Holdnig endmills in Morse tapered holders Re: Am I a fool to buy this mill/drill?
Ignoramus16885
tools with milling cutters.
Until tonight that is.
I was sorting through approx. 400 lbs of tooling when I discovered a
set of MT4 tapered endmill holders, from 3/4 to perhaps 1 3/8"
endmills. Also MT5 tapered shell mill holders.
No drawbar threads.
What gives?
I would think that MT4 and MT5 are serious machines that would not be
built for no good reason.
i
On 2010-03-25, DoN. Nichols <dnic...@d-and-d.com> wrote:
> On 2010-03-24, danmitch <danm...@umflint.edu> wrote:
>> sta...@prolynx.com wrote:
>
> [ ... ]
>
>>> Here's Varmint Al's take:
>>> http://www.varmintal.com/alath.htm#Milling_Attachment
>>> The various bits are so low priced, you could make the attachment AND
>>> get the mill/drill if that's what you wanted. I'd still make/buy a
>>> drawbar setup for holding the milling cutters in the lathe, though,
>>> mill shanks will walk out of chucks. Little Machineshop also has both
>>> the drawbar and the "official" mini-lathe milling attachment.
>>>
>>> Stan
>> Agreed that a drill chuks should NOT be used to hold milling cutters.
>> Most milling cutters have hardened shanks that a chuck will NOT grip
>> adequately. The cutters will slip and pul out under load. This can make
>> a real mess of the work, and is potentially quite dangerous to the
>> operator. It's a BAD idea, even if the chuck is secured with a drawbar.
>
> There is an exception to this -- with chucks made by Albrecht
> with diamond grit faced jaws which *can* grip a milling cutter shank
> without slipping.
>
> However -- these particular ones also don't come with Morse
> Taper shanks, nor with Jacobs taper sockets. The come with integral R8
> or 30, 40, or perhaps even 50 taper holders. I think that they are for
> gripping solid carbide drill bits -- where even the shank is carbide. I
> don't think that they advise using it for holding end mills anyway.
>
>> Collets, in good condition, properly seated, are usually acceptable for
>> holding milling cutters. This is especially true for small low powered
>> machines. An "End-Mill Holder" is certainly more secure, but can induce
>> small (usually not serious) runout problems.
>
> Generally -- the runout is minimal with a Weldon shank end mill
> in a quality end mill holder. The fit is so tight that you can create a
> "pop" as it is drawn out if there is no through connection to the
> drawbar for airflow.
>
> And some of them are designed to be heated, and the shank put in
> there at which point they shrink fit -- very strong grip, and
> essentially no addition of runout.
>
> Also -- for those in the UK and Australia -- look into Clarkson
> collets. they are designed so the end mill *can't* be drawn out. The
> end mill has a cylindrical shank with a threaded end and the holder has
> a keyed nut which presses the center hole in the back of the end mill
> against a center pip in the body of the holder. There is a collet
> which tightens on the shank to maximize concentricity.
>
> I've got some Clarkson holders -- but not any reasonable number
> of matching end mills.
>
>> For light precision work, use collets ... for heavy work use end-mill
>> holders.
>
> Yes -- because R8 collets (at least -- perhaps others) will let
> the helical flute mills be drawn down under heavy cuts, resulting in a
> cut which gets deeper as you go along -- and sometimes even continues
> through the workpiece and into the mill's table. :-)
>
> Enjoy,
> DoN.
>
Jim Wilkins
16885.invalid> wrote:
> ...
> No drawbar threads....
> i
I have a B&S#7 tanged, 2" diameter shell mill that I planned to either
anneal and thread or weld a nut onto. I just used it to square the
sawn end of a 2.5" steel bar, The outer corners of the shell mill are
beveled and the flute spiral angle is 15 degrees.
Cranking the table slightly below stalling but enough to make the
machine vibrate, it took off 0.040" cleanly. When the cutter passed
off the work it fell out. It looks like the cutting force kept the
cutter pressed in, possibly because of the beveled corners.
I don't want to say that a loosened tang is safe, but whenever a drill
arbor has come loose the chuck simply stopped when I raised the
handle.
jsw
danmitch
Well, a bigger Morse tape will hold a larger cutter BEFORE the cutting
forces make it come loose! :-((
These things DO exist (Morse and B&S tapers are all I've seen), and WERE
used, probably mostly a long time ago. I've seen a bunch of such
tooling, including milling cutters with integral Morse tapers, and NO
drawbar threads. IIRC, all these cutters had tanged tapers.
As I said earlier, it CAN work, sometimes, maybe, if the tapers are well
seated (probaly driven in with a mallet). If you've ever tried to
UN-seat a well seated Morse taper, you'll know just how tenacious these
self-locking tapers can be.
I expect their biggest weakness was in interrupted cuts, where the
hammering would tend to work them loose.
Today they're mainly a curiosity. I wouldn't recommend using them.
Considering what a mess a cutter can make if it slips and puuls out in a
collet, I can't immagine how bad it's be if they pulled out of a taper
during a heavy cut. It's surely wreck the cutter and work, and maybe
damage the machine.
The few M2 size I have mostly had soft enough shanks that I drilled and
tapped most for a 3/8 drawbar.
Dan Mitchell
============
Tod
--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ne...@netfront.net ---
Jim Wilkins
> ...
>
> Well, a bigger Morse tape will hold a larger cutter BEFORE the cutting
> forces make it come loose! :-((
>
> I expect their biggest weakness was in interrupted cuts, where the
> hammering would tend to work them loose.
>
> Today they're mainly a curiosity. I wouldn't recommend using them.
> Considering what a mess a cutter can make if it slips and puuls out in a
> collet, I can't immagine how bad it's be if they pulled out of a taper
> during a heavy cut. It's surely wreck the cutter and work, and maybe
> damage the machine.
>
> The few M2 size I have mostly had soft enough shanks that I drilled and
> tapped most for a 3/8 drawbar.
>
> Dan Mitchell
The B&S #7 taper holding that 2" shell mill is almost identical to
Morse #2.
When a cutter slips down in a collet it's still held tightly. The
Morse or B&S taper releases immediately, at least on my Clausing which
doesn't drive the tang.
I purposely popped the arbor in only by hand and pushed the cut until
the mill vibrated. The milled surface does not show where the arbor
released, there is only a small chip still attached to the far edge.
At that point the bevel no longer pushed the shell mill upwards.
The belts are loose enough to slip, what I meant by 'stalled'.
This was a test, not an endorsement of tanged cutters.
jsw
Ignoramus30639
> Well, a bigger Morse tape will hold a larger cutter BEFORE the cutting
> forces make it come loose! :-((
>
> These things DO exist (Morse and B&S tapers are all I've seen), and
> WERE used, probably mostly a long time ago. I've seen a bunch of
> such tooling, including milling cutters with integral Morse tapers,
> and NO drawbar threads. IIRC, all these cutters had tanged tapers.
>
> As I said earlier, it CAN work, sometimes, maybe, if the tapers are well
> seated (probaly driven in with a mallet). If you've ever tried to
> UN-seat a well seated Morse taper, you'll know just how tenacious these
> self-locking tapers can be.
Took me at least a minute, and I had to get a 2 lb sledgehammer to get
one of those MT4 holders ouf of an MT5 adaptor.
> I expect their biggest weakness was in interrupted cuts, where the
> hammering would tend to work them loose.
>
> Today they're mainly a curiosity. I wouldn't recommend using them.
> Considering what a mess a cutter can make if it slips and puuls out in a
> collet, I can't immagine how bad it's be if they pulled out of a taper
> during a heavy cut. It's surely wreck the cutter and work, and maybe
> damage the machine.
>
> The few M2 size I have mostly had soft enough shanks that I drilled and
> tapped most for a 3/8 drawbar.
I intuitively agree with you, but I must point out, these holders are
very obviously used and they were used a lot. They also look like they
have not seen crashes. I can take pictures if anyone is interested,
they are quite unusual.
i
Jim Wilkins
30639.invalid> wrote:
> ...
> Took me at least a minute, and I had to get a 2 lb sledgehammer to get
> one of those MT4 holders ouf of an MT5 adaptor.
I made a cap that screws onto the top of the milling machine spindle
to push the loosened drawbar down and pop a collet without harming the
bearings.
jsw
John Martin
16885.invalid> wrote:
> tools with milling cutters.
>
> Until tonight that is.
>
> I was sorting through approx. 400 lbs of tooling when I discovered a
> set of MT4 tapered endmill holders, from 3/4 to perhaps 1 3/8"
> endmills. Also MT5 tapered shell mill holders.
>
> No drawbar threads.
>
> What gives?
>
> I would think that MT4 and MT5 are serious machines that would not be
> built for no good reason.
>
> i
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
The oldtimers used a ball of lead or a lead hammer to seat the cutters
in the taper. Much of the time, the cutters had straight flutes
rather than helical ones. The straight flutes bang harder in the cut,
but have less tendency to pull out of the taper.
R8 collets are lousy at holding end mills. Probably the best are the
TG series. I have TG100 collet chucks for my 40 taper horizontal
mill. Pretty tough to pull an end mill out of those - they weren't
named TG (Tremendous Grip) for nothing. Even safer are the TGNP (No
Pull) collets. These are the same as the regular TG collets, but have
a moveable button in one side. You place an end mill with a Weldon
shank in the collet (already in the collet nut), push the button into
the Weldon flat, and then screw the nut onto the collet holder. The
walls of the collet holder keep the button pushed into the Weldon
flat, and there is no way the end mill can pull out. You can't use
the TGNP collets on anything that doesn't have the flat, though.
Usually, I use the end mill holders. It's interesting to note that
the setscrews in the good ones match the Weldon flats perfectly - they
hit the sides of the flat just as they hit the bottom.
John Martin
Ignoramus30639
> The oldtimers used a ball of lead or a lead hammer to seat the cutters
> in the taper. Much of the time, the cutters had straight flutes
> rather than helical ones. The straight flutes bang harder in the cut,
> but have less tendency to pull out of the taper.
A big reason why I like selling industrial stuff, is that I like going
to factories. In any case, I have never seen a milling machine that
would take those Morse 5 tools. (not at that factory either)
Would anyone know of any such machine, that I can google.
> R8 collets are lousy at holding end mills.
not my experience.
> Probably the best are the TG series. I have TG100 collet chucks for
> my 40 taper horizontal mill. Pretty tough to pull an end mill out
> of those - they weren't named TG (Tremendous Grip) for nothing.
> Even safer are the TGNP (No Pull) collets. These are the same as
> the regular TG collets, but have a moveable button in one side. You
> place an end mill with a Weldon shank in the collet (already in the
> collet nut), push the button into the Weldon flat, and then screw
> the nut onto the collet holder. The walls of the collet holder keep
> the button pushed into the Weldon flat, and there is no way the end
> mill can pull out. You can't use the TGNP collets on anything that
> doesn't have the flat, though.
>
> Usually, I use the end mill holders. It's interesting to note that
> the setscrews in the good ones match the Weldon flats perfectly - they
> hit the sides of the flat just as they hit the bottom.
That seems like a smart system, yes.
i
Jim Wilkins
> ...
> The oldtimers used a ball of lead or a lead hammer to seat the cutters
> in the taper. Much of the time, the cutters had straight flutes
> rather than helical ones. The straight flutes bang harder in the cut,
> but have less tendency to pull out of the taper.
> John Martin
The batch I got from Wholesale Tool almost all have spiral flutes
either like modern end mills or finer ones like very old cutters. Most
have large center holes in both ends which make sharpening the flutes
lengthwise easy, but plunging in for a pocket more difficult. One has
no cutting edges at all on the end.
jsw
john
Almost all the older manual larger equipment was equipped with tapered
spindles. When you put the morse cutter in the spindle you use what we
called a banana pin in the slot that lined up with the slot on the tool
and tapped it in tight. The pin would lock the tool into the spindle.
The pin actually looked like an extractor that you use to remove morse
tapers but it was curved like a banana.
John
danmitch
That's been pretty much my point all along. Just because something
doesn't conform to current practice, doesn't mean it was never done.
Current practice has been arrived at by long experience. It's usually
either what works best, or (still) works (maybe just barely) and is
least expensive, as best we know NOW.
A lot of things were done differently, and perhaps not wisely, in days
past. They didn't know what worked best back then (nor do we today),
just what worked adequately for the time.
And, once you accept that such practices existed, those who had to work
with them learned HOW to use them to maximum effect. In many old
industries you learned HOW to do something properly or got fired (or
died) early. Everyday practice back then would be considered totally
reckless today ... but they did it, they (usually) got the job done,
they built our industries and our nation (world), and even (often, but
not always) survived.
You also can't separate industrial practice from everyday living in it's
own time frame ... LOTS of things were dangerous back then, and many
people didn't live long for all sorts of reasons. Some of them may have
been safer at work than at home.
You do the best you can with what you've got.
Dan Mitchell
============
danmitch
That's a good idea, assuming a hollow spindle. It saves the spindle
bearings from the jar of driving out the taper.
Recall that most of the Morse tooling I've seen is tanged. As most here
know, but some may not, the tang on such tools is NOT for driving the
cutter. It's nowhere near as strong in transferring torque as a properly
seated taper.
The tang is for ejecting the cutter from the taper using wedges inserted
through holes in the side of the spindle. This is most commonly applied
to drills, but it was obviously also was used with these milling cutters.
Dan Mitchell
============
Joe AutoDrill
> know, but some may not, the tang on such tools is NOT for driving the
> cutter. It's nowhere near as strong in transferring torque as a properly
> seated taper.
...and that is why the most common ER25 and ER32 MT2 collet chucks are
draw-bar equipped rather than made with a heat treated tang.
--
Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/AutoDrill
V8013-R
danmitch
These may well have been used in a horizontal mill with an overarm and
outboard center bearing. This would also help (a bit) to hold the cutter
in the taper.
Ignoramus30639
> bearings from the jar of driving out the taper.
>
> Recall that most of the Morse tooling I've seen is tanged. As most here
> know, but some may not, the tang on such tools is NOT for driving the
> cutter. It's nowhere near as strong in transferring torque as a properly
> seated taper.
I have seen a lot of twisted off tangs.
> The tang is for ejecting the cutter from the taper using wedges inserted
> through holes in the side of the spindle. This is most commonly applied
> to drills, but it was obviously also was used with these milling cutters.
Yep, those wedges are called drifts.
i
Ignoramus30639
I think that the take home lesson from this very interesting
discussion is as follows:
1) It is possible to use Morse taper tooling for milling, under
some conditions.
2) Despite that, the modern NMTB tooling is clearly much better.
I have also realized that, possibly, these toolholders were used for
straight shank drills, or hones, or something other than milling. That
would invalidate my point 1).
i
Jim Wilkins
> Jim Wilkins wrote:
> ...
> The tang is for ejecting the cutter from the taper using wedges inserted
> through holes in the side of the spindle. This is most commonly applied
> to drills, but it was obviously also was used with these milling cutters.
>
> Dan Mitchell
Neither my Clausing nor my Morse #3 horizontal mill have slots for the
drifts, or the parallel section that the tang engages. Both have
drawbars, at least, though the MT3 mill's arbor is threaded 1/2-12
(British pitch, American shape) rather than 1/2-13.
I suppose tolerating these quirks is the price of adopting unwanted
orphan machine tools. I acquire dogs the same way and they have turned
out well with some TLC.
jsw
Jon Elson
> On 2010-03-25, John Martin <jmart...@aol.com> wrote:
>> The oldtimers used a ball of lead or a lead hammer to seat the cutters
>> in the taper. Much of the time, the cutters had straight flutes
>> rather than helical ones. The straight flutes bang harder in the cut,
>> but have less tendency to pull out of the taper.
>
> A big reason why I like selling industrial stuff, is that I like going
> to factories. In any case, I have never seen a milling machine that
> would take those Morse 5 tools. (not at that factory either)
>
> Would anyone know of any such machine, that I can google.
>
more common on mills. You can probably still see combo mills and
horizontals with B&S #7, #9 and larger on eBay. These would mostly be
machines made before 1950 or so.
I had a Bridgeport M head on my mill with B&S #7, and remember MANY
times having to savagely beat the collet out of the spindle. It did
have a drawbar, however.
Jon
spaco
endmill holders.
My Craftsman 15" drill press is 50 years old. It has a tapered quill
with external threads. The drill chuck has a large captive nut that
screws onto those external threads holding chuck's tapered shank firmly
in place. It NEVER comes loose. I even used to do some light
end-milling with it. ----Yeh, I know. Don't flame me about why this is
not a good thing.
Point is: a mechanism like that could hold the MT endmill holder in place.
Pete Stanaitis
------------------------------
axolotl
> I have a B&S#7 tanged, 2" diameter shell mill that I planned to either
> anneal and thread or weld a nut onto.
Jim,
You may want to check the hardness with a file before you go to the
trouble of annealing. I have threaded several MT3 collets and end mill
holders by cutting off the tang with a hacksaw, filing flat and
centerdrilling. YMMV.
Kevin Gallimore
Jim Wilkins
> I wonder if somebody ever made an outer-end retainer for those MT
> endmill holders.
> My Craftsman 15" drill press is 50 years old. It has a tapered quill
> with external threads. The drill chuck has a large captive nut that
> screws onto those external threads holding chuck's tapered shank firmly
> in place. It NEVER comes loose. I even used to do some light
> end-milling with it. ----Yeh, I know. Don't flame me about why this is
> not a good thing.
> Point is: a mechanism like that could hold the MT endmill holder in place.
>
> Pete Stanaitis
The tanged end mills I bought show no evidence of a retainer. Most of
them look like modern ones and cut on both end and side, except that
all but one have a large or small center hole in the cutting end, I
suppose to grind the taper between centers.
I tried an extreme example of abuse, the 0.7" diameter taper driving a
2" shell mill, inserted by hand only. Smaller diameter end mills
tapped in with a lead hammer have worked satisfactorily. That one cut
well but fell out at the far edge of the work.
I just checked the 1919 Cincinnatti milling book. The taper-shanked
end mills pictured all take drawbars. I really have no idea why anyone
ever made tanged end mills. The tanged shell mill arbor was bought new
from Grand Tool. With B&S 7 you take whatever you can find.
jsw
Jim Wilkins
I did. The shell mill arbor is German and the file skates on it like
Katarina Witt.
jsw
Ned Simmons
wrote:
>
>Recall that most of the Morse tooling I've seen is tanged. As most here
>know, but some may not, the tang on such tools is NOT for driving the
>cutter. It's nowhere near as strong in transferring torque as a properly
>seated taper.
>
>The tang is for ejecting the cutter from the taper using wedges inserted
>through holes in the side of the spindle. This is most commonly applied
>to drills, but it was obviously also was used with these milling cutters.
I don't buy the argument that the tang is meant only for separating
the taper. It'd be much simpler and cheaper to accomplish the same
thing with a reduced diameter at the small end of the taper, as seen
on lathe centers. I do agree that the tang shouldn't transmit torque
under normal circumstances, but think it's there to protect the taper
if it starts to slip. At least until things really go to hell and the
tang gets twisted off.
--
Ned Simmons
danmitch
(April 2010) MSC "best Buys" catalog, and there, on pg. 60 are ...
"Morse Taper End Mill Holders, Tanged end (no drawbar threads), in taper
sizes from #2 to #5, mill sizes from 3/16" to 1.25", example part no.:
EV57570459
So, they're not JUST an old-time curiosity!
Wes
>>The tang is for ejecting the cutter from the taper using wedges inserted
>>through holes in the side of the spindle. This is most commonly applied
>>to drills, but it was obviously also was used with these milling cutters.
>
>I don't buy the argument that the tang is meant only for separating
>the taper. It'd be much simpler and cheaper to accomplish the same
>thing with a reduced diameter at the small end of the taper, as seen
>on lathe centers. I do agree that the tang shouldn't transmit torque
>under normal circumstances, but think it's there to protect the taper
>if it starts to slip. At least until things really go to hell and the
>tang gets twisted off.
I think you are right, if a loosely seated drill, is drilling something where the chisel
point of the drill meets the stock first, the drill gets seated before too much torque is
applied.
Now when there is a decent sized starter hole, well, that tang may have a bad day when a
lot of torque gets applied before the drill has a chance to seat.
Wes