What happens when you don't use eye protection
Buddy Matlosz
Bill Waller
wrote:
>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2103790691
>
I seriously doubt that the "boys" in the photograph lost their sight because
they did not us eye protection while running lathes. I know that I did not
loose my sight while running a lathe without eye protection, I was born that
way. I learned to turn in an institution similar to the NY Institute, and gee
whiz, I still have all of the parts I was born with, even the two eyes that
don't work as well as yours.
I find your subject line to be typical of the ignorant bigoted society that we
live in which has no knowledge, either through blatant stupidity or cultured
avoidance, of what those of us with disabilities can do .
As for eye protection and other safety precautions (devices), I use them when
they are appropriate. Yes, I finally put the blade guard back on my 12" RAS. It
made my next door neighbor nervous whenever I used it with a naked blade. :-)
As for the photograph, I found it historically interesting. We did not have the
barrier rail where I went to school. I still have the turnings that I made when
I was 11 years old, a couple of lamps made from old bowling pins that we used
as blanks and a (how can I say this delicately?) smoking stand. Everything we
did was in maple.
Unfortunately, with the modern mainstreaming of "damaged" students, many will
never get the chance to find out if they can do neat and interesting things,
like make bowls and candlesticks from chunks of wood, make furniture, wire a
house, or restore an 1884 Victorian house.
Bill Waller
Bethel Park, PA
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Owen Lowe
Bill Waller <wsw...@adelphia.net> wrote:
> I seriously doubt that the "boys" in the photograph lost their sight because
> they did not us eye protection while running lathes. I know that I did not
> loose my sight while running a lathe without eye protection, I was born that
> way. I learned to turn in an institution similar to the NY Institute, and gee
> whiz, I still have all of the parts I was born with, even the two eyes that
> don't work as well as yours.
Yes, to me it appears to be more promoting learned skills than
cautioning against the risks of turning.
Interesting tidbit: back when I was in art/photo school, it was
mentioned that E. Kodak employed blind people in the manufacture of
film. The facility had to be light-less due to the nature of the product
and sighted employees had a huge learning curve in trusting their
abilities in the dark. Don't know if it is/was true, but I appreciated
the thought someone may have given the solution.
_____
Member in good standing since Jan. 3, 2002
AAW Chapter:
Northwest Woodturners, Portland, Oregon
_____
"Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read."
- Groucho Marx
Chuck
wrote:
>I find your subject line to be typical of the ignorant bigoted society that we
>live in which has no knowledge, either through blatant stupidity or cultured
>avoidance, of what those of us with disabilities can do .
Hey Bill,
I could be wrong, but I think Buddy's subject line was a thin attempt
at humor. I don't believe he really thought that the kids in the
picture lost their sight while turning.
--
Chuck *#:^)
chaz3913(AT)yahoo(DOT)com
Anti-spam sig: please remove "NO SPAM" from e-mail address to reply.
<><
September 11, 2001 - Never Forget
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Lyn J. Mangiameli
I agree with four of the five paragraphs you wrote. Many of this group know that I spent over five years doing research at one of the best blind rehabilitation centers in this country (which, of course, is really an equally low vision rehabilitation center). I've developed some of the best (of course I think they are the very best) means to measure cognitive abilities without using vision, and have seperate norms specifically for the visually impaired (which, actually differ very little from the general populations, but it's nice to be able to prove that).
The Western Blind Rehabilitation Center where I conducted much of my research had an almost unbelievable woodshop; two Delta Unisaws, 20 inch bandsaw, radial arm saw, panel saw, two powered mitre saws, jointers, gigantic Powermatic planer, and two large Delta lathes. The folks that were interested used or learned to use any of that equipment they wanted. I saw lots of fancy rolling pins and segmented salad bowls produced on the lathes. In the twenty five year history of that center, to my knowledge there had never been a single significant injury using a power tool.
I very much understand what a visually impaired person is capable of, can do with a little (and sometimes, a lot) of training, and wants to do for themselves. I also agree that a strictly mainstream environment does not offer those with disabilities the opportunities to learn the special techniques and take on the greater challeges that will allow them to perform maximally.
But in professional interviews, casual conversations and friendships with over a thousand students and the center staff (many of whom were either low vision or fully blind), I never heard a single one rant about an "ignorant bigoted society .... etc." Rather I always rather pleasantly noted the absence of rankor towards those with more normal vision, and the desire of the students (and by students, I am referring to persons aged from 18 to literally 98) to be a regular part of the larger society, rather than perceiving themselves a part from it. If you want knowledge to be gained by the fully sighted, and more importantly, if you want the fully sighted to have an unselfconscious respect for the visually impaired, you will be little served by ranting about the "blantant stupidity" of the "bigoted society."
There is much more that can be said, tales told of visually impaired woodworkers, and agruments that can be presented on both sides, but mostly I just want the general body of woodturners to know that the general body of the visually impaired persons do not rant, even in their private moments, about the blatant stupidity of a bigoted society.
Lyn
Bill Waller
You do present a very pretty picture, but I must ask two questions:
1. How many times have you personally been denied employment because of a
disability?
2. How many times have you personally been removed from a position because of
changes in management that cannot abide the thought of a person with a
disability earning a living?
Yes, right now I am just a little bitter. I worked for the same employer for 17
years. They even thought enough of my skill level to spend big bucks to
transfer me from one part of the country to another, only to dump me later when
there was a management transition.
I "rant" because some insensitive individual makes fun of and mocks an entire
community and but I must be wrong because I am part of that maligned community,
and that is "bad". Sorry to have offended you and anyone else in this (usually)
friendly group. But, as I can tell from your response and one other, perhaps,
here to, even as a lurker, who with great appreciation has learned a lot I
should just keep my mouth shut. After all, a person who is VI has NO right to
express him/herself. Right? Walk a mile in my shoes and then talk to me about
"rant".
I am admonished, and will now crawl back into the hole you have carved out for
me because I have an opinion.
On Wed, 22 May 2002 18:04:38 GMT, "Lyn J. Mangiameli" <kuma...@earthlink.net>
wrote:
W.A. (Bill) Flowers
news:qv1oeuoranp5bp6sr...@4ax.com...
> Yes, right now I am just a little bitter. I worked for the same employer
for 17
> years. They even thought enough of my skill level to spend big bucks to
> transfer me from one part of the country to another, only to dump me later
when
> there was a management transition.
Bill,
You are angry and hurt and you have a right to feel that way. But please
don't paint everyone with the same wide brush; not all people/employers are
alike.
When I hire someone I truly don't care whether I hire a man or a woman, or
the color of their skin, and I'm not just saying that because the law
requires that I do. I don't care if they have all their body parts of if
they are all working properly. I don't care what level of education they
have achieved -- after all, I never finished university and I'm running the
software department and am a partner in my firm! I don't care if they don't
have any religious beliefs, share mine (rather unlikely) or dance naked
under the full moon. I don't care if they came from a foreign country (I
did) or speak with an accent (people claim I do -- I can't tell).
I DO care whether they can do the work and be productive members of my team,
and whether they can get along with the other team members. I care very
much whether my customers will benefit from having that person working for
me to help them solve problems.
Please Bill, find some counseling to help you adjust to the changes which
have been forced on you, and to move ahead with your life and your career.
And please don't go crawling into a hole, whether it was dug by you or
anyone else. If you feel the need to speak out and be heard, this is a good
place to do so.
There are good people here who will listen. If venting your feelings among
people with whom you share the common bond of the love woodturning will help
you, then I say vent away! Rant and rave all you want. You will be heard.
If you want to email me privately to discuss any of this further please do
so. Don't reply to this message but send mail to wflowers AT gte DOT com
(substitute the appropriate characters as needed).
--
Another Bill (Flowers)
Clearwater, FL
Owen Lowe
Bill, this started off-topic and has continued down that path, so this
will be my last post to the subject - meaning you may have the last word
if you wish...
I'm sorry you lost your job after such a long stint with the company.
And, I hope you do realize the same situation regularly happens to
sighted, pretty, less-than-pretty, thin, fat, black, white, etc. types
of people every day. My wife's company regularly buys smaller companies
and the first thing they do is eliminate positions - it doesn't matter
to the new management that someone just moved across the country, had a
baby, bought a new house or anything else. It's just the reality of
business and corporate decisions - there is no such thing as job
security to any great degree.
Yes, it was insensitive to post the pic-url as a joke concerning losing
one's vision. I didn't read any followup posts inticating it was
supported by others and would have probably just passed it by with a
shrug as I didn't find it all that clever, accurate or anything else,
however, your post caused me to think about the original and come to the
conclusion that it wasn't in the best taste and, yes, could be
anger-causing to someone with severe vision deficiencies. Sometimes it
helps, as you said, to learn of another's perspective to realize the
inappropriateness of certain actions and behaviors. OK. You and I seem
to be clear on this, few others have contributed and I didn't find Lyn's
post in defense of the "joke" either- though his words may mean
something different to you.
> But, as I can tell from your response and one other, perhaps,
> here to, even as a lurker, who with great appreciation has learned a lot I
> should just keep my mouth shut. After all, a person who is VI has NO right to
> express him/herself. Right? Walk a mile in my shoes and then talk to me about
> "rant".
>
> I am admonished, and will now crawl back into the hole you have carved out for
> me because I have an opinion.
If you choose to be a bit overly dramatic in your response, it is of
course up to you, but I'd encourage you to take the steps down the road
to being a participant instead of a lurker. I'd be very interested in
hearing of the level of your vision impairment and how you approach
woodturning.
Buddy Matlosz
"Chuck" <chaz391...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3cec03c0...@news.capital.net...
> On Wed, 22 May 2002 10:11:55 -0400, Bill Waller <wsw...@adelphia.net>
> wrote:
>
> >I find your subject line to be typical of the ignorant bigoted society
that we
> >live in which has no knowledge, either through blatant stupidity or
cultured
> >avoidance, of what those of us with disabilities can do .
>
> Hey Bill,
>
> I could be wrong, but I think Buddy's subject line was a thin attempt
> at humor. I don't believe he really thought that the kids in the
> picture lost their sight while turning.
You're correct, Chuck, and I plan to adopt a new "think before you post"
policy. Actually, I find it quite remarkable that the visually impaired can
perform the woodworking functions Lyn mentioned, even more so considering
they seem to accomplish them more safely than those with normal vision.
Apologies to any who may have been offended.
B.
Owen Lowe
> Unfortunately, with the modern mainstreaming of "damaged" students, many will
> never get the chance to find out if they can do neat and interesting things,
> like make bowls and candlesticks from chunks of wood, make furniture, wire a
> house, or restore an 1884 Victorian house.
Note: quote above references vision impaired students
These days fewer and fewer of ALL students will ever have the
opportunity either. I attended an all day demo by Soren Berger, from New
Zealand, on Tuesday. He briefly addressed the topic of the loss of
practical skills learning in schools today and, (what I interpreted as)
the natural evolution of society, technology and the direction of the
world in general. Perhaps it should be our (and AAW's) primary effort to
mentor the youth; to show them that the tree growing across the street
has value in many diverse ways - trees don't just serve as place keepers
for a new housing project.
In many respects I consider myself, at 40, to be the tail end of the
final generation which was mentored by their fathers and grandfathers
who (m?) had a practical and everyday knowledge of simple building, hand
tools and making items for their own homes. I see great value in self
sufficiency - however small my self-sufficiency may be. ;)
Recently Oregon PBS aired Frontier House, where three families were
plopped onto Montana rangeland with 1883 housing, clothing, supplies,
and implements for 5 months. Their task was to come to terms with
everyday life, struggles and setbacks of the time. As I'm sure most who
viewed the program, I pondered for quite a while (still am) about how I
might have faired as one of the families. How much practical knowledge
do I posess with respect to farm animals, the weather, providing
shelter, growing food crops, etc..
One of the most interesting aspects of the program was the followup with
the 3 families a couple months after they returned to 2001. One family
was just unbelieveable with how out of touch with themselves, each other
and their surroundings that their 2001 existance allows and encourages -
they seemed to take nothing from their 5 month experience.
To bring this back to woodturning, how many kids would even connect
trees with cooking and eating implements, housing, animal enclosures, or
furniture? It seems like such rudimentary knowledge, but perhaps that's
because I was one of the last to pass through Jr high shop and also have
the mentoring from those who relied on such skills in their everyday
lives.
Lyn J. Mangiameli
I know you know this, because you follow both groups, but it might be useful for
others to be aware of Doug Stowes program to reintroduce hand skill activities to
the school. I've forgotten the URL, but it's worth checking out.
Lyn
Nova
> Owen,
> I know you know this, because you follow both groups, but it might be useful for
> others to be aware of Doug Stowes program to reintroduce hand skill activities to
> the school. I've forgotten the URL, but it's worth checking out.
> Lyn
>
For those interested in Doug Stowe's program, "The Wisdom of the Hands", here's the
link Lyn referred to:
http://www.dougstowe.com/cshs/wisdomofhands.htm
--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
Leif Thorvaldson
"Owen Lowe" <onln...@easystreet.com> wrote in message
news:onlnlowe-9F8EA8...@corp.supernews.com...> SNIP>
> Recently Oregon PBS aired Frontier House, where three families were
> plopped onto Montana rangeland with 1883 housing, clothing, supplies,
> and implements for 5 months. Their task was to come to terms with
> everyday life, struggles and setbacks of the time. As I'm sure most who
> viewed the program, I pondered for quite a while (still am) about how I
> might have faired as one of the families. How much practical knowledge
> do I posess with respect to farm animals, the weather, providing
> shelter, growing food crops, etc..
>
> One of the most interesting aspects of the program was the followup with
> the 3 families a couple months after they returned to 2001. One family
> was just unbelieveable with how out of touch with themselves, each other
> and their surroundings that their 2001 existance allows and encourages -
> they seemed to take nothing from their 5 month experience.
What I found even more interesting (my sister told me about the program!)
was that only one of the families would have survived the winter. Talk
about being out of touch!
Leif
Dave Sifers
I think the angry responder knew that.
It seems everyone in this country has to have someone to blame. Well
guess what? Life ain't fair. EVERYONE has some kind of handicap,
some are larger than others, some are MUCH larger.
There's no free lunch, some jerks get filthy rich, and there's no
drinking fountains in the desert.
America needs to grow a thicker skin and a sense of humor.
I think it is intresting that the boys in the picture were learning a
craft in a country where they might expect to be able to make use of
it. Nowadays the PC figure we should just cut them a check and then
we won't have to feel obligated.
Dave in Colorado
"Not a a-----e, but I play one in real life."
Owen Lowe
"Leif Thorvaldson" <Le...@mashell.com> wrote:
> What I found even more interesting (my sister told me about the program!)
> was that only one of the families would have survived the winter. Talk
> about being out of touch!
Well you might be surprised what you don't know about living under those
conditions - I know I was and I was a Bouy Scout fer Pete's sake. What
makes a hen lay an egg? How much hay does one need to feed a cow through
a 6-7 month winter? How much firewood for cooking and heat? How much
food to put up? Could I take care of practically any medical emergency?
Could I ensure my family's safety from wild animals? (There was a bear
incident on the show.) These are really just rhetorical but they made me
wonder how I would fare and how out of touch I would be with the
knowledge required AND the loss of general knowledge that just a few
generations back was a necessity for survival.
I missed the first hour or so in which the ground rules and pre-1883
preparations were done, but what I was able to gather from the
evaluations at the end, all three families were advised to cut firewood,
cut firewood, cut firewood. If they weren't sleeping or doing another
chore, they were advised to... cut firewood.
The one family who probably would have come out of winter OK were young
newlyweds and didn't have any kids (the others had 2 and 3 children) -
that situation was acknowledged and commented on by the historical
experts as probably one of the reasons they seemed so well prepared -
there was less need to tend to others and more time to... cut firewood.
That and enough hay for the livestock seemed to be the biggest sticking
points.
I was a bit disturbed by some outcomes at the ending of the program and
mulled it over for quite a few days afterwards. I won't tell why that
was (unless this discussion goes further) but would encourage anyone
even mildly interested to watch it if it makes the rounds to your PBS
station.
Back to turning... If the modern world ceased to exist tomorrow, how
many of us could cobble together a working non-electric lathe, sharpen
tools by hand and produce useful everyday items?
Owen Lowe
"Lyn J. Mangiameli" <kuma...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> I know you know this, because you follow both groups, but it might be useful
> for
> others to be aware of Doug Stowes program to reintroduce hand skill
> activities to
> the school. I've forgotten the URL, but it's worth checking out.
Yes it's a wonderful and commendable project.
There's a school here in Portland that is unconventional in that what
the kids learn is applied to the real world. For example, an assignment
might be to plan and carry out all aspects of a meal for a group of
people. The kids have to assemle a grocery list from the recipes,
actually go shopping for the items and buy sufficient quantities, return
to the school and prepare the entire meal. They're actually applying
math, chemistry, finances, etc. in the realm of everyday living.
I think the application of concepts is what's missing in schools and
where programs like woodworking and home economics have great value. I'd
much rather see the demise of school funded sports than the
disappearance of shop and home ec - too, how many schools have music
programs on the chopping block and yet sports continues on? (Ah jeez,
now I'm going off on a rant.)
Mike Paulson
>>final generation which was mentored by their fathers and grandfathers
>>who (m?) had a practical and everyday knowledge of simple building, hand
>>tools and making items for their own homes.
When I was moving to Fort Collins a couple years ago, my realtor remarked
that there was a big shortage of skilled handymen. It seems the current
crop of young adults don't know how to fix a screen door, clean a clogged
p-trap, or replace a light switch, and they are basically helpless in
their own houses. Maybe if we get 'em turning they will realize if they
can do that maybe they can do some of those other things as well.
-mike paulson, fort collins, co