Continental solenoid starter stopped working
Ignoramus8104
would sputter occasionally but would never really keep going.
After a while, the starter stopped starting. I took off the solenoid
part from it, after taking pictures. It does not even seem that the
current goes through the solenoid coil.
Before I start taking it apart, I wanted to hear some words of wisdom
on this. Could it at all be that the solenoid coil inside burned out?
i
Jim Wilkins
wrote:
Clip a voltmeter onto the battery and watch the drop.
I've had no-starts from corroded wires, a battery with one weak cell,
the Ford fender solenoid, eroded solenoid disk and contacts, brushes
worn short, and a stripped plastic pinion gear. All were easily fixed
without replacing the starter.
jsw
Pintlar
of the fender solenoid (one of two heavy lugs). The other heavy lug went to
the starter only. It was switched by the small center lug that was supplied
power from a second small wire from the 'battery side of the solenoid. When
the 'start button or key' is on and the motor will not run evenly (or start
when cranked) it appears that the batter/solenoid lug is loose or corroded.
Or the battery terminals. With good connections all around and the key on,
it should start when cranked.
***********************************
"Ignoramus8104" <ignora...@NOSPAM.8104.invalid> wrote in message
news:YuudnesqFeKm9hPQ...@giganews.com...
cl...@snyder.on.ca
My understanding is this Conti has a "delco style" pre-engage starter,
with the solenoid not only being the switch, but engaging the drive.
These solenoids have TWO windings - a "pull-in" and a "hold in"
winding.On a 3 terminal solenoid both windings connect to the small
"S" terminal, and one coil connects to ground, while the other
connects to the "M" connection (the large connector that bolts to the
motor winding connector).
Check both with an ohm-meter or a continuity tester. If either one is
open, buy a new solenoid and install it.
SOME of these solenoids have 4 terminals - with the fourth being a
second small terminal that recieves power from the battery when the
solenoid is pulled in to bypass the ignition ballast resistor.
Delco solenoids are cheap.
Ignoramus446
Yes. This is what it does.
I took off the solenoid yesterday. It seemed fine. It does get "stuck"
sometimes and does nothing when powered on. A light whack with a
urethane hammer "unsticks" it.
However, even then, it barely cranks the engine. I did check
batteries.
I have a feeling that this solenoid itself is bad and does not work
right. It costs $19 to replace and I ordered a replacement. If it does
not help, I am out $19.
i
Jim Wilkins
wrote:
> ...
> I took off the solenoid yesterday. It seemed fine. It does get "stuck"
> sometimes and does nothing when powered on. A light whack with a
> urethane hammer "unsticks" it.
>
> However, even then, it barely cranks the engine. I did check
> batteries.
The voltmeter on the battery catches everything, try it on your truck
to see normal operation. It should drop a couple of volts when the
starter loads it down. If it doesn't the current is too low for some
bad reason.
How easily does the engine turn with a wrench?
jsw
John
A cheap and simple way to check if you have a starter problem or a
battery problem is to turn on the headlights when you crank the engine
and see how much the headlights dim. Then feel the cables going to the
starter and see if they are warm... If they are your starter is drawing
a full load and either it is bad or the engine is stuck. A wrench on
the engine to turn the crank will determine what is bad.
John
Larry Jaques
<ignora...@NOSPAM.446.invalid> wrote:
>I took off the solenoid yesterday. It seemed fine. It does get "stuck"
>sometimes and does nothing when powered on. A light whack with a
>urethane hammer "unsticks" it.
>However, even then, it barely cranks the engine. I did check
>batteries.
>
>I have a feeling that this solenoid itself is bad and does not work
>right. It costs $19 to replace and I ordered a replacement. If it does
>not help, I am out $19.
Make sure you lube the shaft/bearings/pivots while you have it down.
--
If the only prayer you ever say in your whole
life is "thank you," that would suffice.
-- Meister Eckhart
Paul K. Dickman
"Ignoramus446" <ignora...@NOSPAM.446.invalid> wrote in message
news:ONydnbk0Sa6SKhLQ...@giganews.com...
Also, check the brushes and commutator on the starter.
If they get loaded up with crud, they won't get the starter up to speed.
This ain't a 6volt is it?
Paul K. Dickman
Rich Grise
> Jim Wilkins wrote:
>> On Mar 27, 6:15 pm, Ignoramus446<ignoramus...@NOSPAM.446.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>> ...
>>> I took off the solenoid yesterday. It seemed fine. It does get "stuck"
>>> sometimes and does nothing when powered on. A light whack with a
>>> urethane hammer "unsticks" it.
>>>
>>> However, even then, it barely cranks the engine. I did check
>>> batteries.
>>
>> to see normal operation. It should drop a couple of volts when the
>> starter loads it down. If it doesn't the current is too low for some
>> bad reason.
>>
>> How easily does the engine turn with a wrench?
>
> battery problem is to turn on the headlights when you crank the engine
> and see how much the headlights dim. Then feel the cables going to the
> starter and see if they are warm... If they are your starter is drawing
> a full load and either it is bad or the engine is stuck. A wrench on
> the engine to turn the crank will determine what is bad.
>
cleaned? I once had an Econoline 100 with the old battery posts - it
would occasionally not crank, but just click a little bit. I had
one of those battery post tools, actually, had bought it specifically
for this car (ok, a van, but I called it my "tall car.") ;-)
Anyhoo, it had an inward-facing wire brush, for the lead posts, on one
end, and on the other, under a metal cap, was an outward-pointing wire
brush, for the inside of those nasty old lead terminals that always
get^H^H^ot fucked up.
I'd get out, give them a once-over, and the tall car would pop right
off.
These days, they're all copper screw things on sealed batteries, but
copper corrodes too, just from being out in the engine compartment
air. Take them off, and hit both the terminal and the battery contact
with a wire brush, aggressively.
Whether it helps or not, it couldn't hoit! ;-)
Cheers!
Rich
Ignoramus446
I am pretty sure that it is 12 volts.
Where are the brushes? Behind the back cover of the starter?
Ignoramus446
Well, the voltage stays near 11v on the starter. It is not so bad.
Where exactly are the brushes on the statrer? In the back? Are they of
common type?
i
John
There is a strap or band on the back end of the starter. The brushes
are under the band. There is usually a bolt and nut that holds the band
tight. Starters are easy to overhaul. I've done more than I ever want
to remember when i was a kid long ago while working in a repair garage.
John
RoyJ
http://www.colemanequip.com/Case-580C-Loader-Backhoes-Parts/Electrical-System-FY/R29870-STARTER-DELCO-REMY-0qh8/
Pull the back end off, brushes and bearings will be in plain view.
Ignoramus446
> Ignoramus446 wrote:
>>> A cheap and simple way to check if you have a starter problem or a
>>> battery problem is to turn on the headlights when you crank the engine
>>> and see how much the headlights dim. Then feel the cables going to the
>>> starter and see if they are warm... If they are your starter is drawing
>>> a full load and either it is bad or the engine is stuck. A wrench on
>>> the engine to turn the crank will determine what is bad.
>>>
>>> John
>>
>> Well, the voltage stays near 11v on the starter. It is not so bad.
>>
>> Where exactly are the brushes on the statrer? In the back? Are they of
>> common type?
>
>
> are under the band. There is usually a bolt and nut that holds the band
> tight. Starters are easy to overhaul. I've done more than I ever want
> to remember when i was a kid long ago while working in a repair garage.
Thisi s great, sounds like something that I can do. How would I go
about replacing the brushes, if they are bad? Are they something
standard, that I can get at Napa?
If I do it, I would probably do both brushes and bearings.
I am modestly familiar with bearings, but not with brushes.
i
John
Starters mostly all have bushings rather than bearings... It is just a
matter of removing the old bushing and replacing it with a new one. You
can replace the brushes through the holes in the back of the starter
without disassembling it. The first thing to check is that the existing
brushes move freely in the brush housing. A can of electroclean will
remove any crud in the brush housing. Look at the commutator for any
arcing or burned segments. If you got a burned segment from arcing it
usually means you have a bad armature or open armature. Usually the
heavy winding where they are soldered to the segments crack and don't
make connection. Also you have to check the armature windings for
shorts to the armature itself. In the garage I used a light bulb
plugged into the wall with two leads to put across the segments and the
armature... not very safe but very effective. A megger would be much
better.
Not sure what model starter you have. If it is the one with the coil
piggybacked on the side of the starter I bet the contacts in the
solenoid are burned. You can pull the top of the solenoid off and look
at the big copper washer that shorts out the two big poles on the
solenoid. the washer gets burned and pitted. you could build it up
with a little silver solder but I would just get another solenoid.
Sticky brushes, worn brushes and a bad solenoid are the most common
problems with starters.
John
Ignoramus446
Yes, it has a separate solenoid, the big copper washer is very burned
and pitted. I ordered a new solenoid assembly for $19.
I will pull the starter tomorrow and will go through it while waiting
for the new solenoid.
i
Jim Wilkins
wrote:
> ...>
> Yes, it has a separate solenoid, the big copper washer is very burned
> and pitted. I ordered a new solenoid assembly for $19.
>
> I will pull the starter tomorrow and will go through it while waiting
> for the new solenoid.
>
I couldn't buy the copper contacts separately for my Accord so I piled
up brazing rod to restore the original size and turned/filed it
smooth. The brass contacts lasted ~50,000 miles, then I added more.
Brass melts at a lower temperature than copper.
NAPA didn't have Ford starter brushes but a local motor rebuilding
shop did.
This page shows an ammeter that senses the magnetic field around the
wire to the the starter:
http://www.kick-fix.com/nocrank.html
Mine has a 400A range for the starter and a 75A range for charging
current, selected by which guide slot you press against the wire. It's
useful for checking winch and inverter current too.
jsw
Jim Wilkins
>...
> http://www.kick-fix.com/nocrank.html
> ...
> jsw
The real reason for removing the negative terminal first and
installing it last is because there's no short circuit hazard if the
wrench hits other metal. Once the negative is disconnected the
positive won't short either.
jsw
cl...@snyder.on.ca
The PROPER test is a voltage drop test on both the pos and Neg side.
In a few seconds you can pin down EXACTLY where the problem is if it
is on the "power" side, not the control. Can do voltage drop on the
control side too, which often also finds the problem there.
Look it up. I could tell you how to do it, but what fun would that
be???
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Can't get much more common than Delco - and if the brushes are poor
the "pull in" winding does not get grounded, so the solenoid "sticks"
From your description (starts when you hit the starter sometimes) I'd
pretty well bet your brushes are worn down to the nub.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
wrote:
sorry, buster, but there is no band on a Delco starter. The back end
bell comes off, and the brushes are inside. You need to take the
starter off and apart - but there is no simpler starter to work on.
Ignoramus7104
Exactly!
> From your description (starts when you hit the starter sometimes) I'd
> pretty well bet your brushes are worn down to the nub.
That's good to know. I will open it up tonight or tomorrow. I would
like to rebuild the starter if possible.
i
John
Some delcos have a band and some you pull the back bell but not all of them.
John
cl...@snyder.on.ca
wrote:
The last Delco starter I saw with a band on it was on a '37 Pontiac,
and it had no solenoid. By 1949, they all had solenoids and no more
bands. The change came somewhere in the early-mid forties when the
foot operated starter disappeared.
A lot of older Autolite/Prestolite starters have the band.
The beauty of the older Delco Pre-Engage starters is the brushes were
installed with SCREWS, so no soldering required to do the job.
John
Many delco aircraft starters have a band on them. Most of the ones with
a band are mounted on the accessory case. The continental engines are
the ones that have the starter mounted on the accessory case.
John
cl...@snyder.on.ca
wrote:
But this is NOT an aircraft engine - and the Delco aircraft starters
(in particular for Continental engines) also have NO solenoid (they
are not pre-engage starters) and are virtually all pre 1946 designs
(frozen in time due to certification issues) Also, the Delco starter
used on Continental O-145 to O-300 did NOT have a removeable band. And
even then, the Delco was a minority player in that market -there were
several other manufacturers that made the majority of starters for
those engines
The continental engine in question is a flathead industrial engine -
most likely a Continental Red Seal, which is visually and
conceptually extremely similar to the old Chrysler Flathead, except
the distributor in mounted straight up on the head instead of coming
out the side on an angle .
Used on a lot of "assembled" automobiles, ag equipment, industrial
equipment, generators and welders.
Ignoramus23509
Wow!
Yes, it is a Red Seal engine!
The starter is 1109437
Any idea where I can get replacement brushes?
i
Gunner Asch
I have pictures of both engines....
Chrysler flat head....
https://picasaweb.google.com/gunnerasch/1943HobartGasolineWelder#
Continental F163
https://picasaweb.google.com/gunnerasch/Miller55G#
<<G>>
Btw..the Hobart is surplus to my needs and frankly..in my way.
Anyone interested? Runs like a champ and welds absolutely wonderfully!
Gunner
--
"You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once."
Robert A. Heinlein
Ignoramus23509
Gunner, how is that Continental doing?
i
Gunner Asch
Sigh...still sitting in my guys shop, untouched. Its on a Miller 55G
that Id REALLY like to get up and running. I need to go down that and
rustle his feathers a bit. He has gotten a fair amount of machinery free
from me..and Im getting a bit...tired of waiting for him to start on it.
Its not freaking rocket science afterall.
Ive got the trailer ready to put it on, Ive got leads, TIG stuff and all
the bells and whistles at hand to equip it with (it does TIG as well as
stick..and MIG <G>) and Ive got a nice old Lincoln 8 wire feeder ready
to stick on it as well.
But..sigh..he is from India...and has a different sense of time I think.
Gunner
Leon Fisk
I would check your local Yellow pages for Alternator/Starter
rebuilders. Like this maybe:
http://niles-il.yellowusa.com/Alternators_and_Generators_Automotive.html
It was many years ago... but the last ones I bought came from a
hole-in-the-wall rebuilder in my area. Place looked like a rats nest
but the parts were brand new, handed to me loose. Guy even volunteered
a few pointers for replacing them myself. Make a few phone calls and
see which ones will sell you some parts...
--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email
cl...@snyder.on.ca
wrote:
Makes "manana" look fast????
cl...@snyder.on.ca
>>Yes, it is a Red Seal engine!
>>
>>The starter is 1109437
>>
>>Any idea where I can get replacement brushes?
>>
as a whole slew of other makes from 1956 to 1992? - The high torque
model started in about 1964, and other than the drive end housing
(which is interchangeable) virtually any 10MT is the same.
Starter brush part number should be 79-300-4
Ignoramus23509
> (in particular for Continental engines) also have NO solenoid (they
> are not pre-engage starters) and are virtually all pre 1946 designs
> (frozen in time due to certification issues) Also, the Delco starter
> used on Continental O-145 to O-300 did NOT have a removeable band. And
> even then, the Delco was a minority player in that market -there were
> several other manufacturers that made the majority of starters for
> those engines
>
> The continental engine in question is a flathead industrial engine -
> most likely a Continental Red Seal, which is visually and
> conceptually extremely similar to the old Chrysler Flathead, except
> the distributor in mounted straight up on the head instead of coming
> out the side on an angle .
>
> Used on a lot of "assembled" automobiles, ag equipment, industrial
> equipment, generators and welders.
I took the starter off. The teeth look pretty good. At this point, I
blame brushes, I am soaking it in a cleaner spray to wipe off the
dirt, and then I will take it apart.
i
Ignoramus23509
Thank you!
I took apart my starter & I will make a separate post.
i
Gunner Asch
Somewhat. To be fair..he has a sick wife and a second job, and his
financial issues are no better than mine.
I called him yesterday from LA and willl talk to him this weekend.