Raspberry Redux -Oh Jack Keller....
jmreiter
about a year ago, maybe even more, I posted a notion that almost gave
Jack Keller an apoplectic fit. Namely, that one didn't need to add freshly
boiled water to raspberries in order to retain the color when making
raspberry wine. I questioned the practice of why the use of boiled water
when we now have Camden/sulphites to kill off wild yeasties and other
critters, etc, etc. Jack wrote back, rather defensively, that the 'hot water
practice' was still needed for a few certain fruit wines in order to 'set'
the color. I wrote back that the color in the raspberry wine where I used
the hot water method had already deteriorated at about a year of age. Ben
Rotted (as I recall) chimed in that he had an aged raspberry wine that did
not use the hot water method and the color was just fine.
Well,...I set about to see with my newest batch of raspberry (at that
time) wine-in-the-making wether cold water could work as well, if not
better, than the hot water method. I used frozen raspberries for this
three-gallon batch and cold water. I added an appropriate amount of sugar
and sulphites and let all sit in a fermenter until the raspberries thawed
and the sugar dissolved. A brix was taken to measure the SG of the must and
sugar was added to gain a Pot. Alc of about 12%. Pectic enzyme was added.
Bananas were added to adjust the pH, but I also used Potassium Carbonate to
adjust the pH further after fermentation was over.
The results are now in. After several months in bulk aging, the color
remains the same bright, brilliant red. No apparent oxidation so far, and
the taste is quite raspberry-ish.
Some of the more delicate berries may require the hot water method in
order to 'set' the color of the berry, but, I have found that this is not
necessarily so for raspberry.
Your thoughts please.
Joanne
KENT MC LELLAN
the freezer I have never used boiled water & I have never noticed a problem
with color. It has always been a beautiful deep red. However, I can only
keep it around for a year to a year & a half as it is one of my more popular
flavors ;)
Dr. Mac
jmreiter
Joanne
"jmreiter" <jmre...@gte.net> wrote in message
news:vcSba.4005$IM3...@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
Ben Rotter
Without making a hot-water-extracted wine and a cold-water-extracted
wine in parallel using exactly the same techniques and all the same
paramaters, you can't really make a definitive comparison. By I do
agree that your experiment is further evidence in itself that you
don't need hot water extraction to get good colour. Thanks for doing
this and sharing it with us.
I remain skeptical of the theory of using heat to "set" colour. Heat
will extract more colour from the fruit, but the "setting" (or
stablising) of colour is not related to the temperature of extraction
at crush/pressing; it's more about pigment-tannin complexing.
Ben
jmreiter
I would have to agree that side-by-sid testing would be needed. Have you
made any strawberry wines using all fruit (frozen/fresh) or made with cold
water?
Joanne
"Ben Rotter" <benr...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:be57c79f.03031...@posting.google.com...
Winemaker
fresh berries. I also always use cold water, I also make on average 500
gallons at a time. I also wait at least 30 days before pressing. My wines
have retained good color after 2 years in the bottle.
Paul
"jmreiter" <jmre...@gte.net> wrote in message
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David C Breeden
>Ben
And for waht it's worth, we make a raspberry desert wine with 100
gals Cayuga and 1 ton of raspberries. The one from 2000 is still
holding its red color beautifully.
Dave
****************************************************************************
Dave Breeden bre...@lightlink.com
Paul E. Lehmann
"David C Breeden" <bre...@adore.lightlink.com> wrote in message
news:3e710c99$1...@news2.lightlink.com...
> Ben Rotter (benr...@yahoo.co.uk) wrote:
> >Hi Joanne,
>
> >Without making a hot-water-extracted wine and a cold-water-extracted
> >wine in parallel using exactly the same techniques and all the same
> >paramaters, you can't really make a definitive comparison. By I do
> >agree that your experiment is further evidence in itself that you
> >don't need hot water extraction to get good colour. Thanks for doing
> >this and sharing it with us.
>
> >I remain skeptical of the theory of using heat to "set" colour. Heat
> >will extract more colour from the fruit, but the "setting" (or
> >stablising) of colour is not related to the temperature of extraction
> >at crush/pressing; it's more about pigment-tannin complexing.
>
> >Ben
>
> And for waht it's worth, we make a raspberry desert wine with 100
> gals Cayuga and 1 ton of raspberries. The one from 2000 is still
> holding its red color beautifully.
>
> Dave
Sounds delicious.
I have been blending red raspberry (grown in my back yard) with kit Reisling
wine and the results have been very favorable. I took some to my wife's
family in North Carolina at Christmas thinking that they liked sweet wine
only and my wife and I could drink the raspberry Reisling. Surprise - they
liked it best of all. Not taking anymore next Christmas. I am about to try
making a sweet or semi sweet wine like you have done.
>
jmreiter
I take it you use no heat on the raspberries at all? Glad to hear a
commercial winery is making wine with fruit. I'd like to point out that I
used only fruit (raspberries w/bananas).
Joanne
"David C Breeden" <bre...@adore.lightlink.com> wrote in message
news:3e710c99$1...@news2.lightlink.com...
Ben Rotter
> made any strawberry wines using all fruit (frozen/fresh) or made with cold
> water?
Yes (to both), and colour was great (though I haven't done a
side-by-side testing either). Colour is something I almost never get
wrong for some reason, but perhaps that's because I tend to use more
fruit than the average person.
Ben
David C Breeden
>David,
> I take it you use no heat on the raspberries at all? Glad to hear a
>commercial winery is making wine with fruit. I'd like to point out that I
>used only fruit (raspberries w/bananas).
>Joanne
Hi Joanne,
Well, there's the heat of fermentation. :-) But no, no heat
applied.
And actually, this year, we're thinking of skipping the
fermentation, and just doing an infusion of the cayuga white wine
and raspberries. We'd probably have to find a wine to add alcohol,
though.
David C Breeden
>jmreiter (jmre...@gte.net) wrote:
>>David,
>> I take it you use no heat on the raspberries at all? Glad to hear a
>>commercial winery is making wine with fruit. I'd like to point out that I
>>used only fruit (raspberries w/bananas).
>>Joanne
>Hi Joanne,
>Well, there's the heat of fermentation. :-) But no, no heat
>applied.
>And actually, this year, we're thinking of skipping the
>fermentation, and just doing an infusion of the cayuga white wine
>and raspberries. We'd probably have to find a wine to add alcohol,
>though.
>Dave
Okay, no more posts for me late on Friday afternoon.
That should read: "we'd probably have to find a **way** to add
alcohol."
Sorry for the incoherency.
Ken
sorry for the ignorance, but what are you referring to when you list Cayuga?
From a web search, I can deduce Cayuga is a region in NY and an American
Indian nation but I'm not sure what it's got to do with Raspberry wine?
Regards...Ken
"David C Breeden" <bre...@adore.lightlink.com> wrote in message
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David C Breeden
>Dave,
>sorry for the ignorance, but what are you referring to when you list Cayuga?
>From a web search, I can deduce Cayuga is a region in NY and an American
>Indian nation but I'm not sure what it's got to do with Raspberry wine?
>Regards...Ken
Hi Ken,
Cayuga White is a wine grape developed by Cornell. It's a
French-American hybrid.
I wouldn't use it as a varietal, but it works fine as a base wine
for various blends.
Trevor A Panther
Some subjects cause much comment
Just to put my two pen'orth ( pennyworth) on the subject of cold water with
fruit or boiling water with fruit. Both methods will make a wine --- each
wine made using the same type of fruit will be very different with cold
water/stewed fruit. I personally prefer the more "natural" taste of unstewed
fruit wine ( just using metabisulphide to inhibit wild yeasts). I stopped
"stewing" my fruit some 30 years ago!
As for the subject of colour retention and settting of colour with hot
water --- the only wine that I have had difficulty with with colour fading
is Beetroot --- and my recipe for that is by boiling the "fruit" and
beetroot is well known for its fading properties even in well darkened
storage.
Blackberries, elderberries and strawberries have always produced the colour
that I would expect. ( from darkest red/black to rosé with strawberries In
fact my strawberry made in 2002 is quite deeply coloured -- nearer a "red"
than the rosé I normally use for my sparkling wines --- but I did up the
colour last time with a splattering of elderberries! (I have just started
the sparkling phase in 30 "champagne" bottles! (-- drink the first bottle
in about a years time just to see if it is coming "on line" ). All my
fruit wine I make using deep frozen fruit.
Next post sometime when spring is well matured!
We are still looking forward to the March winds. ( March ----- "In like a
lion , out like a lanb " ---- it seems to have got it wrong this year!! )
--
Trevor A Panther
In South Yorkshire, England
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Ray
especially with berry wines, that the key factor in color retention is
keeping light away from the finished product.
Ray
"Ben Rotter" <benr...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
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