Beauty is a beast
nobody@nowhere
horses since we were kids and through the nine years of our wedded
bliss, but neither know for sure what to do about this one.
After years of scrimping, buying and selling and trading up,
we've finally purchased the horse of both of our dreams. She's
gorgeous, talented and great to be around-90% of the time. A
four-year old AQHA mare, we planned to show her on the circuit and
someday turn her into a broodmare, but first we have to deal with a
problem.
It's obvious this mare was abused in her stall at one time.
When she has food in front of her, she turns into a she-devil,
pinning her ears and charging anyone who walks by her stall. When
she has been punished for this behavior, either by voice or a good
thumping, she turns into a trembling wreck and looks like she's
bracing for a beating. She has kicked at my husband (before we knew
what we were dealing with here) when he's entered her stall at
dinner, although when I've stood in her doorway and she's rushed me,
she comes up short, obviously just making a display out of fear.
We've tried appropriate punishment and soft, quiet movement, more
success with the latter than the former, but the problem exists. Has
anyone had to deal with this situation? How did it play out? Will
time be the key (my husband's position)? Our trainer (whom we
bought the mare from and supposedly wants to keep us and our money
as clients) says that though they noticed the ear pinning, they
never saw any of the other shenanigans. She will go back to them
this spring for a tune-up, so we'll make sure they notice it, but if
anyone out there who has an idea we could try until then, I'm
listening.
Terry von Gease
> It's obvious this mare was abused in her stall at one time.
>When she has food in front of her, she turns into a she-devil,
>pinning her ears and charging anyone who walks by her stall. When
>she has been punished for this behavior, either by voice or a good
>thumping, she turns into a trembling wreck and looks like she's
>bracing for a beating. She has kicked at my husband (before we knew
>what we were dealing with here) when he's entered her stall at
>dinner, although when I've stood in her doorway and she's rushed me,
>she comes up short, obviously just making a display out of fear.
>We've tried appropriate punishment and soft, quiet movement, more
>success with the latter than the former, but the problem exists. Has
>anyone had to deal with this situation? How did it play out? Will
>time be the key (my husband's position)? Our trainer (whom we
>bought the mare from and supposedly wants to keep us and our money
>as clients) says that though they noticed the ear pinning, they
>never saw any of the other shenanigans. She will go back to them
>this spring for a tune-up, so we'll make sure they notice it, but if
>anyone out there who has an idea we could try until then, I'm
>listening.
Why is it obvious that the horse was abused in her stall? Just because
she doesn't act like you think she should? There are lots of potential
reasons for her behavior, many with a probability equal to or greater
than some sort of mistreatment from long ago. Could be she's just a
natural born bitch. Could be that she was fetched up with others and
she was the low man on the totem pole. Could be that she's just got
your number. There's lots of reasons and combinations of reasons, none
of which have to do with anyone whooping up on her.
No matter, you can either just leave her alone to eat or, if you simply
must mess with her at chow time, you just have to establish that you
are not a threat AND you are the boss and can be anywhere you damn
well please. Time and familiarity will probably do it. Listen to
your husband.
--
Terry Every time a bell rings an angel gets its wings.
Every time a horn honks an angel gets set on fire.
Candy Smith
> but first we have to deal with a
>problem.
>When she has food in front of her, she turns into a she-devil,
>pinning her ears and charging anyone who walks by her stall.
A friend of mine acquired a weanling App that did the same thing
to her after several years of sincere and quiet handling. We had
many a chat over his behavior, and when I witnessed it I worried
that some day his bluff would be called.
The cure??? When he went to a large stable, was worked daily, he
miraculously settled down into a quiet animal. Back home (3 stalls),
irregular work, he became the threatening menace again. So in this
App's case, he needed physical training and lots of work to take out
the *I'm bored // aggression*.
Good luck, and remember she has developing hormones too!
Candy Smith
Blue Moon Estate
Adrienne Regard
> It's obvious this mare was abused in her stall at one time.
>When she has food in front of her, she turns into a she-devil,
>she has been punished for this behavior, either by voice or a good
>thumping, she turns into a trembling wreck and looks like she's
>bracing for a beating.
I've never had to deal with this kind of problem, so let me just say
up front that what follows are just ideas, not known cures!
(1) just leave her alone. If you don't need to be in there during
feeding time, don't make a problem for yourselves.
(2) However, strategy (1) is no good if you do have to be in there
during feeding times sometimes. I'd proceed thusly.
a. teach her to tie in her stall (while not feeding)
so that she will be accustomed to being tied for the
next steps.
b. tye her in the stall, and spend much time, many hours
of your copious free time, feeding her by hand, until
she is calm and friendly.
c. feed larger amounts (in a tub, say) while you remain
in the stall with her (she's still tied).
d. while feeding larger amounts, she's still tied, you
begin moving from her head region to her shoulder region
and doing such things as grooming, running hands along legs,
etc.
e. while feeding larger amounts, have spouse open and close
stall doors.
f. move rakes and pitchforks about while she's eating, tied.
g. etc.
Desensitization. Lots of horses are 'protective' of their feed. They
don't learn not to be protective from punishment.
However, punishment may be appropriate for certain specific behaviors.
I'd never let a kick go unpunished. But I'd ignore the ear pinning.
That lets the horse express it's natural reaction, without endangering
people.
In case it doesn't go without saying, any horse that isn't dead-calm all
the time *should* be taught to immediately face you when you enter a stall,
anyhow. And I wouldn't trust the dead-calm ones, either. (-:
Adrienne Regard
Heather Shaw
very aggressive and possessive about her food. Typically this comes from
a horse having to fend for herself and fight for her food. I suggest
just leaving her alone when she's eating. Once she begins to feel safe,
both with you and with the fact that no other horse(s) are trying to
steal her food, she will calm down. I certainly wouldn't make a bigger
deal out of it than she is. The more she feels threatened, the more she
will feel defensive. With all my mares, they never really get much
better about pinning their ears, although biting and kicking are never
tolerated. If she does threaten to bite or kick when you enter her stall
during feeding (or any time), scold her quickly and firmly, then go
right on with your business. Don't continue to pound her and don't make
it a 'big scene' for her. Soon she will learn to cope with the
discipline and she will know exactly what she is being disciplined for.
Before long she'll probably be able tolerate your presence and will know
that kicking and biting are punishable. Good Luck! -Heather
Martha Sellers
>I have never owned a mare that DIDN'T get
>very aggressive and possessive about her food.
And I have never had one that did.
So I guess we know as much about the subject as we did
yesterday ;-)
Now -- if you want to generalize about Ay-rabs being nervous
and flighty -- I'll jump in! Just kiddin' dish-face lovers.
Martha
--
Martha Sellers
Oakland, California
m_se...@riem.com
Mary Lark
Martha Sellers <mar...@paris.CS.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
>Heather Shaw <hs...@adobe.com> wrote:
>>I have never owned a mare that DIDN'T get
>>very aggressive and possessive about her food.
>
>And I have never had one that did.
>
>So I guess we know as much about the subject as we did
>yesterday ;-)
I heard the perfect question on "Click and Clack" on NPR:
"Who knows less: One person who doesn't know what
he's talking about ... or two people who don't know
what they're talking about?"
Sorry Martha ... couldn't resist. ;-)
Point and fact: My gelding will inhale you if you get betwix'd him
and his food. ;-)
--Mary
ml...@tfs.com
Concord, CA
P.S. I'm outta here! MERRY CHRISTMAS. See ya in '96!
Jan Buell
>gorgeous, talented and great to be around-90% of the time. A
>four-year old AQHA mare, we planned to show her on the circuit and
>problem.
> It's obvious this mare was abused in her stall at one time.
>When she has food in front of her, she turns into a she-devil,
>pinning her ears and charging anyone who walks by her stall. When
>she has been punished for this behavior, either by voice or a good
>thumping, she turns into a trembling wreck and looks like she's
>what we were dealing with here) when he's entered her stall at
>dinner, although when I've stood in her doorway and she's rushed me,
>she comes up short, obviously just making a display out of fear.
I, also, have a mare (bottom of the totem pole) who is severely aggressive
during feeding. I tried to "gentle" her by petting, etc (she hates handling)
and ended up on crutches for a week from a blow to the thigh.
The way I handle it now, after three plus years of ownership, is to feed
her without entering her stall. When I need to clean the stall, I put her
grain bucket outside and be sure I have the stall finished before she comes
in. She becomes angry at ANY intrusion near her when she has food available,
so she is in a paddock and stall to herself. My vet gave me the advice to
let her eat when it is time to eat, and groom (or otherwise handle) when it
is not time to eat. Every horse has his/her idiosyncracies, and since they
generally outweigh us by a few times...we should respect some of them.
From my experience, it ain't worth the fight.
Very Respectfully,
Jan
jbu...@fsr.com
Jim or Laura Behning
>Heather Shaw <hs...@adobe.com> wrote:
>>I have never owned a mare that DIDN'T get
>>very aggressive and possessive about her food.
>And I have never had one that did.
Thank you Martha. None of my seven mares or any of the boarders ever
act this way with their food. In fact, I often groom them in their
stalls while they eat, clean their stalls while they eat, even do the
first mounting of my "babies" in their stalls while they eat. *Never*
had any problems.
Maybe these "aggressive" mares are just HUNGRY ;-)
Laura Behning
mor...@mindspring.com
Linda Merims
: Okay folks, here's the deal...
: we've finally purchased...
: A four-year old AQHA mare...
: but first we have to deal with a problem.
: It's obvious this mare was abused in her stall at one time.
: When she has food in front of her, she turns into a she-devil,
: ...She has kicked at my husband...
: when he's entered her stall at
: she comes up short, obviously just making a display out of fear.
My filly was exactly like this. She was never abused a
day in her life. She was just a very aggressive horse.
One of her tricks that you havn't mentioned your mare doing--
and I'd be be on the look-out for--is her pinning you
in the stall. Not fun. At all. A lot of the kicking
behavior seemed almost reflexive. She'd have her head in
the bucket and I could reach over the stall door and
touch her shoulder and her rear would just fire, whack!
My solution was to stay away from her when she was eating.
She was also a terror to her pasture mates when she was placed
with a group in which she was as old or older than her peers.
She'd guard the water and refuse to let anybody drink.
She'd chase everybody else off their piles of hay, without
bothering to eat herself. Made a nervous wreck out of herself
and all her subordinates. (As a baby, she and her mother
had been kept in a paddock by themselves.)
If anybody really does have a solution to this, I'd love to
hear it. My filly is long gone, but I've always wondered
how one deals with a determinedly aggressive horse. It was
odd. Sometimes you could dominate her, but there were
situations when my filly refused to be cowed: she'd
get very, very angry and her eyes would sink into her head
until you couldn't see anything but a red hollow socket, like
some demon. Seeing that gives one pause, I'll tell you.
Linda B. Merims
l...@ici.net
Massachusetts, USA
jaz
>In Article <4bbv29$1k...@msunews.cl.msu.edu>, nobody@nowhere wrote:
>>gorgeous, talented and great to be around-90% of the time. A
>>four-year old AQHA mare, we planned to show her on the circuit and
>> It's obvious this mare was abused in her stall at one time.
>>When she has food in front of her, she turns into a she-devil,
>>she has been punished for this behavior, either by voice or a good
>>thumping, she turns into a trembling wreck and looks like she's
>>bracing for a beating. She has kicked at my husband (before we knew
>>she comes up short, obviously just making a display out of fear
After reading the posts, I will add some horses (either sex) will be a beast at
feeding time. Who knows why? Only the horse, he's dumb so he's not talking
about it, then again they may not even know why they act this way.
I have one who could be the mare in the former post. I had a friend feed while
I was away and she was frightened to death of her....she is a horse person of
over 15 years. Anyway my filly is nick-named *the pit-bull* at feeding time.
Plus she is like a *watch dog* when new people come to visit....teeth bare,
lungeing at the iron rails. The kicker to this is it is all an act with her.
You go in to the stall and talk sweetly to her and she is a regular horse
again. You tell her everything is going to be alright and she looks arounds
says "says who?" and I usually pat her neck and then she is pretty much normal
to be around. Though I would never let a neophyt handle her, and I never turn
my back on her. This is the respect part: You have to let the horse know things
are fine and you have to be on top of the situation in case of a reversal of
attitude.
Going on to the next post. Yes, this woman is doing what I call sane
horsemanship. She knows the horse has a problem with food and she is going to
respect the problem. She just has to make sure everyone else know about the
problem too, mainly so they do not get hurt.
Remember many horses have a territory to defend too, sometimes this instinct is
severe and the horse is just defending what is hers or his. Food is what keeps
us alive and the instinct to stay alive is strong. Reprimand and tenderness
can go so far, sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.
Aunt Nasty
>jbu...@fsr.com (Jan Buell) wrote:
>>In Article <4bbv29$1k...@msunews.cl.msu.edu>, nobody@nowhere wrote:
>>>gorgeous, talented and great to be around-90% of the time. A
>>>four-year old AQHA mare, we planned to show her on the circuit and
>>>someday turn her into a broodmare, but first we have to deal with a
>>>problem.
She is young, just moved, uncertain of her heierarchal position,
and quite possibly hungry as well.
>>> It's obvious this mare was abused in her stall at one time.
No, it isn't.
>>>When she has food in front of her, she turns into a she-devil,
>>>pinning her ears and charging anyone who walks by her stall. When
>>>she has been punished for this behavior, either by voice or a good
>>>thumping, she turns into a trembling wreck and looks like she's
>>>bracing for a beating. She has kicked at my husband (before we knew
>>>what we were dealing with here) when he's entered her stall at
>>>dinner, although when I've stood in her doorway and she's rushed me,
>>>she comes up short, obviously just making a display out of fear
There are very calm, quiet ways to dominate horses. You must do so
to reassure them that you should be calling the shots, it is essential
to their trust in your authority. It DOES NOT involve a flurry of
cowardly and ill-timed physical attacks. It involves consistent
and qualified work with the animal which allows for absolutely
no dominant gesturing from the horse.
It is something a good trainer has received in education, not something
a wishful thinker will somehow be able to make up along the way.
>After reading the posts, I will add some horses (either sex) will be a beast at
>feeding time. Who knows why? Only the horse, he's dumb so he's not talking
>about it, then again they may not even know why they act this way.
They're hungry, and nobody in the vicinity is willing to serve as a herd
authority for them. This is a pathetic state of affairs for the horse,
who is tormented by frightened jailors rather than handled competently
by knowledgeable leadership.
>I have one who could be the mare in the former post. I had a friend feed while
>I was away and she was frightened to death of her....she is a horse person of
>over 15 years. Anyway my filly is nick-named *the pit-bull* at feeding time.
This misuse of nomenclature has the potential to do tremendous damage.
>Plus she is like a *watch dog* when new people come to visit....teeth bare,
>lungeing at the iron rails. The kicker to this is it is all an act with her.
Any horse will attempt to dominate others. This one has just not been
acclimated properly to the concept that humans are dominant. This is
unfair to the animal in the extreme.
>You go in to the stall and talk sweetly to her and she is a regular horse
>again. You tell her everything is going to be alright and she looks arounds
>says "says who?" and I usually pat her neck and then she is pretty much normal
>to be around. Though I would never let a neophyt handle her, and I never turn
>my back on her. This is the respect part: You have to let the horse know things
>are fine and you have to be on top of the situation in case of a reversal of
>attitude.
A horse you can't turn your back on is a prime candidate for the dogfood can.
Why would any conscientious owner let this ridiculous condition persist?
>Going on to the next post. Yes, this woman is doing what I call sane
>horsemanship. She knows the horse has a problem with food and she is going to
>respect the problem. She just has to make sure everyone else know about the
>problem too, mainly so they do not get hurt.
Don't feed the horse enough, don't train the horse enough, and then "respect
the problem"? What a crock.
>Remember many horses have a territory to defend too, sometimes this instinct is
>severe and the horse is just defending what is hers or his. Food is what keeps
>us alive and the instinct to stay alive is strong. Reprimand and tenderness
>can go so far, sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.
Do the discretion part for your own inexperienced sake, then for the horse's
benefit turn to a trainer.
>> I, also, have a mare (bottom of the totem pole) who is severely aggressive
>>during feeding. I tried to "gentle" her by petting, etc (she hates handling)
>>and ended up on crutches for a week from a blow to the thigh.
See 'discretion' ... 'trainer', above.
>> The way I handle it now, after three plus years of ownership, is to feed
>>her without entering her stall. When I need to clean the stall, I put her
>>grain bucket outside and be sure I have the stall finished before she comes
>>in. She becomes angry at ANY intrusion near her when she has food available,
>>so she is in a paddock and stall to herself. My vet gave me the advice to
>>let her eat when it is time to eat, and groom (or otherwise handle) when it
>>is not time to eat. Every horse has his/her idiosyncracies, and since they
>>generally outweigh us by a few times...we should respect some of them.
Please read Laura Behning's post, and let it sink in if you can.
I feed my herd as a group, they stand 4 or 5 feet apart, NOBODY
so much as makes a face at anybody else, and I can groom, sit on,
fool around with, or do anything I like with any of them, including
the four mares, who are spirited and dominant as individuals. The
rule is everybody stands quietly where they belong until the sound
of chewing stops. They also eat their FREE CHOICE hay close to
each other and without fighting.
You're in charge or you aren't. In the latter case you are cruising
for a bruising or much worse no matter what else you do.
There is little point in expecting a horse to do advanced work under
saddle if the animal's little brain is so damn concerned with where
the next meal is coming from and will it be safe to stand and eat.
>> From my experience, it ain't worth the fight.
From my experience, it makes no sense not to address the underlying
problems, for the sake of the horse, the handlers, and oneself.
root
> This is so typical in mares. I have never owned a mare that DIDN'T get
We have 31 horses here right now, about half of them mares. I've never noticed
that mares are perceptibly more possessive about food than geldings.
--
John Hasler uunet!hasler!root
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, Wisconsin
Bill
She will not let any other horse near her when feeding (we have a
runin barn). It got to the point where I built an 8x8 addition so
that my daughter's pony didn't have to eat in the rain or snow.
She has never charged a person or pinned her ears or had any type
aggressive behavior toward people. I will pick her feet or brush
her while she eats & she tolorates it.
If she ever became a threat to a person - she would be history. I
have too many youngsters around to have to worry about a bad
attitude.
I've owned & been around horses the better part of 40 years & this
mare is the best horse I've ever owned. She would still be GONE
with any aggressive behavior. Let someone with experience & no
childred work her. There are a great deal of Class A horses out
there - find another.
Gala Argent
> >>very aggressive and possessive about her food.
>
Then Laura Behning wrote:
>
> Thank you Martha. None of my seven mares or any of the boarders ever
> act this way with their food. In fact, I often groom them in their
> stalls while they eat, clean their stalls while they eat, even do the
> first mounting of my "babies" in their stalls while they eat. *Never*
> had any problems.
>
> Maybe these "aggressive" mares are just HUNGRY ;-)
We have a 16.3, 17 y/o Appaloosa mare, Fingerpaints, who evented through
prelim and exhibits *some* of this type of behavior in her stall at feed
time--pinning ears, showing teeth, and actually hisses when other horses
pass her stall. (Does not act like this toward people.) Having been an
athlete all her life, she was always kept in a stall and never really was
socialized with other horses. This mare is the most gentle of mares around
people, though, and does not exhibit these behaviors toward them.
We worried when we bought her at 15 that she'd have a hard time at our
place. Here, no one gets that kind of tratment--everyone lives with at
least one other horse in a paddock and all get stalled only when weather
is bad. it *did* work out. We introduced her gradually to our horses, and
she's *very* submissive to all but the babies when she's out with others.
She does, however, still hiss and growl at any of the horses who walk by
her stall at feeding time. if you took her at face value when she's doing
this, you'd think she was a true danger, she's so genuine in her
agression. But for her, it's all bluster.
BTW, this mare produced for us the most perfect leopard filly this year,
at 17, her first baby, who'll top 17 hands by my estimation. That baby
taught me a lesson about selling horses when someone saw her on a video of
another horse for sale. It's called, "She's not for sale." Went like this:
Potential buyer, "How much for that filly?" Me, "She's not for sale." PB,
"Would you take $X?" Me, "She's not for sale." PB, "How about $XX?" Me,
She's not for sale." PB, "How about $XXX?" Me, (Gulp) "Sheeee's nnnot for
sale."
Back on point, could it be that this mare is all talk and no action, like
my mare? Sometime just "making yourself big" and challenging this type of
behavior (without, of course, ever putting yourself in danger) will back a
horse off. I.e. Q: Why does she do it? A: Because she *can*.
Gala Argent, Silvermoon Sport Appaloosas, Forsethill, CA, USA
argentco@foothill,net
Dan A Wheaton
days? I've got a QH myself, and I know the industry - watch out for the
fancy babies. Too much, too fast, too young. You sound as though you've
pegged it - abuse is right. I'd suggest that for a while you feed her
outside and alone, away from everything threatening. Just pour the food on
the ground and leave her. After about two weeks of this, use a handful (no
bucket - just in your hand) of grain to catch her up in the field. Don't do
any training or riding following this. Just offer her food and be social.
Try a good face scratch after the grain is gone, then walk away.
After a week of this, try going out with a bucket. She should be alone in
the field or paddock - no competition for the goodies. Put it on the ground
and stand about ten paces back. Call her to you with a handful of grain as
last week, then let her go to the bucket. Don't challenge her for the
grain. This is no-conflict training, going back to basic levels of trust
and confidence that you are going to feed her, and that she's not going to
be fed and beaten. In her mind, she's connecting the two, and that
translates into defensive behavior at dinner time. After she's done eating
and starts to walk away, call her to you for another handful of grain and a
face scratch. Then you walk away from her.
Make sure that "going to the trainer for a tune-up" doesn't set her back -
if there's a pattern of abuse that "they haven't noticed", be careful. I
don't know your trainer and I don't want to create a problem, but there are
trainers out there who really don't love the animal, just the business.
I've seen perfectly behaved horses go to a trainer, come back, and you can't
pick out a stall with them inside - the pitchfork has become a threat. Now
who taught them that?
Good luck and stay safe. Be alert to the fact that the QH temperament is
generally a kind and forgiving one, you may be able to win her over and get
the trust back. Don't expect it to be easy or quick - and don't let anyone
else start smacking her around to get her to back down - it'll make the
problem worse. Calm, confident and caring.
Tierney Wheaton
WmBecker
>pinning her ears and charging anyone who walks by her stall. When
>she has been punished for this behavior, either by voice or a good
>thumping, she turns into a trembling wreck and looks like she's
>bracing for a beating. She has kicked at my husband (before we knew
>what we were dealing with here) when he's entered her stall at
>dinner, although when I've stood in her doorway and she's rushed me,
I've seen variations of this behavior in several horses including my own
horse, Kiss Me. It does not necessarily indicate that the horse has been
abused, but in my opinion simply reflects how horses act in a herd. The
more dominant herd members get to eat first, and will always try to chase
a lower ranking horse away from its food. The problem you've made is not
establishing who's boss, and so the mare is challenging you for dominance.
What I've done with Kiss Me is insist she stand a few feet away and watch
while I bring her food in. I first enter the stall, lead her into the
corner, make her face the food bin, and then tell her to stay. She gets no
food until she stands perfectly still. I then bring in the food, and she
can't move until I tell her to "walk on". If she moves forward *at all* I
tell her to "back", and she has to go to the exact spot she was in before.
This is safer than other methods of dealing with the problem because you
first enter the stall without any food, and so you're unlikely to trigger
food aggression problems. It also helps develop the very useful skill of
having the horse stay put when you tell it.
Michael Czeiszperger
cz...@imonics.com
(Posting from his father-in-law's account while marooned in Cleveland.)
[ Now I understand why many of the AOL posts don't conform to USENET
standards-- the USENET news-reader is the worst I've ever seen.]
Martha Sellers
>My filly was exactly like this. She was never abused a
>day in her life. She was just a very aggressive horse.
>She was also a terror to her pasture mates when she was placed
>with a group in which she was as old or older than her peers.
>She'd guard the water and refuse to let anybody drink.
>She'd chase everybody else off their piles of hay, without
>bothering to eat herself. Made a nervous wreck out of herself
>and all her subordinates.
>If anybody really does have a solution to this, I'd love to
>hear it.
This is Patrick to a tee! (YOu can tell I'll never be able
to sell him on rec.eq ;-)
He will guard the waterer. He moves the horses from their
hay piles just to show he can do it. He cuts one horse from
the herd and walks him around the pasture for hours on end
(TB cow horse?) He will leave food in a second for an
opportunity to stomp the dogs, or get some trouble going.
I don't cure it. He has learned (I had professional help
with this) that I am boss, though he tests me each time I
handle him, to see if that has changed. He has learned he
must stand still for grooming, not pin his ears at me,
respect my space, give me his foot, etc... I don't ask him
to be polite to other horses when he is turned out with
them. (In the same way, I would let the original mare eat
in peace.) But he is always respectful of humans, or life
gets uncomfortable.
OTOH, he has more endurance than any horse I know, and I
think it is related to the absolute persistance it takes to
try and dominate anyone anywhere. And if he can't gain
weight well cuz he is always herding someone around the
paddock, at least he is getting good circulation in his feet
cuz he never just stands in a 12x12.
root
> The more dominant herd members get to eat first, and will
> always try to chase a lower ranking horse away from its food.
Not true. Dominant herd members will often share food
with those less dominant.
teri does drsg
2-legged animals (and *maybe* our dogs/cats) . Herd hierarchy is worked
out as long as there is room for all concerned. If one really doesn't
handle herd living, then we need to accept that and ensure there is an
alternative, which hopefully includes turnout or a large paddock, or
perhaps finding a single other horse that does get along....but then some
people are simply not social creatures either! Both my girls like
socializing when food is not an issue and are somewhat protective of
their food when it is there (the 2yo is queen over all but one of the 9
geldings she is pastured with, but there are very few major issues since
they are on 15+ acres)
Teri
Grayce (10yoTB)
Didi (2yoSWB)
Beija (3 1/2wk Brdr Collie arriving 1/13!)
ir...@msg.ti.com
>>When she has food in front of her, she turns into a she-devil,
>>pinning her ears and charging anyone who walks by her stall. When
>>she has been punished for this behavior, either by voice or a good
>>thumping, she turns into a trembling wreck and looks like she's
I wouldn't jump to the abuse conclusion so quickly (I think too many
folks do that too often). I've seen this type of behavior from horses
that are used to feeding with other horses. When horses are fed at
the same time in a pasture, it is almost inevitable that they will try
to take the next horse's feed (musical buckets!) so some of them start
becoming very protective of their food. I have one mare whose left
hind leg continually flies backwards about every 30 seconds when she's
eating - whether she's alone or not. She wasn't abused - sometimes
they just pick up quirky habits. Your best bet is to be sure to mind
your own safety around her. For example, I will never feed the above
mare in a stall where the feed bucket is on the back wall - I know I'd
get nailed on the way out and know it wouldn't be intentional on her
part.
Good luck with your mare.
Debbie
Wylie, TX
Aunt Nasty
>>> It's obvious this mare was abused in her stall at one time.
>>>When she has food in front of her, she turns into a she-devil,
>>>pinning her ears and charging anyone who walks by her stall. When
>>>she has been punished for this behavior, either by voice or a good
>>>thumping, she turns into a trembling wreck and looks like she's
>I wouldn't jump to the abuse conclusion so quickly (I think too many
>folks do that too often). I've seen this type of behavior from horses
>that are used to feeding with other horses. When horses are fed at
>the same time in a pasture, it is almost inevitable that they will try
>to take the next horse's feed (musical buckets!) so some of them start
>becoming very protective of their food.
True. The problem you so accurately described is symptomatic of a
dearth of commodities in their collective experience, however, and
I don't recall when that became the optimal state of affairs ;->
Herds having no concern for space, movement, rest, water, roughage,
and nutrients don't exhibit those behaviors. They walk away from
the remnants of a doublehandful of pellets and ignore each other
at most. Horses with long experience of excess lengths of their
GI tracts lying empty will be compulsive about food to the degree
that they will overconsume grains at the cost of their lives. The
latter is a misinterpretation of fuel economy which isn't applicable
to the modern recreational and sport horse.
I've observed that the horses like to eat their hay with their faces
close together with their friends, three or four together.
> I have one mare whose left
>hind leg continually flies backwards about every 30 seconds when she's
>eating - whether she's alone or not. She wasn't abused - sometimes
>they just pick up quirky habits. Your best bet is to be sure to mind
>your own safety around her. For example, I will never feed the above
>mare in a stall where the feed bucket is on the back wall - I know I'd
>get nailed on the way out and know it wouldn't be intentional on her
>part.
>Good luck with your mare.
There's no such thing as luck. With horses, you are in charge - of your
self and your horses - or you are not. In the latter event you had best
avail yourself of at least the example of a good trainer via as many media
as you can work in. If a horse feels comfy with the idea of firing at you
somebody can get killed inadvertently and reasonable risk management depends
upon preventive measures with respect to this situation. It is somewhat like
owning a truly vicious dog, a matter of time only.
The animals must utterly understand that humans are to be regarded with full
attention and respect. That's a genuine trust in our ability to lead them
into safe pleasantries whilst avoiding all degrees of discomfort. One can
simply stand, walk, and direct intent in such a fashion as to part the herd
waters, with awareness and experience. A horse who would kick you over a
pile of feed knows damn well who and what you are, and has an excruciatingly
accurate aim if you are a fair target.
A horse doesn't have to be struck for biting. If biting hasn't been precluded
initially the handler has erred. The animal offers myriad body language to
give notice of his relative significance to the relationship, and that can
be fully established by proper human influence over location, direction,
and motion from the moment of greeting. This influence is far more easy
for the animal to accept, as it is more consistent with the same species
status-preservation tactics already known.
Donna Pattee
Martha Sellers <mar...@paris.CS.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
>Heather Shaw <hs...@adobe.com> wrote:
>>I have never owned a mare that DIDN'T get
>>very aggressive and possessive about her food.
>
>And I have never had one that did.
>
>yesterday ;-)
My mare, Miss Dominance Herself, is fine about food - no aggressive
behavior towards humans at all, ever. She defends her food from the others
but doesn't go after them. However, my daughter's sweet, lovable QH gelding
is obnoxious about his bucket. Given a chance, he will flatten his ears,
snake his neck and stamp at anyone trying to hang up his bucket. My husband
will not give him the bucket until the ears are up and he accepts a pat on
the neck - then he can have the bucket. My daughter has had to learn not to
let the gelding intimidate her at feeding time.
>
>Now -- if you want to generalize about Ay-rabs being nervous
>and flighty -- I'll jump in! Just kiddin' dish-face lovers.
>
Oh, you mean like my mare who is totally oblivious to the plastic bags that
blow through her pasture while the QH gelding jumps 10' sideways when the
bags fly by him?
Martha Sellers
>Michael Czeiszperger writes:
>> The more dominant herd members get to eat first, and will
>> always try to chase a lower ranking horse away from its food.
>
>Not true. Dominant herd members will often share food
>with those less dominant.
I see this in our little herd. The dominant horse chases
off the 'plebe' when the hay is first put out, but after a
few minutes they are eating peacefully together. After the
hierarchy is established, it seems to be confirmed with
these displays, but they don't last long. YMMV obviously, and
in any group situation, I would always put out 1 more pile
of hay than horses and spread them out.
Pat Wilson
>in any group situation, I would always put out 1 more pile
>of hay than horses and spread them out.
Which leads to endless hours of fun as the "bully" tries to
keep everyone else away from _all_ of the piles! OTOH, it's
great exercise... :->
--
Pat Wilson
p...@coos.dartmouth.edu
John Hasler
> I would always put out 1 more pile
> of hay than horses and spread them out.
If you have two horses and a dominant who will not share, this may result in
the dominant getting two-thirds of the hay. In a small herd, it is generally
best to put out either one pile per horse, or many piles per horse.
Watch your horses eat and adjust your system accordingly.
--
John Hasler This posting is in the public domain.
jgha...@win.bright.net Do with it what you will.
Imonics Corporation
root <jgha...@win.bright.net> wrote:
>Michael Czeiszperger writes:
>> The more dominant herd members get to eat first, and will
>> always try to chase a lower ranking horse away from its food.
>
>Not true. Dominant herd members will often share food
>with those less dominant.
Boy you can really get into trouble with generalizations. I was thinking
of grain when I wrote that. I've seen dominant horses share their hay,
and even herd lower ranking horses to areas of the pasture with better
grass, but I've not seen one that would share its grain. I've not seen
that many horses in my life so I'm sure its possible though.
--
Michael Czeiszperger | "Those riders who seek exactitude and absolute accuracy
Imonics 919-461-6366 | destroy the courage of a brave horse and ruin the gen-
Raleign, NC | tility which nature has given him" -- La Gueriniere
cz...@imonics.com | http://www4.ncsu.edu/eos/users/l/lmbecker/www/czei.html
Martha Sellers
>Martha Sellers writes:
>> I would always put out 1 more pile
>> of hay than horses and spread them out.
>
>If you have two horses and a dominant who will not share, this may result in
>the dominant getting two-thirds of the hay. In a small herd, it is generally
>best to put out either one pile per horse, or many piles per horse.
Ah. Seemed like good math at the time. I am extremely
fortunate that my hard keeper is the dominant horse. I have
even grained him in herd situations by just hanging a bucket
on the fence. He got it all ;-) In fact, give him a bucket
in a pen by himself and he eats very halfheartedly. With a
little interest in is stuff from the others, his appetite is
much healthier!
Aunt Gracious Nasty
>In article <JGHASLER.95...@hasler.none>,
>root <jgha...@win.bright.net> wrote:
>>Michael Czeiszperger writes:
>>> The more dominant herd members get to eat first, and will
>>> always try to chase a lower ranking horse away from its food.
>>
>>Not true. Dominant herd members will often share food
>>with those less dominant.
>Boy you can really get into trouble with generalizations. I was thinking
>of grain when I wrote that. I've seen dominant horses share their hay,
>and even herd lower ranking horses to areas of the pasture with better
>grass, but I've not seen one that would share its grain. I've not seen
>that many horses in my life so I'm sure its possible though.
If the dominant individual is not satiated with fiber and a full spectrum
of nutrients, it's not likely, but if such animals do have enough of all
that they need, it's not unusual.
I still smile when the little 13 hand donkey and the more timid horses
will stick their noses right into the pans alongside the biggest and most
aggressive individuals in the herd, after they've eaten as much as they
want at the time. I like the freedom to snag a horse and work without
wondering if it's too close to 'feeding time'; the animals are too
content to be distracted by new bales or rattling grain bins, and
are free to concentrate on the work I ask of them.
They all walk away without eating all of the grain, which the birds swoop
in quite readily to get afterward. The horses work far better when they
are not distracted by primary physical needs, after all ;->
I could leave the feed room door open, and they wouldn't even bother
to hang around in there. That's a safety measure I don't want to
test but which may make all the difference in the world for them.
Sheila the beastly beauty gr...@pipeline.com
MediaSolWI
turnout. Many of the horses (including him) were very aggressive about
their food, kicked their stalls at feeding time, etc. It wasn't until I
moved him to another barn two years ago where he goes out all day every
day that I realized his problem was due to the fact that being fed was all
he had to look forward to during his confinement. Now he's just fine
about his food and so are all the other horses at this barn.
How much turnout and work does your new horse get? Maybe she's too
focused on her food because that's all she has to look forward to. I was
totally amazed at the change in my horse when I moved him to this new
barn.
Good luck with your mare!
Betsy Hale
In a previous article, jgha...@win.bright.net (root) says:
>Michael Czeiszperger writes:
>> The more dominant herd members get to eat first, and will
>> always try to chase a lower ranking horse away from its food.
>
>Not true. Dominant herd members will often share food
>with those less dominant.
>--
>John Hasler
Yes. I know a 29 yr old Mustang gelding who has always been
the most dominant horse wherever he's lived. When turned out
with 2 mares 14 yrs ago, he befriended the more timid of them,
and not only shared his food with her, but offered protection
against attacks by the other mare.
--
BETSY HALE - Performing artist: Actress, Singer, Dancer
Horse trainer: Dressage & Jumping - adhering to classical principles
of lightness, harmony and elegance.
ap...@lafn.org 9420 Reseda Bl #507, Northridge CA 91324
Ruth Marie vale
...
: want at the time. I like the freedom to snag a horse and work without
: wondering if it's too close to 'feeding time'; the animals are too
: content to be distracted by new bales or rattling grain bins, and
: are free to concentrate on the work I ask of them.
: They all walk away without eating all of the grain, which the birds swoop
: in quite readily to get afterward. The horses work far better when they
: are not distracted by primary physical needs, after all ;->
Same here. I've got two "hard" keepers -- a 15yr. old TB (with "anorexic
tendencies, acc. to vet) and a 32yr. mostly Arab gelding. Neither of them
are hungry enough at any time to be `beastly' because they aren't overly hungry.
They're getting about 1.5 lbs. grain (in appropriate form for each),
and about a half bale of good quality hay overnight and morning. The
rest of the day they spend picking at the round bale.
The witchy behaviour I've seen elsewhere, and have seen this mare exhibit
when under the feeding regime of a standard boarding barn is nowhere to
be seen. That includes banging on walls, threatening their neighbours,
running their teeth along the bars, complaining loudly and fretting and
running at the pasture gate or barn door and being unable
to concentrate when being worked after 4 p.m. In contract, mine will now
wait patiently for their supper, which they get anywhere
from 5 p.m to 8 p.m. and occasionally later when I'm working late. They've
always got the round bale. Not really hungry even in -22C temps these
past few weeks. The old one is keeping weight and the TB is gaining again. :)
The mare likes to send the old one on tours of the barn yard but that's
only because she likes to be boss. He's learned to keep out of the way. :)
Ruth
Springtwist (15 yr. TB mare)
Aristocrates (32 mostly Arab gelding)
Brody (5 mon. canine)
--
HaneyD
horse at feeding time. I raised this now 5 yr old otherwise sweet gelding
from a baby. He was never abused and has never been without his feed. This
is what works for me. I halter him, take him to his stall, get the grain
and have him in hand as I walk him to his feeder and the entire time he
eats his grain I have a hand on him. It was real hard at first but if you
keep a lead on them they cant spin and kick you...over a period of 2 weeks
he went from hell on weels to a horse who didnt realy care that I was in
the stall while he was eating....but.....when I deviated from this
procedure he returned to his grump-O-saurs attitude!
GeorgeS337
record. Connecticut buyer. Will travel New England/New York area.
GeorgeS337
four feet.
Consistently in top ribbons. Connecticut location. Dark dapple gray.
Owner/present rider too tall.