Semi-Metal Related... Water Softeners and Pipes...
Joe AutoDrill
softeners... Can it simply be removed?
What damage is done other than the obvious "mess" in the shower and on
fixtures?
The way I understand it, the danger was to old galvanized or steel pipe that
would literally close down. Newer copper and PVC, etc. seems to, at worst,
develop a light film or scale and then stop there...
Anything else I'm missing?
The softener is in-line with ALL the water in the house... If we do keep
it, I plan on removing it from almost everything except where needed. I
don't want to be drinking softened water and I don't need my outdoor hose to
be expensive water either...
Secondly... Is there an in-line filtering system that removes the dissolved
impurities in the water thus removing the need for a softener in the first
place?
My motto is "salt is bad!" so... There.
Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/AutoDrill
V8013-R
Ecnerwal
"Joe AutoDrill" <auto...@yunx.com> wrote:
> If a home has hard water - well water - and a softener... But I HATE
> softeners... Can it simply be removed?
>
> What damage is done other than the obvious "mess" in the shower and on
> fixtures?
>
> The way I understand it, the danger was to old galvanized or steel pipe that
> would literally close down. Newer copper and PVC, etc. seems to, at worst,
> develop a light film or scale and then stop there...
>
> Anything else I'm missing?
Your water heater will plug up. That can get rather expensive. If you
use the hose to wash your car, it will spot. Two different hose outlets
(one soft, one not) often make sense, or a valve to change one hose
outlet from soft to not.
> The softener is in-line with ALL the water in the house... If we do keep
> it, I plan on removing it from almost everything except where needed. I
> don't want to be drinking softened water and I don't need my outdoor hose to
> be expensive water either...
>
> Secondly... Is there an in-line filtering system that removes the dissolved
> impurities in the water thus removing the need for a softener in the first
> place?
Sure, but they cost more and waste a lot of water. RO (reverse osmosis).
Can make sense for drinking, depending on incoming water, but rather
extravagant for whole house water use.
> My motto is "salt is bad!" so... There.
You should certainly pull drinking water off ahead of the softener.
Other than that, it's not much salt, and should not be very expensive
unless you have a crappy inefficient old softener, or amazingly hard
water.
--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
Ecnerwal
"Joe AutoDrill" <auto...@yunx.com> wrote:
> If a home has hard water - well water - and a softener... But I HATE
> softeners... Can it simply be removed?
Most can be taken out of service without even removing -look for a
bypass valve at the softener.
> What damage is done other than the obvious "mess" in the shower and on
> fixtures?
>
> The way I understand it, the danger was to old galvanized or steel pipe that
> would literally close down. Newer copper and PVC, etc. seems to, at worst,
> develop a light film or scale and then stop there...
>
> Anything else I'm missing?
Your water heater will plug up. That can get rather expensive. If you
use the hose to wash your car, it will spot. Two different hose outlets
(one soft, one not) often make sense, or a valve to change one hose
outlet from soft to not. Softened water is not good for watering the
garden.
You'll spend more on soap to get the same amount of cleaning done for
laundry, dishes, etc.
> The softener is in-line with ALL the water in the house... If we do keep
> it, I plan on removing it from almost everything except where needed. I
> don't want to be drinking softened water and I don't need my outdoor hose to
> be expensive water either...
>
> Secondly... Is there an in-line filtering system that removes the dissolved
> impurities in the water thus removing the need for a softener in the first
> place?
Sure, but they cost more and waste a lot of water. RO (reverse osmosis).
Can make sense for drinking, depending on incoming water quality, but
rather extravagant for whole house water use.
> My motto is "salt is bad!" so... There.
You should certainly pull drinking water off ahead of the softener.
Bill
> The softener is in-line with ALL the water in the house... If we do keep
> it, I plan on removing it from almost everything except where needed. I
> don't want to be drinking softened water and I don't need my outdoor hose to
> be expensive water either...
>
> Secondly... Is there an in-line filtering system that removes the dissolved
> impurities in the water thus removing the need for a softener in the first
> place?
We plumbed our home so that soft water was provided only where we
actually wanted soft water. Because it was new construction the
plumbing was trival to put in at the time. Can't answer your questions
about hardwater causeing problems with pipes- but we haven't run into
any problems -- house is nearing 20 years old.
For driniking water - we have located a small reverse osmois system -
where we wanted drinking water. It's principle of operation wastes a
good deal of water - but it does remove almost all the sodium chloride.
We have 250mg/L NaCl as our water comes from the well - the softener
adds yet more.
hope it helps.
Bill
--
Email address is a Spam trap.
Pete C.
Joe AutoDrill wrote:
>
> If a home has hard water - well water - and a softener... But I HATE
> softeners... Can it simply be removed?
Why do you hate them?
>
> What damage is done other than the obvious "mess" in the shower and on
> fixtures?
>
> The way I understand it, the danger was to old galvanized or steel pipe that
> would literally close down. Newer copper and PVC, etc. seems to, at worst,
> develop a light film or scale and then stop there...
Hard water eats copper pipes. Yes they get a light scale, but they
continue to corrode through and develop pinhole leaks. This process may
take 30 years if you have type L copper, less time for the thinner type
M. Once you start getting the pinholes, it's time to replace
*everything* as for every leak you repair, 5 more will sprout within
days. I replumbed an entire house for this problem, and in another 20
years or so I expect it will need to be done again.
>
> Anything else I'm missing?
>
> The softener is in-line with ALL the water in the house... If we do keep
> it, I plan on removing it from almost everything except where needed. I
> don't want to be drinking softened water and I don't need my outdoor hose to
> be expensive water either...
As was noted, if you do anything but water the lawn with unsoftened
water, expect mineral spotting, including where lawn watering oversprays
onto the house, windows, etc.
For drinking water, install one of the $150 or so under counter RO
systems, they work quite well. They do produce reject water, but unlike
backflush water from the water softener, the reject water isn't
concentrated brine so it's safe for a septic system. Used just for
drinking and cooking water, the volume of reject water is not
significant.
>
> Secondly... Is there an in-line filtering system that removes the dissolved
> impurities in the water thus removing the need for a softener in the first
> place?
Yes, the filtering system is known as a "water softener" and removes
dissolved impurities in the water :)
>
> My motto is "salt is bad!" so... There.
So use the slightly more expensive potassium chloride in the softener
instead of sodium chloride. In either case, the RO filter for your
drinking and cooking water will remove pretty much everything from that
water.
Joe AutoDrill
>> softeners... Can it simply be removed?
>
> Why do you hate them?
Water tastes like crap and rinsing off in the shower feels like you have
grease all over you... IMHO of course.
>> Secondly... Is there an in-line filtering system that removes the
>> dissolved
>> impurities in the water thus removing the need for a softener in the
>> first
>> place?
>
> Yes, the filtering system is known as a "water softener" and removes
> dissolved impurities in the water :)
Can you tell me more about this device? :)
>> My motto is "salt is bad!" so... There.
>
> So use the slightly more expensive potassium chloride in the softener
> instead of sodium chloride. In either case, the RO filter for your
> drinking and cooking water will remove pretty much everything from that
> water.
Thank you. Much appreciated.
--
Steve Ackman
> Secondly... Is there an in-line filtering system that removes the dissolved
> impurities in the water thus removing the need for a softener in the first
> place?
>
> My motto is "salt is bad!" so... There.
What everyone else said, plus...
A softener simply exchanges a less soluble salt for
a more soluble salt. Let's say the salt in your well
is calcium carbonate. The softener, containing either
sodium chloride or potassium chloride, exchanges the
ions so you end up with sodium carbonate or potassium
carbonate in your water instead of calcium carbonate.
The sodium/potassium carbonate is much more soluble, so
doesn't build up hard mineral deposits, and when it
even comes out of solution at all, is easily re-
dissolved and washed away.
If you're worried about sodium when you say "salt"
then using potassium chloride in your softener puts
"anti-salt" in your water. (Fast and loose with the
terminology, but that's more or less the effect.)
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_in_biology
The 2004 guidelines of the Institute of Medicine specify an RDA of
4700mg of potassium for adults[citation needed], based on intake levels
that have been found to lower blood pressure, reduce salt sensitivity, and
minimize the risk of kidney stones. However, most Americans consume only
half that amount per day.[2] Similarly, in the European Union,
particularly in Germany and Italy, insufficient potassium intake is
widespread.[3]
Reverse Osmosis is good for removing minerals from
water, and with heavily softened water is often used
after the softener, but demineralized water is quite
flavorless (ever drunk distilled water?). Extensive
taste tests show that the most preferred coffee is
made with water containing around 150 mg of total
dissolved solids (TDS)... so while it might seem
intuitive that "pure" water is best for cooking
purposes, that's certainly not the case with coffee.
--
☯☯
Joe AutoDrill
> water, and with heavily softened water is often used
> after the softener, but demineralized water is quite
> flavorless (ever drunk distilled water?). Extensive
> taste tests show that the most preferred coffee is
> made with water containing around 150 mg of total
> dissolved solids (TDS)... so while it might seem
> intuitive that "pure" water is best for cooking
> purposes, that's certainly not the case with coffee.
Again, excellent info. Thank you.
Now... Guess what I dislike almost as much as salt?
I drink coffee only when I'm VERY tired, and then it's black and strong so
as to wake me up via caffiene and horrible taste. :)
--
Jon Elson
>>> If a home has hard water - well water - and a softener... But I HATE
>>> softeners... Can it simply be removed?
>> Why do you hate them?
>
> Water tastes like crap and rinsing off in the shower feels like you have
> grease all over you... IMHO of course.
you currently putting salt in the softener? It is possible if the
previous occupant didn't put the salt in for years, absorbed stuff is
coming out of the molecular sieve now. Or, you may have stuff in your
water that the softener cannot remove. A softener is just that, it
removes a small class of salt-type ions that make water "hard". it most
certainly doesn't remove all ions, or any biological or organic
contaminants.
As for that "greasy" feeling, you should just get used to it. It is
natural body oils that you never felt before due to the hardness of the
water.
>
>>> Secondly... Is there an in-line filtering system that removes the
>>> dissolved
>>> impurities in the water thus removing the need for a softener in the
>>> first
>>> place?
You really can't do that on a whole-house basis, especially if you have
hard well water. It is just too much water to clean, and too much stuff
in the water.
Jon
Jon Elson
> If you're worried about sodium when you say "salt"
> then using potassium chloride in your softener puts
> "anti-salt" in your water. (Fast and loose with the
> terminology, but that's more or less the effect.)
Right, I use KCl (sold as K-Lite and similar brands) in my softener for
this reason. It IS a lot more expensive than NaCl (regular salt).
Jon
Artemus
"Joe AutoDrill" <auto...@yunx.com> wrote in message
news:IcMon.34082$NH1....@newsfe14.iad...
If you do decide to investigate a reverse osmosis unit be aware that
they don't handle calcium very well and they require a water softener
ahead of the RO unit when the water hardness is above a certain
level.
Art
Larry Jaques
<MyName...@ReplaceWithMyVices.Com.invalid> scrawled the following:
>Your water heater will plug up. That can get rather expensive. If you
I added my filter because the existing water heater had at least 100
lbs of sand in it when I removed it. I've yet to see more than a
grain or two in the clear filter housing in 8 years, though.
>use the hose to wash your car, it will spot. Two different hose outlets
>(one soft, one not) often make sense, or a valve to change one hose
>outlet from soft to not.
>
>> The softener is in-line with ALL the water in the house... If we do keep
>> it, I plan on removing it from almost everything except where needed. I
>> don't want to be drinking softened water and I don't need my outdoor hose to
>> be expensive water either...
>>
>> Secondly... Is there an in-line filtering system that removes the dissolved
>> impurities in the water thus removing the need for a softener in the first
>> place?
That's what I use on well water to the house. Lowes has 'em for
$35ish with filters going for $7-12 a pair, depending upon 2-20u
filtering size. I have an Omni 25. http://fwd4.me/INz
>Sure, but they cost more and waste a lot of water. RO (reverse osmosis).
>Can make sense for drinking, depending on incoming water, but rather
>extravagant for whole house water use.
FIX: Holding tank for RO rinse water, used by sprinkler system.
--
Adults are obsolete children. --Dr. Seuss (Theodore Geisel, 1904-1991)
--
sta...@prolynx.com
> If a home has hard water - well water - and a softener... But I HATE
> softeners... Can it simply be removed?
>
> What damage is done other than the obvious "mess" in the shower and on
> fixtures?
>
> The way I understand it, the danger was to old galvanized or steel pipe that
> would literally close down. Newer copper and PVC, etc. seems to, at worst,
> develop a light film or scale and then stop there...
>
> Anything else I'm missing?
>
> The softener is in-line with ALL the water in the house... If we do keep
> it, I plan on removing it from almost everything except where needed. I
> don't want to be drinking softened water and I don't need my outdoor hose to
> be expensive water either...
>
> Secondly... Is there an in-line filtering system that removes the dissolved
> impurities in the water thus removing the need for a softener in the first
> place?
>
> My motto is "salt is bad!" so... There.
>
> Regards,
> Joe Agro, Jr.
A lot depends on how your water is "hard". The softeners substitute
sodium for the calcium and magnesium ions in most hard water. If
you've got iron or other stuff in there, you'd need some other
treatment as well.
If you remove the softener, your soap consumption will go up, both in
the shower and for laundry, and soap won't rinse off as well as it
otherwise would. Clothing will get itchy. Your sacrificial anode in
the hot water heater will probably disappear faster and you'll get
scale in there. You'll get lime buildups in valves, toilet bowls and
tea kettles, anywhere water sits without moving for long periods.
Shower and tub walls will be harder to clean.
Your desired "filtering" system IS the softener. If you don't like
messing with salt bags, there is/was an outfit that would swap resin
cartridges, regenerate the resin at their plant and do it on a regular
basis. Reverse osmosis will remove dissolved minerals, but doesn't run
at household water pressure. The little lifeboat unit I saw had to
have somebody pumping all the time, throughput was like a gallon a day
and it cost 2 grand. Scaled up, with an electric pump and it'd
probably be more expensive than that. There's supposed to be an
electric softening system out there, haven't researched that.
Unless you've got really funny water, you're getting sodium carbonate
in the water after the ion exchange process occurs, NOT salt. And
unless your water comes from limestone caves directly, it'll be in the
parts per million level. Sodium carbonate is "washing soda", actually
used in laundry detergents, washes out of stuff easily. May not taste
the best.
It's easy enough to tap off for outside faucets and kitchen-use cold
water for ice-maker and drinking water before the softener. Harder,
of course, if the unit sits in a finished basement or utility closet.
The ion exchange resin eventually loses capacity, by that time, the
timer and valves on the unit are probably worn out anyway, and it's
time for a new one. If you're using a lot of salt and it's a older
unit, that's probably what's going on. Have seen new hopper-load
units for just over the century mark at wally world, way cheaper than
when I was a kid. Also a lot more convenient to service.
Stan
Michael A. Terrell
Joe AutoDrill wrote:
>
> > Reverse Osmosis is good for removing minerals from
> > water, and with heavily softened water is often used
> > after the softener, but demineralized water is quite
> > flavorless (ever drunk distilled water?). Extensive
> > taste tests show that the most preferred coffee is
> > made with water containing around 150 mg of total
> > dissolved solids (TDS)... so while it might seem
> > intuitive that "pure" water is best for cooking
> > purposes, that's certainly not the case with coffee.
>
> Again, excellent info. Thank you.
>
> Now... Guess what I dislike almost as much as salt?
>
> I drink coffee only when I'm VERY tired, and then it's black and strong so
> as to wake me up via caffiene and horrible taste. :)
Then use distilled water.
--
Lead free solder is Belgium's version of 'Hold my beer and watch this!'
Richard W.
Our softener uses salt to clean the filter, so there is no salt in the
water. We have iron and manganese plus some other stuff in our water. The
lime still clogs the shower head, but there is no iron. Our well wasn't
drilled deep enough to get below the surface water. Our neighbor drilled his
well about 50 feet from our well. He got water at the same depth we did, but
sealed the casing and went about 80 feet deeper. He got into the pure water
and had a well producing 35 GPM compared to our well which produces about 12
GPM.
We do have lines that are not filter for watering, but you have to be
careful not to spray it on the house or building as it will stain them. The
garden doesn't seem to care one way or the other if the water is filtered or
not. Also if you wash a car you have to towel dry it, even with filtered
water because the filter doesn't remove the lime. Or you get spots and
streaks.
If I had the money I would drill our well deeper to get below the surface
water.
Richard W.
John
wrote:
I can only comment that I have owned two houses in the same
neighborhood. Both using the same water supply. One had galvanized
water piping and the second had plastic. The first (galvanized) house
had so many deposits in the pipes that several faucets hardly flowed
at all. The second house, in which we have lived in for about 20
years, has plastic water piping and no problems with the water so far.
Perhaps a more important question is what does hard water do to your
kidneys? At least I have heard that people who live in hard water
areas have more kidney stones.
John B.
Randy
wrote:
>
>Joe AutoDrill wrote:
>>
>> If a home has hard water - well water - and a softener... But I HATE
>> softeners... Can it simply be removed?
>
>Why do you hate them?
>
>>
>> What damage is done other than the obvious "mess" in the shower and on
>> fixtures?
>>
>> The way I understand it, the danger was to old galvanized or steel pipe that
>> would literally close down. Newer copper and PVC, etc. seems to, at worst,
>> develop a light film or scale and then stop there...
>
>Hard water eats copper pipes. Yes they get a light scale, but they
>continue to corrode through and develop pinhole leaks. This process may
>take 30 years if you have type L copper, less time for the thinner type
>M. Once you start getting the pinholes, it's time to replace
>*everything* as for every leak you repair, 5 more will sprout within
>days. I replumbed an entire house for this problem, and in another 20
>years or so I expect it will need to be done again.
>
>>
SOFT water eats pipes, not hard. Water wants to have dissolved
"stuff" in it, if you remove all the "stuff" it will strip ions from
whatever source it can. IE pull copper off the pipes. I worked at
a plant that had soft water cooling loops, every piece of copper
piping on new equipment would begin to leak after just over a year in
use, we would replace it all with 304 stainless and Swagelok fittings.
You should have absolutely no salt taste in your soft water. If you
do, your water softener is not working correctly.
When I put a softener in my parents house I ran new lines to the
kitchen and bathroom faucets with hard water. Also re-ran lines to
the outside faucets so the lawn could be watered with hard water.
Have the "Culligan man" or some other water guy come out to your
house for a free water check or take a sample to a water testing lab
and see exactly what is in your water before you make any decision.
Option #2......Use the water softener on the hot water only,
(installed before the heater), you will still see some savings on
laundry and dishwasher soap.
Thank You,
Randy
Remove 333 from email address to reply.
Pete C.
No, hard water most certainly does eat up copper pipes. I've replaced
plenty of it on a well with hard water.
Pete C.
Dunno, I lived with a hard water well some 34 years with no kidney
stones.
Terry
>
>SOFT water eats pipes, not hard. Water wants to have dissolved
>"stuff" in it, if you remove all the "stuff" it will strip ions from
>whatever source it can. IE pull copper off the pipes. I worked at
>a plant that had soft water cooling loops, every piece of copper
>piping on new equipment would begin to leak after just over a year in
>use, we would replace it all with 304 stainless and Swagelok fittings.
Water will indeed dissolve many things; it's as close as we have to
the universal solvent. But the concentration of ions in hard water
and in soft water is not all that different. Soft water ~ 0.01%
dissolved [magnesium, calcium, iron] ions; hard water ~ 0.03% though
it can be higher. Soft water is not a significantly better solvent
for ions than is hard water.
Of course, water that has been softened has fewer Mg/Ca/Fe ions but
more Na or K ions depending on what is being used in the softener.
>You should have absolutely no salt taste in your soft water. If you
>do, your water softener is not working correctly.
Mmmm.... that depends on the water hardness. Each Ca/Mg/Fe ion
absorbed by the zeolite in the softener releases two Na or K ions. If
one has *very* hard water, say above the 0.05% concentration, I
suspect that the softened water would have some taste. Most likely
not exactly salt, more like baking soda. The counterions in hard
water are usually hydrogen carbonate ions, giving NaHCO3....
I'm not as familiar with water treatment technology as I'd like to be,
so maybe the Culligan folks have additional treatments to remove some
of the sodium that would be generated by softening very hard water, I
dunno.
--
Best -- Terry