Manufacturing is BOOMING in USA
Ignoramus23298
Manufacturing Expands World-Wide
Best month of activity in USA in six years, makes my search for an
investment in a warehouse, possibly, even too late, although
realistically I still have a chance. My own opinion, mostly based on
liquidation auction prices for equipment that is usable in modern
production (as opposed to clapped out 50 year old manual lathes), is
that we are about to see sharp economic growth.
U.S. factory operators saw their best month of activity in nearly six
years during March. The Institute for Supply Management reported
Thursday that its index of manufacturing activity for March moved to a
reading of 59.6, from 56.5 the month before and 58.4 in
January. March's level was above the 57.0 economists had expected to
see, and it was the highest reading since July 2004. Readings over 50
indicate growth.
I do think that "Obama haters" , who succumbed to pessimism because of
who is in the White House, are making a big mistake in not recognizing
that this country has every potential to be a great economic and
industrial machine. We are now in a bull stock market by any standard,
and are seeing improvements in both growth and productivity. If this
continues, the United States will see a lot of incremental tax
revenues from additional economic activity and capital gains, and that
alone could be a big help to reduce budget deficit.
"Obama policies", which anyone should be free to like or not like, do
not fundamentally change the fact that we are a dynamic, capitalist
economy. In fact, availability of health insurance may help someone to
move towards self-employment.
i
Hawke
Don't try to tell right wingers that anything Obama is doing is working,
is good policy, is successful, or is the right thing to do. They
continue to believe in the tried and failed policies that Bush and the
republicans stand for, and that they put in place when Bush was
president. What's scary is that they want another chance to implement
the exact same failed policies again. They have simply not learned that
what they believed was wrong. So don't try to tell them Obama's way of
doing things is good. They won't hear of it. They're wedded to failed
policies and that's that. Now the rest of the normal people are all
starting to see what you see and what I have already said before, things
are turning around and we are beginning a new phase of positive economic
growth. Just be happy we're coming out of the Bush debacle and are
moving ahead once again and make some moves that allow you to profit
from seeing the obvious.
Hawke
Pete C.
Unfortunately, nobody left or right can admit when their policies have
failed, and mostly nobody can even correlate their policies and the
actual results since there is such a long lag time before they typically
have any effect. This is of course why everything is cyclic.
RBnDFW
Of course there's lag time.
The Bush policies are finally starting to yield positive results.
Of course, BHO's lackeys won't be giving Bush credit.
Ed Huntress
"RBnDFW" <burkh...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:hp2sch$9t$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Just one question here: Are you completely out of your freaking mind?
--
Ed Huntress
Gunner Asch
Chuckle...wait the the Commerical Real Estate Crunch hits.
Want to start a manufacturing business? Come out to California.
Lots and lots of existing shops here, where the owners simply walked
away from the building, leaving all the machinery(unpaid for), all the
tools (unpaid for) and all the piles of completed work (unpaid for)
still sitting in the shipping dock.
Ill bet you could get a complete shop for simply walking in the front
door.
Course..you better have at least 4 yrs worth of expense money in the
bank.....
Gunner
"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.
This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost
Steve Lusardi
I'm amazed by your statement. When was the last time any product in the stores said "Made in the USA"? There is virtually no
serious manufacturing left in the States. You don't need statistics to witness this and in point of fact, without seeing US
products on the shelves, you have absolutely no justification for believing them. The same thing is happening in Europe and Japan.
We have already exported almost all of our manufacturing to the third world to remain competitive in the world market. Don't
believe the shit you read....look on the shelves.
Steve
"Ignoramus23298" <ignoram...@NOSPAM.23298.invalid> wrote in message news:zYOdncunztxdSinW...@giganews.com...
F. George McDuffee
<aux3....@snet.net> wrote:
<snip>
>Unfortunately, nobody left or right can admit when their policies have
>failed, and mostly nobody can even correlate their policies and the
>actual results since there is such a long lag time before they typically
>have any effect. This is of course why everything is cyclic.
-------
Actually there has been considerable academic analytical work
done in this area. The field is called "econometrics," and when
the political party affiliation of the president, legislature,
etc. are included, generally as dummy or indicator variable (e.g.
Democrats = 0, Republicans = 1) it is called "political
econometrics."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Econometrics
http://www.oswego.edu/~kane/econometrics/
http://www.econometrics.org/
http://www.politicaleconometrics.com/
http://www.card.iastate.edu/publications/synopsis.aspx?id=970
http://ageconsearch.umn.edu/bitstream/50306/2/Political%20Economy%20of%20Distortions%20to%20Agricultural%20Incentives-%20Agricultural%20Distortions%20Working%20Paper%2091,%20May%202009.pdf
http://ageconsearch.umn.edu/bitstream/50294/2/Special%20Insterests%20vs%20Public%20interest%20,%20Agricultural%20Distortions%20working%20Paper%2078,%20may,%202009%20.pdf
and my own web page
http://www.mcduffee-associates.us/PE/Econometrics.htm
Some knowledge of statistical techniques is required to
understand the methodology, such as multi-variant
regression/analysis or canonical analysis, but the advent of
inexpensive computer programs such as WinStat [an Excel add-in]
and even some "free" programs has greatly simplified the
calculations required.
The party affiliation/control of the presidency/legislature can
easily be shifted to reflect lag time of policy changes or going
the other direction, the effect of economic factors on the
election outcomes.
The problem is that the reported results generally indicate that
most, if not all, of the conventional socio-economic/political
wisdom is wrong, and most of the credos, dogmas and shibboleths
of [political] ideology, where these can be put into testable
form and where data exists (which is too frequently *NOT* the
case), are not [or are no longer] correct. Naturally this puts a
very considerable knot in the politicians and talk show hosts
pantyhose, so neither (political) econometrics nor its findings
are widely reported or employed. Generally what is discovered
is that there is no correlation, which greatly simplifies the
analysis (i.e. no need to do any analysis if no correlation), for
example the (widely assumed) increase in aggregate unemployment
with an increase in the CY$ [current year] or CV$ [inflation
adjusted] minimum wage. [Before the flame wars start, more than
likely there is some threshold where an effect would be seen, but
historically the increases have been below this threshold, and
indeed below the rate of inflation.]
Unka George (George McDuffee)
..............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).
Tim Wescott
(top posting fixed)
> "Ignoramus23298" <ignoram...@NOSPAM.23298.invalid> wrote in message
> news:zYOdncunztxdSinW...@giganews.com...
>> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303960604575157701739806306.html
>>
>
> Iggy,
> I'm amazed by your statement. When was the last time any product in the
> stores said "Made in the USA"? There is virtually no serious
> manufacturing left in the States. You don't need statistics to witness
> this and in point of fact, without seeing US products on the shelves,
> you have absolutely no justification for believing them. The same thing
> is happening in Europe and Japan. We have already exported almost all of
> our manufacturing to the third world to remain competitive in the world
> market. Don't believe the shit you read....look on the shelves.
> Steve
>
For an alternate set of data, consider my customer list -- with a few
exceptions, I do all of my work for US manufacturing companies, and they
support me very well indeed. No one hires a design consultant if they
don't intend to be manufacturing what the guy designs, and relatively
soon. While my business isn't booming it's certainly picking up
steadily but slowly.
--
Tim Wescott
Control system and signal processing consulting
www.wescottdesign.com
Ignoramus23298
>
> Don't try to tell right wingers that anything Obama is doing is working,
> is good policy, is successful, or is the right thing to do. They
> continue to believe in the tried and failed policies that Bush and the
> republicans stand for, and that they put in place when Bush was
> president. What's scary is that they want another chance to implement
> the exact same failed policies again. They have simply not learned that
> what they believed was wrong. So don't try to tell them Obama's way of
> doing things is good. They won't hear of it. They're wedded to failed
> policies and that's that. Now the rest of the normal people are all
> starting to see what you see and what I have already said before, things
> are turning around and we are beginning a new phase of positive economic
> growth. Just be happy we're coming out of the Bush debacle and are
> moving ahead once again and make some moves that allow you to profit
> from seeing the obvious.
I thin that being as partisan as you are, leads to making the same
mistakes as what the "Obama haters" are making, which is failure to
consider reality due to too much prejudices.
The reality is that, Obama or not, the United States is built on a
flexible, and solid, foundation of free enterprise, relative fairness,
competition and well honest educated, labor force with great work
ethic.
What Bush administration and most everyone else missed, was that due
to proliferation of shadow banking, the economy was again susceptible
to banking panics.
Where the Federal Reserve and Obama administration succeeded, is in
credibly convincing the markets that they will not allow a Depression
style calamity, no matter what deficit they would need to run. That
worked and our economy is returning to sensible functioning.
The administration of President Bush gets some, but very little,
credit for this.
In any case, I urge everyone to thin more about the future than about
the past. What is the likely fture that awaits us, what are the
dangers or risks, etc.
My expectation is for a general recovery and decent growth and modest
reduction of unemployment rate. That should help bring deficits closer
to sustainable levels.
With all of this in mind, and the prices where I hope to be, I would
hope be able to find some little industrial style investment of my
own. What I do not plan on doing is speculating on currencies,
interest rates, and other things. I also do not plan on leveraging
myself in a dangerous way.
i
Ignoramus23298
>
> Unfortunately, nobody left or right can admit when their policies have
> failed, and mostly nobody can even correlate their policies and the
> actual results since there is such a long lag time before they typically
> have any effect. This is of course why everything is cyclic.
This is very wise, actually.
i
Snag
> Iggy,
> I'm amazed by your statement. When was the last time any product in
> the stores said "Made in the USA"? There is virtually no serious
> manufacturing left in the States. You don't need statistics to
> witness this and in point of fact, without seeing US products on the
> shelves, you have absolutely no justification for believing them. The
> same thing is happening in Europe and Japan. We have already exported
> almost all of our manufacturing to the third world to remain
> competitive in the world market. Don't believe the shit you
> read....look on the shelves. Steve
Or the unemployment lines . I'll believe there's progress being made when
the job situation changes .
--
Snag
"90 FLHTCU "Strider"
'39 WLDD "PopCycle"
BS 132/SENS/DOF
Jim Wilkins
associates.us> wrote:
> ...
> The problem is that the reported results generally indicate that
> most, if not all, of the conventional socio-economic/political
> wisdom is wrong, and most of the credos, dogmas and shibboleths
> of [political] ideology, where these can be put into testable
> form and where data exists (which is too frequently *NOT* the
>
> Unka George (George McDuffee)
Does it support my hypothesis that ONLY the price of oil controls the
world's economies?
jsw
Ignoramus23298
> The Bush policies are finally starting to yield positive results.
> Of course, BHO's lackeys won't be giving Bush credit.
Recall the timeline of the events. The crisis hit us in the late
September of 2008, on the eights year of Bush presidency.
The response to it was mostly worked out only by the end of
October. Significant money still was not spent by the end of Bush
presidency.
I would not, therefore, give Bush administration much credit, though
they deserve a small amount of credit.
i
Ignoramus23298
>
> Chuckle...wait the the Commerical Real Estate Crunch hits.
>
> Want to start a manufacturing business? Come out to California.
>
> Lots and lots of existing shops here, where the owners simply walked
> away from the building, leaving all the machinery(unpaid for), all the
> tools (unpaid for) and all the piles of completed work (unpaid for)
> still sitting in the shipping dock.
>
> Ill bet you could get a complete shop for simply walking in the front
> door.
>
> Course..you better have at least 4 yrs worth of expense money in the
> bank.....
I do not want to own a manufacturing business because I will mess it
up.
However, I welcome the commercial real estate collapse because I want
to buy commercial (industrial) real estate to rent to manufacturing
businesses.
Ultimately, the collapse of commercial real estate is good for buyers
and renters of real estate, which means it is good for companies that
look to expand and buy into new space.
If I could buy a collapsed company (assets only, no liabilites) I
could sell off the equipment to help finance the purchase. Right now,
the prices for industrial equipment that is still usable for modern
shops, are increasing again. That's why I realized a few weeks earlier
that we'll have a good uptick in manufacturing - someone is buying
this stuff to expand on the cheap.
i
co_f...@yahoo.com
> Steve Lusardi wrote:
>
> >news:zYOdncunztxdSinW...@giganews.com...
> >>http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405270230396060457515770173980...
>
> (referenced article snipped)
>
>
>
> > Iggy,
> > I'm amazed by your statement. When was the last time any product in the
> > stores said "Made in the USA"? There is virtually no serious
> > manufacturing left in the States. You don't need statistics to witness
> > this and in point of fact, without seeing US products on the shelves,
> > you have absolutely no justification for believing them. The same thing
> > is happening in Europe and Japan. We have already exported almost all of
> > our manufacturing to the third world to remain competitive in the world
> > market. Don't believe the shit you read....look on the shelves.
> > Steve
> >
> For an alternate set of data, consider my customer list -- with a few
> exceptions, I do all of my work for US manufacturing companies, and they
> support me very well indeed. No one hires a design consultant if they
> don't intend to be manufacturing what the guy designs, and relatively
> soon. While my business isn't booming it's certainly picking up
> steadily but slowly.
>
> --
> Tim Wescott
> Control system and signal processing consultingwww.wescottdesign.com
I see the same thing on the manufacturing end, Tim. Our orders keep
increasing every month. New circuit board designs as well as old
production. My GM made a delivery this morning of GPS boards. The
customer had two pallets of finished electronic assemblies ready to
ship TO China!!!
Our big problem is component availability. Many distributors list a
component with stock on hand and then call and say oops, bin is empty
and factory says they will deliver in 6-8 weeks. Meantime, we have to
pay for all the rest of the components now and wait till the stray
arrives. Then one pops up that gives us a December 15 delivery date.
The Chinese way of saying they will NEVER make that transformer again.
Overall, things in manufacturing are getting much better than 2009.
Paul
Richard W.
"Ignoramus23298" <ignoram...@NOSPAM.23298.invalid> wrote in message
news:zYOdncunztxdSinW...@giganews.com...
This is the worst I have seen it in awhile. I was laid off in Oct. and I am
about to run out of unemployment. Sales went from 4.5 million a month to 1.5
and I was one of many let go. I thought I was safe with almost 13 years into
a big company. I think part of the reason is my age and being diabetic for
not getting another job. Having a steel plate holding my head up doesn't
help much either. Last time I was out of work it was for 9 days before I got
another good paying job.
All I can do is keep trying to find another job and wait and see what
happens with the economy. Only time will tell if our leader is good or bad.
Richard W.
Tim Wescott
I deeply admire folks that can keep a manufacturing operation running
smoothly, and I'm deeply grateful that they're out there and enjoy doing it.
Because I've been there, I've done that, and if you asked me to do it
again I'd have to run away screaming.
RBnDFW
where'd you say that smiley collection was?
F. George McDuffee
=============
A very good question, but one that illustrates the limitations,
i.e.
>> most of the credos, dogmas and shibboleths
>> of [political] ideology, ==>where these can be put into testable
>> form and where data exists<== (which is too frequently *NOT* the
>> case),
===========
The big problem is phrasing or stating your question in a
concise, testable and consensual format.
Two immediate problems (there are most likely many others)
(1) What does the price of oil mean? If US dollars, then CY or
inflation adjusted, if not US dollars what? Euros, Yen, or
gold/silver?
(2) What metric should we use for the world's economies? Average
unemployment rate? Median unemployment rate? Absolute or percent
change in GDP? How should the data be weighted? By population
[China rules]? By percent of GWP (gross world product) generated?
[USA rules] Un weighted? [Luxembourg = China or USA]
Foreign exchange/conversion rates have a huge effect on this
question. Should we use the trading exchange rates or the PPP
[parity purchasing power] equivalents?
FWIW -- The price of oil appears to have a big effect in some
economies such as the US, while commodity price rises in
agricultural products such as rice, may have a major effect in
the less developed countries. What is unusual from the free
market "supply and demand" perspective is the current run-up of
oil prices to c. 85$US/bbl with no significant increase in global
consumption, no significant increase in the cost of production,
and no fall in aggregate supply. This appears to indicate major
market manipulation and profiteering.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aBbjr6rE0Mcs
http://www.proactiveinvestors.com.au/companies/news/6163/oil-kicks-to-new-high-despite-higher-inventories--6163.html
http://www.upstreamonline.com/live/article210754.ece?WT.mc_id=rechargenews_rss
http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/5520852-oil-price-soared-above-84-dollars-a-barrel
http://www.businessinsider.com/opec-dying-to-convince-the-world-it-can-still-maintin-80-oil-2010-3
RogerN
Awesome! How many manufacturing jobs are they moving from China to the USA?
RogerN
"Ignoramus23298" <ignoram...@NOSPAM.23298.invalid> wrote in message
news:zYOdncunztxdSinW...@giganews.com...
> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303960604575157701739806306.html
>
pyotr filipivich
about Thu, 01 Apr 2010 13:20:55 -0700 did write/type or cause to
appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
>
>>"Obama policies", which anyone should be free to like or not like, do
>>not fundamentally change the fact that we are a dynamic, capitalist
>>economy. In fact, availability of health insurance may help someone to
>>move towards self-employment.
>>
>>i
>
>Chuckle...wait the the Commerical Real Estate Crunch hits.
>
>Want to start a manufacturing business? Come out to California.
>
>Lots and lots of existing shops here, where the owners simply walked
>away from the building, leaving all the machinery(unpaid for), all the
>tools (unpaid for) and all the piles of completed work (unpaid for)
>still sitting in the shipping dock.
>
>Ill bet you could get a complete shop for simply walking in the front
>door.
>
>Course..you better have at least 4 yrs worth of expense money in the
>bank.....
Which leads me to the question, how long would it take to rig such
an enterprise onto transportation to another location, one which might
be considered more business friendly?
tschus
pyotr
p.s. Yes, I am remembering the bit in a post-ww3 novel, where one
group of SEALS basically pulled an unused train up to their base and
loaded everything onto it that wasn't nailed down, they pried up
everything else. "Never know, It could be useful someday..."
"We're not pack-rats. We are 'Rodents of extreme acquisition and
retention'."
-
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!
Jim Wilkins
> ...What is unusual from the free
> market "supply and demand" perspective is the current run-up of
> oil prices to c. 85$US/bbl with no significant increase in global
> consumption, no significant increase in the cost of production,
> and no fall in aggregate supply. This appears to indicate major
> Unka George (George McDuffee)
Not only oil, prices in general have been pushing upwards as much as
demand permits. How much have you seen On Sale since Christmas?
WalMart clothing has gone up a lot.
http://www.wtrg.com/oil_graphs/oilprice1947.gif
The price spikes were followed by recessions, reflected in the rapid
drops.
Perhaps the one to analyse for manipulation is the sharp rise in June
2000, shortly before the end of Clinton's term and seemingly not
obscured by concurrent political events.
By October it was being blamed on Bush.
jsw
John R. Carroll
> On 2010-04-01, RBnDFW <burkh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> The Bush policies are finally starting to yield positive results.
>> Of course, BHO's lackeys won't be giving Bush credit.
>
> Recall the timeline of the events. The crisis hit us in the late
> September of 2008, on the eights year of Bush presidency.
The crisis had been in the works for nearly two years at that point with
Congress passing the first of several spending measures on January 25th (?)
2008.
Looks like the stimulus payments will be sent out ahead of schedule, with
the 800,000 direct deposit payments on Monday April 28th, Tuesday,
Wednesday, and a whopping 5 million on Friday (none on Thursday). The
schedule of payments will follow the original schedule, just accelerated by
a week.
IIRC, the cost was 130 billion dollars.
--
John R. Carroll
F. George McDuffee
<ph...@mindspring.com> wrote:
<snip>
> Which leads me to the question, how long would it take to rig such
>an enterprise onto transportation to another location, one which might
>be considered more business friendly?
=========
While governmental/community attitude may be a part of the
problem, from what I can tell from the auction listings, a much
larger problem is the prevalence of obsolete/obsolescent
machinery which are most likely not worth the money to move for a
high volume commercial operation. Even if the equipment is in
pristine condition, if it is a generation (or more) old, quite
likely it is not worth moving to a new commercial location.
When a shop is filled with obsolete and/or "clapped out"
equipment, the odds are very high that the front office is
similarly "equipped," e.g. no CRM [customer relations management
software], no production scheduling software, no P/M software, no
A/R-A/P (accounts payable-accounts receivable software), no job
costing/tracking software, no or minimal CNC/cad software,
minimal tool crib controls, slow or no internet connections, no
web page, etc.
It may be possible to cherry pick from several shops and assemble
a decent commercial operation, but there is a reason that the
bankrupt shops went bankrupt.
RogerN
"John R. Carroll" <nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote in message
news:H_udneErx7GYryjW...@giganews.com...
> Ignoramus23298 wrote:
>> On 2010-04-01, RBnDFW <burkh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> The Bush policies are finally starting to yield positive results.
>>> Of course, BHO's lackeys won't be giving Bush credit.
>>
>> Recall the timeline of the events. The crisis hit us in the late
>> September of 2008, on the eights year of Bush presidency.
>
> The crisis had been in the works for nearly two years at that point with
> Congress passing the first of several spending measures on January 25th
> (?)
> 2008.
Sounds about right, the crisis hit when the Democrats won big in the
election in 2006 and took a turn for the worse when Obama pulled ahead in
the polls around Sept 2008. No wonder the Bible says the "Fool" has said
there is no God, you Atheists prove the Bible correct time after time and
you don't even know it!
RogerN
anorton
"RogerN" <re...@midwest.net> wrote in message
news:lYadnfSUZMMGtCjW...@earthlink.com...
>
> Awesome! How many manufacturing jobs are they moving from China to the
> USA?
>
> RogerN
>
One of my clients ( www.esystemstechnology.com ) recently won a contract to
manufacture equipment that had been built in China. In the high-tech world,
engineering skill, quality and reliability trumps a few bucks in price.
In my experience there is much more engineering work this year than last.
Gunner Asch
<ph...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>Let the Record show that Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com> on or
>about Thu, 01 Apr 2010 13:20:55 -0700 did write/type or cause to
>appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
>>
>>>"Obama policies", which anyone should be free to like or not like, do
>>>not fundamentally change the fact that we are a dynamic, capitalist
>>>economy. In fact, availability of health insurance may help someone to
>>>move towards self-employment.
>>>
>>>i
>>
>>Chuckle...wait the the Commerical Real Estate Crunch hits.
>>
>>Want to start a manufacturing business? Come out to California.
>>
>>Lots and lots of existing shops here, where the owners simply walked
>>away from the building, leaving all the machinery(unpaid for), all the
>>tools (unpaid for) and all the piles of completed work (unpaid for)
>>still sitting in the shipping dock.
>>
>>Ill bet you could get a complete shop for simply walking in the front
>>door.
>>
>>Course..you better have at least 4 yrs worth of expense money in the
>>bank.....
>
> Which leads me to the question, how long would it take to rig such
>an enterprise onto transportation to another location, one which might
>be considered more business friendly?
>
That is what some of the folks are doing. Some saw the California
economy going south a couple years ago, so sold their homes and business
locations, and bought raw land in Idaho, and other states. One client of
mine sold his house for $350k, and sold his shop local for $850k
He moved to Idaho, bought 25 acres, had a brand new house built, had a
Butler Building erected..all for less than $250k, moved his machines up
for $50k and now has more than $900k in the bank, a fully functional
machine shop in operation and is happy as a clam.
Not everyone was that smart, or able to do that, unfortunately. Too
many forgot that the client was UPS away, or for the odd ones..needed to
be near their clients.
Now that the housing market bottom has fallen out..and the Commercial
Real Estate crunch is on the close horizon....that option may no longer
be available.
Gunner
>tschus
>pyotr
>
>p.s. Yes, I am remembering the bit in a post-ww3 novel, where one
>group of SEALS basically pulled an unused train up to their base and
>loaded everything onto it that wasn't nailed down, they pried up
>everything else. "Never know, It could be useful someday..."
>
>"We're not pack-rats. We are 'Rodents of extreme acquisition and
>retention'."
>
>
>-
>pyotr filipivich
>We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
>It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!
Gunner Asch
Unfortunately..most (of what Ive seen so far) of the shops that went
bankrupt here in California..was that their clients went tits up first.
But you do make a good point.
Gunner
>
>
>Unka George (George McDuffee)
>..............................
>The past is a foreign country;
>they do things differently there.
>L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
>The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).
Larry Jaques
<steve...@lusardi.de> scrawled the following:
>Iggy,
>I'm amazed by your statement. When was the last time any product in the stores said "Made in the USA"? There is virtually no
>serious manufacturing left in the States. You don't need statistics to witness this and in point of fact, without seeing US
>products on the shelves, you have absolutely no justification for believing them. The same thing is happening in Europe and Japan.
>We have already exported almost all of our manufacturing to the third world to remain competitive in the world market. Don't
>believe the shit you read....look on the shelves.
Steve, I dare you to spend an hour in Walmart and NOT find at least a
hundred "Made in the USA" stickers on items. Manufacturing is still
alive and well here, but the mass production has gone entirely
overseas. Other companies are having things produced elsewhere and
assembled here, with our labor.
Virtually ALL of the small, custom items are still made here. Much
low-volume/high-technology stuff is made here, etc.
Don't write us off entirely.
Hell, my glare guards are made here in Oregon...by me, using as many
domestic products as possible. www.diversify.com/shades2.html
Volume? We won't discuss that. <sigh>
--
It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent,
but the one most responsive to change.
-- Charles Darwin
Hawke
>>> not fundamentally change the fact that we are a dynamic, capitalist
>>> economy. In fact, availability of health insurance may help someone to
>>> move towards self-employment.
>>>
>>> i
>>
>> is good policy, is successful, or is the right thing to do. They
>> continue to believe in the tried and failed policies that Bush and the
>> republicans stand for, and that they put in place when Bush was
>> president. What's scary is that they want another chance to implement
>> the exact same failed policies again. They have simply not learned that
>> what they believed was wrong. So don't try to tell them Obama's way of
>> doing things is good. They won't hear of it. They're wedded to failed
>> policies and that's that. Now the rest of the normal people are all
>> starting to see what you see and what I have already said before, things
>> are turning around and we are beginning a new phase of positive economic
>> growth. Just be happy we're coming out of the Bush debacle and are
>> moving ahead once again and make some moves that allow you to profit
>> from seeing the obvious.
>>
>> Hawke
>
> Unfortunately, nobody left or right can admit when their policies have
> failed, and mostly nobody can even correlate their policies and the
> actual results since there is such a long lag time before they typically
> have any effect. This is of course why everything is cyclic.
I agree with you that political parties don't want to admit when their
policies fail. But that is why you don't go to them if you want to know
if they succeeded or failed. You look at the facts and statistics. Just
look at the economic statistics under Bush. You don't have to ask anyone
if they are good or not. It's obvious they are horrible. Now you have to
give Obama the time to see if his are any good. He's been there a little
more than a year. A year ago the stock market was at 6600 and the growth
rate was -6%, and unemployment was around 10%. Needless to say, things
are much better. Just look at the stats. But Obama needs more time
before you can actually credit him for the turn around. Usually it takes
at least 2 or 3 years to see how your policies work. By 2011 or 2012
we're really know how Obama did. But I know that no matter how poorly or
how well he does it'll be better than Bush.
Hawke
Hawke
>>> Unfortunately, nobody left or right can admit when their policies have
>>> failed, and mostly nobody can even correlate their policies and the
>>> actual results since there is such a long lag time before they typically
>>> have any effect. This is of course why everything is cyclic.
>>
>> Of course, BHO's lackeys won't be giving Bush credit.
>
>
I was just wondering why he wasn't giving Reagan the credit for the
positive results.
Hawke
Larry Jaques
<ignoram...@NOSPAM.23298.invalid> scrawled the following:
>On 2010-04-01, Hawke <davesm...@digitalpath.net> wrote:
What the hell are you quoting HIM for?
>I thin that being as partisan as you are, leads to making the same
>mistakes as what the "Obama haters" are making, which is failure to
>consider reality due to too much prejudices.
Your term "Obama haters" isn't quite correct. Most of us don't hate
the man himself, we dislike what he stands for: liberalism, bigotry
(as affirmative action), and socialism/HUGE government.
>The reality is that, Obama or not, the United States is built on a
>flexible, and solid, foundation of free enterprise, relative fairness,
>competition and well honest educated, labor force with great work
>ethic.
Except where unions and greed (or do I repeat myself?) come in, that's
very true.
>What Bush administration and most everyone else missed, was that due
>to proliferation of shadow banking, the economy was again susceptible
>to banking panics.
So our Chief puts the guy responsible for that in charge of the
treasury. <sigh>
>Where the Federal Reserve and Obama administration succeeded, is in
>credibly convincing the markets that they will not allow a Depression
>style calamity, no matter what deficit they would need to run. That
>worked and our economy is returning to sensible functioning.
Gee, that's good to hear, Ig. Saaaay, I'd like to sell you some
warehouse space in the Everglades. Got a minute?
>The administration of President Bush gets some, but very little,
>credit for this.
>
>In any case, I urge everyone to thin more about the future than about
>the past. What is the likely fture that awaits us, what are the
>dangers or risks, etc.
Oh, we are, Ig. We are!
>My expectation is for a general recovery and decent growth and modest
>reduction of unemployment rate. That should help bring deficits closer
>to sustainable levels.
What's Obama got to do with that? He is, if anything, slowing it with
his spending policies. Shrub's guilty of that, too. <big sigh>
>With all of this in mind, and the prices where I hope to be, I would
>hope be able to find some little industrial style investment of my
>own. What I do not plan on doing is speculating on currencies,
>interest rates, and other things. I also do not plan on leveraging
>myself in a dangerous way.
Good to hear.
Harold & Susan Vordos
"Ed Huntress" <hunt...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:4bb4ffa2$0$31272$607e...@cv.net...
>
> "RBnDFW" <burkh...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:hp2sch$9t$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>>> failed, and mostly nobody can even correlate their policies and the
>>> actual results since there is such a long lag time before they typically
>>> have any effect. This is of course why everything is cyclic.
>>
>> Of course there's lag time.
>> The Bush policies are finally starting to yield positive results.
>> Of course, BHO's lackeys won't be giving Bush credit.
>
> Just one question here: Are you completely out of your freaking mind?
>
> Ed Huntress
What I know and understand about politics wouldn't cover the bottom of a
very small thimble, but I have to ask, just as Ed did.
Are you out of your freaking mind? Ten years for Bush policies to start
working? Seems to me, they started working long ago. Why the hell do
you think we've been in the mess we've "enjoyed"?
Harold
RogerN
"anorton" <ano...@removethis.ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:pJadnS4Bk6-J1SjW...@earthlink.com...
That's good to hear. Sometimes I wonder if there's ever a WWIII, will the
USA be able to stand on our own manufacturing ability, or will we need to be
supplied by those we are at war with?
RogerN
RogerN
"Larry Jaques" <lja...@diversify.invalid> wrote in message
news:fmmar55n2cl4tp8qu...@4ax.com...
Do your glare guards make a TV screen viewable outdoors? I'm wondering
because one of my hobby projects is first person view R/C, mounting a camera
in a R/C model and operating it by viewing the picture on a TV/Monitor.
They have video goggles but they are running over $300 for the better
resolution (640 X 480) ones last time I looked.
RogerN
Wes
>Iggy,
>I'm amazed by your statement. When was the last time any product in the stores said "Made in the USA"? There is virtually no
>serious manufacturing left in the States. You don't need statistics to witness this and in point of fact, without seeing US
>products on the shelves, you have absolutely no justification for believing them. The same thing is happening in Europe and Japan.
>We have already exported almost all of our manufacturing to the third world to remain competitive in the world market. Don't
>believe the shit you read....look on the shelves.
>Steve
I work in the manufacturing sector. I was pretty thrilled the other day when a stud we
use that was purchased off shore was replaced by a USA made item. USA was able to make
the spec and do it for a competitive price.
I purchase a lot of things from McMaster-Carr, I've noticed over time, that a huge amount
of what they sell is produced in the USA. When it isn't, it is from nations like France,
Germany, and Japan. I seldom recieve Chineese products from that firm.
Manufacturing isn't dead yet, we just have a lot of competition that didn't exist not so
long ago. It is sorting itself out.
Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller
Wes
>All I can do is keep trying to find another job and wait and see what
>happens with the economy. Only time will tell if our leader is good or bad.
I wish you success in the job hunt. Back during 2001/02 I got a taste of going from
wanted and needed to needing to be wanted. It wasn't a pleasant experience though I think
I've grown from it.
Only time will tell on our leadership and then the view be subject to the distortion of
one's ideology.
Wes
Ned Simmons
wrote:
>Steve Lusardi wrote:
>(top posting fixed)
>> "Ignoramus23298" <ignoram...@NOSPAM.23298.invalid> wrote in message
>> news:zYOdncunztxdSinW...@giganews.com...
>>> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303960604575157701739806306.html
>>>
>(referenced article snipped)
>
>>
> > Iggy,
> > I'm amazed by your statement. When was the last time any product in the
> > stores said "Made in the USA"? There is virtually no serious
> > manufacturing left in the States. You don't need statistics to witness
> > this and in point of fact, without seeing US products on the shelves,
> > you have absolutely no justification for believing them. The same thing
> > is happening in Europe and Japan. We have already exported almost all of
> > our manufacturing to the third world to remain competitive in the world
> > market. Don't believe the shit you read....look on the shelves.
> > Steve
> >
>For an alternate set of data, consider my customer list -- with a few
>exceptions, I do all of my work for US manufacturing companies, and they
>support me very well indeed. No one hires a design consultant if they
>don't intend to be manufacturing what the guy designs, and relatively
>soon. While my business isn't booming it's certainly picking up
>steadily but slowly.
Only another anecdote, but my situation is similar. I design and build
automation, tooling, and misc manufacturing equipment. I ran out of
work for the first time in 25 years around the end of 2008. There's
been enough to keep busy since, but no backlog. More recently demand
has increased to the point that I've started refusing work again.
On the other hand, employment at my largest customer is still way
down, and the folks that are there are working harder than ever. In
other words, they're spending on capital projects, but seem to be
waiting as long as possible to rehire production workers.
--
Ned Simmons
RBnDFW
of course my statement was tongue in cheek, and the responses were
predictable.
We've beaten this dead horse to death, but I do have to point out
that the current political and economic quagmire we find ourselves in
has many roots, and many more pointed fingers, some justified, some not.
My conclusion, which is worth what you pay for it, is that our
leaders did some incredibly stupid things over a long period of time. I
think the Democrats did the most damage, but not by much.
Today, I don't know if the situation is salvageable. I am just going
to take care of myself and the people I care about, hope for the best,
plan for the worst.
And I'm going to be a lot more politically active.
Ignoramus23667
I believe that the US us able to make weapons, and such, but it lost
the ability to make networking components. Even the US government buys
China made Cisco equipment.
i
Ed Huntress
"Steve Lusardi" <steve...@lusardi.de> wrote in message
news:hp304q$nu0$02$1...@news.t-online.com...
> Iggy,
> I'm amazed by your statement. When was the last time any product in the
> stores said "Made in the USA"? There is virtually no serious manufacturing
> left in the States. You don't need statistics to witness this and in point
> of fact, without seeing US products on the shelves, you have absolutely no
> justification for believing them. The same thing is happening in Europe
> and Japan. We have already exported almost all of our manufacturing to the
> third world to remain competitive in the world market. Don't believe the
> shit you read....look on the shelves.
> Steve
Take a look at the detailed US manufacturing data (and the trade data, which
is another story) and you may be in for a shock, Steve. What you're seeing
on shelves is consumer products. They're the bottom end of manufacturing.
The US is doing very well in industrial and commercial products, and the
overall dollar figures of output keep climbing year after year. Of course,
during a recession, everything drops. But go back two years and look at the
decades-long trend.
I'll pull together some links if you have any trouble finding it.
--
Ed Huntress
>
> "Ignoramus23298" <ignoram...@NOSPAM.23298.invalid> wrote in message
> news:zYOdncunztxdSinW...@giganews.com...
Ignoramus23667
> I work in the manufacturing sector. I was pretty thrilled the other day when a stud we
> use that was purchased off shore was replaced by a USA made item. USA was able to make
> the spec and do it for a competitive price.
>
> I purchase a lot of things from McMaster-Carr, I've noticed over time, that a huge amount
> of what they sell is produced in the USA. When it isn't, it is from nations like France,
> Germany, and Japan. I seldom recieve Chineese products from that firm.
>
> Manufacturing isn't dead yet, we just have a lot of competition that didn't exist not so
> long ago. It is sorting itself out.
The way I interpret the auction sales that I go to, is that most of
the shops closing down are equipped with old technology. I have never
seen an outright modern CNC shop without mostly old or older stuff,
close down. This is a relatively recent realization. I used to call
what is happening "deindustrialization", but now I think that it is a
healthy process of modernization.
i
Ed Huntress
"Ignoramus23298" <ignoram...@NOSPAM.23298.invalid> wrote in message
>> Of course, BHO's lackeys won't be giving Bush credit.
>
> September of 2008, on the eights year of Bush presidency.
>
> October. Significant money still was not spent by the end of Bush
> presidency.
>
> I would not, therefore, give Bush administration much credit, though
> they deserve a small amount of credit.
>
> i
The basic moves were not a political issue. Stopping the collapse of the
international credit system was not political. Stimulating the economy with
deficit spending in a sharp recession is not political. As one of McCain's
top economic advisors said early last year, it wouldn't have mattered who
was in office. The things that the Bush administration did at the end, and
what the Obama administration has done since, are exactly what ANY president
would have had to do.
It's just real-world economics. NOW it's political, because it gives some
less-than-honest politicians a populist issue.
--
Ed Huntress
Ed Huntress
Roger, don't be an idiot. The Republicans blocked legislation 104 times in
the last Congress -- and that was counted before it was over.
There were no big economic policies enacted during that time, and none at
all that didn't have Republican support. So please quit playing your banjo
and take a look at what really happened.
--
Ed Huntress
Ed Huntress
> Ed Huntress wrote:
>> "RBnDFW" <burkh...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:hp2sch$9t$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>>> Pete C. wrote:
>>>> Hawke wrote:
>>>>> On 4/1/2010 10:28 AM, Ignoramus23298 wrote:
>>> Of course, BHO's lackeys won't be giving Bush credit.
>>
>
It's taken a beating lately. <g> What "Bush policies"? All he did was run an
improving economy on deficits -- a stupid thing initiated by Reagan -- and
let the theives rob us blind by avoiding regulation.
--
Ed Huntress
Joseph Gwinn
Ignoramus23667 <ignoram...@NOSPAM.23667.invalid> wrote:
Yes. See <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_destruction>.
Joe Gwinn
Wes
>> That's good to hear. Sometimes I wonder if there's ever a WWIII, will the
>> USA be able to stand on our own manufacturing ability, or will we need to be
>> supplied by those we are at war with?
>
>I believe that the US us able to make weapons, and such, but it lost
>the ability to make networking components. Even the US government buys
>China made Cisco equipment.
>
The idea of a Chinese produced router as part of a DOD network is scary as hell.
Your post had me wondering where Intel has chip fabrication located so I did a bit of
googling.
This link is a couple years old but I was pretty darn happy to see Intel doesn't have
fabrication plants in China. http://www.cpu-world.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9550
Wes
Stormin Mormon
weeks? Or, maybe the new IRS guys, and all the workers
mandated by the Health Care Deform?
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"RogerN" <re...@midwest.net> wrote in message
RogerN
Ok, now I understand, every time the Democrats win more seats, things go
further south and it's the Republicans fault. So now Obama stole more of
the economy from our kids, our future, and he's doing a good job. Sorry to
be such an idiot and not realize these obvious truths. :-)
RogerN
Ignoramus23667
>
> "Steve Lusardi" <steve...@lusardi.de> wrote in message
> news:hp304q$nu0$02$1...@news.t-online.com...
>> Iggy,
>> I'm amazed by your statement. When was the last time any product in the
>> stores said "Made in the USA"? There is virtually no serious manufacturing
>> left in the States. You don't need statistics to witness this and in point
>> of fact, without seeing US products on the shelves, you have absolutely no
>> justification for believing them. The same thing is happening in Europe
>> and Japan. We have already exported almost all of our manufacturing to the
>> third world to remain competitive in the world market. Don't believe the
>> shit you read....look on the shelves.
>> Steve
>
> Take a look at the detailed US manufacturing data (and the trade data, which
> is another story) and you may be in for a shock, Steve. What you're seeing
> on shelves is consumer products. They're the bottom end of manufacturing.
> The US is doing very well in industrial and commercial products, and the
> overall dollar figures of output keep climbing year after year. Of course,
> during a recession, everything drops. But go back two years and look at the
> decades-long trend.
>
> I'll pull together some links if you have any trouble finding it.
>
I would like to see some data Ed. Thanks
i
Ignoramus23667
>
>>> That's good to hear. Sometimes I wonder if there's ever a WWIII, will the
>>> USA be able to stand on our own manufacturing ability, or will we need to be
>>> supplied by those we are at war with?
>>
>>I believe that the US us able to make weapons, and such, but it lost
>>the ability to make networking components. Even the US government buys
>>China made Cisco equipment.
>>
>
> The idea of a Chinese produced router as part of a DOD network is scary as hell.
And yet true. http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread350381/pg1
Look for powerpoint slides there
> Your post had me wondering where Intel has chip fabrication located so I did a bit of
> googling.
>
> This link is a couple years old but I was pretty darn happy to see Intel doesn't have
> fabrication plants in China. http://www.cpu-world.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9550
Good to hear.
i
Ed Huntress
Where did you hear that nonsense?
> So now Obama stole more of the economy from our kids, our future, and he's
> doing a good job.
Don't be ridiculous.
> Sorry to be such an idiot and not realize these obvious truths. :-)
Sorry, Roger, but you go around in circles too much for me to try to engage
this with you.
You blame a Democratic Congress for decades of mindless conservative
economics that let the worldwide financial industry go in the tank, and
trigger a recession. You think that the number of seats in the legislature
determines outcomes -- when you know damned well that a minority in the
Senate has been blocking legislation.
It isn't worth discussing it with you if you intentionally act dumb.
--
Ed Huntress
Larry Jaques
<ne...@nedsim.com> scrawled the following:
My buddy (Terry in LoCal) does similar work and is having feasts and
famines throughout the year for several years now.
>On the other hand, employment at my largest customer is still way
>down, and the folks that are there are working harder than ever. In
>other words, they're spending on capital projects, but seem to be
>waiting as long as possible to rehire production workers.
So, Ned. What do you hear? Are they saying that expansion is from
Obama's fabulous job so far, or is everyone saying "Well, it doesn't
look as if he's going to take the country down this year, let's invest
and expand for awhile."
pyotr filipivich
about Thu, 01 Apr 2010 18:55:17 -0700 did write/type or cause to
appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
>On Thu, 01 Apr 2010 16:35:51 -0700, pyotr filipivich
><ph...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>>Let the Record show that Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com> on or
>>about Thu, 01 Apr 2010 13:20:55 -0700 did write/type or cause to
>>appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
>>>
>>>>"Obama policies", which anyone should be free to like or not like, do
>>>>not fundamentally change the fact that we are a dynamic, capitalist
>>>>economy. In fact, availability of health insurance may help someone to
>>>>move towards self-employment.
>>>>
>>>>i
>>>
>>>
>>>Want to start a manufacturing business? Come out to California.
>>>
>>>Lots and lots of existing shops here, where the owners simply walked
>>>away from the building, leaving all the machinery(unpaid for), all the
>>>tools (unpaid for) and all the piles of completed work (unpaid for)
>>>still sitting in the shipping dock.
>>>
>>>Ill bet you could get a complete shop for simply walking in the front
>>>door.
>>>
>>>Course..you better have at least 4 yrs worth of expense money in the
>>>bank.....
>>
>> Which leads me to the question, how long would it take to rig such
>>an enterprise onto transportation to another location, one which might
>>be considered more business friendly?
>>
>
>That is what some of the folks are doing. Some saw the California
>economy going south a couple years ago, so sold their homes and business
>locations, and bought raw land in Idaho, and other states. One client of
>mine sold his house for $350k, and sold his shop local for $850k
>
>He moved to Idaho, bought 25 acres, had a brand new house built, had a
>Butler Building erected..all for less than $250k, moved his machines up
>for $50k and now has more than $900k in the bank, a fully functional
>machine shop in operation and is happy as a clam.
Friend of mine figures he may be able to do likewise in a couple
years. Sell the house, close the office, move out of state - just
over the border. Still work in this state, get a reciprocity deal
with the neighbor state. He figures he can cut back to merely a forty
hour week and make ends meet.
>
>Not everyone was that smart, or able to do that, unfortunately. Too
>many forgot that the client was UPS away, or for the odd ones..needed to
>be near their clients.
Some things can't be outsourced.
>
>Now that the housing market bottom has fallen out..and the Commercial
>Real Estate crunch is on the close horizon....that option may no longer
>be available.
But my question was more about "Hmmm, I need machine tools, where
can I 'pick them up' for just the cost of hauling them away?"
I am remembering article from several years ago, that in a number
of countries, it was such an onerous task for a business to fail
(legally) that many owners would just close the doors and disappear.
Sounds like similar things are happening in SoCal.
tschus
pyotr
-
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!
Buerste
> Ok, now I understand, every time the Democrats win more seats, things go
> further south and it's the Republicans fault. So now Obama stole more of
> the economy from our kids, our future, and he's doing a good job. Sorry
> to be such an idiot and not realize these obvious truths. :-)
>
> RogerN
What do liberals care? Our kids will undoubtedly have to support their kids
in an unending flow of cheese-checks and free healthcare.
Ed Huntress
"Ignoramus23667" <ignoram...@NOSPAM.23667.invalid> wrote in message
news:XZCdnevfNK4K6SvW...@giganews.com...
Ok. First off, total manufacturing output, adjusted for inflation. The gray
bands are recessions. If you want to see data preceding 1970, click on
"Vintage Series" (ALFRED):
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/IPMAN?cid=3
The Annual Survey of Manufactures goes into great detail, but it involves a
lot of paging. There are filters and so on that you can use:
http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/IBQTable?_bm=y&-ds_name=AM0831VS101
This one (the M3 report) is tedious to read, but you can drill down and see
how much we're manufacturing in very finely-defined categories. It's the big
one. Since it's a drill-down table, you can see broad categories and then
finer ones.
When I did reports on manufacturing for the trade press, this is the one I
used. And if you think this is tedious, you should have seen it in the old
days, when one report was one bookshelf full of computer printouts:
http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/IBQTable?_bm=y&-ds_name=AM0831GS101
There are download options for these files. If you want graphs, or want to
compare a category output over time, you'll have to fish around for historic
tables and create your own graphs. I used to do this frequently. It's a
hassle. Here's home base:
One very interesting thing to look at is the trade data. I'm going to
recommend this for a start:
http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/Press-Release/current_press_release/ft900.pdf
Here's the home for that general class of data:
http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/data/index.html
Note that our exports really are not that far below our imports, if you look
at them in the same place (the graph does this). When we talk about
protecting against imports, we have to wonder who will buy all those exports
if we do.
The tables in the PDF above show many surprising things. We're exporting as
much in many industrial categories as we import. If it wasn't for oil and
low-end consumer goods, we'd be pretty close to balance.
Enough for now? There's a ton of this stuff available. These links aren't
always the quickest to read, but they collectively answer just about any
question you might have.
--
Ed Huntress
Ignoramus23667
>
> "RogerN" <re...@midwest.net> wrote in message
> news:ZJmdnexrrsYy9ivW...@earthlink.com...
>
>> Ok, now I understand, every time the Democrats win more seats, things go
>> further south and it's the Republicans fault. So now Obama stole more of
>> the economy from our kids, our future, and he's doing a good job. Sorry
>> to be such an idiot and not realize these obvious truths. :-)
>
> their kids in an unending flow of cheese-checks and free healthcare.
I would not be so "undoubtedly" sure whose kids will end up supporting
whose kids. Life takes interesting turns sometimes.
i
Harold & Susan Vordos
Blush!
I admit, I failed to see the tongue in cheek comment as such.
Yep---we're in one hell of a mess. Being politically active may not be
the solution. What we really need are statesmen, instead of individuals
looking to feather their own nests, as appears to be the case with the vast
majority of politicians (a word I use loosely).
Harold
Ignoramus17332
> They're saying, "Gee, he pumped trillions of dollars into the most
> corrupt industries and poorly run companies he could find... and six months
> later there's a little "blip" on the manufacturing index. Whooo-hooo!"
Keep in mind that "pumping" takes form of asset purchases, buying
preferred stock and (possibly) equity. These are investments that are,
in most cases, recoverable.
i
Bill Noble
"Ignoramus17332" <ignoram...@NOSPAM.17332.invalid> wrote in message
news:t-GdnYzNT4kk_CrW...@giganews.com...
> I
keep in mind that most of the hate postings are by people who are bitter,
isolated and not on the receiving side of any benefit. There used to be a
time when we felt that what was good for the country as a whole was the
right thing to do - you will notice that this attitude is now gone,
particularly from those posting about death panels, baby killing, and using
divisive terms and invective. We had a civil war once - it was not
pleasant. I had hoped we had matured enough to find solutions rather than
make speeches but evidence appears to the contrary. Carl Rove and his
divide and win policy certainly has not helped any. The demise of
newspapers has led to the uniformed believing what they read on internet
blogs or hear screamed by talking heads who are paid for their ability to
arouse, not for their ability to be truthful. Those who denigrate the
current administration via ad-hominem attacks and factless accusations are
part of the problem - and screaming, shouting, and spittle do not lead to a
dialog, solution, unity, or progress. Did anyone ever see Regan, for
example, stoop to this level? or Eisenhower? or even either of the Bushes?
Gunner Asch
wrote:
>
>
>"Ignoramus17332" <ignoram...@NOSPAM.17332.invalid> wrote in message
>news:t-GdnYzNT4kk_CrW...@giganews.com...
>> On 2010-04-03, David Courtney <adv...@powercom.net> wrote:
>>> They're saying, "Gee, he pumped trillions of dollars into the most
>>> corrupt industries and poorly run companies he could find... and six
>>> months
>>> later there's a little "blip" on the manufacturing index. Whooo-hooo!"
>>
>> Keep in mind that "pumping" takes form of asset purchases, buying
>> preferred stock and (possibly) equity. These are investments that are,
>> in most cases, recoverable.
>>
>> I
>
>keep in mind that most of the hate postings are by people who are bitter,
>isolated and not on the receiving side of any benefit. There used to be a
>time when we felt that what was good for the country as a whole was the
>right thing to do - you will notice that this attitude is now gone,
>particularly from those posting about death panels, baby killing, and using
>divisive terms and invective. We had a civil war once - it was not
>pleasant.
And we are going to have another one before long.
> I had hoped we had matured enough to find solutions rather than
>make speeches but evidence appears to the contrary.
Indeed. Check Washington and the Internet. Leftwingers are hardly
"mature". Responding to them at their level causes them to go even
more batshit crazy.
>Carl Rove and his
>divide and win policy certainly has not helped any.
Neither has the Franks/Pelosi/Schumer "Fuck the Right" stance.
>The demise of
>newspapers has led to the uniformed believing what they read on internet
>blogs or hear screamed by talking heads who are paid for their ability to
>arouse, not for their ability to be truthful.
Odd...since the newspapers are/were largely a
Liberal/Progressive/Socialist/Marxist run media..the Internet has given
other viewpoints far far more visability to other viewpoints amd
frankly...truthful information exchange.
>Those who denigrate the
>current administration via ad-hominem attacks and factless accusations are
>part of the problem -
What..you dont like Transparency?
>and screaming, shouting, and spittle do not lead to a
>dialog, solution, unity, or progress. Did anyone ever see Regan, for
>example, stoop to this level? or Eisenhower? or even either of the Bushes?
Nope..but one must respond to Leftwingers in a fashion that they are
most familiar with and one that they comprehend. One that they use for
the most part.
Afterall...one cannot be understood if using proper English, when
addressing inner city thugs, correct?
Gunner
"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.
This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost
Hawke
What the whining complainers fail to mention is that not only did the
government pump money into large corporations it didn't want to see go
bankrupt, but it also pumped a lot of money into the hands of taxpayers
and states. Extension of unemployment benefits, middle class tax cuts,
and payments to the states all did a hell of a lot of good. But in this
case you don't see how bad it would have been if they didn't. You may
not see a lot of obvious improvements but think what it would have been
like if unemployed workers had lost benefits right away, if the public
had not had more money in it's hands from the tax cuts, and the states
had not gotten any money from the federal government. If none of those
things had been done there is no doubt we would have been in a real
depression. But I wonder if the republicans would have been happier if
that had happened. If you followed their do nothing approach that is
what would have happened, so I can only surmise that they would have
preferred a depression rather than do what Obama did.
Hawke
John
Here now! Banjo players are all carefree, happy fellows, like myself.
Most of us wouldn't know a politician if we met him; heck, some of us
don't even know what color one is :-)
RogerN doesn't qualify. Not even "air banjo".
Cheers,
John D.
(jdslocombatgmail)
Eregon
news:hp85js$opr$1...@news.eternal-september.org:
>
>
> "Ignoramus17332" <ignoram...@NOSPAM.17332.invalid> wrote in
> message news:t-GdnYzNT4kk_CrW...@giganews.com...
>> On 2010-04-03, David Courtney <adv...@powercom.net> wrote:
>>> They're saying, "Gee, he pumped trillions of dollars into the
>>> most
>>> corrupt industries and poorly run companies he could find... and six
>>> months
>>> later there's a little "blip" on the manufacturing index.
>>> Whooo-hooo!"
>>
>> Keep in mind that "pumping" takes form of asset purchases, buying
>> preferred stock and (possibly) equity. These are investments that
>> are, in most cases, recoverable.
>>
>> I
>
> keep in mind that most of the hate postings are by people who are
> bitter, isolated and not on the receiving side of any benefit.
This describes the majority of the US population.
> There used to be a time when we felt that what was good for the
> country as a whole was the right thing to do - you will notice that
> this attitude is now gone, particularly from those posting about death
> panels, baby killing, and using divisive terms and invective.
If it was good for the country there wouldn't be the divisness that
you're complaining about.
The fact that it's BAD for the country is the very reason for the
divisivness.
> We had a civil war once - it was not pleasant.
What makes you think that it's over?
It just moved from an armed conflict phase to an economic war phase and
the South is winning. <grin>
> I had hoped we had matured enough to find solutions rather than make
> speeches but evidence appears to the contrary. Carl Rove and his
> divide and win policy certainly has not helped any. The demise of
> newspapers has led to the uniformed believing what they read on
> internet blogs or hear screamed by talking heads who are paid for
> their ability to arouse, not for their ability to be truthful. Those
> who denigrate the current administration via ad-hominem attacks and
> factless accusations are part of the problem - and screaming,
> shouting, and spittle do not lead to a dialog, solution, unity, or
> progress. Did anyone ever see Regan, for example, stoop to this
> level? or Eisenhower? or even either of the Bushes?
No, but we saw a lot of it from FDR, JFK, LBJ, Jimmie "the Klutz" Carter,
the Clintons and, now, BHO - the Affirmative Action President.
Gunner Asch
Oddly enough..Im a banjo player as well. Yet the leftwing fringe kook
extremists here think that Im some sort of rightwing fanatic.
I simply calls em like I see em.
Michael A. Terrell
Gunner Asch wrote:
>
> Oddly enough..Im a banjo player as well. Yet the leftwing fringe kook
> extremists here think that Im some sort of rightwing fanatic.
>
> I simply calls em like I see em.
You should have plenty of free, leftist catgut after the cull... ;-)
--
Lead free solder is Belgium's version of 'Hold my beer and watch this!'
RogerN
"Gunner Asch" <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:s3sfr5tb95t3oe2pd...@4ax.com...
The way it works is you have to go to school long enough to be indoctrinated
with liberalism. When they brainwash you enough to fit the mold of a
liberal then they tell you that you are thinking for yourself. If you have
any opinion that disagrees with modern liberalism as taught in schools, then
you are not thinking for yourself. Liberals think for themselves and give
the indoctrinated cookie cutter answer, and anyone that comes up with their
own answer isn't thinking for themselves.
RogerN
Jeff R.
> The way it works is you have to go to school long enough to be
> indoctrinated with liberalism. When they brainwash you enough to fit the
> mold of a liberal then they tell you that you are thinking for yourself.
> If you have any opinion that disagrees with modern liberalism as taught in
> schools, then you are not thinking for yourself. Liberals think for
> themselves and give the indoctrinated cookie cutter answer, and anyone
> that comes up with their own answer isn't thinking for themselves.
>
> RogerN
Kind'a like fundie christians, huh?
--
JR
Ed Huntress
"John" <jdsl...@invalid.com> wrote in message
news:eu7er5dqt4qoautp8...@4ax.com...
There are times that I'd like to smash my TV and computer, buy some fishing
rods and a banjo, and go live in a cabin.
But I'm hooked.
--
Ed Huntress
Ed Huntress
So how did you escape all of this, Roger? 'Raised by wolves, were you? Or
didn't you go to school long enough for all of that to happen?
--
Ed Huntress
Gunner Asch
<mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>Gunner Asch wrote:
>>
>> Oddly enough..Im a banjo player as well. Yet the leftwing fringe kook
>> extremists here think that Im some sort of rightwing fanatic.
>>
>> I simply calls em like I see em.
>
>
> You should have plenty of free, leftist catgut after the cull... ;-)
You know..Id not thought about that...true indeed! Though given the
source...think it would ever be able to be tuned?
Gunner Asch
Which fundie christians are you referring to? After all...80% of
Americans believe in God.
So that has to include some few Leftards..right? Or are the Leftards
20% or less of society?
And in 2 yrs..they will get to find out if there is a God or not.
<VBG>
David R.Birch
>> Here now! Banjo players are all carefree, happy fellows, like myself.
>> Most of us wouldn't know a politician if we met him; heck, some of us
>> don't even know what color one is :-)
>
> There are times that I'd like to smash my TV and computer, buy some fishing
> rods and a banjo, and go live in a cabin.
>
> But I'm hooked.
How about we set up a fund to buy James Taylor a banjo?
David
RogerN
"Jeff R." <con...@this.ng> wrote in message
news:4bb81411$0$5591$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
Actually there is a huge difference that a liberal probably can never see.
Solid foundations are laid but liberals destroy foundations and then build
their own by "thinking for themselves", the problem is that their foundation
isn't 10% as good as the one they destroyed. Over time they erode the
foundation for the belief until the can claim anything they want. Tearing
down a solid foundation for a belief and then building a weaker one, and
then believing the weaker foundation is true is how liberals change the
facts of history over time.
Some examples, liberals today think they know what happened 2000 years ago
but the people that were actually there at the time don't. That is why God
had people write down what happened and preserve it over time.
Another example, liberals claim the New Testament wasn't written until
hundreds of years after the fact. Though they don't have any actual
original documents, what was written and what was left out dates the
documents. For example, the same libtards that claim the NT was written
hundreds of years after it happened also claim the Disciples thought Jesus
would return in their life time. That reveals an error in logic that
liberals are willing to ignore because their goal is to destroy truth, not
believe truth.
The bottom line is that liberal beliefs are built on destroying solid
foundations and building ever weakening foundations, the result is that the
actual truths get erased over time. Others take a base line, the solid
foundation truth, and don't destroy the foundation unless they find evidence
that the foundation is flawed.
The bottom line difference between a liberal and a fundie Christian is the
Christian believes truth on a solid foundation, the liberal believes in
destroying solid foundations and building weaker ones to believe in. What's
it been, a couple hundred years since slavery in the USA? And already the
liberal Democrats have conveniently forgot that they were the ones wanting
slavery. Today the issue is killing babies, in the future they will
probably be trying to wipe out the fact they were the ones for killing
babies.
For a liberal, truth is what they want it to be, for others, the truth is
the truth.
RogerN
RogerN
>>>>John D.
>>>>(jdslocombatgmail)
>>>
>>> Oddly enough..Im a banjo player as well. Yet the leftwing fringe kook
>>> extremists here think that Im some sort of rightwing fanatic.
>>>
>>> I simply calls em like I see em.
>>>
>>> Gunner
>>>
>>
>> The way it works is you have to go to school long enough to be
>> indoctrinated with liberalism. When they brainwash you enough to fit the
>> mold of a liberal then they tell you that you are thinking for yourself.
>> If you have any opinion that disagrees with modern liberalism as taught
>> in schools, then you are not thinking for yourself. Liberals think for
>> themselves and give the indoctrinated cookie cutter answer, and anyone
>> that comes up with their own answer isn't thinking for themselves.
>>
>> RogerN
>
> So how did you escape all of this, Roger? 'Raised by wolves, were you? Or
> didn't you go to school long enough for all of that to happen?
>
> --
> Ed Huntress
No, just go to school, think for yourself, and see through the liberal BS.
On the part of believing in the Bible, I found all kinds of liberal attacks
on the Bible, looked at arguments for and against, saw the arguments for
being proven true through facts, saw the arguments against dissolving due to
the same facts. For example, the book of Isaiah was attacked by liberal
Bible scholars making claims that it was written by different people and
different times, then the complete, or nearly complete, writings of Isaiah
were discovered in the Dead Sea Scrolls and dated, bottom line, the Bible
was right .. again, the liberals were wrong .. again.
RogerN
Michael A. Terrell
Gunner Asch wrote:
>
> On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 23:40:48 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
> <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >Gunner Asch wrote:
> >>
> >> Oddly enough..Im a banjo player as well. Yet the leftwing fringe kook
> >> extremists here think that Im some sort of rightwing fanatic.
> >>
> >> I simply calls em like I see em.
> >
> >
> > You should have plenty of free, leftist catgut after the cull... ;-)
>
> You know..Id not thought about that...true indeed! Though given the
> source...think it would ever be able to be tuned?
After all the drugs are rinsed out, and think of all the cats it'll
save...
John
<hunt...@optonline.net> wrote:
You have to view it as it really is - sort of a Lucy and Dezi sort of
show. With tragic overtones.
Take this little segment of the Great American Public, there are
enough characters here to make a movie, except that any decent movie
director would reject most of them as being unbelievable. Pogo Was
right - we've meet the enemy and it IS us.
Cheers,
John D.
(jdslocombatgmail)
John
But they are Sooo much trouble to read all those funny words 'n
thingies.....Can't I just watch Fox News?
:->
Cheers,
John D.
(jdslocombatgmail)
Ed Huntress
"David R.Birch" <dbi...@wi.rr.com> wrote in message
news:hp9q6...@news3.newsguy.com...
There must be some cultural reference in there that went over my head. d8-)
--
Ed Huntress
David R.Birch
Taylor's music reflects his history of severe depression. Can you
image "Fire and Rain" done to banjo music? Maybe it would help his music.
Probably best to leave aside the "Deliverance" references, though.
David
Ed Huntress
I guess you're just a part of that very elite group, Roger, that has unique
insights and the ability to resist all of those pressures to which everyone
else falls victim. Your enviable and exemplary insights even give you the
authority to cheer and scheme for the demise of those who don't agree with
you. What a Christian you are!
>
> On the part of believing in the Bible, I found all kinds of liberal
> attacks on the Bible, looked at arguments for and against, saw the
> arguments for being proven true through facts, saw the arguments against
> dissolving due to the same facts. For example, the book of Isaiah was
> attacked by liberal Bible scholars making claims that it was written by
> different people and different times, then the complete, or nearly
> complete, writings of Isaiah were discovered in the Dead Sea Scrolls and
> dated, bottom line, the Bible was right .. again, the liberals were wrong
> .. again.
>
> RogerN
I'm glad for you that you've found what you're looking for. Just don't try
to impose it on the rest of us, Ok?
--
Ed Huntress
Ed Huntress
You could, and many can, which explains may unfortunate things. <g>
I haven't given a talk on that stuff for a few years but when I do, I boil
it all down to graphs: comparisons, trend lines, etc. As I said, it's a lot
of work, but it's pretty startling when you see the real thing, in light of
the impressions we get from the news.
That graph in the first link above, of the US historical manufacturing
output, is enough to make many people sit up and scratch their heads.
BTW, that "Vintage" ALFRED link is not what I expected -- I should have
checked more carefully. They did something weird. ALFRED usually gives you
long-term historical results.
--
Ed Huntress
Ed Huntress
Oh, Ok. Now I'm with you.
>
> Probably best to leave aside the "Deliverance" references, though.
>
> David
It would be confusing...something about hillbillies with beady, close-set
eyes who look like all their cousins.
--
Ed Huntress
pyotr filipivich
about Sat, 03 Apr 2010 23:14:42 -0700 did write/type or cause to
appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
>On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 23:40:48 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
><mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>Gunner Asch wrote:
>>>
>>> Oddly enough..Im a banjo player as well. Yet the leftwing fringe kook
>>> extremists here think that Im some sort of rightwing fanatic.
>>>
>>> I simply calls em like I see em.
>>
>>
>> You should have plenty of free, leftist catgut after the cull... ;-)
>
>
>You know..Id not thought about that...true indeed! Though given the
>source...think it would ever be able to be tuned?
Shor. But think, why do so many of those old time songs sound so
whiny? It's the inferior lefty guts their using for strings.
-
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!
Ignoramus31024
Ed, thanks. I am going to fly back home from CA, in an hour, and I
downloaded your articles on the laptop to read in-flight.
Here's one more piece about how the recession has likely ended:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/05/business/economy/05econ.html
i
Ed Huntress
"Ignoramus31024" <ignoram...@NOSPAM.31024.invalid> wrote in message
news:v8idnd8GQdZTcSXW...@giganews.com...
Enjoy your data-crunching. <g>
I hope Greenspan is right. As I've mentioned before, I'm always behind the
curve on optimism regarding job-creation because (probably) I don't have a
full, imaginative grasp of how jobs grow in this free-for-all economy of
ours. It always amazes me, but not because I don't believe in the business
cycle. It's just a matter of wondering where they're going to come from.
Have a good flight.
--
Ed Huntress
RogerN
Nope, there are many conservatives even thought the liberal bias in our
newspapers, TV, and educational system. Why are nearly 50% conservatives
when nearly 95% of what we see, hear, read, and get taught is liberalism?
It wasn't me that decided I knew more at age 13 than all the people that
believe in God.
>> On the part of believing in the Bible, I found all kinds of liberal
>> attacks on the Bible, looked at arguments for and against, saw the
>> arguments for being proven true through facts, saw the arguments against
>> dissolving due to the same facts. For example, the book of Isaiah was
>> attacked by liberal Bible scholars making claims that it was written by
>> different people and different times, then the complete, or nearly
>> complete, writings of Isaiah were discovered in the Dead Sea Scrolls and
>> dated, bottom line, the Bible was right .. again, the liberals were wrong
>> .. again.
>>
>> RogerN
>
> I'm glad for you that you've found what you're looking for. Just don't try
> to impose it on the rest of us, Ok?
>
> --
> Ed Huntress
Like liberalism is imposed on everyone that watches TV, goes to school, or
reads a newspaper? Also Ed, don't take anything I say about "Liberals"
personally, you're not a very good liberal, you even seem to think it's OK
to own a gun. You infidel! :-) Also I think you know I sometimes just try
to stir the hornets nest and I don't always put a smilie to indicate I'm
joking, it's easy to have a poker face when typing messages though often I'm
laughing when I press send.
RogerN
Hawke
Is that what happened to you when you were in school, Roger? Because you
give the impression that none of that has happened to you. Or did you
not attend school? In which case I'm wondering how you know what they
are teaching there if you weren't there.
Hawke
Gunner Asch
Indeed.
<VBG>
Ned Simmons
<lja...@diversify.invalid> wrote:
>
>So, Ned. What do you hear? Are they saying that expansion is from
>Obama's fabulous job so far, or is everyone saying "Well, it doesn't
>look as if he's going to take the country down this year, let's invest
>and expand for awhile."
I can honestly say it's never come up. All the folks I choose to deal
with are down to earth, pragmatic engineers or techs -- I come here
for my dose of wacky economic theory.
--
Ned Simmons
Jeff R.
>
> "Jeff R." <con...@this.ng> wrote in message
> news:4bb81411$0$5591$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
>>
>> "RogerN" <re...@midwest.net> wrote in message
>> news:qbidnT7Mw4XPjyXW...@earthlink.com...
>>
>>> The way it works is you have to go to school long enough to be
>>> RogerN
>>
>> Kind'a like fundie christians, huh?
>>
>> --
>> JR
>>
>
> ... Tearing down a solid foundation for a belief and then building a
> weaker one, and then believing the weaker foundation is true is how
> liberals change the facts of history over time.
Something Christians would never do, huh?
> Another example, liberals claim the New Testament wasn't written until
> hundreds of years after the fact.
Roger, Roger. So... when were the gospels written? How old were the
authors at the time? How old were they at the time of Jesus?
> The bottom line difference between a liberal and a fundie Christian is the
> Christian believes truth on a solid foundation, the liberal believes in
> destroying solid foundations and building weaker ones to believe in.
> What's it been, a couple hundred years since slavery in the USA? And
> already the liberal Democrats have conveniently forgot that they were the
> ones wanting slavery.
Ummm... Roger, don't forget that the warrant for slavery is in the bible,
and the brave individuals - christians or not - who opposed it did so in the
face of biblical injunction as well as majority popular opinion.
> Today the issue is killing babies,
Is that the only issue?
Really?
You do realise, don't you, that your god kills millions of times more babies
than do any actual living people.
How do *you* get to choose what *the* issue is?
What about inner-city violence?
What about corrupt politicians?
What about global poverty?
What about AIDS in Africa?
What about care of the elderly?
How come you get to choose what the issue is?
> For a liberal, truth is what they want it to be, for others, the truth is
> the truth.
You forgot the capital "T".
> RogerN
>
So, Roger, could you explain again how it's "indoctrination" and
"brainwashing" when non-christians raise their family according to their own
values, yet it's "building on 'solid foundations'" when a christian does the
same thing?
Just wondering...
--
Jeff R.
RogerN
> "RogerN" <re...@midwest.net> wrote in message
> news:OJmdnTzJBIvyDCXW...@earthlink.com...
>>
>> "Jeff R." <con...@this.ng> wrote in message
>> news:4bb81411$0$5591$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
>>>
>>> "RogerN" <re...@midwest.net> wrote in message
>>> news:qbidnT7Mw4XPjyXW...@earthlink.com...
>>>
>>>> The way it works is you have to go to school long enough to be
>>>> indoctrinated with liberalism. ...
>
>>>> RogerN
>>>
>>> Kind'a like fundie christians, huh?
>>>
>>> --
>>> JR
>>>
>>
>> ... Tearing down a solid foundation for a belief and then building a
>> weaker one, and then believing the weaker foundation is true is how
>> liberals change the facts of history over time.
>
> Something Christians would never do, huh?
Actually many follow and believe somewhat blindly.
>> Another example, liberals claim the New Testament wasn't written until
>> hundreds of years after the fact.
>
> Roger, Roger. So... when were the gospels written? How old were the
> authors at the time? How old were they at the time of Jesus?
There's pretty good evidence that they were written before the destruction
on the temple in 70AD. For one, they mention Jesus' telling that the temple
would be destroyed but there is no mention that it was fulfilled in 70AD.
If any new testament writings were from a later date it would have been
beneficial to include the destruction of the temple in 70AD and the
disciples death for their faith. Also, it would have been beneficial to
leave out the any indication that the disciples thought Jesus would return
in their lifetime. That would indicate that the new testament writings were
within 40 years of Christs resurrection. Also, in Paul's letter to the
Corinthians, he mentions that there were over 500 eye witnesses that saw
Jesus after the resurrection and many were still alive at the time of the
writing, indicating that the readers could find them and talk to the if they
wanted.
>> The bottom line difference between a liberal and a fundie Christian is
>> the Christian believes truth on a solid foundation, the liberal believes
>> in destroying solid foundations and building weaker ones to believe in.
>> What's it been, a couple hundred years since slavery in the USA? And
>> already the liberal Democrats have conveniently forgot that they were the
>> ones wanting slavery.
>
> Ummm... Roger, don't forget that the warrant for slavery is in the bible,
> and the brave individuals - christians or not - who opposed it did so in
> the face of biblical injunction as well as majority popular opinion.
>
>> Today the issue is killing babies,
>
> Is that the only issue?
No, but it's a dividing issue between Democrats and Republicans just like
slavery was years ago, and the Democrats were on the wrong side of the
issue.
> Really?
> You do realise, don't you, that your god kills millions of times more
> babies than do any actual living people.
>
> How do *you* get to choose what *the* issue is?
>
> What about inner-city violence?
> What about corrupt politicians?
> What about global poverty?
> What about AIDS in Africa?
> What about care of the elderly?
>
> How come you get to choose what the issue is?
Like I answered above, that certainly isn't the only issue.
>> For a liberal, truth is what they want it to be, for others, the truth is
>> the truth.
>
> You forgot the capital "T".
>
>> RogerN
>>
>
> So, Roger, could you explain again how it's "indoctrination" and
> "brainwashing" when non-christians raise their family according to their
> own values, yet it's "building on 'solid foundations'" when a christian
> does the same thing?
>
> Just wondering...
>
> --
> Jeff R.
For many there may not be a lot of difference, they don't teach the solid
foundation of the scriptures and many lose their faith when they get older,
largely due to the teachings of liberals. They believe the liberals
arguments instead of looking up the counter arguments. There is a former
Atheist that was an investigative reporter for the Chicago Tribune (IIRC)
that used his investigative reporting skills on Christianity. Now he writes
books and has debates between the most outspoken Atheists and Christians,
many Atheists come to these debates and become Christians. They had never
heard the other side of the argument before.
RogerN
Chief Egalitarian
"pyotr filipivich" <ph...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:hhnhr5h4o90g4qgjn...@4ax.com...
> Let the Record show that Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com> on or
> about Sat, 03 Apr 2010 23:14:42 -0700 did write/type or cause to
> appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
>>On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 23:40:48 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
>><mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Gunner Asch wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Oddly enough..Im a banjo player as well. Yet the leftwing fringe kook
>>>> extremists here think that Im some sort of rightwing fanatic.
>>>>
>>>> I simply calls em like I see em.
>>>
>>>
>>> You should have plenty of free, leftist catgut after the cull... ;-)
>>
>>
>>You know..Id not thought about that...true indeed! Though given the
>>source...think it would ever be able to be tuned?
>
> Shor. But think, why do so many of those old time songs sound so
> whiny? It's the inferior lefty guts their using for strings.
>
You could always go into the tennis racket racket.
Jeff R.
> There's pretty good evidence that they were written before the destruction
> on the temple in 70AD. For one, they mention Jesus' telling that the
> temple would be destroyed but there is no mention that it was fulfilled in
> 70AD. If any new testament writings were from a later date it would have
> been beneficial to include the destruction of the temple in 70AD and the
> disciples death for their faith.
That's a pretty shaky foundation upon which to base your argument. You
argue against the presence of a non-existent omission, as if that proves (or
even "suggests") your chronology. Skaky indeed, considering the hundreds of
acknowledged extant contradictions already conceded.
>...Also, it would have been beneficial to leave out the any indication that
>the disciples thought Jesus would return in their lifetime.
"Beneficial" perhaps, but nowhere near solid foundations for evidence.
It would have been (immensely) beneficial if the authors of the gospels had
simply annotated them as having been written "in the xxxth year of our
lord...", yet they chose (?) not to. How many books do you own which do not
have the year they were written clearly indicated at the front? This is a
minor point, granted, but arguably much more significant than the "temple"
of the "return" arguments you advance.
>...That would indicate that the new testament writings were within 40 years
>of Christs resurrection.
No - it would only suggest that as a possibility. No more.
>... Also, in Paul's letter to the Corinthians, he mentions that there were
>over 500 eye witnesses that saw Jesus after the resurrection and many were
>still alive at the time of the writing, indicating that the readers could
>find them and talk to the if they wanted.
Roger, that's one account claiming there were 500, not 500 verifying it
independently. There is a difference.
>
>>> The bottom line difference between a liberal and a fundie Christian is
>>> the Christian believes truth on a solid foundation, the liberal believes
>>> in destroying solid foundations and building weaker ones to believe in.
Extraordinary.
You have evidence for this broad, sweeping statement?
>>> What's it been, a couple hundred years since slavery in the USA? And
>>> already the liberal Democrats have conveniently forgot that they were
>>> the ones wanting slavery.
>>
>> Ummm... Roger, don't forget that the warrant for slavery is in the bible,
>> and the brave individuals - christians or not - who opposed it did so in
>> the face of biblical injunction as well as majority popular opinion.
>>
>>> Today the issue is killing babies,
>>
>> Is that the only issue?
>
> No, but it's a dividing issue between Democrats and Republicans just like
> slavery was years ago, and the Democrats were on the wrong side of the
> issue.
If I read you correctly, they were the ones who supported the biblical
warrant. Don't forget that the brave folk who opposed slavery were also
opposing instructions given to them in the bible.
>>
>> So, Roger, could you explain again how it's "indoctrination" and
>> "brainwashing" when non-christians raise their family according to their
>> own values, yet it's "building on 'solid foundations'" when a christian
>> does the same thing?
>>
>> Just wondering...
>>
>> --
>> Jeff R.
>
> For many there may not be a lot of difference, they don't teach the solid
> foundation of the scriptures
Roger - the scriptures are *your* myths and legends - not verified facts.
The ancient Greeks taught Zeus and Mt Olympus.
Your god and your legends are no different - just a product of our fertile
imagination.
>...and many lose their faith when they get older,
You say that like its a *bad* thing!
> largely due to the teachings of liberals. They believe the liberals
> arguments instead of looking up the counter arguments. There is a former
> Atheist that was an investigative reporter for the Chicago Tribune (IIRC)
> that used his investigative reporting skills on Christianity. Now he
> writes books and has debates between the most outspoken Atheists and
> Christians, many Atheists come to these debates and become Christians.
> They had never heard the other side of the argument before.
Oh pffftphttt!
I see your anecdote and raise you one.
Which number is currently increasing: believers or non-believers?
(Not that a majority indicates truth, mind you)
>
> RogerN
Keep plugging away, Roger. I hope you've had a pleasant holiday.
--
Jeff R.
Harold & Susan Vordos
snip--
>
> So, Roger, could you explain again how it's "indoctrination" and
> "brainwashing" when non-christians raise their family according to their
> own values, yet it's "building on 'solid foundations'" when a christian
> does the same thing?
>
> Just wondering...
>
> --
> Jeff R.
Yes, Roger.. I'm wondering, too.
Harold
pyotr filipivich
or about Sun, 4 Apr 2010 20:55:10 -0500 did write/type or cause to
appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
I think I'd go for the racket ball racket racket. Smaller
rackets, so seeing as how the lefties seem to have no guts, it might
be more easily one.
But the lefties do seem a bit high strung.
John
Roger, I hate to say it but your rationale seem to leap about with the
dexterity if a kangaroo.
In another post you stated that "God had people write down what
happened" and now you say that Liberals claim that it was written by
several people.
Where is the disagreement? God said WRITE and obviously it happened,
we have the book as proof. Whether it was written by one man or a
million monkeys with a million IBM selectrics, if it was done at the
express direction of God then one can only assume that it met with
whatever criteria that he/she/it specified.
There is one problem though if you are going to refer to the "Word of
God". the Moslems have a book that they say was written, actually
dictated, by the Angel Gabriel at the express direction of God. and
since it was the same God, the God of Abraham, it must be equally as
valid as the Jewish books.
Cheers,
John D.
(jdslocombatgmail)