Wage Strikes Planned at Fast-Food Outlets

[jon_banquer]

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/02/business/economy/wage-strikes-planned-at-fast-food-outlets-in-100-cities.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0

"Seeking to increase pressure on McDonald’s, Wendy’s and other fast-food restaurants, organizers of a movement demanding a $15-an-hour wage for fast-food workers say they will sponsor one-day strikes in 100 cities on Thursday and protest activities in 100 additional cities.

As the movement struggles to find pressure points in its quest for substantially higher wages for workers, organizers said strikes were planned for the first time in cities like Charleston, S.C.; Providence, R.I.; and Pittsburgh.

The protests have expanded greatly since November 2012, when 200 fast-food workers engaged in a one-day strike at more than 20 restaurants in New York City, the first such walkout in the history of the nation’s fast-food industry.

“There’s been pretty huge growth in one year,” said Kendall Fells, one of the movement’s main organizers. “People understand that a one-day strike is not going to get them there. They understand that this needs to continue to grow.”

The movement, which includes the groups Fast Food Forward and Fight for 15, is part of a growing union-backed effort by low-paid workers — including many Walmart workers and workers for federal contractors — that seeks to focus attention on what the groups say are inadequate wages.

The fast-food effort is backed by the Service Employees International Union and is also demanding that restaurants allow workers to unionize without the threat of retaliation.

Officials with the National Restaurant Association have said the one-day strikes are publicity stunts. They warn that increasing pay to $15 an hour when the federal minimum wage is $7.25 would cause restaurants to rely more on automation and hire fewer workers.

Industry officials say that only a small percentage of fast-food jobs pay the minimum wage and that those are largely entry-level jobs for workers under 25.

Backers of the movement for higher pay point to studies saying that the average age of fast-food workers is 29 and that more than one-fourth are parents raising children.

Simon Rojas, who earns $8.07 an hour working at a McDonald’s in South Central Los Angeles, said he would join Thursday’s one-day strike.

“It’s very difficult to live off $8.07 an hour,” said Mr. Rojas, 23, noting that he is often assigned just 20 or 25 hours of work a week. “I have to live with my parents. I would like to be able to afford a car and an apartment.”

Mr. Rojas said he had studied for a pharmacy technician’s certificate, but he had been unable to save the $100 needed to apply for a license.

On Aug. 29, fast-food strikes took place in more than 50 cities. This week’s expanded protests will be joined by numerous community, faith and student groups, including USAction and United Students against Sweatshops."

[Howard Beal]

"jon_banquer" <jonba...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f8d2c710-72a3-40e0...@googlegroups.com...

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/02/business/economy/wage-strikes-planned-at-fast-food-outlets-in-100-cities.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0

"Seeking to increase pressure on McDonald�s, Wendy�s and other fast-food
restaurants, organizers of a movement demanding a $15-an-hour wage for
fast-food workers say they will sponsor one-day strikes in 100 cities on
Thursday and protest activities in 100 additional cities.

Good, america will be healthier if fast food is shut down,
detox, get healthy, lose weight, live long and prosper.

Best Regards.
Tom.

[F. George McDuffee]

On Mon, 2 Dec 2013 23:27:57 -0800 (PST), jon_banquer
<jonba...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Officials with the National Restaurant Association have said the one-day
>strikes are publicity stunts. They warn that increasing pay to $15 an hour
>when the federal minimum wage is $7.25 would cause restaurants to rely more
>on automation and hire fewer workers.
>
>Industry officials say that only a small percentage of fast-food jobs pay
>the minimum wage and that those are largely entry-level jobs for workers
>under 25.

========================

This bourgeoisie B/S goes back to at least the gilded age*
of Hanna/McKinley and the robber barons when the workers at
last began to unionize and push back. The only thing missing
is blaming "outside agitators" for stirring up trouble among
the contented masses on the plantation.

It is highly dangerous delusion and rationalization, and an
insult to anyone who has studied history**.

From the gilded age:
�The rights and interests of the laboring man will be
protected and cared for�not by the labor agitators, but by
the Christian men to who God in His infinite wisdom has
given the control of the property interests of this country.
. .�
George F. Baker of Philadelphia and Reading Coal & Iron
July 1 1902
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Fisher_Baker
http://archive.org/stream/yearsofplunderfi00hansrich/yearsofplunderfi00hansrich_djvu.txt

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilded_Age

**
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_history_of_the_United_States

[John B.]

On Mon, 2 Dec 2013 23:50:00 -0800, "Howard Beal" <H.b...@network.com>
wrote:

15$ an hour to say, "With Fries Sir?"
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Ignoramus19407]

My prediction: in 15 years, the average number of employees at a
McDonalds fast food restaurant will be between 1 and 2. Everything
else will be automated. There is no reason to have so many people
there working.

i

[Larry Jaques]

On Mon, 2 Dec 2013 23:50:00 -0800, "Howard Beal" <H.b...@network.com>
wrote:

>

Yeah, just like cigarette taxes forced the massed to quit.
Uh, huh.

Taco Bell is the only civilized fast-food place to eat, and it's
cheap, now. I wonder what a taco will cost when wages are doubled...

P.S: TB is high in sodium but lower in fat and cholesterol than any of
the other restaurants, and tacos are pretty well balanced meal, with
greens, cheese, meat, and carbs.

--
Just as a picture is drawn by an artist, surroundings
are created by the activities of the mind.

[Larry Jaques]

Absolutely. My buddy in LoCal is automating factories all around
Sandy Eggo county now. He's done hard candy factories, chocolate
factories, digital embroidery factories, and is now working (for the
past 6 months) on a soap factory automation scheme. He says the
average loss of employees is over 50%, with some at 90%. One guy
receives shipping and loads the hoppers, and presses the GO button
while the other guy stacks boxed product, ships stuff out, and answers
the phone.

Fast food will come entirely premade with none of this silly "Have It
Your Way" crap to interfere with the profits. It's not like the fast
food addicts will have any say, just as smokers don't have any say as
to the 140 different chemicals, pesticides, and known carcinogens used
on their tobacco. Viva Monsanto! <cringe>

[Jim Wilkins]

"Larry Jaques" <lja...@invalid.diversifycomm.com> wrote in message
news:nuur995fkdo1cnqee...@4ax.com...

>
> Fast food will come entirely premade with none of this silly "Have
> It
> Your Way" crap to interfere with the profits. It's not like the fast
> food addicts will have any say, just as smokers don't have any say
> as
> to the 140 different chemicals, pesticides, and known carcinogens
> used
> on their tobacco. Viva Monsanto! <cringe>

Premade fast food has been around for a while, as White Castle and
AdvancePierre frozen burgers in the grocery store.
http://www.advancepierre.com/Divisions/Foodservice.aspx

[Gunner Asch]

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 08:36:12 -0600, F. George McDuffee
<gmcd...@mcduffee-associates.us> wrote:

>On Mon, 2 Dec 2013 23:27:57 -0800 (PST), jon_banquer
><jonba...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>Officials with the National Restaurant Association have said the one-day
>>strikes are publicity stunts. They warn that increasing pay to $15 an hour
>>when the federal minimum wage is $7.25 would cause restaurants to rely more
>>on automation and hire fewer workers.
>>
>>Industry officials say that only a small percentage of fast-food jobs pay
>>the minimum wage and that those are largely entry-level jobs for workers
>>under 25.
>========================
>
>This bourgeoisie B/S goes back to at least the gilded age*
>of Hanna/McKinley and the robber barons when the workers at
>last began to unionize and push back. The only thing missing
>is blaming "outside agitators" for stirring up trouble among
>the contented masses on the plantation.

Would that be like having union members who dont work for the picketed
store/business/restaurant outside picketing and claiming to be
employees of said business?

>
>It is highly dangerous delusion and rationalization, and an
>insult to anyone who has studied history**.
>
>From the gilded age:
>�The rights and interests of the laboring man will be
>protected and cared for�not by the labor agitators, but by
>the Christian men to who God in His infinite wisdom has
>given the control of the property interests of this country.
>. .�
>George F. Baker of Philadelphia and Reading Coal & Iron
>July 1 1902
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Fisher_Baker
>http://archive.org/stream/yearsofplunderfi00hansrich/yearsofplunderfi00hansrich_djvu.txt
>
>* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilded_Age
>
>**
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_history_of_the_United_States
>
>

--
"Owning a sailboat is like marrying a nymphomaniac. You don�t want to do that
but it is great if your best friend does. That way you get all the benefits without any of the upkeep"

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

[mike]

that's just silly.
Wages are determined by supply and demand.
Businesses raise wages until they get all the jobs filled.
As long as immigrants, legal or illegal, feel that they're
better off at McDonalds than their previous job, the wages
wont' rise.
Artificially forcing wages to rise just attracts more
people from lower wage jobs.
And it raises prices so the people whose jobs have been
taken can't afford 'em.

People come here for a better life, take American jobs,
then bitch that it's
not better enough. Send 'em back to their own
country so we can recover this one.
Supply and demand will fix it.

If you can't live on McDonalds wages, you have the wrong job.
I'm unwilling to pay $20 for a burger so you can have a car.
And I'm really annoyed that I have to learn Spanish so I
can have it my way.

[dca...@krl.org]

On Tuesday, December 3, 2013 10:49:56 AM UTC-5, Larry Jaques wrote:



>
> Fast food will come entirely premade with none of this silly "Have It
>
> Your Way" crap to interfere with the profits.

I think you are wrong. I think you will be able to place your order via your phone and have it made exactly how you like it as well as have it timed so it is ready about 30 seconds after you arrive. Should be no problem to have a program that will custom cook burgers and have them hot off the grill at any specified time.

Dan

[dca...@krl.org]

On Tuesday, December 3, 2013 9:36:12 AM UTC-5, F. George McDuffee wrote:

>
> This bourgeoisie B/S goes back to at least the gilded age*
>
> of Hanna/McKinley and the robber barons when the workers at
>
> last began to unionize and push back. The only thing missing
>
> is blaming "outside agitators" for stirring up trouble among
>
> the contented masses on the plantation.
>
>
>
> It is highly dangerous delusion and rationalization, and an
>
> insult to anyone who has studied history**.
>
>

I think your statement is an insult to anyone who has taken Economics in college. One of the basic tenants is that if you raise the price of something there is less demand for it. ie If you raise the cost of labor, there will be less demand for labor.

If raising the minimum wage to $15 / hour is good, why is raising it to $100 an hour bad? The answer is that the effects of raising the minimum wage are obvious if you raise it to $100 / hour.

[Rudy Canoza]

On 12/3/2013 12:08 PM, dca...@krl.org wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 3, 2013 9:36:12 AM UTC-5, F. George McDuffee wrote:
>
>>
>> This bourgeoisie B/S goes back to at least the gilded age*
>>
>> of Hanna/McKinley and the robber barons when the workers at
>>
>> last began to unionize and push back. The only thing missing
>>
>> is blaming "outside agitators" for stirring up trouble among
>>
>> the contented masses on the plantation.
>>
>>
>>
>> It is highly dangerous delusion and rationalization, and an
>>
>> insult to anyone who has studied history**.
>>
>>
> I think your statement is an insult to anyone who has taken Economics in college. One of the basic tenants is that if you raise the price of something there is less demand for it. ie If you raise the cost of labor, there will be less demand for labor.

Economics distinguishes between movement along the demand curve and a
shift or movement *of* the demand curve. Artificially rigging the price
at which something must be sold is a shift upward of the supply curve;
the demand curve is left unchanged. See
https://courses.byui.edu/econ_150/econ_150_old_site/images/3-3%20Equilbrium_08.jpg

The result of such an arbitrary price increase is a *lower* quantity
demanded, at a *higher* price. If we're talking about labor, the
quantity of labor consumed by firms will fall - employment will be lower.

It's an important distinction. A change in demand means a shift in the
demand curve, i.e., at any given price, a different quantity is
demanded. That's not what happens with the imposition of a minimum
wage; that shifts the supply curve.

>
> If raising the minimum wage to $15 / hour is good, why is raising it to $100 an hour bad? The answer is that the effects of raising the minimum wage are obvious if you raise it to $100 / hour.

That's a question that the leftists just can't answer. They *insist*
that raising the minimum wage has no effect on the quantity of labor,
i.e. the amount of employment. If that's the case, then why would the
stop at such a niggardly amount as $15? Why not make it $100? $500?
$5,000? The answer is, they know they're completely full of shit.
Raising the price of something reduces the quantity bought - period.

[Ignoramus19407]

On 2013-12-03, Larry Jaques <lja...@invalid.diversifycomm.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 08:54:01 -0600, Ignoramus19407
><ignoram...@NOSPAM.19407.invalid> wrote:
>
>>My prediction: in 15 years, the average number of employees at a
>>McDonalds fast food restaurant will be between 1 and 2. Everything
>>else will be automated. There is no reason to have so many people
>>there working.
>
> Absolutely. My buddy in LoCal is automating factories all around
> Sandy Eggo county now. He's done hard candy factories, chocolate
> factories, digital embroidery factories, and is now working (for the
> past 6 months) on a soap factory automation scheme. He says the
> average loss of employees is over 50%, with some at 90%. One guy
> receives shipping and loads the hoppers, and presses the GO button
> while the other guy stacks boxed product, ships stuff out, and answers
> the phone.

I agree up to here.

> Fast food will come entirely premade with none of this silly "Have
> It Your Way" crap to interfere with the profits. It's not like the
> fast food addicts will have any say, just as smokers don't have any
> say as to the 140 different chemicals, pesticides, and known
> carcinogens used on their tobacco. Viva Monsanto! <cringe>

Not true. With an automated burger line, you can order your food the
way you like, with extra ketchup, cheese or whatever, and the machine
will not forget and mess up the order like people do.

i

[F. George McDuffee]

rec.bicycles.tech and ,can.politics pruned from distro to
meet isp limits

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 12:22:06 -0800, Rudy Canoza
<LaLaLa...@philhendrie.con> wrote:

<snip>

>> If raising the minimum wage to $15 / hour is good, why is raising it to $100 an hour bad? The answer is that the effects of raising the minimum wage are obvious if you raise it to $100 / hour.
>
>That's a question that the leftists just can't answer. They *insist*
>that raising the minimum wage has no effect on the quantity of labor,
>i.e. the amount of employment. If that's the case, then why would the
>stop at such a niggardly amount as $15? Why not make it $100? $500?
>$5,000? The answer is, they know they're completely full of shit.
>Raising the price of something reduces the quantity bought - period.

================

{Jon, this is largely a straw man argument.}

This is one perspective. The other perspective is that all
of the taxpayers are currently subsidizing this cheap labor
through SNAP/food stamps, medicaid/mediCAL, subsidized
housing, etc.

Raising the minimum wage to a point where most social
services/safety net are no longer required will force the
labor costs back onto the for-profit company books where
these belong, preventing them from externalizing this cost
to society and the general taxpayer. From a Darwinian
viewpoint, if the companies can't make it without their
covert labor subsidy, so sad -- too bad. This is
Schumpter's "creative destruction*" in action, and their
successors/replacements will be able to pay their full labor
costs (or go out of business in turn).

Why should people who do not patronize an establishment be
expected to subsidize their labor costs through higher
taxes?

One way to partially level the playing field for companies
that do pay a living wage, is to require their cheap-screw
competitors to pay the employer's 7.5% FICA tax on the value
of the taxpayer funded "safety net" benefits their employees
receive due to their low wages. As everything now uses the
SSN as a universal identifier, it should be no great problem
to collect the data in a common format, sent to the IRS/SSA,
correlate, and bill the cheap-screws.

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_destruction

[F. George McDuffee]

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 11:22:47 -0800, mike
<ham...@netzero.net> wrote:

<snip>

>Wages are determined by supply and demand.
>Businesses raise wages until they get all the jobs filled.
>As long as immigrants, legal or illegal, feel that they're
>better off at McDonalds than their previous job, the wages
>wont' rise.

<snip>

Thanks for the explication/demonstration of how
unrestricted/illegal immigration "short-circuits" the tacit
assumptions required for the "free market" and law of supply
and demand to benignly / productively operate, as envisioned
by the neo-cons and "Washington Consensus" fanatics, but
which operationally results in a Kamikaze race to the
bottom. FWIW -- this also applies for the higher paying
jobs such as programmers and engineers, e.g. H1b.

[First-Post]

And after you raise everyone to making a minimum of $15 an hour you
really believe that it won't affect the price of goods and services?
When it got raised to $7.25 the cost of patronizing, for example, fast
food establishments increased proportionately. Hell the price of
nearly everything increased proportionately due to the domino effect,
particularly those that were making a little more than the new
minimum.

When the government sticks it's fingers into the mix the end result is
almost always more pain for the general public.
What used to cost around $5 at say, Wendy's now costs just over $7.
So are you going to patronize any of the places most affected by a $15
minimum wage after they raise their prices accordingly?
If you aren't willing to practice what you preach and pay, for
example, $12 or more for your kid to have a happy meal then you are
simply a hypocrite.

[Eddie Haskell]

"F. George McDuffee" <gmcd...@mcduffee-associates.us> wrote in message
news:dtgs99p32dn6lvtd8...@4ax.com...

If you raise the minimum wage and reduce employment you have done nothing to
increase revenues. Tried, old, socialist argument shot dead in the road.
Phase II: Tell me that I don't know what socialism means. It's all right
there in the manual.

-Eddie Haskell

[Ignoramus19407]

I do not think that a McDonalds franchisee can hire an illegal
immigrant.

Additionally, illegal immigrants are people too and they need to eat.

i

[F. George McDuffee]

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 17:11:13 -0600, First-Post
<AIOE_posters_...@AIOE.org> wrote:

<snip>

>And after you raise everyone to making a minimum of $15 an hour you
>really believe that it won't affect the price of goods and services?

<snip>

The entire point of my post is that we are already paying
15$/hr (or more). The employer pays part, and the rest is
paid by local, state and federal taxes in the form of SNAP,
Mediaid, subsidized housing, etc.

As a conservative, I want the "free market" to work, but it
can't as long as some employers have a significant fraction
of their labor costs subsidized. FWIW -- there are now so
many tax preferences, abatements, deductions, and credits,
it is very difficult to determine the total cost of
anything. This "blinds" the market as cost comparison is
impossible.

Thus it would seem that both the progressives and neo-cons
should be in favor of forcing labor (and many other) costs
back on to the company books, albeit for different reasons.

The worst person to lie to is yourself...

[Scout]

"First-Post" <AIOE_posters_...@AIOE.org> wrote in message
news:8qos9958trplgg756...@4ax.com...

And let's note that not everyone's pay increases......If you bump minimum
wage to $15...the person making $16 isn't going to get a raise, and the
price increases will effectively cut their effective pay.

Yep, all you do is make more people poorer.

[First-Post]

Just like Obamacare coincidentally.

>
>Yep, all you do is make more people poorer.
>

Indeed.

People today getting $7.25 an hour fair worse than we did in the mid
70s when the minimum was $1.99 an hour.
Historically every time the government has increased the minimum wage
by any substantial amount, all it did was boost inflation a bit faster
and the people ended up being no better off than they were before.
And, as implied by your statment, pushed more people down in their
quality of living rather than increased anyone's quality of life.

[Gunner Asch]

Really? Then you havent been in So Cal.

>
>Additionally, illegal immigrants are people too and they need to eat.
>
>i

So let them eat back in their home countries.

[Larry Jaques]

Yabbut, at which _drive-thru_ can you buy one?

[Larry Jaques]

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 17:14:14 -0600, Ignoramus19407
<ignoram...@NOSPAM.19407.invalid> wrote:

Some franchises probably would if they could get away with it.

>Additionally, illegal immigrants are people too and they need to eat.

Not HERE they don't, damnit! They can get legal or get lost. <mumble,
mumble> LEGAL immigrants can eat here all they please.

[dca...@krl.org]

On Tuesday, December 3, 2013 4:19:21 PM UTC-5, F. George McDuffee wrote:




> This is one perspective. The other perspective is that all
>
> of the taxpayers are currently subsidizing this cheap labor
>
> through SNAP/food stamps, medicaid/mediCAL, subsidized
>
> housing, etc.
>
>
>
> Raising the minimum wage to a point where most social
>
> services/safety net are no longer required will force the
>
> labor costs back onto the for-profit company books where
>
> these belong, preventing them from externalizing this cost
>
> to society and the general taxpayer. From a Darwinian
>
> viewpoint, if the companies can't make it without their
>
> covert labor subsidy, so sad -- too bad. This is
>
> Schumpter's "creative destruction*" in action, and their
>
> successors/replacements will be able to pay their full labor
>
> costs (or go out of business in turn).
>
>

It will not happen as you think it will. The companies will automate and reduce the number of employees. So more people will be without a job and the costs will increase for the general tax payer and society.

Have you looked at steel mills recently? Nucor runs their West Seattle mill with less than 20 people per shift. When I toured it, they were making rebar. Every thing was automated including the bundling of the finished rebar and tying the bundles with wire. There are no minimum wage jobs at the steel mill. The average wage was about $80,000 a few years back. The creative destruction has resulted in lower labor costs because there are fewer workers..

They have two plants that make fasteners. The grave yard shift runs with no employees on site.

Machine shops are also automated and have no minimum wage workers.

It costs society less to have people working and subsidising them. The alternative is to not have people working and have society pay all their expenses.

Dan

[dca...@krl.org]

On Tuesday, December 3, 2013 7:40:32 PM UTC-5, F. George McDuffee wrote:

>
> The entire point of my post is that we are already paying
>
> 15$/hr (or more). The employer pays part, and the rest is
>
> paid by local, state and federal taxes in the form of SNAP,
>
> Mediaid, subsidized housing, etc.
>
>

But people are employed. The alternative is to not have people work and pay all of the costs from local , state , and federal taxes.

>

>
> Thus it would seem that both the progressives and neo-cons
>
> should be in favor of forcing labor (and many other) costs
>
> back on to the company books, albeit for different reasons.
>
>
>
> The worst person to lie to is yourself...

You are lying to yourself when you think that raising the minimum wage will reduce the cost to society. It will raise the cost to society by reducing the number of workers.
Dan

[John B.]

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 08:54:01 -0600, Ignoramus19407
<ignoram...@NOSPAM.19407.invalid> wrote:

In Singapore McDonalds hires retired people and has variable shifts so
that they can pretty much work when they want to. I talked to one
elderly woman working on the counter and she told me that she was
retired and really liked McDonalds as they let her work 4 hours a day,
3 days a week.

Singapore has no minimum wage law and I suppose that these old people
were paid less than someone supporting a family but the point is that
they liked to work there and appeared to be happy with the pay.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Howard Beal]

<dca...@krl.org> wrote in message
news:c90ab98e-5243-4151...@googlegroups.com...

Automation will advance regardless of what the minimum wage is. In the very
near future many manual
labor jobs will become obsolete, remember meter readers? The big question
that no one has an answer
for is what will all the displaced under educated workers do to earn a
living. The cost to society will be
great.

Best Regards.
Tom.

[John B.]

Sort of like a cheeseburger with lettuce and tomato with a side of
fries?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

But one of the major reasons for the U.S. encouraging immigration was
to have a source of low paid labor. Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire,
for example killed 146 people, mainly immigrants, the canals and
railroads were built with, largely, Irish immigrant workers.

In addition, mandating wages based on local conditions effects
international trade to the extent that I can think of no product
actually manufactured in the U.S. that is sold here in Thailand.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Gunner Asch]

On Tue, 3 Dec 2013 20:07:46 -0800, "Howard Beal" <H.b...@network.com>
wrote:

>

This has happened repeatedly throughout history..and many times since
the Industrial Revolution. Learn a new trade..or go down with the
ship.

I started fixing machine tools in machine shops in the mid 1990s.
Most..not all..but most machine shops had a majority of manual
machines. You had to turn cranks and read dials and know what the fuck
you were doing to make parts. We started putting very affordable small
CNC lathes in..and some machinists refuse to learn to run and program
them. They were the first to go when their manual machines were sold.
The smart ones..learned to program and run their new CNC lathes. They
did very well financially.

It happened with the buggy whip makers etc etc etc.

The Luddites and the Wobblies are examples of what will happen when
things get desperate.....

[F. George McDuffee]

follow-up to my own post

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 18:40:32 -0600, F. George McDuffee
<gmcd...@mcduffee-associates.us> wrote:

>FWIW -- there are now so
>many tax preferences, abatements, deductions, and credits,
>it is very difficult to determine the total cost of
>anything. This "blinds" the market as cost comparison is
>impossible.

This just in, showing how even the largest US corporations
extort subsidies, and how this accelerates the kamikaze race
to the bottom, where the winners crash and burn *FIRST*.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-12-04/boeing-tantalizes-governors-bidding-for-777x-production.html
<snip>
Governors of more than a dozen states are rushing to offer
incentives such as subsidized training and infrastructure to
convince Boeing Co. (BA) to move production of its new 777X
jetliner out of Washington, where union members rejected a
labor contract that froze pensions.

Missouri Governor Jay Nixon and Alabama Governor Robert
Bentley are joining leaders pulling together packages to
lure thousands of jobs away from Everett, Washington, ahead
of a Dec. 10 deadline for proposals set by the Chicago-based
planemaker.
<snip>

FWIW -- One possible way to stop this extortion is to impose
a 111% tax on the total (not net) value of these subsidies
at the federal level, not subject to any tax preference
offsets, with the revenue dedicated to employee retraining
and unemployment compensation.

[Rudy Canoza]

On 12/3/2013 4:40 PM, F. George McDumpster lied:

> On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 17:11:13 -0600, First-Post
> <AIOE_posters_...@AIOE.org> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>> And after you raise everyone to making a minimum of $15 an hour you
>> really believe that it won't affect the price of goods and services?
> <snip>
>
> The entire point of my post

your turgid lie

> is that we are already paying
> 15$/hr (or more).

No, we're not. Most minimum and sub-minimum wage workers do not receive
dole benefits.

[Rudy Canoza]

On 12/3/2013 12:08 PM, dca...@krl.org wrote:

http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/breaking-the-law-of-demand#axzz2mXc5IOdb
http://www.cnn.com/2011/09/16/opinion/saltsman-minimum-wage/


The Card & Krueger study had shitty data. Real data collected over a
longer term shows that increases in min. wage reduce employment.

Also, Card & Krueger made one huge error. They looked at the number of
people with fast food jobs, which went up slightly in NJ following that
state's small min. wage increase. What they should have looked at is
number of hours worked. That went down - in *total*. In other words,
consistent with demand theory, increasing the price reduced the amount
purchased.

Finally, the NJ min. wage increase was $.80 per hour, from $4.25 to
$5.05, or just under 19%. The "wages strike" is calling for an increase
in the federal min. wage from its current level of $7.25 to (at least)
$15. That's an increase of $7.75, or almost 107%.

No one in his right mind thinks that won't have a disemployment effect.
Many people will lose their jobs; others will see their hours
drastically cut; and many people who might have got jobs at the old rate
will see all prospects of employment evaporate.

The ignorant blabber - lies and sophistry - about how we're "already"
paying $15 an hour for unskilled workers is both false and misses the
point. First of all, it is very well documented that most min. wage
workers are young people still living with their parents. They're not
receiving dole benefits. Secondly, even if there were a lot of public
welfare expenditures on min. wage workers, such that their employers are
paying half their income and dole benefits comprise the other half, to
the extent employment will fall drastically among that segment, public
expenditure would *increase*, because they then wouldn't be earning
anything from private employment.

The min. wage destroys employment - predicted by theory, confirmed
empirically.

[jon_banquer]

On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 1:30:39 PM UTC-8, Rudy Canoza sock puppet:

> The min. wage destroys employment - predicted by theory, confirmed
>
> empirically.

More bullshit from "Rudy Canoza" a sock puppet for Jonathan Ball of Pasadena, CA

[Ignoramus28714]

On 2013-12-04, Larry Jaques <lja...@invalid.diversifycomm.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 17:14:14 -0600, Ignoramus19407
><ignoram...@NOSPAM.19407.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On 2013-12-03, F George McDuffee <gmcd...@mcduffee-associates.us> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 11:22:47 -0800, mike
>>><ham...@netzero.net> wrote:
>>>
>>><snip>
>>>>Wages are determined by supply and demand.
>>>>Businesses raise wages until they get all the jobs filled.
>>>>As long as immigrants, legal or illegal, feel that they're
>>>>better off at McDonalds than their previous job, the wages
>>>>wont' rise.
>>><snip>
>>>
>>> Thanks for the explication/demonstration of how
>>> unrestricted/illegal immigration "short-circuits" the tacit
>>> assumptions required for the "free market" and law of supply
>>> and demand to benignly / productively operate, as envisioned
>>> by the neo-cons and "Washington Consensus" fanatics, but
>>> which operationally results in a Kamikaze race to the
>>> bottom. FWIW -- this also applies for the higher paying
>>> jobs such as programmers and engineers, e.g. H1b.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>I do not think that a McDonalds franchisee can hire an illegal
>>immigrant.
>
> Some franchises probably would if they could get away with it.

A lot of people could, and do, hire illegal aliens. But a McDonalds
franchisee cannot, they are overseen very heavily.

>
>>Additionally, illegal immigrants are people too and they need to eat.
>
> Not HERE they don't, damnit! They can get legal or get lost. <mumble,
> mumble> LEGAL immigrants can eat here all they please.

But they are people too.

i

[F. George McDuffee]

,rec.bicycles.tech and can.politics, pruned from distro
because of ISP spam limits

On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 13:30:39 -0800, Rudy Canoza
<LaLaLa...@philhendrie.con> wrote:

<snip>

>Real data collected over a
>longer term shows that increases in min. wage reduce employment.

<snip>

While a more limited, nuanced, and qualified statement *MAY*
be correct, such as unemployment by age groups, ethnicity
and gender, this general statement is not supported by the
aggregate historical data going back to 1950, using either
CY [current year] or CPI-U adjusted minimum wage rates and
BLS unemployment data, in that the R-squared correlation is
almost zero.

You do have a point that the target of 15$/hr is a .GT. 100%
jump increase and the historical CY$ increases have been
much less. This suggests it would be prudent to phase the
increase in over several years to avoid unnecessary shock to
the economic system and wage structure.

Given the severe erosive effect of inflation on the un
indexed minimum wage, and the problems excessively low wages
are causing, it would seem reasonable to both increase the
minimum wage in steps and index it using the CPI-U data to
maintain the gains, although IMNSHO, the CPI-U, as presently
calculated, understates the actual inflation rate,
particularly as perceived by the lower income strata as a
significantly higher proportion of their income must be
spent on the most inflation prone areas such as food and
fuel than by the "average" consumer.

If anyone is interested, they can see a regression analysis
at http://mcduffee-associates.us/PE/minwage-inf.xls for the
period July 1950 through March 2010, using MS excel and the
Win-Stat add-in. [will open and display using the free
OpenOffice spreadsheet program]

The highest correlation was between the month-number which
represents the "march of time," which explains about 7% of
the unemployment variation . Neither the CPI-U or CY
minimum wage was significant using the "backward"
independent variable selection procedure, when the
month-number was included.

[dca...@krl.org]

On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 2:56:34 PM UTC-5, F. George McDuffee wrote:


> This just in, showing how even the largest US corporations
>
> extort subsidies, and how this accelerates the kamikaze race
>
> to the bottom, where the winners crash and burn *FIRST*.
>
>

Washington State government is thinking of raising the Washington State minimum wage to $15 an hour. No wonder Boeing is thinking of manufacturing the 777x some place else. They would do that regardless of incentives from different states.

Boeing is smarter than GM. GM thought the car competition in the U.S. was between GM and Ford/ Chrysler. And paying high wages was no problem because Ford and Chrysler would also have to pay high wages. Boeing knows it competition is all airplane manufacturers. Europe, China , Russia, Canada, Brazil. If it wore to stay in Washington State, it would crash and burn.

Dan

[Rudy Canoza]

[followups vandalism repaired]

On 12/4/2013 5:40 PM, F. George McDuffee wrote:
> ,rec.bicycles.tech and can.politics, pruned from distro
> because of ISP spam limits
>
> On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 13:30:39 -0800, Rudy Canoza
> <LaLaLa...@philhendrie.con> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>> Real data collected over a
>> longer term shows that increases in min. wage reduce employment.
> <snip>
>
> While a more limited, nuanced, and qualified statement *MAY*
> be correct, such as unemployment by age groups, ethnicity
> and gender, this general statement is not supported by the
> aggregate historical data going back to 1950

Yes, it is. Increases in the min. wage above the market clearing price
of labor reduce employment - period.

> Given the severe erosive effect of inflation on the un
> indexed minimum wage, and the problems excessively low wages
> are causing,

The erosive effect of inflation is why at present the minimum wage is
not harming employment: it is below the market clearing price of labor.

There is no good reason to have an effective minimum wage. People
agitating for it are looking to improve the employment and wages outcome
of *other* groups, e.g. organized labor, *NOT* those of the supposedly
benefitted class.

[Dhu on Gate]

On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 13:30:39 -0800, Rudy Canoza wrote:

>
> Finally, the NJ min. wage increase was $.80 per hour, from $4.25 to $5.05,
> or just under 19%. The "wages strike" is calling for an increase in the
> federal min. wage from its current level of $7.25 to (at least) $15.
> That's an increase of $7.75, or almost 107%.
>

Yup. Raise the MinWage and you WILL see a reduction in the amount of
"Junk Work" being done, the kind that no one cares enough about to see
done right. Can't see how that's a problem.

Dhu



--
Ne obliviscaris, vix ea nostra voco.

[Rudy Canoza]

Yeah, throwing people who were earning money to pay a lot of their own
way in life out of work so you can pat yourself on the back isn't much
of a problem, is it?

[Eddie Haskell]

"Rudy Canoza" <LaLaLa...@philhendrie.con> wrote in message
news:457bb$529fdb5c$414e828e$15...@EVERESTKC.NET...

> [followups vandalism repaired]
>
> On 12/4/2013 5:40 PM, F. George McDuffee wrote:
>> ,rec.bicycles.tech and can.politics, pruned from distro
>> because of ISP spam limits
>>
>> On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 13:30:39 -0800, Rudy Canoza
>> <LaLaLa...@philhendrie.con> wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>> Real data collected over a
>>> longer term shows that increases in min. wage reduce employment.
>> <snip>
>>
>> While a more limited, nuanced, and qualified statement *MAY*
>> be correct, such as unemployment by age groups, ethnicity
>> and gender, this general statement is not supported by the
>> aggregate historical data going back to 1950
>
> Yes, it is. Increases in the min. wage above the market clearing price of
> labor reduce employment - period.

Of course, and he knows it too. They just don't care what the truth is. It's
a cult.

-Eddie Haskell

[jim]

The truth is that you can't explain why Australia has
a lower unemployment rate even though the minimum wage
is twice as high in Australia compared to the US.

[Eddie Haskell]

"Dhu on Gate" <camp...@neotext.ca> wrote in message
news:4gSnu.315965$Us6.1...@fx12.iad...

Yeah, just like it's okay to lie and cause people to lose their insurance
because well.. it was decreed inadequate by the democrats. You corrupt fucks
don't give a damn about people.

-Eddie Haskell

[Rudy Canoza]

[followups vandalism by unethical racist shitbag looter repaired]

On 12/5/2013 8:40 AM, jim lied:

>
>
> Eddie Haskell wrote:
>>
>> "Rudy Canoza" <LaLaLa...@philhendrie.con> wrote in message
>> news:457bb$529fdb5c$414e828e$15...@EVERESTKC.NET...
>>> [followups vandalism repaired]
>>>
>>> On 12/4/2013 5:40 PM, F. George McDuffee wrote:
>>>> ,rec.bicycles.tech and can.politics, pruned from distro
>>>> because of ISP spam limits
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 13:30:39 -0800, Rudy Canoza
>>>> <LaLaLa...@philhendrie.con> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> <snip>
>>>>> Real data collected over a
>>>>> longer term shows that increases in min. wage reduce employment.
>>>> <snip>
>>>>
>>>> While a more limited, nuanced, and qualified statement *MAY*
>>>> be correct, such as unemployment by age groups, ethnicity
>>>> and gender, this general statement is not supported by the
>>>> aggregate historical data going back to 1950
>>>
>>> Yes, it is. Increases in the min. wage above the market clearing price of
>>> labor reduce employment - period.
>>
>> Of course, and he knows it too. They just don't care what the truth is. It's
>> a cult.
>
> The truth is that you can't explain why Australia has
> a lower unemployment rate

If they had no minimum wage, their unemployment rate would be lower still.

[Jeff M]

On 12/5/2013 10:53 AM, Rudy Canoza wrote:
[snip]

> If they had no minimum wage, their unemployment rate would be lower still.

And slaves have full employment.


--
�The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in
moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification
for selfishness.� - John Kenneth Galbraith

[jim]

That is a very feeble dodge of the question based
on what you hope would happen. You still are at a loss
to explain why the unemployment rate in Australia is lower
even though the minimum wage is twice as high.

And if their unemployment rate was reduced lower by
any significant amount that would bring higher inflation.

[Eddie Haskell]

"Rudy Canoza" <LaLaLa...@philhendrie.con> wrote in message

news:1c36$52a0adb8$414e828e$17...@EVERESTKC.NET...

Yeah, and so would the cost of living, while high employment would force up
wages, but you can't make stupid people smart, and you can't stop democrats
from lying.

-Eddie Haskell

[Eddie Haskell]

"Jeff M" <NoS...@NoThanks.org> wrote in message
news:vuidndtZFZolLz3P...@giganews.com...

> On 12/5/2013 10:53 AM, Rudy Canoza wrote:
> [snip]
>
>> If they had no minimum wage, their unemployment rate would be lower
>> still.
>
> And slaves have full employment.

That's impossible in a flourishing market economy, DA. The slaves are the
people who have been priced out of a job by democrats so they can be slaves
to the government just like they are trying to do to the middle class with
Obamacare, dumbass. You don't give a fuck, becuse you are one of them.
Goddamn the irony.

-Eddie Haskell

[Rudy Canoza]

On 12/5/2013 9:11 AM, M.I.Wakefield wrote:
> groups snipped due to providers limitations on crossposting:
> rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.bicycles.tech
>
>
> "Rudy Canoza" wrote in message
> news:d47cb$52a09b14$414e828e$10...@EVERESTKC.NET...

> So what's your solution, given that more than half of fast food workers
> make so little that they qualify for federal aid (medicaid, food stamps,
> welfare)?

Bullshit.

No matter how you try to manipulate it, raising the minimum wage is
going to throw some people out of work. Raising it to double its
current level is going to throw a *LOT* of people out of work. Prior
hikes in the minimum wage, on the order of 15%-20%, had measurable
disemployment effects - some people saw their jobs disappear, others
lost their jobs altogether. A hike of 107% would be that much worse.

[Eddie Haskell]

"Rudy Canoza" <LaLaLa...@philhendrie.con> wrote in message

news:91852$52a0b820$414e828e$11...@EVERESTKC.NET...

Of course, but you can't make them care. It's a fuckin' cult.

-Eddie Haskell

[Rudy Canoza]

The amazing thing is that they think the price of something can be
increased - more than doubled, based on the proposed increase in the min
wage to at least $15 an hour - and that firms will keep using the same
amount of labor. It's preposterous. The very people proposing this
would not keep buying the same amount if something they buy a lot of
suddenly shot up in price. Why in the fuck do these idiot cultists
think businesses would react any differently? The cultists are
completely irrational and delusional.

[Pete C.]

Ignoramus19407 wrote:
>
> My prediction: in 15 years, the average number of employees at a
> McDonalds fast food restaurant will be between 1 and 2. Everything
> else will be automated. There is no reason to have so many people
> there working.

Absolutely true. They already automate much of the drink dispensing,
much like starsucks uses super auto espresso machines that require no
skill to operate. All of these fast food / fast beverage places can
readily be automated to a much higher degree.

Beyond that, the minimum wage is nothing but a vote buying scam. Raising
the minimum wage simply triggers a cascade effect of economic
rebalancing such that the minimum wage worker is back to exactly the
same hours worked to buying power ratio as where they started after six
months to a year. The numbers on the pay check are larger, but it still
takes the same number of work hours to buy the same products as before.

[Pete C.]

Larry Jaques wrote:
>
> Fast food will come entirely premade with none of this silly "Have It
> Your Way" crap to interfere with the profits.

Not at all. Automation is quite capable of assembling your burger
without pickles if that's what you order. The food will not come
pre-made from some far away factory, the components will arrive the same
as they do now and will simply be prepared and assembled by machines
instead of the current low skill workers who usually screw up the order
anyway.

[Pete C.]

Howard Beal wrote:
>
> Automation will advance regardless of what the minimum wage is. In the very
> near future many manual
> labor jobs will become obsolete, remember meter readers? The big question
> that no one has an answer
> for is what will all the displaced under educated workers do to earn a
> living. The cost to society will be
> great.

The problem is far worse than that actually. There is a current myth
that higher education will somehow eliminate the problem, but the
fundamental issue is not education, it is the fact that a smaller and
smaller percentage of the population is required to produce everything
the population needs. This means that you can have free higher ed. and
end up with soup kitchen lines full of PhDs with no jobs. What will
happen to wages for those high skilled jobs when there are 100 fully
qualified applicants for every available position? Can a Ph.D. engineer
operate a septic pumping truck better than a high school dropout? Will
that Ph.D. provide any advantage in finding a job when none are
available?

[Pete C.]

And their countries of origin are countries too and they need to get
back to them. Follow the rules and come here legally. If you don't like
the rules it doesn't give you license to ignore them.

[Jeff M]

On 12/5/2013 11:29 AM, Rudy Canoza wrote:

[excessive cross-posted NGs trimmed]

> On 12/5/2013 9:11 AM, M.I.Wakefield wrote:
>> groups snipped due to providers limitations on crossposting:
>> rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.bicycles.tech
>>
>>
>> "Rudy Canoza" wrote in message
>> news:d47cb$52a09b14$414e828e$10...@EVERESTKC.NET...
>>
>>> On 12/4/2013 7:18 PM, Dhu on Gate wrote:
>>> > On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 13:30:39 -0800, Rudy Canoza wrote:
>>> >
>>> >>
>>> >> Finally, the NJ min. wage increase was $.80 per hour, from $4.25 to
>>> >> $5.05,
>>> >> or just under 19%. The "wages strike" is calling for an increase in

>> So what's your solution, given that more than half of fast food workers
>> make so little that they qualify for federal aid (medicaid, food stamps,
>> welfare)?
>
> Bullshit.

Nope, it's a FACT:

"More than half of fast food workers have to rely on public assistance
programs since their wages aren't enough to support them, a new report
found.
According to a University of California Berkeley Labor Center and
University of Illinois study out Tuesday, 52% of families of fast food
workers receive assistance from a public program like Medicaid, food
stamps, the Earned Income Tax Credit and Temporary Assistance for Needy
Families. That's compared to 25% of families in the workforce as a whole.
The report estimated that this public aid carries a $7 billion price tag
for taxpayers each year.
The numbers are based on publicly available data on public assistance
programs from 2007-2011.
"Because pay is low and weekly work hours are limited, the families of
more than half of the workers in the fast-food industry are unable to
make ends meet," the report said."
http://money.cnn.com/2013/10/15/news/economy/fast-food-worker-public-assistance/

> No matter how you try to manipulate it, raising the minimum wage is
> going to throw some people out of work. Raising it to double its
> current level is going to throw a *LOT* of people out of work. Prior
> hikes in the minimum wage, on the order of 15%-20%, had measurable
> disemployment effects - some people saw their jobs disappear, others
> lost their jobs altogether. A hike of 107% would be that much worse.

"In a perfectly competitive market, anything that raises the wage above
a level at which the supply of workers equals the demand for them will
create unemployment. But a perfectly competitive labor market requires
that neither workers nor firms have bargaining power; that everyone has
all the necessary information; that workers are a commodity, rather than
different people with different skills and a need to be motivated; and
that there are no frictions preventing supply from matching demand.

Although everyone I know who teaches introductory economics presents
this model to students, few believe that it describes the real world. In
fact, in a survey of 40 leading economists through the Initiative on
Global Markets, a diverse group including both prominent liberals and
conservatives, only about a third agreed that raising the minimum wage
would make it harder for low-skilled workers to find employment. Because
only about one in 10 thought the costs of hiring probably would be
bigger than the benefits of higher wages for low-skilled workers, even
that number overstates how concerned these economists are about the
potential negative effects of raising the minimum wage.

So what’s the discrepancy between theory and what so many economists
think? When economists have analyzed the data, many have found few, if
any, negative effects of a minimum wage on employment. This has shifted
some of the thinking in the profession — and pointed to flaws in a
perfectly competitive model.

Paying workers more often leads them to feel better about their work and
reduces stress, both of which increase productivity. And when workers
produce more, employers’ labor costs fall. Companies such as Costco have
figured this out, and voluntarily pay higher wages. Other firms may not
care whether they pay less and get less from their workers, or pay more
and get more.

But workers aren’t indifferent to this choice. A family trying to
survive on the minimum wage can find itself living deep in poverty.
Raising the minimum wage would not only lift some families out of
poverty, but their additional earnings would contribute to the overall
economy by raising demand and job growth as they spend more in their
communities."
http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-04-05/opinions/38300337_1_minimum-wage-fair-labor-standards-act-workers
-----
"Increasing the minimum wage helps ensure employees are rewarded for
their hard work and boosts the incomes of low-wage workers—something
that is sorely needed to increase consumption and get the economy going.
It reduces turnover and helps employers compete on a more level playing
field, forcing firms away from a low-road, low-human capital investment
model to one where workers stay attached to the workforce and employers
make stronger investments in training. Taxpayers are better off because
they have to bear fewer of the negative externalities from low-road
employers—such as the costs of food stamps and Medicaid.
There is also a growing consensus among economists and academics that
raising the minimum wage does not kill jobs even during periods of
recession.
We reviewed academic research that examines the effects of minimum wage
increases during a recession or stretch of time with high unemployment
and found significant evidence that even during hard economic times,
raising the minimum wage is likely to have no adverse effect on employment.
Two key articles released in the past year provide definitive evidence
on the overall effects of the minimum wage on wages and employment.
Additionally, they provide compelling evidence about the impact of
raising the minimum wage during hard economic times.
The first study, published in November 2010 in the Review of Economics
and Statistics by Arindrajit Dube of the University of Massachusetts,
Amherst; T. William Lester of the University of North Carolina, Chapel
Hill; and Michael Reich of the University of California, Berkeley,
compared all of the adjacent counties that touch a state border where
there is a difference in the mandated minimum wage in each state.
Overall, the authors found that minimum wage increases raise wages for
low-wage workers but do not reduce employment. Critically, this paper
also demonstrated how previous research detected an erroneous
“disemployment” effect by failing to control for broad regional growth
trends.
Though the authors did not specifically focus on the minimum wage’s
impact during economic contractions, their period of analysis spanned
1990 to 2006, during which there were several recessions. In addition,
subsequent analysis by one of the co-authors finds that the overall
results hold when only recession periods are considered.
The second recent study, published in April in Industrial Relations by
Sylvia A. Allegretto of the University of California, Berkeley;
Arindrajit Dube; and Michael Reich, focused on state-level data. The
authors replicated the models of researchers whose studies of teen
employment found that increases in the minimum wage create job losses
and are often cited by minimum wage opponents. (Teen employment is often
viewed by minimum wage scholars as an indicator of the impact on the
lowest-skilled workers.)
Again, however, when the authors added appropriate variables to control
for regional differences—variables that previous researchers had
omitted—they found that minimum wage increases do not reduce teen
employment levels. Allegretto, Dube, and Reich specifically included an
analysis of the effect of the minimum wage during the recessions of
1990–1991, 2001, and 2007–2009 and again found no impact on hours worked
or employment levels.
Our review covered studies from as far back as the early 1990s and
included research based on state and local case studies as well as
nationally representative data. While some of these studies were not
focused on separating out whether the effect of a minimum wage increase
was different during a recession, their analysis covered minimum wage
increases during hard economic times.
University of California, Berkeley, economist David Card and Princeton
economist Alan Krueger’s seminal study of the effect of the New Jersey
1992 minimum wage increase comparing fast food industry employment in
New Jersey and Pennsylvania found no negative employment effect. In
fact, it found stronger employment growth in New Jersey. While there was
no national recession at the time, New Jersey’s unemployment rate was
8.7 percent in parts of 1992.
Similarly, Lawrence F. Katz, a Harvard economist, and Alan Krueger
studied fast food employment in Texas from 1990 to 1991 and found that
employment slightly increased when the minimum wage was raised. The
study included a 1990 minimum wage increase that occurred just before
the 1990–1991 recession and a second increase that occurred just after
the recession officially ended.
Moreover, David Card’s study of the impacts on teen employment of the
1990 federal minimum wage increase using state-level data found no
effect on teen employment. Most of the time period he studied included
the 1990–1991 recession.
A more recent study by Arindrajit Dube, T. William Lester, and Michael
Reich examines the impact of minimum wage changes on county-level
employment and labor turnover from 2001 through 2008. Specifically, the
authors’ analysis covered a period when there were two increases in the
federal minimum wage during a recession, one in 2007 and one in 2008.
This study’s finding of significantly reduced turnover among low-wage
sections of the labor market offers a clear explanation for why they
observed that employment does not fall in response to a minimum wage
hike. Further, because their data was at the county level, there were
numerous counties suffering high unemployment when minimum wage
increases went into effect.
In short, the academic research suggests that even during hard economic
times, raising the minimum wage doesn’t reduce employment.
http://www.americanprogressaction.org/issues/labor/news/2011/06/07/9747/an-increased-minimum-wage-is-good-policy-even-during-hard-times/

--
“The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in

moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification

for selfishness.” - John Kenneth Galbraith

[Jeff M]

The amazing thing is that you can be so cocksure yet ignorant of the
facts relevant to, and disproving of, your claim, all while using a
device that can bring you a world of factual data and scientific
research from any number of credible sources (and a bunch of
non-credible one that need to be filtered out) about just about any
topic you'd care to discuss. All you have to do is look it up and do a
little reading and thinking before you post. Or are you one of those
"go with your gut" types, like President Bush the Lesser?


--
�The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in

moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification

[Eddie Haskell]

"Rudy Canoza" <LaLaLa...@philhendrie.con> wrote in message

news:aa5b9$52a0ba43$414e828e$12...@EVERESTKC.NET...

Of course it's preposterous, but on one end of the democrat party you have
the corrupt liars, and on the other end you have the stupid fucks that can't
think for themselves. It's a coalition with Jim Jones at the head. They
can't be reasoned with. War is the only answer.

-Eddie Haskell

[Billy]

In article <a0b0b$529f9d3d$414e828e$28...@EVERESTKC.NET>,
Rudy Canoza <LaLaLa...@philhendrie.con> wrote:

> On 12/3/2013 12:08 PM, dca...@krl.org wrote:
> > On Tuesday, December 3, 2013 9:36:12 AM UTC-5, F. George McDuffee wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> This bourgeoisie B/S goes back to at least the gilded age*
> >>
> >> of Hanna/McKinley and the robber barons when the workers at
> >>
> >> last began to unionize and push back. The only thing missing
> >>
> >> is blaming "outside agitators" for stirring up trouble among
> >>
> >> the contented masses on the plantation.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> It is highly dangerous delusion and rationalization, and an
> >>
> >> insult to anyone who has studied history**.
> >>
> >>
> > I think your statement is an insult to anyone who has taken Economics in
> > college. One of the basic tenants is that if you raise the price of
> > something there is less demand for it. ie If you raise the cost of labor,
> > there will be less demand for labor.
> >
> > If raising the minimum wage to $15 / hour is good, why is raising it to
> > $100 an hour bad? The answer is that the effects of raising the minimum
> > wage are obvious if you raise it to $100 / hour.
> >
>
> http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/breaking-the-law-of-demand#axzz2mXc5IOdb

The Foundation for Economic Education (FEE) is a think tank established
in the United States specifically to promote, research and promulgate
free market and libertarian ideas.

Problem is that there never has been a free market. Free markets require
transparency, so that everyone understands the exchange. Sadly,
transparency only gets in the way of profits. (See sub-prime mortgages)

What is Neo-Liberalism?

The main points of neo-liberalism include:
1. THE RULE OF THE MARKET. Liberating "free" enterprise or private
enterprise from any bonds imposed by the government (the state) no
matter how much social damage this causes. Greater openness to
international trade and investment, as in NAFTA. Reduce wages by
de-unionizing workers and eliminating workers' rights that had been won
over many years of struggle. No more price controls. All in all, total
freedom of movement for capital, goods and services. To convince us this
is good for us, they say "an unregulated market is the best way to
increase economic growth, which will ultimately benefit everyone." It's
like Reagan's "supply-side" and "trickle-down" economics -- but somehow
the wealth didn't trickle down very much.

2. CUTTING PUBLIC EXPENDITURE FOR SOCIAL SERVICES like education and
health care. REDUCING THE SAFETY-NET FOR THE POOR, and even maintenance
of roads, bridges, water supply -- again in the name of reducing
government's role. Of course, they don't oppose government subsidies and
tax benefits for business.

3. DEREGULATION. Reduce government regulation of everything that
could diminsh profits, including protecting the environmentand safety on
the job.

4. PRIVATIZATION. Sell state-owned enterprises, goods and services to
private investors. This includes banks, key industries, railroads, toll
highways, electricity, schools, hospitals and even fresh water. Although
usually done in the name of greater efficiency, which is often needed,
privatization has mainly had the effect of concentrating wealth even
more in a few hands and making the public pay even more for its needs.

5. ELIMINATING THE CONCEPT OF "THE PUBLIC GOOD" or "COMMUNITY" and
replacing it with "individual responsibility." Pressuring the poorest
people in a society to find solutions to their lack of health care,
education and social security all by themselves -- then blaming them, if
they fail, as "lazy."



> http://www.cnn.com/2011/09/16/opinion/saltsman-minimum-wage/
>
>
> The Card & Krueger study had shitty data. Real data collected over a

> longer term shows that increases in min. wage reduce employment.
>

> Also, Card & Krueger made one huge error. They looked at the number of
> people with fast food jobs, which went up slightly in NJ following that
> state's small min. wage increase. What they should have looked at is
> number of hours worked. That went down - in *total*. In other words,
> consistent with demand theory, increasing the price reduced the amount
> purchased.

>
> Finally, the NJ min. wage increase was $.80 per hour, from $4.25 to
> $5.05, or just under 19%. The "wages strike" is calling for an increase
> in the federal min. wage from its current level of $7.25 to (at least)
> $15. That's an increase of $7.75, or almost 107%.
>

> No one in his right mind thinks that won't have a disemployment effect.
> Many people will lose their jobs; others will see their hours
> drastically cut; and many people who might have got jobs at the old rate
> will see all prospects of employment evaporate.
>
> The ignorant blabber - lies and sophistry - about how we're "already"
> paying $15 an hour for unskilled workers is both false and misses the
> point. First of all, it is very well documented that most min. wage
> workers are young people still living with their parents. They're not
> receiving dole benefits. Secondly, even if there were a lot of public
> welfare expenditures on min. wage workers, such that their employers are
> paying half their income and dole benefits comprise the other half, to
> the extent employment will fall drastically among that segment, public
> expenditure would *increase*, because they then wouldn't be earning
> anything from private employment.

>
> The min. wage destroys employment - predicted by theory, confirmed
> empirically.

Michael Saltsman, Special to CNN
Michael Saltsman is the research director at the Employment Policies
Institute.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employment_Policies_Institute>
Employment Policies Institute
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Employment Policies Institute
Abbreviation EPI
Formation 1991
Type Think tank
Headquarters Washington, D.C., United States
Website http://epionline.org/

The Employment Policies Institute (EPI) is a fiscally conservative
non-profit American think tank that conducts research on employment
issues like minimum wage and health care. EPI was established in 1991[1]
and has been described as "a nonprofit research group that studies
issues of entry-level employment."[2] In 2009, EPI became engaged in an
education campaign, Defeat The Debt, on the national debt.[3]

According to Source Watch, EPI is one of several front groups created by
Berman and Company, a Washington, D.C. public relations organization
that lobbies for the restaurant, hotel, alcoholic beverage and tobacco
industries.[4][5] It should not be confused with the older, similarly
named Economic Policy Institute, which is a liberal think tank
advocating for low to moderate-income families in the United States.[6]
-------

Richard Berman has been a regular front man for business and industry in
campaigns against consumer safety and environmental groups. Through his
public affairs firm, Berman and Company, Berman has fought unions,
Mothers Against Drunk Driving, PETA and other watchdog groups in their
efforts to raise awareness about obesity, the minimum wage, the dangers
of smoking, mad cow disease, drunk driving, and other causes. Berman
runs at least 15 industry-funded front groups and projects, such as the
Center for Union Facts and holds 16 "positions" in those organizations.


<http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20130220/MCT/130229959/0/search>
TWO VIEWS: Yes, raising minimum wage is good economics



<http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20130225/ARTICLES/130229682>
The Walmart is a "net job destroyer" when it arrives in communities,
Reich said.

"One of the tactics of Wal-Mart is to suck jobs out of a community," the
former Clinton administration official said. "For every job gained, 1.4
jobs are lost."



<http://www.peri.umass.edu/fileadmin/pdf/resources/Minimum_Wage_petition_
website.pdf>
If, since 1968, the U.S. minimum wage had only just kept up with
inflation and average labor productivity growth, the minimum wage today
would be $25.00



<http://www.peri.umass.edu/fileadmin/pdf/resources/minwage_notesjune19.pd
f>

On average, even fast food restaurants, which employ a disproportionate
share of minimum wage workers, are likely to see their overall business
costs increase by only about 2.7 percent
from a rise today to a $10.50 federal minimum wage.
That means, for example, that McDonalds could cover fully half of the
cost increase by raising the price of a Big Mac, on average, from
$4.00 to $4.05. The remaining half of the adjustment could come
through small productivity gains or a slightly more equal distribution of
companies� total revenues.



<http://democrats.edworkforce.house.gov/sites/democrats.edworkforce.house
.gov/files/documents/WalMartReport-May2013.pdf>

After analyzing data released by Wisconsin�s Medicaid program, the
Democratic staff of the U.S. House Committee on
Education and the Workforce estimates that a single 300-
person Wal-Mart Supercenter store in Wisconsin likely costs
taxpayers at least $904,542 per year and could cost taxpayers
up to $1,744,590 per year � about $5,815 per employee.



<http://alangraysonemails.tumblr.com/post/64719421164/the-tea-party-no-mo
re-popular-than-the-klan>

<http://www.gallup.com/poll/160373/democrats-racially-diverse-republicans
-mostly-white.aspx>
Democrats Racially Diverse; Republicans Mostly White

Extinction isn't just for Dinosaurs anymore, join the "Guardians of
Privilege" on their Lemming's Run to Oblivion.

Tea,
the new Kool Aid
--
Remember Rachel Corrie
<http://www.rachelcorrie.org/>

Welcome to the New America.
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg>

[Rudy Canoza]

On 12/5/2013 11:07 AM, Billy wrote:
> In article <a0b0b$529f9d3d$414e828e$28...@EVERESTKC.NET>,
> Rudy Canoza <LaLaLa...@philhendrie.con> wrote:
>
>> On 12/3/2013 12:08 PM, dca...@krl.org wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, December 3, 2013 9:36:12 AM UTC-5, F. George McDuffee wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> This bourgeoisie B/S goes back to at least the gilded age*
>>>>
>>>> of Hanna/McKinley and the robber barons when the workers at
>>>>
>>>> last began to unionize and push back. The only thing missing
>>>>
>>>> is blaming "outside agitators" for stirring up trouble among
>>>>
>>>> the contented masses on the plantation.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It is highly dangerous delusion and rationalization, and an
>>>>
>>>> insult to anyone who has studied history**.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I think your statement is an insult to anyone who has taken Economics in
>>> college. One of the basic tenants is that if you raise the price of
>>> something there is less demand for it. ie If you raise the cost of labor,
>>> there will be less demand for labor.
>>>
>>> If raising the minimum wage to $15 / hour is good, why is raising it to
>>> $100 an hour bad? The answer is that the effects of raising the minimum
>>> wage are obvious if you raise it to $100 / hour.
>>>
>>
>> http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/breaking-the-law-of-demand#axzz2mXc5IOdb
>
> The Foundation for Economic Education (FEE) is a think tank established
> in the United States specifically to promote, research and promulgate
> free market and libertarian ideas.

In other words, they're among the good guys. But I already knew that.
Thanks for sharing, anyway.

You didn't refute what they, and I, said: raising the minimum wage
reduces employment. That can't be a good thing for the people who lose
jobs or see their hours slashed.

[dca...@krl.org]

On Thursday, December 5, 2013 11:40:04 AM UTC-5, jim wrote:



>
> The truth is that you can't explain why Australia has
>
> a lower unemployment rate even though the minimum wage
>
> is twice as high in Australia compared to the US.
>

Where is your metal working content? I explained why Australia has a lower unemployment rate. It has nothing to do with the minimum wage. But you do not seem to understand that part.

So back to metal working. The only metal working today was cutting down a cookie pan that was slightly too big to go in the oven. Just used a hack saw to get close. A bench grinder got the cut streight, and a file and wire brush got rid of the sharp edges.

Dan

[F. George McDuffee]

========================

In all fairness it should be noted that U.S. actions have
largely caused the flood of legal and undocumented
immigrants by destroying the employment opportunities and
sociocultural infrastructure in their own countries.

In most cases these policies were formulated and implemented
by the elitist cliques/blocs, with minimal to no input from
the general public, but with maximum perceived benefit for
the cliques, which range from massive global social
engineering on the progressive left to enormous personal
profits on the reactionary right.

For example, NAFTA was negotiated with minimal public
notice, and ratified with almost no serious evaluation. By
opening the Mexican agricultural sector to competition with
the gigantic American agribusinesses such as ADM, Cargill,
Monsanto, and the corporate factory farms, enormous profits
were indeed made, but the existing small-scale subsistence
farming that provided employment for hundreds of thousands
of people for generations was destroyed by the stroke of a
pen. This further destabilized what was already a unstable
economy, leading directly into the current problems of the
narcoeconomy. The Mexican cities are full, with minimal
employment opportunities, particularly for dispossessed
rural economic refugees, so in too many cases, its the US or
starvation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zapatista_Army_of_National_Liberation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiapas_conflict
http://www.chiapas-support.org/main.htm

This is yet another [international] example of socializing
the costs but privatizing the profits. Most any activity,
no matter how stupid or short-sighted, can be extremely
profitable, if enough of the costs can externalized [foisted
off on someone else].

[dca...@krl.org]

On Thursday, December 5, 2013 12:08:59 PM UTC-5, jim wrote:
>
>
>
> That is a very feeble dodge of the question based
>
> on what you hope would happen. You still are at a loss
>
> to explain why the unemployment rate in Australia is lower
>
> even though the minimum wage is twice as high.
>

Still not posting anything on topic. That is pretty much like the slobs that litter the road in front of my house. They also know better , but do it anyway.

Dan

[dca...@krl.org]

On Thursday, December 5, 2013 1:21:55 PM UTC-5, Jeff M wrote:


> The amazing thing is that you can be so cocksure yet ignorant of the
>
> facts relevant to, and disproving of, your claim, all while using a
>
> device that can bring you a world of factual data and scientific
>
> research from any number of credible sources (and a bunch of
>
> non-credible one that need to be filtered out) about just about any
>
> topic you'd care to discuss. All you have to do is look it up and do a
>
> little reading and thinking before you post. Or are you one of those
>
> "go with your gut" types, like President Bush the Lesser?

So where is the metal working content? Maybe you are not competent enough to actually do any metalworking. If you can't do metalworking , what makes you think you can understand economics?


Dan

[dca...@krl.org]

On Thursday, December 5, 2013 1:14:12 PM UTC-5, Jeff M wrote:


keep moving along. No metalworking content here.

Dan

[Michael A. Terrell]

A lot of long time restaurants and fast food places have closed around
here. Some were due to the downturn in new home construction, but some
just could no longer stay competitive and closed down. I saw another
one a few days ago. The property owner locked them out because they were
$26,000 behind on their lease payments. The prior tenant was a
Blockbuster store that went out of business.

--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

[dca...@krl.org]

On Thursday, December 5, 2013 2:07:24 PM UTC-5, Billy wrote:
>

What kind of metalworking do you do? I read the entire post and did not find any reference to metalworking.

Dan

[jim]

"dca...@krl.org" wrote:
>
> On Thursday, December 5, 2013 11:40:04 AM UTC-5, jim wrote:
>
> >
> > The truth is that you can't explain why Australia has
> >
> > a lower unemployment rate even though the minimum wage
> >
> > is twice as high in Australia compared to the US.
> >
>

> I explained why Australia has a lower unemployment rate.
> It has nothing to do with the minimum wage.

Sounds like you are saying the claim that a higher minimum wage
will produce high unemployment is bullshit.

[Scout]

"jim" <"sjedgingN0Sp"@m...@mwt.net> wrote in message
news:C5ydnaP0xOb4MT3P...@bright.net...

>
>
> Eddie Haskell wrote:
>>
>> "Rudy Canoza" <LaLaLa...@philhendrie.con> wrote in message

>> news:457bb$529fdb5c$414e828e$15...@EVERESTKC.NET...
>> > [followups vandalism repaired]
>> >
>> > On 12/4/2013 5:40 PM, F. George McDuffee wrote:
>> >> ,rec.bicycles.tech and can.politics, pruned from distro
>> >> because of ISP spam limits
>> >>

>> >> On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 13:30:39 -0800, Rudy Canoza

>> >> <LaLaLa...@philhendrie.con> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> <snip>

>> >>> Real data collected over a
>> >>> longer term shows that increases in min. wage reduce employment.

>> >> <snip>
>> >>
>> >> While a more limited, nuanced, and qualified statement *MAY*
>> >> be correct, such as unemployment by age groups, ethnicity
>> >> and gender, this general statement is not supported by the
>> >> aggregate historical data going back to 1950
>> >
>> > Yes, it is. Increases in the min. wage above the market clearing price
>> > of
>> > labor reduce employment - period.
>>
>> Of course, and he knows it too. They just don't care what the truth is.
>> It's
>> a cult.
>

> The truth is that you can't explain why Australia has
> a lower unemployment rate even though the minimum wage
> is twice as high in Australia compared to the US.

Has already been explained, but let me do so again. It's because the
Australian welfare system encourages those getting benefits to obtain a job.

[jim]

Yes. Your analysis is probably close to correct.
That is a strong argument for a higher minimum wage plus
a more effective welfare process.

[Rudy Canoza]

[followups vandalism repaired]

On 12/5/2013 3:15 PM, jim lied:

No, it isn't.

Your question is based on economic nonsense. Australia's unemployment
rate is higher than it would be if their minimum wage were lower or
abolished.

[dca...@krl.org]

On Thursday, December 5, 2013 4:19:33 PM UTC-5, jim wrote:

>
> Sounds like you are saying the claim that a higher minimum wage
>
> will produce high unemployment is bullshit.
>
-

Post something about metalworking and I will reply. Don't you feel guilty posting about minimum wage in a metalworking usegroup?

Dan

[Larry Jaques]

On Thu, 05 Dec 2013 13:06:35 -0500, "Pete C." <auxRe...@wpnet.us>
wrote:

>

Yes, they're people, too, and should be fed and housed while they're
being DEPORTED IMMEDIATELY. Some 24 million illegal Mexican aliens
are here right now, with millions of illegal Chinese, African (various
countries) and other illegals here. They are costing us trillions of
dollars which could have been either used by needy Americans or NOT
SPENT AT ALL. If they're breaking our laws, kick their asses out now,
(but _nicely_, with a smile) if that's OK with you, Ig. Sheesh...

--
Make awkward sexual advances, not war.

[technomaNge]

On 12/05/2013 12:06 PM, Pete C. wrote:

>
> And their countries of origin are countries too and they need to get
> back to them. Follow the rules and come here legally. If you don't like
> the rules it doesn't give you license to ignore them.
>

President StompyFoot doesn't seem to need a license when
he ignores them.



technomaNge
--

[Ignoramus15998]

Restaurants are constantly going out of business, this has been true
forever.

i

[Ignoramus15998]

Exactly. At our McDonalds, they screw up 40-50% of my orders, in
various ways.

i

[RogerN]

For me, getting a descent wage wasn't so easy. I bagged groceries for
$3.35/hr for a short period of time, did other low wage part time jobs when
people gave me a chance. Being a quite person doesn't help, employers buy
who sells themselves the best, not the person with the most potential. On
my part time minimum wage I put enough money aside to purchase a Taig Micro
Lathe, my dad bought me a General 1" micrometer. I made all kinds of
things, including a model steam engine, no plans, just memory from seeing
one in an encyclopedia in high school a few years before.

So as I was finishing up courses required for my Associated degree in
Electronics Technology, I got a job at a machine shop for $3.35/hr, same
wage as burger flippers make. I figured I was getting not only a paycheck,
but education and experience as well. After almost 2 years at the machine
shop I was up to $4 per hour but was interested in something in electronics
like I went to school for. Then I got a job in office machine repair,
started at $4/hr. I was sent to Chicago for training and it involved
electronics. I never could get the better paying industrial electrician
jobs or anything. On the side for hobby, I taught myself "C" programming,
Basic, Assembly Language, designed and build a stepper motor 3 axis circuit
board drill, ran from a Commodore 64, interfaced an IBM PC to a school
scoreboard and wrote the program to control it. The tough stuff was hobby,
the day job was not much better than minimum wage.

After over 10 years of office machine repair, I got a job at a cookie
factory as an industrial maintenance technician, $7.25/hr. production
workers at other plants in the area made more than that. I always
considered it valuable to take a low wage to gain experience, I felt there
was nothing wrong with working my way up. The cookie factory liked me, I
could make their machines run when no one else could, I was given raises
twice as fast as they told me I would when I got the job. So at the cookie
factory I went from $7.25/hr to over $9/hr in about 9 months. Other
industrial maintenance jobs wanted people with PLC experience. The cookie
factory didn't have PLC's. Most HR didn't realize that if I could teach
myself "C" and Assembly language, Ladder logic wouldn't be that tough for me
to learn.

I interviewed for a job, didn't get, I didn't know ladder logic, couldn't
just look it up on the internet then. So I bought a book to learn PLC's,
bought a broken Allen Bradley SLC100 with hand held programmer and self
teach guide, and started learning relay ladder logic programming. Then I
got an interview with an engineering company, the owner was the HR guy, he
recognized that what I had taught myself was related to the industrial
automation tasks he wanted someone to be able to do. So I started out at
$400/wk salary exempt, through many projects and challenges, I was over
double the salary within 2-1/2 to 3 years.

I currently have 7 years in engineering experience plus over 11 years as an
industrial electrical technician. I've had a lathe and drill press since my
teens and have owned mills too for around 15 years now.

I wasn't given an opportunity to develop most of my skills, I bought
equipment to gain the skills that are in demand, I took low wage jobs to get
the experience employers wanted. I did and learned much for no wage as
hobby projects. Same for my CNC experience, bought or converted machines
and taught myself, I've even written HPGL to G code converter programs in
Basic.

Now burger flippers think fast food is a career opportunity, it's a job to
put gas in the car while you gain some skills or get an education. Working
in fast food is barely better than a paper route for most. I know there are
managers and such that it is a career for, they should maker a livable wage,
but for school kids that get an entry level job, it's just some money while
preparing for a career.

If a person is worth the money, they should be able to find someone to pay
it without being forced to by the government or a union. I paid my dues and
gained the skills by investing my own time and money to educate myself. But
as the ultimate hypocrisy, Mother Jones thinks minimum wage should be $15/hr
while paying interns an equivalent of $6/hr.

RogerN

[Larry Jaques]

On Thu, 05 Dec 2013 12:57:30 -0500, "Pete C." <auxRe...@wpnet.us>

wrote:

>
>Larry Jaques wrote:
>>
>> Fast food will come entirely premade with none of this silly "Have It
>> Your Way" crap to interfere with the profits.
>
>Not at all. Automation is quite capable of assembling your burger
>without pickles if that's what you order. The food will not come
>pre-made from some far away factory, the components will arrive the same
>as they do now and will simply be prepared and assembled by machines
>instead of the current low skill workers who usually screw up the order
>anyway.

I still feel that costs are too high to accommodate choice and that
fast food will continue to reduce labor while automating the end store
with trucked, complete foods. Time will tell which of us is correct.

[jon_banquer]

But like the moron you truly are, you continue to eat there.

[jon_banquer]

On Tuesday, December 3, 2013 6:54:01 AM UTC-8, Ignoramus19407 wrote:
> My prediction: in 15 years, the average number of employees at a
>
> McDonalds fast food restaurant will be between 1 and 2. Everything
>
> else will be automated. There is no reason to have so many people
>
> there working.
>
>
>

> i

With McDonalds inability to give consumers the better food they want, I seriously doubt McDonalds will be around in 15 years.

If they are still around, it won't be serving the same kind of shit food they serve now.

[Michael A. Terrell]

Maybe he's posting about the only thing he knows. Being paid what
he's not worth.

[F. George McDuffee]

Follow-up

Earth calling McDonalds -- Earth calling McDonalds


http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2013/12/06/newser-mcdonalds-fast-food-protest/3890393/
<snip>
As fast food workers walked off the job in 100 cities
Thursday amid demands for higher pay, the fast food giant
thought it was a good idea to dish out some holiday tip
suggestions to its employees � like how much to tip your
massage therapist or pool cleaner.
Posted on its employee resource website, the now-deleted
suggestions, including one week's pay for your au pair, add
up to hundreds of dollars or more � pretty steep for
employees who largely earn just above minimum wage, NBC News
reports, though it notes the guide also said to tip based on
"your budget."
<snip>
Other helpful budget tips from McDonald's included its
suggestions that McDonald's employees get a second job and
sell their stuff to raise extra cash.
<snip>

[Gunner Asch]

On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 19:18:25 -0600, Ignoramus28714
<ignoram...@NOSPAM.28714.invalid> wrote:

>>
>> Some franchises probably would if they could get away with it.
>
>A lot of people could, and do, hire illegal aliens. But a McDonalds
>franchisee cannot, they are overseen very heavily.

Im well aware of the work arounds for such things.

I had a machine shop with 60+ latino workers.

They shared about 15 different social security numbers.

When the state would call about it..they would go back to McArther
park..spend 20 bucks..and get 15 different ones. Then they were good
for another year or more. This lasted 10 yrs that I know of.

Gunner

--
"Owning a sailboat is like marrying a nymphomaniac. You don�t want to do that
but it is great if your best friend does. That way you get all the benefits without any of the upkeep"

[Gunner Asch]

On Thu, 05 Dec 2013 13:02:11 -0500, "Pete C." <auxRe...@wpnet.us>
wrote:

>
>Howard Beal wrote:
>>
>> Automation will advance regardless of what the minimum wage is. In the very
>> near future many manual
>> labor jobs will become obsolete, remember meter readers? The big question
>> that no one has an answer
>> for is what will all the displaced under educated workers do to earn a
>> living. The cost to society will be
>> great.
>
>The problem is far worse than that actually. There is a current myth
>that higher education will somehow eliminate the problem, but the
>fundamental issue is not education, it is the fact that a smaller and
>smaller percentage of the population is required to produce everything
>the population needs. This means that you can have free higher ed. and
>end up with soup kitchen lines full of PhDs with no jobs. What will
>happen to wages for those high skilled jobs when there are 100 fully
>qualified applicants for every available position? Can a Ph.D. engineer
>operate a septic pumping truck better than a high school dropout? Will
>that Ph.D. provide any advantage in finding a job when none are
>available?

I know several Ph.Ds who ask "would you like fries with that?" and
happily so..there is no work for their job skills...

[Gunner Asch]

Airplanes have been falling out of the sky for a very long time as
well.

But when entire fleets start falling out of the sky..thats of some
concern..no?

[SteveB]

On 12/7/2013 6:25 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:

>
> I know several Ph.Ds who ask "would you like fries with that?" and
> happily so..there is no work for their job skills...

It's not a big wonder when their major was ancient Sumerian dialects.

Steve

[Gunner Asch]

On Mon, 09 Dec 2013 14:27:39 -0700, SteveB <Stevexx...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Or big demand careers like Elizabethan Poetry

[pyotr filipivich]

Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com> on Mon, 09 Dec 2013 16:37:08 -0800
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

>On Mon, 09 Dec 2013 14:27:39 -0700, SteveB <Stevexx...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>>On 12/7/2013 6:25 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
>>> I know several Ph.Ds who ask "would you like fries with that?" and
>>> happily so..there is no work for their job skills...
>>
>>It's not a big wonder when their major was ancient Sumerian dialects.
>>
>>Steve
>>
>Or big demand careers like Elizabethan Poetry

If only they had actually studied Sumerian or Elizabethan poetry,
they might know something applicable. The reality is they have a
degree in Liberalism Studies, and have no knowledge base, no
historical connection, and no critical thinking skills. But they are
fully buzzword compliant, and believe in Social Justice, Fairness and
Obama (instead of Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny).
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

[Larry Jaques]

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 09:27:57 -0800, pyotr filipivich
<ph...@mindspring.com> wrote:

>Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com> on Mon, 09 Dec 2013 16:37:08 -0800
>typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
>>On Mon, 09 Dec 2013 14:27:39 -0700, SteveB <Stevexx...@gmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>>On 12/7/2013 6:25 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
>>>> I know several Ph.Ds who ask "would you like fries with that?" and
>>>> happily so..there is no work for their job skills...
>>>
>>>It's not a big wonder when their major was ancient Sumerian dialects.
>>>
>>>Steve
>>>
>>Or big demand careers like Elizabethan Poetry
>
> If only they had actually studied Sumerian or Elizabethan poetry,
>they might know something applicable.

<g>

>The reality is they have a
>degree in Liberalism Studies, and have no knowledge base, no
>historical connection, and no critical thinking skills. But they are
>fully buzzword compliant, and believe in Social Justice, Fairness and
>Obama (instead of Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny).

If anything, that's pretty much my definition of "Hell".

--
I hate being bipolar ....... It's awesome!

[Gunner Asch]

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 09:27:57 -0800, pyotr filipivich
<ph...@mindspring.com> wrote:

http://education.yahoo.net/articles/most_useless_degrees.htm

http://www.forbes.com/pictures/lmj45ldff/the-least-valuable-college-majors/

http://www.forbes.com/sites/ruchikatulshyan/2013/12/09/goldman-sachs-tweeter/

http://www.thedailybeast.com/galleries/2012/04/23/the-13-most-useless-majors-from-philosophy-to-journalism.html

Now on the other hand....

http://blog.simplyhired.com/2013/07/the-nine-most-useful-college-degrees-today.html

http://www.thinkadvisor.com/2013/06/17/30-best-paying-college-majors-2013

Now..whats in the future?

[dca...@krl.org]

On Wednesday, December 11, 2013 3:27:42 PM UTC-5, Gunner Asch wrote:





> http://education.yahoo.net/articles/most_useless_degrees.htm
>
>
>
>
>
>
> http://blog.simplyhired.com/2013/07/the-nine-most-useful-college-degrees-today.html
>

I do not entirely agree with these two web sites. The first one has agriculture as the worst degree. But I met a dairy farmer whose son was quite bright. His high school teachers were trying to discourage him from getting a agriculture degree. But his father disagreed. His dairy sold milk in three states so he had to know business law as practised in three states, plus of course federal law. He had two tanker trucks so more to learn. His dairy is really a small business, so he needed to know the same stuff that the business grads had learned. He needed accounting, some chemistry, genetics, and a bunch more.

The second web site has a list of degrees that are good if you are going to work for someone. But are way too limited if you are going to work for yourself.

Dan

[Larry Jaques]

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 12:27:42 -0800, Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 09:27:57 -0800, pyotr filipivich
><ph...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>>Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com> on Mon, 09 Dec 2013 16:37:08 -0800
>>typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
>>>On Mon, 09 Dec 2013 14:27:39 -0700, SteveB <Stevexx...@gmail.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>>On 12/7/2013 6:25 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
>>>>> I know several Ph.Ds who ask "would you like fries with that?" and
>>>>> happily so..there is no work for their job skills...
>>>>
>>>>It's not a big wonder when their major was ancient Sumerian dialects.
>>>>
>>>>Steve
>>>>
>>>Or big demand careers like Elizabethan Poetry
>>
>> If only they had actually studied Sumerian or Elizabethan poetry,
>>they might know something applicable. The reality is they have a
>>degree in Liberalism Studies, and have no knowledge base, no
>>historical connection, and no critical thinking skills. But they are
>>fully buzzword compliant, and believe in Social Justice, Fairness and
>>Obama (instead of Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny).
>>--
>>pyotr filipivich
>>"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

>

>http://www.thedailybeast.com/galleries/2012/04/23/the-13-most-useless-majors-from-philosophy-to-journalism.html

<g>

>Now on the other hand....

>http://www.thinkadvisor.com/2013/06/17/30-best-paying-college-majors-2013

Wow, at least -half- of those are in engineering fields.


>Now..whats in the future?

The big question right now is: Do we _have_ one?
And if so, how similar will it be to the way things are right now?

[Gunner Asch]

The accountants will be of great use in counting the dead Lefties as
they are dozed into the mass graves.

[jon_banquer]

> "Owning a sailboat is like marrying a nymphomaniac. You don�t want to do that

>
> but it is great if your best friend does. That way you get all the benefits without any of the upkeep"
>
>
>
> ---
>
> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
>
> http://www.avast.com

The Great Cunt has already begun to swallow both of you. It's the only pussy either of you two morons has had in years.

[John B.]

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 09:27:57 -0800, pyotr filipivich
<ph...@mindspring.com> wrote:

And it is somebody else's fault that they can't find a suitable job.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Years ago I had a clever young Airman worked for me in the Air Force.
He was taking night classes through the A.F. and wanted to get his
collage degree through the G.I. Bill. He wrote to the Personal
Managers of General Motors, General Electric and Exxon asking for
their advise on what degree would give him the best chance of getting
a position with their company. they all said the same thing - get a
degree in English.

Apparently the ability to read and write English properly is an asset
that companies are prepared to pay good money to get :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Jim Wilkins]

"John B." <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:hs5ia99lrjo9bhscc...@4ax.com...

>
> Years ago I had a clever young Airman worked for me in the Air
> Force.
> He was taking night classes through the A.F. and wanted to get his
> collage degree through the G.I. Bill. He wrote to the Personal
> Managers of General Motors, General Electric and Exxon asking for
> their advise on what degree would give him the best chance of
> getting
> a position with their company. they all said the same thing - get a
> degree in English.
>
> Apparently the ability to read and write English properly is an
> asset
> that companies are prepared to pay good money to get :-)
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

Inability to write clearly kept me from taking engineering positions
for many years. I could do the work but I couldn't explain it or write
an operators manual, or pass a tech writing class. I began posting
here as self-help therapy, to practice on people who don't write my
review.
jsw