Art vs Craft reprise
P & I
the
group feels about some statements made to me recently:
1) Polymer clay is plastic so anything made out of it is cheap stuff
and can't be considered art.
2) Kids enjoy working with polymer clay, so what makes an adult who works
with an artist?
3) Polymer clay pieces have no place in a juried art show
Gotta tell you-they made me very angry.
I know how many hours I work to improve technique and bring quality to my
work.
I also know how many years people in this group and elsewhere have worked
to
make polymer clay an accepted art form.
I live out here in the backwoods where new innovations take awhile to catch
on
so am trying to be forgiving, but it's really hard to do.
Irene in Wi. (who is getting ready for her first juried show)
Jeanne A. E. DeVoto
<elec...@wi.frontiercomm.net> wrote:
>I don't want to start a big controversy, but I'd really like to know what
>the group feels about some statements made to me recently:
Well, they're rather silly and ignorant statements...but the attitudes are
out there.
Probably the most effective tactic (once you get finished strangling the
people who've just called your work crap, that is...) is analogy.
- "You know, you're right. Kids enjoy working with watercolors, so what
gives an adult watercolor painter the nerve to call himself an artist?"
- "Well, what the artist does is a lot different than what the kids playing
do..."
- "Exactly."
Acrylic paint is plastic. Is any piece done in acrylics therefore "not art"?
As for the "no place in a juried art show" stuff, perhaps you could list
some juried art shows where the material *does* have a place.
Prying open closed minds is hard work.
--
What does not kill us makes us stranger.
The Polymer Clayspot <http://www.best.com/~jaed/clayspot/>
kk
> As for the "no place in a juried art show" stuff, perhaps you could list
> some juried art shows where the material *does* have a place.
An Ornament magazine or two with the pages earmarked at Dustin's stuff or a few
of the ads for PC in pricey uptown galleries could help convince them, too...
...or maybe just a punch in the eye.... <g>
P & I
wealth of
published material by and about polymer clay artists.
Fortunately not everyone I've met is so ignorant.
Irene in Wi.
kk <te...@soltec.net> wrote in article <35B0EB0A...@soltec.net>...
Rev. Karin Conover-Lewis
either. Plastics have been used in fine art for as long as they have been
available, and there are some wonderful works out there which could not have
been realised in any other medium. In the end, the medium is irrelevant;
whether the materials are man-made or natural is moot, because "art" exists
independant of the materials used to express it. Art simply *is*.
--
Rev. Karin Conover-Lewis
(revk...@flash.net) (commo...@usa.net)
http://members.xoom.com/revkarin
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P & I wrote in message <01bdb26e$735774e0$1dae82d1@default>...
>I don't want to start a big controversy, but I'd really like to know what
>the
>group feels about some statements made to me recently:
RBJ Mousseau
my own work to be on the threshold of art - but I do not consider it to
be craftwork, either, although I do do a lot of crafts, too! A few people
pointed out the acrylic paint is a man made material - excellent point!
Picasso once made a bull's head out of a bicyle seat and handlebars.
Where some people will see creative genious, others will see garbage.
For the people that only see garbage, I feel sorry for them. For people
who won't acknowledge polymer clay as an art medium, I say ignore them.
In my opinion it is a definite art medium, it is the artist who makes it so.
Brenda
:o)
DBuck26803
Let's see-Bruce Museum Craft Fest, Staples High,ACC Springfield-I've seen
polymer at all these quality shows. We've just got to keep pitching and pushing
what our medium can be.It still aint easy but we will prevail.
Jody Bishel
Otterfire
> and can't be considered art.
>2) Kids enjoy working with polymer clay, so what makes an adult who works
> with an artist?
>3) Polymer clay pieces have no place in a juried art show
>Gotta tell you-they made me very angry.
>I know how many hours I work to improve technique and bring quality to my
>work.
>I also know how many years people in this group and elsewhere have worked
>to
>make polymer clay an accepted art form.
>I live out here in the backwoods where new innovations take awhile to catch
>on
>so am trying to be forgiving, but it's really hard to do.
And baskets are made of wood and wood grows in nature all by its self,,,birds
live in trees so baskets have no place in ajuried show...
or how about quilts are made of old pieces of material, and people dust with
old peices of material so,,,,quilts have no place in a juried show.
COME ON any kid who has EVER had ANY art class LOVES to play with what ever the
teacher has given them, should we limit children in school to doing the string
in glue around a baloon art until they are adults. I wish that people who have
NO clue could just for once not say something stupid, IRENE, i would have gone
nuts!!!!
ShryBailey
I don't want to start a big controversy, but I'd really like to know what the
group feels about some statements made to me recently:
and can't be considered art.
Sherry:
Acrylic paint is plastic, and IT can "be considered art" (depending on how it's
used!) Resin sculptures, Lucite sculptures, and a lot of other things are made
of "plastic", and THEY are considered art. Plastic is not merely the substance
once known for "made in Japan" kinds of kitsch -- and for that matter, "Made
in Japan" means something different now, too!! (In other words, it's not the
substance that counts, it's what you do with it.) Paper, like the kind Da Vinci
drew on is more fragile and "cheap" than pplymer clay, after all!
Irene:
2) Kids enjoy working with polymer clay, so what makes an adult who works
with an artist?
Sherry:
Kids love earth clay, too -- but ceramicists and sculptors are still artists.
Kids basically enjoy all art materials, but that has little to do with adult
art, or especially with adult art achievement.
Irene:
3) Polymer clay pieces have no place in a juried art show
Sherry:
Some do, some don't, just like in every other medium. (I suspect tthey can't
give you REASONS for this opinion aside from personal bigotry against
the material!)
Irene:
Gotta tell you-they made me very angry.
I know how many hours I work to improve technique and bring quality to my
work.
I also know how many years people in this group and elsewhere have worked
to
make polymer clay an accepted art form.
I live out here in the backwoods where new innovations take awhile to catch
on
so am trying to be forgiving, but it's really hard to do.
Irene in Wi. (who is getting ready for her first juried show)
Sherry:
Well, you just have to educate them then... this is exactly the kind of
thinking
that got the previous discussions of art vs. craft and related philosophy going
in the first place. It happened to acrylic paint when it first came out, too --
not an "old master" art material, therefore suspect. It was accepted
eventually,
and polymer clay will be too, I think, but only if we continue to enlighten
people and make things that are obviously art form it!
Good luck with the jurying, and no matter how it goes, bear in mind that any
jury is only one person's (or a small committee's) opinion -- sometimes they
are good, sometimes they are bad, but you can't let it inflate your ego or ruin
your day, either way!! (I think sometimes people take jurying too seriously. I
have helped jurors with the grunt work, and I know how it can go -- and how
basically meaningless the process can be!) Still, it IS fun to get into a
juried
show, so I hope you do!
Sherry
LOIS0MY
Polymer Clay Guild magazine ), there is a wonderful article by Tory Hughes who
addresses exactly this. I can't do the article justice so I won't try! But
after reading her thoughts on the subject, I don't believe I'll ever care how
others try to classify the medium .......because as she states; " There is
room enough for both " !!!
She shares alot of wisdom in these two pages; I recommend the article for
anyone who works ( or plays ) with polymer clay...... Lois Ockner
Echo 01
that makes a work art, It is the interpatation of an idea by the artest, and
then the interpatation of the work by the viewer that determines what is art.
I have seen all to many recycled parts attached together in assorted ways to
even bother to argue what materials are required to be art. Some works will
last nearly for ever and then others are mearly a fleeting thing. i.e. is a
long row of flags in the country a work of art? someone thought it was and even
wrote it up in several magazines.
No the terms 'ART' and 'ARTEST' are as subjunctive as 'LOVE' and 'LOVER'.
Lysle
Mamadude
Arbor Artfest. If she doesn't make "art" I don't know who does.
>An Ornament magazine or two with the pages earmarked at Dustin's stuff. . ."
P D RUSS
I went to a huge juried art show today and saw one poly clay doll maker and a
several poly clay jewlry makers.
There were probably more there but it was so crowded I didn't get to all the
booths.
Dianne >^..^<
Jacksonville, FL
http://members.aol.com/pdruss/index.html
Pörrö Törrönen
>1) Polymer clay is plastic so anything made out of it is cheap stuff
> and can't be considered art.
Exactly so. And so is most of the modern art. Talk about Andy Warhol and
those soup cans... Sight. Or what about those performing artists ? Or those
horrible ones that hang pieces of newspaper from clothes-line to respectful
galleries ? Absolutely, the price of the material is essential point when
deciding what is art. BTW, do you know that earthen clay is the cheapest
sculpting material there is ? (And really, do you know it sometimes can be
found from DRAINS ? )
>2) Kids enjoy working with polymer clay, so what makes an adult who works
> with an artist?
Oh, how right you are again ! I have always thought that kids should be the
meter of whether the adult is artist or not. If kids enjoy something it
definitely is not worth anything. Art has to be non- enjoyable and non-
reachable. Come to think of it we should hide all the art materials from
kids just to be sure they don´t create anything... And honestly, I think
most polyclay artist actually enjoy claying. That is so good reason to
decide polyclay is not art !
>3) Polymer clay pieces have no place in a juried art show
Of course not. Or anything that has gray color in it (it so common, don´t
you think ?). Always judge art by the medium, that way you never have to
see anything new. I am so glad your judgmentalism prevents me to make the
error of my life by actually trying to achieve something...
(Just kidding people. This is irony. At least I thought so when writing
this)
Irene,
You make the standards to yourself. You reach for the quality you are
setting to yourself. As long as you are satisfied with the art you are
making, even the most craft- hostile- area can not hurt you. One part of
being an artist is learning to ignore this kind of idiotic critic. People
are ignorant and they like to push you down, but you don´t have to be nice
and easy to stamp on. You have the right, no- the duty-, to be proud of
what you do. No matter what these people say. And this, as all the wise
things, is more easily said than done ;-)
Good luck to your show. Let´s hope you get jury that has had some polyclay
education from reading the right magazines. And let´s hope your work is
just what they are looking for. Let us know how you made !
PöRRö
--
If I would have to choose between polyclay and chocolate
I would take polyclay.
Byrd Tetzlaff
includes plastics. It's just snobbery to doscount a medium because you
don't understand it.
2) children are given watercolor sets when they are very young--should
we outlaw watercolor from art shows? Some children draw with
pencils--should pencil drawings be eliminated from compitition?
3) I have been in juried shows and gotten in with polymer clay when my
'regular' art couldn't make it. Art is art. You like the particular
piece or you don't. Those folks who don't want polymer clay in the show
probably would have dis-allowed Piccaso and Van Gogh because they were
too outrageous. Remeber, too, there is a large school of thought that
says that all representational art is bunk, because it has all been done
before--well guess what? Polymer art is NEW, HASN'T BEEN DONE BEFORE!!
We are exploring new territory, BUT IT'S STILL ART IF WE TREAT IT AS
SUCH!!!!
Sorry, that's obviously a sore spot with me. Not too long ago, I was
showing a bust I had made at my local Art guild, and a fellow artist
remarked, "Oh, it's such a fine piece. Too bad you didn't use REAL
clay."
-Byrd
P.S. I wish I had known you when I lived in Wi.
P & I
6 days 'til show time. I'm now better able to deal with the prejudices
of the uneducated.Thanks to everyone who shared their ideas and experiences
on this problem.
Right now, I don't care if I win any prizes, I am just going to create
some awareness
of polymer clay as an art form. I look forward to showing people that there
is more
to this medium than packaged beads and pre-made canes.
I'll report the results next week.
Irene in Wi.
>
Patti Kimle
Iowa is sort of behind on things too. Many don't know what polymer clay
is. So when I enter shows, I often include a brief statement about what
polymer clay is, how it can be worked, etc. Don't know if this ever gets shown
to the jurors as it is not a thing usually asked for with the slides and app.
form, but I try to educate when I can.
Who made these statements to you? If it were a person you know, ie.
friend, then I can see where you'd be hurt. But with strangers, I usually just
try to educate if I can and if that doesn't work, it's their loss.
As someone here said before, kids also use pencils and watercolors. That
doesn't mean an adult watercolorist's work is invalid.
Don't tell the juror at the show I just had a vessel accepted into that it
doesn't belong there. He/she thought it did and it made my day!
I understand your frustration. I figure fighting to be recognized is the
trade off we face for having such a wonderful medium to work in. (imagine my
Catholic mother here saying something about having to earn your pearls in
heaven)
Hope it helps to know you're not alone.
Patti
P & I wrote:
> I don't want to start a big controversy, but I'd really like to know what
> the
> group feels about some statements made to me recently:
> 1) Polymer clay is plastic so anything made out of it is cheap stuff
> and can't be considered art.
> 2) Kids enjoy working with polymer clay, so what makes an adult who works
> with an artist?
> 3) Polymer clay pieces have no place in a juried art show
scott & irene
> polymer clay is, how it can be worked, etc. Don't know if this ever gets
shown
> to the jurors as it is not a thing usually asked for with the slides and
app.
> form, but I try to educate when I can.
I include a brief statement about what polymer clay is and a description
of a few techniques as the first three paragraphs of my biography, which I
include with every show application. I attach my jury/application fee
check to this piece of paper so I know it at least gets unfolded, if not
read completely!
(the Other) Irene, in NC
J J J Jami
po...@online.tietokone.fi (Pörrö Törrönen) writes:
>Oh, how right you are again ! I have always thought that kids should be the
>meter of whether the adult is artist or not. If kids enjoy something it
>definitely is not worth anything. Art has to be non- enjoyable and non-
>reachable. Come to think of it we should hide all the art materials from
>kids just to be sure they don´t create anything... And honestly, I think
>most polyclay artist actually enjoy claying. That is so good reason to
>decide polyclay is not art !
ROTFLMAO, oh Porro I think you have nailed this one quite nicely.
Jami Miller
spi...@my-dejanews.com
otte...@aol.com (Otterfire) wrote:
> >1) Polymer clay is plastic so anything made out of it is cheap stuff
> > and can't be considered art.
> >2) Kids enjoy working with polymer clay, so what makes an adult who works
> > with an artist?
> >3) Polymer clay pieces have no place in a juried art show
> >Gotta tell you-they made me very angry.
> >I know how many hours I work to improve technique and bring quality to my
> >work.
> >I also know how many years people in this group and elsewhere have worked
> >to
> >make polymer clay an accepted art form.
> >I live out here in the backwoods where new innovations take awhile to catch
> >on
> >so am trying to be forgiving, but it's really hard to do.
>
> live in trees so baskets have no place in ajuried show...
>
> or how about quilts are made of old pieces of material, and people dust with
> old peices of material so,,,,quilts have no place in a juried show.
>
> COME ON any kid who has EVER had ANY art class LOVES to play with what ever
the
> teacher has given them, should we limit children in school to doing the string
> in glue around a baloon art until they are adults. I wish that people who
have
> NO clue could just for once not say something stupid, IRENE, i would have gone
> nuts!!!!
>
Some quilts should definitely be alowed and encouraged in juried shows. It
occures to me that the topic for discussion would more properly be 'what is
art' Anything that i can create that is unique and which you want to
see/experience, is probably "Art"
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of a creative nature done by men while "crafts" has been unsed to describe
enterprises of a creative nature done by women (with the exception of the
"gulided crafts"). Hence quilting, which is clearly an art is called a craft
and pigmented oil on canvas - no matter how many times the same image is
painted - is art.
I think art and craft should be distinguished by production numbers. The first
is clearly art, after one has made 50 or so of the same design, it is probably
a craft.
Sonja
Echo 01
Where as a craft is something that is done repeatedly yousing your skills as a
craftperson to repet and/or duplicate.
Lysle 'I say I am an artest at beginner level -2) Shields