Democrats taxed the railroads to death

[Bill Steele]

Yes Democrats. Those Democrats who never learn from history.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wD8bJ0K93EQ

America was forced to subsidize railroad passenger service
because Democrats taxed them out of existence.

[Fred Hababorbitz]

It was Dwight D. Eisenhower (a republican) that killed the railroads with interstate highways. This seemed like a good idea at the time, but the failure was to build government (tax payer) subsidized rail along side of the interstate system. If you think Amtrak is expensive, just think what this would cost.

[conklin]

"Bill Steele" <ws21-4079F1.1...@70-3-168-216.pools.spcsdns.net>
wrote in message news:3c9967b0d19a5bef...@dizum.com...

Lies never cease about Amtrak and passenger travel.

[Gunner Asch]

Which lies are you talking about?

"lies never cease about Air Travel and Cargo Containers"


--
Liberals want everyone to think like them.
Conservatives want everyone to think.

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
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[F. George McDuffee]

On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 11:03:06 +0100 (CET), "Bill Steele"
<ws21-4079F1.1...@70-3-168-216.pools.spcsdns.net>
wrote:

=======================

And this had nothing to do with incompetent and arrogant RR
management that refused to recognize/adapt to technological,
social and demographic changes? Shows again how easy it is
easy to "denominator manage" a viable company into
bankruptcy/liquidation.

click here for RR management theme music
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PElwisJzBBE

[First-Post]

More like:

Government regulation

From approximately 1910 to 1921, the federal government introduced a
populist rate-setting scheme. During World War I the railroads proved
incapable of functioning as a cohesive network. This forced the United
States Government to nationalize the rail industry temporarily. In the
1920s railroad profits stagnated, many redundant and unprofitable
lines were abandoned, and many passenger facilities were allowed to
fall into a cycle of deferred maintenance, all of which in small ways
drove passengers away, either by higher fares or less appealing
service. At the same time, the rise in popularity of the automobile
and US Highways such as the Lincoln Highway began to eat away at local
rail passenger traffic. Increases in labor costs also further hindered
the railroads ability to make profits on smaller and more sparsely
populated lines.

The primary regulatory authority affecting railroads, beginning in the
late 19th century, was the Interstate Commerce Commission (ICC). The
ICC played a leading role in rate-setting which would at times
hindered railroad's ability to be profitable in the passenger market.
In the 1930s, train speeds were ever increasing, but no advance were
being made in signalling and safety systems to prevent collisions.
This led to the horrific Naperville train disaster of 1946 and other
crashes in New York in 1950. In 1947 the ICC issued an order requiring
US railroads, by the end of 1951, to install automatic train stop,
automatic train control or cab signalling wherever any trains would
travel at 80 mph (130 km/h) or faster.

Such technology was not widely implemented outside the Northeast,
effectively placing a speed limit in other areas which is still in
effect today, and why the 79 mph (127 km/h) maximum passenger train
speed is common in the United States. In 1958, the ICC was granted
authority to allow or reject modifications and eliminations of
passenger routes (train-offs). Many routes required beneficial
pruning, but the ICC delayed action by an average of eight months and
when it did authorize modifications, the ICC insisted that
unsuccessful routes be merged with profitable ones. Thus, fast,
popular rail service was transformed into slow, unpopular service.

The ICC was even more critical of corporate mergers. Many combinations
which railroads sought to complete were delayed for years and even
decades, such as the merger of the New York Central Railroad and
Pennsylvania Railroad, into what eventually became Penn Central, and
the Delaware, Lackawanna and Western Railroad and Erie Railroad into
the Erie Lackawanna Railway. By the time the ICC approved the mergers
in the 1960s, slower trains, years of deteriorating equipment and
station facilities, and the flight of passengers to air and automobile
transportation had taken their toll and the mergers were unsuccessful
at preserving these railroad's passenger train service. It is
important to note the Erie Lackawanna was never a major hauler of
passengers, nor its predecessor roads, and was mostly a freight
railroad. The Penn Central merger was a failure because it merged two
large struggling railroads on paper only, two separate management
structures remained with little or no integration of assets or
management of the former Pennsylvania Railroad and New York Central
system. The massive overhead costs of this operating scheme played a
far greater role in the Penn Central failure than any actions take by
the ICC or any other US Government agency.

Taxation

At the same time, railroads carried a substantial tax burden. A World
War II�era excise tax of 15% on passenger rail travel survived until
1962. Local governments, far from providing needed support to
passenger rail, viewed rail infrastructure as a ready source for
property tax revenues. In one extreme example, in 1959, the Great
Northern Railway, which owned about a third of one percent (0.34%) of
the land in Lincoln County, Montana, was assessed more than 91% of all
school taxes in the county. To this day, railroads are generally taxed
at a higher rate than other industries, and the rates vary greatly
from state to state.

Labor-related issues

Railroads also faced antiquated work rules and inflexible
relationships with trade unions. Work rules did not adapt to
technological change. Average train speeds had doubled from 1919 to
1959, but unions resisted efforts to modify their existing 100- to
150-mile work days. As a result, railroad workers' average work days
were roughly cut in half, from 5�7� hours in 1919 to 2��3� hours in
1959. Labor rules also perpetuated positions that had been obviated by
technology; for example, when steam locomotives were replaced with
diesel locomotives the rules required a fireman or stoker aboard the
engine at all times, even in switching yards. Between 1947 and 1957,
passenger railroad financial efficiency dropped by 42% per mile.

Subsidized competition

While passenger rail faced internal and governmental pressures, new
challenges appeared that undermined the dominance of passenger rail:
highways and commercial aviation. The passenger rail industry declined
as governments put money into the construction of highways and
government-owned airports and the air traffic control system.

As automobiles became more attainable to most Americans, the freedom,
increased convenience and individualization of automobile travel
became the norm for most Americans. Government actively began to
respond with funds from its treasury and later with fuel-tax funds to
build a non-profit network of roads not subject to property taxation.
Highways then surpassed the for-profit rail network that the railroads
had built in previous generations with corporate capital and
government land grants. All told between 1921 and 1955 governmental
entities, using taxpayer money and in response to taxpayer demand,
financed more than $93 billion worth of pavement, construction, and
maintenance.

In the 1950s affordable commercial aviation expanded as the Jet Age
arrived. Governmental entities built urban and suburban airports,
funded construction of highways to provide access to the airports, and
provided air traffic control services.

Loss of U.S. Mail contracts

Until 1966, most U.S. Postal Service mail was transported on passenger
trains. The mail contracts kept many passenger trains economically
viable. In 1966, the U.S. Postal Service switched to trucks and
airplanes, subsidizing planes instead of trains, which no longer had
mail as a source of revenue.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amtrak

[jon_banquer]

I never knew that automobiles and airplanes were evil plots by Democrats to destroy America.

Thanks for setting the record straight, "Bill". I'll always remember the great champions of railroads and mass transit:

Ronald Reagan

Bush Sr.

Bush Jr.

If only the Democrats would not have stopped them and their vigorous campaign for better mass transportation.

[John B.]

But he didn't "kill the railroads". He simply directed the building of
a transportation network that proved more efficient than the railroads
and nature took its course.

The building of the major rail systems was originally financed by the
free land that the government gave the rail companies.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[jon_banquer]

We have shit mass transit in this country. That needs to change. Now.

[eric h]

Most of the railroads died off because the railroads refused to deal with emerging realities. Other companies took up the slack and the railroads were left with a lot of expensive equipment running empty.

[Glen Labah]

In article <3c9967b0d19a5bef...@dizum.com>,
"Bill Steele"

And it was under the Harding (a Republican) administration that the work
day was reduced from 12 hours to 8 hours (oh horrors, how will industry
ever make a profit now, with workers working such limited hours!).

--
Please note this e-mail address is a pit of spam due to e-mail address
harvesters on Usenet. Response time to e-mail sent here is slow.

[Jim Wilkins]

"eric h" <ericch...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:48546476-e5b3-4ffd...@googlegroups.com...

> Most of the railroads died off because the railroads refused to deal
> with emerging realities. Other companies took up the slack and the
> railroads were left with a lot of expensive equipment running empty.

The railroads declined because trucks and roads allowed industry to
expand to wherever the land was cheap instead of restricting it to
expensive narrow corridors. The greedy practices of railroad
management and unions helped motivate the shift but it was the IC
engine that enabled it.

jsw

[Gunner Asch]

So this worked the same way with those evil trolly car companies?

[PrecisionmachinisT]

"Jim Wilkins" <murat...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:l6asuj$co8$2...@dont-email.me...

And big oil might well have played a bigger part here than most folks
realize...

--pretty much anything can be burned to make steam; the automoble being
fairly well established several decades before the diesel-electric finally
took over the majority of tracks.

[spamT...@yahoo.com]

'More efficient' for certain types of efficiency, much less efficient in others.

A large part of the demise of the 'small business' railroads, many interurban lines were purchased by a consortium of auto makers for the sole purpose of scrapping them and forcing the purchase of automobiles.

[Ignoramus32364]

On 2013-11-18, spamT...@yahoo.com <spamT...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> A large part of the demise of the 'small business' railroads, many
> interurban lines were purchased by a consortium of auto makers for
> the sole purpose of scrapping them and forcing the purchase of
> automobiles.

This sounds slightly outlandish. Do you have a cite for that?

i

[F. George McDuffee]

====================

More than outlandish -- incredible, but see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy
<snip>
Between 1936 and 1950, National City Lines and Pacific City
Lines�with investment from GM, Firestone Tire, Standard Oil
of California, Phillips Petroleum, Mack Trucks, and the
Federal Engineering Corporation�bought over 100 electric
surface-traction systems in 45 cities including Baltimore,
Newark, Los Angeles, New York City, Oakland and San Diego
and converted them into bus operation. Several of the
companies involved were convicted in 1949 of conspiracy to
monopolize interstate commerce but were acquitted of
conspiring to monopolize the ownership of these companies.
<snip>

for 249k hits google on {LA streetcars "general motors"}

More history that is never taught in school...

[nob...@nowhere.net]

CantOn Mon, 18 Nov 2013 09:41:56 -0600, Ignoramus32364

Los Angeles California had a great street car system. It was put out
of business after a GM executive bought the company. The government
objected and a minor fine was paid. I was there and read the details
in the LA Times newspaper.

[Gunner Asch]

Sometimes the Truth is indeed stranger than fiction.


__
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet,
balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying,
take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations,
analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer,
cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."
- Heinlein

[Gunner Asch]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_American_streetcar_scandal


They did the same with Detroit. I actually remember seeing street
cars in Detroit. They shut them down in 1957..when I was 3-4 yrs old.

Some things ... stick in ones head...shrug

[Jim Wilkins]

"Gunner Asch" <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:kh8i89lp1qqr1f16f...@4ax.com...

> On Sun, 17 Nov 2013 08:57:31 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
> <murat...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>"eric h" <ericch...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:48546476-e5b3-4ffd...@googlegroups.com...
>>> Most of the railroads died off because the railroads refused to
>>> deal
>>> with emerging realities. Other companies took up the slack and
>>> the
>>> railroads were left with a lot of expensive equipment running
>>> empty.
>>
>>The railroads declined because trucks and roads allowed industry to
>>expand to wherever the land was cheap instead of restricting it to
>>expensive narrow corridors. The greedy practices of railroad
>>management and unions helped motivate the shift but it was the IC
>>engine that enabled it.
>>
>>jsw
>>
> So this worked the same way with those evil trolly car companies?
>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy

http://marketurbanism.com/2010/09/23/the-great-american-streetcar-myth/
"Franklin Delano Roosevelt's own Works Progress Administration was
tearing up streetcar tracks in Manhattan years before National City
Lines began doing the same in far less transit-worthy places."

"With car-borne constituents and an economic ideology to defend,
modern day liberals have apparently found their own culpability in the
rise of the suburbs too tough a pill to swallow, and so they've
settled on General Motors, Standard Oil, and Firestone Tire as
scapegoats. But just because they can't face their history doesn't
mean that we shouldn't."

Around here the streetcars disappeared in the late1920's for lack of
riders. The tracks remained in the pavement until the early 80's.

I lived in Germany in the early 1970's when city traffic was rapidly
increasing to the limits of available parking despite very convenient
and inexpensive urban mass transit. The fundamental reason is that
cars are freedom.

jsw

[Jim Wilkins]

"Ignoramus32364" <ignoram...@NOSPAM.32364.invalid> wrote in
message news:y_qdnZJHCpvZqBfP...@giganews.com...

I tried to post this yesterday but the server didn't accept until a
few minutes ago

[Gunner Asch]

On Sun, 17 Nov 2013 18:15:05 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"

Odd then that the streetcars in Frisco are money makers....isnt it?

__
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet,
balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying,
take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations,
analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer,
cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."
- Heinlein

[Jim Wilkins]

"Gunner Asch" <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:291l8913r1atr2j2c...@4ax.com...

> On Sun, 17 Nov 2013 18:15:05 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
> <murat...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Odd then that the streetcars in Frisco are money makers....isnt it?
>

I've never been there, but I'd MUCH rather take public transportation
in Boston and New York than drive and park. In winter at Northeasterrn
U in Boston I parked my 4WD truck on top of a snowbank in the corner
of the otherwise jammed lot.
jsw

[No 'cull'; no 'list'; no 'those who keep the list']

The streetcars are not public transit in the ordinary sense. Locals in
SF don't ride them to commute to work, go do their shopping, visit
friends and family, etc. They're money makers in the same sense that
Disneyland is a money maker: tourists like them.


--

People who have been in the military
did not do military "duty" or
"service"; they just had a military
job for a while. Calling it "duty"
suggests it is owed. It is not.

[Gunner Asch]

On Mon, 18 Nov 2013 16:37:03 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"

<murat...@gmail.com> wrote:

>"Gunner Asch" <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:291l8913r1atr2j2c...@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 17 Nov 2013 18:15:05 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
>> <murat...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Odd then that the streetcars in Frisco are money makers....isnt it?
>>
>
>I've never been there, but I'd MUCH rather take public transportation
>in Boston and New York than drive and park. In winter at Northeasterrn
>U in Boston I parked my 4WD truck on top of a snowbank in the corner
>of the otherwise jammed lot.
>jsw
>

I would too. And on the rare occasions Im in Frisco for anything other
than work..I ride the trolleys.

Its not the driving that's the problem..its the parking...there isn't
any.

Gunner

[pyotr filipivich]

Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com> on Mon, 18 Nov 2013 13:23:18 -0800
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

>
>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy
>>
>>http://marketurbanism.com/2010/09/23/the-great-american-streetcar-myth/
>>"Franklin Delano Roosevelt's own Works Progress Administration was
>>tearing up streetcar tracks in Manhattan years before National City
>>Lines began doing the same in far less transit-worthy places."
>>
>>"With car-borne constituents and an economic ideology to defend,
>>modern day liberals have apparently found their own culpability in the
>>rise of the suburbs too tough a pill to swallow, and so they've
>>settled on General Motors, Standard Oil, and Firestone Tire as
>>scapegoats. But just because they can't face their history doesn't
>>mean that we shouldn't."
>>
>>Around here the streetcars disappeared in the late1920's for lack of
>>riders. The tracks remained in the pavement until the early 80's.
>>
>>I lived in Germany in the early 1970's when city traffic was rapidly
>>increasing to the limits of available parking despite very convenient
>>and inexpensive urban mass transit. The fundamental reason is that
>>cars are freedom.
>>
>>jsw
>>
>
>Odd then that the streetcars in Frisco are money makers....isnt it?

Tourists.
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

[pyotr filipivich]

"Jim Wilkins" <murat...@gmail.com> on Mon, 18 Nov 2013 16:37:03
-0500 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

That there is a main selling point for public transportation: no
need to find a parking place. At least "in town". OTOH, if you are
taking a buss into town, you'll need to find a parking place at the
start end. "Park and Ride" - extending the commute.
Drawback to public transport - getting "stuff" around. Groceries
are an obvious item, but anything else which doesn't fit in your
pocket can be an issue.

[pyotr filipivich]

Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com> on Mon, 18 Nov 2013 10:32:34 -0800

typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

>On Mon, 18 Nov 2013 12:15:02 -0500, nob...@nowhere.net wrote:
>
>>CantOn Mon, 18 Nov 2013 09:41:56 -0600, Ignoramus32364
>><ignoram...@NOSPAM.32364.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>On 2013-11-18, spamT...@yahoo.com <spamT...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> A large part of the demise of the 'small business' railroads, many
>>>> interurban lines were purchased by a consortium of auto makers for
>>>> the sole purpose of scrapping them and forcing the purchase of
>>>> automobiles.
>>>
>>>This sounds slightly outlandish. Do you have a cite for that?
>>>
>>>i
>>Los Angeles California had a great street car system. It was put out
>>of business after a GM executive bought the company. The government
>>objected and a minor fine was paid. I was there and read the details
>>in the LA Times newspaper.
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_American_streetcar_scandal
>
>
>They did the same with Detroit. I actually remember seeing street
>cars in Detroit. They shut them down in 1957..when I was 3-4 yrs old.

When Portland decided to put in light rail, they discovered a
number of layers of tracks around town - buried under the roads.

[Jim Wilkins]

"pyotr filipivich" <ph...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:96nl895dvgravlpnh...@4ax.com...

> Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com> on Mon, 18 Nov 2013
> 13:23:18 -0800
> typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
>>
>>

>>Odd then that the streetcars in Frisco are money makers....isnt it?
>
> Tourists.
> --
> pyotr filipivich

In tourist areas even inefficient, high-maintenance steam trains and
riverboats can survive.

jsw

[Larry Jaques]

Luckily, yes!

I once rode the old diesel train into Verde Canyon, near Sedona, AZ.
'Twas a blast! I want to ride an old Puffer Valley (wood-fired steam)
train, though. I'll pass on a coal-burning stinker, thanks.
http://verdecanyonrr.com/

More usually, though, I prefer the roads less traveled. The hike
through the temperate rainforests of backstreet Honolulu to Manoa
Falls was one of the best strolls (1/2 mile up a thickly forested
mountain) I've ever taken. Highly recommended, if the old bod is up
to it.

--
We are always the same age inside.
-- Gertrude Stein

[Gunner Asch]

In this economy..there are still tourists in Frisco??

>--
>pyotr filipivich
>"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

[No 'cull'; no 'list'; no 'those who keep the list']

Hundreds of thousands, gummer.

[jon_banquer]

On Tuesday, November 19, 2013 9:44:20 AM UTC-8, Gunner Asch wrote:

> In this economy..there are still tourists in Frisco??

How would Mark Wieber know? His posts show that he's trapped in a neighborhood filled with meth addicts and that he's so poor that he has to rent out rooms of his manufactured home to survive.

[pyotr filipivich]

Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com> on Tue, 19 Nov 2013 09:44:20 -0800

Of course, Yankee dollar very cheap, good place to go for
vacation.