OT: Why Men Are Happier Than Women!
Fred
2. Wedding plans take care of themselves.
3. Chocolate is just another snack.
4. Car mechanics tell us the truth.
5. We never have to drive to another gas station because this one's just
too icky.
6. Same work, more pay.
7. Wrinkles add character.
8. Wedding dress - $8000; tux rental - $100.
9. We keep our last name.
10. The occasional well-rendered belch is practically expected.
11. New shoes don't cut, blister, or mangle our feet.
12. One mood, ALL the time.
13. Phone conversations are over in 30 seconds flat.
14. A five-day vacation requires only one suitcase.
15. We can open all our own jars.
16. We get extra credit for the slightest act of thoughtfulness.
17. If someone forgets to invite us, he or she can still be our friend.
18. Our underwear is $8.95 for a three-pack.
19. Three pairs of shoes are more than enough.
20. We don't have to stop and think of which way to turn a nut on a bolt.
21. We almost never have strap problems in public
22. We are unable to see wrinkles in our clothes.
23. The same hair style lasts for years, maybe decades.
24. We don't have to shave below our neck.
25. One wallet, one belt and one pair of shoes, one color, all seasons.
26. We can "do" our nails with a pocket-knife.
27. We have freedom of choice concerning growing a mustache.
28. We might make the odd error in judgement but we never make mistakes.
29. We learned not separate the colors from the whites because the washing
machine just mixes them up anyway.
30. We can do Christmas shopping for 25 relatives, on December 24, in 45
minutes.
Dr. Brat
> 6. Same work, more pay.
Exactly why do you think that this is funny?
> 8. Wedding dress - $8000; tux rental - $100.
Wedding dress - $300; new double breasted dark teal suit - $450.
> 9. We keep our last name.
Did that.
> 12. One mood, ALL the time.
Liar.
> 14. A five-day vacation requires only one suitcase.
Same here, and a carry-on at that.
> 20. We don't have to stop and think of which way to turn a nut on a bolt.
Right, that's why you're muttering "righty, tighty" under your breath.
> 21. We almost never have strap problems in public
Unless you play baseball.
> 23. The same hair style lasts for years, maybe decades.
You just comb it farther over.
> 30. We can do Christmas shopping for 25 relatives, on December 24, in 45
> minutes.
Glad I'm not married to you. My DH gets his shopping done early and
locks it in his suitcase so he can torture me about it.
Elizabeth
--
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~living well is the best revenge~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
The most important thing one woman can do for another is to illuminate
and expand her sense of actual possibilities. --Adrienne Rich
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Cheryl Isaak
<epc...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Fred wrote:
>
>> 6. Same work, more pay.
>
> Exactly why do you think that this is funny?
I think ironic is closer and it is far less true. I remember several guys
being truly P.O'd that I made more than they.
>
>> 8. Wedding dress - $8000; tux rental - $100.
>
> Wedding dress - $300; new double breasted dark teal suit - $450.
Snazzy!
>
>> 9. We keep our last name.
>
> Did that.
>
>> 12. One mood, ALL the time.
>
> Liar.
>> 14. A five-day vacation requires only one suitcase.
>
> Same here, and a carry-on at that.
>
>> 20. We don't have to stop and think of which way to turn a nut on a bolt.
>
> Right, that's why you're muttering "righty, tighty" under your breath.
Hey - I resemble that remark!
>
>> 21. We almost never have strap problems in public
>
> Unless you play baseball.
>
Try hockey!
>> 23. The same hair style lasts for years, maybe decades.
>
> You just comb it farther over.
>
>> 30. We can do Christmas shopping for 25 relatives, on December 24, in 45
>> minutes.
>
> Glad I'm not married to you. My DH gets his shopping done early and
> locks it in his suitcase so he can torture me about it.
>
And mine is out shopping with DS as we speak!
Cheryl
A Dizzy Blonde
about the car mechanics telling them the truth. For reasons just too long
to explain the internal combustion engine holds little mystery for me, and
the staff of a couple of the largest auto service centres have learnt that
the hard way, and same service centres have been overheard talking absolute
garbage to men............
have a wonderful festive season no matter where or what you are doing.
joanne
Darla
<chery...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>On 12/24/03 9:35 AM, in article 3FE9A422...@mindspring.com, "Dr. Brat"
><epc...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>> Fred wrote:
>>
>>> 6. Same work, more pay.
>>
>> Exactly why do you think that this is funny?
>I think ironic is closer and it is far less true. I remember several guys
>being truly P.O'd that I made more than they.
I guess I work for a pretty good company, because I get paid just the
same as the guys. In fact, I make more than many of them, because
I've been there longer! And make the full scale (drivers hired from
truck-driving schools, with little or no experience, are paid at a
lower rate, and for a longer period).
Darla
Sacred cows make great hamburgers.
Cheryl Isaak
"Darla" <dar...@mindspring.clothescom> wrote:
In engineering, especial government contractors, women get paid the same as
the men or there is a good chance of losing the contract.
Cheryl
Karen C - California
<dar...@mindspring.clothescom> writes:
> In fact, I make more than many of them, because
>I've been there longer!
More than one junior attorney has been distressed to learn that his secretary
earns more than he does. :)
And those of us who've been around long enough to be in that position use it to
keep the little twerps in line. VBEG "Obviously, sonny, you're not worth as
much to the firm as I am, so shut up and do what I tell you to do."
Christmas shopping season is now officially over. But for those of you who
aren't done yet, Ross Dress for Less opens early on Friday, with 60% off.
--
Finished 12/14/03 -- Mermaid (Dimensions)
WIP: Angel of Autumn, Calif Sampler, Holiday Snowglobe, Guide the Hands (2d
one)
Paralegal - Writer - Editor - Researcher
http://hometown.aol.com/kmc528/KMC.html
Gillian Murray
For heavens sake, develop a sense of humor, and learn to laugh. There is
nothing particularly disparaging in these jokes, as long as you take it in
fun.
If you have no sense of humour, then I am very sorry for you, because you
miss so much in this life. I have noticed several folk here who take
everything so literally and seriously!! Lighten up, and be happy, for
crying out loud.
I hope all have a wonderful holiday. I will, despite the fact I am 67, and
have the MIL with us. Happily I have invited the neighbors over, so dinner
will take more than the normal 15 minutes ( it had better!!!)
Gillian
"Karen C - California" <kmc...@aol.com.LuvXS> wrote in message
news:20031224210147...@mb-m21.aol.com...
Ellice
LOL - only at the beginning. There are ways - it's called the "old boys" -
the more entry levels are indeed all the same. The women seem to get the
promotions a little slower. I can still remember some grumpy, smelly old
physicist telling me that I was in the way of the young guys, because I had
a husband so didn't need to earn more money - but the young men had plans -
would be getting married, etc. You can only imagine my answer to him. Of
course, this was a guy who would "jog" during the day - come back to the
office without showering - then we saw him one day - realized he was jogging
in his dress socks - yuck. A man who's office you never stepped into come
Wednesday (he also didn't believe in changing his clothes much during the
week). Sad to say - it became much harder for me to get timely promotions -
quite the issue - since I had more education, qualifications, and in some
ways was more competent. But, I learned about that from mentoring and
working with many more junior females coming into the work environment.
Some of these things on the Fred jokes - I think the humor is just not
working for the younger ones (under 50?) amongst us. Maybe it's a
generational thing about not appreciating the sarcasm, or something.
Happy Festivus, Chanukah, Christmas, Kwanzaa, Devali (when it comes) -
whatever,
ellice
Dr. Brat
> LOL - only at the beginning. There are ways - it's called the "old boys" -
> the more entry levels are indeed all the same. The women seem to get the
> promotions a little slower. I can still remember some grumpy, smelly old
> physicist telling me that I was in the way of the young guys, because I had
> a husband so didn't need to earn more money - but the young men had plans -
> would be getting married, etc. You can only imagine my answer to him. Of
I sat on a search committee where one of my older male colleagues argued
that we shouldn't hire the (to my mind) more qualified of two candidates
because she was engaged and when her husband finished his Ph.D., she
would leave us to follow him to whereever he got a job. It's
unbelieveable that this stuff is still happening, but it is.
> Some of these things on the Fred jokes - I think the humor is just not
> working for the younger ones (under 50?) amongst us. Maybe it's a
> generational thing about not appreciating the sarcasm, or something.
I didn't really see any sarcasm in it. I am not lied to by mechanics
because I pick very carefully, but I have been talked down to in
hardware stores and left out of bonding activities that eventually
impacted people's careers because I was female. I just don't think it's
funny and I don't think a forum that is primarily female is the place
for such stuff. And no, I won't lighten up about it. It's too important.
> Happy Festivus, Chanukah, Christmas, Kwanzaa, Devali (when it comes) -
> whatever,
And the same to you.
Texasxsgal1
Men. I have gotten it a couple of times, but if i saved it, i surely can't
remember where i put it.
kathy
san antonio
Karen C - California
> I had
>a husband so didn't need to earn more money
I got that, too. Male co-worker, hired after me, wife had a job with a really
good salary, and I was told that he was getting a raise, I wasn't, because they
just had a baby. 'Scuse me? Between us, DH and I weren't earning together
what this guy's wife earned alone, and he was the one who "needed" the raise?
They had health insurance through the wife's job, we didn't have any. A lot of
other benefits they had through the wife's job, we didn't have at all. I guess
I had a different picture of who was more in need of (and more deserving of) a
raise.
Got it again some years later, that it would be no hardship on the family if I
got laid off, because I had a husband. Yuh-huh. A DH who earned just over
minimum wage, and whose take-home wouldn't even cover our rent. Some people
just can't grasp the concept that wives are frequently the primary breadwinner.
Patricia Rogers
it, the less amusd I was. I think the problem here is that so many of us
have to live and/or work in situations where some of these things aren't
sarcarsm or jokes, but actualities. And you know what? After a while you
get tired of being a "Good Sport". Women have to take a lot, one way or
another, and when they resist it or decline to find it amusing, everyone is
surprised that they don't have a sense of humor. Well, sometimes it just
ain't funny anymore! Furthermore, some pretty ugly remarks can be made,
followed by the old tag, "Just joking!!" But they weren't - they meant it,
every word, and didn't have the guts to admit it. And if the woman to whom
such remarks are addressed enters her objection, she is told "What's the
matter? Can't you take a joke?" Except that it wasn't a joke.
So maybe that's why some of us aren't laughing - because we feel that if we
keep laughing when it isn't really funny, people will never see these
remarks as out-of-line or demeaning. And it works both ways - we shouldn't
demean others either. Gets real complicated, doesn't it!
This is the season of good will. I for one am resolving to watch what I
say, and not fall into stereotypical remarks or responses. Thanks to all of
you in this thread - you gave me a lot to think about. A joyous holiday to
you all.
Pat in Illinois
"Gillian Murray" <gillm...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:mQrGb.8359$IM3...@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
JL Amerson
http://www.scottishwomensfootball.co.uk:
IT'S GOOD TO BE THE WOMAN
* We got off the Titanic first.
* We can scare male bosses with mysterious gynecological disorder excuses.
* Taxis stop for us.
* We don't look like a frog in a blender when dancing.
* No fashion faux pas we make could ever rival The Speedo.
* We don't have to pass gas to amuse ourselves.
* If we forget to shave, no one has to know.
* We can congratulate our teammate without ever touching her rear.
* We never have to reach down every so often to make sure our privates are
still there.
* We have the ability to dress ourselves.
* We can talk to people of the opposite sex without having to picture them
naked.
* If we marry someone 20 years younger, we're aware that we look like an
idiot.
* There are times when chocolate really can solve all your problems.
* We'll never regret piercing our ears.
* We can fully assess a person just by looking at their shoes.
* We can make comments about how silly men are in their presence, because
they aren't listening anyway.
"Texasxsgal1" <texas...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031224225818...@mb-m17.aol.com...
Meredith
average, women still get paid 80% of what men do for the same job.
Depressing.
Meredith
Dr. Brat
weren't harmless.
Elizabeth
--
Dr. Brat
> But these were actually kind of harmless. The ones in the other one
> weren't harmless.
Actually, I'd like to ammend that statement. The first one wasn't so
harmless. A lot of good and important men were lost on the Titanic.
And the second one is sort of backlashish. Gynecological disorders
wouldn't be so mysterious if women's health issues were the getting the
attention that some less chronic issues get.
Karen C - California
Lucreti...@florence.it writes:
>
>And never forget - women were expected to quietly leave before their
>pregnancies showed.
Yep. I'm a "miracle". According to the date my mother was finally allowed to
leave her job, I was born at four months gestation. :)
Darla
<gillm...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>Sorry, folks,
>
>For heavens sake, develop a sense of humor, and learn to laugh. There is
>nothing particularly disparaging in these jokes, as long as you take it in
>fun.
Interesting that so long as *you* think it's funny, then you have a
sense of humor. If *we* don't find it amusing, we *don't* have senses
of humor.
Dianne Lewandowski
your script, Gillian).
Often times, hearing another point of view wakes people up to another
point of view. There isn't just a "one way" or the "other way". Often
views are many faceted. I've learned a lot from some posts here. I've
been corrected in my assumptions - often learning from them. Sometimes
I reject another's view, other times I don't but try to include it in my
thinking process. Sometimes I have to be hit with it a few times before
I begin to understand. Dissent has its merits.
As a matter of fact, I have wanted to post my own "view" on: "If I was
headmistress of a needlework school," and set up a criteria. I have it
all typed and ready to go. If only it wouldn't stir up a hornets nest.
What I'm truly trying to do is get other "viewpoints" that might have
strong merit. If only people would look at it that way. <grin> Rather
like a scholarly approach. Not quite the U.S. Constitution, but drawing
from many great thinkers to come up with an "ideal" that can always be
tweaked by amendment. <smile>
And along these lines: what would be more correct (does anyone think)
when relating to "peculiar" types of embroideries that arise in certain
areas of the globe. I was given the word "ethnic", which I used, but
today an idea struck me that perhaps a better word would be "regional".
So, I looked them both up. However, like the words
"premier/premiere", I'm having trouble discerning which is a better fit.
<another grin>
Dianne
Gillian Murray wrote:
> I still think it is much better to laugh, or shrug things off ( attributing
> it to stupidity, if you will) than take every statement apart analytically.
> You will never make everyone agree with you (not a "Darla" you, but a
> general "you"), and life is far to short to try to change people's opinions;
> there will always be the other half who do not believe what "you" think, and
> they are equally convinced that "you" are wrong. It is a waste of time and
> energy doing this.
>
> Now, after a nice Christmas dinner with neighbors, I am going to relax, and
> look over my "stitchy" gifts!!
>
> Merry Christmas to all
>
> Gillian
>
>
> "Darla" <dar...@mindspring.clothescom> wrote in message
> news:9hmmuvgakqeelaqaf...@4ax.com...
Dr. Brat
> I still think it is much better to laugh, or shrug things off ( attributing
> it to stupidity, if you will) than take every statement apart analytically.
But you don't shrug things off. You're not shrugging this off and I
have several times received email from you telling me that I shouldn't
have said things I said or that I should let things go. That's not
exactly shrugging it off, is it?
> You will never make everyone agree with you (not a "Darla" you, but a
> general "you"), and life is far to short to try to change people's opinions;
I'm not looking to make everyone agree with me, but I see no reason to
sit silent over what I think is wrong. Would you have counselled people
that life is far too short to try to change laws keeping women or blacks
from voting? My sister is gay. Do I want the same rights for her and
her partner that I and my husband have? You better believe it. Life is
too short NOT to try to change people's opinions on that one.
> there will always be the other half who do not believe what "you" think, and
> they are equally convinced that "you" are wrong. It is a waste of time and
> energy doing this.
That's your opinion. But you'll never convince me that it's a waste of
time and energy to point out the places in our culture where women are
still portrayed as inferior to me. I have no problem with different,
but I will work to change the view that we're inferior wherever I
encounter it, even if it's in what you see as a harmless joke. You
won't change my opinion that such things are not harmless. There's your
waste of time and energy. You don't like my activism? Shrug it off.
Elizabeth
Mirjam Bruck-Cohen
`things` , esp if you speak about Needle crafts.
Techniques variate a LOT , depending on Local materials + acquired
materials , by local merchants or as a left over [become `tradition`]
of Invaders from Ages ago, or Merchants that went through the area,
or a tribe that settled in, sometimes a generation or 2 ago.
Thus i would be very careful to use the word Regional , remember the
Indian =American Native Navaho blankets that were eventually inspired
by the pictures of one of the trade post [white] keepers who drew
pictures of Blnakets the white people will buy. Or the Cottons in
India [Asia ] being dyed and painted according to English taste with
patterns drawn of Chineese Ceramics. Tribal would be the better
deffinition , and this too has to be reserved.
I have read books about the same technique , or historical background
and many a time they differ a LOT . Thus if you want to be considered
an Authority, you might have to include more than one version of each
a technique or a historical `fact`. You must be well read about the
Moving around of tribes , and merchants, in ancient times as well as
quite contemporary. You must know about Local rules , know many terms,
If you can see this developements as a big river , that collects
waters from other smaller rivers , but from which people also take
water into their grounds . than you might have the method to describe
All the "Other ways!!" . As to seting a criteria ???? Why would you
want to do that ??? Why bot encourage people to learn well and than
Make their OWN criteria ?
mirjam
Mirjam Bruck-Cohen
do i ``understand` what people write????,
Elizabeth , since this text or similar texts have appeared even before
Internet times , i vaguely remember an Art Buchwald text about it or
part of it ,, i thought it was a smiler . and not really worth a post,
besides a nice thank you . Certainly Not such a itemized answer,,, but
have it your way. In many countries Men are indeed paid more for same
work , we are not happy about it , but just Cynical lists like this
sometimes Help to Put this fact on the Discussion table!!!! more than
weeks and months of plain letters and protests.
mirjam
Mirjam Bruck-Cohen
>sit silent over what I think is wrong.
silent over what They Think is wrong , you are all flames over them...
> Would you have counselled people
>that life is far too short to try to change laws keeping women or blacks
>from voting? My sister is gay. Do I want the same rights for her and
>her partner that I and my husband have? You better believe it. Life is
>too short NOT to try to change people's opinions on that one.
>That's your opinion. But you'll never convince me that it's a waste of
>time and energy to point out the places in our culture where women are
>still portrayed as inferior to me.
> I have no problem with different,
>but I will work to change the view that we're inferior wherever I
>encounter it, even if it's in what you see as a harmless joke. You
>won't change my opinion that such things are not harmless.
Anti-semitic YOU decide it is not , and tell me i don`t understand
English ,,,,, Now lady i tell you that this jokes as such were used by
many Females , to convince males about Our worse lot.
I advice you to read the famous poster of the Guerrilla Girls ,
The advantages of being a woman Artist ,, same cynicism ,,, in
different ways.
Your `activism` lacks a lot of you only see your part and side of the
story.
mirjam
Mirjam Bruck-Cohen
places that can change , helped me , sometimes more than regular
discussions. But you have to careully think where to Use this stuff.
When i was enlarging , enriching and Enhancing the courses of
Handcraft instructors , most of which were young women, I had to put
my suggestions before the supervisors and Upper level of the Ministry
of Education, most of which were men, most of which were not Handcraft
profeesional nore amateurs. I had a very Important superviser grab a
cloth and say ;"I know everything about cloth , i wrote the Book about
waht has to be taught , So how come your woven cloth is so soft?" Or
another one who got my suggested program for teaching all terminology
not only in Hebrew/ and or Arabic, but also make it compulsory to
teach the English Terminology, as a tool for further reading and self
learning , for the students, And his reaction:" Why do they have to
read ? why can`t just embroider ?" . i started amongst other
discussions also to include lists of jokes like the above jokes that
Fred posted here. They were sometimes more effective than long hours
of discussions.
mirjam
<gillm...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>I still think it is much better to laugh, or shrug things off ( attributing
>it to stupidity, if you will) than take every statement apart analytically.
>You will never make everyone agree with you (not a "Darla" you, but a
>general "you"), and life is far to short to try to change people's opinions;
>there will always be the other half who do not believe what "you" think, and
>they are equally convinced that "you" are wrong. It is a waste of time and
>energy doing this.
>
>Now, after a nice Christmas dinner with neighbors, I am going to relax, and
>look over my "stitchy" gifts!!
>
>Merry Christmas to all
>
>Gillian
>
>
>"Darla" <dar...@mindspring.clothescom> wrote in message
>news:9hmmuvgakqeelaqaf...@4ax.com...
Linda D.
Dianne, I would love to read your thoughts on how you would
want to run a needlework school. I think it might create a very
interesting discussion :)
take care, Linda :)
On Thu, 25 Dec 2003 18:08:26 -0600, Dianne Lewandowski
<dia...@heritageshoppe.com> wrote:
><snipped>
>Often times, hearing another point of view wakes people up to another
>point of view.
><snipped>
>As a matter of fact, I have wanted to post my own "view" on: "If I was
>headmistress of a needlework school," and set up a criteria. I have it
>all typed and ready to go. If only it wouldn't stir up a hornets nest.
> What I'm truly trying to do is get other "viewpoints" that might have
>strong merit. If only people would look at it that way. <grin> Rather
>like a scholarly approach. Not quite the U.S. Constitution, but drawing
>from many great thinkers to come up with an "ideal" that can always be
>tweaked by amendment. <smile>
><snipped>
>Dianne
Vancouver Island, bc.ca :) (remove 'nospam' to reply)
See samples of my work at: www.members.shaw.ca/deugau
FKBABB
when relating to "peculiar" types of embroideries that arise in certain
areas of the globe. I was given the word "ethnic", which I used, but
today an idea struck me that perhaps a better word would be "regional".
So, I looked them both up. However, like the words
"premier/premiere", I'm having trouble discerning which is a better fit.
<another grin>
Dianne
I've been puzzling over this question myself in trying to get down on paper the
results of some research I've been doing on a unique (as far as I can tell)
technique for cross-stitch embroidery. It's not "regional," in that many other
forms of the cross-stitch are practiced in the region where this style arose.
"Ethnic" I find too Anglo-centric a term. So, I'm playing around with
"traditional," "tribal," "people's," "peasant," and "folk," alone and in
combination.
Annie
emerald
"FKBABB" <fkb...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031226133531...@mb-m15.aol.com...
> I've been puzzling over this question myself in trying to get down on
paper the
> results of some research I've been doing on a unique (as far as I can
tell)
> technique for cross-stitch embroidery. It's not "regional," in that many
other
> forms of the cross-stitch are practiced in the region where this style
arose.
> "Ethnic" I find too Anglo-centric a term. So, I'm playing around with
> "traditional," "tribal," "people's," "peasant," and "folk," alone and in
> combination.
Interesting. I've always felt the same about the word "ethnic". "Peasant"
and "primitive" used as descriptives always strike me as condescending -
sort of Lady-of-the Manor-ish.
I think traditional is good, combined with another adjective, maybe a
geographic one.
emerald
Karen C - California
writes:
>I've always felt the same about the word "ethnic". "Peasant"
>and "primitive" used as descriptives always strike me as condescending
Indigenous?
Historical?
Local?
Skip the modifiers and simply say "typical of the Black Forest region"? Or
"numerous 17th century examples of this are found on folk costumes in what is
now Budapest"?
I mean, what was "the in thing" in the 1400s was not necessarily "the in thing"
in the 1800s, so if you just tag it as "Moldavian", it may lead some readers to
think that this is the only style ever used in Moldavia, when, in fact, a
century earlier everyone was doing rustic monochrome cross-stitch on burlap and
a century later everyone was doing high-falutin lacework on fine silk.
And how was it used? Maybe hardanger was only done on aprons to show the dress
underneath, but never on blouses where it might show bare skin? Or only single
girls could wear peacocks and married women had to embroider only blackbirds on
their clothes? Or only men could have dragons, while girls' clothing was
required to have flowers?
Dianne Lewandowski
from this "region" - even if they practise other similar stitches there
and elsewhere, isn't that still "regional", because it came from there
originally. Like Mountmellick. It arose from a specific area - so
that's "regional", even though the Brits took it from there and did
their own "versions".
Interesting, I asked my husband at dinner, and he felt "ethnic" was more
race-oriented, or "brown" oriented in its nuance. He liked "regional"
because it doesn't have such negative connotations.
Thanks for the input!!!
Dianne
Dianne Lewandowski
to talk about and most of us know what it is. It wasn't done in this
peculiar style prior to the 1800's, but it's still a regional
embroidery. All the stitches were known elsewhere, for eons, but not
worked in this specific manner and in the specific drawings used.
Peasant and primitive: I agree with you. Not good word choices. Some
of these embroideries are far from either general connotations these
words might have.
I'm talking specifically about a place wherein a particular embroidery
stitch, technique or style developed. It can get muddy to talk about
embroideries of the Ottoman empire because it was so vast. But
"regions" within this empire developed unique stitches (Mushabek - don't
ask me the correct spelling at this instant). So it's a "regional" stitch.
I have to use a broad term covering embroideries that are distinct in
style and use of stitch. Old Hedebo is similar to Schwalm, and uses
similar openwork stitches, but they are "distinct" regional embroideries.
There's just got to be a "name" that covers this. :-)
Dianne
FKBABB
from this "region" - even if they practise other similar stitches there
and elsewhere, isn't that still "regional", because it came from there
originally. Like Mountmellick. It arose from a specific area - so
that's "regional", even though the Brits took it from there and did
As I understand it, post-1800 Mountmellick did not arise in an "area" or a
"region" but in the mind of a single, socially-conscious Englishwoman who
sought to alleviate poverty in a small corner of rural Ireland by helping
destitute women use a pre-existing skill (the ability to use a needle) to
manufacture something that could be sold for desperately-needed income to the
middle-class English market. She thought that British strivers who couldn't
afford the highly-fashionable, but much more expensive, far more delicate,
Scottish white work, would buy the coarser work *she* designed (and taught her
Irish workers to stitch) using inexpensive materials, sort of like today when
people (myself included) will shop in Target for Pottery Barn knock-offs. And,
she was right. The pieces sold very well until machine-made whitework was
developed toward the end of the century, knocking the bottom out of the market
for hand-made white work of all types. So, to me, Montmellick is a
manufactured style, designed specifically with market considerations in mind.
It is an "ethnic" embroidery only in the sense that those who initially
stitched the pieces were of Irish ethnicity. And, for those poor workers, it
was probably more of a radical than a traditional form of needlework, as they
hitherto had probably had neither the money nor the materials to do much
stitching besides darning.
I hope the foregoing doesn't sound like a rant. I'm finding this an
interesting discussion.
Annie
Karen C - California
<dia...@heritageshoppe.com> writes:
>Thanks for the input!!!
Let me know if you want me to put on my editor hat and have a look through the
final text for you.
Mirjam Bruck-Cohen
into "Tribal" , or "Ethnic" Excactly because they are Not synonyms ,
>and "primitive" used as descriptives always strike me as condescending -
>sort of Lady-of-the Manor-ish.
synonyms in them selves.
There is Nothing condescending about the word Ethnic , unless you want
or mean to use it as such.
>geographic one.
to separate between , ancient traditions and rather newly aquired
habits.
mirjam
>
Dianne Lewandowski
style, with its own peculiar stitches found nowhere else. It was
specific types of thread on specific grounds. No one else did it. It
also had specific fringe (usually) that was knitted. It is unique to
this area (region).
Just because something is made for income doesn't mean it isn't unique.
Just because somebody from another country started the "process"
doesn't mean it isn't unique to the region where it was practised.
There is hardly a stitch known to man that wasn't done somewhere else in
the world. But often, certain regions (or groups of people) do it in
their own unique "fashion".
I've looked through a lot of clothing and embroidery books (certainly
not all ever printed), and the type of wool on wool embroidery practised
in Australia is not anything like that practised elsewhere in the world.
There are unique stitches and unique ways of combining stitches.
None of the stitches are "new". In New Mexico, from Spanish influence,
Colcha embroidery "became". But it's simply Bakhara couching only 2
threads, and wool, and unique ways of using color that make it distinct.
Chikan embroidery is from India, and - although there are a few unique
stitches employed that began there (such as the phunda knot) - basically
it's a knock-off of fine French embroideries. And the embroideries of
Ayreshire (Scotland) are simply a "style" that evolved from the French.
Often, the only way to tell the difference is in the construction
process of the finished goods. And, of course, the embroideries from
India - while trying to copy European patterns - really are distinct
because of their own art/cultural influence. The unique way the Scots
embroidered and designed, once you study it, are unique in most cases.
Sometimes the French influence creeps in.
Just like the space shuttle of Russia is different from the space
shuttle of the U.S. Same thing - different "style" based on their
cultural influence.
I would think that, in many parts of the world, embroidery was often
practised to make a living. :-)
To me, what separates embroideries is either stitches unique to a given
style, or color unique (like the Hopi's used different colors and
designs, but many American Indians made blankets - but all distinct).
So, these styles and peculiar stitches developed in certain "regions" -
whether or not they originated there, and whether or not they did it to
keep from starving or to embellish wedding dresses (weaving of Lithuania
and the unique construction techniques which are crocheted - including
the buttons).
Anyway, as I re-read what you wrote and I just typed - perhaps we are
talking about something different. Are you referring to something else
and I missed your point?
Dianne
Dianne Lewandowski
covers all the things we're talking about. A "chapter" heading. So
that when, in the index, somebody sees the "chapter title", they know
what the writing will be about. :-)
I've been given the word "ethnic", but I'm not fond of it and wondered
if others thought "regional" might be a better fit. It doesn't matter
*when* the embroidery was practised, or even if it changes through time.
If it's something that has been documented as having arisen from a
group of peoples - even if only practised for 50 years but the work is
of such character that modern embroiderers wish to emulate it because
it's unique - then there has to be an all-encompassing term other than
"ethnic", I would think. ??
Dianne
Karen C - California wrote:
Cheryl Isaak
To use your example:
Mountmellick, from Mountmellick, Ireland. Uses (these) unique stitches with
fiber X on ground Y.
Chikan embroidery, from India, strong influenced by the French tradition of
xxxxxxx and has these unique stitches.
Obliviously, you can make this much smoother to read - I have a tremendous
headache starting, I think I have the start of a sinus infection (my parents
adopted a cat and my sister smokes and guess where I spent Xmas Day).
Cheryl
Figuring any leisure will be spent knitting
On 12/27/03 8:12 AM, in article bsk0ki$coet8$1...@ID-164987.news.uni-berlin.de,
emerald
"Mirjam Bruck-Cohen" <mir...@actcom.co.il> wrote in message
news:3fed4316...@ar.news.verio.net...
> The trend in Museology nowadays is to exchange the term , "primitive"
> into "Tribal" , or "Ethnic" Excactly because they are Not synonyms ,
> >Interesting. I've always felt the same about the word "ethnic".
"Peasant"
> >and "primitive" used as descriptives always strike me as condescending -
> >sort of Lady-of-the Manor-ish.
> Nore is Ethnic Synonym to Peasant or Primitive, which are also not
> synonyms in them selves.
I didn't say, or intend to imply, that ethnic was synonymous with either
peasant or primitive.
> There is Nothing condescending about the word Ethnic , unless you want
> or mean to use it as such.
I am also aware that "ethnic", in fact, applies to each and every one of us.
However, in the way the word is currently used in North America, it refers
exclusively to things that are non-European in origin and that's an
incorrect usage, IMO. As someone already said, it's too Anglo-centric.
emerald
Mirjam Bruck-Cohen
ans Australian things ,,,,
mirjam
On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 15:27:46 GMT, "emerald" <ejk...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Darla
<dia...@heritageshoppe.com> wrote:
>Interesting, I asked my husband at dinner, and he felt "ethnic" was more
>race-oriented, or "brown" oriented in its nuance. He liked "regional"
>because it doesn't have such negative connotations.
But there can be different ethnicities in a region. Take "Eastern
Europe" as just one example. By definition, it includes Russians,
Poles, Czechs, Slovakians, Ukrainians, Belorussians.... Mexicans
don't include themselves in the concept "Central American."
Dr. Brat
It's even more complex than that: Poles, Czechs, and Slovaks very much
object to being called Eastern European and prefer the term Central
Europe. (By definitions preceding the Cold War, Eastern Europe refers
to those countries using Cyrillic rather than the Latin alphabet.)
However, one could break the regions down smaller: Polish, Bohemian,
Ruthenian, Carpathian, Kashubian, Eastern Siberia, South Siberia...
That would perhaps be more useful, since the embroidery typical of, for
example, Polish Galicia, is different than that of the northern area
known as Warmia.
KDLark
>don't include themselves in the concept "Central American."
Which isn't surprising, seeing how Mexico is part of North America. : )
Katrina L.
Dianne Lewandowski
> Why not just give the region and then give any influences?
Because I need a blanket term for all these types. Like a title page. :-)
Dianne
Dianne Lewandowski
> However, one could break the regions down smaller: Polish, Bohemian,
> Ruthenian, Carpathian, Kashubian, Eastern Siberia, South Siberia... That
> would perhaps be more useful, since the embroidery typical of, for
> example, Polish Galicia, is different than that of the northern area
> known as Warmia.
I understand that I can point out (or to) a typical embroidery by
saying: Carpathian embroidery (if indeed they have a distinct style).
But what I need is a catch-all phrase as a "header", and THEN list the
styles I'm looking for in more exact terms, such as "colcha,
Mountmellick, Casalguidi, Schwalm et al."
I know it's hard. <grin> That's why I'm asking to hopefully get some
insight from those that know more than I.
If I wrote a book with an all-encompassing title, and each chapter
listed a specific embroidery style and explained it and pictured it,
such as Chapter I: Carpathian; Chapter II: Polish Galicia
What can I call the book? (No, I can't call it Embroideries of the
World). There's raised embroidery, crewel embroidery, wool-on-wool
embroidery, chenille embroidery, cross stitch embroidery, Brazilian
embroidery, and then there's these *regional* types like Schwalm and
Casalguidi and Ayreshire and Mountmellick and Chikan et al.
I'm uncomfortable with the use of the word Ethnic, so was hoping to come
up with a better terminology. Maybe there isn't one. <smile>
Dianne
Dr. Brat
> If I wrote a book with an all-encompassing title, and each chapter
> listed a specific embroidery style and explained it and pictured it,
> such as Chapter I: Carpathian; Chapter II: Polish Galicia
>
> What can I call the book? (No, I can't call it Embroideries of the
> World). There's raised embroidery, crewel embroidery, wool-on-wool
> embroidery, chenille embroidery, cross stitch embroidery, Brazilian
> embroidery, and then there's these *regional* types like Schwalm and
> Casalguidi and Ayreshire and Mountmellick and Chikan et al.
>
> I'm uncomfortable with the use of the word Ethnic, so was hoping to come
> up with a better terminology. Maybe there isn't one. <smile>
I think regional works fine, but that's just me.
Joyce from RSA
Showing geographic and historic influences.
Joyce in RSA.
"Dianne Lewandowski" <dia...@heritageshoppe.com> wrote in message
news:bsl3b3$e508h$1...@ID-164987.news.uni-berlin.de...
Mirjam Bruck-Cohen
Museological contemporary literature and see what terminologies they
use now adays. 2. Check within yourself , what is the Problem or
uneasiness you feel towards this very beautiful, Neutral term Ethnic.
All the best
mirjam
Tia Mary-remove nekoluvr to reply
>...... I need a blanket term for all these types. Like a title page. :-)
You could always include the term "Selected" in the title and have something
like "Selected Regional Needlework from Around the World" as a title. This
lets people know that you aren't using absolutely EVERY type of needlework
available but you have selected those types YOU, as the author, feel are
pertinent to the needlework skills being discussed. CiaoMeow >^;;^<
.
PAX, Tia Mary >^;;^< Queen of Kitties
Angels can't show their wings on earth but nothing was ever said about their
WHISKERS!!
Nothing is complete without a few cat hairs!
Dianne Lewandowski
"regional".
Dianne
Mirjam Bruck-Cohen
that spread their knowledge in many regions ,,,,
mirjam
Tia Mary-remove nekoluvr to reply
>I don`t think regional is appropiate , becuase of the many Numads ,
>that spread their knowledge in many regions ,,,,
Nomadic peoples DO stay in their chosen part of the world (assuming there are
no unwanted "geo-political influences") and that area can be called a region.
This is not to say that nomadic people have never gone outside of their chosen
area, just that, as a group, they don't **usually** do this. Bedouin tribes,
for instance (the first nomadic tribe that comes to mind), don't **usually**
travel all the way up to Europe or over to the Orient. If memory serves, they
pretty much stay in the desert regions of the Middle East and Northern Africa.
CiaoMeow >^;;^<
Cheryl Isaak
"Dianne Lewandowski" <dia...@heritageshoppe.com> wrote:
How about Regions?????
Cheryl
Mirjam Bruck-Cohen
regional would fit , even numad tribes, and i thank you that you use
the term Beduin ,,,as first. But let me add something that slipped you
notice in my former letter, When Dianne wants to speak about the
developement of a certain needlework , i understood that she wanted to
include Historical facts as well . Historical some numads , traveled
through a continent and a half , sometimes through 3 continents !!!
The Beduins of Santa -Catharina , for example , will tell you that
they came from Europe and that originaly they were a Roma tribe ,
Others Beduin tribes now living in the Negev , came originaly from
Saudia, others from other places , Atlas Mountains etc, Mid Africa
etc... I was thinking more about the HUNES, Numad tribes that
eventually settled in what is now Hungary , still you can`t dismiss
their Asiatic , Indo - influences . And of course you can`t dismiss
the Islamite ruling , from Spain through Africa - almost to Wiena .I
was thinking about the moving of the Druze , By the way their
Needlework is the most facinating of Cultural inheritance , that goes
way back to the Great Persian /Greek wars . Going back to Hungarian
embroidery , you can see the Austrian- Germanic influence. In the
region of the late USSR , not only did tribes and nations influence
each other , but the tendency of the low nobility to learn French ,
brought about an influence of French needlework , which in it`s time
was influenced , by Italian needlework , which in it`s time was
influenced by Chinese influence ,,, Not to forget that all around the
Mediterenean , the Phoenicians , left their cultural marks ,
That is why i think Regional is the wrong word ,
mirjam
On 28 Dec 2003 22:32:19 GMT, catwo...@aol.comnekoluvr (Tia
Darla
They don't consider themselves part of North America, either. But
we're talking the people of the region here, not what geographers have
to say about it.
Boohoo1971
over your shoulder?
<< 2. Wedding plans take care of themselves. Lazy or are you trustworthy?
<< . Chocolate is just another snack.To be eaten morning, noon and night
4. Car mechanics tell us the truth. How do you know?
<< 5. We never have to drive to another gas station because this one's just too
icky. You fill the family car with gas?????
6. Same work, more pay....and you are proud of that...shame on you!!!!
7.Wrinkles add character...year, but what character, Pa Kettle?
8. Wedding dress, *8,000, tux rental - $100...cheapskate
9. We keep our last name. How old fashioned!!!
10. The occasional well-rendered belch is pracrtically expected. Yep, noted,
and ignored
11. New shoes don't cut, blister, or mangle our feet...what new shoes?
12. One mood, ALL the time...define mood...bossy? dull, non-communicative?
13. Phone calls are over in 30 seconds flat...and what did you learn?
14.A five-day vacartion requires only one suitcase...refer to #7
15. We can open all our own jars...twice a year, big deal!
16. We get extra credit for the slightest act of thoughtfulness...that is
shock showing!
17. If someone forgets to invite us, he or she can still be our friend...
after you crash the party???
18.Our underwear is $8.95 for a three-pack...boooooooring
19. Three pairs of shoes are more than enough...and they look it!
20. We don't have to stop and think of which way to turn a nut on a bolt...you
don't???? big deal
21. We almost never have strap problems in public. Almost never????? When you
do, now that is interesting
22.We are unable to see wrinkles in our clothes. We've noticed and graciously
understand
23. The same hair style lasts for years, maybe decades. Stuck in a rut?
24. We don't have to shave below our neck. No danger of cutting your throat is
a good thing
25. We can "do" our nails with a pocket knife. Galvanized or roofing?
26. One wallet, one belt and one pair of shoes, one color all
seasons....dullsville
27. We have freedom of choice concering growing a mustache...you do, big deal!
28. We might make the odd error in judgement, but we never make mistakes...so
what is the big deal, all women know that
29. We learned not separate the colors from the whites because the washing
machine just mixes them up anyway... You know how to run the washing maching
and you love shorts of a different color, or colors. Congratulations!
30. We can do Christmas shopping for 25 relative on December 24, in 45
minutes...that is called making a list and giving it the the female in your
life.
Sorry, gang, I couldn't resist after playing oh so very nice with family during
Christmas. Now I feel better. Happy New Year all. Boo
Brenda Lewis
location, spreads somewhere else, and mutates just like the flu. Why
not use the word variant. :-)
Dianne Lewandowski wrote:
> What can I call the book? (No, I can't call it Embroideries of the
> World). There's raised embroidery, crewel embroidery, wool-on-wool
> embroidery, chenille embroidery, cross stitch embroidery, Brazilian
> embroidery, and then there's these *regional* types like Schwalm and
> Casalguidi and Ayreshire and Mountmellick and Chikan et al.
>
> I'm uncomfortable with the use of the word Ethnic, so was hoping to come
> up with a better terminology. Maybe there isn't one. <smile>
--
Brenda Lewis Rhianno...@netscape.net
WIP: "Pink Baby" photo frame, Candamar
I'm BAAAAACK!
Mirjam Bruck-Cohen
chika...@gmail.com
halwi...@gmail.com
http://www.chikanbarn.com/