> after reading one or two posts in The Garden, there seemed to be a > repetetive debate on the expected age of a needleworker. I assume that > most posting here are in the 40+ age range, but, purely out of interest, > I would like to do a survey - and this includes all lurkers who don´t > normally post!
>> But your roads are straighter and much less crowded than ours and your >> petrol/gas is so much cheaper. Makes all the difference in every respect. >> Don`t forget Kipling`s line: "The rolling English drunkard made the rolling >> English road!" Our straight roads are (mostly) Roman!
Actually it's G.K. Chesterton:
Before the Roman came to Rye or out to Severn strode, The rolling English drunkard made the rolling English road. A reeling road, a rolling road, that rambles round the shire, And after him the parson ran, the sexton and the squire; A merry road, a mazy road, and such as we did tread The night we went to Birmingham by way of Beachy Head.
> after reading one or two posts in The Garden, there seemed to be a > repetetive debate on the expected age of a needleworker. I assume that > most posting here are in the 40+ age range, but, purely out of interest, > I would like to do a survey - and this includes all lurkers who don´t > normally post!
>>And I guess I've been deposed to fourth place because I will hit 75 on
> Friday.
>>Eleanor the Elder
Hey! You share my DD's birthday! :) My baby'll be 17 tomorrow. -- Joan (It certainly *couldn't* have been 17 years already! DS #1 turned 20 in June! <mumbling... I'm *not* that old!!! I'm *not* that old!!! I'm *not* that old!!!.....> )
My MIL came in with us about 6 years ago, so frail, and ready to die. In fact we had the house put in our land, so she could have a home for the short time left to her! She is STILL here, and so are we!! Life is a bitch, as they say ( we are in upper 60s, and weant to play!!). The current tale of woe from her is she wants to buy a trailer , and move in near the cleaner lady!! She is 86, can't drive, can't cook etc etc.
> On 04 Aug 2003 03:23:30 GMT, duk...@aol.comnospam (Dukkum) wrote:
> >Well, I chronologically just turned 58, but I feel at least a hundred years > >older than that.
> Oh, yeah. When I get up from the couch, it's a definite hobble for > the first 6 feet or so.....
> >We just moved, are dealing with several family crises, and have a grown > >daughter and three grandchildren now living with us -- and that's just for > >starters.
> My father-in-law came to visit for a few weeks about 5 years > ago......and is still here...<sigh>
> >They say children will keep you young -- they'll also make you old before your > >time <G>.
> If you could find the gray hairs under the color, any one you pull, > you could put under a microscope and see one of my kid's names > engraved on it.
> -- > Deb > Works in Progress: > L&L "The Spirit of Christmas" > 2002 Christmas Angel > Meg's Lacy Sampler Pouch > Marbek Nativity > Needlework Necessary
>From: "Gillian Murray" gillmur...@mindspring.com >My MIL came in with us about 6 years ago, so frail, and ready to die. ........
She is STILL here, and so are we!! ........... She is 86, can't drive, can't cook etc etc.
Gillian, a question -- other than the $$ involved, why don't you just put her in a nice retirement home? I KNOW there are a ton of them down there! I have already told DD that if I get to be that age and not able to care for MOI, she has my permission to dump my sorry GOW butt in a home -- even if it's a state run one. After having to deal with visiting my mother and then my father and then my VDMIL in nursing homes, I also told her she doesn't have to bother visiting me unless she feels like it. I did what I could to make my mother's passing as dignified as possible, have done the same for my dad all **three** times he has been in the nursing home and supposed to die and hope to do the same for my DMIL. At this point, I don't think there IS any dignity in dying. CiaoMeow
>^;;^<
. PAX, Tia Mary >^;;^< Angels can't show their wings on earth but nothing was ever said about their WHISKERS!! Nothing is complete without a few cat hairs!
> her in a nice retirement home? I KNOW there are a ton of them down there! I > have already told DD that if I get to be that age and not able to care for MOI, > she has my permission to dump my sorry GOW butt in a home -- even if it's a > state run one. > After having to deal with visiting my mother and then my father and then my > VDMIL in nursing homes, I also told her she doesn't have to bother visiting me > unless she feels like it. I did what I could to make my mother's passing as > dignified as possible, have done the same for my dad all **three** times he has > been in the nursing home and supposed to die and hope to do the same for my > DMIL. At this point, I don't think there IS any dignity in dying. CiaoMeow > >^;;^< > . > PAX, Tia Mary >^;;^< > Angels can't show their wings on earth but nothing was ever said about their
Well, the main reason is that we just can't throw her out, saying "we are sick and tired of being stuck here with you". There is a long story that predates her move in with us. She has always been dependent on someone, even though she would deny it. She lived in a house belonging to her younger son. A few months after he was shot to death ( I hate Miami) her DIL sent over a family member to tell the old girl she had a month to move out. Dottie was 78 then, and we knew nothing about it until we made a visit, and found her house piled with boxes. She didn't know where she would go. I had recently sold a rental property I had owned, so we went out, I bought a nice condo for her in a retirement community that had absolutely everything, including Tony Bennett putting on a concert. There were shuttle busses, and she could still drive then, EVERYTHING was there. She stayed there two years. Not once did she visit a neighbor, or have a neighbor in for coffee, or go to the million-dollar activity center, or the movies etc. Just sat in her condo, wishing she was young!!
When we found her after her eightieth birthday sick, gaunt, no food in the house, even she had to admit that she couldn't live alone. ( She now denies this, of course). The three options were 1. Retirement home..........no, she equated this with a Nursing Home, and "will kill myself first, I have the pills all saved up!" ( I didn't know then that she can't swallow pills). 2. Someone live with her, but it was a one-bedroom condo, no room. 3. Bite the bullet and stop living full-time in the RV, and that is where we are today. We didn't think she would last long, but she has. Hardy New England stock, I suspect.
So, that is the situation. She has a bad back, which wouldn't be so bad if she didn't brood over it, has arthritis and hypertension. Really remarkably well for an old lady. She has virtually no savings, and only a measly $400 coming in from Social Security. I am not willing to spend MY savings on her again, that is for later when I might need it, if Jim goes first!!
Sad, isn't it? Neither of us have any fond feelings for her; she left DH, aged six ,with his father, got divorced, and took off with the little brother. She was gone from his life through all his childhood! She and I have absolutely nothing in common. You can only have so much conversation on the cat, the dogs and the cooking program on TV, which I don't watch!!
Sorry, this is my rant, or maybe it is a whine?; it is either a rant, or see the Psychologist, according to my Dr. DH is being treeated for depression, I wonder why??
>From: "Gillian Murray" gillmur...@mindspring.com >........ When we found her after her eightieth birthday sick, gaunt, no food in the >house, even she had to admit that she couldn't live alone. ( She now denies >this, of course). The three options were 1. Retirement home..........no, she >equated this with a Nursing Home, and "will kill myself first, I have the >pills all saved up!" .................. Sorry, this is my rant, or maybe it is
a whine?; it is either a rant, or see
>the Psychologist, according to my Dr. DH is being treeated for depression, I >wonder why??
No need to apologize m'dear, you DO deserve a rant now and again. I must be a *totlly* cold-hearted bitch because I would have told the old bat that she was *welcome* to try and off herself if that's all the more she cared about herself. There is absolutely *nothing* wrong with a monitored retirement home where they make sure the resident has meals & meds, etc. Sounds to me like she is a very selfish old woman who gave nothing to her son, your Dh, buts wants something from him. I KNOW it seems cold hearted to tell her she has to go live in a facility somewhere but you both have to consider YOUR health. Society is no longer the way it was when you MIL was young and the family pretty much *always* took care of the old folks. Back then, the family unit was much larger than it is today and there were lots of prople about to care for the very young and the very old. My father also says he won't go to a home unless he is quite ill. I told him that's fine as long as he has the $$ to pay for himself. several years ago, I came right out and told him I was not emotionally prepared to care for him if he got to that point. It was very emotional but I KNOW that if I had to care for him on a daily basis I really & truly might come unhinged and do something horrid. Times are so different now. My VDMIL is on anti-depressants because she is so upset about having to be in the nursing home. If you could find a facility that was affordable (THAT'S a long shot) you would be well justified in sending her to live there! You could fulfill what I presume you feel as a familial duty, by visiting her on a weekly basis. She'd be properly cared for in the type of living conditions she deserves -- I don't think she deserves to be living with you & DH -- and you and your DH would have a much better life. Sounds selfish, I know and, compared to 70 years ago, it IS selfish. I have learned that you have to care for your own mental and physical health before you can worry about someone else (little babies are a different matter). It's not right to hurt others by caring for your own needs but I don't think having your MIL live in a care facility would be hurtful! VBS -- what a quandry. It must be horrible for you. I certainly couldn't do it -- I don't have that kind of charity in me! I'm lucky I don't kill the kitties when they start to get demanding of me! To have another person totally dependent on me would drive me over the edge! That's why I always tell DH that I hope I am the first to cross the Rainbow Bridge. The thought of not being able to care for him if he needed it makes my blood run cold! Keep your spirits up Dear Gillian. There are gonna be about a bazillion gold stars next to your name in the Good Book up in heaven! CiaoMeow >^;;^< . PAX, Tia Mary >^;;^< Angels can't show their wings on earth but nothing was ever said about their WHISKERS!! Nothing is complete without a few cat hairs!
>Well, the main reason is that we just can't > throw her out, saying "we are sick and tired of > being stuck here with you". There is a long > story that predates her move in with us. She > has always been dependent on someone, > even though she would deny it.
Hugs from me, Gillian. I cared for DH right up to the end, with some help from Hospice the last few days. It is hard, and hard choices to make. Many times I thought of a nursing home, but he had been such an independent old coot I just couldn't do that to him. Couldn't imagine putting him in a situation where he had absolutely no control over his own life.
I think if I had your situation, my decision would be different. I tend to think along the lines of "you decided how you wanted to be treated when you did thus and such." Not meaning to be vindictive or vengeful, just taking into account their actions in the past when I make my decision now.
Caring people deserve the best we can offer, the others don't.
chris c "Don't look back. Something might be gaining on you." ~~ Satchel Paige
My dear Sheena - you've helped me to look at things in a different perspective concerning this matter - and I've found it so helpful to have a friend who understands - I've bored you with some of my probably very boring stories of what I have to live with - and you've made me feel human again. I thank you for that - you are such a kind person (and I don't mean to ruin your reputation here) <G> Thanks for the shoulder Kid - it ain't easy.
> On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 13:53:40 GMT, "Gillian Murray" > <gillmur...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >Well, the main reason is that we just can't throw her out, saying "we are > >sick and tired of being stuck here with you". There is a long story that > >predates her move in with us. She has always been dependent on someone, even > >though she would deny it. She lived in a house belonging to her younger son. > >A few months after he was shot to death ( I hate Miami) her DIL sent over a > >family member to tell the old girl she had a month to move out. Dottie was > >78 then, and we knew nothing about it until we made a visit, and found her > >house piled with boxes. She didn't know where she would go. I had recently > >sold a rental property I had owned, so we went out, I bought a nice condo > >for her in a retirement community that had absolutely everything, including > >Tony Bennett putting on a concert. There were shuttle busses, and she could > >still drive then, EVERYTHING was there. She stayed there two years. Not once > >did she visit a neighbor, or have a neighbor in for coffee, or go to the > >million-dollar activity center, or the movies etc. Just sat in her condo, > >wishing she was young!!
> >When we found her after her eightieth birthday sick, gaunt, no food in the > >house, even she had to admit that she couldn't live alone. ( She now denies > >this, of course). The three options were 1. Retirement home..........no, she > >equated this with a Nursing Home, and "will kill myself first, I have the > >pills all saved up!" ( I didn't know then that she can't swallow pills). 2. > >Someone live with her, but it was a one-bedroom condo, no room. 3. Bite the > >bullet and stop living full-time in the RV, and that is where we are today. > >We didn't think she would last long, but she has. Hardy New England stock, I > >suspect.
> >So, that is the situation. She has a bad back, which wouldn't be so bad if > >she didn't brood over it, has arthritis and hypertension. Really remarkably > >well for an old lady. She has virtually no savings, and only a measly $400 > >coming in from Social Security. I am not willing to spend MY savings on her > >again, that is for later when I might need it, if Jim goes first!!
> >Sad, isn't it? Neither of us have any fond feelings for her; she left DH, > >aged six ,with his father, got divorced, and took off with the little > >brother. She was gone from his life through all his childhood! She and I > >have absolutely nothing in common. You can only have so much conversation on > >the cat, the dogs and the cooking program on TV, which I don't watch!!
> >Sorry, this is my rant, or maybe it is a whine?; it is either a rant, or see > >the Psychologist, according to my Dr. DH is being treeated for depression, I > >wonder why??
> >Gillian
> My sympathies, I had my mother at the end of her life but not for > nearly so long. I watched my youngest aunt take care of the eldest > aunt (big difference in their ages) and I know Sharon in NB has the > same tribulations with her mother. The story is always the same > with the other relatives evading taking any responsibility etc.
> Only thing to offer is that when it is done you will be able to live > with yourself. Now the others probably do not suffer a guilt trip, > but you would. Also, I think this is very true, the caregiver is > always held up to be less than caring while the careless other > relatives are all that is wonderful, mainly because the person knows > they can safely blame the carer! So in it's roundabout way, it's a > compliment.
> Anyway, remember you are not alone, many here have done it, are doing > it and know exactly where you are. Here's an extra hug or two to > carry you through today ((((((garrulous Gill)))))))
>From: LucretiaBor...@florence.it >....... You, Gill and I are/were unable to put these mothers in homes, if we >did we would not enjoy ourselves anyway. To me it is horrifying to >read what Tia says (and heaven knows it takes a bit to horrify me lol) >but I guess if you can do it, go right ahead. Those of us who cannot >or will not, must then try to be very supportive of each other. ...........
I think part of the difference in attitude is a generational thing. But that's just a part. For MOI, I had absolutely NO problem putting my Mother in a nursing home because she was dying of cancer. We had *never* gotten along and there was no way I was going to ruin my mental and physical health (and that IS what would have happened) by taking care of her. Sheena, I know you aren't pointing a finger or being judgmental and I DO understand your position.
I did my best for Mom by going to the nursing home every day -- Monday through Friday -- and staying from 8:00 AM until 2:00 PM. I did this for about 4 months and then had to go back to work -- couldn't do without the $$ any longer. My Mom passed away about 2 weeks after I went back to work but I knew I had done as much as *I* could do for her. For me, it was a situation of helping my Mom but not being responsible for her care. I didn't mind being there every day and keeping her company and helping her with whatever she needed. The Nursing Home was responsible for her care and I was just there to "do" for her. She was mean and spiteful and nasty to me almost every day but I was there anyway. I knew she was having to deal with the fact that she was dying and that would make anyone upset, to say the least. I felt no guilt about not taking my mother into my home to care for until she died. I knew if I had done that, I would have grown to hate her long before she crossed the Rainbow Bridge. As I said, we had never gotten along and I never enjoyed being around her for any length of time. In Gillian's case, I don't think her MIL deserves to have Gillian and DH care for her. I do understand why she provides the care for her MIL -- I was raised to believe that kids are supposed to take care of their parents when they are old and dying. Now, when you read the rest of this, read it all before you get too pissed off at me OK? I have grown to believe that being old doesn't mean you should be treated any better than those who are younger. Just because a person is "older" doesn't mean that person is better or "deserves" any special treatment -- it only means you have lived longer than others. The type of person you have been throughout life is what earns you the benefit of being treated "better" as you age. Agreed, the elderly often have special needs and I have no problem with that -- things like making accommodations for seating, etc. My dad is one of those who feel that the simple fact of his having lived 92 years has earned him preferential treatment. For example, he thinks that when he walks into a restaurant, he should be seated ASAP and not made to wait his turn simply because he has lived 92 years! I don't think anyone should just be dumped in a home -- retirement or nursing -- and then forgotten. That's especially cruel for many of the elderly because they were raised to believe and expect that they would be cared for by their families. Unfortunately, it sounds like Gillian's MIL hadn't bothered to be part of the family until she wanted something from them! Sounds selfish to MOI and NOT deserving of the time, effort, money and everything else that Gillian is giving her.
PAX, Tia Mary >^;;^< Angels can't show their wings on earth but nothing was ever said about their WHISKERS!! Nothing is complete without a few cat hairs!
Gillian, Not everyone is able to single handedly provide care. My mother had Alzheimers but hid it very well. I'm an only child and my uncle lived in Delaware so really didn't get to see us too often. She was always trying to go home although she had lived in this house for 40 years. The laws changed in NJ so that it is very difficult to get help for someone without a power of attorney. They have to be a danger to themselves or others. The policeman was on the phone to the hospital saying, "She's walking in the street in the pouring rain what do you mean she's not in danger!!" Without the power of attorney I couldn't do anything until the cops were able to call in social services which was an absolute nightmare. Eventually she was committed for observation and I was able to get her into a group home facility. The only thing I feel guilty about not doing it sooner because they were able to take much better care of her than I could. Don't feel bad, guilty or irresponsible. The assisted living places are able to keep a constant eye out for problems and will encourage participation in activities. If you think that may be an option, visit a facility without calling first. Although you shouldn't be allowed to wander around you will see if there is a management person there who will show you the facilities right then and there or if you will be asked to come back at a better time. Unless there is an emergency it should be no problem. An elder care lawyer would be able to give you all options for your state including residences and Medicaid. Social services is another option. There are also senior centers that can help with care a day or several days a week. Do what is best for ALL concerned and don't worry about what anyone might say. A friend of mine could tell tales about that but she's too nice! I do tend to go on but hope for the best solution for you.
I just want to thank all of you who responded to this "whine". There are times when it gets a bit too much, and some friendly shoulders makes the burden easier to bear!! Sheena, bless her heart, read this through the words I wrote. I know Chris just lost her husband, and that must have been so very hard. I also lost a husband ( as did Sheena) but he was mid-forties. I survived, turned the page in the book of life, and kept on living! ( My philosophy).Mary was right, but this is a decision we should have made years ago. It is too late now to change. My heart goes out to all of us/you who are whiling away our best senior years waiting for a burden to be lifted from us. (((((((hug))))))
I have decided that for the so-called weaker sex, we are strong old broads!! My daughter called tonight, with the news that her MIL, my age, 67, is in hospital. They are checking out many things. Marcella said Doris had fainted, and today she was found to have rectal and urinary bleeding. None of ths is confirmed, but I cannot forget what Marc said to me. "Mom, you are strong, you take care of yourself and are physically and mentally much younger than Doris " This was a compliment, as her MIL smokes and drinks to excess; she is 5'8" and weigh 100lbs. I am 5'3" and weigh 168!!!! Still like my evening Manhattan though!! But I won't give in.
> On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 13:53:40 GMT, "Gillian Murray" > <gillmur...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >Well, the main reason is that we just can't throw her out, saying "we are > >sick and tired of being stuck here with you". There is a long story that > >predates her move in with us. She has always been dependent on someone, even > >though she would deny it. She lived in a house belonging to her younger son. > >A few months after he was shot to death ( I hate Miami) her DIL sent over a > >family member to tell the old girl she had a month to move out. Dottie was > >78 then, and we knew nothing about it until we made a visit, and found her > >house piled with boxes. She didn't know where she would go. I had recently > >sold a rental property I had owned, so we went out, I bought a nice condo > >for her in a retirement community that had absolutely everything, including > >Tony Bennett putting on a concert. There were shuttle busses, and she could > >still drive then, EVERYTHING was there. She stayed there two years. Not once > >did she visit a neighbor, or have a neighbor in for coffee, or go to the > >million-dollar activity center, or the movies etc. Just sat in her condo, > >wishing she was young!!
> >When we found her after her eightieth birthday sick, gaunt, no food in the > >house, even she had to admit that she couldn't live alone. ( She now denies > >this, of course). The three options were 1. Retirement home..........no, she > >equated this with a Nursing Home, and "will kill myself first, I have the > >pills all saved up!" ( I didn't know then that she can't swallow pills). 2. > >Someone live with her, but it was a one-bedroom condo, no room. 3. Bite the > >bullet and stop living full-time in the RV, and that is where we are today. > >We didn't think she would last long, but she has. Hardy New England stock, I > >suspect.
> >So, that is the situation. She has a bad back, which wouldn't be so bad if > >she didn't brood over it, has arthritis and hypertension. Really remarkably > >well for an old lady. She has virtually no savings, and only a measly $400 > >coming in from Social Security. I am not willing to spend MY savings on her > >again, that is for later when I might need it, if Jim goes first!!
> >Sad, isn't it? Neither of us have any fond feelings for her; she left DH, > >aged six ,with his father, got divorced, and took off with the little > >brother. She was gone from his life through all his childhood! She and I > >have absolutely nothing in common. You can only have so much conversation on > >the cat, the dogs and the cooking program on TV, which I don't watch!!
> >Sorry, this is my rant, or maybe it is a whine?; it is either a rant, or see > >the Psychologist, according to my Dr. DH is being treeated for depression, I > >wonder why??
> >Gillian
> My sympathies, I had my mother at the end of her life but not for > nearly so long. I watched my youngest aunt take care of the eldest > aunt (big difference in their ages) and I know Sharon in NB has the > same tribulations with her mother. The story is always the same > with the other relatives evading taking any responsibility etc.
> Only thing to offer is that when it is done you will be able to live > with yourself. Now the others probably do not suffer a guilt trip, > but you would. Also, I think this is very true, the caregiver is > always held up to be less than caring while the careless other > relatives are all that is wonderful, mainly because the person knows > they can safely blame the carer! So in it's roundabout way, it's a > compliment.
> Anyway, remember you are not alone, many here have done it, are doing > it and know exactly where you are. Here's an extra hug or two to > carry you through today ((((((garrulous Gill)))))))
> Sharon, like Gill, you are performing such a difficult task and should > never minimize what it costs a lot of the time. It is thankless and > all of us who have done it, know just how hard it is.
> You, Gill and I are/were unable to put these mothers in homes, if we > did we would not enjoy ourselves anyway.
snip Those of us who cannot
> or will not, must then try to be very supportive of each other. > Sheena
For those who care, it is no picnic either way. when my dad was diagnosed with Alzheimer's back in 1973, we kept him home as long as possible, which turned out to be a little over a year. He was also hypoglycemic & when my 9 year old sister got home from school to find him passed out on the floor, we decided that he would not want to put her through that if he was "himself". It was not easy for any of us but we were and are still convinced that we did the best we could at the time. We visited him every weekend for the next 6 years until he passed away in a nursing home from Pneumonia in Feb. 1981. As bad a reputation as some nursing homes have, I'm happy to say that he was always clean and dry when we visited. He may not have been wearing his own clothes (once it looked like he had "Bozo" shoes on) :-)) but they were clean and dry, which was important to his comfort and health. He had professional caring people around him that could take much better care of him than we could have at the time. When we did visit, we were able to smile and laugh (at least on the outside) and it was MUCH LESS STRESSFUL than those last couple of months when we were trying to keep him at home.
When my mom had cancer, we were lucky enough to be able to share the care among my three sisters and I (our DHs were WONDERFUL) as well as a caring neighbor so that Mom was able to die at home surrounded by a loving family.
If someone is going to be cranky and unhappy anyway, they might as well be cranky and unhappy in a "home" away from home. :-( Just because families used to be multigenerational doesn't mean that it went well and people got along. :-) I know for a fact that my grandparents paid my grandmother's brother or sister to keep Grandma's father at their house because my grandmother refused to have him live with her family. Apparently he was a real S.O.B. and she didn't want her own children to grow up with the same verbal abuse that she & her siblings had suffered through. :-)) Liz from Humbug
