Annealing brass and other non ferrous metals
Wes
annealing.
I've annealed case mouths on rifle cartridges standing in shallow water and then tipped
them over into the water just to cool them. The standing water level kept the case body
from being annealed. Was I missing something there? I'm thinking he is FOS.
Wes
Joseph Gwinn
Wes <clu...@lycos.com> wrote:
No, he's right: You quench ferrous alloys to harden and non-ferrous alloys to
anneal. Not that copper and brass are that fussy.
Joe Gwinn
Ed Huntress
"Wes" <clu...@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:jVhkn.8266$rq1....@en-nntp-02.dc1.easynews.com...
When annealing cartridge brass (C26000), the cooling rate is almost
irrelevant. It can only be influential if you're giving the brass a severe
annealing treatment, at close to the maximum annealing temperature of 1400
deg. F. You shouldn't be doing that with cartridges. You won't experience
grain growth if you hold the temperature close to the lower end, 800 deg. F.
There is no reason to go much higher unless you're going to severely re-work
the brass. It might be an issue if you're fire-forming wildcat cartridges.
There is no harm from a water quench in brass, except for lead-containing
alloys. Cartridges are made from straight copper-zinc.
This info is from the ASM's _Metals Handbook_, 9th Edition.
--
Ed Huntress
Ed Huntress
BTW, I may not have been clear about whether the guy at work is FOS. The
answer is, yes, he is. <g>
The grain-growth business only applies to very slow ramping down from very
high temperatures -- like you'd use to anneal air-hardening steel. And the
effect of that slow anneal would be to very slightly *soften* the metal as a
result of grain growth. It has no relevance in this application.
There will be no difference in hardness or grain size of your cartridge
necks whether you let them cool in air or quench them in water. However, the
water-tipping trick will help you confine the annealing to the area you
want.
--
Ed Huntress
Jon Anderson
> No, he's right: You quench ferrous alloys to harden and non-ferrous alloys to
> anneal. Not that copper and brass are that fussy.
In college metallurgy class, I insisted that copper, brass, and silver,
are annealed by quenching. I got on the teacher's shit list for
insisting this was so, and probably lost a grade point when I challenged
him in front of the class to put it to the test. And he refused...
Jon
Royston Vasey
For copper gasket washers that have age/work hardened - heat them up &
quench to soften & re-use.
Gunner Asch
Some non ferrous metals harden when quenched. Others, such as
brass..soften.
Lead as an example, hardens when quenched.
Gunner
Whenever a Liberal utters the term "Common Sense approach"....grab your
wallet, your ass, and your guns because the sombitch is about to do
something damned nasty to all three of them.
Gunner Asch
wrote:
So lead is a ferrous alloy?
<G>
Steve Lusardi
I do not normally disagree with you, but this time for sure. Lead hardening is performed by alloying the lead with other elements,
not heat treatment.
Steve
"Gunner Asch" <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:a2q3p5hmmh046qmvm...@4ax.com...
Gunner Asch
<steve...@lusardi.de> wrote:
>Gunner,
>I do not normally disagree with you, but this time for sure. Lead hardening is performed by alloying the lead with other elements,
>not heat treatment.
>Steve
<G>
Take your basic batch of wheel weight lead..which Brinnels about
9-10..and as you cast each one, dump it into a 5 gal bucket of water.
Measure them again in 3 days for hardness. You will find that they
hardened up to about 21-23 Brinnel and will stay that way for at least 4
yrs.
Dont believe me?
http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/alloyhardness/index.asp
http://www.lasc.us/HeatTreat.htm
I cast nearly all my rifle bullets over a 5 gallon bucket of water. I
average Brinell of 21 with basic wheelweights after a couple days and if
I use a Lead/Antimony alloy...I can get up to nearly 35 Brinell.
They will heat treat to 2.5-3.5x the hardness of the unheat treated
metal.
<G>
Gunner
Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
news:hmt15a$fad$00$1...@news.t-online.com:
> Gunner,
> I do not normally disagree with you, but this time for sure. Lead
> hardening is performed by alloying the lead with other elements, not
> heat treatment. Steve
Gunner's right on this one. Ball milling media made from lead alloys is
quench-hardened.
LLoyd
Jim Wilkins
> ...
> For copper gasket washers that have age/work hardened - heat them up &
> quench to soften & re-use.
When forming copper sheet and tube I usually heat to visible red and
DON'T quench, the metal seems to be equally soft either way. However
immediate quenching does reduce surface oxidation.
jsw
dca...@krl.org
Right. The quenching has no effect on copper and brass, other than it
makes no difference and if you quench you can handle the material
immediately. I suspect the same is true of lead alloys. ie they do
age harden whether one quenches them or not.
Gunner, have you ever not quenched a few bullets and checked the
hardness after a couple of days.
Dan
Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
1981-4e2d-a3a...@g19g2000yqe.googlegroups.com:
>I suspect the same is true of lead alloys. ie they do
> age harden whether one quenches them or not.
>
> Gunner, have you ever not quenched a few bullets and checked the
> hardness after a couple of days.
They'll also quench harden if the alloy contains a little antimony. Then
they age soften.
Check out this fairly good writeup:
http://www.tacticoolproducts.com/bullethardness/
I have a friend who is an antique weapons expert -- probably as well versed
on things over 75 years old than all but a small handful of people in the
world. His opinions, which I'd respect more than any web referece, is that
lead can be (surface) hardened by quenching.
LLoyd
Larry Jaques
<gunne...@gmail.com> scrawled the following:
>On Sat, 6 Mar 2010 08:44:36 +0100, "Steve Lusardi"
><steve...@lusardi.de> wrote:
>
>>Gunner,
>>I do not normally disagree with you, but this time for sure. Lead hardening is performed by alloying the lead with other elements,
>>not heat treatment.
>>Steve <G>
>
>Take your basic batch of wheel weight lead..which Brinnels about
>9-10..and as you cast each one, dump it into a 5 gal bucket of water.
>
>Measure them again in 3 days for hardness. You will find that they
>hardened up to about 21-23 Brinnel and will stay that way for at least 4
>yrs.
>
>Dont believe me?
>
>http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/alloyhardness/index.asp
>
>http://www.lasc.us/HeatTreat.htm
>
>I cast nearly all my rifle bullets over a 5 gallon bucket of water. I
>average Brinell of 21 with basic wheelweights after a couple days and if
>I use a Lead/Antimony alloy...I can get up to nearly 35 Brinell.
With the exception of the brief touch on obduration, the benefits of
quenching bullets weren't really covered in either article.
Why do you want harder bullets, Gunner? Penetration? Proper
obduration for the best velocity/performance on its flight? Or what?
Don't softer bullets fragment and/or widen better to stop the perps
quicker?
--
The blind are not good trailblazers.
-- federal judge Frank Easterbrook
Joseph Gwinn
Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 05 Mar 2010 20:12:59 -0500, Joseph Gwinn <joeg...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
> >In article <jVhkn.8266$rq1....@en-nntp-02.dc1.easynews.com>,
> > Wes <clu...@lycos.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Guy at work swore up and down that you have to quench non ferous metals to
> >> get the softest
> >> annealing.
> >>
> >> I've annealed case mouths on rifle cartridges standing in shallow water
> >> and
> >> then tipped
> >> them over into the water just to cool them. The standing water level
> >> kept
> >> the case body
> >> from being annealed. Was I missing something there? I'm thinking he is
> >> FOS.
> >
> >No, he's right: You quench ferrous alloys to harden and non-ferrous alloys
> >to anneal. Not that copper and brass are that fussy.
> >
> >Joe Gwinn
>
> So lead is a ferrous alloy?
Must be ...
Can't say that I was thinking about lead and its alloys. The above rule of
thumb covered common metals that exhibit elastic behavior over some range of
stress and strain. Unlike lead, indium, and the like.
Joe Gwinn
Buerste
"Larry Jaques" <lja...@diversify.invalid> wrote in message
news:bpq4p5pg40s80idj4...@4ax.com...
Harder bullets will go faster without leading the barrel. But, there is a
balance needed. Too hard and too slow and it won't obdurate and fill the
bore and you get gas leakage and gas cutting.and it might disintegrate on
impact or overpenetrate, To soft and it leads the barrel, The rifling will
not grip the soft lead like a striped screw.
Read this:
http://www.lasc.us/HeatTreat.htm
dca...@krl.org
<lloydspinsidemindspring.com> wrote:
> They'll also quench harden if the alloy contains a little antimony. Then
> they age soften.
>
> Check out this fairly good writeup:
>
> http://www.tacticoolproducts.com/bullethardness/
>
> LLoyd
I don't have much reason to test lead hardness, but the site you
provided seems to know about lead hardness. So I stand corrected on
lead alloys.
Dan
Gunner Asch
Ayup. and the Brinell seldom goes up past 1-3 points.
Ive cast somewhere around .5 million bullets in my lifetime....shrug. I
know something about the subject. Even wrote an article or two over the
years.
And brass cartridge cases really do need to be quenched when
conditioning the necks. Been there, done that many many thousand times.
Shrug
>
>Dan
Gunner Asch
<lja...@diversify.invalid> wrote:
>On Sat, 06 Mar 2010 01:43:49 -0800, the infamous Gunner Asch
><gunne...@gmail.com> scrawled the following:
>
>>On Sat, 6 Mar 2010 08:44:36 +0100, "Steve Lusardi"
>><steve...@lusardi.de> wrote:
>>
>>>Gunner,
>>>I do not normally disagree with you, but this time for sure. Lead hardening is performed by alloying the lead with other elements,
>>>not heat treatment.
>>>Steve <G>
>>
>>Take your basic batch of wheel weight lead..which Brinnels about
>>9-10..and as you cast each one, dump it into a 5 gal bucket of water.
>>
>>Measure them again in 3 days for hardness. You will find that they
>>hardened up to about 21-23 Brinnel and will stay that way for at least 4
>>yrs.
>>
>>Dont believe me?
>>
>>http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/alloyhardness/index.asp
>>
>>http://www.lasc.us/HeatTreat.htm
>>
>>I cast nearly all my rifle bullets over a 5 gallon bucket of water. I
>>average Brinell of 21 with basic wheelweights after a couple days and if
>>I use a Lead/Antimony alloy...I can get up to nearly 35 Brinell.
>
>With the exception of the brief touch on obduration, the benefits of
>quenching bullets weren't really covered in either article.
Obduration is one key ingrediant. Velocity is another. Both articles
touch on both. Reread them again.
>
>Why do you want harder bullets, Gunner? Penetration? Proper
>obduration for the best velocity/performance on its flight? Or what?
>
>Don't softer bullets fragment and/or widen better to stop the perps
>quicker?
One needs harder bullets so when fired at higher speeds, such as in any
rifle, they dont leave significant amounts of lead on the barrel walls.
If the bullet was sized to the proper diameter..which depends on the
weapon and type..self loader/bolt action/single shot vrs revolver with
properly formed and sized forcing cone...obduration is not a big issue.
Few people will pick lead alloy bullets to shoot perps with. Jacketed
dead soft lead cores do an admirable job of expansion, with the jacket
controlling the amount of expansion. Giveing maximum results to an
opponents body. Cast bullets in most cases simply whistle right on
through. A decent SWC with nice sharp shoulders, or full wad cutters
are the exceptions.
Pure lead starts to leave significant amounts of lead on the barrel
walls at 700 FPS -/+
(one notes that few black powder rifles actually have an exposed
ball..its protected by the wad during its flight down the barrel)
Wheel weight alloys, can be fired up to about 1300 FPS +/-
Heat treated they can be fired up to about 2200 FPS -/+
Lead/Antimony alloys can be fired up to about 2200 FPS +/-.....but they
are hard to get ahold of since Linotype printing presses have largely
disappeared.
This of course assumes proper gas checks, base wads etc etc.
Gunner Asch
wrote:
Indeed. However obduration even with soft alloys can be worked with if
the bullet is the proper oversize in many cases.
Gunner Asch
wrote:
<VBG>
Most folks dont know that lead alloys harden when quenched, and
brass/copper tend to go soft.
Metalurgy can be confusing to folks. Even to me!!
Wes
>
>"Wes" <clu...@lycos.com> wrote in message
>news:jVhkn.8266$rq1....@en-nntp-02.dc1.easynews.com...
>> Guy at work swore up and down that you have to quench non ferous metals to
>> get the softest
>> annealing.
>>
>> I've annealed case mouths on rifle cartridges standing in shallow water
>> and then tipped
>> them over into the water just to cool them. The standing water level
>> kept the case body
>> from being annealed. Was I missing something there? I'm thinking he is
>> FOS.
>>
>> Wes
>
>BTW, I may not have been clear about whether the guy at work is FOS. The
>answer is, yes, he is. <g>
I thought so.
>
>The grain-growth business only applies to very slow ramping down from very
>high temperatures -- like you'd use to anneal air-hardening steel. And the
>effect of that slow anneal would be to very slightly *soften* the metal as a
>result of grain growth. It has no relevance in this application.
>
>There will be no difference in hardness or grain size of your cartridge
>necks whether you let them cool in air or quench them in water. However, the
>water-tipping trick will help you confine the annealing to the area you
>want.
How does annealing and quenching work with aluminum? I remember trying to use some 2xxx
aluminum a few years ago to see if I could squeeze a ball bearing between two pieces in
order to make a bullet mold. Heating and air cooling did make the material softer, just
not enough.
Might as well nail down aluminum in case he shifts his ground a bit.
Wes
Ed Huntress
This is a bit oversimplified, but it's the basic story. Non-heat-treatable
alloys (1000, 3000, 5000 series) are similar to yellow brass: you heat them
to around the crystallization temperature (around 620 deg. F), as fast or
slow as you want, and you quench them, as fast or slow as you want. You'll
get a half-hard temper (H-2) or something above or below it if you just
touch the recystallization temperature. Like brass, a full anneal (O-temper
for aluminum) requires heating *above* the recrystallization temperature
(650 deg. F, in this case). Again, it doesn't matter how fast you quench it.
For heat-treatable alloys (2000, 6000, and 7000 Series), you get roughly the
same result. BUT -- and this is a big "but" -- if you don't heat them well
above the recrystallization temperature (to 775 deg. F), soak them at that
temperature for a while (2 or 3 hours), and cool them at a rate of roughly
50 deg. F per hour, they will re-harden over time through the age-hardening
process. That happens because of natural precipitation hardening. To get a
full O-temper, you have to go through the high heat and temperature ramping
stages for cooling. Done right, that will prevent precipitation hardening.
BTW, I've done the ball-bearing trick with 2024, and got the same result as
you. I described it at length here a number of years ago, in a message to
Gunner. I had to whack the hell out of the two mold halves with a 3-pound
maul, on an anvil, to fill out the shape of the ball.
Also BTW, there is no area of metalworking that I know of that is more
subject to myths and old wives' tales than heat treatment. That's especially
true with anything to do with guns and knives, although I think the knife
guys are a lot better at it than the gun guys. Practical experience is great
and is not to be discounted, but be wary of conclusions about what it
actually being accomplished by one treatment or another. It ain't
necessarily so.
--
Ed Huntress
Bill Noble
"Ed Huntress" <hunt...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:4b92dd41$0$31281$607e...@cv.net...
useful information snipped
>
> Also BTW, there is no area of metalworking that I know of that is more
> subject to myths and old wives' tales than heat treatment. That's
> especially true with anything to do with guns and knives, although I think
> the knife guys are a lot better at it than the gun guys. Practical
> experience is great and is not to be discounted, but be wary of
> conclusions about what it actually being accomplished by one treatment or
> another. It ain't necessarily so.
>
> --
> Ed Huntress
you mean that the part about plunging the red hot sword blade into the belly
of a fat eunuch for the best toughness isn't true? Eunuchs worldwide will
sing your praises.
Ed Huntress
"Bill Noble" <nob...@nowhere.invalid> wrote in message
news:hmun3o$hjo$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Thank God, because they're an endangered species. Their reproduction rate is
terrible. <g>
--
Ed Huntress
Doug White
news:Xns9D334F2A4AB8All...@216.168.3.70:
So is lead shot for shotguns. It deforms less on firing, and results in a
cleaner pattern. All shot I've ever seen for reloading is "chilled".
Doug White
Wes
>> you mean that the part about plunging the red hot sword blade into the
>> belly of a fat eunuch for the best toughness isn't true? Eunuchs
>> worldwide will sing your praises.
>
>Thank God, because they're an endangered species. Their reproduction rate is
>terrible. <g>
I wish I could give the reference but some unfortunate souls were used at some point in
time. Bill isn't FOS on that one. I'd never want to rely on a weapon that took an
innocent life to defend me. Talk about bad Karma!
Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller
Ed Huntress
Well, you should also know that the most powerful gunpowder, in the 16th
century or so, was alleged to be that which was moistened with the urine of
a wine drinker. <g>
--
Ed Huntress
Larry Jaques
<joeg...@comcast.net> scrawled the following:
>In article <p5q3p51bdmkranlm3...@4ax.com>,
> Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 05 Mar 2010 20:12:59 -0500, Joseph Gwinn <joeg...@comcast.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >In article <jVhkn.8266$rq1....@en-nntp-02.dc1.easynews.com>,
>> > Wes <clu...@lycos.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Guy at work swore up and down that you have to quench non ferous metals to
>> >> get the softest
>> >> annealing.
>> >>
>> >> I've annealed case mouths on rifle cartridges standing in shallow water
>> >> and
>> >> then tipped
>> >> them over into the water just to cool them. The standing water level
>> >> kept
>> >> the case body
>> >> from being annealed. Was I missing something there? I'm thinking he is
>> >> FOS.
>> >
>> >No, he's right: You quench ferrous alloys to harden and non-ferrous alloys
>> >to anneal. Not that copper and brass are that fussy.
>> >
>> >Joe Gwinn
>>
>> So lead is a ferrous alloy?
>
>Must be ...
Either that, or it was Ferrous Beuller's Day Off.
>Can't say that I was thinking about lead and its alloys. The above rule of
>thumb covered common metals that exhibit elastic behavior over some range of
>stress and strain. Unlike lead, indium, and the like.
Indium makes hellacious tanks! (Or so Colonel Hammer says. ;)
sta...@prolynx.com
> Guy at work swore up and down that you have to quench non ferous metals to get the softest
> annealing.
>
> I've annealed case mouths on rifle cartridges standing in shallow water and then tipped
> them over into the water just to cool them. The standing water level kept the case body
> from being annealed. Was I missing something there? I'm thinking he is FOS.
>
Which nonferrous metals? Aluminum is not silver which is not brass/
copper which is not lead or its alloys. And none of those is
platinum, iridium, tungsten, cobalt or nickel. They all have their
own quirks.
Grain growth in brass has nothing to do with quenching, which is what
you're doing with brass annealing. The water just keeps things from
going too far, as you say. And solution hardening aluminum alloys are
hardened by heating, they'd age-harden eventually, but it just speeds
things up. No quenching involved. Without knowing what metal(s) he's
talking about, it's hard to say.
Stan
Paul Hovnanian P.E.
It also reduces the likelihood of burning yourself if you subsequently pick
up the wrong part bare handed.
Don't ask me how I know. :-/
--
Paul Hovnanian pa...@hovnanian.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Have gnu, will travel.
Paul Hovnanian P.E.
Eunuchs are getting pretty scarce. Everyone seems to be running Windows
these days.
--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:Pa...@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
politics; n, from the Greek 'poly' meaning many and 'ticks', small
annoying blood suckers.
Wes
>> you mean that the part about plunging the red hot sword blade into the belly
>> of a fat eunuch for the best toughness isn't true? Eunuchs worldwide will
>> sing your praises.
>
>Eunuchs are getting pretty scarce. Everyone seems to be running Windows
>these days.
>
Well, fat cat politicians might have some redeaming use.
Wes
Paul Hovnanian P.E.
>
> "Ed Huntress" <hunt...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
> >> you mean that the part about plunging the red hot sword blade into the
> >> belly of a fat eunuch for the best toughness isn't true? Eunuchs
> >> worldwide will sing your praises.
> >
> >Thank God, because they're an endangered species. Their reproduction rate is
> >terrible. <g>
>
> I wish I could give the reference but some unfortunate souls were used at some point in
> time. Bill isn't FOS on that one. I'd never want to rely on a weapon that took an
> innocent life to defend me. Talk about bad Karma!
Samurai swords used to be rated "one body", "two bodies". Based upon how
many bodies they could slice through in one swing.
Working in the sword factory QA department must have been quite a mess.
--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:Pa...@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
Experience is the worst teacher. It always gives the test
first and the instruction afterward.
Michael A. Terrell
Have plenty of fire extinguishers on hand, in case of a flash fire
from all that fat. ;-)
--
Lead free solder is Belgium's version of 'Hold my beer and watch this!'