Need stitchers' advice
Annie...@aol.com
Hello fellow stitchers!
I am a constant reader here but this is my first post. I work at our
local needlework shop and we had a situation arise the other day. I'd
like your advice on how we can best handle it.
A customer came in with three pieces of finished needlework she wanted
puff-mounted and framed in some lovely handpainted wooden frames. The
total cost of the framing job is a tad bit over $100. Not a small fee.
The problem is her needlework is........less than good. It's fairly
awful to be honest with you. She did not ask for our opinion on her
needlework but when someone is spending THAT kind of money, you'd think
they are proud of their accomplishments.
Our question is: Do we say something to her? Do we suggest ways she can
better improve her stitching technique? Do we suggest classes? Or do we
keep our mouths shut?
Please help us. This woman is a regular customer and we really
appreciate her business. We don't want to offend her but we do want to
help. Thanks in advance for your consideration and responses.
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Sherri L Wilcauskas
A little editing to appease the bandwidth gods...
Annie...@aol.com wrote:
: A customer came in with three pieces of finished needlework she wanted
: puff-mounted and framed in some lovely handpainted wooden frames. The
: total cost of the framing job is a tad bit over $100. Not a small fee.
: The problem is her needlework is........less than good. It's fairly
: awful to be honest with you. She did not ask for our opinion on her
: needlework but when someone is spending THAT kind of money, you'd think
: they are proud of their accomplishments.
There's an implicit assumption here that troubles me, I'll admit.
I'd bet you the cost of framing (and I'm a poor grad student, so
this is a big bet *wink*) that she *is* proud of her accomplishments.
As well she should be, I think. Even if the work in question is
ruddy awful, she's continuing a centuries old tradition of handiwork,
and she's actually finishing projects, which is *certainly* something
to be proud of!!! :)
: Our question is: Do we say something to her? Do we suggest ways she can
: better improve her stitching technique? Do we suggest classes? Or do we
: keep our mouths shut?
: Please help us. This woman is a regular customer and we really
: appreciate her business. We don't want to offend her but we do want to
: help. Thanks in advance for your consideration and responses.
My thought would be to stay as far away from sounding judgemental as
is humanly possible. Does your store have a newsletter for regular
and valued customers? (If not, it might be something worth thinking
about) Have you asked her if she wants to be on the mailing list?
That way, she'll learn about classes being offered; if she's interested
in learning more about her craft, she can take advantage of the
opportunity, if she's not interested, there's nothing you can do about
it. *Maybe* it's possible to encourage her to take a class if
you present the idea in the context of "You're such a wonderful
person, we'd love to see you at this event and share our mutual love
of stitching"----but you have to be careful not to let judgementalism
show through. Only you know her personality well enough to gauge
how threatened she'd be by your criticism....
Sherri
Hrswoman
Stay out of this one completely. I would not in any way give your opinion
on this lady's stitching. Not everyone is good at everything. I am sure
she is proud of her work and any criticism will probably hurt her feeling
immensly.
The suggestion to <<*Maybe* it's possible to encourage her to take a
class if you present the idea in the context of "You're such a wonderful
person, we'd love to see you at this event and share our mutual love of
stitching"->> from Sherri is a wonderfully tactful way to offer her an
opportunity to improve her work.
If she chooses not to take it, however, there is nothing you should do or
say about her stitching. As a business woman myself, I can tell you that
if any employee of mine ever made any critical remarks to any customer of
mine there would be h@#$ to pay. People who are will to spend $100 on
framing are not customers you want to lose. <G>
I would take it up with your employer before I said anything remotely
critical about this woman's work.
Leslie
**************************************************************************
*********************
***There is so much bad in the best of us, And so much good in the worst
of us,***
***It ill behooves any of us, To talk about the rest of us.***
Lynn
In article <8747698...@dejanews.com>,
Annie...@aol.com wrote:
>Hello fellow stitchers!
>
>I am a constant reader here but this is my first post. I work at our
>local needlework shop and we had a situation arise the other day. I'd
>like your advice on how we can best handle it.
>
>A customer came in with three pieces of finished needlework she wanted
>puff-mounted and framed in some lovely handpainted wooden frames. The
>total cost of the framing job is a tad bit over $100. Not a small fee.
>The problem is her needlework is........less than good. It's fairly
>awful to be honest with you. She did not ask for our opinion on her
>needlework but when someone is spending THAT kind of money, you'd think
>they are proud of their accomplishments.
>
>Our question is: Do we say something to her? Do we suggest ways she can
>better improve her stitching technique? Do we suggest classes? Or do we
>keep our mouths shut?
>
[snip]
1. Keep your mouths shut.
2. $100 is not a lot of money to me.
3. Once it's framed, you'll never have to look at it again.
4. How dare you criticize a customer.
5. Your opinion is more valuable to you than to others.
6. You might feel differently if you found out it was her disabled mother
who completed it.
7. One man's trash, another's treasure.
JMO
Lynn
Gwen
In article <8747698...@dejanews.com>,
> Annie...@aol.com wrote:
>
>Hello fellow stitchers!
>
>I am a constant reader here but this is my first post. I work at our
>local needlework shop and we had a situation arise the other day. I'd
>like your advice on how we can best handle it.
>
>A customer came in with three pieces of finished needlework she wanted
>puff-mounted and framed in some lovely handpainted wooden frames. The
>total cost of the framing job is a tad bit over $100. Not a small
fee.
>The problem is her needlework is........less than good. It's fairly
>awful to be honest with you. She did not ask for our opinion on her
>needlework but when someone is spending THAT kind of money, you'd
think
>they are proud of their accomplishments.
>
>Our question is: Do we say something to her? Do we suggest ways she
can
>better improve her stitching technique? Do we suggest classes? Or do
we
>keep our mouths shut?
>
[snip]
Maybe I am a little over-tired today, but I feel really bad about
this. I am grateful that I don't have anything at a framer's right now
or I would be thinking that it was my stuff.
Some people do needlework for different reasons, and some have different
motivations, etc. I know that if I hadn't found this newsgroup, I would
not have ever achieved what I have in the past year.
I started out with little kits and eventually did one larger piece. I
framed that piece about nine months ago. There were knots everywhere,
the crosses aren't crossed in the same direction, and thread carried for
inches in some places! I am still proud of it. It got me through a
rough time and when I finally finished it, I was able to put that bad
period in my life behind me.
I have learned so many things from RCTN. The only experience that I had
before was Michael's. I never would have known that things like
railroading, Hardanger, Waterlilies, or even MLI (gasp!) existed.
I guess what I am trying to say that some people are not as fortunate as
I am to have great teachers like ya'll and some don't have the desire to
learn more. Live and Let Live. Cherish each piece, good or bad IYO,
our art work is passed on by every piece, not just the great ones.
(sorry, I am slowly descending my soapbox now)
Gwen
Connie Sue Rogers
Annie...@aol.com wrote:
>
> Hello fellow stitchers!
>
> I am a constant reader here but this is my first post. I work at our
> local needlework shop and we had a situation arise the other day. I'd
> like your advice on how we can best handle it.
>
> A customer came in with three pieces of finished needlework she wanted
> puff-mounted and framed in some lovely handpainted wooden frames. The
> total cost of the framing job is a tad bit over $100. Not a small fee.
> The problem is her needlework is........less than good. It's fairly
> awful to be honest with you. She did not ask for our opinion on her
> needlework but when someone is spending THAT kind of money, you'd think
> they are proud of their accomplishments.
>
> Our question is: Do we say something to her? Do we suggest ways she can
> better improve her stitching technique? Do we suggest classes? Or do we
> keep our mouths shut?
>
> appreciate her business. We don't want to offend her but we do want to
> help. Thanks in advance for your consideration and responses.
>
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
work.Why would you even think of hurting someones feelings.She enjoys
stitching and the way I look at it the more you do it the better you
get.Besides it's her money why should you care how she spends it.I think
it would be very mean to say anything negative to anyone and discourage
them.Why does it bother you so much that her work is not perfect as long
as she enjoys what she's doing and is having fun God Bless Her. Connie
Blaine & Mary Sauve-Miller
Hrswoman wrote:
> Stay out of this one completely. I would not in any way give your
> opinion
> on this lady's stitching. Not everyone is good at everything. I am
> sure
> she is proud of her work and any criticism will probably hurt her
> feeling
> immensly.
>
> The suggestion to <<*Maybe* it's possible to encourage her to take a
> class if you present the idea in the context of "You're such a
> wonderful
> person, we'd love to see you at this event and share our mutual love
> of
> stitching"->> from Sherri is a wonderfully tactful way to offer her an
>
> opportunity to improve her work.
>
<snip>
> I would take it up with your employer before I said anything remotely
> critical about this woman's work.
>
> Leslie
I went into a stitch shop to have a piece that I had finished framed, I
asked them about my stitching as I wanted to become a model stitcher for
a prestigious designer! They totally ripped my piece apart and told me
that I would never make it! Than they proceeded to use the most
expensive materials to frame my piece! I ended up going home and cried
for a while! I totally ripped myself apart than pulled myself back up
and said what the heck I'm sending this piece in and will try to become
a model stitcher any ways, the worse that can happen is they will say
thanks but no thanks! I sent my piece in and within 2 weeks knew that I
had been selected as a model stitcher! : )
I have decided that I will no longer go to this shop for my framing
needs, unfortunately I still need them for many of my supplies! But,
when I took my latest piece in to be framed I had wanted teal matting
and she told it it would look awful and wouldn't even show me what it
would look like! I settled for less than what I wanted and am kicking
myself for not being more assertive, but I have signed up for one of
their long term classes and didn't want that tension between us and I
had already paid in full for the class!
Incidentally, I went into this same shop some weeks ago asking for help
with a stitch in Emie Bishops Walk the Gentle Path, and they had no
clue! I eventually figured them out myself and taught them it! Hmmm,
and I'm taking classes from them? I think it's time for me to move to
some organization that is more supportive and helpful! I personally
feel that they say what they say to actually get more money! In taking
classes ect...! But, I do know one thing, I no longer want to be a
victim to them! I always get compliments for my personal taste in
combining things and colors together, so I seriously doubt that my taste
in matting would be that awful! Besides I'm the one who is hanging it
my house!
I feel that the womans who piece is "awful" and "not deserving of the
expensive frame" is like we all were at one time! I don't think that
all of us were born stitchers and that we had to develop that skill over
the years! I think it's great that that woman worked hard to stitch the
piece, that she learned while she stitched it and most of all that she
FINISHED IT! Some of my early work, I wouldn't consider framing today,
but at the time I was proud of it! Right now, I have more UFO's than I
have finished pieces in my house! I'm not saying that I would settle
for less just to have my piece framed, just that it's important to
finish them! I learn each time I pick up something! I've learned so
much from all the ladies here and I know that I don't even know half of
all that I want to know when I die! Mary
Annie...@aol.com
I understand it's considered bad form to reply to your own comments but I
feel I must. Please understand I wasn't being nasty about this
customer's work. It's true there could be circumstances we aren't aware
of. But she's such a nice lady and we only wanted to help. I did say
that we don't wish to lose her as a customer or a friend. We are all
stitchers here - surely you must understand the desire to help others.
Haven't any of you ever tried to help a friend do something "better" or
perhaps more efficiently? That's all I meant. I never meant to imply
she shouldn't be proud of her work. You should have pride in everything
you do - not just cross-stitch. Sometimes wanting to help isn't all it's
cracked up to be.
Now I think I'll back into lurking. Thank you all for your responses,
kind and otherwise.
Gwen
>
> Now I think I'll back into lurking. Thank you all for your responses,
> kind and otherwise.
>
Please don't go back to only lurking. Everyone has something to give
this newsgroup, whether it is technique advice, a joke, personal stuff,
etc. That is what makes the newsgroup great.
Maybe it was just the wording of your first post that struck a cord in
so many readers.(me included) Your second post made me smile.
Gwen
BaT20
Maybe it's her children's work or some other loved one that has special
meaning and I would be very offended if the framer said anything about my
kid's stuff!
Two x over
i very very much agree iwth the other posters...you have no idea who
stitched it, and under what circumstances...she is proud of her work , and
SHE SHOULD BE!
i will also tell you something...the very first time i took a class, that
used specialty stitches....the owner yelled, yes yelled at me, because of
something on the back of the piece. i never went to the shop again....and
dont think too much of the person. i am very proud of my work, as is my
hubby and my family. obviously, someone else out there likes it, as i won
second place at the state fair for a shepherd's bush piece i did. however,
i am well aware of the fact that people like you, might and would find
fault with what i do.
she didnt ask your opinion, she asked for some stuff to be framed.
betsey
AZ XSer
Annie, I also work at a needlework shop with framing and we've found it's
best not to say anything unless we are asked for an opinion. When someone
spends a lot of time working a piece, then spends money on framing, they
might be offended if we were to comment on it. Even when they do ask for
our opinion, they often don't want to hear the truth. So I guess if you
knew them really well, you could say something if asked. Just one person's
opinion though.
Bettelou
BOneill007
Mary -
>They totally ripped my piece apart and told me
>that I would never make it! Than they proceeded to use the most
>expensive materials to frame my piece! I ended up going home and cried
>for a while!
What a crab that lady was! To say that about your work! Jeez - talk
about ignorant on her part, not to mention insensitive!
Every piece that I have ever stitched, from the first piece I stitched 19+
years ago, to the piece I'm currently working on now carrys a little bit of
me in it. And whether it looks professional, or maybe just "personalized",
it's still something that I am proud of.
To each his own taste. And the heck with those who don't like it. If the
woman was proud of her piece, she should have been! I'm sure she worked
hard on it! And that's what's important - that she likes it!!!
I'll quietly get off my soapbox now. Jeez - I must have had too much
caffeine <g>.
Sheri
Having an out-of-body experience, be back soon!
Current projects: X-mas ornaments, Dragon Dance - Dragons Dreams,
Trick-or-Treat Moon -CS & NW, 10/96, Harvest Witch - CS & NW, Oct. 10/96,
Violets and Lace - Earth Threads/Betsy Stinner
Anne Gwin
> A customer came in with three pieces of finished needlework she wanted
> puff-mounted and framed in some lovely handpainted wooden frames. The
> total cost of the framing job is a tad bit over $100. Not a small fee.
> The problem is her needlework is........less than good. It's fairly
> awful to be honest with you. She did not ask for our opinion on her
> needlework
And there's your answer. YOUR job is to shut up and frame it. HER job is
to pay your salary.
but when someone is spending THAT kind of money, you'd think
> they are proud of their accomplishments.
>
So what's 3 finished pieces? Chopped liver? If she weren't proud of it she
wouldn't be framing them. (And by the way, $100 for 3 pieces is chump
change. I saw a framing order for a TW once that cost $300.)
> Our question is: Do we say something to her? Do we suggest ways she can
> better improve her stitching technique? Do we suggest classes? Or do we
> keep our mouths shut?
I can say that if you say anything to her you WILL lose her business. You
would have become those snotty superior women in needlework shops who have
forgotten that they are not there to make the customers feel bad. (You
remember those discussions we had about evil needlework shop workers,
right?) She is paying HER money to frame HER needlework to HER taste. You
don't have to look at it, so what are you bitching about?
If she is an excellent customer, why don't you tell her the next time she
comes in, "We're having a class in X technique next month. Here's the
model of the class project. Would you be interested?" And just be sure
it's something different...a beginning XS class would blow your cover. And
just in case she _asks_ for your help...you will be gracious and say, "Oh,
my goodness, you should have seen _my_ first pieces!"
Sorry if I've overreacted; I've been working at Ginger's for a year and a
half now, and I have been _thoroughly_ trained in customer service by a
master. (I'd say mistress but that wouldn't sound right at all, at
all....) And remember, if even one customer hears you badmouthing another
one, or saying, "What icky work! Why is she bothering to frame it?" your
reputation for good service is gone.
AustinAnne
--
Machine shared by Anne Gwin (agwin*AT*mail.utexas.edu) and Nyarlathotep (nyarlathotep*AT*mail.utexas.edu). Sometimes we forget to change the name on the post.
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Vicki C.
Blaine & Mary Sauve-Miller wrote:
> I feel that the womans who piece is "awful" and "not deserving of the
> expensive frame" is like we all were at one time! I don't think that
> all of us were born stitchers and that we had to develop that skill over
> the years! I think it's great that that woman worked hard to stitch the
> piece, that she learned while she stitched it and most of all that she
> FINISHED IT! Some of my early work, I wouldn't consider framing today,
> but at the time I was proud of it! Right now, I have more UFO's than I
> have finished pieces in my house! I'm not saying that I would settle
> for less just to have my piece framed, just that it's important to
> finish them! I learn each time I pick up something! I've learned so
> much from all the ladies here and I know that I don't even know half of
> all that I want to know when I die! Mary
Hi all,
I think Mary said this very well. We are all in different stages of
learning. Looking back at my own mistakes I am still proud of the work I
do and have done. I am my own critic. I know Ann who wrote the original
post in this thread was just looking for a way to help the lady who
brought in her pieces. Ann there is no way to tell her that these pieces
are not showcase and besides she probally knows that. But! Its her work
and she feels proud of her accomplishments which in turn leds her to
improve her work on her own. I recieved a gift last year at Chirstmas
from my DBF's sister. She was x-stitching on plastic canvas at the time.
I love this woman dearly she is the sweetest person and has been through
alot in her life. It was framed and was a dreamcatcher. It was back
stitched and not in line at all. But I knew she was happy with it. She
took up plastic canvas on her own, she has cataracs <sorry spelling> in
both eyes and has hearing aids in both ears and is diabetic. So I knew
that she wasn't seeing what I saw. But she made it for me and because
she took the time to make it for me I loved it anyway. So I guess the
point is she tried. You can't fault someone for trying. Sorry this is so
long. I hope the point I was trying to make is clear. Just know this not
everyone is on the same level of stitching prowess.
Vicki C. <who hasn't had enough caffine yet>
Tzarna
I'd go with everyone here: not a word. Unless it's to politely and
non-judgementally let her know about a class that "she might be
interested in so she can share her love of stitching with others and
be with other stitchers."
I look back at my first pieces and they stink. But they were
something I worked hard at and learned from and even though i'd never
display them, I am proud of them. They helped me get to the point
where I'm not afraid of trying hardanger, specialty threads,
metallics, and some specialty stitches. someone else said that they
learn something new each time they stitch--I think this is true,
Ellen
Do you have a piece framed and hanging in a prominent spot with a list of
classes right beside it???? This should suffice! Obviously the lady is
proud enough of her work to have it framed in some lovely hand made frames.
Perhaps she believes what we keep preaching .... stitching should be fun
and enjoyable. Don't deaden her joy.
--
Ellen
Elliot Lake, Ontario
A Jewel In The Wilderness
Annie...@aol.com wrote in article <8747698...@dejanews.com>...
> Hello fellow stitchers!
>
> I am a constant reader here but this is my first post. I work at our
> local needlework shop and we had a situation arise the other day. I'd
> like your advice on how we can best handle it.
>
> A customer came in with three pieces of finished needlework she wanted
> puff-mounted and framed in some lovely handpainted wooden frames. The
> total cost of the framing job is a tad bit over $100. Not a small fee.
> The problem is her needlework is........less than good. It's fairly
> awful to be honest with you. She did not ask for our opinion on her
> needlework but when someone is spending THAT kind of money, you'd think
> they are proud of their accomplishments.
>
> Our question is: Do we say something to her? Do we suggest ways she can
> better improve her stitching technique? Do we suggest classes? Or do we
> keep our mouths shut?
>
> Please help us. This woman is a regular customer and we really
> appreciate her business. We don't want to offend her but we do want to
> help. Thanks in advance for your consideration and responses.
>
Xstching
>>The problem is her needlework is........less than good. It's fairly
>awful to be honest with you. She did not ask for our opinion on her needlework
>
can better improve her stitching technique? Do we suggest classes? Or do
we keep our mouths shut?
>>
>>
stitch shop that does custom needlework framing and have seen LOTS of
needlework in all kinds of different conditions come in.....even those done
by "auto-workers while they're on the line" that look like a car has been
driven over i for the past few years! :) Unless you are "specifically
asked" for improvement tips, don't offer any! That stitcher is proud of
her accomplishment and will take offense!
I have a stitcher that only does L&L angels on 18ct Aida, cut exactly to
the frame opening (you can see the salvage edges on some of the projects!)
and only frames them on sticky board(some are quite bubbled) and puts them
all into the same style frame purchased at odd-lot sales. She does her own
framing and is IMMESNSLY proud of her work! I learned very very quickly
that if I said ONE WORD to her (she's never ever asked for critique from
me) that I would never see her in my shop again. At least once a year she
brings in about 8 of her pictures for me to display in the shop for a month.
My employees have been trained not to say a word about how they look, only
to say (when asked) that we did not frame them. Despite their look, they
sell lots of charts for us and she tells everyone she knows that her work
is on display (which has brought in quite a bit of additional business to
our shop as well).
I wish they did look better framed, but..............!
And someone else said about asking to be a model stitcher for a
shop...........that's always a hard one for me too. I ask to see a couple
of examples (unframed) and ALWAYS (not yelling here, but stressing!) offer
complimentary comments with my critiques!! That way I feel I'm not
"ripping" into her. ButI do try to offset comments about "clumps of
knotted floss" on the back or too-too tight tension on the front that will
hinder the framing process. I want a stitcher to learn from my critique
while feeling good about what she's doing too.
Deb
LSPARROW
Annie...@aol.com wrote:
>
> I understand it's considered bad form to reply to your own comments but I
> feel I must. Please understand I wasn't being nasty about this
> customer's work. It's true there could be circumstances we aren't aware
> of. But she's such a nice lady and we only wanted to help. I did say
> that we don't wish to lose her as a customer or a friend. We are all
> stitchers here - surely you must understand the desire to help others.
> Haven't any of you ever tried to help a friend do something "better" or
> perhaps more efficiently? That's all I meant. I never meant to imply
> she shouldn't be proud of her work. You should have pride in everything
> you do - not just cross-stitch. Sometimes wanting to help isn't all it's
> cracked up to be.
>
> kind and otherwise.
>
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
for one am sorry
Must be the weather - this group is usually pretty amiable (sp) I
agree, If I were you and got the kind of answers you got I would go back
to lurking too.
Lois
LSPARROW
> i am well aware of the fact that people like you, might and would find
> fault with what i do.
>
> she didnt ask your opinion, she asked for some stuff to be framed.
>
> betsey
Fellow stitchers.
I think that there was rush to judgement here. Seems to me that
"Annie" was honestly concerned. Certainly, she could have been advised
in a more loving manner than some have done.
Her intent sems to be first rate and she should be given some credit for
that, at least it seems so to me.
Lois
Annie
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Not to muddy anymore waters or cause ill feelings, but I want you all to
know that this is not me! I'm not a professional, I just play one at home.
I know we have a lot of Ann/Anne/Annas. Thought I'd be OK with just
Annie. Hey! That's what I am--just Annie. No numbers and not even on
AOL.
Hope everybody has a good day.
Annie--now sympathizing with Bryn/Brynn.
Annie...@aol.com wrote in article <8748110...@dejanews.com>...
| I understand it's considered bad form to reply to your own comments but I
| feel I must. Please understand I wasn't being nasty about this
| customer's work. It's true there could be circumstances we aren't aware
| of. But she's such a nice lady and we only wanted to help. I did say
| that we don't wish to lose her as a customer or a friend. We are all
| stitchers here - surely you must understand the desire to help others.
| Haven't any of you ever tried to help a friend do something "better" or
| perhaps more efficiently? That's all I meant. I never meant to imply
| she shouldn't be proud of her work. You should have pride in everything
| you do - not just cross-stitch. Sometimes wanting to help isn't all it's
| cracked up to be.
|
| Now I think I'll back into lurking. Thank you all for your responses,
| kind and otherwise.
|
| -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
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<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#B8B8B8"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Tahoma">Not to muddy anymore waters or cause =
ill feelings, but I want you all to know that this is not me! I'm =
not a professional, I just play one at home. I know we have a lot =
of Ann/Anne/Annas. Thought I'd be OK with just Annie. Hey! =
That's what I am--just Annie. No numbers and not even on =
AOL.<br><br>Hope everybody has a good day. <br><br>Annie--now =
sympathizing with Bryn/Brynn.<br><br><br><br><font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>Annie...@aol.com</u><font color=3D"#000000"> =
wrote in article <<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>8748110...@dejanews.com</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">>...<br>| I understand it's considered bad form to =
reply to your own comments but I<br>| feel I must. Please =
understand I wasn't being nasty about this<br>| customer's work. =
It's true there could be circumstances we aren't aware<br>| of. =
But she's such a nice lady and we only wanted to help. I did =
say<br>| that we don't wish to lose her as a customer or a friend. =
We are all<br>| stitchers here - surely you must understand the =
desire to help others. <br>| Haven't any of you ever tried to help a =
friend do something "better" or<br>| perhaps more efficiently? =
That's all I meant.	I never meant to imply<br>| she shouldn't =
be proud of her work. You should have pride in everything<br>| you =
do - not just cross-stitch. Sometimes wanting to help isn't all =
it's<br>| cracked up to be.<br>| <br>| Now I think I'll back into =
lurking. Thank you all for your responses,<br>| kind and =
otherwise.<br>| <br>| -------------------=3D=3D=3D=3D Posted via Deja =
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Martha Beth Lewis
In <8747698...@dejanews.com> Annie...@aol.com writes:
>
>Hello fellow stitchers!
>
>I am a constant reader here but this is my first post.
And welcome to you!
I work at our
>local needlework shop and we had a situation arise the other day. ...
>A customer came in with three pieces of finished needlework she wanted
>puff-mounted and framed in some lovely handpainted wooden frames. The
>total cost of the framing job is a tad bit over $100. ...
>The problem is her needlework is........less than good. It's fairly
>awful to be honest with you. She did not ask for our opinion on her
>needlework but when someone is spending THAT kind of money, you'd
think >they are proud of their accomplishments....
>
>Our question is: Do we say something to her? Do we suggest ways she
can better improve her stitching technique? Do we suggest classes? Or
do we keep our mouths shut?
I think you did just right. If she asks for improvement, help
her with what she specifically asked for help about. Don't
overall critique it. Don't suggest classes.
Remember, maybe that is the best she can do. Perhaps her
eyesight is bad or she has some other difficulty that keeps her
from producing better work.
My first pieces were pretty rotten, I remember. And even now I
produce stitches that aren't entirely to my liking, so there's
always room for improvement, and doubtless this lady will
improve, too.
Martha beth
Sherri L Wilcauskas
Actually, since I was quite polite in my response (the strongest thing
I said was that part of Annie's original post "troubled" me), and since
I was *far* from the only polite respondent, I'm rather offended by
the attitude you exhibit here. In fact, you're being as unfair to
this polite majority of respondents as you claim we respondents have been
to Annie. (was that clear, or did my syntax break down on me?)
I stand by my original response. Someone criticizing the quality of
your stitching is hard to take even when it is solicited (raise your hand
if you remember tense faces of people about to go to their SOXS
scheduled critique....), simply because we all feel so very personally
about our stitching. When criticism is unsolicited, it's exponentially
harder to bear. So, I don't think Annie should offer unsolicited
critiques.
It's as simple as that, and notice that I'm not being rude, I'm
not being judgmental, I'm not being any of those nasty "bad rap"
kind of things you've painted across this thread with such a wide
brush...
Sherri
LSPARROW (keyp...@usga.org) wrote:
: Sorry my first post was late I think you got a bad rap on this one and I
Allstlpurr
In article <19970921151...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
xstc...@aol.com (Xstching) writes:
>I have a stitcher that only does L&L angels on 18ct Aida, cut exactly to
>the
I am one of those terrible people that only stitches on Aida. The problem
is that even with my Dazor Lamp I just CAN'T see the threads on linen. I
plan to do many of MLI's charts. I have started "Santa of the Forest" and
plan to use a sharp crewel or embroidery needle for the 1/4 stitches. I am
sure that it will be as nice as using linen, and probably will turn out
better as I will be able to see what I am stitching on.
I have tried several different evenweaves, and I just can't see the
threads. I plan to use either 20 or 22 ct. Aida for my next MLI and am sure
that it will be "worth" framing.
I have learned how to frame without the sticky board and find that it does
look alot better, and really isn't that hard to do if you take your time.
Perhaps the lady in question hasn't learned all of the ins and outs of xs,
but the most important part of stitching is that it should be fun, and
enjoyable. I remember when I was a child, my Mother tried to teach me to
knit, and I just hated it. She is the type of knitter that rips out what
she has done if it is not perfect, and insisted that I do the same.
Needless to say, I made many errors and spent more time ripping that
knitting. I never did learn to knit until I was in my 40's and by then I
had more control of my hands and hopefully brain. I still don't knit often.
As far as crossstitching is concerned, I learned by trial and error, and
even though I will never be an expert stitcher, I love to do it, and I
think that is what counts.
Sir Carol of the Floss
Nan
Annie,
Please, not one word of judgment. What is a pleasant and well-meant
offer of help to you could easily and even probably be taken as
devastating, hurtful criticism. Even praising a customer's work can be
tricky and a mistake, oddly enough. Let pleasure in her work show on
your face or comment on the lovely colors, or at most say "How
lovely." That's plenty. Expressing opinions of any sort, to the
customer or to *anyone else,* is not desired, or required, or good
business.
I have had librarians give me their unsought opinions on the books
I've chosen to check out. Clerks have told me what they thought of the
clothes I'm buying. Cashiers have expressed their distaste for the
food they're ringing up for me. I guess they think they're making
conversation but I've been displeased, to say the least.
If a customer wants your advice he or she will ask for it, but most of
the time that's not what is wanted even then; he or she is almost
always asking you to admire the work. The last thing the person really
wants is criticism, whether it's constructive or not.
If I brought stitching to be framed and got even a hint from the
person on the other side of the counter that my work wasn't up to
someone else's standard I'd cancel the order, retrieve my work and
never darken that door again for any purpose whatsoever.
It doesn't cost anything to be kind, but it so seldom happens that
customers love it when they are treated with kindness.
Nan
Annie...@aol.com wrote:
>
> Hello fellow stitchers!
>
> I am a constant reader here but this is my first post. I work at our
> local needlework shop and we had a situation arise the other day. I'd
> like your advice on how we can best handle it.
>
> A customer came in with three pieces of finished needlework she wanted
> puff-mounted and framed in some lovely handpainted wooden frames. The
> total cost of the framing job is a tad bit over $100. Not a small fee.
> The problem is her needlework is........less than good. It's fairly
> awful to be honest with you. She did not ask for our opinion on her
> needlework but when someone is spending THAT kind of money, you'd think
> they are proud of their accomplishments.
>
> Our question is: Do we say something to her? Do we suggest ways she can
> better improve her stitching technique? Do we suggest classes? Or do we
> keep our mouths shut?
>
> Please help us. This woman is a regular customer and we really
> appreciate her business. We don't want to offend her but we do want to
> help. Thanks in advance for your consideration and responses.
>
Anne Gwin
> Must be the weather - this group is usually pretty amiable (sp) I
> agree, If I were you and got the kind of answers you got I would go back
> to lurking too.
I don't see what the problem is! She asked for our opinions, we gave them.
And we weren't all that forceful about it, either. (Well, maybe I
was...sorry...) But even I apologized if I came on too strong! She
obviously didn't hear what she wanted to.
Karen Thompson
On 21 Sep 1997 03:05:03 GMT, agwin.the....@mail.utexas.edu
(Anne Gwin) wrote:
>In article <8747698...@dejanews.com>, Annie...@aol.com wrote:
>
>> A customer came in with three pieces of finished needlework she wanted
>> puff-mounted and framed in some lovely handpainted wooden frames. The
>> total cost of the framing job is a tad bit over $100. Not a small fee.
>> The problem is her needlework is........less than good. It's fairly
>> awful to be honest with you. She did not ask for our opinion on her
>> needlework
>
>And there's your answer. YOUR job is to shut up and frame it. HER job is
>to pay your salary.
>
>but when someone is spending THAT kind of money, you'd think
>> they are proud of their accomplishments.
>>
>
>So what's 3 finished pieces? Chopped liver? If she weren't proud of it she
>wouldn't be framing them. (And by the way, $100 for 3 pieces is chump
>change. I saw a framing order for a TW once that cost $300.)
>
>> Our question is: Do we say something to her? Do we suggest ways she can
>> better improve her stitching technique? Do we suggest classes? Or do we
>> keep our mouths shut?
>
>I can say that if you say anything to her you WILL lose her business. You
>would have become those snotty superior women in needlework shops who have
>forgotten that they are not there to make the customers feel bad. (You
>remember those discussions we had about evil needlework shop workers,
>right?) She is paying HER money to frame HER needlework to HER taste. You
>don't have to look at it, so what are you bitching about?
Wow! I don't think the original poster was "bitching" about it. I
took it to mean she was looking for a tactful way to help the customer
improve her stitching. Other people have posted about unkind comments
made about their own stitching, but I don't think the person who
inquired intended to criticize the woman. I completely agree that
nothing should be said about the stitching itself, only possible
comments about classes being held, which hopefully you would mention
to all customers anyway.
Karen
Allstlpurr
>Hello fellow stitchers!
>
>I am a constant reader here but this is my first post. I work at our
>local needlework shop and we had a situation arise the other day. I'd
>like your advice on how we can best handle it.
>
>A customer came in with three pieces of finished needlework she wanted
>puff-mounted and framed in some lovely handpainted wooden frames. The
>total cost of the framing job is a tad bit over $100. Not a small fee.
>The problem is her needlework is........less than good. It's fairly
>awful to be honest with you. She did not ask for our opinion on her
>needlework but when someone is spending THAT kind of money, you'd think
>they are proud of their accomplishments.
>
>Our question is: Do we say something to her? Do we suggest ways she can
>better improve her stitching technique? Do we suggest classes? Or do we
>keep our mouths shut?
>
>Please help us. This woman is a regular customer and we really
>appreciate her business. We don't want to offend her but we do want to
>help. Thanks in advance for your consideration and responses.
>
>
I don't have an opinion as to how to respond to this other than to say
that different people have different ideas.
For many years (before I knew better) I would use half the number of
threads called for and then double and knot them when starting a new
thread. I went to my local store and the owner gently corrected me,
explaining about the nap of the thread etc. For many years I carefully used
the "correct" way of stitching, ie, trying to stitch with the running the
thread under the first few stitches. Imagine my horror when I took a class
from another stitcher/designer and was taught the loop method of stitching.
I mean what gives here. Does the nap no longer matter? Of course not.
Different strokes for different folks. What makes one persons way of doing
thing work, is not the same as someone elses.
I have learned so much from this ng. and also from SOX, but even there
different TECHNIQUES are disputed.
Your customer may not do things YOUR way, but at least she is doing it
someway, and could/will learn more as she goes on.
Tzarna
Hi:
I know that the original poster asked for advice. I also know how I
would feel if someone offered what was intended to be helpful
criticism without offsetting it with something like: "This is nice,
and I like that; would you be interested in a technique to make the
piece (fill in the blank)." As it stands now, I make mistakes, and
still get a lot of complimemts from the stitchery store I go to. They
always, though, offer some new technique and invite me to take a class
or ask for help, and that makes all the difference in the world. I'm
not perfect, but i'm very good and I love it, which is why I stitch.
I think that the key is to offer her the same options you would offer
all your clients in such a way as to be inviting and provide her with
the ability to be comfortable saying yes or no. I posted earlier and
I still like the response "Well, we have a class you might be
interested in since it goes along so well with what you are doing now.
It will give you a chance to learn a new technique, meet other
stitchers, etc." That's how I learned hardanger and some more
advanced stitches and I never felt pushed or criticized.
I'm sorry if you feel that some of us have been harsh. I was, that
was not my intention.
Suzanne
Mary, You have a shop here with people who have no tact! Oy!!!! Just
ignore them, dear, there are always people out there who have no idea how
they sound. Good luck to you, and congratulations on being chosen to be a
model stitcher, for which design house, btw?
--
Suzanne
XXXXXXX
Love is all you need.
> I went into a stitch shop to have a piece that I had finished framed, I
> asked them about my stitching as I wanted to become a model stitcher for
> a prestigious designer! They totally ripped my piece apart and told me
> that I would never make it! Than they proceeded to use the most
> expensive materials to frame my piece! I ended up going home and cried
> for a while! I totally ripped myself apart than pulled myself back up
> and said what the heck I'm sending this piece in and will try to become
> a model stitcher any ways, the worse that can happen is they will say
> thanks but no thanks! I sent my piece in and within 2 weeks knew that I
> had been selected as a model stitcher! : )
>
> I have decided that I will no longer go to this shop for my framing
> needs, unfortunately I still need them for many of my supplies! But,
> when I took my latest piece in to be framed I had wanted teal matting
> and she told it it would look awful and wouldn't even show me what it
> would look like! I settled for less than what I wanted and am kicking
> myself for not being more assertive, but I have signed up for one of
> their long term classes and didn't want that tension between us and I
> had already paid in full for the class!
>
> Incidentally, I went into this same shop some weeks ago asking for help
> with a stitch in Emie Bishops Walk the Gentle Path, and they had no
> clue! I eventually figured them out myself and taught them it! Hmmm,
> and I'm taking classes from them? I think it's time for me to move to
> some organization that is more supportive and helpful! I personally
> feel that they say what they say to actually get more money! In taking
> classes ect...! But, I do know one thing, I no longer want to be a
> victim to them! I always get compliments for my personal taste in
> combining things and colors together, so I seriously doubt that my taste
> in matting would be that awful! Besides I'm the one who is hanging it
> my house!
>
Xstching
>>I have a stitcher that only does L&L angels on 18ct Aida,
>
Oh no!! Don't apologize for your choice in stitching materials!!! I'm not
sure WHY I even mentioned the "aida" in that thread when it was the "way"
she framed her pieces that was the problem!
This stitcher does the most beautiful work! Her backs are excellent! She
just takes so much pride in her stitchery that I wish there was someway we
could show her HOW to show it off (framed properly) to the best it could be!!
I even have friends who only stitch on Aida <VBG> and we get along
beautifully!!!!! hee hee
I fully agree with you, oh Sir Carol of the Floss (Love that handle!!!) -
sttiching should be fun and you should enjoy every second of it (well, not
those moments frogging of course!) - or what is the point of it! Linen
and Aida stitchers unite! :)
Deb
Ruth Ann Alexandar
Annie...@aol.com wrote:
>
> Hello fellow stitchers!
>
> I am a constant reader here but this is my first post. I work at our
> local needlework shop and we had a situation arise the other day. I'd
> like your advice on how we can best handle it.
>
> A customer came in with three pieces of finished needlework she wanted
> puff-mounted and framed in some lovely handpainted wooden frames. The
> total cost of the framing job is a tad bit over $100. Not a small fee.
> The problem is her needlework is........less than good. It's fairly
> awful to be honest with you. She did not ask for our opinion on her
> needlework but when someone is spending THAT kind of money, you'd think
> they are proud of their accomplishments.
>
> Our question is: Do we say something to her? Do we suggest ways she can
> better improve her stitching technique? Do we suggest classes? Or do we
> keep our mouths shut?
>
> Please help us. This woman is a regular customer and we really
> appreciate her business. We don't want to offend her but we do want to
> help. Thanks in advance for your consideration and responses.
>
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
finished the piece, I wanted it framed. After all the eye rolling and
comments made at the shop I took it to, I almost gave up stitching.
Instead, i took it to a shop where they didn't care.
RA
Vicki C.
Ruth Ann Alexandar wrote:
> My first piece was terrible, but I was so proud that I taught myself and
> finished the piece, I wanted it framed. After all the eye rolling and
> comments made at the shop I took it to, I almost gave up stitching.
> Instead, i took it to a shop where they didn't care.
>
> RA
Ruth Ann I really think you hit the nail on the head when it comes down
to the point of the matter. Even in our most non threatening way of
helpful hints we may give offense to someone and cause them to stop
doing what they enjoy. It does happen. I think that everyone here is
trying to offer a piece of advice none of the posts I have read have
been really harsh. In our zest to try and prevent another from hurt
perhaps we have hurt your feelings Annie? <hope thats right> I don't
speak for this group but I'm sure that all of us know how it feels to
see something and want to say something, but have bitten our tongues.
Unless she asks for anyones opinion don't offer. Somethings are better
left unsaid. You know this could be a letter to Dear Abby or Ann
Landers. ;)
It reminds me of a art teacher i had in HS he assigned us to do self
portraits, I explained to him I could draw anything he wanted except
people they came out in cartoon form. He insisted, I sat down to do the
portrait well it was a horrible drawing. He gave me a F. I put down my
charcol and didn't draw for 15yrs. It made me feel so badly. So you see
we do influence others around us. Sometimes for good sometimes for bad.
just my .02cents.
Annie you'll do the right thing I'm sure.
Vicki C.
Gwen
Vicki C. wrote:
> It reminds me of a art teacher i had in HS he assigned us to do self
> portraits, I explained to him I could draw anything he wanted except
> people they came out in cartoon form. He insisted, I sat down to do the
> portrait well it was a horrible drawing. He gave me a F. I put down my
> charcol and didn't draw for 15yrs. It made me feel so badly. So you see
> we do influence others around us. Sometimes for good sometimes for bad.
> just my .02cents.
> Annie you'll do the right thing I'm sure.
> Vicki C.
Vicki!
This so reminds me of my 10th grade teacher! I had just switched
schools, (public to private) and we had to write and essay. The teacher
ripped mine up and threw it away!! She said that it wasn't a "5
paragraph essay" and that it was trash! (She was also the PE teacher,
what did she know!)
I didn't really write again until my first year at college. Imagine my
surprise, when my prof. pushed me into writing for the school paper!
She also allowed me to include a couple of my pieces in her work when
she published.
It was a horrible experience, but I figure, what comes around, goes
around;) She is still a PE teacher and I am a published writer! (not to
say that PE teachers aren't important)
Gwen
Suzanne
Dear Annie,
PLEASE do not be frightened back into lurking! We are all different
people, with our opinions, and your note was a teensy bit controversial.
People may not have thought about the actual situation (I personally would
have said nothing) but may have felt the urge to respond strongly in a PC
sorta way. I have felt the licks of flames, too. Just ignore the
hesitancy you feel, know that we all are not always going to agree. Please
don't leave the discussion because of a few licks of flame, hang in there,
lady! We need many divergent points of view, yours too. We appreciate
all the input and friends. Stay delurked!!! Be strong!!!
--
Suzanne
XXXXXXX
Love is all you need.
Annie...@aol.com wrote in article <8748110...@dejanews.com>...
> I understand it's considered bad form to reply to your own comments but I
> feel I must. Please understand I wasn't being nasty about this
> customer's work. It's true there could be circumstances we aren't aware
> of. But she's such a nice lady and we only wanted to help. I did say
> that we don't wish to lose her as a customer or a friend. We are all
> stitchers here - surely you must understand the desire to help others.
> Haven't any of you ever tried to help a friend do something "better" or
> perhaps more efficiently? That's all I meant. I never meant to imply
> she shouldn't be proud of her work. You should have pride in everything
> you do - not just cross-stitch. Sometimes wanting to help isn't all it's
> cracked up to be.
>
> Now I think I'll back into lurking. Thank you all for your responses,
> kind and otherwise.
>
Laura
My 2 cents is this. I've been doing a "only mom/dad" would be happy with
my stitching type. Meaning I have so much room for improvement. I stitch
because I love to stitch. I love the quiet, repetitiousness of it. The
pretty colors. The slow picture that eventually comes out, only after
spending hours on a section. I love it. I'm aware my technique (to put it
bluntly) sucks. I know there are vast areas for improvement. I think the
only way I personally would not be hurt is if once I finished paying for
the framing was told "were you aware there were classes available? You
could meet people that are interested in cross-stitching, learn new
techniques....". (Just like someone else had suggested.) Otherwise I
would be crushed, and would not pick up and finish my current or future
projects. What can I say? I'm sensitive. If someone came up and said
your stitching isn't up to par, I would hang it up. I know that no-where
in any of the postings anything like that was said, just saying that. For
me, wait until I leave, then roll your eyes and remark how bad my stitching
is. I'll never know, so I'll continue to stitch, blissfully ignorant!
Laura, Skor
LSPARROW <keyp...@usga.org> wrote in article <34253D...@usga.org>...
ChickaPooh
>>>>You have a shop here with people who have no tact! Oy!!!!<<<<<
Guys....come on now! =( In defense of the original poster (postee?)...
her store DID NOT say anything to the customer.
I think hers was a fair question. Many of us have someone that we know
that really stitches poorly. It is a natural instinct to want to find a
delicate and tactful way to help them learn. That is not horrible, nor is
it a belief that the other person does not have pride in their work. We
KNOW that the poor stitcher puts a great deal of time and effort into their
work, and is very proud, and so are we!
As a friend, I would want to step in and say something, but would make
sure that it wasnt critical of the work that they have done. As a store,
you may just want to invite the customer to classes, or to stitching nights
with fellow stitchers. This way maybe the customer could just observe
other people who stitch "properly". (is a subjective term) They could see
the way other people start their rows....and could see that all top
stitches go in the same direction... and the way to end a strand of
floss...etc.....
Sorry so long...but geesh, the original poster meant no harm!
Wendy
Lynn
Years ago I found a roll of undeveloped film. I can't remember now, but it
was in a suitcase, or the bottom of the closet, or maybe even a storage
area. I took it in to be developed, and all the photos came back with that
washed out "antique-y" look to them.
Anyway, the drug store put a "tips to better photos" in the envelope. I
was really offended. I was a pretty fair photographer (strictly amature)
at the time, and had this film not sat around for 10 years, it would have
been ok.
That's why I suggested not giving unwanted advice. I'm not a very
sensitive person, and to get miffed because a national chain store didn't
think my photos were perfect - well, criticism rarely comes off as
constructive. Besides, I've seen some "great" art I wouldn't want on my
walls.
Lynn
Sherri L Wilcauskas
ChickaPooh (chick...@aol.com) wrote:
: >>>>You have a shop here with people who have no tact! Oy!!!!<<<<<
: Guys....come on now! =( In defense of the original poster (postee?)...
: her store DID NOT say anything to the customer.
<snip>
: Sorry so long...but geesh, the original poster meant no harm!
: Wendy
True enough, but the above comment wasn't about the original poster's
store. Go back and reread the thread of posts and responses----that
sentence above was specifically and clearly in response to an anecdote
about a *different* store......
Sherri
Hrswoman
I have to agree with Sherri. I don't feel I was either rude or offensive.
If someone felt that way I guess it is just the difficulty of offering
advice in a written format. With no clues from facial expressions or tone
of voice it is easy to take something the wrong way.
I also stand by my response and I totally agree with Sherri.
There is so much bad in the best of us,
and so much good in the worst of us,
it ill behooves any of us,
to talk about the rest of us.
Jeff or Kelly Borden
I'm with Wendy! Annie meant no harm with her original post. We stitchers
like to think of ourselves as a helpful group - her concern was only an
extension of that, not a desire to alienate a good customer and fellow
stitcher. Many of us have had bad experiences in some of the places that
we've shopped. I think the emotional reaction to some of these experiences
came through in responses to someone who is basically innocent. Now the
poor girl can go back to work and never say anything to anyone again.
Kelly
ChickaPooh <chick...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19970922044...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
Suzanne
Here, here!!!!
--
Suzanne
XXXXXXX
Love is all you need.
LSPARROW <keyp...@usga.org> wrote in article <34253D...@usga.org>...
Suzanne
Well, one of us referred to her as 'bitchy'. That isn't very nice.
--
Suzanne
XXXXXXX
Love is all you need.
Anne Gwin <agwin.the....@mail.utexas.edu> wrote in article
<agwin.the.unspammab...@slip-108-2.ots.utexas.edu>...
Vicki C.
Ok Time out...everyone read the order of posts there was a asumption
made here and if you look at the order of posts you will see.
> in matting would be that awful! Besides I'm the one who is hanging it
> my house!
>
> I feel that the womans who piece is "awful" and "not deserving of the
> expensive frame" is like we all were at one time! I don't think that
> all of us were born stitchers and that we had to develop that skill over
> the years! I think it's great that that woman worked hard to stitch the
> piece, that she learned while she stitched it and most of all that she
> FINISHED IT! Some of my early work, I wouldn't consider framing today,
> but at the time I was proud of it! Right now, I have more UFO's than I
> have finished pieces in my house! I'm not saying that I would settle
> for less just to have my piece framed, just that it's important to
> finish them! I learn each time I pick up something! I've learned so
> much from all the ladies here and I know that I don't even know half of
> all that I want to know when I die! Mary
And suzanne wrote back to mary
Mary, You have a shop here with people who have no tact! Oy!!!! Just
ignore them, dear, there are always people out there who have no idea
how
they sound. Good luck to you, and congratulations on being chosen to be
a
model stitcher, for which design house, btw?
--
Suzanne
XXXXXXX
Love is all you need.
And this is where the mistake was made by Wendy who thought Suzanne was
replying to Annie. Wendy this is just to illstrate that we need to start
quoteing those we are speaking to. No one was that harsh with Annie.
Really if you had read the thread from the beginning you would see that.
No offense meant but this is how nasty things get started. See post
quoted post below
>>>>You have a shop here with people who have no tact! Oy!!!!<<<<<
Guys....come on now! =( In defense of the original poster (postee?)...
her store DID NOT say anything to the customer.
I think hers was a fair question. Many of us have someone that we know
that really stitches poorly. It is a natural instinct to want to find a
delicate and tactful way to help them learn. That is not horrible, nor
is
it a belief that the other person does not have pride in their work. We
KNOW that the poor stitcher puts a great deal of time and effort into
their
work, and is very proud, and so are we!
As a friend, I would want to step in and say something, but would make
sure that it wasnt critical of the work that they have done. As a
store,
you may just want to invite the customer to classes, or to stitching
nights
with fellow stitchers. This way maybe the customer could just observe
other people who stitch "properly". (is a subjective term) They could
see
the way other people start their rows....and could see that all top
stitches go in the same direction... and the way to end a strand of
floss...etc.....
Sorry so long...but geesh, the original poster meant no harm!
Wendy
Naunet
Yes, I came into this late. Have not yet even seent he message where
she got upset. But I will say, below, good idea. Doesn't even mention
the piece in question, but gives a chance to learn as well as make new
friends.
>I think that the key is to offer her the same options you would offer
>all your clients in such a way as to be inviting and provide her with
>the ability to be comfortable saying yes or no. I posted earlier and
>I still like the response "Well, we have a class you might be
>interested in since it goes along so well with what you are doing now.
>It will give you a chance to learn a new technique, meet other
>stitchers, etc." That's how I learned hardanger and some more
>advanced stitches and I never felt pushed or criticized.
>
>I'm sorry if you feel that some of us have been harsh. I was, that
>was not my intention.
Shelah Dinwiddie
aka Naunet - prin...@scorpio.dmv.com
@}--,--'--
"Sweet Melissa, I often pray for you. I hope your suffering was brief.
I hope the angels who watch over all little children came for you and
took you someplace beautiful and sweet. Suffer the little children."
--Pat Benatar "Suffer the Little Children/Hell is For Children"
Suzanne
I agree, we don't have to be mean to her, she simply asked for advice on a
point of tact. Sheesh!!!
--
Suzanne
XXXXXXX
Love is all you need.
Karen Thompson <drm...@accessatlanta.com> wrote in article
<34256df9...@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>...
> On 21 Sep 1997 03:05:03 GMT, agwin.the....@mail.utexas.edu
> (Anne Gwin) wrote:
>
> >In article <8747698...@dejanews.com>, Annie...@aol.com wrote:
> >
> >> A customer came in with three pieces of finished needlework she wanted
> >> puff-mounted and framed in some lovely handpainted wooden frames. The
> >> total cost of the framing job is a tad bit over $100. Not a small
fee.
> >> The problem is her needlework is........less than good. It's fairly
> >> awful to be honest with you. She did not ask for our opinion on her
> >> needlework
> >
> >And there's your answer. YOUR job is to shut up and frame it. HER job is
> >to pay your salary.
> >
> >but when someone is spending THAT kind of money, you'd think
> >> they are proud of their accomplishments.
> >>
> >
> >So what's 3 finished pieces? Chopped liver? If she weren't proud of it
she
> >wouldn't be framing them. (And by the way, $100 for 3 pieces is chump
> >change. I saw a framing order for a TW once that cost $300.)
> >
> >> Our question is: Do we say something to her? Do we suggest ways she
can
> >> better improve her stitching technique? Do we suggest classes? Or do
we
> >> keep our mouths shut?
> >
Naunet
On Sun, 21 Sep 1997 20:16:57 -0700, Gwen <jcst...@earthlink.net>
wrote:
>Vicki C. wrote:
>
>> It reminds me of a art teacher i had in HS he assigned us to do self
>> portraits, I explained to him I could draw anything he wanted except
>> people they came out in cartoon form. He insisted, I sat down to do the
>> portrait well it was a horrible drawing. He gave me a F. I put down my
>> charcol and didn't draw for 15yrs. It made me feel so badly. So you see
Been there too.
>I didn't really write again until my first year at college. Imagine my
>surprise, when my prof. pushed me into writing for the school paper!
>She also allowed me to include a couple of my pieces in her work when
>she published.
For me I could see the praise for the other students and hardly
anything for what i worked on. I felt i just was not imaginative
enough, not good enough to use my art to get somewhere in the world.
Sometimes I still wonder. But I didn't try and almost didn't want to
draw that whole year in advanced art. I didn't get to try the new
things I wanted *like the airbrush* due to how the teacher chose who
would use them...I was never that good. One of the boys who did use
it even ruined it. But once I got out of highschool out of that
influence and with my hubby....things started to change. He helped
witht he work, told me what needed work in a gentle way, or said
nothing. Now i like designing...don't know if I am really any good at
it. I see the designs out and Know i can do that but still get the
self doubt *like about the design I am working on now* the usual who
would ever stitch that....and sometimes i really wish I had people to
ask to look at the image and tell me if they would stitch that, or
know someone who would, etc. Of course the waiting game in
publishing is never fun either, but I am used to it. Still waiting.
But it only takes one word or look to wreck someone's confidence.
Madeupagin
Boy, this brings back a few months ago when I was chatting with a designer
about another on-line stitcher. They had met. That stitcher was working
on one of the designer's designs (hehehe). It was NOT going well. What
should I say, she asked. We agreed: Not a darn thing. She's a delightful
lady, and would NEVER dream of hurting anyone. That stitcher was trying
linen for the first time, and even if the designer had said something, no
telling how the stitcher would have taken it. So, the designer said
nothing, (although, I'm sure, she was in AGONY at the way HER design was
being mutilated) the stitcher is still happily stitching.
Some designers are real class acts!
Tere
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thanks for Noticing Me ~~ Eeyore
Anne Gwin
In article <01bcc716$b3e3f400$b2d32299@default>, "Suzanne"
<Magnus_H...@msn.com> wrote:
> sorta way. I have felt the licks of flames, too. Just ignore the
In *this* newsgroup? No, in RCTN you've been disagreed with. _Quite_ a
different story!
AustinAnne
who'll be happy to flame somebody, if you want a demonstration...the
responses in this thread have *NOT* been flames!
Naunet
On 21 Sep 1997 20:02:35 GMT, allst...@aol.com (Allstlpurr) wrote:
>I am one of those terrible people that only stitches on Aida. The problem
>is that even with my Dazor Lamp I just CAN'T see the threads on linen. I
>plan to do many of MLI's charts. I have started "Santa of the Forest" and
>plan to use a sharp crewel or embroidery needle for the 1/4 stitches. I am
>sure that it will be as nice as using linen, and probably will turn out
>better as I will be able to see what I am stitching on.
>I have tried several different evenweaves, and I just can't see the
>threads. I plan to use either 20 or 22 ct. Aida for my next MLI and am sure
>that it will be "worth" framing.
Well, I am with you on this one. I like evenweave on occasion, but my
eyes cannot take it all the time. I am 22, what many call a youngin,
but I still like to work on aida by choice. I know for quarter
stitches on aida they are easier if you use a sharp needle to make the
hole in the center and stuff. Works for me. I know sometimes on
evenweave I mess up...the holes blend together and make me feel dizzy
to look at them. I may have to talk to you in email and see where i
can find some of that 20 and 22 ct aida. I can only find up to18 ct
here. You know, on evenweaves i can do over one fairly well, *28ct*
but over two is harder.
>I have learned how to frame without the sticky board and find that it does
>look alot better, and really isn't that hard to do if you take your time.
How do you frame? Curious so I can learn too:)
LSPARROW
Vicki C. wrote:
>
> Ruth Ann Alexandar wrote:
>
> > My first piece was terrible, but I was so proud that I taught myself and
> > finished the piece, I wanted it framed. After all the eye rolling and
> > comments made at the shop I took it to, I almost gave up stitching.
> > Instead, i took it to a shop where they didn't care.
> >
> > RA
> Ruth Ann I really think you hit the nail on the head when it comes down
> to the point of the matter. Even in our most non threatening way of
> helpful hints we may give offense to someone and cause them to stop
> doing what they enjoy. It does happen. I think that everyone here is
> trying to offer a piece of advice none of the posts I have read have
> been really harsh. In our zest to try and prevent another from hurt
> perhaps we have hurt your feelings Annie? <hope thats right> I don't
> speak for this group but I'm sure that all of us know how it feels to
> see something and want to say something, but have bitten our tongues.
> Unless she asks for anyones opinion don't offer. Somethings are better
> left unsaid. You know this could be a letter to Dear Abby or Ann
> Landers. ;)
> portraits, I explained to him I could draw anything he wanted except
> people they came out in cartoon form. He insisted, I sat down to do the
> portrait well it was a horrible drawing. He gave me a F. I put down my
> charcol and didn't draw for 15yrs. It made me feel so badly. So you see
> just my .02cents.
> Annie you'll do the right thing I'm sure.
> Vicki C.
supposed to do, just because you gave up doesn't mean it was his fault -
maybe it wasn't
Lois
LSPARROW
Anne Gwin wrote:
>
> In article <34253E...@usga.org>, keyp...@usga.org wrote:
>
> > Must be the weather - this group is usually pretty amiable (sp) I
> > agree, If I were you and got the kind of answers you got I would go back
> > to lurking too.
>
> I don't see what the problem is! She asked for our opinions, we gave them.
> And we weren't all that forceful about it, either. (Well, maybe I
> was...sorry...) But even I apologized if I came on too strong! She
> obviously didn't hear what she wanted to.
>
> AustinAnne
>
> Machine shared by Anne Gwin (agwin*AT*mail.utexas.edu) and Nyarlathotep (nyarlathotep*AT*mail.utexas.edu). Sometimes we forget to change the name on the post.
>
> "The little engine that could, did."--Rob Manning, Mars Pathfinder flight director, 7/4/97.
>
> <Discussing an image of a black rectangle silhouetted against the Martian landscape> "That is the top of the calibration target, that is _not_ in fact a monolith."--NASA TV commentator, 7/5/97
what said and responded emotionaly rather than considering her attempt
to find a solution that would assist her customer.
Lois
Lula
LSPARROW wrote:
>
> Vicki C. wrote:
> >
> > It reminds me of a art teacher i had in HS he assigned us to do self
> > portraits, I explained to him I could draw anything he wanted except
> > people they came out in cartoon form. He insisted, I sat down to do the
> > portrait well it was a horrible drawing. He gave me a F. I put down my
> > charcol and didn't draw for 15yrs. It made me feel so badly. So you see
> > we do influence others around us. Sometimes for good sometimes for bad.
> > Vicki C.
> Put he was trying to teadch you to draw portrait's, that's what he was
> supposed to do, just because you gave up doesn't mean it was his fault -
> maybe it wasn't
>
> Lois
If this teacher was trying to teach someone to draw a portrait by
reacting like that, then he was a very poor teacher indeed.
This person was not teaching, he was condemning.
He could have been less judgemental based on his own standards and be
more encouraging, work with and critique properly a student's
assignment.
Assigning someone an F just because it wasn't what he wanted didn't
teach Vickie anything.
I can understand Vickie's point of view very clearly because I've had my
share of art professor's who only have one view, their way and that was
that. That did not mean they were right and I was wrong or vice versa.
School is supposed to be a learning place, where information and
different points of view are shown and explained so we can learn. It's
to inform us not condemn us.
However, I was more fortunate in my art background to have a couple of
mentors in wonderful professors who gave me confidence in my abilities
to continue despite having a few professors of similar ilk as mentioned
above.
A teacher's word carries a great deal of influence to students and I
don't blame Vickie for her traumatic experience.
I assume you are now back to drawing after 15 years? Enjoy it!
---
Lula from Wooly Dreams Design
http://home.earthlink.net/~woolydream/
Naunet
I have to agree with others here. Don't mention a thing about it. For
me I'd never mind a "Oh how lovely" *said sincerely* but do you think
I'd remain a regular customer at a place that pointed out how bad my
work is? I worry enough over that as it is:) The woman could have
had a the stitching given as a gift, or just made it for love for
someone else and that someone else might not notice the things that
other stitchers might. We never know. The polite way in cases like
that goes back to what our mothers *or Thumper's mommy* :) told us,
"If you can't say anything nice, don't say nothin' at all."
Suzanne
Vicki, I agree. I am very old fashioned and I think if you can't say
something nice, don't say anything at all. People are not blind or
stupid, they know if their piece isn't perfect. I was shown a XS piece by
it's artist, in the hospital in 1989, she was 9 years old. There were
knots and loops on the front. I smiled and told her she had worked very
hard and it was beautiful. I also gave her one of my gold needles to
encourage her to stitch more. Practice makes perfect.
When I was 17 I took a beginner archery course at a community college. A
year later I was almost picked for the US Olympic Archery team. Practice,
practice, practice. (This is what I stress to my homeschooling children)
It is important not to squash anyone's enthusiasm. We must also be
careful not to squash Annie. Carry on, stitchers!
ps. a good art teacher should encourage, not discourage, and mine let us
give our own grades...(hi mr. newcomb!)
--
Suzanne
XXXXXXX
Love is all you need.
Vicki C. <"wild...@concentric.net"@pop3.concentric.net> wrote in article
<604fct$s...@examiner.concentric.net>...
> Ruth Ann Alexandar wrote:
>
> > My first piece was terrible, but I was so proud that I taught myself
and
> > finished the piece, I wanted it framed. After all the eye rolling and
> > comments made at the shop I took it to, I almost gave up stitching.
> > Instead, i took it to a shop where they didn't care.
> >
> > RA
> Ruth Ann I really think you hit the nail on the head when it comes down
> to the point of the matter. Even in our most non threatening way of
> helpful hints we may give offense to someone and cause them to stop
> doing what they enjoy. It does happen. I think that everyone here is
> trying to offer a piece of advice none of the posts I have read have
> been really harsh. In our zest to try and prevent another from hurt
> perhaps we have hurt your feelings Annie? <hope thats right> I don't
> speak for this group but I'm sure that all of us know how it feels to
> see something and want to say something, but have bitten our tongues.
> Unless she asks for anyones opinion don't offer. Somethings are better
> left unsaid. You know this could be a letter to Dear Abby or Ann
> Landers. ;)
> It reminds me of a art teacher i had in HS he assigned us to do self
> portraits, I explained to him I could draw anything he wanted except
> people they came out in cartoon form. He insisted, I sat down to do the
> portrait well it was a horrible drawing. He gave me a F. I put down my
> charcol and didn't draw for 15yrs. It made me feel so badly. So you see
> we do influence others around us. Sometimes for good sometimes for bad.
Anne Gwin
In article <603r7t$mjl$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
wilc...@dept.english.upenn.edu (Sherri L Wilcauskas) wrote:
> It's as simple as that, and notice that I'm not being rude, I'm
> not being judgmental, I'm not being any of those nasty "bad rap"
> kind of things you've painted across this thread with such a wide
> brush...
Oh good! The latest thing! Overdyed stitchers! (in shades of persimmon and
puce!)
Vicki C.
You will be happy to know I do draw on rare occasion. It seems you can't
ever forget something like that. I have the beautiful ocean across the
road and New England scenery to sketch.
FunnEGirl
In article <19970921171...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
allst...@aol.com (Allstlpurr) writes:
> For many years I carefully used
>the "correct" way of stitching, ie, trying to stitch with the running the
>thread under the first few stitches. Imagine my horror when I took a class
>from another stitcher/designer and was taught the loop method of stitching.
>I mean what gives here. Does the nap no longer matter? Of course not.
>Different strokes for different folks. What makes one persons way of doing
>thing work, is not the same as someone elses.
Sir Carol:
Don't you just love that book "Don't Sweat the Small Stuff...and It's All
Small Stuff"??????
Smiles,
Denise
FunnEGirl
In article <6010gi$h...@sjx-ixn7.ix.netcom.com>, Lynn <en...@ix.netcom.com>
writes:
>1. Keep your mouths shut.
>2. $100 is not a lot of money to me.
>3. Once it's framed, you'll never have to look at it again.
>4. How dare you criticize a customer.
>5. Your opinion is more valuable to you than to others.
>6. You might feel differently if you found out it was her disabled mother
>who completed it.
>7. One man's trash, another's treasure.
Wow! Well put!!!!!!!!!!!!! Maybe it represents a period of time in her
life where doing this piece was a real accomplishment! I guess the bottom
line question is: Will it matter a year from now, 5 years from now, 10
years from now...probably not to the shop but this customer may NEVER get
over an insensitive comment!
Denise in Akron
Vicki C.
LSPARROW wrote:
> Put he was trying to teadch you to draw portrait's, that's what he was
> supposed to do, just because you gave up doesn't mean it was his fault -
> maybe it wasn't
>
> Lois
Lois no that was not what he was suppose to do. Tell me this is there a
right and wrong way to draw a portrait? There is more to this story then
you realize. He gave me a F because he didn't want a female in his
class. Also this school I went to had been a all male school there were
only 75 females in the school of thousands at the time. So Lois, the F
was not all about art. But why would a teacher give a student a F after
the student went to the teacher and said look I can't do it. It was his
fault I gave up. He told me it was terrible, and Lois I can draw, I can
paint but the only thing I can't do is people. The whole point was the
influence of others on people. Did you miss it? Geez Lois leave it alone
already.
Vicki C.
Anne Gwin
In article <01bcc780$e120dd60$9ad72299@default>, "Suzanne"
<Magnus_H...@msn.com> wrote:
> Well, one of us referred to her as 'bitchy'. That isn't very nice.
Now, Suzanne, we both know you're talking about me. Except **YOU MISQUOTED
ME!** I said, "What are you bitching about?" That is *NOT* the same as
saying, "You are bitchy." Next time, please go back and make sure of your
facts; in a long thread like this, it's very easy to forget who said what,
to whom, and how warmly. ;-)
AustinAnne, feeling rather bitchy herself today.
And, you know, this response STILL isn't a flame. It is a semi-polite
correction.
Allstlpurr
In article <34272A...@earthlink.net>, Lula <wooly...@earthlink.net>
writes:
>
>If this teacher was trying to teach someone to draw a portrait by
>reacting like that, then he was a very poor teacher indeed.
>This person was not teaching, he was condemning.
>He could have been less judgemental based on his own standards and be
>more encouraging, work with and critique properly a student's
>assignment.
>Assigning someone an F just because it wasn't what he wanted didn't
>teach Vickie anything.
>
>I can understand Vickie's point of view very clearly because I've had my
>share of art professor's who only have one view, their way and that was
>that. That did not mean they were right and I was wrong or vice versa.
>School is supposed to be a learning place, where information and
>different points of view are shown and explained so we can learn. It's
>to inform us not condemn us.
>
>However, I was more fortunate in my art background to have a couple of
>mentors in wonderful professors who gave me confidence in my abilities
>to continue despite having a few professors of similar ilk as mentioned
>above.
>
>A teacher's word carries a great deal of influence to students and I
>don't blame Vickie for her traumatic experience.
I too had an art teacher that was lacking something. It might have been
brains;>).
She actually said that if no one saw it, whatever "it" was(sunrise,
sunset, trees in fall colors, wildflowers, etc>) was not beautiful.
Meaning, I suppose, that beauty has to be seen to be apprieciated. Somehow
that didn't make sense. I figure that something is beautiful even if no one
sees it. It is just that no one can apprieciate what is not
seen.Personally, I think this teacher lacked imagination. If I read a book
that describes "whatever" in my minds eye, I see the description and even
if it is something that has never been seen, such as a Dragon in Flight, I
can see it as beautiful, but someone that doesn't like Dragons might see it
as dumb. No one actually sees what is in their mind, but it is beautiful.
Just a thought,
Sir Carol of the Floss
Allstlpurr
In article <19970923121...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
funn...@aol.com (FunnEGirl) writes:
>Don't you just love that book "Don't Sweat the Small Stuff...and It's All
>Small Stuff"??????
Haven't read it. Sounds great.
I learned a long time ago the the small stuff goes away, and the big stuff
can be made smaller and then it too goes away.
I think that the "Serenity Prayer" says it all.
If I didn't have what my father called "duck feathers" (you know the kind
of feather that lets water run off it) I would have taken the long walk
off the short pier long ago.
I am "big boned" and short, so I have heard "fat" remarks all of my life.
I have a big nose and ears and have been called "Dumbo". I have alot of
knowledge about alot of things (passed the test for JEOPARDY, Haven't heard
anything yet, but I passed the test ;>) and have been called a know-it-all,
or smarta**. I am always interested in learning new things, and have to
thank all of you for teaching me new things all of the time.
You know what, I'm still going strong, and have a happy/loving family, and
my cats who don't think that I am anything other than what I am, and above
all I am happy and I am ME. Isn't that what we all strive for, happieness
in being ourself?????
Well I am not sure what started that tirade, but it is just my opinion or
something.......No flames please, I don't want any of the kitties charred.
Nan
Mary Sauve-Miller wrote:
>...when I took my latest piece in to be framed I had wanted teal matting
> and she told it it would look awful and wouldn't even show me what it
> would look like!
<snip>
I always get compliments for my personal taste in
> combining things and colors together, so I seriously doubt that my taste
> in matting would be that awful!
<snip>
Mary
Mary,
I'd bet anything that she told you your choice of matting would look
"awful," and refused to show it to you, and sold you a different
color, simply because *she didn't have the color you wanted* and
figured she could talk you into buying something she did have.
Having this kind of "service" at the only local shop would be enough
to convert me to 100 per cent mail order, and after all my business
with her was absolutely positively finished, with no loose ends to tie
up, I'd probably write her a gentle note telling her why she wouldn't
be seeing me anymore.
Nan
Anne Gwin
In article <19970923222...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
allst...@aol.com (Allstlpurr) wrote:
>I have alot of
> knowledge about alot of things (passed the test for JEOPARDY, Haven't heard
> anything yet, but I passed the test ;>) and have been called a know-it-all,
> or smarta**.
I grew up being called "The Brain" (waaay before it was cool to Try To
Take Over The World!!) and "The Walking Encyclopaedia." I always told
myself I'd rather be called a smart@$$ than a dumb@$$. Not that it really
helped when I was thirteen and a geek.
AustinAnne
(Now that I'm 29 and a geek, OTOH...) ;-)
Nan
In article <605ks0$igu$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>,> ChickaPooh (chick...@aol.com) absolutely was *not* the one who wrote:
> : >>>>You have a shop here with people who have no tact! Oy!!!!<<<<<
>
> : Guys....come on now! =( In defense of the original poster (postee?)...
> : her store DID NOT say anything to the customer.
>
>
> : Sorry so long...but geesh, the original poster meant no harm!
> : Wendy
>
> True enough, but the above comment wasn't about the original poster's
> store. Go back and reread the thread of posts and responses----that
> sentence above was specifically and clearly in response to an anecdote
> about a *different* store......
>
> Sherri
Somewhere along the way in this thread Chickapooh's name inadvertently
ended
up over the "Oy" bit, when it was Suzanne who wrote that--and, exactly
as
Sherri points out, Suzanne was referring to a different store that Mary
had
mentioned, *not* the store where the original poster works. And, IMHO,
Suzanne was being the soul of tact in her characterization of the
person in
the store Mary spoke of. I'm sure I'm not the only one who thought of
*much*
worse things that could be said about the woman who attacked Mary's
abilities
and stitching.
There is a lot of confusion when we think a person is saying one thing
when
actually she or he said something else. Then we reply to what we
thought was
meant and everything gets more muddled than ever. Especially when some
of the
postings people are writing about aren't provided by many news servers
until
hours or days later.
It would be very good if we all made sure we read postings carefully to
get
the facts, think before we reply, remember that we probably have not
seen all
the postings that people are replying to, check to see that what we
wrote is
really what we mean, and correctly credit the writers of the posting
parts
that we leave in our replies.
Nan, who was being *so* careful to read over her posting before she
sent it that she came *this* close to sending it without signing it.
Go figure! :-)
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Steve and Terri
Anne Gwin (agwin.the....@mail.utexas.edu) wrote:
: In article <19970923222...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
: allst...@aol.com (Allstlpurr) wrote:
:
: >I have alot of
: > knowledge about alot of things (passed the test for JEOPARDY, Haven't heard
: > anything yet, but I passed the test ;>) and have been called a know-it-all,
: > or smarta**.
:
: I grew up being called "The Brain" (waaay before it was cool to Try To
: Take Over The World!!) and "The Walking Encyclopaedia." I always told
: myself I'd rather be called a smart@$$ than a dumb@$$. Not that it really
: helped when I was thirteen and a geek.
... or when I was 18 and a geek, and got dumped by a guy for being smarter
than he was.
Terri (who, if it happened now, would say, well, DUH!)
--
Terri Carl
ter...@neosoft.com
Anne Gwin
In article <60dolp$hl9$1...@uuneo.neosoft.com>, ter...@neosoft.com (Steve and
Terri) wrote:
> ... or when I was 18 and a geek, and got dumped by a guy for being smarter
> than he was.
Ouch! Boy does *that* bring back memories! My mom helped me get over it by
telling me about when she was in college...she'd go on a date, get
thoroughly bored, plead a headache, go home, and work trig problems til 3
a.m. (She was a math major.) The first guy she _wasn't_ bored by, she
married. (They just celebrated their 34th anniversary, too, so it musta
worked.) ;-) I used a similar system to find my own darling DF...
AustinAnne
Geeky child of geeks and proud of it!
Suzanne
OK!! OK!!!!! Everyone get BACK to their places and KEEP STITCHING!!!!
Keep your hands to yourselves and NO TALKING!!!! BE GOOD!!!! Sorry for
the mistake. GET BACK TO YOUR LINEN AND MUSH!!!! WHAT??!!! Allright,
you can go pee. Everyone else, carry on!!!
<sorry, I am a sahm for a 6yo, a 4yo, a 2yo, and a 6mo. this is how I talk
sometimes>
<<<<hugs to you austinanne! sorry! sometimes I get tired...hey! if you feel
b@#$%y you go get some hundred dollar S.E.X. and a half-caff-double-decaff
and a chocochip scone at Nordy's. Take care, sister!!! Lotsa hugs!!!!>>>>
--
Suzanne
XXXXXXX
Love is all you need.
Anne Gwin <agwin.the....@mail.utexas.edu> wrote in article
<agwin.the.unspammab...@slip-89-6.ots.utexas.edu>...
> In article <01bcc780$e120dd60$9ad72299@default>, "Suzanne"
> <Magnus_H...@msn.com> wrote:
>
> > Well, one of us referred to her as 'bitchy'. That isn't very
nice.
>
> Now, Suzanne, we both know you're talking about me. Except **YOU
MISQUOTED
> ME!** I said, "What are you bitching about?" That is *NOT* the same as
> saying, "You are bitchy." Next time, please go back and make sure of your
> facts; in a long thread like this, it's very easy to forget who said
what,
> to whom, and how warmly. ;-)
>
> AustinAnne, feeling rather bitchy herself today.
> And, you know, this response STILL isn't a flame. It is a semi-polite
> correction.
>
LLindCharl
Suzanne wrote:
><<<<hugs to you austinanne! sorry! sometimes
> I get tired...hey! if you feel
>b@#$%y you go get some hundred dollar S.E.X.
>and a half-caff-double-decaff
>and a chocochip scone at Nordy's. Take care,
>sister!!! Lotsa hugs!!!!>>>>
>--
>Suzanne
Oh, I didn't sleep well last night and I'm awfully tired.
I read "Get some hundred dollar S.E.X. and a half-
caff" as Get some hundred dollar SEX and hand
cuffs! I need a nap.
Laura C.
Be a life long or short, it's completeness depends on
what it was lived for......David Jordan
Nevina Kelly
Personally I wouldnt say anything......this lady is stitching for her own
enjoyment .....and if she is happy enough with her accomplishments to pay
for the finishing I really dont think its up to anyone else to judge
her.......if she was asking you to sell her work or something like that it
would be a different situation.....
Nevina
Perth Australia
Annie...@aol.com wrote in article <8747698...@dejanews.com>...
>
.
> The problem is her needlework is........less than good. It's fairly
> awful to be honest with you. She did not ask for our opinion on her
> needlework but when someone is spending THAT kind of money, you'd think
> they are proud of their accomplishments.
>
> Our question is: Do we say something to her? Do we suggest ways she can
> better improve her stitching technique? Do we suggest classes? Or do we
> keep our mouths shut?
>
> Please help us. This woman is a regular customer and we really
> appreciate her business. We don't want to offend her but we do want to
> help. Thanks in advance for your consideration and responses.
Wiffle 31
>A teacher's word carries a great deal of influence to students and I
>don't blame Vickie for her traumatic experience.
My son has just moved into a new class and is thriving! Last year was
terrible - tears/refusing to read/ refusing to go to school - and why?
Because every piece of work he did was marked "Tom could do better" - This
term his new teacher has praised his work from the start and he goes to
school happy and reads fluently. I wonder why?
Lottie:D
Trish Lavis
My very first teaching post was in an 'economically challenged' area.
Nearly all the kids lived in sub-standard housing and had extremely poor
expectations for themselves. There was a kid in this 5th class (aged 11)
who announced to me: "I like you, Mrs Lavis, and I'll try not to be bad
this year, but I'm stupid, see. So don't be too hard on me, 'cause Mum
reckons I'm past it (ie. past help)".
At first, this boy was quite a behaviour problem. It didn't take long to
see that he was bored, unable to take part in lessons because he had
missed some basic skills. I made a deal with him. If he'd work with me
alone for two hours a week, I'd ensure that he'd be able to read and add
up by the end of the year.
We won! Jason worked with me on the quiet and I praised every lift of
his eyebrow in class. To watch a child glow with the unexpected pleasure
of praise for a job well done is just - just - wonderful.
The tragedy of this boy was that his former teachers had expected a
certain level of success from him and been disappointed when he failed.
No-one had ever realised that he was one of those *normal* people who
thrives on praise, not criticism. I shudder when I imagine where this
boy would have ended up if I hadn't been lucky enough to catch him.
Today, he's 22 and working through an electrical apprenticeship.
Well done, Jason!
Trish {|:-}
PS. I have a private feeling that a lot of teachers are there because
teaching is an easy option at the end of a degree. Many of us are there
because it's a true vocation, but sadly, many are not.
Rubrtrukr
Trish said "I have a private feeling that a lot of teachers are there
because teaching is an easy option at the end of a degree. Many of us are
there because it's a true vocation, but sadly, many are not."
thing. One of the saddest things I ever heard was that the majority of
teacher-candidates come from the bottom 10% of their high-school graduating
class--and I heard it from one of my professors. One of my neighbors at
the time, a man working on his Ed.D., told me that most 18-19year old women
go to college to get a MRS degree. And then we wonder why Johnny can't
read. Or write. Or perform even the most basic arithmetic functions.
~<|:o) Darla
There have been no dragons in my life, only small spiders and stepped-in
chewing gum. I could have handled dragons.
Kelly S
And people wonder why we elect to home-school our children. (And we have
7 of 'em. Yes, seven!)
We have home-schooled our children for 8 years now and will never go
back.
I know that there are a few great teachers out there but, I feel that
they are becoming fewer and fewer. And don't even get me started on the
lack of "basic education". When 70% of all HS grads are funtional
illiterates, something is terribly wrong.
Kelly S
Dawne Peterson
> of the saddest things I ever heard was that the majority of
> teacher-candidates come from the bottom 10% of their high-school
graduating
> class--and I heard it from one of my professors. One of my neighbors at
> the time, a man working on his Ed.D., told me that most 18-19year old
women
> go to college to get a MRS degree. And then we wonder why Johnny can't
> read. Or write.
Wait a minute!!! At my university, the University of Regina, the Faculty of
Education has one of the *highest* admission requirements among the
faculties, certainly not the dregs of high school graduates. While there
was a time when "Teacher's Colleges" gathered students who flunked out of
"real" courses (my high school science teacher taught physics because he
failed engineering, by his own admission), that isn't true here today.
And that second statement!!!!! The majority of students at U of R are
female, although we are not all under 20, even as undergraduates. It is
demeaning and insulting to each of us to suggest that we are here looking
for men. That outmoded idea was not funny in the highschool yearbooks of
the 50s and 60s, when it was commonly presented as a life goal for young
women, and it is especially not funny today when women and men are faced
equally with the task of supporting themselves, each others and their
families in view of diminishing govenment social safety nets. Maybe, just
maybe, women seriously want to equip themselves for life and work. Maybe,
just maybe, men also hope to meet future life partners at university---we
don't belittle them for that, so why attribute this only to young women,
and treat it as a defect in character rather than part of life and growing
into adulthood.
Off my soapbox now.
Dawne, a female university student, not under 20, not looking for love, but
just looking.
LuchtS
Someone wrote:
>> of the saddest things I ever heard was that the majority of
>> teacher-candidates come from the bottom 10% of their high-school
>graduating
>> class--and I heard it from one of my professors. One of my neighbors at
>> the time, a man working on his Ed.D., told me that most 18-19year old
>women
>> go to college to get a MRS degree. And then we wonder why Johnny can't
>> read. Or write.
And Dawn replied:
>Wait a minute!!! At my university, the University of Regina, the Faculty of
>Education has one of the *highest* admission requirements among the
>faculties, certainly not the dregs of high school graduates. While there
>was a time when "Teacher's Colleges" gathered students who flunked out of
>"real" courses (my high school science teacher taught physics because he
>failed engineering, by his own admission), that isn't true here today.
>And that second statement!!!!! The majority of students at U of R are
>female, although we are not all under 20, even as undergraduates. It is
>demeaning and insulting to each of us to suggest that we are here looking
>for men. That outmoded idea was not funny in the highschool yearbooks of
>the 50s and 60s, when it was commonly presented as a life goal for young
>women, and it is especially not funny today when women and men are faced
>equally with the task of supporting themselves, each others and their
>families in view of diminishing govenment social safety nets. Maybe, just
>maybe, women seriously want to equip themselves for life and work. Maybe,
>just maybe, men also hope to meet future life partners at university---we
>don't belittle them for that, so why attribute this only to young women,
>and treat it as a defect in character rather than part of life and growing
>into adulthood.
>Off my soapbox now.
>Dawne, a female university student, not under 20, not looking for love, but
>just looking.
>
Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap. Good for you, Dawne. Your observations
are right on target and I greatly admire your defense of yourself and your
fellow students. Sondra
is admirable.
Robillard T./Robillard J.
I have just got to comment on this because this is something I have been
thinking about for the past several weeks, I work in an elementary
school in the kindergarten wing and go to four of the five kindergarten
classes every day. These are children who are in a formal school
setting for the first time and what I see every day would make you pull
your hair out in frustration,
I am _not_ talking about the teachers. I am talking about the kids.
The behavior problems we see (at age 4 and 5, no less) you would not
believe. At least every class has one or more students who have a real
chip-on-the-shoulder attitude, a "I don't want to do this and you can't
make me" attitude. Full out temper tantrums, foul language, hitting and
kicking other students; we have it all. Yes, these children
undoubtedly need extra love and attention. While you're giving to them,
the other 20 children are just sitting there. You can't just give them
directions and leave them to their table work.
At least half of every class can't follow even one-step directions and
quite a few of them have never held a crayon or pencil in their lives.
We've asked the parents and the common response is, "Oh no, We 've
never let him have those. He might make a mess or his little
brother/sister might eat them." They don't know colors, shapes and
some don't even know their body parts.
Its obvious that many of these poor little kids aren't getting enough
sleep. They arrive in the mornings cranky, whining, and yawning day
after day. Again we ask the parents and we hear, "Oh, she just won't go
to bed at night." or "Well, most nights we don't get in till 9 or 10."
We send notes home and the children bring home papers that they've done
for their parents to see. Its heartbreaking to open book bags and see
all the same stuff in there day after day and know that no one at home
is bothering to take it out and look at it. And when we do get a parent
in for a conference, what we hear most often is, "I just don't know what
to do with him/her." or "My child doesn't do things like that.' (never
mind that 4 adults and 20 children saw him/her do it).
Its not just kindergarten. I hear the other teachers in the lounge
talking about the homework they give that never gets done. One teacher
told his class to just finish coloring in the picture, bring it back,
and get an A. Half of his class didn't bring the paper in.
The point of all this ranting is that we _can't do it all_. Parents
have to be responsible for teaching their children some things, for
monitoring their behavior and work, and for seeing that they get enough
sleep at night. (Incidentally, a little less TV wouldn't hurt,
either.) There are some wonderful parents out there doing a fantastic
jub. Unfortunately, your children are suffering because of the behavior
of the children whose parents just don't give a damn.
Before everyone gets riled up, I would like to point out three things.
One is that parents can't let their children get away with certain
behaviors all their lives and then not expect them to practice those
same behaviors at school. Secondly, parents should realize that _they_
are the adults, its their house and Johnny/Jane is only a five year old
kid. Thirdly, I am a parent, my son was ADHD and I raised a stepson
from age 10 who had been given very little parenting at all. I may be
wrong but I think I know whereof I speak.
(Hugh sigh). Now, I will get off my soapbox and go back to eating my
stuffed shrimp which are now cold. I didn't mean or want to offend
anybody but I am tired of hearing teachers get all the blame. Most of
them work very hard both at school and at home preparing lessons. In
addition, they spend a great deal of their own money (out of a salary
that is barely adequate) to get things to make your children's lessons
more interesting and educational. I even know a few who buy school
supplies, food and clothing for those children whose parents can't
afford them. If you want things to get better in public education, take
some time and volunteer in your child's classroom.
Judy
P.S. Read to your children. Talk to your children. I strongly suspect
that some of these kids have never been read to and spoken to very
little. Please help me to get the word out in all your communities.:
Read and talk to your kids every day.
Mom4Years
>I am tired of hearing teachers get all the blame. Most of
>them work very hard both at school and at home preparing lessons. In
>addition, they spend a great deal of their own money (out of a salary
>that is barely adequate) to get things to make your children's lessons
>more interesting and educational. I even know a few who buy school
>supplies, food and clothing for those children whose parents can't
>afford them.
Hear, hear!!! I am not a school teacher, I don't have the patience for it.
But, I have all the respect in the world for teachers. There are a few bad
apples, just like in any group, but they are few and fair between in my
experiences. I have a 15yo boy and a 9yo girl and in all the years of
school that we have been through, there has only been one teacher that we
just couldn't work with. That was 13 years ago, tho. My son and daughters
teachers have been wonderful since then, they know that if they ever have a
problem with either of my children to call and let us know. They CANNOT do
it all, parents have to be involved. You can't blame the schools or the
teachers for kids that haven't learned, if the parents don't get involved
or they don't care, the child is not going to take his or her education
seriously. In this day and age, there are entirely too many parents who
think that kids are gonna raise themselves. (OK, so I can't spell...LOL, it
was never my strong point.) Some of these kids that are in trouble today
could have used a stronger moral and ethical influence at home from their
parents. I believe in telling my kids as often as I can how proud I am of
them and that I love them. I just wish more parents would do the same.
Just my .02,
Kathy
Hoping to set a good example for my kids, so they can be better people
than me.
Ocheryl
>(passed the test for JEOPARDY,
fantastic--i envy you. i would love to be on that show. i'm pretty good
at home, but boy do the double jeopardy questions get me!
>have heard "fat" remarks all of my life.
i had an interesting experience today. i saw my orthopedic surgeon for a
cortisone injection in my knee (irritated due to sprained ankle followed by
back surgey). first, he had to look at what i was stitching, millenium
angel, and luckily her face is done. he said, kinda looks a little like
princess di. a reach, but the hair color is right. then, i brought up the
weight thing and not needing a lecture, and all he said was bicycle. he
got an A++ in bedside manner!
and finally, regarding all these INTERESTING notes, i have learned a
little history; but if the different type of teas that have been suggested
don't calm everyone done, i say it is time for a REALLY good chocolate truffle
well, one more thing. the shop owner who started this thread is my
favorite shop; her walls are lined with finished samples. i just found
her this year....a wonderful find
cheryl olsen
>>>> i don't think we are in kansas anymore<<<<
Ocheryl
>or when I was 18 and a geek, and got dumped by a guy for being smarter
>> than he was.
yeppers, hits a sore spot. sad to say, i put one ex partially thru
college and mutiple jobs. second ex thru running his own business in
between almost working for businesses.
at least the first ex and i had lots of fun, high school sweethearts and
in fact we were just chatting earlier. but why is it that they seem to get
on their feet and make money after they are gone?
there is justice #2(not on speaking terms ever) did get wiped out by his
next wife--of course she was NOT a stitcher!
Trish Lavis
Judy, your post was just a hint at some of the problems with our kids.
It's scary when I think of my own parents who had the time to teach me
things and take me places and give me experiences that had such deep
effects on my development. Parenting techniques have changed so much
just in my own lifetime. I wonder all the time whether I have the
wherewithal to give my daughter the best grounding in life.
Unfortunately, it's *time* that no-one has today. DH and I made a
conscious choice to be poor so that our daughter would have me to
nurture her (chuckle!) Little did we know that Redundancy would give her
her Daddy at home as well. So now we are incredibly 'financially
challenged'. But our Ellie knew her alphabet from age two and could
recite 'The Owl and the Pussycat' from the same age. She sings in tune
and knows all her shapes and colours and body parts as you suggest. I'm
hoping she'll be reading by four, but she'll determine that, not me.
I see most other families where two cars and a stereo video player are
more important than what we are trying to do for our daughter. That's
fine for them: their choice. But when Ellie goes to school, she'll be in
a class of her peers whose values are way different from her own. It
worries me what will happen then. Will Ellie be labelled a 'dag' (Oz
word for 'nerd') or will she fit in?
We have the pressures of advertising telling us (and our kids) what we
should buy to be healthy, stay slim (hahahhhahaha...) or in the swing of
things. Then we have political correctness telling us what *not* to say
and what *not* to think (How do you legislate on what people feel???).
Then we have information technology telling us that our cripplingly
expensive equipment is outmoded before we've even paid it off. Best of
all, we're told it's terribly unfashionable and declasse to believe in
God or follow any belief system.
How do you win against all this? Our children are only little. They
don't understand (that's why we call them children). Yet they are being
given more and more rights and responsibilities before *we* believe they
are ready for it. Governments know more about our children than we do.
And all the while, our kids are growing up without all the good, solid,
worthwhile background that *we* got.
I don't know why I went on and on like this - sorry - but like you, I've
seen schoolkids from the best and worst environments. It's downright
depressing!
I need chocolate now - (shutting my eyes as I pass by the mirror).
Trish {|:-}
Suzanne
I would NEVER trust the government schools with my kids. Private
schools are no better. No way! I CARE about my babies! Drugs...preteen
sex...illiteracy...gangs...substandard teachers... ...No way in
H..E..(double hockey sticks)!!!
Homeschooling rules!!!!
(homeschooling all 4 children all the way)
(stepping off my soapbox now...reaching for a cookie...)
--
Suzanne
XXXXXXX
Love is all you need.
One of the saddest things I ever heard was that the majority of
> > teacher-candidates come from the bottom 10% of their high-school
graduating
> > class--and I heard it from one of my professors.
> And people wonder why we elect to home-school our children. (And we have
> 7 of 'em. Yes, seven!)
> We have home-schooled our children for 8 years now and will never go
> back.
Nancy Eddy
Karen Droms wrote:
> *sigh* Thank you for choosing to insult my chosen profession and that
> of my mother and two of my three brothers. While there certainly are
> problems in some public schools, parents who don't take an active
> interest in their children are as much to blame as the teachers.
> Schools are *not* the sole cause of the drug/pregnancy/gangs problems
> we have in this society, and it might interest you to know that one of
> the highest correlates to successful school performance and literacy
> is having parents who read to their children. So if you want to put
> the blame for illiteracy somewhere, put it on those parents who can't
> be bothered to read their child to sleep.
Thank you, Karen! I don't homeschool.... I KNOW I'm not qualified,
and frankly, I don't think most people who do ARE qualified (like
my hair-brained cousin who didn't even graduate from high school, but
homeschools [when she's not busy doing something else like shopping]
her six children. Moreover, I want my children to have the experiences
and socialization to enable them to live in the REAL world - and I
really think that is the primary deficiency with home-schooling.
That is not to say all schools are equal - I live 40 miles away from
my job in order to provide my children a safe neighborhood and a
high-quality school system. And it has been my experience that
involving your children in worthwhile activities (band, sports)
and subtly encouraging/discouraging certain friendships, works to
keep them out of trouble.
I have been VERY happy with my children's elementary and so far
(two month's in) middle school. They are IN our subdivision,
close by, highly rated (Spring Independent School District) and
the teachers really care about the children and take extra care
to meet their needs. In my opinion, they are professionals who
are well-trained to do their jobs, take their jobs seriously, and
do them very well.
Thanks to our wonderful teachers for jobs well done!
Nancy
CHINA WITE
I don't consider it an insult if people (mostly men) think I'm in college
for my MRS degree.....I realize those comments come mostly from those in a
different generation.......I certainly don't understand some of the things
my parents believe but they don't always understand my position either and
they raised me!
while we're on the topic.......what is so wrong with young women who are
in college and actively seeking a husband?......I was raised to believe
that marriage is like a job and the dedication you put in both will be
returned in kind, which includes what you do before you have both.
no, I'm not married and no, I'm not interested!
words cannot offend me unless I allow them
thao
current projects - antiques (gloria & pat), flower vase II (eva
rosenstand), amid amish life (CS&CC), hardanger doily, tudor-rose sampler
(sampler & antique needlework), breath of spring (paula vaughan), north
woods xmas stocking (CS&CC)
storminpe
I guess the question would be...how are you seeking a husband. I don't
think there is anything wrong with looking for "Mr. Right", but I have
found in my experience that is always when you aren't looking that he
appears:)
CHINA WITE <chin...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19971001102...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
George Blum
Many who would have made good teachers do not go into teaching because the
financial rewards of working in industry are so much greater. Especially true in
Science and Mathematics.
Please, read to your children. Read to your grandchildren. Read for your own
pleasure. Children who grow up in a house where people enjoy reading, will learn
to read and enjoy it. Embellish the reading by asking your children to picture
the scene in their minds. There are also many good CD-ROMS on the market for
children to make the computer a part of their lives. Learning programs can teach
children colors, shapes, numbers, phonics, etc.
George
Trish Lavis wrote:
> PS. I have a private feeling that a lot of teachers are there because
Marianne Teubner
Karen,
As a former teacher and mother of two "Bravo" for your reply!!!!
Marianne
Karen Droms wrote:
>
> On Tue, 30 Sep 1997 20:29:30 -0700, "Suzanne"
> <Magnus_H...@msn.com> wrote:
>
> > I would NEVER trust the government schools with my kids. Private
> >schools are no better. No way! I CARE about my babies! Drugs...preteen
> >sex...illiteracy...gangs...substandard teachers... ...No way in
> >H..E..(double hockey sticks)!!!
> > Homeschooling rules!!!!
>
> *sigh* Thank you for choosing to insult my chosen profession and that
> of my mother and two of my three brothers. While there certainly are
> problems in some public schools, parents who don't take an active
> interest in their children are as much to blame as the teachers.
> Schools are *not* the sole cause of the drug/pregnancy/gangs problems
> we have in this society, and it might interest you to know that one of
> the highest correlates to successful school performance and literacy
> is having parents who read to their children. So if you want to put
> the blame for illiteracy somewhere, put it on those parents who can't
> be bothered to read their child to sleep.
>
> =======================================================================
> Karen Droms kdr...@luzerne.edu
> =======================================================================
> "If I want low-impact aerobics, I'll masturbate. If I want
> high-impact aerobics, I'll masturbate again." - Dennis Miller
skemartin
Right up front I'm going to admit that I'm an educator and proudly have
been for over twenty years. My profession may color my remarks.
However, I've been a parent for almost fifteen years now and that, too,
may color my remarks! :-)
It's a given that most, if not all, parents care about their children.
My daughter is the apple of my eye, as I'm sure yours are to you also.
It would be a very unrealistic and simplistic point of view if I
believed that I could protect my DD from drugs, teen sex, violence,
etc., by home-schooling her. It's sad, but true, that acts of violence
can (and do) happen to all of us, no matter what our schooling, our
socio-economic background, race, gender, etc. As much as I'd like to
protect DD from the bad things in life, I can't. Bad things happen to
good people. Of course, I'm not going to just throw her to the
"wolves," so to speak, but I can give her the tools to cope with these
things. My daughter, because of her public schooling, knows how to deal
with others who are different from her and has the ability to function
well in a group. Many of my formerly home-schooled students have, upon
their return to my classroom, been sorely lacking in social skills, and
unfortunately have been even further behind in basic math and reading
skills.
Yes, there are some substandard teachers, but you'd also have to agree
that there are substandard home-school teachers, too. There are those
in every profession who are not up to the standards that we'd prefer.
When I found a doctor that I didn't particularly agree with, I didn't
try to perform my own laparotomy. That would have been laughable,
wouldn't it? I could go on with other examples, but I think you
understand what I mean...
In short, you do have the choice of where to educate your children and,
though I disagree wholeheartedly with your choice (both from a parental
and an educator's point of view), I will defend your right to home
school your children. I think you've stepped a bit out-of-bounds,
though, by implying that those of us who *do* trust the government to
educate our children, don't care about our babies! I also think that
you've insulted the vast majority of outstanding teachers by
categorizing us as substandard. After all, if your teachers were
substandard then.....
By the way, my publically schooled daughter, who is almost 15, has
already been approached by several colleges who have informed us that,
because of her outstanding academic record, she would be accepted at
their institutions *without* a high school diploma! (Yes, I'm
bragging! :-) ) The lowest score on her latest standardized test,
given in spring 1997, was in the 97.5% percentile. The public schools
must be doing something right!
Sally in WV
(Current projects: Colonial Pine Tree - Liz Turner Diehl, Welcome Spot
Sampler - the Drawn Thread)
Suzanne wrote:
>
> I would NEVER trust the government schools with my kids. Private
> schools are no better. No way! I CARE about my babies! Drugs...preteen
> sex...illiteracy...gangs...substandard teachers... ...No way in
> H..E..(double hockey sticks)!!!
> Homeschooling rules!!!!
>
LSPARROW
LuchtS wrote:
>
> Sally wrote:
>
> <snipped an excellent analysis of life, schools and parents>
>
> >By the way, my publically schooled daughter, who is almost 15, has
> >already been approached by several colleges who have informed us that,
> >because of her outstanding academic record, she would be accepted at
> >their institutions *without* a high school diploma! (Yes, I'm
> >bragging! :-) ) The lowest score on her latest standardized test,
> >given in spring 1997, was in the 97.5% percentile. The public schools
> >must be doing something right!
> >
> a response to the implication that folks who send their children to
> public or private schools do not care about them. And, keep up
> the good work. From the sounds of your daughter's accomplishments,
> not only the public schools, but her mom and dad must be doing
> something right, too !!
>
> Sondra
My thanks too, I am so sick of people who put down and willnot support
public schooling when so much good has come from it. There is no
question there are poor teachers, but "by George" there a are a darn
site more good than bad and I am ust sick of the "lumping together" of
all teachers.
Same goes for anything - doesen't anyone analyise what the heck thay are
hearing and reading these days????
Lois
LuchtS
Dennis & Karen Eichorst
>Suzanne wrote:
>
> I would NEVER trust the government schools with my kids. >Private
> schools are no better. No way! I CARE about my babies! >Drugs...preteen
> sex...illiteracy...gangs...substandard teachers... ...No >way in
> H..E..(double hockey sticks)!!!
> Homeschooling rules!!!!
>
> (homeschooling all 4 children all the way)
> (stepping off my soapbox now...reaching for a cookie...)
> --
> Suzanne
> XXXXXXX
I was going to keep my mouth shut, but...
If those are your reasons for homeschooling, then the first lesson your
kids are learning from you is that if you see a problem, don't try to
fix it or overcome it, just run away to a safe place and hope the rest
of the world will solve the problem for you. When kids go to public or
private school, they still have many hours out of the day to spend with
their family. Are you so insecure about your parenting that you don't
trust your kids to maintain the morals you have taught them when they
are away from your loving arms? People who are homeschooling for
strictly religious reasons, that I guess I can comprehend to some
extent, but doing it to "protect" your children from the dangers of the
world just doesn't cut it with me. BTW, I'm home all day with my two
kids, 2 1/2 and 4 1/2, and I'm glad to be able to do it. I know it's
benefitting them and me, but I also know that they will benefit from
public schooling in the district in which we purposely bought our home.
I'm not trying to pick on you, you've made many wonderful posts,
Suzanne, but I've gotten fed up with this bit. Hugs to you and your
precious kids.
Karen
_____________________________________________
Please remove ".chlorine" from e-mail address to reply
Nancy Eddy
Dave Coss wrote:
>
> I have to agree that there are good and bad teachers. My son had a first
> grade teacher who was excellent. Unfortunately we had to move before the
> year was out. His new first grade teacher was good, too. At first I think
> she thought we just "bragging parents" about our son's capabilities but
> soon found out differently. She realized he was very bright and capable of
> doing more challenging things. He was doing second grade math in first
> grade thanks to her. Unfortunately this didn't continue. His second grade
> teacher "didn't want to challenge him too much" therefore she didn't
> challenge him at all. He continually read books well below what he was
> capable of doing. In first grade he was reading at least a 5th grade
> level, maybe above. That was before we moved. He's only testing now at
> about a 5th grade level in school but his 3rd grade teacher said she knows
> it's higher. At least his teacher this year in 4th has set a 5th grade
> level as his standard. Can't wait for conferences next month. I hoping to
> get him challenged more in other areas as well.
I agree that this can be very frustrating. The first school my
son attended in Houston would not put him in AG classes because
he had not been tested - despite the fact that they could see
his abilities! And the tests had occurred at the end of the
previous school year. The next year, we were fine. I much
prefer his present school - they are much more willing to make
changes when they see that they need to be made. I got a call
in the spring of last year suggesting that my daughter be moved
to AG math because they felt she was ready for it. IMHO, this
is the way public schools work, and I am SO glad my kids' school
does work this way!
<BIG SNIP>
> And they do a lot of their socializing at church.
Socializing at church is NOTHING like socializing in the real
world - it's too insulated. That worries me about homeschooling -
too many of these children know NOTHING outside the world of
their homes and churches - how can they possibly be prepared for
the temptations and challenges of the real world?
Nancy
Lv2XStch
>Suzanne wrote:
>>
>> I would NEVER trust the government schools with my kids. Private
>> schools are no better. No way! I CARE about my babies! Drugs...preteen
>> sex...illiteracy...gangs...substandard teachers... ...No way in
>> H..E..(double hockey sticks)!!!
>> Homeschooling rules!!!!
>>
>> (homeschooling all 4 children all the way)
>> (stepping off my soapbox now...reaching for a cookie...)
>> --
>> Suzanne
>> XXXXXXX
>
Don't even go there!! How dare you imply that because I choose to send my
children to public/private school (and we've gone both ways..keeping in mind
what is the right educational setting for the individual child) that they
aren't just as precious to me as yours are to you!! Just because you choose
to homeschoool your children doesn't mean that public (or private) schooling
isn't what is best for my children.
And you can't really be so naive as to believe that the only place your
precious children will be exposed to all those terrible things (drugs, preteen
sex, gangs) is at school. You do understand that the kids who are involved in
all these unsavory activities have families (and it may be yours..do your
children have any cousins?) and have to live somewhere (it may be next door to
you...and living on a farm or a mountain doesn't mean that you are immune from
these social ills)!! Unless you plan on your children living like hermits,
you can't keep them from seeing this unpleasant side of our "modern" society.
It has been my experience that children such as yours, who have been "shut
off" from the rest of the world have the most difficulty dealing with these
issues when they are finally permitted to join the rest of the world.
The thing that really gets me here is the concern that your child may have a
"substandard" teacher in a public/private school and maybe become illiterate!!
In much the same way as a piece of paper (college diploma/teaching
certificate) does not guarantee an excellent teacher, neither does the fact
that you can biologically father or give birth to a child mean that you will
be an excellent parent. To my knowledge, parents do not have to have any
training to homeschool their children...how much more substandard can you
get?? If four (or more) years of advanced training, specifically dealing with
the education of children, cannot guarantee a good teacher, then how can you
be so sure that someone without any training will necessarily be any better??
Finally, I believe there is more here than meets the eye...
why are you so vehemently opposed to any established group provding an
education for your child?? It sounds to me like someone you are very close to
has fallen victim to one of the social ills you mention and you blame the
schools for it.
I think you need to stay off that soapbox for awhile...the lack of oxygen up
there is making your head spin!
Kathi
Dave Coss
I have to agree that there are good and bad teachers. My son had a first
grade teacher who was excellent. Unfortunately we had to move before the
year was out. His new first grade teacher was good, too. At first I think
she thought we just "bragging parents" about our son's capabilities but
soon found out differently. She realized he was very bright and capable of
doing more challenging things. He was doing second grade math in first
grade thanks to her. Unfortunately this didn't continue. His second grade
teacher "didn't want to challenge him too much" therefore she didn't
challenge him at all. He continually read books well below what he was
capable of doing. In first grade he was reading at least a 5th grade
level, maybe above. That was before we moved. He's only testing now at
about a 5th grade level in school but his 3rd grade teacher said she knows
it's higher. At least his teacher this year in 4th has set a 5th grade
level as his standard. Can't wait for conferences next month. I hoping to
get him challenged more in other areas as well.
As for home schooling....I've thought about it. And we've thought about
private as well, especially since moving here. We can't afford it and we
already pay taxes towards public school that can't be used for private. We
may end putting our daughter in private school for 1/2 a year next fall
just to get her into public kindergarten. She will miss the stupid
deadline (Aug 31) by 2 weeks and they make NO exceptions unless she spends
1/2 a year in private school and then is tested by a phsycologist at the
cost of $135 (I think we have to pay). The reason they make no exceptions
is because they would have to pay for testing of every low income child.
Doesn't matter that your child is bright and can ace their test. They just
don't want to have to pay for testing. If we had had to hold our son back
a year he probably would have lost ground. It happened to my nephew. He
was in a Catholic school for years until my brother and SIL moved from CA
to WA. They enrolled the kids in public school. My nephew's grades went
from A's and B's to C's and D's. Why? Because he had already learned
everything they were teaching! He was a year ahead them. Wouldn't advance
him a grade and did nothing to challenge him. It was quite a while before
his grades improved. Did nothing for his self esteem either. I don't want
that to happen to my kids. We do what we can to teach them stuff at home
but I'm not qualified to be a teacher. I have a friend who homeschools.
Her kids have done great. And they do a lot of their socializing at
church. And her kids will never attend public school again. Her son had a
teacher who threw furniture across the room. And she had a counselor once
tell her that the foster child she had "just needed to let things slide for
a year"! And I know of one person connected with my school district that
said if kids haven't learned to read by the 4th grade they NEVER will. I
do believe that, despite what I've experienced and my friends have, that
there are excellent teachers and administrators out there. Finding them is
hard at times. I also believe that parents HAVE TO BE INVOLVED!!!! I know
what school work my son is doing and what he's capable of. We see to it
his homework is done. We ask him questions and provide the means for him
to learn new things. He wants to be challenged. He learns quickly. My
daughter is just like my son. We work with her daily, too. A neighbor,
who used to teach preschool, was surprised to find out my daughter, not
quite 3 at the time, knew as many colors as she did. Most of the kids she
taught barely knew red, blue, and yellow.
I don't like a lot of the things going on in public schools but so far my
son is doing great. His test scores last year were also
fantastic--averaged 95% percentile. Something must be right somewhere. I
just hope things go as well for my daughter.
Lori
skemartin <skem...@citynet.net> wrote in article
<3432EF...@sea.citynet.net>...
> By the way, my publically schooled daughter, who is almost 15, has
> already been approached by several colleges who have informed us that,
> because of her outstanding academic record, she would be accepted at
> their institutions *without* a high school diploma! (Yes, I'm
> bragging! :-) ) The lowest score on her latest standardized test,
> given in spring 1997, was in the 97.5% percentile. The public schools
> must be doing something right!
>
> Sally in WV
> (Current projects: Colonial Pine Tree - Liz Turner Diehl, Welcome Spot
> Sampler - the Drawn Thread)
>
Aheim
Is it our place to judge someone else's handiwork - good or bad. She who
stitched it is probably very proud of her accomplishments and whether she
finishes a project herself or has it done for her is not our place to make
judgment. There are other important matters in this world to be concerned
about. Let it go.
Allstlpurr
In article <343273e4...@newsserver.epix.net>, kdr...@luzerne.edu
(Karen Droms) writes:
>
>Thank *you* for appreciating our hard work!
>
>When I read messages slamming the teaching profession and our school
>system as a whole, I'm reminded of a student I once had. He was a
>good kid who did poorly in school, but excelled in the summer program
>for at-risk students in which I taught. His mother made a point of
>telling him that if abortion had been legal when she was pregnant, he
>wouldn't be around. I guess perhaps because of cases like that, I
>should condemn all parents and start campaigning for forced
>sterilization...
>
>
>
I received this from a fellow stitcher and asked her if I could pass it on
to the ng. She said yes, so here it is.
All the Good Things:
>
> He was in the first third grade class I taught at Saint Mary's School
> in Morris, Minn. All 34 of my students were dear to me, but Mark
Eklund
> as one in a million. Very neat in appearance, but had that
> happy-to-be-alive attitude that made even his occasional
> mischieviousness delightful.
>
> Mark talked incessantly. I had to remind him again and again that
> talking without permission was not acceptable. What impressed me so
> much, though, was his sincere response every time I had to correct him
> for misbehaving - "Thank you for correcting me, Sister!" I didn't know
> what to make of it at first, but before long I became accustomed to
> hearing it many times a day.
>
> One morning my patience was growing thin when Mark talked once too
> often, and then I made a novice-teacher's mistake. I looked at him and
> said, "If you say one more word, I am going to tape your mouth shut!"
>
> It wasn't ten seconds later when Chuck blurted out, "Mark is talking
> again." I hadn't asked any of the students to help me watch Mark, but
> since I had stated the punishment in front of the class, I had to act
on
> it.
>
> I remember the scene as if it had occurred this morning. I walked to
> my desk, very deliberately opened my drawer and took out a roll of
> masking tape. Without saying a word, I proceeded to Mark's desk, tore
> off two pieces of tape and made a big X with them over his mouth. I
> then returned to the front of the room. As I glanced at Mark to see
how
> he was doing he winked at me. That did it! I started laughing. The
> class cheered as I walked back to Mark's desk, removed the tape and
> shrugged my shoulders. His first words were, "Thank you for correcting
> me, Sister."
>
> At the end of the year I was asked to teach junior-high math. The
> years flew by, and before I knew it Mark was in my classroom again. He
> was more handsome than ever and just as polite. Since he had to listen
> carefully to my instructions in the "new math," he did not talk as much
> in ninth grade as he had in the third.
>
> One Friday, things just didn't feel right. We had worked hard on a
> new concept all week, and I sensed that the students were frowning,
> frustrated with themselves - and edgy with one another. I had to stop
> this crankiness before it got out of hand. So I asked them to list
the
> names of the other students in the room on two sheets of paper, leaving
> a space between each name. Then I told them to think of the nicest
> thing they could say about each of their classmates and write it down.
>
> It took the remainder of the class period to finish the assignment,
> and as the students left the room, each one handed me the papers.
> Charlie smiled. Mark said, "Thank you for teaching me, Sister. Have
> a good weekend."
>
> That Saturday, I wrote down the name of each student on a separate
sheet
> of paper, and I listed what everyone else had said about that
> individual.
>
> On Monday I gave each student his or her list. Before long, the entire
> class was smiling. "Really?" I heard whispered. "I never knew that
> meant anything to anyone!" "I didn't know others liked me so much!"
>
> No one ever mentioned those papers in class again. I never knew if
> they discussed them after class or with their parents, but it didn't
> matter. The exercise had accomplished its purpose. The students were
> happy with themselves and one another again.
>
> That group of students moved on. Several years later, after I
> returned from vacation, my parents met me at the airport. As we were
> driving home, Mother asked me the usual questions about the trip - the
> weather, my experiences in general. There was a light lull in the
> conversation. Mother gave Dad a side-ways glance and simply says,
Dad?"
> My father cleared his throat as he usually did before something
> important.
>
> "The Eklunds called last night," he began. "Really?" I said. "I
> haven't heard from them in years. I wonder how Mark is."
>
> Dad responded quietly. "Mark was killed in Vietnam," he said. "The
> funeral is tomorrow, and his parents would like it if you could
attend."
> To this day I can still point to the exact spot on I-494 where Dad told
> me about Mark.
>
> I had never seen a serviceman in a military coffin before. Mark looked
> so handsome, so mature. All I could think at that moment was, Mark, I
> would give all the masking tape in the world if only you would talk to
> me.
>
> The church was packed with Mark's friends. Chuck's sister sang "The
> Battle Hymn of the Republic." Why did it have to rain on the day of
the
> funeral? It was difficult enough at the graveside. The pastor said
the
> usual prayers, and the bugler played taps. One by one those who loved
> Mark took a last walk by the coffin and sprinkled it with holy water.
>
> I was the last one to bless the coffin. As I stood there, one of the
> soldiers who had acted as pallbearer came up to me. "Were you Mark's
> math teacher?" he asked. I nodded as I continued to stare at the
> coffin.
>
> "Mark talked about you a lot," he said.
>
> After the funeral, most of Mark's former classmates headed to Chucks
> farmhouse for lunch. Mark's mother and father were there, obviously
> waiting for me. "We want to show you something," his father said,
> taking a wallet out of his pocket. "They found this on Mark when he
was
> killed.
>
> We thought you might recognize it."
>
> Opening the billfold, he carefully removed two worn pieces of
> notebook paper that had obviously been taped, folded and refolded many
> times. I knew without looking that the papers were the ones on which I
> had listed all the good things each of Mark's classmates had said about
> him.
>
> "Thank you so much for doing that" Mark's mother said. "As you can
see,
> Mark treasured it."
>
> Mark's classmates started to gather around us. Charlie smiled rather
> sheepishly and said, "I still have my list. It's in the top drawer of
> my desk at home." Chuck's wife said, "Chuck asked me to put this in
our
> wedding album." "I have mine too," Marilyn said. "It's in my diary."
> Then Vicki, another classmate, reached into her pocketbook, took out
her
> wallet and showed her worn and frazzled list to the group. "I carry
> this with me at all times," Vicki said without batting an eyelash. "I
> think we all saved our lists."
>
> That's when I finally sat down and cried. I cried for Mark and for
> all his friends who would never see him again.
>
> THE END (but read on, please)
> written by: Sister Helen P. Mrosia
>
> The purpose of this letter, is to encourage everyone to compliment
> the people you love and care about. We often tend to forget the
> importance of showing our affections and love. Sometimes the smallest
> of things, could mean the most to another. I am asking you, to
please
> send this letter around and spread the message and encouragement, to
> express your love and caring by complimenting and being open with
> communication. The density of people in society, is so thick, that we
> forget that life wil end one day. And we don't know when that one day
> will be. So please, I beg of you, to tell the people you love and care
> for, that they are special and important. Tell them, before it is too
> late.
cbi...@nci.att.com
Karen,
That is a beautiful story from your friend. Compliments are the best
way to handle life. They are harder to give but they last the longest.
Cindy (sitting hear with tears streaming down my face)
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Barb Bandel
>>Suzanne wrote:
>>>
>>> I would NEVER trust the government schools with my kids. Private
lv2x...@aol.com (Lv2XStch) wrote:
>Don't even go there!! How dare you imply that because I choose to send my
> children to public/private school (and we've gone both ways..keeping in mind
> what is the right educational setting for the individual child) that they
> aren't just as precious to me as yours are to you!! Just because you choose
> to homeschoool your children doesn't mean that public (or private) schooling
> isn't what is best for my children.
I probably should keep my mouth shut, but this is a subject I find
extremely interesting. My three children attended public schools in
North Carolina, no less. Trust me, our school system has it's share
of problems, not to mention underpaid and overworked teachers. We
live in Raleigh and even here, it's not the best situation. My son
was not "state identified AG", so I kept him in the neighborhood
schools. My twin daughters were AG and I opted to send them to Magnet
Schools from third grade through high school. These schools were
located in some of the worst sections of town, but then the programs
were far better. All three turned out just fine - Andy has graduated
from Appalachian State University with two degrees. He is married to
a wonderful girl, they both work for Nations Bank and are extremely
happy. Karen and Jen are seniors at UNC-Chapel Hill. Both are very
good students. Karen has been elected to Phi Beta Kappa and is
spending this semester in London. None of my children have messed
with alcohol, drugs, or illicit sex. They watched as others did get
involved in these things, but I gave them a good upbringing, a solid
religious background and kept them involved in sports and youth
groups. I can't imagine my ever trying to school them at home. They
need to be out in the real world.
And then, on the other hand, I see my neighbor across the street with
her three sons whom she "schools" at home. She told me the same
things Suzanne said - all those reasons not to send them to public or
private school. These boys are hideous. They have the foulest mouths
I have ever heard. Just last week, they were playing with the 7 year
old girls next door to me in her yard where there is a two story
playhouse. She and the youngest boy, who is 8, were egged on by one
of the older ones to undress and lay on top of each other. Thank God,
nothing happened to that little girl, but it could have. These boys
admitted to her mom that their dad has porno movies and they watch
them when their parents are out. Well, the mom works part time and
these kids are alone some during the day. I get home from work
between 1 and 2 and already the boys are out in the street on their
skateboards. And then too, I've been in the malls or grocery stores
during school hours and see plenty of kids with their moms shopping.
I'm sorry to be so long winded, but I really do believe that children
need to be with kids their own age and be taught by persons who are
trained to do just that job.
And now I'll jump off my soapbox and hope I don't get flamed.
Barb
Beth Katz
George Blum (blu...@mail.dec.com) wrote:
> Many who would have made good teachers do not go into teaching
> because the financial rewards of working in industry are so much
> greater. Especially true in Science and Mathematics.
"Those that can, do. Those that understand, teach."
>
> Please, read to your children. Read to your grandchildren. Read for
> your own pleasure. Children who grow up in a house where people
> enjoy reading, will learn to read and enjoy it. Embellish the
> reading by asking your children to picture the scene in their
> minds. There are also many good CD-ROMS on the market for children
> to make the computer a part of their lives. Learning programs can
> teach children colors, shapes, numbers, phonics, etc.
Amen. As my kids watch Lion King yet again, but we've also read the
book today, and they are jumping off the chairs while "watching".
> Trish Lavis wrote:
> > PS. I have a private feeling that a lot of teachers are there because
> > teaching is an easy option at the end of a degree. Many of us are there
> > because it's a true vocation, but sadly, many are not.
At least around here, teaching positions aren't easy to come by.
The schools can be somewhat picky. But they can't fire entrenched people.
But a lot of the teachers I know are very dedicated.
Again, "Those that can, do. Those that understand, teach." From a
colleague's web page but with no other attribution.