Advice needed - ulcer et al?
hpjeannie
and ultrasound. Blood test came back negative for Cushing's, but she
still has an elevated heart rate, is not gaining weight, and is only
interested in food when on an anti-inflammatory (the Cushing's test
shot really perked her up).
Vet suspects one of several things...pneumonia, ulcer, internal
abcess, or cancer. The first three are treatable...the abcess would
be very expensive to treat (a month's worth of meds totaling probably
$700-ish) but she does know of another 30-year-old horse who was
treated for that successfully a couple of years ago and is doing well.
I made a tentative appointment at Davis for Monday and the barn owner
does transport, so the actual logistics aren't a problem.
The problem I'm having is money. Even if she has something that's
treatable, and we pay for the diagnosis and treatment, she's still
elderly and something else may crop up. On the other hand, if we
treat and she's healthy and happy for another x years, who am I to
take that away from her?
This would be a bit easier if my husband's car's transmission hadn't
acted up today, dammit.
Any advice out there?
Jeannie
Bill Kambic
Old horses are like old people: they're "high maintenance."
We don't euthanize old people (at least not yet) but it is an option
for an old horse. Particularly if money is an issue.
I know that my comments are not what you wanted to hear, but sometimes
a defined ending is more humane that a deteriorating life.
Good luck in your decision.
hpjeannie
Thanks, Bill, I understand what you're saying. Fortunately between my
initial post and now, my husband has stated he's in favor of taking
her to Davis so we can make a more informed decision.
Not that I needed his approval ;) but he works full time and I'm only
part-time, so it's nice that he's not against it. :)
I think I'll just have to press the vet at Davis to give me an honest
"likely quality of life" estimation.
Any real-life experiences out there with this kind of thing, though?
Jeannie
betsey
>
> Jeannie- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Hi Jeannie--
I don't know if this will help or not...but a couple of years ago, i
had to make the decision to euthanize my older Tb gelding. He was in
his early 20's.
He was losing weight, was not interested in food really, and had
ceased being interested in people. this was a very social horse.
this all occurred in the span of 4-6 weeks. not good. We did blood
work, which came back screwy enough to say "this is going to take more
money, more testing and probably not a good outcome". I had a younger
horse (Macho), and board out my horse(s)...not my own farm. Once upon
a time, I probably would have ran in with the credit card hollering
"CHARGE". however, I took a hard look at Dink, and recognized that
for the last almost ten years, he had been a very expensive pasture
pet...and that to keep him alive would likely be throwing good money
after bad, and just as importantly, he had stopped enjoying life. My
vet completely agreed with me...saying that all i was likely to end up
doing would be to find out exactly WHY i was euthanizing, but not that
it would change things.
So, I did what i still feel was ultimatley best for my horse, and
myself.
But, I think sometimes you need to find out what is going on. Dink's
bloodwork said something really bad was going on. that was enough for
me.
Again, I don't think this helps you at all. I do agree 100% with
Bill. A defined ending is a blessing.
redbranch
I agree with Bill. It's no fun seeing them grow old....but it's
worse when they start to have problems that limit their quality of
life and everything we can do for them is simply putting off the
inevitable. I'm looking at a similar decision in the not so distant
future with my oldest. He's slowed down dramatically in the last
six months. Still getting around, and enjoys a gallop here and there
and is eating fine, but the melanomas are on the increase (hundreds of
'em). There are so many around his anus that I'm not sure how he
manages to pass manure...some are two inches across and the entire
area is covered....and his sheath is filled with large melanomas as
well, to the point that cleaning is impossible unless he drops, and
even then, getting up inside won't happen. While there are measures
that will keep him going when things get worse, at 30 I am not going
to put him through that. When his quality of life starts to sink to
the point I can see he's no longer enjoying hanging around, I will put
him down. It will hurt like hell...I've had that horse for 22
years... but I will let him go when he says he's ready.
At some point we all have to ask ourselves the question: Are we
keeping the horse alive for the horse's sake or for ours? And
sometimes finances do come into play, especially with the elder
critters.
As Bill said, good luck with your decision.
Sharon Potter
Red Branch
Una
back in 2000, which is why she is nominally 29 now, but she may well
be far older than that. We've been getting in more riding lately,
and really enjoying life, although she hasn't been keen to run for
the past year or so. Then a few weeks ago she lost a molar, her
first lost tooth, and she hasn't really come back from that. Now
she is not interested in anything much (not even food) and she is
noticeably stiff in her pelvis, not keen to go for a walk although
it helps her loosen up (so it must still hurt); losing weight, and
especially losing muscle mass along her topline. Right around the
time her molar went, she also started hitting her hinds with the
other hind foot while walking. Putting bell boots on prevents the
hits from cutting her, but doesn't fix anything. There isn't much
I can do for her except give her bute and, when she is comfortable,
pamper her as much as she likes with brushing and treats. *Maybe*
she slipped and pulled a muscle, and the stiffness and hitting and
reluctance to move and muscle wasting will pass. But that is not
very likely. And if there is a GI problem the bute may well make
it worse.
As others have said already, with an elderly horse in decline, you
can spend a lot of money on diagnosis but in the end you still have
an elderly horse in decline.
Una
Tara
news:280f6284-dd5e-4699...@d10g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
>
> The problem I'm having is money. Even if she has something that's
> treatable, and we pay for the diagnosis and treatment, she's still
> elderly and something else may crop up. On the other hand, if we
> treat and she's healthy and happy for another x years, who am I to
> take that away from her?
>
> This would be a bit easier if my husband's car's transmission hadn't
> acted up today, dammit.
>
> Any advice out there?
Do what you can afford to do, don't second-guess yourself and don't let
anyone beat you up about any decision you make since they aren't walking in
your shoes. Personally, I'd rather a pet go when I'm there and the ending is
controlled vs the unexpected, prolonged or painful death where I didn't get
to say goodbye.
Tara
JJ
> Any advice out there?
>
> Jeannie
Listen to your heart *and* your head. Only the two together will help
you. My Comet is 28 and I watch her for every little change in her
attitude and body condition. Fortunately for me <knocking wood>, she
is still doing very well. She did loose a bit of weight a couple of
years ago and I've only just now found a feeding program that has
managed to put a few (very few but it's something) pounds back on her.
But, she's perky and sound for riding and is enjoying life. I'm very
blessed. I think the fact that your DH is OK with going to Davis is
wonderful. So, maybe take advantage of that. Pressing the vet for
some "hard answers" is a great idea. However, some are reluctant to
give certain types of answers because they don't want to "influence"
owners into any specific decision.
But I suspect you'll have much more information and will be better
able to decide where you need to go. I wish you the best, please let
us know how you're doing and Novia too. I wish you the best outcome
and peace with whatever decision you have to make and I know that you
have Novia's best interest at heart so the right decision usually
follows right behind. Best, JJ
Emily Brooks
lucky enough to have them for a long time, we get to make these end-of-life
choices.
Good luck with Novia and whatever you decide.
Emily
Dr Corinne B Leek
I'll echo the above and add that another consideration that none have
mentioned is that we're heading into winter.
It's the hardest season and can an older horse make it comfortably
through winter? It's hard on them. And harder on some than others.
Sometimes it's best to let them go before they have to face the
weather.
Just adding fodder to the fire of thoughts.
Best wishes on whatever decision.
Corinne & Crazy Canuck Crew, sending the head clearing Fizz...
--
*** Conserve Energy: Laughter is easier than Anger!
*** cl...@ns.sympatico.ca
Cricket
"Dr Corinne B Leek" <cl...@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:28qqf59ksp32jb25u...@4ax.com...
What she said. I seriously considered putting Scout down this fall, as he
was looking pretty ragged (though for some reason he always does in late
summer/early fall, and then looks better later, for no reason that I'm
responsible for). Then, after the great stuck-in-the-feeder episode, he
looked so much better I figured he can hang around for a while.
Who knows, maybe despite treating regularly, he had sand, and shook it loose
with his feeder calisthentics. Regardless, once you've done anything
"special", you've given them extra time (since they would have died in the
wild, or even with lesser care), and no one should ever feel bad about
deciding that the postponed end is best timed now.
I tend to put mine down in the fall, if it's an old age issue - they get one
last hurrah in beautiful weather, no bugs, still got green grass - and they
miss another cold winter. But that's in large part a situational thing...if
I lived where winters weren't so nasty, or had the money, and the place (and
a horse who would tolerate it) to put them in a weather tight barn for the
winter, I might hang in a little longer. The horse doesn't care. In the
nature of "horse", they'd have lasted 'til they couldn't out-run the
predators...anything past that is a gift we've already given them.
Cricket
cindi
>
> Any advice out there?
>
> Jeannie
Hi Jeannie,
What I do now for suspected ulcers is treat for 3 days with
Ulcerguard, the full tube. It's the same dose as Gastroguard but you
don't need a prescription to get it. If the horse has an ulcer, she
will be remarkably different on the third day of treatment that it
will be very obvious. Three doses are about $100. Each time I've
done that, I've been lucky and it has turned out to be ulcers, so I
either then ask my vet for the Gastroguard or just keep treating with
the Ulcerguard. A month is the standard treatment but it's $35 or so
per day.
When I took my mare to Davis for dx and got ulcer and probably cancer,
I spent a few thousdand on just the workup. They told me she'd be
dead soon. However that was years ago and she's still here and very
healthy. I am reluctant to take horses to Davis anymore (and she's
not the only one I took!) because it's so expensive. I have basically
decided my horses will make it with my local farm vet or they won't...
I can't do Davis anymore.
I've had a few pneumonia cases that we've treated on the farm, it
hasn't been hard to diagnose or treat at all. We've never had to have
a chest xray. ??? The vet just listens to their breathing and does a
few manipulations to figure out where the problem is (covers their
nostrils, squeezes their trachea, I forget what all.)
I don't know anything about an internal abscess though.
I wish you the best of luck! The good thing about going to Davis is
you feel like a celebrity surrounded by several very attentive people
all trying to help your horse. But it's insanely expensive.
take care
cindi
hpjeannie
> In the
> nature of "horse", they'd have lasted 'til they couldn't out-run the
> predators...anything past that is a gift we've already given them.
Thank you, Cricket and everyone else who wrote both publicly and
privately.
I got to the ranch today after much trepidation...and Novia looked
pretty normal to me--a little thin, but eating, drinking, and
wandering around. She picked up all four feet to be cleaned, enjoyed
her grooming and belly scratch, and gut sounded active. She seems a
tiny bit depressed, but aren't we all at advanced ages? She's growing
a nice shiny winter coat and her feet are terrific.
I did another phone recheck with the vet (the other one in that
office, older and with a bit more experience) and decided NOT to take
her to Davis. If it's an ulcer or internal abcess, the treatment is
close to the same (a month on Gastrogard, which is too much $$), and
why pay for an exam, an ultrasound, likely an endoscope, and transport
to find out something that I can try treating on my own without
endangering the horse? Her breathing sounds perfect, so it's likely
not pneumonia, and if it's cancer, it will become evident anyway.
So I'm going to get some Ultragard (thanks, Cindi) and use full tubes
(instead of the Bute that's been making her feel good but is rough on
stomachs) for a week, see if it makes a difference, and if so keep
using it at the maintenance dose for a month or so. She may have
developed an ulcer during her hay-free months after her choke episode,
and the trailer ride in March could have aggravated it. She's been
back on hay since then, but if an ulcer had already developed, it's
been sitting there stewing instead of being treated. And her on-
again, off-again eating habits seem to point that way.
So, crisis averted for the nonce. But we all did have "the
conversation" and got that squared away...the BO and the buddy's owner
both know that if she goes downhill again and won't come around, we'll
be making arrangements for the vet and a big hole on the hill under
the live oaks (BO insists, and it's legal here). And I'm now ready
for that, too, and thank you all for your support and sound reasoning
on that score.
I really knew it was the right decision when I felt so much relief
after cancelling the Davis appointment. I really didn't want to put
her through all that, and her buddy would have been frantic here
waiting for her return.
Onward!
Jeannie
Tara
I really knew it was the right decision when I felt so much relief
after cancelling the Davis appointment. I really didn't want to put
her through all that, and her buddy would have been frantic here
waiting for her return.
Onward!
Jeannie
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Good luck, hopefully the ulcergard does the trick!
Tara
Sue Leopold
> On Nov 13, 8:00 am, "Cricket" <cricketc...@wmis.net> wrote:
> > In the
> > nature of "horse", they'd have lasted 'til they couldn't out-run the
> > predators...anything past that is a gift we've already given them.
>
> So I'm going to get some Ultragard (thanks, Cindi) and use full tubes
> (instead of the Bute that's been making her feel good but is rough on
> stomachs) for a week, see if it makes a difference, and if so keep
> using it at the maintenance dose for a month or so. She may have
> developed an ulcer during her hay-free months after her choke episode,
> and the trailer ride in March could have aggravated it. She's been
> back on hay since then, but if an ulcer had already developed, it's
> been sitting there stewing instead of being treated. And her on-
> again, off-again eating habits seem to point that way.
Nina was able to get Gastroguard for Cruiser at a very, very good
price from Entirely Pets. Hopefully she will weigh in with the exact
procedure she used to get all the discounts. You would need
a script for the GG but they have Ulcerguard as well if you can't
get a script.
We did a month of GG with Cruiser but not the whole month
at the full dose. He was not overtly symptomatic of having
ulcers, just NQR and was cribbing esp. around mealtimes.
(No loss of appetite but the saying goes "Never get between
an Irish horse and his food" so maybe the ISH appetite had
something to do with that. ;-)) Our vet said try two weeks at
the full dose, then cut to half dose for the next two weeks.
We also put him on "SmartGut" from SmartPak during the
treatment. When we moved him to Equi-Ventures he was
given ad lib hay in a hay net so he always had the ability
to have something in his stomach. I think that was a key
thing for him.
Once on the UlcerGuard the cribbing stopped so we felt we
were on the right track. He did start cribbing again when we
dropped the dose but within a week he stopped cribbing
again and <knock on wood> continues to not crib. (He also
stopped hitting the hay net with gusto after we dropped the
dose, but is back to attacking it.)
Consider using Equiox if she needs something in the future
for discomfort - it does not have the side effects of NSAIDs
such as bute.
Good luck
Dawn J-L
> hpjeannie <hpjean...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > So I'm going to get some Ultragard (thanks, Cindi) and use full tubes
> > (instead of the Bute that's been making her feel good but is rough on
> > stomachs) for a week, see if it makes a difference, and if so keep
> > using it at the maintenance dose for a month or so. She may have
> > developed an ulcer during her hay-free months after her choke episode,(snip) if an ulcer had already developed, it's
> > been sitting there stewing instead of being treated. And her on-
> > again, off-again eating habits seem to point that way.
>
> Nina was able to get Gastroguard for Cruiser at a very, very good
> price from Entirely Pets. (snip)
> We also put him on "SmartGut" from SmartPak during the
> treatment. When we moved him to Equi-Ventures he was
> given ad lib hay in a hay net so he always had the ability
> to have something in his stomach. I think that was a key
> thing for him.
>
> Once on the UlcerGuard the cribbing stopped so we felt we
> were on the right track. He did start cribbing again when we
> dropped the dose but within a week he stopped cribbing
> again and <knock on wood> continues to not crib. (He also
> stopped hitting the hay net with gusto after we dropped the
> dose, but is back to attacking it.)
>
> Consider using Equiox if she needs something in the future
> for discomfort - it does not have the side effects of NSAIDs
> such as bute.
>
> Good luck
>
What Sue said. I have a mare that has a history of ulcers. Now when
she starts showing subtle signs of developing ulcers (increased
cribbing, a certain look in her eye at feeding time) I put her on a
course of gastroguard (as a vet tech I can order it at work at cost,
but it is still pricey) I treat her for a full month at the full dose
and a second month at a half dose (even though she did not appear
unthrifty or very ill, she had grade 8/10 during her first episode so
I am aggressive with her treatent). During her last episode I put her
on the Smartpak "SmartGut" to see if that helps reduce the rate of her
recurrences.
It takes 5 days for the gastroguard/ultraguard to have the maximal
reduction in acid production on the stomach. Then the ulcers need to
heal if present. Clinically, I can usually see a behavioral response
(even during her first bout of severe ulcers) after a dose or two.
I hope your dear Novia responds to ulcer treatment. If not then you
will know something else is wrong. Best wishes for a good coutcome;
Novia is clearly in great hands.
Dawn JL
Nina
> price from Entirely Pets. Hopefully she will weigh in with the exact
> procedure she used to get all the discounts. You would need
> a script for the GG but they have Ulcerguard as well if you can't
> get a script.
Entirelypets.com no longer has Gastrogard (I think I cleaned them
out with my Cruiser order ;-)) but they do have Ulcergard which is
the same thing. Here, in excruciating detail, is the story of my
search for the cheapest Gastrogard I could find.
I set up a cashback account with Bing and then searched the
participating stores. Entirelypets.com had the lowest price and
I would earn Bing dollars (5%) on the purchase. Plus, free shipping
on the order. I then did a google search and found that Entirepets
had the lowest price anywhere. I ended up paying ~$29 per tube.
Just did a google search today and found Ulcergard at
Discountpetdrugs.com at $29.99 per tube with free shipping on
orders over $100. You can search the coupon sites for a coupon -
I found one that will give you $10 off the order plus free shipping.
Nina
hpjeannie
Thank you very much, Sue and Nina, for the help. I found the cheapest
Ulcergard at discountpetdrugs, as you did, but only found a $5 coupon
on the site. I'll check the coupon sites and I do intend to buy
enough to get the free shipping as well. Not sure I want to go the
Bing route, but I'll check it out too.
And it's true...GastroGard is merely a full-tube (quadruple) dose of
UlcerGard! After Novia is through this course of the stuff, I'm
thinking of trying B-L (devil's claw) or maybe the Equioxx (I've also
read that Previcox, for dogs, is the exact same thing but much
cheaper...anyone know?).
Thanks also to Tara and Dawn (is the SmartGut working?) - this group
is amazing. I've always known that, but it's nice to be on the
receiving end of such good advice when it's sorely needed!
Jeannie
hpjeannie
tubes' worth).
http://www.ulcergard.com/rebate/Online_Rebate.pdf
Jeannie
Sue Leopold
> And it's true...GastroGard is merely a full-tube (quadruple) dose of
> UlcerGard! After Novia is through this course of the stuff, I'm
> thinking of trying B-L (devil's claw) or maybe the Equioxx (I've also
> read that Previcox, for dogs, is the exact same thing but much
> cheaper...anyone know?).
Previcox is the same thing and is much cheaper than Equioxx,
but is not labeled for use in horses. Some vets will prescribe
it off-label for horses - check with your vet about that and the
proper dosage for horses - the dosage per pound in the
horse is less than that for dogs. If you search on previcox
on the COTH forums there are quite a few discussions such
as this one:
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=172513
Don't rule out MSM for minor pain management. Some horses
seem to do really well on it - seems to have anti-inflammatory
effects - and it is cheap and very safe to use.
This is not a testimonial (well, maybe it is) but Nina and I
really like SmartPak. Their comparison chart is great,
customer service outstanding and you don't have to buy
all the supplements in the little daily packages - can get
in bulk containers. Though for a boarded horse, we really
like the traditional SmartPaks - for ease of administration
and for the ability to monitor if the horse is getting the supps.
(The containers are "green" in that they are made from
recycled products and can be recycled.)
Good luck with Novia!
Tara
Thanks also to Tara and Dawn (is the SmartGut working?) - this group
is amazing. I've always known that, but it's nice to be on the
receiving end of such good advice when it's sorely needed!
Jeannie
------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeannie I forgot to mention that a daily long-term maintenance supplement
for ulcers and/or upset stomachs is a product called U-Gard. Several horses
with previously confirmed ulcers at my barn are on it. I give it to any
horse who has to be on Bute for any length of time and also use it when my
guys travel. It comes in powder & pellet and is basically like Maalox or
similar.
Tara
The Very Model of Sweetness and Light
On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 20:12:11 -0800 (PST), betsey <twox...@aol.com> wrote:
>...for the last almost ten years, he had been a very expensive pasture
>pet...
So you had a Thoroughbred that became crippled in
the early teens. How did that happen?
The same horse became severely ill a decade later: do
you know what brought that on, or don't you care if
another horse of yours suffers that way?
>and that to keep him alive would likely be throwing good money
>after bad
That's how you feel about people, too, isn't it. You
can have gravy rolling down your chins in reward for
making sure that sick people will also be poor, too.
>... A defined ending is a blessing.
Not necessarily ...