Lately, aside from trying to decide where to put the toolrest, I've been turning bowls with tops/covers. I hesitate to call them boxes as my understanding of readings in this group seem to lean in the direction that boxes are turned end grain while bowls are turned cross grain. Anyways, those bowls with tops I have turned to date have all have a simple rounded top and have NOT been tight fitting. I believe that the top oughta come off easy for most items - candy, nuts, paper clips, and what nots. But now I consider the finial. I've seen many fancy ones and most if not all have been turned separate from the top and then attached later. Would it be safe to assume that some here have one-piece tops, with the top and finial combined?
>Lately, aside from trying to decide where to put the toolrest, I've >been turning bowls with tops/covers. I hesitate to call them boxes as >my understanding of readings in this group seem to lean in the >direction that boxes are turned end grain while bowls are turned cross >grain. Anyways, those bowls with tops I have turned to date have all >have a simple rounded top and have NOT been tight fitting. I believe >that the top oughta come off easy for most items - candy, nuts, paper >clips, and what nots. But now I consider the finial. I've seen many >fancy ones and most if not all have been turned separate from the top >and then attached later. >Would it be safe to assume that some here have one-piece tops, with >the top and finial combined?
I can't speak for everyone, and I'm surely no expert, but you can go either way. Many use a contrasting wood for parts of the finial, so that pretty much defines the turning and construction techniques. Tight fitting is problematic for wood as it shrinks and swells with humidity changes. Without a brass ring insert or similar, they alternate between binding and somewhat loose over time. Of course, some woods are better than others in this regard.
On Nov 9, 9:40 am, Kevin <skla...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Lately, aside from trying to decide where to put the toolrest, I've > been turning bowls with tops/covers. I hesitate to call them boxes as > my understanding of readings in this group seem to lean in the > direction that boxes are turned end grain while bowls are turned cross > grain. Anyways, those bowls with tops I have turned to date have all > have a simple rounded top and have NOT been tight fitting. I believe > that the top oughta come off easy for most items - candy, nuts, paper > clips, and what nots. But now I consider the finial. I've seen many > fancy ones and most if not all have been turned separate from the top > and then attached later. > Would it be safe to assume that some here have one-piece tops, with > the top and finial combined?
Hello Kevin,
Most small boxes are made with the grain parallel to the axis of rotation on the lathe (or endgrain). One reason for this is that the wood in this orientation does not change with the weather as much as in the other orientation. That said, if you put a lid on it, it is a box.
However, if you seal the wood properly when you finish it, there is generally less change with the weather, because more moisture can't get in and any moisture remaining in the box is pretty well retained there.
> On Nov 9, 9:40 am, Kevin <skla...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Lately, aside from trying to decide where to put the toolrest, I've > > been turning bowls with tops/covers. I hesitate to call them boxes as > > my understanding of readings in this group seem to lean in the > > direction that boxes are turned end grain while bowls are turned cross > > grain. Anyways, those bowls with tops I have turned to date have all > > have a simple rounded top and have NOT been tight fitting. I believe > > that the top oughta come off easy for most items - candy, nuts, paper > > clips, and what nots. But now I consider the finial. I've seen many > > fancy ones and most if not all have been turned separate from the top > > and then attached later. > > Would it be safe to assume that some here have one-piece tops, with > > the top and finial combined?
> Hello Kevin,
> Most small boxes are made with the grain parallel to the axis of > rotation on the lathe (or endgrain). One reason for this is that the > wood in this orientation does not change with the weather as much as > in the other orientation. That said, if you put a lid on it, it is a > box.
> However, if you seal the wood properly when you finish it, there is > generally less change with the weather, because more moisture can't > get in and any moisture remaining in the box is pretty well retained > there.
I forgot to answer your question about finials. On side grain boxes like you are making, it is always necessary to put on a finial with the grain oriented in the spinal turning mode, otherwise they will tend to break easily. You can turn a round knob on the lid, that will generally stand up to use, but the fancy finials are all turned in spindle fashion and attached after the box is completed.
Like Fred said, most boxes are made in the end grain orientation, Wood movement will be pretty consistent so that when it does move, and it will, the lid an bottom will move in the same directions so that you may get an oval, but the lid will match the oval. Flat grain moves differently. If the top and bottom are made from the same piece of wood, when you get movement, they will match, but you will get both oval/horizontal and height/up and down movement, so there can be gaps. Boxes are generally small because if you make one bigger than about 2 to 3 inches, there is more wood movement, and it can cause problems with fitting the lid.
As far as finials, you could use end grain on a flat grain box as the finial is small, especially the tenon which you insert into a hole, and movement will be very minimal. The thing I worry about is that people tend to try to take the lid off using the finial. You do not want a tight fit. You can make a finial out of one piece, but, if it is flat grain, the finial will probably break before you finish turning it as cross grain in a finial is weak. I do turn some simple boxes where I make a knob for lifting the lid off, that is all from one piece of wood. In most cases, finials are made from a contrasting color of wood, which generally looks better.
robo hippy On Nov 9, 4:54 pm, Fred Holder <f...@morewoodturning.net> wrote:
> On Nov 9, 4:46 pm, Fred Holder <f...@morewoodturning.net> wrote:
> > On Nov 9, 9:40 am, Kevin <skla...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Lately, aside from trying to decide where to put the toolrest, I've > > > been turning bowls with tops/covers. I hesitate to call them boxes as > > > my understanding of readings in this group seem to lean in the > > > direction that boxes are turned end grain while bowls are turned cross > > > grain. Anyways, those bowls with tops I have turned to date have all > > > have a simple rounded top and have NOT been tight fitting. I believe > > > that the top oughta come off easy for most items - candy, nuts, paper > > > clips, and what nots. But now I consider the finial. I've seen many > > > fancy ones and most if not all have been turned separate from the top > > > and then attached later. > > > Would it be safe to assume that some here have one-piece tops, with > > > the top and finial combined?
> > Hello Kevin,
> > Most small boxes are made with the grain parallel to the axis of > > rotation on the lathe (or endgrain). One reason for this is that the > > wood in this orientation does not change with the weather as much as > > in the other orientation. That said, if you put a lid on it, it is a > > box.
> > However, if you seal the wood properly when you finish it, there is > > generally less change with the weather, because more moisture can't > > get in and any moisture remaining in the box is pretty well retained > > there.
> I forgot to answer your question about finials. On side grain boxes > like you are making, it is always necessary to put on a finial with > the grain oriented in the spinal turning mode, otherwise they will > tend to break easily. You can turn a round knob on the lid, that will > generally stand up to use, but the fancy finials are all turned in > spindle fashion and attached after the box is completed.
If you're thinking in terms of a short lid "pull" - then you're probably ok making it an integral part of the lid of an acrossed the grain piece. If, on the other hand, you have a taller, more delicate FINIAL in mind for lifting the lid off - probably not a good idea since the grain orientation will make it pretty easy for you or someone else to snap it off.
I get from other information that you provided that you're not real sure about wood movement - as the piece dries - and once dry, how it will change with changes in temperature and humidity. Not accounting for those changes can be a real problem when you add a lid to something, be it a bowl or a lidded box - especially when the piece isn't turned "end grain".
You might want to have a look at this stuff on SHRINKAGE I'm working on as an article on the importance - or not - of UNIFORM WALL THICKNESS - a Common Knowledge Rule - which seems to be not quite true.
> If you're thinking in terms of a short lid "pull" - then you're probably > ok making > it an integral part of the lid of an acrossed the grain piece. If, on > the other > hand, you have a taller, more delicate FINIAL in mind for lifting the > lid off > - probably not a good idea since the grain orientation will make it > pretty > easy for you or someone else to snap it off.
> I get from other information that you provided that you're not real sure > about wood movement - as the piece dries - and once dry, how it will > change with changes in temperature and humidity. Not accounting for > those changes can be a real problem when you add a lid to something, > be it a bowl or a lidded box - especially when the piece isn't turned > "end grain".
> You might want to have a look at this stuff on SHRINKAGE I'm working > on as an article on the importance - or not - of UNIFORM WALL THICKNESS > - a Common Knowledge Rule - which seems to be not quite true.
> Comments, questions, suggestions for improving, missing critical > issues, flat out error detection, etc. would be appreciated.
Kevin here, the OP.
First off, thanks to all that replied. To be completely honest, I did not think of cross grain versus parallel grain finials, or at least not in terms of the former breaking easier than the latter. The bowl is about 6" and perhaps 2" high. The top would have, well not a finial but more of a small knob on top with a neck (?) of no more than .25" in length. I tend to make the tops for my bowls loose fitting just so folks can get to the goodies inside. I am aware of movement, warpage, and the relationship to drying and do try to keep a uniform wall thickness but most of the wood I have has been in my basement are about 2-3" thick slabs and were cut July 2007. Thanks again for reminding me of the need to consider wood grain in finials.
Those slabs will still move a bit after you turn them. 3 inch thick slabs will come close to drying, but never really reach equilibrium. Wood is like that. You may want to rough turn them first, let them 'adjust' for a few days, then return them.
robo hippy
On Nov 11, 7:51 am, Kevin <skla...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 11, 4:15 am, charlie b <charl...@accesscom.com> wrote:
> > If you're thinking in terms of a short lid "pull" - then you're probably > > ok making > > it an integral part of the lid of an acrossed the grain piece. If, on > > the other > > hand, you have a taller, more delicate FINIAL in mind for lifting the > > lid off > > - probably not a good idea since the grain orientation will make it > > pretty > > easy for you or someone else to snap it off.
> > I get from other information that you provided that you're not real sure > > about wood movement - as the piece dries - and once dry, how it will > > change with changes in temperature and humidity. Not accounting for > > those changes can be a real problem when you add a lid to something, > > be it a bowl or a lidded box - especially when the piece isn't turned > > "end grain".
> > You might want to have a look at this stuff on SHRINKAGE I'm working > > on as an article on the importance - or not - of UNIFORM WALL THICKNESS > > - a Common Knowledge Rule - which seems to be not quite true.
> > Comments, questions, suggestions for improving, missing critical > > issues, flat out error detection, etc. would be appreciated.
> Kevin here, the OP.
> First off, thanks to all that replied. > To be completely honest, I did not think of cross grain versus > parallel grain finials, or at least not in terms of the former > breaking easier than the latter. The bowl is about 6" and perhaps 2" > high. The top would have, well not a finial but more of a small knob > on top with a neck (?) of no more than .25" in length. I tend to make > the tops for my bowls loose fitting just so folks can get to the > goodies inside. I am aware of movement, warpage, and the relationship > to drying and do try to keep a uniform wall thickness but most of the > wood I have has been in my basement are about 2-3" thick slabs and > were cut July 2007. > Thanks again for reminding me of the need to consider wood grain in > finials.
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