Trail riding straight dope
Ocean of Nuance
one of the extended periods in which Pete was with her.
I had asked her to work on trail more than usual. So she took him out 3
of the 6 days each week. She went alone and in company.
He would start to yell at about a half hour's distance from the barn,
near the place where she would turn around to head home anyway. This
lessened over time but didn't disappear. She usually ignored it or bent
him or put him to work.
He was okay in company but only when in the lead, something I knew.
A half hour away from the barn is much further than I can travel at my
barn. That explains the complete lack of yelling with me.
He does not like being away from his buddies. He does not relax and
does want to be on contact or at least wants to know the rider is up there.
I have been riding out of the arena with the mental image of me
imagining myself as Hunter imagining herself as Roy Rogers imagining
himself as Dale Evens. But that doesn't work. He wants to be on
contact out there with his attention on me every microsecond. That's
great for the arena but doesn't translate to the trail. Unfortunately.
sharon
Emily Brooks
"Ocean of Nuance" <lizRMOVz...@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:7ogpavF...@mid.individual.net...
>
> I have been riding out of the arena with the mental image of me imagining
> myself as Hunter imagining herself as Roy Rogers imagining himself as Dale
> Evens. But that doesn't work. He wants to be on contact out there with
> his attention on me every microsecond. That's great for the arena but
> doesn't translate to the trail. Unfortunately.
>
> sharon
Dressage horses are taught to expect to be micromanaged. It may be difficult
to train him that it's OK, on the trail, to have a different paradigm.
I know that I, myself, didn't realize how much I had to *ride* Spot, on the
trail or otherwise, until I got Cash and could really relax. OTOH, Cash had
a flash point and Spot doesn't.
We, as the smart ones, have to ride the horse we have, not the horse we
imagine. Which doesn't keep us from using the smarts to try to make one into
the other, but the raw material frames the results to some degree.
Emily
redbranch
wrote:
I agree with what Emily said...dressage horses are often trained to be
totally dependent on their rider and micromanaged. That's why many
eventers aren't too heavy into working up the levels and maximum
control in their dressage like the strictly dressage folks are...it
takes away some of the horse's ability to handle cross
country...micromanaged horses wait for all direction from the rider
rather than making decisions to save their butts. ;-) An eventer
needs to think on its own sometimes and make snap decisions to avoid a
wreck, while the rider just stays in the middle. Dressage horses
aren't allowed that level of Independence. I'm sure Eileen or Lisa or
Joyleen will jump in here and correct me if I'm mistaken. ;-)
If I were on Pete, when I felt him start to get worried, I'd put him
to work...demanding work... for a couple of minutes, then do the "OK,
you did good, now you get to walk on a free rein for a break" routine,
like in an arena. The tension usually can be felt in the horse's body
before it comes out in a whinny....start working when relaxation
starts to disappear, rather than waiting for the hollering. Work,
walk, work , walk. lather, rinse, rePete. ;-)
Sharon Potter
Red Branch
Carl
> I agree with what Emily said...dressage horses are often trained to be
> totally dependent on their rider and micromanaged. That's why many
> eventers aren't too heavy into working up the levels and maximum
> control in their dressage like the strictly dressage folks are...it
> takes away some of the horse's ability to handle cross
> country...micromanaged horses wait for all direction from the rider
> rather than making decisions to save their butts. ;-) An eventer
> needs to think on its own sometimes and make snap decisions to avoid a
> wreck, while the rider just stays in the middle. Dressage horses
> aren't allowed that level of Independence. I'm sure Eileen or Lisa or
> Joyleen will jump in here and correct me if I'm mistaken. ;-)
Absolutely. After about 4th level the muscle shape is too bulky and
they can't gallop and jump the way they need to, so generally Advanced
eventing goes up to about that level of collection muscle development.
But the big thing is an eventer *has* to be able to take over and blow
you off, or make his or her own choices, because no person can jump
better than the horse can.
Eileen Morgan
The Mare's Nest
http://www.themaresnest.com
Una
> He wants to be on
>contact out there with his attention on me every microsecond.
That is a horse far, far outside his comfort zone. Do you really
want or need a trail horse? Do you need *him* to be a trail horse?
Una
Cricket
"Carl" <ca...@silverstein.com> wrote in message
news:dfc69a54-816f-4654...@v30g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
**********************************************************************************************************
Yep - one thing I like about Jack - he knows when to say "I don't *think*
so!" He knows how I get, so he doesn't often say it just to be difficult -
if he says "I ain't goin' there" it's probably because "there", while it may
look like a smooth greensward, is actually a smooth algae covered muck hole.
We shall see how the pink mare does on that...she's almost too willing to be
told what to do, but she's refused things with other people, so I may just
have to pay close attention. She may whisper "Um, this may be a bad idea"
as opposed to Jack's "Are you frickin' *nuts*!?!"
When you ride for five or six hours at a shot, it's no fun having to be
micro-managing every foot of the way. Much as I hate the anthropomorphising
"partner" designation when related to horses, in the case of getting me
cross-country alive, that's what I'm looking for. I've got a controlling
interest in this partnership, but he's definitely on the board of directors,
and gets some input, as long as it's respectful.
Cricket
JC Dill
> The tension usually can be felt in the horse's body
> before it comes out in a whinny....start working when relaxation
> starts to disappear, rather than waiting for the hollering.
Well said. Almost all problems start out with "what happened before
what happened happened" and by taking action when the first thing
happens (before it blows up into a "what happened?!") is key.
I do dressage on the trail. When riding on a road-width trail you can
practice leg yield or half pass from track to track, or do shoulder-in
down one of the tracks. It really helps you ride *straight* because you
don't have the crutch of the arena rail to hold the horse straight on
one side. The endless circles one ends up practicing in a ring are not
nearly as useful or as important as being able to ride straight!
jc
Cricket
"JC Dill" <jcdill...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:hg0oek$j29$1...@aioe.org...
I had to laugh at this, because there's a little, tiny, horse park not far
from here, that's all flat, straight trails...can you say *bo-ring*?
But it's great for dressage - with the examples you gave. You can also bend
around trees, back patterns through trees, etc., etc.
Cricket
cindi
> I do dressage on the trail. When riding on a road-width trail you can
> practice leg yield or half pass from track to track, or do shoulder-in
> down one of the tracks. It really helps you ride *straight* because you
> don't have the crutch of the arena rail to hold the horse straight on
> one side. The endless circles one ends up practicing in a ring are not
> nearly as useful or as important as being able to ride straight!
Yeah! That's what I did on my ARIA video to get certified for riding
instruction... That and cantering on the lunge line with no stirrups.
But yeah, those sorts of moves are important on the trail for lots of
reasons: first, you need to see if you can actually do them out there,
without the geometry of the arena for a crutch. :-) Also there are
practical issues such as getting past obstacles or passing another
horse, where it's not necessary or good for the overall training of
the horse to haul the horse around by his nose.
cindi
Ocean of Nuance
I think you are right.
sharon
Ocean of Nuance
Yes I would say he is "hyperobedient" on trail but that completely
defeats the purpose. It should be his time to relax and mosey along.
> If I were on Pete, when I felt him start to get worried, I'd put him
> to work...demanding work... for a couple of minutes, then do the "OK,
> you did good, now you get to walk on a free rein for a break" routine,
> like in an arena. The tension usually can be felt in the horse's body
> before it comes out in a whinny....start working when relaxation
> starts to disappear, rather than waiting for the hollering. Work,
> walk, work , walk. lather, rinse, rePete. ;-)
I could try that. I want him to feel like he can relax on trail. He
can't feel like he can ever think about rushing. Rushing is the worst
from my perspective at least.
sharon
Ocean of Nuance
Yes I want a horse to go out on trails. I asked about that before I
bought him. I don't want to be in the arena every day nor do I think a
horse should do that.
Despite all the work on trail this year he still does not dig it. I
wonder how much work it would take.
sharon
Laurel Reddick
<lizRMOVz...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
It wouldn't take a lot Sharon. Just a few times out with keeping him
busy the whole time--then he will know you are in charge and he is
safe with you because you are in charge. You will have to let him
know this before he will ever just mosey on down the trail. He is not
relaxed because he senses that you are not going to take care of him
when the spooky fern or mud puddle attacks him. I learned this from
my Cariboo horse trainer friends. And Curtis would say the first few
times out "keep him busy and put some weight into those stirrups". I
know Pete can do it as he is an Albertan cow pony, but you are the one
who needs the training as you a city slicker with a DQ mind set. I
don't mean any offense--that is just a fact.
Laurel
Ocean of Nuance
Yes I would agree about my riding but not about my trainer. She worked
three days a week every week for an extended period of time this year,
alone and in company, and he still never really liked being out there.
The problem is not isolated to me in other words. I can and do take him
out just because I think he should be out there. At some point I think
he might just relax.
sharon
Laurel Reddick
<lizRMOVz...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
>snip
>Yes I would agree about my riding but not about my trainer. She worked
>three days a week every week for an extended period of time this year,
>alone and in company, and he still never really liked being out there.
>
>The problem is not isolated to me in other words. I can and do take him
>out just because I think he should be out there. At some point I think
>he might just relax.
dressage barns who are currently in training with trainers of good
reputation. But the horses are sent because of behaviour problems
i.e. nervous, won't stand for mounting, hump and rear when being
saddled, act up on hacks in the countryside, etc. etc. I have yet to
hear from Monika and Curtis that these horses within a week of
arriving aren't going in good spirits out on the ranch to move cattle
with all those problems left behind. I honestly can't ever remember
hearing from them that the problem in the end was the horse's and not
the rider's. It would make me think that even though Pete's trainer
is grand in the arena, she may not be so grand out on the trail. Pure
speculation on my part, but probably a reasonable guess. By the way
it is -28C in Calgary tonight with a wind chill of -45C.
Laurel
Laurel Reddick
<lre...@nowhere.invalid> wrote:
Sharon I forgot to tell you a little Cariboo story. Monika and Curtis
arrived home one day about a month ago and there was a strange horse
trailer and pickup in the driveway. A woman got out of the truck and
told them she had brought her horse down from Quesnel for them to
train as she had heard they were good. Monika tried to point out that
they had no openings for a horse right then. The woman was really
short on social skills--kind of a mountain woman type--and she did a
lot of grunting. Told Monika that the horse was going to kill her so
she was desperate as she loved the horse. Monika asked what the horse
was doing and the only thing the woman would say was "You'll see".
Monika called Curtis over to see if he could get anymore info. and
convince the woman that they couldn't take a horse who wasn't booked.
He got the same response from her i.e. some grunts, her statement that
she loved the horse but it was going to kill her. He tried repeatedly
to find out what the behaviour problems were, but kept getting the
"You'll see" answer. Before Monika could say anything more, Curtis
agree to take the horse.
The next day Curtis saddled up the horse whose name they didn't know
as the woman took off immediately upon Curtis saying it could stay. So
they called the horse "You'll See". Curtis rode You'll See and Monika
rode Cash. Off they went. No problems for the first kilometer or so.
So Curtis said he would go ahead and put it through the paces. So off
he went at the trot and then the canter and then the gallop. About 20
minutes later, he came back and said to Monika that they should switch
horses. She asked Curtis what problems he had found and he responded,
"You'll see!" Then he laughed long and hard. The horse was a peach
and never showed any problem behaviour. The woman came back a month
later and picked him. She took a little ride on him before loading
him and she reported that he did major spins, spooks, and run aways
with her. You'll See never did any of those things the month he was
with Monika and Curtis.
Laurel
Ocean of Nuance
> On Sun, 13 Dec 2009 00:47:48 -0500, Ocean of Nuance
> <lizRMOVz...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
>> snip
>> Yes I would agree about my riding but not about my trainer. She worked
>> three days a week every week for an extended period of time this year,
>> alone and in company, and he still never really liked being out there.
>>
>> The problem is not isolated to me in other words. I can and do take him
>> out just because I think he should be out there. At some point I think
>> he might just relax.
> Monika and Curtis take horses from the Coast who reside in big name
> dressage barns who are currently in training with trainers of good
> reputation. But the horses are sent because of behaviour problems
> i.e. nervous, won't stand for mounting, hump and rear when being
> saddled, act up on hacks in the countryside, etc. etc. I have yet to
> hear from Monika and Curtis that these horses within a week of
> arriving aren't going in good spirits out on the ranch to move cattle
> with all those problems left behind. I honestly can't ever remember
> hearing from them that the problem in the end was the horse's and not
> the rider's.
But these are problems. Pete doesn't do these things on trail. He is
hyperobedient... the exact opposite of what you describe. I don't think
you understand the problem I'm talking about. My only complaint is
rushing (plus not relaxing) because it is the enemy of collection. Do
Curtis and Monika consider rushing a bad thing on trail? I bet not.
I'm not talking running off; I'm talking unbalanced and not level and
not under himself in all gaits. Do they work on that?
> It would make me think that even though Pete's trainer
> is grand in the arena, she may not be so grand out on the trail.
No that's not correct. It's part of her game.
> Pure
> speculation on my part, but probably a reasonable guess.
Yes in general but not with my particular trainer.
By the way
> it is -28C in Calgary tonight with a wind chill of -45C.
> Laurel
Wow. I still say it's the best horse climate I have ever lived in. No
colic cases among the ones living out in that in the time I was there.
sharon
Ocean of Nuance
> On Sat, 12 Dec 2009 21:33:32 -0800, Laurel Reddick
> <lre...@nowhere.invalid> wrote:
> Sharon I forgot to tell you a little Cariboo story.
(snip)
Yes I see your point. That is not the issue I am dealing with. I am
not taking about breaking into trot when I want walk. I am not talking
about breaking into canter when I want trot. I am not talking about not
halting when asked. I am not talking about disobedience or what your
friends would consider "bad behaviour" (I added the "u" for you!) AT ALL.
I am talking about rushing within the gait and not relaxing when out.
sharon
Laurel Reddick
Yes, that is exactly what I am talking about. The horse is not
listening to you and is anxious.
Laurel
Ocean of Nuance
Again,
The horse is listening to me and anxious. He is hyperobedient. He will
stop rushing when asked. He simply starts right up again and won't relax.
This does not fit the description of the "problem" horses you mentioned.
It not close to what you described with the other horses being
disobedient and dangerous frankly. Pete cannot be described as
dangerous on trail.
sharon
Carl
>The horse was a peach
> and never showed any problem behaviour. The woman came back a month
> later and picked him. She took a little ride on him before loading
> him and she reported that he did major spins, spooks, and run aways
> with her. You'll See never did any of those things the month he was
> with Monika and Curtis.
That is why Tony, The Cowboy, won't work with a horse unless the
owners come down and ride it regularly, or in the case of the really
dangerous ones, watch the sessions sometimes until the horse it ready
to be ridden.
My neighbors, who are really sweet, had a rescue horse and also a heck
of a big bully mare that they took to him. Started with the bully,
whom they had bred and raised. She reminds me of what Belles would be
like without me to keep her minding her manners--she is very easy to
ride, but that is because she has been asked to keep her place since
the day she arrived. She's big, she's calm, she's alpha up the wazoo,
and a bit lazy. If she didn't know I meant it, she'd never do a thing
she was asked. JC has ridden her and worked with her, she'll tell you.
Belles tests out your will and makes future decisions based on that.
She's good for a novice because she does not consider what they want
her to do to be work. :-)Anyhow, this big mare of my neighbors is like
that, only without someone laying in the rules. They got a trainer in
once when she was 3 yrs old and she went after the guy and chased him
out of the round pen and that was it for that one. My neighbors could
ride her as long as they didn't try to make her do anything she really
didn't feel like doing, or ride her past the point at which her
quarter ran out. When that happened my neighbor would get off and lead
her, then work her on the ground in a setting where she felt safe.
The mare is 11, so she has had a long time of getting her way. She
really locked horns with Tony, but she's a new woman now. He kept her
longer than a month because she was not quite ready to go home yet.
They brought the rescue horse in the last two weeks and tuned her up,
so both feel more confident and happy riding their paints. Tony had
them out on all kinds of trails, working in the ring, the fields, etc.
so that when they went home they had dealt with all kinds of issues
and learned what to do.
Carl
wrote:
> My only complaint is
> rushing (plus not relaxing) because it is the enemy of collection. Do
> Curtis and Monika consider rushing a bad thing on trail? I bet not.
> I'm not talking running off; I'm talking unbalanced and not level and
> not under himself in all gaits. Do they work on that?
Rushing and off balanced is bad mojo on the trail. You don't want to
the horse to be working like a dressage horse every step, but it
should be moving in a good, comfortable, balanced manner at all times.
You don't want the same exact sort of movement as when doing dressage,
of course, but the horse should feel ready and able to adjust to
variations on the trail, moving out of the way or accomplishing
obstacles, and that sort of thing without a lot of effort.
Jane Saranac
"Laurel Reddick" <lre...@nowhere.invalid> wrote in message
news:9m29i51e3qonj0mf0...@4ax.com...
> "You'll see!" Then he laughed long and hard. The horse was a peach
> and never showed any problem behaviour. The woman came back a month
> later and picked him. She took a little ride on him before loading
> him and she reported that he did major spins, spooks, and run aways
> with her. You'll See never did any of those things the month he was
> with Monika and Curtis.
I wouldn't be surprised if You'll See quickly reverted back, under his old
handler, though <g>.
Laurel Reddick
Yes, I'm sure you are right. Monika and Curtis get many horses back
every other year for tune ups. They always say the owners need to
come for a month as they are the ones that need training--not the
horses.
Laurel
Ocean of Nuance
Yes I agree but I would bet money that Curtis and Monika wouldn't
consider what Pete is doing as rising to the level of a "problem." It
sounds like people are bringing very haughty horses to them for
training. That is not that problem I am talking about. Nobody who rode
Pete on trail would describe him as problematic, dangerous, etc.
It is only a problem because of what I do in the ring and my perceptions
that he shouldn't think he can ever be rushing AT ALL even on trail.
sharon
AKogler
wrote:
Just for the sake of experiment, next time, give Pete a tube of
Gastroguard an hour before you ride him out on the trail.
Abby
Jane Saranac
"Laurel Reddick" <lre...@nowhere.invalid> wrote in message
That is definitely the way to do it! I see that now with Atticus, being so
young and green, that Joyce can get on him and tune him up but if I don't
ride the same clear and light way that she rides, he will untune. So this
is actually working very well, she is becoming better at teaching me, too,
because of having to teach on a green horse, she has to break things down to
very small steps and he and I are both benefitting.
Cricket
"Laurel Reddick" <lre...@nowhere.invalid> wrote in message
news:9m29i51e3qonj0mf0...@4ax.com...
> as the woman took off immediately upon Curtis saying it could stay. So
> they called the horse "You'll See". Curtis rode You'll See and Monika
> rode Cash. Off they went. No problems for the first kilometer or so.
> So Curtis said he would go ahead and put it through the paces. So off
> he went at the trot and then the canter and then the gallop. About 20
> minutes later, he came back and said to Monika that they should switch
> horses. She asked Curtis what problems he had found and he responded,
> "You'll see!" Then he laughed long and hard. The horse was a peach
> and never showed any problem behaviour. The woman came back a month
> later and picked him. She took a little ride on him before loading
> him and she reported that he did major spins, spooks, and run aways
> with her. You'll See never did any of those things the month he was
> with Monika and Curtis.
> Laurel
On the plus side, I've gotten a couple of wonderous horses for free over the
years that way. Owner wouldn't or couldn't admit that they were the
problem, so they got rid of the horse. To me, for free, because it was "too
dangerous" to just sell to anybody (and if *I* could manage it, that wasn't
as embarassing to them, because after all, I'm the evil farrier who makes
'em mind, so somehow that's different).
Their loss...
Cricket
Ocean of Nuance
I agree there probably are more rider-induced problems at the lower
levels.
But there are horse problems that are not rider problems also at the
lower levels. Trainers, even highly experienced and accomplished ones,
are not born having the experience of seeing 10,000 radiographs. When
you only have a hammer, everything is a nail. Unless these lower level
students have the wherewithal to get the horse to a lameness expert to
suss out rider versus horse problems, not only will the rider be
ignorantly blamed but much worse yet the horse will be SOL and never get
back to a stable point if they listen only to the trainer.
There are things, trajectories that point to one or the other, but it is
still a tough call I think most of the time.
I'm not saying this is easy to figure out rider versus horse problem in
every case. I'm just saying only a person who in experienced in sussing
out both will be able to make some of these calls correctly. And then
the proof will be in the pudding.
sharon
John Hasler
> He wants to be on contact out there with his attention on me every
> microsecond.
Read Littauer.
--
John Hasler Boarding, Lessons, Training
jo...@dancinghorsehill.com Hay, Jumps, Cavallox
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, WI USA
Catja Pafort
> Okay I asked my instructor what she did and what her progress was during
> one of the extended periods in which Pete was with her.
>
> I had asked her to work on trail more than usual. So she took him out 3
> of the 6 days each week. She went alone and in company.
> He would start to yell at about a half hour's distance from the barn,
> near the place where she would turn around to head home anyway.
I realise that not every place has the option to loop rides, but
out-and-back is about the worst you can do with an insecure horse.
> This
> lessened over time but didn't disappear. She usually ignored it or bent
> him or put him to work.
I wouldn't ignore it. I ignored Crumble's insecurity, with not-so-great
consequences. I wouldn't do that again.
> He was okay in company but only when in the lead, something I knew.
How is he in the school with following/riding beside another horse,
letting other horses move away? How is he in a field doing those
exercises?
> A half hour away from the barn is much further than I can travel at my
> barn. That explains the complete lack of yelling with me.
Or maybe you ride him differently. Or he's grown up. Who knows.
> He does not like being away from his buddies. He does not relax
How relaxed is he in the school? Does he sigh when you get on, breathe
deeply, and drop his head all the way to the ground? If not, what do you
do to get him to that state?
> and
> does want to be on contact or at least wants to know the rider is up there.
Some horses are like that. Some horses want to have their hand held and
might panic if the rider is absent. Some horses want the rider to be
invisible. (And no, it's not related to how many aids you give or how
strongly, but to your attitude while riding. It's a feel thing.) Some
horses want you in the middle and can blow up either way.
_Be_ there. Drape your seat and leg around him. Keep up a conversation
on the reins. (Doesn't mean a short rein, just not dropping the
conversation entirely.) _Ride_ him. Shoulder-fore, slowing down,
transitions on the spot. Give him something to concentrate on. If
something catches his attention, remain present and check whether he'll
lend you an ear. (Don't allow him to lock all of his attention on
something else. That's not safe.)
If he were my horse, I'd ride him out every day. Not for a long hack,
but for short work. And instead of a single long there-and-back, I'd go
for a short loop - maybe even just around the outside of a field - then
work in the arena for a bit, then take him out again. I'd ride away from
the yard and back towards the yard and at an angle from the yard and
turn around and... Initially, I'd keep trotting and cantering in safe
directions, and I'd never canter closer than ten minutes walk to the
barn - but it's much better to have a short stretch towards the barn
followed by walking in another direction than to always trot and canter
in the same places.
And I'd keep initial rides short and boring.
And when I'm in the school, I'd work a bit, let the horse stretch all
the way to the ground, pick up the reins again... in short, I make
relaxation and a loose rein a part of my workout. I ask the horse to
bend and do transitions even when the rein is on the buckle - a loose
rein is not 'don't have to listen' time and picking up the reins isn't a
sign that something is happening now.'
Catja
--
writing blog @ http://beyond-elechan.livejournal.com
Ocean of Nuance
> Ocean of Nuance wrote:
(snip)
>> He was okay in company but only when in the lead, something I knew.
>
> How is he in the school with following/riding beside another horse,
> letting other horses move away? How is he in a field doing those
> exercises?
He will try to focus on there horses sometimes just like he does with
his image in the mirror but I have put that to bed.
>> A half hour away from the barn is much further than I can travel at my
>> barn. That explains the complete lack of yelling with me.
>
> Or maybe you ride him differently. Or he's grown up. Who knows.
Grown up between the summer and now?
I would bet my house he would yell with me at 1/2 out and he does not
yell when my instructor rides him on trails here.
>> He does not like being away from his buddies. He does not relax
>
> How relaxed is he in the school? Does he sigh when you get on, breathe
> deeply, and drop his head all the way to the ground? If not, what do you
> do to get him to that state?
He works correctly relaxed most of the time. I'm not good enough to get
anything of quality if he is not.
>> and
>> does want to be on contact or at least wants to know the rider is up there.
>
> Some horses are like that. Some horses want to have their hand held and
> might panic if the rider is absent. Some horses want the rider to be
> invisible. (And no, it's not related to how many aids you give or how
> strongly, but to your attitude while riding. It's a feel thing.) Some
> horses want you in the middle and can blow up either way.
>
> _Be_ there. Drape your seat and leg around him. Keep up a conversation
> on the reins. (Doesn't mean a short rein, just not dropping the
> conversation entirely.) _Ride_ him. Shoulder-fore, slowing down,
> transitions on the spot. Give him something to concentrate on. If
> something catches his attention, remain present and check whether he'll
> lend you an ear. (Don't allow him to lock all of his attention on
> something else. That's not safe.)
>
> If he were my horse, I'd ride him out every day. Not for a long hack,
> but for short work. And instead of a single long there-and-back, I'd go
> for a short loop - maybe even just around the outside of a field - then
> work in the arena for a bit, then take him out again. I'd ride away from
> the yard and back towards the yard and at an angle from the yard and
> turn around and... Initially, I'd keep trotting and cantering in safe
> directions, and I'd never canter closer than ten minutes walk to the
> barn - but it's much better to have a short stretch towards the barn
> followed by walking in another direction than to always trot and canter
> in the same places.
I though t about riding on trail only after a full session in the ring
just so see if he would muster up the effort not relax. But I actually
don't ride that long usually. I quit when I accomplish something and
it's usually by 45 minutes so he isn't tired.
> And I'd keep initial rides short and boring.
>
> And when I'm in the school, I'd work a bit, let the horse stretch all
> the way to the ground, pick up the reins again... in short, I make
> relaxation and a loose rein a part of my workout. I ask the horse to
> bend and do transitions even when the rein is on the buckle - a loose
> rein is not 'don't have to listen' time and picking up the reins isn't a
> sign that something is happening now.'
But I do all that now. I do on the buckle exercises at t ebeginning to
check that he is on my seat.
That doesn't translate to the trail for some reason.
sharon
cindi
wrote:
> But I do all that now. I do on the buckle exercises at t ebeginning to
> check that he is on my seat.
>
> That doesn't translate to the trail for some reason.
I suggest you don't worry about whether or not he "digs" the trail.
He's your horse, you pay his bills, and you aren't abusing him. Just
take him out, a lot. It doesn't sound like he's doing anything bad or
dangerous - it just sounds like he's not living up to your vision of
how you'd like him to be on the trail. So just keep taking him out
and maybe one day he will relax. You have ideas on what to try if
things get nerve-wracking, but I don't get the impression things get
nerve-wracking... You just aren't seeing the kind of relaxation you
would like him to have. And that's OK - wet saddle blankets might be
all he needs.
You might have to give up your ideas of how he should be going,
though, for it to be OK with *you* for him to not be relaxed on the
trail. You want to give him the support you feel like he needs on the
trail to get to a more relaxed state, and it doesn't work necessarily
the way it does in the arena, so just emotionally, it's a different
experience for you, and thus for him, and you are stuck with a chicken/
egg situation. So my advice would be just ride him out on the trail
and have as your goal not that he be relaxed, not that he be on your
seat, not that he not rush - just have as your goal that you go out
and come back with both of you in one piece. That sounds attainable,
and then you'll experience some success, and maybe you can relax about
it and not worry that he doesn't "dig" it, and then maybe he'll start
to relax... etc.
I can't emphasize enough how if you are even considering that he might
not like trail riding, if you are even considering that he won't
relax, how that will affect your ride. So lower your expectations to
something you can both manage - not getting hurt - and experience some
success, and think about and consider how you were successful at that,
and tell Pete how successful you both were at that one goal, and build
on that over time.
cindi
lace...@msn.com
Sharon,
I think you are expecting your horse to "relax" too much when on the
trails.
Laurel was so right when she said that a lot of times it isn't a tense
horse
but rather a tense rider that is the issue. I am totally on the trails
now with my
horse, but I used to be only a ring and dressage lesson rider.
There is a world of difference now in how I feel as compared to the
first
trips out of the ring or my field.
Dressage skills are there, staying centered et al., so you never
forget all that.
You say you want Pete to be relaxed. How do you define relaxed?
My mare is relaxed on the trails, but she is also very aware of what
is happening in her environment.
So you may look at her and think she is tense.
She is "on my seat" as you llike to say and stops with a simple whoa.
In tight spots she can turn on the hind like no other horse I've
ridden.
She has alerted me to bears, cougars and unsafe areas to go through.
We have a trust that is always a work in progress, she trusts that I
won't endanger us
and I trust her with my life on tricky trails.
This has not happened over night, it is now our fourth year of being
together,
and that's what it is, together.
Am I impressed with this mare, you bet I am.
I have just had her shoes taken off for the winter and added up the
hours
in our log book.
This summer we rode 268 hours and she averages between 5-9 mph.
You do the math.
So the 45 min 3 times a week maybe needs to be looked at.
If that is all you can fit in, then stay in the ring if you feel more
relaxed
and want to school the dressage moves
Make the reward for Pete a ride out of the ring instead of getting
off.
Make sure in your head you luvvvv trails.
Cindy addressed that well in her reply.
It is a different territory and maybe neither you nor him are not
ready yet.
Best of luck with your riding Sharon
Lacey
Ocean of Nuance
> Make sure in your head you luvvvv trails.
> Cindy addressed that well in her reply.
> It is a different territory and maybe neither you nor him are not
> ready yet.
To you and Cindi,
Unfortunately, there is no connection between my expectations and what
happens. I have had great rides expecting the worst and bad rides
expecting the best. Zero correlation usually.
It's like shooting fish in a barrel to just claim I or any lower level
ammy is causing this by being nervous on trails. But then you have to
explain why he is the same way with my instructor. He had ample
opportunity this summer to dig it more with her. And if I'm nervous I
am certainly not aware of it.
Last, if there are dressage riders who go out on trails more than me,
especially over the years, I haven't met them. There are many people
who do far more trails but they aren't splitting their time except Carol G.
sharon
Tamara in TN
wrote:
>
> Last, if there are dressage riders who go out on trails more than me,
> especially over the years, I haven't met them. There are many people
> who do far more trails but they aren't splitting their time except Carol G.
>
you can contact Lisa Darling (my website or UDBB as exvet) she spends
LOTS of desert trail time with her horses including the 4th level (?)
critter
see again also her essay I posted here, where she talks about the
influence
the rider has over the horse unknowingly
Tamara in TN
MA Sandy
wrote:
Gale Kapiloff, a local rider, shows Gran Prix dressage with horses she
has trained herself from Training on up. She trail rides as much, if
not more, than she does ring work. In her opinion, the trail work
makes her horses MUCH more bombproof in the ring by introducing the
horse to the wider world. Granted, an n=1 so not statistically
significant, but......
Sandy
Tamara in TN
wrote:
> It's like shooting fish in a barrel to just claim I or any lower level
> ammy is causing this by being nervous on trails. But then you have to
> explain why he is the same way with my instructor. He had ample
> opportunity this summer to dig it more with her. And if I'm nervous I
> am certainly not aware of it.
he is nervous because he is afraid...horses are not more complex
than that....
you must make him brave...that is the goal of the rider
Tamara in TN
Hunter Hampton
<CDHO...@HIGHLAND.NET> wrote:
>
>he is nervous because he is afraid...horses are not more complex
>than that....
>
>you must make him brave...that is the goal of the rider
Bingo. When I got Bailey he was afraid.... when he finally got
confidence it was after he got confidence in me. It took a while, and
a lot of wet blankets.
Hunter
rayk...@rnsmte.com
"Tamara in TN" <CDHO...@HIGHLAND.NET> wrote in message
news:55832888-15d8-41bf...@g23g2000vbr.googlegroups.com...
>
> Last, if there are dressage riders who go out on trails more than me,
> especially over the years, I haven't met them. There are many people
> who do far more trails but they aren't splitting their time except Carol
> G.
>
Stupid lotlizard
I'm sure many on here remember your total distain for trailrideing.
It's real easy to look up your old posts
Dawn J-L
wrote:
> On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 05:12:12 -0800 (PST), Tamara in TN
>
>
> >he is nervous because he is afraid...horses are not more complex
> >than that....
>
> >you must make him brave...that is the goal of the rider
>
> Bingo. When I got Bailey he was afraid.... when he finally got
> confidence it was after he got confidence in me. It took a while, and
> a lot of wet blankets.
>
> Hunter
IME, the vast majority of riders (including some upper level riders
and pros --crikey but AvG springs to mind) do NOT have their horse's
confidence. OTOH, some "low level" and pleasure/casual riders who
lack refined riding skills DO have the trust of their horses. I have
always been good at gaining the trust/confidence of animals --
including horses so it has always been the foundation upon which I
build the riding part. Certainly the temperament and handling history
of the horse plays a part in how easy or difficult it is to earn that
particular horse's confidence. Earning the trust of hot, nervous, and/
or poorly handled (or abused) horses will be more difficult than
earning the trust of quiet, tolerant, and/or well handled ones.
This is one area where a lot of riders of all skill levels might
benefit from considering the teachings of horsemen like Mark Rashid,
Bill Dorrance, Leslie Desmond, etc. (There's good stuff to be gleaned
from many classicists, though the subject is usually referenced more
obliquely than with the "natural horsemanship" folks of the sort I
mentioned above.)
When I work with young horses, I privilege the establishment of a
trusting relationship with the handler/rider above any performance/
competitive goals. IMO, most young horses are pushed too far too fast
to attain performance goals. This not only strains their physical
structure, it impedes their ability to have full confidence in their
rider/handler leading to all kinds of behavioral issues. Many horses
are trained only to the point of tolerating human interference rather
than submitting with trust. When such horses encounter a confidence
challenge or fearful stimulus they do NOT look to their human rider/
handler for guidance, but instead they react according to their nature
as prey animals with some level of expression of nervousness while
tuning out the rider/handler to some degree. When you have a horse's
full trust/confidence, that horse will respond to the handler's/
rider's commands even in the face of pain or fear.
--Dawn JL
Carl
wrote:
> Last, if there are dressage riders who go out on trails more than me,
> especially over the years, I haven't met them. There are many people
> who do far more trails but they aren't splitting their time except Carol G.
I've known quite a few . . . my old coach, for instance, used to hack
her horses often. When she did not get out on real trails, she will
hacked the pastures at her place several times a week per horse. That
said, I know more who seldom trail ride than who often do, so the
trend is to be ring bound. Lots of show horses live a life like that
in all the disciplines.
Ocean of Nuance
Well everyone involved agrees he is not a brave horse. That is
precisely why I asked my instructor to work on it. He is a tough nut to
crack apparently.
He could not do eventing in my opinion because of this.
He behaves identically with me and my instructor. I describe it and she
knows exactly what I'm talking abut. She describes it and I know
exactly what she's talking about. We are on the same page. Now Pete
needs to get on the page.
Rider nervousness... when all you have is a hammer everything is a nail.
sharon
Ocean of Nuance
> On Dec 16, 6:38 am, Ocean of Nuance <lizRMOVzardwo...@nc.rr.com>
> wrote:
>> Last, if there are dressage riders who go out on trails more than me,
>> especially over the years, I haven't met them. There are many people
>> who do far more trails but they aren't splitting their time except Carol G.
>
> I've known quite a few . . . my old coach, for instance, used to hack
> her horses often.
Eventer or straight dressage? I was referring to the latter.
sharon
Laurel Reddick
The only way they get braver is by doing it over and over. Sharon
most horses act like Pete in the beginning when you take them out on
the trails. It is only by putting the miles on (i.e. the wet saddle
blanket) that the horse settles into the routine and that you settle
into the routine. I'm not talking about little 1 hour hacks. And I
would bet you big bucks that Eileen could take Pete and have him
enjoying himself and listening to her within a week out on the trails.
When I went on the big cattle drive a few years ago, I used Curtis'
horse Cash. He is dead broke and is multi-talented. He does dressage
clinics, jumps, roping, cutting, and primarily is a ranch horse that
moves cattle. I was given Cash because he is so well trained and
calm. Well I was thrilled to be on a cattle drive, but that thrilled
feeling was promptly conveyed to Cash. He started walking faster and
his head starting getting higher the longer I was on him <g>. Monika
started looking a little worried as she watched the evolution
happening. At one point a few miles along, he decided on his own to
chase some loose cattle. I intercepted pretty quick and did a
disengaging turn so Monika at least relaxed a bit knowing I could stop
him. He was a very savvy horse and got my number pretty quickly and I
am truly a very calm rider--but I was out of my comfort zone seeing
bulls fighting, knowing there were bears and wolves around. At one
point Monika left hubby and I saying she had to get some loose cattle
and said, "Stay put". When she was out of sight, Cash and I had our
great adventure of him doing his cowy thing. He spotted cattle
drifting and set to rounding them up. I held on for dear life as he
weaved and bobbed all over gathering those cattle. I had a great time
in the end, but Cash knew I didn't know squat and that I wasn't going
to take care of him so he was taking charge and doing his job. I
think the same thing in microcosm happens with you and Pete. As an
old cowboy says, "Ride your horse like he ain't got any brain. You're
the brain and he does what you say."
Laurel
Hunter Hampton
<tjon...@together.net> wrote:
> Earning the trust of hot, nervous, and/
>or poorly handled (or abused) horses will be more difficult than
>earning the trust of quiet, tolerant, and/or well handled ones.
Jeez, Bailey was all three... hot, nervous and abused )c:
He totally trusts me, but in the rare time when I've put someone else
on him he reverts right back to the horse when I bought him.
Needless to say I would change horses and get back on him and you
could visually see him relax.
Poor guy...
Hunter
Nancy DeMarco
> Last, if there are dressage riders who go out on trails more than me,
> especially over the years, I haven't met them. There are many people
> who do far more trails but they aren't splitting their time except Carol G.
These people do. :) http://www.rhhanoverians.com/images/uploads/rh.pdf
I like Verne a lot. The website is generally a mess though.
Nancy
Grizzly
You and your instructor may both be telegraphing nervousness to the
horse and not even realize it. In a recent test performed to see if
rider would somehow clue a horse to anticipate something scarey, a group
of people were asked to lead their horses one at a time past a person
whom they were told would open an umbrella as they passed. The person
holding the umbrella did not open the umbrella, but the horses spooked
in the same manner they would have if the person had. Both of you have
similar experiences with Pete and would anticipate spooking at various
objects. Just a little bit of tension either in your voice or your seat
would be enough to set the horse off. In this case it is a hammer/nail
situation as it seems that Pete would likely do better on trails with
someone who was completely confident in the horse. Sometimes all it
takes is getting out there on the trail with somebody on an old seasoned
schoolie leading the ride. If the horse leading is bomb proof, your boy
would likely follow along without getting ten feet tall staring at a
rock or a tree, or a mailbox..or garbage cans or gasp...pigs..as long as
you maintain a loose easy relaxed seat and demeanor.
Ruth Baltopoulos
> Well everyone involved agrees he is not a brave horse. That is
> precisely why I asked my instructor to work on it. He is a tough nut to
> crack apparently.
Horses are not "brave" by nature, nor are all instructors.
> He could not do eventing in my opinion because of this.
> He behaves identically with me and my instructor. I describe it and she
> knows exactly what I'm talking abut. She describes it and I know
> exactly what she's talking about. We are on the same page. Now Pete
> needs to get on the page.
Yes, you may very well be on the same page. I'm presuming that your
instructor is a dressage person, so who knows what her level of comfort
is on the trail?
> Rider nervousness... when all you have is a hammer everything is a nail.
And when all you have is pat, defensive responses, the problem may never
be solved. But that may be OK, too :)
--
Ruth B
cindi
wrote:
>
> It's like shooting fish in a barrel to just claim I or any lower level
> ammy is causing this by being nervous on trails. But then you have to
> explain why he is the same way with my instructor. He had ample
> opportunity this summer to dig it more with her. And if I'm nervous I
> am certainly not aware of it.
I haven't read the rest of the replies yet but I just want to say I
don't really think it matters who's causing what, in your case or
similar cases (when nerves are really up and horses are caused to
behave very dangerously, then it matters, for sure, but in your case,
I think it's a very subtle thing, not putting lives at risk...) I
think it matters more that you just get out and do it, regardless. I
don't for a second think a person can be fully in charge of their
expectations and what they are transmitting to the horse, but I also
don't think it really matters. Just do it. ;-) Don't make excuses
about him not liking it, don't worry about what movement is what
level, just trail ride him.
cindi
MA Sandy
>
> - Show quoted text -
Bad form to answer my own post, but just found this link to a farm at
which Gail teaches dressage lessons.
http://www.smullenstables.com/clinics.htm
So, not an eventer, but FEI level dressage rider and trainer.
Sandy
Ocean of Nuance
We aren't at the beginning.
And he had a lot of time this summer with my instructor working on it.
sharon
Ocean of Nuance
Spooking isn't the problem though.
And if neither of us can know in principle if we are nervous or not then
it's really hopeless.
sharon
Tamara in TN
wrote:
> He behaves identically with me and my instructor. I . Now Pete
> needs to get on the page.
>
> Rider nervousness... when all you have is a hammer everything is a nail.
>
I don't know about that..you both know Pete is nervous and respond
to him in that way...so he expects "it" what ever it is and that
reinforces his nerves
Tamara in TN
Ocean of Nuance
You get horses in for training, yes?
Have you ever gotten a "rehab" in where the story was:
- fine in the ring, stays on seat, etc.
- rushes on trail but still obedient
- continually needs correction not to rush but always obedient
- has never run away, bolt, rear, buck, etc. on trail
- sometimes won't keep at least level balance on trail
where the trails i question are not extensive and the horse has been on
them a million times.
Can you give me some idea of how many horses you have rehabbed with that
complaint from the owner?
Thanks in advance.
sharon
Jane Saranac
"cindi" <alliso...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ea56460f-1aae-412b...@g1g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
Just do it. ;-) Don't make excuses
about him not liking it, don't worry about what movement is what
level, just trail ride him.
cindi
============
Yeah, I would go with the Nike reply in this case too : ). Especially since
Sharon has said over and over again that Pete doesn't bolt and he doesn't
spook. Given all that obviously he doesn't spin, either (which is Pal's
M.O. when he gets real nervous) so he sounds like an ideal trailriding
partner-- there isn't anything Sharon and Pete need to "get over" Pete
doing, it just sounds like he needs comfort from experience.
It's pretty clear to me that the analytical skills that make for a good
lawyer (able to see danger potential 20 miles down the road) interfere with
riding. One of the biggest things I have had to do is give all that up when
I get on my horse. Breathe, feel, trust, and not overthink. It may not work
for everyone but it has helped me hundredfold. And positive experiences
help you do that too. Practice makes for experience which decreases
nervousness even in the overanalyzer : ).
Bill Kambic
<lizRMOVz...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
>Have you ever gotten a "rehab" in where the story was:
>
>- fine in the ring, stays on seat, etc.
>- rushes on trail but still obedient
>- continually needs correction not to rush but always obedient
>- has never run away, bolt, rear, buck, etc. on trail
>- sometimes won't keep at least level balance on trail
>
>where the trails i question are not extensive and the horse has been on
>them a million times.
You're describing a certain gray mare I ride. :-)
She does not do this all the time, but she will, from time to time,
get quite "up" and need a "firm hand" to ensure she stays "focused" on
the job at hand.
Of course there was the time she didn't want to pass the giant, black
spider at the exit of the corn maze...:-)
Not every horse is steady every minute of every day. Some are more
steady than others. You just have to ride the horse under you, not
the horse you wish were under you.
Hunter Hampton
wrote:
>
>Not every horse is steady every minute of every day. Some are more
>steady than others. You just have to ride the horse under you, not
>the horse you wish were under you.
If you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with <g>
Hunter
Bill Kambic
Indeed. ;-)
Tamara in TN
wrote:
> You get horses in for training, yes?
yes on occasion
>
> Have you ever gotten a "rehab" in where the story was:
Pete is not a rehad...he simply is not a trail horse (yet)
>
> - fine in the ring, stays on seat, etc.
> - rushes on trail but still obedient
> - continually needs correction not to rush but always obedient
> - has never run away, bolt, rear, buck, etc. on trail
> - sometimes won't keep at least level balance on trail
you need to define "rushing" and "level balance" for me as you and
I speak two different languages where horses are concerned...
are you expecting him to keep the exact tempo
and cadence on the trails as he keeps on manicured rings ?
this he cannot do for various reasons...
you can rate a horse from the seat all day on the trails, but you
cannot ask
for an "autopilot" on undulating ground....
> where the trails i question are not extensive and the horse has been on
> them a million times.
a million times done incorrectly only reinforces what ever his drama
is with the
trail
>
> Can you give me some idea of how many horses you have rehabbed with that
> complaint from the owner?
he is not a REHAB !!!!!!! he has been a ring rider his whole life with
you....so
he is _not broke_ to do what you are asking and your trainer must not
know how
to get him broke to what you are asking...
which is why a million times later it still sucks for all of you and
in
that case,yes he is not much different from any other horse I have
ever trained...
Tamara in TN
Cricket
"Bill Kambic" <wjka...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:g9eji5lv0cvr6fa2c...@4ax.com...
Jack has heard the phrase "He'll get over it or be mad a long time" more
than once. In reference to stumps, in particular. That horse can swap ends
quicker than anything I ever saw.
Ice may be mad a long time...the phrase "Oh well" comes to mind. I'm not
exactly thrilled about working my fanny off to feed her little pink butt -
she doesn't need to love everything I do with her either. But, while she's
cranked to the nines half the time, I think she's still having fun - just an
adrenaline junky. Some human critters pay good money to ride roller
coasters, some horses get cranked boogering at rabid killer chipmunks.
I've got several customers with horses (almost always geldings) that I
describe as "If he was human, he'd be the guy who gets into a bar fight
every Saturday night...and gets up with a black eye Sunday morning, happy as
a clam, and goes back the next weekend and does it again."
Cricket
Catja Pafort
> Have you ever gotten a "rehab" in where the story was:
>
> - fine in the ring, stays on seat, etc.
> - rushes on trail but still obedient
> - continually needs correction not to rush but always obedient
> - has never run away, bolt, rear, buck, etc. on trail
*Nobody* has a rehab like that. That's not a rehab. A rehab is a horse
that somewhere along the way - because the owner paid no attention or
was an asshole or both - picked up some highly dangerous habits and
which needs not just to be trained, but to be trained NOW, and by
someone with more of a clue than ordinary people have, before it hurts
itself and other people.
You have a horse that you haven't trained well in one aspect of what I'd
expect an allrounder to be able to do. The fact that he goes out and is
obedient with someone who is not comfortable riding on the trails shows
that he's not exactly a hard case.
> - sometimes won't keep at least level balance on trail
OMG stop the presses! He's a horse after all!
What do you expect? Unless a horse is built uphill with great gaits what
you'll see when he's tired or distracted is less than stellar balance.
And not to talk down Pete, but there's a reason why draft crosses aren't
the breed of choice for dressage riders: they are finding it _harder_ to
work in balance, they haven't been bred for it. At the lower levels,
good trainnig can overcome that, but it'll always need more skill in
training and riding to get a horse balanced for whom it isn't a natural
mode of moving, and it'll always need more effort for a horse bred for
slow and steady work to do the kind of athletic work riders expect.
That's horsemanship 101. If you take him out on the trails, you make it
harder for him: the ground isn't even and elastic, *and* there's more to
distract him. So the quality of gaits will not be as good as when you're
working in a level, groomed area. That's going to happen with _every_
horse to a degree.
> where the trails i question are not extensive and the horse has been on
> them a million times.
If you take him out every day, several times a day, for the next year,
you'll see a different. Twice a week is not 'a million times.'
> Can you give me some idea of how many horses you have rehabbed with that
> complaint from the owner?
Right now, you're coming across as the kind of whingeing unreasonable
owner that no trainer would want to work with. You've been told what the
cure is: wet saddle blankets. Not just riding out occasionally, riding
out every day. And you've been told by several people that your
expectations are unrealistic, and that the whole 'Petey doesn't dig
trails' has much more to do with you and your lack of trailriding
experience than it has with his behaviour.
If you want that horse schooled, school him. Or give up. As long as he
has turnout and an outdoor school to work in, he's probably not going to
lack anything.
Catja
--
writing blog @ http://beyond-elechan.livejournal.com
Ocean of Nuance
> with someone who is not comfortable riding on the trails
Who are you talking about?
sharon