File coarseness
jay
Hi there
I use files quite a bit in my shop.
I grab one & feel it's coarseness w/ my thumb & look @
it's shape to decide whether to use it or another. I've never
known what I was actually using. I've decided
to buy a few USA made different lengths & cuts all @ once.
After looking @ some catalogs, I've come up against the same
question I've been wondering about for years:
How do I find out what the coarseness of 1 length file of
a given cut is compared to a different length of a different cut.
For example: Is a 6” bastard courser than a 14” 2nd cut?
Or, is a 14” smooth cut smoother that a 6” 2nd cut? If so how can
I find out what it is & by how much.
I've read Machinery's 28th pages 962 through 965. Nothing.
Nothing that gives me definitive quantitative answer.
I've Googled, I've looked in Wikipedia.
The only thing I found is a photo of 3 files that says something to
the effect of “a bastard has ~ 25 teeth /in; 2nd cut has ~35th /in;
& a smooth cut has ~ 60th/ in”. (These # aren't accurate, I'm not
looking @ the site, they are from memory, but in the ball park)
Also I don't remember having ever used a file that the handle would
stay on. I probably have but just don't remember it. The files I buy
will probably not have handles. Who makes an after market handle
that stays on. Maybe I should buy the cheapest wooden ones &
epoxy them in place. I assume that would work. No?
Thanks for any info, JD
Tom Gardner
"jay" <jdre...@gmail.com> wrote in message
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********************************************
Do you chalk your files?
dca...@krl.org
> Also I don't remember having ever used a file that the handle would
> stay on. I probably have but just don't remember it. The files I buy
> will probably not have handles. Who makes an after market handle
> that stays on. Maybe I should buy the cheapest wooden ones &
> epoxy them in place. I assume that would work. No?
>
> Thanks for any info, JD
I use golf balls for file handles. Just drill a hole that the small
end of the tang will fit into. They stay in place.
I would recommend getting a type A aluminum file if you do much with
aluminum. They remove aluminum quickly but leave a pretty smooth
surface.
Dan
jay
> "jay" <jdrew...@gmail.com> wrote in message
No, & you know that's odd, & I don't know why, but I haven't had much
of a problem w/ files loading up, even though I file aluminum
occasionally.
I lube a file before & after use & take a filecard to it after use.
What little
the filecard doesn't get, I use a pick on.
I do remember back in 1960 when I 1st started working in a shop, it
was
much more of problem & getting yelled at by the master mechanics I
was
working with, about half of whom were total assholes. Aluminum has
gotten much harder over the years, at least the alloys I work w/ today
have.
Could that be the difference? Or maybe the difference was that I was
a
snoot nosed punk, who didn't clean files before putting them away.
Having said all that, I am going to start using chalk. It's little
enough
trouble.
Thanks, JD
jay
Type A file. I do file some aluminum. That's a good idea.
Golf balls. Hmm. Do U use more than 1 ball if the tang is long enough?
Thanks, JD
dca...@krl.org
The idea of using golf balls came from someone here in RCM. I just
use one ball. I have a bunch of big files, but don't think any of
them has a tang long enough for more than one golf ball.
Dan
sta...@prolynx.com
You'll find different manufacturers have their own ideas as to what
constitutes a "smooth" cut file, for example. And needle files used
to have numbers corresponding to how fine the cut was, no
corresponding between makers. Same cut in the same manufacturer's
line should be the same TPI no matter what size or pattern the file
is. Somewhere I've got a really old shop manual naming the cuts
available back then with TPI ranges and photos of the various
patterns. You'd be lucky today to find a 10th of the different ones
thay had back then.
Re: file handles:
Best I've found has been one sort that has two ridged jaws like a
brace chuck. Opens up in a taper, you turn a knurled disk on the end
and it draws the jaws back inside. Doesn't lose its grip, either.
Ace has had them, ditto True Value. You can make your own with a
little work, wood is easy to free-turn on a lathe, then use copper
plumbing pipe for ferrules. Have several of that sort, too, they
don't come off. You're supposed to PUSH with the things, not beat the
work on the head or drag the file with as much down pressure backwards
as what you do forwards.
Stan
Wild_Bill
time I've seen really coarse quality-made files in recent years, was at flea
markets/garage sales where some old stuff was dragged out of an attic or
other dry storage area.. where those great old files had been sitting for a
few decades or more.
For just about any files, aside from tiny/fine jewelers' files, one should
be able to produce 3-4 surface finishes.. each with different metal removal
rates.
Files can be pushed straight, allowed to drift/arc right or left while
cutting, or be drawn/pulled while held perpendicular to the direction of
travel while cutting.
Being a southpaw, files work differently than when being held right-handed.
Some of my most frequently used files for deburring are ones I made by
snapping the bare handle end off.. then attaching a handle suitable for
pulling, to the tip end.
These are very fast at taking off edges and corners when pulled. Narrow
three-sided ones are very handy for small parts that are easily held in one
hand, and the deburring file in the other.
Being southpaw, it's always felt natural to use a file on a lathe
workpiece.. something that would feel sorta weird if I held the handle
right-handed.
Then there are rasp/file combination tools that have very prickly teeth
raised up out of the metal, and these are really fast on aluminum, soft
metals and synthetic materials. There is a commonly available double-ended
combination rasp/file tool that I intentionally broke in half, then attached
with epoxy putty to longer pieces of aluminum bar stock to form a handled
tool that cuts on the pull stroke. With the prickly rasp teeth, it's a great
tool to prep a repair spot in fiberglas. The raised teeth really rip into
the resin and glass substrate, without raising a cloud of nasty dust such as
a grinder or sander would cause.
It seems that soapstone is a reasonable compound to put on files to keep the
teeth from clogging. I've used it for quite a while, and haven't found any
disadvantages to chalk.
Chalk will always be absorbing moisture, but I dunno if absorption is an
issue with soapstone.
--
WB
.........
<sta...@prolynx.com> wrote in message
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Buerste
<dca...@krl.org> wrote in message
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Dan
********************************************************
And a FAR better use for golf balls than what I usuallydo to them!
jeff_wisnia
I've used some file handles which "screw onto" the tang. The hole in
them looks sort of like the inside of a wirenut, but the wire looks like
it's triangular in cross section so it presents somewhat sharp threads
which dig into the tang.
Jeff
--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10e12 furlongs per fortnight.
Michael A. Terrell
Buerste wrote:
>
> ?dca...@krl.org? wrote in message
> news:ec7baeed-ec2c-439b...@r14g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
> On Nov 4, 11:37 am, jay ?jdrew...@gmail.com? wrote:
> ? On Nov 4, 6:16 am, "dcas...@krl.org" ?dcas...@krl.org? wrote:
> ?
> ?
> ?
> ? ? On Nov 4, 1:58 am, jay ?jdrew...@gmail.com? wrote:
> ?
> ? ? ? Also I don't remember having ever used a file that the handle would
> ? ? ? stay on. I probably have but just don't remember it. The files I buy
> ? ? ? will probably not have handles. Who makes an after market handle
> ? ? ? that stays on. Maybe I should buy the cheapest wooden ones ?
> ? ? ? epoxy them in place. I assume that would work. No?
> ?
> ? ? ? Thanks for any info, JD
> ?
> ? ? I use golf balls for file handles. Just drill a hole that the small
> ? ? end of the tang will fit into. They stay in place.
> ?
> ? ? I would recommend getting a type A aluminum file if you do much with
> ? ? aluminum. They remove aluminum quickly but leave a pretty smooth
> ? ? surface.
> ?
> ? ? Dan
> ?
> ? Type A file. I do file some aluminum. That's a good idea.
> ? Golf balls. Hmm. Do U use more than 1 ball if the tang is long enough?
> ? Thanks, JD
>
> The idea of using golf balls came from someone here in RCM. I just
> use one ball. I have a bunch of big files, but don't think any of
> them has a tang long enough for more than one golf ball.
>
> Dan
> ********************************************************
>
> And a FAR better use for golf balls than what I usuallydo to them!
We don't want to know what you do with them, you prevert! ;-)
--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.
Libtardopia Lost
"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:F8Odnd5Q3OM4hk7R...@earthlink.com...
So, do you want to smell my balls?
jay
U mean beat the work on the head, like one would beat little kids on
the head :-?
Thanks for all the good advice.
I don't have much of a problem reducing pressure on the back stroke of
a file,
but where I really fall down is w/ a hack saw. I really don't like
hack sawing
much. I go too fast, work up a sweat, & don't relieve enough pressure.
@ least
I don't like to hack saw any steel > ~ 1/4”. Softer or smaller I don't
mind so much.
Thanks again, JD
Michael A. Terrell
No, and I wish you would bathe. People can smell you for miles. :(
jay
wrote:
> Buerste wrote:
>
> > ?dcas...@krl.org? wrote in message
Prevert? Me? I was just expanding on Stans idea.
Rich Grise
>>> >>>
>>> The idea of using golf balls came from someone here in RCM. I just
>>> use one ball. I have a bunch of big files, but don't think any of
>>> them has a tang long enough for more than one golf ball.
>>>
>>
>> We don't want to know what you do with them, you prevert! ;-)
>
Cheers!
Rich
Michael A. Terrell
> >
> > We don't want to know what you do with them, you prevert! ;-)
>
Um, you missed the smiley?
jay
> "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net> wrote in messagenews:F8Odnd5Q3OM4hk7R...@earthlink.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > Buerste wrote:
>
> >> ?dcas...@krl.org? wrote in message
Only if your balls have been washed in the ball washer near the tee
off area
or whatever it's called, JD
jay
Soapstone does sound like a good idea. I don't know how much free
soapstone I have left from before I retired, quite a bit. If I hadn't
thrown
away most of it as it accumulated over the years, I'd have many Lbs.
left.
Thanks, again, JD
jay
Rt. handed sounds downright dangerous, especially w/ long sleeves.
Something I did a lot when younger, but almost never do now. Wearing
Tee shirts these days. Odd when I think of it.
Being somewhat ambidextrous,I probably filled left handed on a lathe.
I hacksaw left handed when I get tired Rt. Handed.
JD
Phil Kangas
<dca...@krl.org> wrote in message
news:7659ed07-90dc-4453...@f33g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 4, 1:58 am, jay <jdrew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Also I don't remember having ever used a file
> that the handle would
> stay on. I probably have but just don't remember
> it. The files I buy
> will probably not have handles. Who makes an
> after market handle
> that stays on. Maybe I should buy the cheapest
> wooden ones &
> epoxy them in place. I assume that would work.
> No?
>
> Thanks for any info, JD
I use golf balls for file handles. Just drill a
hole that the small
end of the tang will fit into. They stay in
place.
Dan
Just watch out for the liquid filled center ones!
phil
Larry Jaques
What do you usually do with the rest of the golfs once they're
castrated, anyway, Tawm?
--
Experience is a good teacher, but she send in terrific bills.
-- Minna Thomas Antrim
Michael A. Terrell
Toss them in the pot with the leftover frog parts?
Michael A. Terrell
SHHHH!!! :)
jay
wrote:
> Phil Kangas wrote:
>
> > <dcas...@krl.org> wrote in message
Back to my original post, Are there any preferences for Simonds vs.
Nicholson or anyother brand? I hope that's not a troll question like
Fords or Chevys.
Thanks, JD
jay
I would like to buy a set of files & not waste a lot of $ on files of
different lengths of ~ the same coarseness. Or buy individual files to
meet my needs, but that would probably be more expensive.
Any suggestions?
Thanks, JD
Michael A. Terrell
> like Fords or Chevys.
Nicholson was always my favorite, but it was one of the most common
availible, if a file had a brand name. A lot of them i sw didn't. I
had to find a 4" mill bastard a few months ago and ended up ordering a
Nicholson through Grainger's. My old ones (a pair) disappeared after 30
years of use.
Michael A. Terrell
jay wrote:
>
> I would like to buy a set of files & not waste a lot of $ on files of
> different lengths of ~ the same coarseness. Or buy individual files to
> meet my needs, but that would probably be more expensive.
If you only need a few, check out Grainger's or other online
distributors. I have a local Grainger's store, and they special ordered
what I needed from their warehouse.
I never had much luck with whole sets. Most of a 'set' was useless
for my work.
Tom Gardner
"jay" <jdre...@gmail.com> wrote in message
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*************************************
I always wash my balls before putting a dozen or so in my bag. Dirt in the
dimples affects the way they fly off into the woods on the right.
Tom Gardner
Most of my balls have smiles on them.
Tom Gardner
"Larry Jaques" <lja...@invalid.diversify.com> wrote in message
news:o9h6d6l1555gdhtun...@4ax.com...
Sell them to Volkswagen!
jay
> distributors. I have a local Grainger's store, and they special ordered
> what I needed from their warehouse.
OK that's what I am anticipating doing. but which ones to buy?
I want to to be able to produce a variety of finishes on hard steel,
to
aluminum, & other soft materials, w/ a minimum of work & a reasonably
minimum amount of files (read $).
What would some of the regular contributors here, people who
work regularly in shops, buy to meet my needs?
Please share any specific advice, JD
jay
wrote:
Yeah, that's pretty much been my experience w/ sets of anything. 1st
Aid kits,
U name it, JD
Michael A. Terrell
Tom Gardner wrote:
>
> Most of my balls have smiles on them.
So why do you hit them with a club? :)
Bob Engelhardt
> ... My old ones [files] (a pair) disappeared after 30
> years of use.
Doncha' hate that? I had that happen with a piece of sandpaper. <G>
Bob
Doug White
76b3be...@n10g2000prj.googlegroups.com:
Rule #1: Get good ones. Nicholson & Simonds are pretty good, Grobet is
better. Grobet also makes really nice handles that screw on & don't come
off (or loose).
I use 3 files more than any others by an order of magnitude:
#1 A fine 4" pointed half round file for knocking burrs off of stuff.
The sharp point is good for getting into small spots & holes:
Precision Half-Round Hand File 4" Long, 15/32" W X 9/64" Thickness, Swiss
pattern, Cut No. 2 (McMaster Carr #4248A23)
#2 Simonds 8" half round Multi-Kut. This is my favorite general purpose
file. It cuts reasonably fast, leaves a good finish, & doesn't clog too
quickly.
#3 Nicholson "Superior Standard" 10" half round soft metal file
(sometimes called a "lead float" or Babbitt file). This has widely
spaced arched teeth that leave a fairly smooth finish on soft materials
without clogging. Good for removing large amounts of material in brass,
aluminum & plastic. The trick is that Nicholson doesn't seem to sell the
large half-round ones any more (they have an 8"), and everyone has a
different name for them. They are used a lot for body work, planing down
body putty & filler. Note: some "babbitt" files have a more conventional
cut to the teeth. Simonds sells the right shape teeth on theirs, but
they only have flat.
It's also good to have a set of Swiss needle files in a fine & medium
cut. Good sets are spendy, but will long out last the cheap ones. The
price difference can be close to an order of magnitude. McMaster carries
$140 sets & $20 sets. I'd look for something in between, or try to catch
a good sale. Also a medium cut 1/4" round "rat tail" file, and a similar
sized triangular file.
Doug White
Wild_Bill
Doug describes with widely-spaced teeth, is Vixen file.
The teeth are spaced more similarly to gear rack, than to most common
metalworking files.
Vixen files were very popular in past decades/generations when all autobody
damage work was finished with a torch instead of a plastic spatula/spreader.
Vixen files rapidly peel away soft materials such as autobody lead for very
fast leveling of a surface.
http://www.cleavelandtool.com/catalog/shaping.html
The ones that I have don't have a blank tang for a handle, but instead have
a countersunk hole near each end to mount them to full-length (typically
wooden) holder which is sorta like holding a long, narrow wood plane.
Some Vixen holders are metal/aluminum, and may have a turnbuckle in the
center for slight ajustments of straight to small arc.
Vixen files used to be available in various lengths and shapes, but the most
common shapes were flat and rounded.
Some other specialty files that are extremely handy, are the pull-cut types
used with die filing machines.
I stumbled upon some new 8" Oliver files at a flea market years ago, and
continue to use them almost daily.
They are available (when you can find 'em) in various shapes, and easily
recognized by the straight/parallel sides. On square or rectangular shapes,
one edge may be a safe edge (smooth so it won't cut), which is also very
handy whether using them by hand or machine use.
Files that cut on the pull stroke can remove material very effectively (even
single-handedly held) after a little practice.
They're very fast for openings in panels and various other situations where
filing with a single hand is more convenient.
The pull stroke is efficient at material removal, similar to using a coping
saw cutting on the pull stroke instead of pushing it.
There are some presently-made brands that include parallel-sided files that
can be adapted for die filer machine use by annealing the tip end (or
brazing a scrap to the end) to mount in the filing machine, and breaking off
the handle tang.
I'm still fond of filing after many years. A couple of used files were my
first metalworking cutting tools that I had in my youth.
--
WB
.........
"Doug White" <gwh...@alum.mit.edu> wrote in message
news:Xns9E27977CF439E...@69.16.186.7...
DoN. Nichols
[ ... ]
> Rule #1: Get good ones. Nicholson & Simonds are pretty good, Grobet is
> better. Grobet also makes really nice handles that screw on & don't come
> off (or loose).
>
> I use 3 files more than any others by an order of magnitude:
>
> #1 A fine 4" pointed half round file for knocking burrs off of stuff.
I tend to use the Shaviv replaceable blade deburring tools for
most of that kind of work. Three kinds:
1) The standard hook blade to deburr a single edge.
2) The steeper hook, to deburr both sides of sheet metal.
3) The countersink in a ratchet for deburring single sided
holes.
*My* favorite files are "safe-edge" files. Cutting on the two
flat sides. Smooth on the two edges. (Since I more often use files for
squaring up the corners of a milled opening for mounting a switch or
meter in a rectangular hole. This lets me cut right up to the edge of
the hole without unintentionally widening the hole at the corner. A
safe side triangular file is useful at times too.
[ ... ]
And so far -- nobody has mentioned a "mill bastard", which is
good for smoothing a finish on a lathe. It has grooves at a much
steeper angle, so the effect is closer to draw filing. Of course, make
*sure* to have a handle on it when you use it on a lathe. And be
careful of sleeves in chuck jaws. (I prefer to use collets when filing,
if I have some large enough.)
> It's also good to have a set of Swiss needle files in a fine & medium
> cut. Good sets are spendy, but will long out last the cheap ones. The
> price difference can be close to an order of magnitude. McMaster carries
> $140 sets & $20 sets. I'd look for something in between, or try to catch
> a good sale. Also a medium cut 1/4" round "rat tail" file, and a similar
> sized triangular file.
Yes. And (for some things) a set of diamond grit needle files.
Enjoy,
DoN.
--
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--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
Michael A. Terrell
They were almost worn out, but there are places where nothing else
works. The originals were less than 50 cents each. The replacement was
$8. :(
Stormin Mormon
face, or I'll...."
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Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
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"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
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