bilaterally adept on the ground in the
work which is now easy for him, etc.
His feet are stable, he clearly likes my new saddle, he seems content, etc.
He loved being at my trainer's barn, he loves my trainer, he settled
back in here - I had a great lesson about an hour after he stepped off
the trailer, etc.
He did not spook as it was all going down... it was limited to before
and now well after he has been completely and slowly rehabbed. So if
there are horses who react the way you say, I don't think Pete is one of
them.
>
>> Well. Threatened rearing and bolting ensues when I ask him to move near
>> it. I try that for a few minutes with no headway.
>
> Fun. Is this a new behaviour, or has he shown it before and you've never
> tackled it?
He has shown this behavior before a few times..when the roto-router guy
brought in his big white hose, once when there were some deer near the
tree line (though not at other times there were deer there), when the
glittery streamers were put up for the folks to practice sport horse
versatility. Together, these instances are a vanishingly small fraction
of the total amount of saddle time so it's churlish of me to complain
actually.
(snip)
> You have three ways of tackling this:
>
> - ride him through it and insist on obedience. Works for generally
> obedient horses and small irritations, but you have a chance of getting
> into a fight, and I personally would not wish to deal with rearing and
> spinbolts if I can reach my goal without.
>
> - work inside his comfort zone away from the thing and creep a little
> closer until you're there. Some horses find their brain if you take them
> away from the danger, let them settle, they can see from a distance it's
> not dangerous, and they'll accept it later.
>
> - get the horse to check it out and decide it's harmless. I put the
> behaviour on cue with Crumble - I'd say 'take a look,' if he stepped
> forward and touched <whatever>, he'd get a treat.
Those sound go but I'm going to do the "bend and send" That Eileen
talked about if it happens again. I have a strong feeling that is going
to work.
> There was a time when he got lots of treats.
>
> There was also a hilarious time when we were out hacking and he'd start
> to stop dead and nose things - rocks, treetrunks, whatever, clearly
> expecting to be praised.
>
> In the end, his spook pattern changed from 'OMG <panic> <spinbolt>' to
> stop, stare, and continue.
I think the amount of treats is already over the top with Pete. :0
(snip)
> Your next challenge, and dressage training be damned, is to solve this.
> You now know it's a problem; go and fill that hole in his training.
While it is definitely a problem, since it is confined to something like
0.000001 % of my in hand and riding time, I don't know if I can justify
working on it for great lengths of time. Maybe if it gets worse. But
if the mirror issue is related, he is very much improved. Also, of the
incidents, the very worse was the first - the roto-router thing. The
deer and glitter streamers were not as bad though the throw rug was
almost as bad.
> I wonder what he'd have made of the arena I used to ride in. People used
> to store their shavings next to it. Huge towers of plastic bags wrapped
> in plastic that would come loose in the wind and flutter merrily next to
> the fence.
Well, there is a shavings pile covered with a tarp near the arena that
he seems to ignore and has yet to react to. Just part of his "genius" I
guess.
> You can say a lot about Crumble, but there never was an arena with a
> spot he didn't want to pass. Not even that one.
That's great.
I had a conversation today with my trainer and the bottom line is that
he is just a bit flighty for lack of enough different experiences. And
now that he's 11, that's likely not going to improve much.
His two mommies still love him.
sharon
Mary Healey
> Anyone have a pet chili recipe?
Depends on how "purist" you are. This may quickly devolve into "how can
you EAT THAT?!?" Simple 4-bean Midwestern Irish chili:
2 cans light red kidney beans
2 cans dark red kidney beans
2 cans butter beans
2 cans black beans (drained and rinsed)
1 jar spaghetti sauce
1 lb ground beef (or pork, or turkey, or whatever)
1 chopped onion (optional)
chili powder
Brown ground beef, add chopped onion, season with chili powder (1 Tbsp /
lb). Mix all 8 cans of beans and the jar of spaghetti sauce in a crock pot
or other container sufficient to the job. Add browned meat/onions, add
more chili powder, leave on low heat for a few hours to burble. (When I
had hamburger from an old beef cow, the chili needed to cook for a solid 24
hours before it was edible. Meat from anything under a decade old
shouldn't take nearly that long!) I've been known to add mushrooms (fresh
or canned), green peppers, or anything else in the pantry that strikes my
fancy.
If you've got time and storage, this concoction is usually better the
second day...
--
Mary H. and the restored Ames National Zoo:
The Right Reverand Sir Edgar "Lucky" Pan-Waffles;
U-CD ANZ Babylon Ranger, CD, RE; ANZ Pas de Duke; and rotund Rhia
Bill Kambic
>Nancy...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Anyone have a pet chili recipe?
>
>Depends on how "purist" you are. This may quickly devolve into "how can
>you EAT THAT?!?" Simple 4-bean Midwestern Irish chili:
Irish chili? That's a Crime Against Nature. :-)
Anyone who's ever been to Terlingua will tell you that you never, as
in NEVER, cook the beans with the chilli meat. To do so markes you as
a Damned Yankee. :-)
The Easy Way: go to the grocery store and buy a few packages of Wick
Fowlers 2-Alarm Chilli mix. Follow the instructions and you'll do
just fine. ;-)
Seriously, this is a good product and the instructions allow you to
make it anything from 2-alarm to false-alarm depending on how much hot
spice you want to add. We usually do about 1/4 of the hot spice in
the package (as my wife does not really like cumin) and then "heat it
up" with Tabasco sauce. For a large group you might want to consider
that as an approach
Another chilli making tip: go to the butcher (or meat section) and
have them custom grind the meat and order it very course. If you tell
them what you want it for (and the butcher is not a total ignoramus)
they'll get you a grind that will do quite well. The fine grind that
you get with most ground beef just lacks that "something" that good
chilli has.
If you want to see how many South Texans are in the crowd put out some
regular Fritos, chopped green onions, and cheddar cheese. Then sit
back and watch the fun!!! :-)
Ocean of Nuance
> Nancy...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Anyone have a pet chili recipe?
>
> Depends on how "purist" you are. This may quickly devolve into "how can
> you EAT THAT?!?" Simple 4-bean Midwestern Irish chili:
>
> 2 cans light red kidney beans
> 2 cans dark red kidney beans
> 2 cans butter beans
> 2 cans black beans (drained and rinsed)
> 1 jar spaghetti sauce
> 1 lb ground beef (or pork, or turkey, or whatever)
> 1 chopped onion (optional)
> chili powder
>
> Brown ground beef, add chopped onion, season with chili powder (1 Tbsp /
> lb). Mix all 8 cans of beans and the jar of spaghetti sauce in a crock pot
> or other container sufficient to the job. Add browned meat/onions, add
> more chili powder, leave on low heat for a few hours to burble. (When I
> had hamburger from an old beef cow, the chili needed to cook for a solid 24
> hours before it was edible. Meat from anything under a decade old
> shouldn't take nearly that long!) I've been known to add mushrooms (fresh
> or canned), green peppers, or anything else in the pantry that strikes my
> fancy.
>
> If you've got time and storage, this concoction is usually better the
> second day...
>
You left out the part where you have to keep it away from the canine who
ate the loaf of pepper-cheddar bread. :)
sharon
Dr Corinne B Leek
wrote:
>>Nancy...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> Anyone have a pet chili recipe?
>The Easy Way: go to the grocery store and buy a few packages of Wick
>Fowlers 2-Alarm Chilli mix. Follow the instructions and you'll do
>just fine. ;-)
Carroll Shelby's is pretty good, too.
Can't get 'em up here, so I am hoarding my last couple packs of each
from Texas.
>Seriously, this is a good product and the instructions allow you to
>make it anything from 2-alarm to false-alarm depending on how much hot
>spice you want to add. We usually do about 1/4 of the hot spice in
>the package (as my wife does not really like cumin) and then "heat it
>up" with Tabasco sauce. For a large group you might want to consider
>that as an approach
I like the cumin.
Around here, if I make chili for a group, I have to keep the heat
down. :-(
However.
I'm a "damn Canuck" because I use kidney beans, carrots, green
peppers, mushrooms, onions (natch) and ground chicken. Sometimes
(horrors!) I add TVP to bulk up the ground chicken. ;-) Let it
simmer and sit and you never know the TVP is in there! LOL!
>If you want to see how many South Texans are in the crowd put out some
>regular Fritos, chopped green onions, and cheddar cheese. Then sit
>back and watch the fun!!! :-)
<drool>
Corinne & Crazy Canuck Crew...
--
*** Conserve Energy: Laughter is easier than Anger!
*** cl...@ns.sympatico.ca
Brian Whatcott
wrote:
>....you never, as
>in NEVER, cook the beans with the chilli meat. To do so marks you as
>a Damned Yankee. :-)
>
>The Easy Way: go to the grocery store and buy a few packages of Wick
>Fowlers 2-Alarm Chilli mix. Follow the instructions and you'll do
>just fine. ;-)
The presence of beans is just about disqualifying in any chili cookoff
I've seen in these parts. Still looking to sample a venison chile. One
of these days....
Brian W
Jane Saranac
"Eileen Morgan" <eg...@ptd.net> wrote in message
news:1qmdnTXg24k9gnTV...@ptd.net...
> SO, I'm typing, which means I survived our "spook Rain on purpose"
> schooling session today. :-)
>
> We were supposed to work her last night and today, but we got there late
> and Tony had a bunch going on so we just put it off til this morning. So I
> get out there, Carl drops me and goes for errands, and Tony tells me that
> Rain bucked him off the day before. <rolls eyes> Now THAT is what I want
> to hear before I get on, LOL.
<snip of awesome story>
I give you great credit. As I watch our 18 mo. old baby, Harlee, growing
up, getting bigger and bigger by the minute -- she is already 14.3 and
closing in on 15 HH, and no longer has the spindly legs/bone of youth -- and
as I watch her behavior -- I can't help but wonder how the breaking and
training will go, when it is time for her to be under saddle. She is
AMAZINGLY sane, so many times -- has for now been desensitized to tarps and
flags and large bouncing balls, ropes around her legs and hands all over her
body, to name just a few things. We were cleaning the indoor of cobwebs the
other day, which was no small task, and the most she did with all the
banging on metal and waiving around of 10' poles with rags on the end, was a
tiny sideways startle and then recovery unto herself. She has the
nonchalance with most of these things that much older horses, trown broke
horses, don't have. But I do know, she is still a baby. And when she does
let fly, such as apparently she did in the crisp cool air coming in with the
barn owner the other morning, I am told she pirouettes in midair. I am
really, really hoping that in a couple of years, when she starts under
saddle, it will mostly be a nonevent, and she will be as mellow and
dum--dee--dum as her brother apparently was.... but she _is_ a more. So
far, her "in season" is very mild and the only way it's noticeable is the
discharge, she really doesn't act any different. But she is still very
young. Anyway, this is very exciting stuff.... I am only thinking of our
trainer being on her till she's solid enough for us... so I give you
tremendous credit, Ms. Ei.
I hope that she finds the "oh, you are the leader, and in times of fear
nevertheless I will trust YOU" thing sooner rather than later.
Jane Saranac
"Catja Pafort" <green_...@greenknight.org.uk.invalid> wrote in message
news:1iognvu.1dtu2bv1trvdd7N%green_...@greenknight.org.uk.invalid...
I do so agree, it depends on the horse.
Pal has never acted the lunatic on the lunge. Even there was no bucking and
farting, but there was head tossing, stopping when he wants instead of when
I want, and refusal to go in the direction I want, especially when I first
got him. I don't blame him. I didn't know how to lunge at first, and he
just was being a horse, saying "you want me to go _where_? F.U." Once I
knew what I was doing, that changed. But I still, to this day, am
comfortable to let him him run in the big outdoor arena, bucking and farting
and having a blast. He is sooooo fast and agile, he jumps the jumps that
are set up for the H/J set, he flies around, he stops on a dime, and he
never (knocking wood) hurts himself or anyone else.
My former trainer used to have a cow when she saw it because she always
said, he is going to run away like that with you under saddle. But, she
just didn't know him like I did. Even with a right-brain-wigout, he
wouldn't do that. First of all, in a confined arena, there isn't that
chance -- he knows it's confined. Second, he is a completely different
horse under saddle than when he is allowed to run and play. He is very
aware when he has a rider on his back.... even with just a saddle, no rider,
he'll run like crazy and he is one of the fastest horses I have ever seen, I
think he could win races : ). But not ever with a rider, the same way.
When running free he is also so agile that he turns hairpin turns at the
last second in corners of the ring or when he looks like he's about to crash
into something. But he doesn't. But he is dum-dee-dum and at most, a very
fast and anxious trot, on his "bad" days. He still knows.
So, just to say that I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with
letting some horses buck-and-fart-and-get-crazy. Some are very good about
getting their yayas out that way and being even better, in the wake, under
saddle. Some, I am sure, are like the camel who stuck his nose in the tent,
and get more disobedient as a result, even under saddle. A case by case
kind of thing.
J. Z. M.
> Anyone have a pet chili recipe?
I dunno, which of my pets do you want me to cook up for you? I have a kitty
full of meds, a Golden with manure on her ear, a deaf Aussie, and six horses
who are as marbled as any Monfort beef.
LOL
Jody
jane
is
JANE'S HAWAIIAN STYLE CHILI
Cut 1 lb bacon into 1 inch pieces and fry in the bottom of a big pot
until rendered out. Drain off fat. Add
1 large chopped onion and fry that gently until translucent.
Add 2 tbsps mild chili powder and stir until onion is coated then cook
gently for about 30 seconds.
Add 1/2 pound coarsely chopped lean meat -- beef, pork shoulder or
chuck roast. Stir and cook gently with bacon and onions until browned
and it looks cooked.
Add two large (12 oz) cans ranch style beans (these are pinto beans
that have some chili already cooked into them)
Simmer gently for at least a half hour. This serves about 10.
Not traditional, but very tasty especially with steaming white rice.
To make it even more Hawaiian style, (but not as tasty in my book)
replace bacon with spam... ;-)
Jane
Ruth Baltopoulos
personal taste. I really *love* hand chopped or chunked meat rather than
ground in my chili.
One of my faves is a white chili, using white beans and chicken chunks. I
also love chunks of beef, with a variety of beans, such as in the first
recipe (Mary's?) given.
As for the one comment about beans, it wouldn't be chili to me if it didn't
include a fair amonnt of beans! IMO that is one of the main ingredients :)
--
Ruth B
Bill Kambic
<cl...@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>Seriously, this is a good product and the instructions allow you to
>>make it anything from 2-alarm to false-alarm depending on how much hot
>>spice you want to add. We usually do about 1/4 of the hot spice in
>>the package (as my wife does not really like cumin) and then "heat it
>>up" with Tabasco sauce. For a large group you might want to consider
>>that as an approach
>I like the cumin.
>Around here, if I make chili for a group, I have to keep the heat
>down. :-(
We found the same thing when we lived in MD.
>However.
>I'm a "damn Canuck" because I use kidney beans, carrots, green
>peppers, mushrooms, onions (natch) and ground chicken. Sometimes
>(horrors!) I add TVP to bulk up the ground chicken. ;-) Let it
>simmer and sit and you never know the TVP is in there! LOL!
<frantically making hex signs> Oh My God!!!!!!!!!
Do this in Texas and it's gonna be a lynching for sure. And the
defense will be "a woman who'd make chilli like that needed killin'."
;-)
Sorry, I guess I'm a purist about it. But, then, I was trained by
experts. :-)
Mary Healey
news:qr1se4dnp3r8lcdgp...@4ax.com:
> On Wed, 08 Oct 2008 21:26:58 -0300, Dr Corinne B Leek
> <cl...@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>I'm a "damn Canuck" because I use kidney beans, carrots, green
>>peppers, mushrooms, onions (natch) and ground chicken.
Brave woman, 'fessing to the 'shrooms!
>>Sometimes
>>(horrors!) I add TVP to bulk up the ground chicken. ;-) Let it
>>simmer and sit and you never know the TVP is in there! LOL!
TVP?
> <frantically making hex signs> Oh My God!!!!!!!!!
>
> Do this in Texas and it's gonna be a lynching for sure.
Should I ever find myself cooking in Texas, be assured I'll call the
stuff in the pot "red stew" and not "chili". I might even add a few
potato or other root veggies for effect.
Y'all are making me hungry, and there's a lonely eggplant at home. I
might throw that in the pot with some beans and sauce. Add a few wimpy
stalks of celery. The ingredient that has my roommate nonplussed was
sliced black olives...
> Sorry, I guess I'm a purist about it. But, then, I was trained by
> experts. :-)
Told you it would give purists nightmares!
Mary McHugh
>
> As for the one comment about beans, it wouldn't be chili to me if it didn't
> include a fair amonnt of beans! IMO that is one of the main ingredients :)
I agree... otherwise why would there be a version named "Chili Con Carne"?
I am also fond of corn in my chili.
As for Nancy, I know it'll probably be too late but I think there's a
good recipe in my Emeril's Cooking for a Crowd book but I have to find
it first. =:-o
Mary
Mary McHugh
Actually, the book is Emeril's Potluck and here is what Emeril says
about Chili: "Everyone has an opinion about chili. I can't keep track
of all the itty-bitty differences between this chili and that chili.
So, I take a little bit from each one and make just real good chili the
way I like it."
:)
Mary
Nancy...@gmail.com
> As for Nancy, I know it'll probably be too late but I think there's a
> good recipe in my Emeril's Cooking for a Crowd book but I have to find
> it first. =:-o
I have a basic recipe in my _Food For Fifty_ book. I wondered what
people enjoy adding. Lots of good ideas here. :) As always. :)
And it WILL have beans. Beans are cheap. We're feeding lots of
people and trying to make a few bucks. Beans it is. :) Hadn't
thought of corn. Hmmm... if the other club members don't like having
added corn, maybe I won't need to make the chili next year. ;)
And I'm a complete wimp, so I figure if it's not too hot for me, it's
not too hot for anyone. :)
The person who made it two years ago insists it needs to cook for
about 5 hours. I've never done that with chili. Do most people?
(IIRC, it had a slight burned flavor from catching on - hard to keep
that huge kettle stirred for 5 hours.)
Guess I ought to, at least, make a shopping list. Gotta make
breakfast for 75 too. Last year I did mini apple muffins and mini
quiches, and it seems they have been requested for this year as well.
So many teeny crusts. So little time. What was I thinking?
Nancy DeMarco
Mason, NH
Jill
> Guess I ought to, at least, make a shopping list. Gotta make
> breakfast for 75 too. Last year I did mini apple muffins and mini
> quiches,
How abuot a Frittata / Tortilla instead -- similar ingredients as the
quiches but in big munching easy cooking size. And you get away with lots of
cheap potatoes ;)
LOTS of great herbs make is summat different.
--
regards
Jill Bowis
Domestic Poultry and Waterfowl Solutions
Herbaceous; Herb and Alpine Nursery
Seasonal Farm Food
http://www.kintaline.co.uk
Splash
I am NOT a purist, I'm a realist, LOL. With two jobs and a teenager
that can eat me out of house and home I do "shortcut chili" in my
slowcooker.
I brown my ground beef, toss it in the slowcooker with a can of chili
flavoured diced tomatoes and a can of undrained kidney beans. If I
have one, I'll throw in a can of corn. I leave it in the slow cooker
3 or four hours and it disappears as soon as I take the cover off.
Did I mention I have a teenaged son?
You can add chili spice if you like it hot but I never get the
chance. I personally like mushrooms in it but the OneThat Eats It All
isn't partial to them.
Bet you can tell I'm not from Texas AND I treat cooking as an evil
neccessity!
Splash - ducking and running
xgxw...@yahoo.com
> And it WILL have beans. Beans are cheap. We're feeding lots of
> people and trying to make a few bucks. Beans it is. :) Hadn't
> thought of corn. Hmmm... if the other club members don't like having
> added corn, maybe I won't need to make the chili next year. ;)
TVP/textured vegetable protein is another great, inexpensive way to
stretch stuff like chili. With all the spices and other stuff going
on, no one will ever know there's some health-food filler involved.
I've also thrown in cooked rice to bulk up quantity, but there are
many who will cry heresy about that, with reason. :)
> The person who made it two years ago insists it needs to cook for
> about 5 hours. I've never done that with chili. Do most people?
> (IIRC, it had a slight burned flavor from catching on - hard to keep
> that huge kettle stirred for 5 hours.)
I've found that all chili benefits from time to let the flavors meld,
either in the fridge overnight or simmered all day in a slow cooker so
it won't singe. But that may not be practical for vast quantities.
> Guess I ought to, at least, make a shopping list. Gotta make
> breakfast for 75 too. Last year I did mini apple muffins and mini
> quiches, and it seems they have been requested for this year as well.
> So many teeny crusts. So little time. What was I thinking?
>
> Nancy DeMarco
> Mason, NH
You've obviously done this before and probably know the shortcuts, but
you can use a biscuit cutter on crescent roll dough, pre-made pie
dough, phyllo sheets, even tortillas, for quick and easy crusts
pressed into muffin tins. If your tins are in good shape, you can
sometimes grease them up and dispense with crusts altogether. A friend
of mine made tiny scrambled huevos rancheros baked in those little
Tostitos Scoops. Yum!
Good luck!
Grey
Dr Corinne B Leek
wrote:
>On Wed, 08 Oct 2008 21:26:58 -0300, Dr Corinne B Leek
><cl...@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>Around here, if I make chili for a group, I have to keep the heat
>>down. :-(
>
>We found the same thing when we lived in MD.
Yeah. sigh.
>>However.
>>I'm a "damn Canuck" because I use kidney beans, carrots, green
>>peppers, mushrooms, onions (natch) and ground chicken. Sometimes
>>(horrors!) I add TVP to bulk up the ground chicken. ;-) Let it
>>simmer and sit and you never know the TVP is in there! LOL!
>
><frantically making hex signs> Oh My God!!!!!!!!!
You want a crucifix and some holy water to help with that? ;-)
>Do this in Texas and it's gonna be a lynching for sure. And the
>defense will be "a woman who'd make chilli like that needed killin'."
>;-)
>
>Sorry, I guess I'm a purist about it. But, then, I was trained by
>experts. :-)
ROFL!!
Well.
*I'd* never heard of chili without kidney beans until I got the Wick
Fowler/Carroll Shelby packs. I read the directions through a couple
times to make sure I was reading correctly.
Dr Corinne B Leek
>Bill Kambic <wka...@vic.com> wrote in
>news:qr1se4dnp3r8lcdgp...@4ax.com:
>
>> On Wed, 08 Oct 2008 21:26:58 -0300, Dr Corinne B Leek
>> <cl...@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>>>I'm a "damn Canuck" because I use kidney beans, carrots, green
>>>peppers, mushrooms, onions (natch) and ground chicken.
>
>Brave woman, 'fessing to the 'shrooms!
<shrug>
I love 'shrooms. They're a food group, aren't they? ;-)
>>>Sometimes
>>>(horrors!) I add TVP to bulk up the ground chicken. ;-) Let it
>>>simmer and sit and you never know the TVP is in there! LOL!
>
>TVP?
Texturized Vegetable Protein. IOW: Soy.
<WEG>
But, hey, sure stretches the meat and you really wouldn't know,
especially with the spices.
>> <frantically making hex signs> Oh My God!!!!!!!!!
>>
>> Do this in Texas and it's gonna be a lynching for sure.
>
>Should I ever find myself cooking in Texas, be assured I'll call the
>stuff in the pot "red stew" and not "chili". I might even add a few
>potato or other root veggies for effect.
Heh.
Good strategy! I'll borrow it!
>Y'all are making me hungry, and there's a lonely eggplant at home. I
>might throw that in the pot with some beans and sauce. Add a few wimpy
>stalks of celery. The ingredient that has my roommate nonplussed was
>sliced black olives...
>
>> Sorry, I guess I'm a purist about it. But, then, I was trained by
>> experts. :-)
>
>Told you it would give purists nightmares!
<Proudly, chest out>
*Mine* produced anti-hexing! 8-D
Bill Kambic
<cl...@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>><frantically making hex signs> Oh My God!!!!!!!!!
>You want a crucifix and some holy water to help with that? ;-)
Nope, got 'em. And a couple of dead chicken heads! :-)
>>Do this in Texas and it's gonna be a lynching for sure. And the
>>defense will be "a woman who'd make chilli like that needed killin'."
>>;-)
>>
>>Sorry, I guess I'm a purist about it. But, then, I was trained by
>>experts. :-)
>ROFL!!
>Well.
>*I'd* never heard of chili without kidney beans until I got the Wick
>Fowler/Carroll Shelby packs. I read the directions through a couple
>times to make sure I was reading correctly.
When I finally leared the True Way of Chilli it took some getting used
to. ;-)
We just cook the beans separately, then mix them in the individual
serving bowl. Add some chopped onion and shredded sharp cheddar
cheese and you're in business. If you go to South Texas you'll find a
lot of folks add Fritos or tortilla chips (or just take a regular
tortilla and tear it into small pieces). In a lot of fast food places
you can get a "Frito Pie." Take an individual serving bag of regular
Fritos and tear off the top. Then put in a scoop of chili and top
with beans and cheese. Eat it with a spoon!!!!!
I've heard claims that the Frito Pie was invented at the '82 Knoxville
World's Fair. In fact they were being served at the snack bar in
VT-28's hanger at NAS Corpus Christi at least as early as October,
1978 (I know this from personal knowledge :-) ).
You need to go to Terlingua for big chilli cook off. I think you'd
have a lot of fun!
Cricket
"Laurel Reddick" <lre...@nowhere.invalid> wrote in message
news:09tie45dac58kvhn8...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 05 Oct 2008 09:42:08 -0400, Eileen Morgan <eg...@ptd.net>
> wrote:
>
>>Laurel Reddick wrote:
>>> Just wondering about the rationale and thinking
>>> that the concept might be a bit iffy? i.e. patterning behaviour. Since
>>> you are a pro, what's your take?
>>
>>Well, I am not a pro and I don't play on on TV, but this mare had just
>>decided to try out bucking with great success when she unloaded her
>>rider (he does work to prevent behavior, FWIW, but this was just one of
>>those Oh Shit things). So she is presenting the bucking, has won an
>>argument with it, and now thinks this is a great tool. The bucking strap
>>in the round pen encourages her to try bucking to get her release again,
>>but it does not come off. She gets no release for the hard bucking
>>behavior, and until she is civilized again, she gets pressured (but not
>>hurt) by the strap. So in her mind after this session, bucking does not
>>equal release--stopping that nonsense equals release.
> I understand what you are saying, but I remain skeptical about the
> concept of the horse understanding release as being related to the
> bucking strap. I fear the horse will associate release with the
> removal of the saddle and may present problems with ever being able to
> use a rear cinch and tighten it to the point where it is useful and
> safe. It just goes contrary to everything I have ever heard, read or
> experienced personally concerning bucking and colt training. I have
> only seen round pen training with newly started colts done with
> absolute control of the horse's movement i.e. keep him busy turning
> and rating his speed to prevent bucking. I guess time will tell if
> his method is a good one. Thanks for the response.
> Laurel
It's worked (in various versions) for both my sister and I for years - may
or not be helped by both of us being very vocal - i.e., horse screws up, he
gets yelled at, he's good, he gets "good boy" - including when banging
around the round pen like an idiot. Also I'm fairly sure that while a
bucking strap isn't particularly comfy, it's less so when you're huffing and
puffing and bouncing around like a damn fool, so just the act of standing
still has got to feel, if not comfortable, at least less uncomfortable.
And bucking is a hell of a lot of work, so quitting in itself is a desirable
end when it isn't getting you anywhere anyhow.
Milk jugs full of rocks are my preferred method, though - those quit
irritating as soon as the motion stops.
Cricket
Cricket
"Joyce Reynolds-Ward" <j...@aracnet.com> wrote in message
news:cd5je457lq3dfto9l...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 05 Oct 2008 19:28:47 -0700, Laurel Reddick
> <lre...@nowhere.invalid> wrote:
>
> snip
>>I understand what you are saying, but I remain skeptical about the
>>concept of the horse understanding release as being related to the
>>bucking strap. I fear the horse will associate release with the
>>removal of the saddle and may present problems with ever being able to
>>use a rear cinch and tighten it to the point where it is useful and
>>safe. It just goes contrary to everything I have ever heard, read or
>>experienced personally concerning bucking and colt training. I have
>>only seen round pen training with newly started colts done with
>>absolute control of the horse's movement i.e. keep him busy turning
>>and rating his speed to prevent bucking. I guess time will tell if
>>his method is a good one. Thanks for the response.
>
>
> setting a bucky horse up to try the behavior with a skilled rider who
> can ride through the storm. You're not likely to hear much about
> this, though, because damn few colt starters can sit through that
> level of explosiveness. That's why preventativeness is such a big
> mantra. However, if you get one inclined to buck, it helps to be able
> to sit through it.
>
> Not every horse is a bucker, but of the ones who are, or who come from
> buck-happy bloodlines (like some of the Hancocks), letting the horse
> know that they can't win a bucking fight is crucial. It's more of an
> old-timey way of doing things than what is current, but yeah, the
> concept can exist and has existed. My old QH mare I had as a kid was
> one of those, with a wicked sunfishing buck. I was thoroughly
> indoctrinated that under no circumstances was I allowed to let myself
> get tossed off of her, as she would figure out that she could get rid
> of me. We worked through it, and she settled down as she aged.
>
> Mocha's not a bucker by nature, but she tossed the guy riding her to
> get her started, and she's a strong and powerful (though not very
> creative) bucker when she does do it.
Never owned a Hancock horse, but I've heard they can get some serious air,
with some real power and creativity behind it. ;>)
Definitely prefer the avoid bucking in the first place tactic, but second
place is making it A)a study in futility; and, B)miserable while they're
doing it.
Cricket
>
> jrw
Cricket
> On Mon, 06 Oct 2008 18:00:58 -0400, Ocean of Nuance
> <lizzardw...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
>
> snip
>
>>Well. Threatened rearing and bolting ensues when I ask him to move near
>>to walk him towards it. More threatened rearing/bolting. I ask him to
>>stand. Then one step closer and ask him to stand. Repeat several times
>>until we are within 2 meters. I make him stand there for a bit and he
>>is blowing and thinking about bolting the entire time. But he stood
>>there on a loose rein goddamit.
>
> Two-track him (leg yield) toward it with the bend toward the Scary
> Object, your leg on the other side from the Scary Object doing the
> work. Work him in a small circle near it, keep him moving until he
> decides that it's more work to fight about it than to just deal.
>
> If he spooks and spins, whirl him around and practice your reining
> spins until one of you gets too dizzy to move any more!
>
I landed my dumb ass in the emergency room that way once - horse got dizzy
and fell down, I was so sick with the flu, I couldn't do my usual
tuck-and-roll...yes, I had no business on the idiot, but he had just dumped
my kid. She says he must have thought I threw him on the ground, 'cause
he'd never been so well behaved as after that ...
> Don't forget "QUIT, DAMNIT!!!!"
I've owned horses who probably thought their name was "QUIT DAMNIT". Jack
is fairly sure his full name is "You Two-Bit Cross-Eyed Brass-Bound Dumb
Son-of-a-Bitch". I think he thinks it's a term of endearment...
Cricket
>
> jrw
Cricket
> On Tue, 07 Oct 2008 12:09:09 -0400, Eileen Morgan <eg...@ptd.net>
> wrote:
>
>>Joyce Reynolds-Ward wrote:
>>> Yeah. Agree with this. But then, my teen years was spent with a
>>> confirmed bucker that I actually didn't start coming off of until we'd
>>> gotten past the worst stuff and those were accidental bucks when she
>>> was much older and out of the habit of bucking at the slightest hint
>>> of a disagreement
>>
>>This is where I feel a bit of a puzzle about Rain. 90% of the time I
>>have spent on her it took the middle of my skill set to be safe,
>>teaching her something, and riding her in general. 9% of the time we had
>>some behavior over monsters of one kind or another and the ability it
>>took to ride her shot to the top strata of my skill set, but I remained
>>on the horse and worked out the issue safely for both of us. 1% of the
>>time she went right out of my skill set (ie, that ride where I came off
>>after the unexpected spook/rear/leap). If she were always on the verge
>>it would be easier to cope with, I think, but since it is a come and go
>>thing (unless we are provoking it like Sunday) I think it is a little
>>harder to feel secure.
>
> Rain sounds like some of the hotter QHs I've seen come through the
> barn--generally mares with a touch of racing blood in them. Same
> reactiveness, same sort of reliable 90% of the time but there's that
> 9% and 1% point as well.
>
> She may well mellow as she matures, though. Miss Mocha at 8 is not
> the hot horse she was at 5, and she tends to stop and think before
> reacting 99% of the time.
>
> It's that 1%--or the 25% of the time where she thinks she needs to be
> in charge...
I know a lady who *loves* Eternal Sun - Depth Charge (or is it Jet Deck?)
crosses...
I told her she needs to get a pilots license if she's gonna spend that much
time in the air.
Cricket
>
> jrw
Cricket
"Catja Pafort" <green_...@greenknight.org.uk.invalid> wrote in message
> Eileen Morgan wrote:
>
>> this mare had just
>> decided to try out bucking with great success when she unloaded her
>> rider (he does work to prevent behavior, FWIW, but this was just one of
>> those Oh Shit things). So she is presenting the bucking, has won an
>> argument with it, and now thinks this is a great tool. The bucking strap
>> in the round pen encourages her to try bucking to get her release again,
>> but it does not come off. She gets no release for the hard bucking
>> behavior, and until she is civilized again, she gets pressured (but not
>> hurt) by the strap. So in her mind after this session, bucking does not
>> equal release--stopping that nonsense equals release.
>
> that method. He just did not used to have the brainpower to stop and
> *think* - he'd just be reacting.
A lot of them don't stop and think - they stop when they're too out of
breath to keep going. *Then* they contemplate their sins. With the "no
sense of self-preservation" types especially, you really need it to be a
safe place. But if they *are* going to go suicidally stupid when freaked,
I'd rather they die in the round pen than on top of me fifty miles from
civilization.
Cricket
>
> Catja
>
> --
> writing blog @ http://beyond-elechan.livejournal.com
Cricket
"Melanie" <womba...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:qamGk.20358$kn5....@newsfe12.iad...
>
> "Splash" <s_pi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:0fc3e89d-7323-4960...@l42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> Thank goodness Sox was never a bucker. Still I'd prefer to be thrown
> clear by a bucker than have a rearer topple over on me. Thankfully
> Sox is neither!
>
> I think it's a wise decision to let the trainer iron this issue out.
> There are folks who are good at "sticking" a buck. I'm kind of at the
> mind that if the horse can't unseat you he'll quit trying sooner
> rather than later. Still, I'd prefer it was someone else. In my
> dotage I'd rather not break bones.
>
> Splash
>
> Bucking and rearing is where my trainer and I disagree. I have told her
> that if Fire ever reared it would be the last time I ever rode him. She
> told me rearing isn't all that bad and she's ridden a lot of them and
> horses only topple over if their riders pull them over.
She is absolutely, positively, dangerously wrong. And I very rarely flat out
declare someone is wrong, but in this case, she is.
It's very rare (it isn't comfortable to go crashing down from ten feet up in
the air onto a saddle), but there are those who go up and over in one
smooth, intentional motion. And a few who'll try to continue to roll on
what's left of you once they're down there.
Those horses are called "Alpo", as far as I'm concerned.
Cricket
>Since I've seen a horse topple on my sister and break her femur when she
>was 14 (maybe she did, maybe she didn't cause it) and another flip over on
>my niece (that time I know she didn't have contact because my sister was
>holding the beast so V could get on and let go when she thought), I have no
>tolerance for it. She even jokes about the times she can see he's thinking
>about it when she's pushed him a bit too far and he's frustrated. Right now
>I'm going through a phase where the change in weather has brought out his
>inner puke. For the past week just about every ride has included some
>explosion at the application of the leg. I know he's annoyed about the leg
>and I would prefer to start using Mr. Whip on him squeeze, kick, spank
>style but my trainer hates whips so she has me using my leg and kicking
>harder as he explodes in bucking and kicking. That said, I have brought out
>the whip without her input and found it much easier to bring him into line
>because the punishment doesn't involve *more* leg and reward is still less
>leg. She'd be apalled but what she doesn't know about won't hurt her (I
>know all you trainers out there are cringing at that attitude ;-)) and I
>had to do something because her method just didn't seem to be working.
>
> Melanie who pines for the Princess
> Princess Pony who is doing her best to get sent home
> Blonde Ambition who thinks he shouldn't have to suffer humans if he
> doesn't want to
>
>
Nancy...@gmail.com
committee involved?
I browned some bacon, tossed in chopped onion and green pepper,
chopped garlic, parsley and celery from the garden, dumped in 6 pounds
of ground tomatoes, about a gallon of water, lots of chili powder and
cumin, some salt, and several kinds of dried beans (after soaking over
night). And I chopped up all the home-grown steak I had left over
from last night's barbecue and threw that in.
There's 18 lbs of ground beef at the neighbor's, and the club has
decided to have a chili cooking party tonight. (Hence the ground beef
not being here.) They'll brown the ground beef and throw it in, and
probably mess with the seasoning. It'll end up hotter than I like,
'cause they're going to do it at a Texan's house. :)
I'm a bit attached to my pot of chili. Hope they don't burn it
(again).
Nancy DeMarco
Mason, NH
Cricket
"Emily Brooks" <sun...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:yonGk.42726$XT1....@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
>
> "J. Z. M." <clayri...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:C50EEE2D.493DB%clayri...@comcast.net...
>>
>> I also lunge them in and out of the canter for along time before I ask
>> for
>> it under saddle. I discourage lunge act up tactics. Which brings me to
>> another pet peave, I hate to see horses acting much as idiots on lunge
>> lines. WTF? Where is the rider discouraging this sort of behavior?
>> Standing
>> there ho-humming while the horse bucks, farts, and tears around. NO. This
>> is
>> not acceptable behavior. Snarling, and reprimanding them, bringing them
>> under control on the ground makes your life easier, the horse learns
>> behavior that is desirable, and does not **think** about unruly behavior
>> as
>>
>> Jody
>>
> I agree, Jody. Lunging is training not play time. Get your manners in line
> and work, horse!
My sister cuts them loose into the round pen, and encourages them to buck,
kick, fart around and genearlly have a good time.
Then they get dressed...
The difference between how you may act loose in there, and how you may act
when suited up, become very clear very quickly. After a few days of getting
their britches warmed if "Quit!" doesn't do it, and a good "Ah ah!!" will
bring them literally down on all fours like they've been pole-axed.
Cricket
>
> Emily
>
>
Catja Pafort
> Catja Pafort wrote:
> >> Well. Threatened rearing and bolting ensues when I ask him to move near
> >> it. I try that for a few minutes with no headway.
> >
> > Fun. Is this a new behaviour, or has he shown it before and you've never
> > tackled it?
>
> He has shown this behavior before a few times..when the roto-router guy
> brought in his big white hose, once when there were some deer near the
> tree line (though not at other times there were deer there), when the
> glittery streamers were put up for the folks to practice sport horse
> versatility. Together, these instances are a vanishingly small fraction
> of the total amount of saddle time so it's churlish of me to complain
> actually.
If you have a problem of this magnitude - not being able to lead your
horse past a static, harmless object - then I would consider it
something that needs to be addressed.
What if he takes objection to the judge's booth at the next show? The
flowers? The people who warm up their horses, chuck the rug over the
railings, ride, and put the rug back over their horse's kidneys to cool
down?
This could be an interesting winter for you.
<snip>
> Those sound go but I'm going to do the "bend and send" That Eileen
> talked about if it happens again. I have a strong feeling that is going
> to work.
You know him, but I've always felt it was a good idea to be aware of my
options. I've been in trouble once or twice for choosing the wrong
strategy to deal with a problem, I like to know what else I can try.
> > Your next challenge, and dressage training be damned, is to solve this.
> > You now know it's a problem; go and fill that hole in his training.
>
> While it is definitely a problem, since it is confined to something like
> 0.000001 % of my in hand and riding time, I don't know if I can justify
> working on it for great lengths of time.
For me, not being able to walk a horse past an ordinary object speaks of
a *major* hole in his training, and while you might be able to mask the
problem or avoid it, sooner or later you'll be in a situation where you
have to depend on his obedience - and it won't be there.
It's very easy to discover this the hard way with a new situation,
particularly if a horse is generally laid-back and obedient, but unlike
deer or contractors, rugs over the railing are something you can set up
and practice easily. You only need to spend a couple of minutes every
time you work him *if* you have a plan and you're doing it
intelligently. Setting him a challenge he can master is good for your
relationship and makes the next challenge all the easier, so it's not
wasted time.
> Maybe if it gets worse. But
> if the mirror issue is related, he is very much improved. Also, of the
> incidents, the very worse was the first - the roto-router thing. The
> deer and glitter streamers were not as bad though the throw rug was
> almost as bad.
Things that are outside your control (deer, horses galloping, noisy
machinery) are one thing - static objects that you can check out are
another. The first category might always be a problem, because they're
either threatening or unpredictable and uncontrollable, but the second
category are things you can fix.
> > You can say a lot about Crumble, but there never was an arena with a
> > spot he didn't want to pass. Not even that one.
>
> That's great.
It was. And it was a lot of hard work, too.
> I had a conversation today with my trainer and the bottom line is that
> he is just a bit flighty for lack of enough different experiences. And
> now that he's 11, that's likely not going to improve much.
Who told you that you weren't allowed to teach him anything new? You own
that horse, right? So if he's lacking varied experiences, whose fault is
that? And don't give me 'he's too old' - eleven isn't old, and certainly
not too old to learn. Crumble certainly wasn't too old to to shed a
whole lot of behaviours, including the tendency to panic at the
slightest mental pressure, and if *he* could change, your horse can
learn a few more tricks, too.
Don't hide behind excuses. Don't say 'this is such a rare thing that I
can ignore it.' You were, at least for the time being, out of control
and you had no tools to regain it. That, to me, sounds like a problem
that needs to be addressed, and not by isolating the horse from anything
that could possibly set it off, because eventually you'll end up with a
horse that spooks at a line in the sand where once a pole had lain.
Jill
> What if he takes objection to the judge's booth at the next show?
Sharon does not take P anywhere.
but I agree its a really important situation to address anyway.
>
>> I had a conversation today with my trainer and the bottom line is
>> that he is just a bit flighty for lack of enough different
>> experiences. And now that he's 11, that's likely not going to
>> improve much.
>
> Who told you that you weren't allowed to teach him anything new? You
> own that horse, right? So if he's lacking varied experiences, whose
> fault is that? And don't give me 'he's too old' - eleven isn't old,
> and certainly not too old to learn.
Absolutely
I know plenty of over 20 year old equines who have learnt LOTS, including
new ways of life, new skills, and new experiences.
John Hasler
> I had a conversation today with my trainer and the bottom line is that he
> is just a bit flighty for lack of enough different experiences. And now
> that he's 11, that's likely not going to improve much.
Who the hell told you that? If it was your trainer fire his ass.
--
John Hasler Boarding, Lessons, Training
jo...@dhh.gt.org Hay, Jumps, Cavallox
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, WI USA
Ocean of Nuance
(snip)
> What if he takes objection to the judge's booth at the next show? The
> flowers? The people who warm up their horses, chuck the rug over the
> railings, ride, and put the rug back over their horse's kidneys to cool
> down?
Until they straighten out the judging at least, my interest in showing
is less that zero.
> This could be an interesting winter for you.
>
> <snip>
>
>> Those sound go but I'm going to do the "bend and send" That Eileen
>> talked about if it happens again. I have a strong feeling that is going
>> to work.
>
> You know him, but I've always felt it was a good idea to be aware of my
> options. I've been in trouble once or twice for choosing the wrong
> strategy to deal with a problem, I like to know what else I can try.
The reason I think it will work is in all these cases, he was compliant
even though I didn't have all his attention. In the roto-router
episode, I asked him to spin rather than rear and he complied quickly
and twice. He has yet to be uncompliant in a scary situation when it
matters.
>>> Your next challenge, and dressage training be damned, is to solve this.
>>> You now know it's a problem; go and fill that hole in his training.
>> While it is definitely a problem, since it is confined to something like
>> 0.000001 % of my in hand and riding time, I don't know if I can justify
>> working on it for great lengths of time.
>
> For me, not being able to walk a horse past an ordinary object speaks of
> a *major* hole in his training, and while you might be able to mask the
> problem or avoid it, sooner or later you'll be in a situation where you
> have to depend on his obedience - and it won't be there.
>
> It's very easy to discover this the hard way with a new situation,
> particularly if a horse is generally laid-back and obedient, but unlike
> deer or contractors, rugs over the railing are something you can set up
> and practice easily. You only need to spend a couple of minutes every
> time you work him *if* you have a plan and you're doing it
> intelligently. Setting him a challenge he can master is good for your
> relationship and makes the next challenge all the easier, so it's not
> wasted time.
Well, in that vein, I thought of doing the sport horse versatility stuff
if it would help him calm him brain. But it is equally likely to
trouble him so I'm not going to do it if that is the case when the issue
is confined to 0.000001% of my riding and ground work time.
I'm going to ask my instructor about it.
>> Maybe if it gets worse. But
>> if the mirror issue is related, he is very much improved. Also, of the
>> incidents, the very worse was the first - the roto-router thing. The
>> deer and glitter streamers were not as bad though the throw rug was
>> almost as bad.
>
> Things that are outside your control (deer, horses galloping, noisy
> machinery) are one thing - static objects that you can check out are
> another. The first category might always be a problem, because they're
> either threatening or unpredictable and uncontrollable, but the second
> category are things you can fix.
Well, first, the hose wasn't loud. It was large and white and snaky. :0
I'm going to see what my instructor thinks about trying sport horse
versatility with him.
>
>>> You can say a lot about Crumble, but there never was an arena with a
>>> spot he didn't want to pass. Not even that one.
>> That's great.
>
>
> It was. And it was a lot of hard work, too.
>
>> I had a conversation today with my trainer and the bottom line is that
>> he is just a bit flighty for lack of enough different experiences. And
>> now that he's 11, that's likely not going to improve much.
>
> Who told you that you weren't allowed to teach him anything new?
No. There is a distinction between his general tendency and being able
to teach him something new. The latter is always doable. The former
determines how easy it will be.
You own
> that horse, right? So if he's lacking varied experiences, whose fault is
> that? And don't give me 'he's too old' - eleven isn't old, and certainly
> not too old to learn. Crumble certainly wasn't too old to to shed a
> whole lot of behaviours, including the tendency to panic at the
> slightest mental pressure, and if *he* could change, your horse can
> learn a few more tricks, too.
>
> Don't hide behind excuses. Don't say 'this is such a rare thing that I
> can ignore it.' You were, at least for the time being, out of control
> and you had no tools to regain it. That, to me, sounds like a problem
> that needs to be addressed, and not by isolating the horse from anything
> that could possibly set it off, because eventually you'll end up with a
> horse that spooks at a line in the sand where once a pole had lain.
No actually he was always compliant enough in each situation, enough so
that I could safely handle it for him and me. He complied when I asked
him to spin rather than rear. He eventually complied in the deer
situation. The glitter streamers, my instructor needed more time to
crack that nut though he was greatly improved over several days of
working in hand and mounted. The mirror situation is pretty much gone.
but that is an aggression issue (self loathing) I think, not a spooking
issue.
I did send up the white flag on the throw rug,though. Have to admit
that. But I think bend and send is going to work for that and its ilk.
At least that's what I'm going to try if it happens again. And if
that doesn't work, I'm going to try some of the other suggestions folks
kindly wrote in response.
Maybe doing sport horse versatility will help him.
Thanks,
sharon
Ocean of Nuance
> Sharon evidently wrote:
>> I had a conversation today with my trainer and the bottom line is that he
>> is just a bit flighty for lack of enough different experiences. And now
>> that he's 11, that's likely not going to improve much.
>
> Who the hell told you that? If it was your trainer fire his ass.
That was in reference to his natural tendency. She was not saying he
can't learn or that it can't be addressed. I certainly didn't take it
that way. He can learn anything. The question is how easily/quickly
will it happen.
sharon
Jill
The more he does the better he will become.
There are times when less is not more.
eg...@enter.net
wrote:
Talk about the Power of Negative Thinking. I've had horses get
seriously reschooled at every age possible. Moonlight didn't even come
to me and start learning ANYTHING about being out on trail, jumping,
doing XC, dressage, etc until she was late in her 9th year. At 11
there is no bar to his learning lots, and no reason he can't do it in
a reasonable time frame.
Eileen Morgan
The Mare's Nest
http://www.themaresnest.com
Ocean of Nuance
I agree. Nobody, including my trainer would disagree.
I think horses have different levels of bravery let's say that are
controlled, in part, by their experiences. They are not all exactly the
same.
This should not be confused with the fact that they are all learn the
same stuff. Also, recognition of these differences does not rise to the
level of negative thinking, at least not with me or my trainer I would
bet. She has dealt with more stuff than Pete would think about throwing
at her.
I had been commenting to my instructor that I didn't know if these
incidents were normal or not and that I thought he wasn't particularly
brave. She did not bring this up and nobody made any comments about
limitations on his ability to learn anything.
sharon
RPM1
I used to ride with a very slight woman who just wuvved her great big tank of a horse. She looooooved his color and he was a flashy looking sort; if you like that sort of thing. He had this awful habit of "spooking" dropping his shoulder and ducking out form under her at will. Due to cancer surgery she had very little muscle strength in one arm/shoulder. He figured that out and he used it to his advantage. One day he ditched her and she broke her spine. She recovered and just wouldn't give up on the horse. She tried switching to a western saddle and used great big bits and all sorts of contraptions in order to make the horse/rider relationship work.
Occasionally, I'd get on him and TRY to make him do his nonsense. He didn't. He just wouldn't. Smart horse. <evil grin>
What's my point? Well, sometimes when you see a toxic combination you do what you have to do to make sure they head on down the road and don't come-a-cropper on your property [again I'm not saying that this is the case]. It just reminded me of this horse and rider pair in the past.
RCM
Sue Leopold
> another pet peave, I hate to see horses acting much as idiots on lunge
> lines. WTF? Where is the rider discouraging this sort of behavior?
> Standing there ho-humming while the horse bucks, farts, and tears
> around. NO. This is not acceptable behavior. Snarling, and
> reprimanding them, bringing them under control on the ground
> makes your life easier, the horse learns behavior that is desirable,
> and does not **think** about unruly behavior as the norm.
Remind me to never bring you to a big "AA" hunter show. You would go
crazy with the horses on double lunge lines, careening about their
grooms who are chasing them to "prep" them for their classes. It is not
only non-productive, it is flat out dangerous. Well, it does, if it
goes on long enough (and it can be very long as the horses and ponies
get fitter and fitter) it produces the winning trip. Ugh, double ugh.
Lunging is training and should be treated as such. Otherwise it is just
a good way to tear up horses' joints. I have nothing against allowing a
young 'un to stretch out and move on the lungeline, but I detest the
current practice to treat the lungeline as an exercise machine rather
than a training aid./
With a youngster you need to get on and ride them around the venue, get
them acclimated to their surroundings and relaxed. *Not* wear them out.
Rant over. :-)
Ocean of Nuance
(snip)
> With a youngster you need to get on and ride them around the venue, get
> them acclimated to their surroundings and relaxed. *Not* wear them out.
>
> Rant over. :-)
Have these folks considered sport horse versatility? :)
http://www.foundation2success.com/Versatility.htm
s
Jill
eeee----- its Posh Parelli
;)
Sue Leopold
> eg...@enter.net wrote:
> > On Oct 13, 11:33 am, Ocean of Nuance <lizzardwomanRM...@nc.rr.com>
> > wrote:
> >> John Hasler wrote:
> >>> Sharon evidently wrote:
> >>>> I had a conversation today with my trainer and the bottom line is that he
> >>>> is just a bit flighty for lack of enough different experiences. And now
> >>>> that he's 11, that's likely not going to improve much.
> >>> Who the hell told you that? If it was your trainer fire his ass.
> >> That was in reference to his natural tendency. She was not saying he
> >> can't learn or that it can't be addressed. I certainly didn't take it
> >> that way. He can learn anything. The question is how easily/quickly
> >> will it happen.
> >
> > Talk about the Power of Negative Thinking. I've had horses get
> > seriously reschooled at every age possible. Moonlight didn't even come
> > to me and start learning ANYTHING about being out on trail, jumping,
> > doing XC, dressage, etc until she was late in her 9th year. At 11
> > there is no bar to his learning lots, and no reason he can't do it in
> > a reasonable time frame.
>
> I agree. Nobody, including my trainer would disagree.
>
> I think horses have different levels of bravery let's say that are
> controlled, in part, by their experiences. They are not all exactly the
> same.
If I am interpreting Eileen's posts about Rain and Tony, then
it jives with Donal's basic principle - "go forward horse and
move your feet" *Always* forward. Then use the bend away
to get the horse's eye off the scary stuff and desensitize.
It is not a question of bravery - Choc is a lion to the jumps
but he is ultra-careful and gets distracted by stupid stuff
like shadows, ground terrain and that damned pile of
broken jumps by the arena.
Donal's basic premise is the horse must be forward in
his/her mind. When they think backwards (he calls
it backpedaling) then you are basically S.O.L.
It is easier with a horse like Cruiser, who is naturally
non-reactive. Then again, that leads to other problems.
Yesterday he was having a grand time playing with the
new horses over the paddock fence. After a couple of
hours he decided it would be more fun to be in with
them and casually hopped over the fence. The new
farrier (who is awesome btw) stared and said "I
can't believe he just did that." Meanwhile Donal
was doubled over with laughter. "I guess he was
bored." He called Wilmer who said "I am coming to
feed them lunch outdoors; he will stay in when he
has his dinner." Cruiser, who lives to eat, agreed
with him and stayed in his place.
They are all individuals and they need to be treated
as such.
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
My old Sparkle mare didn't know about leads until she was 8-9 years
old--I forget, it's been a few years. Same age for her first bit (she
was broke in a mechanical hackamore).
jrw
Ocean of Nuance
(snip)
> Rain sounds like some of the hotter QHs I've seen come through the
> barn--generally mares with a touch of racing blood in them. Same
> reactiveness, same sort of reliable 90% of the time but there's that
> 9% and 1% point as well.
>
> She may well mellow as she matures, though. Miss Mocha at 8 is not
> the hot horse she was at 5, and she tends to stop and think before
> reacting 99% of the time.
>
> It's that 1%--or the 25% of the time where she thinks she needs to be
> in charge...
Will that 1% go away?
Pete is fine 99.99999% of the time.
But he has his moments not just with me but with my trainer...
- Last November (Thanksgiving time), she needed about 20 minutes to get
him to stop trying to exit the area when there was camper and some
portable dog pens (with 2-3 dogs) near the arena. These were never
there before. I was auditing that day. She worked him both mounted and
unmounted, in the arena and outside the arena near the camper/pens,
trying to get him to get his mind on work and start working. She got it
after the 20 minutes. I'm not sure I would have been able to do the same.
- I saw her take 20-30 minutes, mounted and unmounted, to try to get him
to accept the glitter streamers. Then I saw her ask him to simply stand
for a few minutes about 25 feet(!) away from them but in his sight.
This required some time before he could do it.
- She later took several training sessions in my absence, mounted and
unmounted, to get him to accept the damn glitter streamers. I rode him
after these sessions and he was greatly improved but still needed more work.
- He lost him mind IN TURNOUT when he noticed the bat box near his
pasture. No rider involved. This incident was written up in an
article. :)
My question... in four years, do many/most horses experience about 5
such incidents like Pete and with both their ammy owner and an
experienced trainer and with no rider whatsoever? Maybe it's about
average for all I know. Maybe it's better than average. Maybe the only
difference between Pete and many other horses is that I mention these
things. Maybe most horses would have reacted to the large roto-router
hose, I don't know. That's why I'm asking.
I am told Pete is well within the normal range and is no six-sigma
horse. So my initial guess about it was wrong.
Like I said earlier, at 0.000001% of the time, I really can't complain,
especially if it's average or better than most horses out there.
But I'd like to help him over that last small bit. I would like to try
him with cows if that would help. I don't know what the hell I'm doing
but I think it would be fun for him.
sharon
Hunter Hampton
<lizzardw...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
>
>Will that 1% go away?>
Not as long as Pete is a horse.
>
>Pete is fine 99.99999% of the time.>
Count your blessings and be glad you didn't buy Robbie instead.
Hunter