Would you buy a new Toyota?
Chief Egalitarian
says people are trading them in faster than they can handle even 2010's.
Too_Many_Tools
> Serious question. I could probably get a sweet deal. My local Honda dealer
> says people are trading them in faster than they can handle even 2010's.
Only when the old one goes over the cliff..with as many Republicans as
I can stuff in it.
Any volunteers?
Laugh...laugh...laugh...
TMT
Joe Pfeiffer
No, but it has nothing to do with the unintended-acceleration issue
(which is, at best, a very rare occurrence). My 1990 Toyota pickup
turns out to be almost impossible to work on in comparison to any of my
other cars, and I've got no interest in having another one.
--
As we enjoy great advantages from the inventions of others, we should
be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours;
and this we should do freely and generously. (Benjamin Franklin)
robert bowman
> Serious question. I could probably get a sweet deal. My local Honda dealer
> says people are trading them in faster than they can handle even 2010's.
Sure. My Yaris stops and goes on demand, no reason I wouldn't buy another
one except that it may well outlast me.
Chief Egalitarian
"Too_Many_Tools" <too_man...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:99ab2a4d-5c4e-4ef8...@q23g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
You must have missed the word "seriously" as you were watching your fat old
ladies through the peephole again.
Chief Egalitarian
"Joe Pfeiffer" <pfei...@cs.nmsu.edu> wrote in message
news:1bpr2x3...@snowball.wb.pfeifferfamily.net...
> "Chief Egalitarian" <Egal@legal_egal.law> writes:
>
>> Serious question. I could probably get a sweet deal. My local Honda
>> dealer says people are trading them in faster than they can handle
>> even 2010's.
>
> No, but it has nothing to do with the unintended-acceleration issue
> (which is, at best, a very rare occurrence). My 1990 Toyota pickup
> turns out to be almost impossible to work on in comparison to any of my
> other cars, and I've got no interest in having another one.
I too believe the acceleration issue is rare and the cause will be
discovered and fixed, if it exists at all. What makes your Toyota hard to
work on? Tight access?
Too_Many_Tools
> "Joe Pfeiffer" <pfeif...@cs.nmsu.edu> wrote in message
All the Republicans stuffed inside the pickup for insulation.
Laugh...laugh...laugh..
TMT
Too_Many_Tools
Or it could be too much junk in the trunk...the same problem that
Sarah Palin has.
Laugh...laugh..laugh...
TMT
Roger Shoaf
"Chief Egalitarian" <Egal@legal_egal.law> wrote in message
news:4ba6dcaf$1...@news.x-privat.org...
> Serious question. I could probably get a sweet deal. My local Honda dealer
> says people are trading them in faster than they can handle even 2010's.
>
When I go to buy a car, I don't buy new cars anyway and the used ones I
consider are ones that the market is soft on so I get a big bang for the
buck.
Toyota tend in my opinion to be over priced and in spite of perceived
reliability claims, it seems to me that they are very expensive to repair
and maintain.
My wife had a tercel and when you went to tune the sucker up instead of
buying a cap and rotor you had to buy a cap from Toyota that had wires
molded into the cap.
When a tail light socket corroded, the only repair part available was a
whole new wiring harness, not just the dodgy socket.
Timing belt replacement every 70,000 miles? good for the repair shops but a
poor design in my opinion.
These are just some of the reasons I tend to think of Toyota when I am
looking for a set of wheels
--
Roger Shoaf
About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.
Bill Noble
timing belt is a good idea - otherwise you will be replacing the head at
about 80K miles when all the valves are destroyed.
Doug Miller
>Serious question. I could probably get a sweet deal. My local Honda dealer
>says people are trading them in faster than they can handle even 2010's.
>
sound move. Buy a 3- or 4-year-old used car, and let someone else pay for the
depreciation.
Joe Pfeiffer
It's just a pain in the butt all around, due to a complete lack of any
attention given to maintainability. When trying to get at the radio,
there's one -- ONE! -- screw blocked by the glove box, so out it comes.
As with many EFI cars, the intake has both a manifold and a plenum. The
PCV valve is positioned so that the plenum has to be removed to replace
it. There are over a dozen hoses, including little things like the EGR
pipe, requiring removal and reinstallation.
Comparing it with my other vehicles, ranging from a 1978 Newport, through
a 2000 Dodge Intrepid (a dream to work on, but absolutely requires the
FSM to see how), to a 2007 Dodge Dakota, just makes one weep.
rangerssuck
I had an '87 Camry. Replaced the starter motor and the connector
crumbled in my hand. Under the dash, I found other failing connectors.
The wiring harness to the driver's side door developed three broken
wires. The automatic extending radio antenna failed and was impossible
to replace without dismantling the fuel filler assembly. The final
straw was the fuel pump failing, and having no easy access to it
without dropping the tank - which involved taking a LOT of things
apart. They could have made this replaceable under the rear seat -
that's where the electrical connectors (also in bad shape) were.
It's a shame, since the engine was dead reliable, and I really liked
that car. But it was getting to be an endless series of repair
headaches.
Roger Shoaf
the life of the engine or alternatively that they can be replaced without a
$700 repair bill?
--
Roger Shoaf
If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent.
"Bill Noble" <nob...@nowhere.invalid> wrote in message
news:ho7204$6i1$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
sta...@prolynx.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
Hey, you're never supposed to have owned the car long enough that the
cogged rubber band needs replacing, it's supposed to have been crushed
and made into new ones by then. Think lease, lease, lease....
The major dealers around here prior to the big dive all depended on
leasing, didn't really want to sell new stuff. Had to go to the next
state over to dicker.
As far as the design is concerned, the Germans had that whipped with
Mercedes' double-roller chain for timing belts, a lot of older US
engines either used a metallic silent chain or actual gear drive to
the cams. All a lot more expensive than rubber bands. And they
didn't tend to break, would wear a bit after 100K or so and get a
little out of time, but usually it was fairly easy to replace the
chains. Even if they didn't, the engine would still run, just not as
efficiently.
Stan
Joe Pfeiffer
> On Mar 22, 11:10 am, "Roger Shoaf" <sh...@nospamsyix.com> wrote:
>> Would it not be better to design engine components so they either lasted for
>> the life of the engine or alternatively that they can be replaced without a
>> $700 repair bill?
>>
>> > I can agree on most things you listed, but the 70K mile replacement for
>> > timing belt is a good idea - otherwise you will be replacing the head at
>> > about 80K miles when all the valves are destroyed.
>>
>> > > Timing belt replacement every 70,000 miles? good for the repair shops
>> but
>> > > a
>> > > poor design in my opinion.
>>
>> > > These are just some of the reasons I tend to think of Toyota when I am
>> > > looking for a set of wheels
>
> Hey, you're never supposed to have owned the car long enough that the
> cogged rubber band needs replacing, it's supposed to have been crushed
> and made into new ones by then. Think lease, lease, lease....
>
> The major dealers around here prior to the big dive all depended on
> leasing, didn't really want to sell new stuff. Had to go to the next
> state over to dicker.
>
> As far as the design is concerned, the Germans had that whipped with
> Mercedes' double-roller chain for timing belts, a lot of older US
> engines either used a metallic silent chain or actual gear drive to
> the cams. All a lot more expensive than rubber bands. And they
> didn't tend to break, would wear a bit after 100K or so and get a
> little out of time, but usually it was fairly easy to replace the
> chains. Even if they didn't, the engine would still run, just not as
> efficiently.
I'm not aware of any mass-produced cars that used a gear drive for the
cam (though it seems to me like it would have made more sense than a
chain all along). I do know of at least one timing chain failure that
ruined an engine: my father's 1966 Chrysler 300 had the nylon (used to
make the chain silent) come off the the sprockets; the engine kept
running just fine, but the nylon clogged the oil pump inlet. Driving on
the freeway with no oil pressure means a destroyed engine before you can
get to the next off-ramp....
Richard W.
"Roger Shoaf" <sh...@nospamsyix.com> wrote in message
news:12692778...@news01.syix.com...
> Would it not be better to design engine components so they either lasted
> for
> the life of the engine or alternatively that they can be replaced without
> a
> $700 repair bill?
>
>
This is why I like the old over head valve engines. A new chain and
sprockets were about $20. last time I changed one. Also the OHV engine are
not as tall, because the cam is in the block and not the head. Now if Buicks
would only turn the engine so it's easy to work on.
Richard W.
Richard W.
"rangerssuck" <range...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:5cf1694d-f809-4d98...@m37g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...
I sure don't like the way the bulbs are held in the tail lights. One short
and it melts the plastic and then nothing works. To save the cost of
replacing everything I had to solder the ground on the bulbs to get things
to work.
Richard W.
Richard W.
"Doug Miller" <spam...@milmac.com> wrote in message
news:ho7l7h$7jg$2...@news.eternal-september.org...
My thoughts exactly. I was always buying the cars that no one wanted. I
drove Volare's for years. Good car that had no resale value, because no one
wanted them. The first one I bought had 61,000 miles on it and I paid
$1400.00 for it. I have had 5 over the years. Since they are hard to find
and don't get good fuel mileage I bought an Escort with 81,000 miles for
$600 and now it has 195,000 miles on it and it's still my daily driver.
Since it's a wagon it saves me money getting a new dish washer. It was a 45
mile drive to Home Depot and my pickup get 13 MPG and the Escort gets 27 MPG
driving a mix of country and city driving.
I am one of those people who can't buy a new car on payments because it's
wore out before it's paid for. 63 miles a day to work and back.
Richard W.
cavelamb
Not even remotely possible any more.
The old engines, while mechanically reliable, would never pass emmissions
testing, nor get the kind of gas mileage we need today.
Interesting article about the Toyota electronics problems:
Act of God?
or Act of Code?
http://www.ien.com/ienblog.aspx?id=156482&ienUId=709981039&newslname=BLOG
--
Richard Lamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/
spaco
Pete Stanaitis
--------------
Ed Huntress
"cavelamb" <cave...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:DPCdnSEv4bBcWjrW...@earthlink.com...
> Richard W. wrote:
>> "Roger Shoaf" <sh...@nospamsyix.com> wrote in message
>> news:12692778...@news01.syix.com...
>>> Would it not be better to design engine components so they either lasted
>>> for
>>> the life of the engine or alternatively that they can be replaced
>>> without a
>>> $700 repair bill?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> This is why I like the old over head valve engines. A new chain and
>> sprockets were about $20. last time I changed one. Also the OHV engine
>> are not as tall, because the cam is in the block and not the head. Now if
>> Buicks would only turn the engine so it's easy to work on.
>>
>> Richard W.
>
> Not even remotely possible any more.
> The old engines, while mechanically reliable, would never pass emmissions
> testing, nor get the kind of gas mileage we need today.
You may be thinking of flatheads. There are several overhead valve (pushrod)
engines on the market today. Chrysler has the Hemi and Viper, and GM makes
most of the rest.
--
Ed Huntress
Gunner Asch
wrote:
Very very true and good advice!
Gunner
"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.
This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost
rayk...@rnsmte.nospam.com
"Richard W." <raw...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:LIGdnb44dNt8XDrW...@molalla.net...
it.....cam is chain drive....motor puts out the same hp as the old chev
327....25 mpg in a 4x4 truck
One of my neighbours has a 2010 extended cab 4x4 with the same motor and
gets 30 mpg
Joe Pfeiffer
OHV yes; timing chains instead of belts yes; 1960s designs no, and I'm
not sure how well they could be adapted. The heads would need a
completely clean sheet (a wedge combustion chamber wouldn't stand a
chance); of course, the weight of a cast iron block would be a real
problem (are there even trucks other than diesels any more with iron
blocks?). There's also a host of littler things like the distance to
the top ring. Manifolds and engine management systems, of course, but
those are sort of 'external' to the engine, so needing to redo those
shouldn't count against the idea.
Jon Elson
> Would it not be better to design engine components so they either lasted for
> the life of the engine or alternatively that they can be replaced without a
> $700 repair bill?
>
>
cars my wife has driven had catastrophic auto. trans breakdown. One we
were relly lucky to find a guy who could rebuild it for $1300 bucks, the
next one we goofed and took it to the dealer -- $3100 ! YIKES!
Now, the next car she is driving is showing signs of transmission
trouble, leaks and slipping when cold. We're feeding it a steady diet
of transmission fluid, and so far it is still running.
This could drive me back to the stick shift (which my family just got me
to give up after 30 years).
Jon
Wes
>No, but it has nothing to do with the unintended-acceleration issue
>(which is, at best, a very rare occurrence). My 1990 Toyota pickup
>turns out to be almost impossible to work on in comparison to any of my
>other cars, and I've got no interest in having another one.
I know the older toyota's were bullet proof. But as to the question on new, heck no,
doesn't matter what brand, I drive 26,000 miles a year. Lease returns are what are most
economic for me. Large probablitiy it was maintained and it was returned with a lot of
life on it.
Now a lease return Toyota, if my Saturn dies soon (only 198000 miles), might be okay if
the price is right.
All the fwd cars are difficult to work on if you grew up on full sized cars back about 40
years ago.
Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller
Wes
>Interesting article about the Toyota electronics problems:
>
> Act of God?
>or Act of Code?
>
>http://www.ien.com/ienblog.aspx?id=156482&ienUId=709981039&newslname=BLOG
If they really want to know if it is an act of code, publish the code and document the
interfaces and ask the geeks to figure things out.
Joe Pfeiffer
>
> All the fwd cars are difficult to work on if you grew up on full sized
> cars back about 40 years ago.
All I can do is repeat my experience: my Intrepid, my former Lebaron
Turbo Coupe, and my former Neon are no harder to work on than my '66
Charger and my '78 Newport. Granted, I never had to replace the clutch
on the Neon or Lebaron; on those jobs, no doubt I'd agree with you.
Michael A. Terrell
sta...@prolynx.com wrote:
>
> As far as the design is concerned, the Germans had that whipped with
> Mercedes' double-roller chain for timing belts, a lot of older US
> engines either used a metallic silent chain or actual gear drive to
> the cams.
My '66 GTO had a double roller chain instead of a single, and the
gears were all metal.
--
Lead free solder is Belgium's version of 'Hold my beer and watch this!'
cavelamb
> cavelamb <cave...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> Interesting article about the Toyota electronics problems:
>>
>> Act of God?
>> or Act of Code?
>>
>> http://www.ien.com/ienblog.aspx?id=156482&ienUId=709981039&newslname=BLOG
>
> If they really want to know if it is an act of code, publish the code and document the
> interfaces and ask the geeks to figure things out.
>
> Wes
> --
We tend to treat code as something written (which it is)
but it acts like something mechanical (which it is not).
But the competition between manufacturers is going to keep it as trade secrets.
Joe Pfeiffer
And yet, when it comes down to it, the electronics and the code are the
*only* parts in the car that we can't take apart and look at.
cavelamb
> cavelamb <cave...@earthlink.net> writes:
>
>> Wes wrote:
>>> cavelamb <cave...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Interesting article about the Toyota electronics problems:
>>>>
>>>> Act of God?
>>>> or Act of Code?
>>>>
>>>> http://www.ien.com/ienblog.aspx?id=156482&ienUId=709981039&newslname=BLOG
>>> If they really want to know if it is an act of code, publish the code and document the
>>> interfaces and ask the geeks to figure things out.
>>>
>>> Wes
>>> --
>>
>> We tend to treat code as something written (which it is)
>> but it acts like something mechanical (which it is not).
>>
>> But the competition between manufacturers is going to keep it as trade
>> secrets.
>
> And yet, when it comes down to it, the electronics and the code are the
> *only* parts in the car that we can't take apart and look at.
Well, actually, you can.
But it's a lot more involved than examining mechanical parts.
And, perhaps an important question...
How can you tell when software is getting worn out?
Joe Pfeiffer
> Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
>>
>> And yet, when it comes down to it, the electronics and the code are the
>> *only* parts in the car that we can't take apart and look at.
>
> Well, actually, you can.
> But it's a lot more involved than examining mechanical parts.
Microphotography to read a ROM is a little involved, yes....
> And, perhaps an important question...
>
> How can you tell when software is getting worn out?
Jokes about bit rot aside, it doesn't.
F. George McDuffee
<pfei...@cs.nmsu.edu> wrote:
<snip>
>> But the competition between manufacturers is going to keep it as trade
>> secrets.
>
>And yet, when it comes down to it, the electronics and the code are the
>*only* parts in the car that we can't take apart and look at.
There appears to be no reason [other than inertia] that NHTSA or
another agency cannot require a source code listing for computer
control programs for all vehicles sold in the United States as a
condition of approval for import.
This should be augmented by a copy of the "official" machine code
so that the prom contents can be periodically checked against the
submitted code to detect any field fixes, etc. Additionally, the
EDR [event data recorder] contents and format should be
standardized and the codes to download provided to agency
accident investigators and law enforcement.
In order to prevent proprietary communications protocols and
connections, the ability to download using a standard USP
connection/cable and laptop should be required.
I sent a letter to my Congressmen on this topic on 04 March. A
copy is attached. Feel free to use all, some or none of it, if
you wish to write Congress.
FYI
To locate your representative and to use their web mail click on
http://www.house.gov/
To locate your senators and to use their web mail click on
http://senate.gov/
To send an email [2.5k characters including spaces max] to the
President click on
http://www.whitehouse.gov/contact/
Be sure to bookmark your representative's, senators' and WH
web-mail sites to allow easy nagging in the future.
---- start email to congress
SUNLIGHT IS THE BEST DISINFECTANT.
Justice [SCOTUS] Louis D. Brandeis
(November 13, 1856 - October 5, 1941)
It is clear that Toyota continues to stonewall about providing
any meaningful information about the unintended acceleration and
other problems such as non-functioning brakes.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35713831/ns/business-autos/
While Congress must go through the motions of politely requesting
Toyota for access to the EDR [Event Data Recorder] information,
it is imperative that the resources of the Federal government be
used to recover not only the existing accident information, but
also the actual total automotive control codes. I suggest that
the NSA has a large amount of experience in such recoveries, and
that the several domestic aerospace companies, which pioneered
"fly by wire," as well as the FAA, have the expertise to both
"reverse engineer" the Toyota automotive computer control code
and run simulations to determine if unintended control sequences
or paths exist, for example "wide open throttle" acceleration
combined with brake inactivation as part of the anti-skid control
loop.
Given the article information that 1 (one) laptop computer is
located in the United States with the necessary software to
download and decode/display the EDR data, I suggest the immediate
enactment of legislation mandating that *ALL* EDR information
must be downloadable in common ASCII format and that the software
to do so must be made available to law enforcement, accident
investigators, etc. using standard laptop computers running the
later versions of Windows.
It is further suggested that legislation be enacted requiring all
automotive manufacturers selling vehicles for use on the public
roads to provide the NHTSA with not only their compiled code as
burned into the PROMs, [Programmable Read-Only Memory] but also
the annotated/formatted source code used to generate the compiled
code, copies of the compilers/linkers/loaders used, and to
provide NHTSA with not only all running changes but the reasons
for the changes. This is intended to not only allow NHTSA
tracking of changes in the computer control code, but also the
review of the structure and origin of the source code.
It is a well-known axiom in computer science that poorly
structured and "kludged" spaghetti code is never a good idea, and
is the source of much trouble. Given the amount of time Toyota's
problems with their vehicle control systems have persisted, and
the increasing volume of problems, this has all the
characteristics of a program designed by a senior manager above
reproach, that was not designed correctly in the first place, and
has had patch after patch after patch applied in the always
futile attempt to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Another
frequent source of this type of problem is the use of marginally
qualified outside programming contractors, with excellent
connections to the corporate management, possibly by blood or
marriage and/or attempts by management to contain/reduce costs by
having critical programming done in low wage countries.
It will also be necessary for NHTSA to perform periodic field
inspections to verify that computer control program changes have
not occurred. This is trivial with the correct equipment. A
PROM reader is required. The PROMs are removed from the sample
vehicle[s], and the code downloaded using a laptop. It is
trivial to compare the downloaded PROM code with what Toyota
provided NHTSA as the "current" control codes, and will require
only a few minutes per PROM.
In any event the problem is not going away by itself, and will
only get worse as "drive by wire" computer controls become more
common. We no longer allow "secret" ingredients in the food and
medicine sold to the American consumer, so why are "secret"
control codes in the vehicles sold to the American consumer still
allowed?
----- end email to congress
Unka George (George McDuffee)
..............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).
JR North
front, and the Lambo in back?
JR
Dweller in the cellar
On Mon, 22 Mar 2010 21:02:02 -0500, cavelamb <cave...@earthlink.net>
wrote:
--------------------------------------------------------------
Home Page: http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth
If you're not the lead dog, the view never changes
Doubt yourself, and the real world will eat you alive
The world doesn't revolve around you, it revolves around me
No skeletons in the closet; just decomposing corpses
--------------------------------------------------------------
Dependence is Vulnerability:
--------------------------------------------------------------
"Open the Pod Bay Doors please, Hal"
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.."
Don Foreman
<Egal@legal_egal.law> wrote:
>Serious question. I could probably get a sweet deal. My local Honda dealer
>says people are trading them in faster than they can handle even 2010's.
We have an '09 Corolla and a '10 Camry and we love them. Mary drives
the Corolla, a stick. The Corolla replaced my '95 Ford Contour, the
Camry later replaced her '95 Contour ... but she decided she really
likes driving the Corolla so that became "her" car. Works fer me, I
really like the Camry with 6-speed tranny and V-6 3.5 liter 268 HP
quietly-competent giddyup. It's the nicest car I've ever owned.
In the very unlikely event that the throttle sticks, step on clutch!
On the Camry, just kick it into neutral. I've tried doing that at
various speeds. No problem at all, a flick of the wrist.
Based on the numbers I've seen, I think the likelihood of our having a
stuck throttle problem with our Toyotas is negligable, and the gravity
of said highly improbable event would be trivial.
I don't care what the market value has become on our Toyotas because
we tend to keep our cars until they start falling apart. That said,
maybe I should ping my insurance guy for a better deal since
replacement cost has dropped, right? <G> Also the DMV for tabs next
year since price of our tabs is based on vehicle value. Good luck
with that, right?
Don Foreman
<nob...@nowhere.invalid> wrote:
>I can agree on most things you listed, but the 70K mile replacement for
>timing belt is a good idea - otherwise you will be replacing the head at
>about 80K miles when all the valves are destroyed.
>
>> Timing belt replacement every 70,000 miles? good for the repair shops but
>> a
>> poor design in my opinion.
>>
I think I recall being told that the V-6 engine in my 2010 Camry uses
a timing chain.
Don Foreman
<sh...@nospamsyix.com> wrote:
>Would it not be better to design engine components so they either lasted for
>the life of the engine or alternatively that they can be replaced without a
>$700 repair bill?
That is exactly why we retired the '95 Fords and bought new Toyotas.
Although neither Ford had 75K miles, both were starting to have repair
bills well in excess of $700. I wrenched and did rust work on our
fleet for years, put 5 kids thru university on money I didn't send to
either Detroit or Japan, but I don't want to wrench on cars anymore.
I'm retired, dammit!
cavelamb
> cavelamb <cave...@earthlink.net> writes:
>
>> Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
>>> And yet, when it comes down to it, the electronics and the code are the
>>> *only* parts in the car that we can't take apart and look at.
>> Well, actually, you can.
>> But it's a lot more involved than examining mechanical parts.
>
> Microphotography to read a ROM is a little involved, yes....
>
>> And, perhaps an important question...
>>
>> How can you tell when software is getting worn out?
>
> Jokes about bit rot aside, it doesn't.
Are you sure?
What does it take to cause a bit to flip?
Say, in ten years?
cavelamb
> <snip>
> There appears to be no reason [other than inertia] that NHTSA or
> another agency cannot require a source code listing for computer
> control programs for all vehicles sold in the United States as a
> condition of approval for import.
>
I once had an '88 Corvette, George.
One of the hottest after market items was an EPROM that could
boost performance. Heck, there were dozens of them.
I don't think there was much code there.
Just conditions...
I don't thing, in the long run, there was any noticeable difference.
It adapted to the way you drive.
Maybe a different EPROM for the race track would have made a difference.
But for around town?
Nada Much.
Still, if the software is part of the machine, and the machine can't
run without it?
I think that's a different call...
cavelamb
My 2000 Blazer has been acting up - doing exactly the same thing that
Toyota is getting Crucified for.
2000 RPM (in 4th gear) is 60 mph!
And it does that some times now.
I'm about ready to put it in the shop and see if this can be fixed.
Heck! It's only got 140,000 miles on it.
It has been utterly reliable until now.
I've not even done any maintenance on it (beyond oil changes :) )
(I'm religious about that!)
Spark plugs were due to be changed 60,000 miles back!
I think the O2 sensor is out of date too.
I wonder about the maintenance of the Toyotas that are causing problems!
Do sensors last forever?
Really??
Richard W.
"Jon Elson" <jme...@wustl.edu> wrote in message
news:nqOdnQfespd5aDrW...@giganews.com...
> Roger Shoaf wrote:
>> Would it not be better to design engine components so they either lasted
>> for
>> the life of the engine or alternatively that they can be replaced without
>> a
>> $700 repair bill?
>>
>>
> Yup, that'd be better. But, what about TRANSMISSIONS? The last two cars
> my wife has driven had catastrophic auto. trans breakdown. One we were
> relly lucky to find a guy who could rebuild it for $1300 bucks, the next
> one we goofed and took it to the dealer -- $3100 ! YIKES!
>
> Now, the next car she is driving is showing signs of transmission trouble,
> leaks and slipping when cold. We're feeding it a steady diet of
> transmission fluid, and so far it is still running.
>
Transmission and fluid changes help transmissions last a long time. My 95
Escort has 195,000 miles on the automatic transmission. Every time it seems
to not shift I change the fluid and it works fine again.
One thing that kills automatic transmissions is spinning the wheels in the
snow and with the car not moving. The trans oil coolers on most cars don't
have air forced through them, so the transmission over heats and a few
months later the trans starts to go bad.
Richard W.
Joseph Gwinn
cavelamb <cave...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> F. George McDuffee wrote:
> > <snip>
> > There appears to be no reason [other than inertia] that NHTSA or
> > another agency cannot require a source code listing for computer
> > control programs for all vehicles sold in the United States as a
> > condition of approval for import.
> >
>
> I once had an '88 Corvette, George.
>
> One of the hottest after market items was an EPROM that could
> boost performance. Heck, there were dozens of them.
> I don't think there was much code there.
> Just conditions...
I had a coworker who in the 1980s installed a reground camshaft in his Saab, the
intent being to improve mileage by defeating some of the anti-smog detuning of
the engine. He claimed a great improvement in gasoline costs. His commute was
one hour each way, so it would be noticeable.
> I don't thing, in the long run, there was any noticeable difference.
> It adapted to the way you drive.
> Maybe a different EPROM for the race track would have made a difference.
> But for around town?
> Nada Much.
Now days, I hear of people reprogramming the engine control computer.
Joe Gwinn
steamer
appear; that's what I'll buy, regardless of brand.
--
"Steamboat Ed" Haas : Blue Cross socks us
Hacking the Trailing Edge! : $23,000/yr!! ...
www.nmpproducts.com
---Decks a-wash in a sea of words---
cl...@snyder.on.ca
wrote:
>Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
Software doesn't wear out. works or it doesn't. Problem is, it can
work properly in 99.9% of scenarios, but that last .9% can be
troublesome when that particular condition exists.
If it works today - it works whenever.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
wrote:
In firmware, it is possible. But the question was about software. And
even in firmware (like a ROM) it is extremely unlikely in 10 years -
or even 20. In a "burned rom" it would require voltage being applied
where voltage should not be to burn a 1 to a 0 or short a 0 to a 1
cl...@snyder.on.ca
wrote:
The "chip" for the Corvette has all the tables and code to run the
ECU, and if no chip is installed the corvette is a lawn ornament.
Many different parameters could be reprogrammed by using a different
code in the chip - from fuel mapping to timing curve to maximum RPM
limit, etc.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Which IS replacing the Eprom on pre-OBD2 stuff - and even some OBD2
that does not use FLASH rom.
Joe Pfeiffer
In fairness, in this context when we say 'software' we're really talking
about firmware, and it's more likely to be flash than burned-in or
mask-programmed. But, a quick look over at Freescale shows data
retention guarantees of well over 10 years (they actually guarantee over
100 years, with derating for temperature).
Also, of course, if the code were available to us, we'd be able to
replace a failed EEPROM long after the manufacturer went under.
cavelamb
Thank you, Joe.
But actually, nobody "guarantees" retention.
What they guarantee is a statistical failure rate.
An error every so-many operations...
cl...@snyder.on.ca
> --Don't care about brand; still waiting for first hybrid truck to
>appear; that's what I'll buy, regardless of brand.
Hybrid Silverado has been available for at least 2 years. At least
they CALL it a hybrid.
Joe Pfeiffer
I was actually pretty surprised to find that Freescale does in fact
quote a minimum data retention time, with a derating formula. No
statistical failure rate to be found in their data sheets.
cavelamb
I see. Yes, there would be a minimum retention time.
I was thinking MTBF.
Wes
>What does it take to cause a bit to flip?
>Say, in ten years?
Stray neutrino's?
Wes
Wes
>We tend to treat code as something written (which it is)
>but it acts like something mechanical (which it is not).
>
>But the competition between manufacturers is going to keep it as trade secrets.
Well, mp3 players have Rockbox, Canon cameras have CHDK , then there are routers now
running openwrt.
I've played with the first and third below.
www.Rockbox.org
http://chdk.wikia.com/wiki/CHDK
http://openwrt.org/
Someone talented and interested enough is going to reverse engineer PCM on a car someday.
Heck, I think the hotrod community has done it to some degree.
Now I wonder who is willing to try open source PCM code? Gives a whole new meaning to
crash. ;)
Wes
Concerend Citizen
> Serious question. I could probably get a sweet deal. My local Honda dealer
> says people are trading them in faster than they can handle even 2010's.
No. Too expensive.
I'd buy a used one.
Chief Egalitarian
"Wes" <clu...@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:hobf4t$f4d$2...@news.eternal-september.org...
She'll flip if you complement her a bit.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Virtually every GM ECM code has been cracked and hacked. Many of the
others too.
Ted Frater
To answer the headline question,
no,
why,?
you cannot have the smallest chance of a glitch that makes the car go
when you want it to stop.
Its called primary structure.
Just because it can be done by computer doesnt mean it should be, when
simpler and 100% fail safe solutions are and have been available.
Id go so far to say I would not have one even if it was given to me for
free.
In the aviation world fly by wire is at the minimum duplicated.
On the Peugeot 305 1984, which I did 250,000 miles, over 25 yrs before
retiring it due to body rot, the throttle pedal had its own return
spring, the bosch injection pump als has its own return spring, the 2
connected together with a simple stainless bowden cable inside a teflon
sleeved cover.
Never ever wore out , and you could always see it .
No ,toyota has to pay the price of trying to be too clever and letting
the eye off the ball.
Ted.
dca...@krl.org
> To answer the headline question,
> no,
> why,?
> you cannot have the smallest chance of a glitch that makes the car go
> when you want it to stop.
> Its called primary structure.
> Just because it can be done by computer doesnt mean it should be, when
> simpler and 100% fail safe solutions are and have been available.
> Id go so far to say I would not have one even if it was given to me for
> free.
> Ted.
I will take all the free ones in a heart beat.
The fuel injection needs to be done with a microprocessor, the simpler
solutions are not good enough.
I would prefer getting free Toyota's with manual transmissions, but
how hard would it be to add a kill switch for ignition system if one
was really worried about the fuel injection system failing?
Dan
Don Foreman
Both of my Toyotas came with ignition switches.
Pinstripe Sniper
>To answer the headline question,
> no,
>why,?
>you cannot have the smallest chance of a glitch that makes the car go
>when you want it to stop.
So you're expecting 100%/perfection in design - manufacturing -
maintenance for millions of consumer grade systems?
Hmmmmm...
PsS
--------------------------------------------------------------------
A fictional account of how to drastically reform the financial world...
More at http://PinstripeSniper.blogspot.com and if that gets banned, check
www.PinstripeSniper.com
dca...@krl.org
>
> Both of my Toyotas came with ignition switches.
Ah. I expect that they all do, but if you shut off the ignition do
they also lock the steering wheel. For some reason I have the
impression that they locked the steering.
Dan
Joe Pfeiffer
Apparently the latest ones have a spiffy green button, which you have to
hold for several seconds to convince the drivetrain to shut down.
Joe Pfeiffer
But, if you can believe Toyota's explanation, the accelerator problems
are mechanical -- getting stuck under floor mats, and a bearing getting
stuck. I'm not sure that I believe Toyota, but I do have memories of
riding in an old Chevy on the freeway while the driver was reaching down
to pull the gas pedal off the floor. So your old Peugeot may not have
had a mechanical throttle failure, but it did happen.
> No ,toyota has to pay the price of trying to be too clever and
> letting the eye off the ball.
> Ted.
>
>
--
Wes
>>Now I wonder who is willing to try open source PCM code? Gives a whole new meaning to
>>crash. ;)
>>
>>Wes
>Virtually every GM ECM code has been cracked and hacked. Many of the
>others too.
I thought so, just wasn't willing to research it enough to state it as fact.
Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller
Comrade technomaNge
> On Mar 24, 1:27 am, Ted Frater <ted.fra...@virgin.net> wrote:
>
>
> I will take all the free ones in a heart beat.
>
If you need some extra parking spots, I've got room for
up to 8.
I'd take a Toyota over any brand except perhaps Honda.
My stepson's the current owner of our 94 Camry.
Comrade technomaNge
--
Due to anticipated high turnout in 2010's election,
the Electorial College has scheduled:
Nov. 1, 2010 All Independents vote.
Nov. 2, 2010 All Republicans vote.
Nov. 3, 2010 All Democrats vote.
Don Foreman
Mine don't. Steering isn't locked until the key is extracted. I do
lose power steering if the engine stops, but steering a Corolla or
Camry is not difficult without power.
Don Foreman
<pfei...@cs.nmsu.edu> wrote:
>"dca...@krl.org" <dca...@krl.org> writes:
>
>> On Mar 24, 4:00 pm, Don Foreman <dfore...@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> wrote
>>
>>>
>>> Both of my Toyotas came with ignition switches.
>>
>> Ah. I expect that they all do, but if you shut off the ignition do
>> they also lock the steering wheel. For some reason I have the
>> impression that they locked the steering.
>
>Apparently the latest ones have a spiffy green button, which you have to
>hold for several seconds to convince the drivetrain to shut down.
My 2010 Camry LE has no such green button. It has a familiar keyed
ignition switch. Ditto the 2009 Corolla.
Joe Pfeiffer
Is it a hybrid?
Don Foreman
<pfei...@cs.nmsu.edu> wrote:
>Don Foreman <dfor...@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> writes:
>
>> On Wed, 24 Mar 2010 18:03:25 -0600, Joe Pfeiffer
>> <pfei...@cs.nmsu.edu> wrote:
>>
>>>"dca...@krl.org" <dca...@krl.org> writes:
>>>
>>>> On Mar 24, 4:00�pm, Don Foreman <dfore...@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> wrote
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Both of my Toyotas came with ignition switches.
>>>>
>>>> Ah. I expect that they all do, but if you shut off the ignition do
>>>> they also lock the steering wheel. For some reason I have the
>>>> impression that they locked the steering.
>>>
>>>Apparently the latest ones have a spiffy green button, which you have to
>>>hold for several seconds to convince the drivetrain to shut down.
>>
>> My 2010 Camry LE has no such green button. It has a familiar keyed
>> ignition switch. Ditto the 2009 Corolla.
>
>Is it a hybrid?
Hell no! It's a 3.5 liter V-6, 268 ponies, lights up and hauls ass
once above 3 grand. Runs the snot right back up my nose. Still gets
very respectable mileage, economy, small carbon footprint and all that
jazz because I usually drive like an old spinster librarian but I do
like that it can step out smartly when I feel a need for speed. A
Ferrari it emphatically is not, but it fetchs the occasional grin for
this old fart.
Roger Shoaf
"Joe Pfeiffer" <pfei...@cs.nmsu.edu> wrote in message
news:1b634o2...@snowball.wb.pfeifferfamily.net...
> OHV yes; timing chains instead of belts yes; 1960s designs no, and I'm
> not sure how well they could be adapted. The heads would need a
> completely clean sheet (a wedge combustion chamber wouldn't stand a
> chance); of course, the weight of a cast iron block would be a real
> problem (are there even trucks other than diesels any more with iron
> blocks?). There's also a host of littler things like the distance to
> the top ring. Manifolds and engine management systems, of course, but
> those are sort of 'external' to the engine, so needing to redo those
> shouldn't count against the idea.
> --
Not sure if they still make it but Ford made the 3.0 l V6 that is a hell of
a good design. My ex wife got over 200k miles on her Taurus and the engine
is not the reason she retired the car. Her replacement was a Sable wagon
with the same engine I found for $570 that had a bad freeze plug and a blown
head gasket. (The previous owner had evedently been running without anti
freeze for a long time and caused all of the damage.) Used engine and
breaks all the way around misc parts like new plugs, new water pump and
having the radiator re-cored, net cost $2,600 with a shop doing all the
labor. For a clean wagon with an 80k engine that purrs and passed smog with
near zero emissions.
In comparison, a simular Honda or Toyota would probably run $4-6k, have a
higher maintenance cost and no greater life expectancy.
--
Roger Shoaf
About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.
Roger Shoaf
"cavelamb" <cave...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:TtidnTwLHp29vDXW...@earthlink.com...
>
> How can you tell when software is getting worn out?
>
If it was a Microsoft product?
Roger Shoaf
<dca...@krl.org> wrote in message
news:fc792a35-3541-4380...@z35g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
A Toyota will not lock the steering just by shutting the engine off. You
need to push in the key in the off position and then turn it to the lock
position. ( Or push the little button depending on the year.)
Ever since they came out with locking steering, all of the companies
engineered in some sort of mechanism to prevent locking the steering wheel
just by shutting of the car.
Roger Shoaf
> But, if you can believe Toyota's explanation, the accelerator problems
> are mechanical -- getting stuck under floor mats, and a bearing getting
> stuck. I'm not sure that I believe Toyota, but I do have memories of
> riding in an old Chevy on the freeway while the driver was reaching down
> to pull the gas pedal off the floor. So your old Peugeot may not have
> had a mechanical throttle failure, but it did happen.
>
Usually caused when the engine was bouncing around because one of your motor
mounts needed to be replaced.
Motor mounts usually broke when the driver would keep his foot on the brake
and floor the throttle or was having fun doing neutral drops.
Driven normally however most engine mounts went to the junk yard intact.
Jeff R.
"Don Foreman" <dfor...@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> wrote in message
news:mt1mq5hddjmcenbm0...@4ax.com...
> Hell no! It's a 3.5 liter V-6, 268 ponies, lights up and hauls ass
> once above 3 grand. Runs the snot right back up my nose...
Thanks Don.
Amidst all the unpleasantness and threatening behaviour in this poor, sad
NG, that observation of yours gave me my first genuine belly laugh for ages.
(Still grinning...)
--
Jeff R.
Larry Jaques
<dfor...@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> scrawled the following:
Steering is free in the ACC position of the ignition lock. Steering is
only locked in the last position, where the key can also be removed.
If it got away from you, just rotate it back (counterclockwise) one
click. You will instantly feel the power go away. Now hang on because
power assist to the steering is gone. Hopefully, you do this on a
straightaway where you can safely bring the vehicle to a stop.
I've been driving my Tundra (a recalled model) for 2 years without
incident, not even an inkling of a glitch. Nearly all of my travel is
local, so that's a lot of starts and stops, too.
--
If we attend continually and promptly to the little that we can do, we
shall ere long be surprised to find how little remains that we cannot do.
-- Samuel Butler
Larry Jaques
<sh...@nospamsyix.com> scrawled the following:
Micro$oft products come pre-worn-out.
-----------------------------------------------
Never attempt to traverse a chasm in two leaps.
===============================================
Winston
> Serious question. I could probably get a sweet deal. My local Honda
> dealer says people are trading them in faster than they can handle even
> 2010's.
I'd buy another Toyota in a shot if they got rid of the dealers in my area first.
--Winston
--
Today's retailer is in an awkward position.
He must assuage his visceral need to anger
some of his clients while having to delight
them sufficiently to guarantee repeat business.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Not unless the gearshift is in park and/or the key is removed - al
least for the last 5 or more years.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
I rember the mechanical injection Peugeot. Pretty well had to retune
it every time the weather changed if you wanted either best efficiency
OR pest power. (at least on the 404)
cl...@snyder.on.ca
<pir...@microsoft.com> wrote:
>dca...@krl.org wrote:
>> On Mar 24, 1:27 am, Ted Frater <ted.fra...@virgin.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I will take all the free ones in a heart beat.
>>
>
>If you need some extra parking spots, I've got room for
>up to 8.
>
>I'd take a Toyota over any brand except perhaps Honda.
>
>My stepson's the current owner of our 94 Camry.
>
>
>
>Comrade technomaNge
I'd even drive a free Chrysler.
Couldn't find a free Toyota or Honda - and at $5000 for the 5 year old
PT I'm driving now, it was about as close as I could findto "free"
steamer
> Hybrid Silverado has been available for at least 2 years. At least
>they CALL it a hybrid.
--Is that the Chevy truck? It's a joke: a V-8 with 2 batteries and
an inverter so you can run a tablesaw by plugging it into a 110 outlet in
the box. Not *my* idea of a 'hybrid'.
--
"Steamboat Ed" Haas : Blue Cross socks us
Hacking the Trailing Edge! : $23,000/yr!! ...
www.nmpproducts.com
---Decks a-wash in a sea of words---
cl...@snyder.on.ca
>In rec.crafts.metalworking cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>> Hybrid Silverado has been available for at least 2 years. At least
>>they CALL it a hybrid.
> --Is that the Chevy truck? It's a joke: a V-8 with 2 batteries and
>an inverter so you can run a tablesaw by plugging it into a 110 outlet in
>the box. Not *my* idea of a 'hybrid'.
It does the "shut down at stops" too,doesn't it?
Concerend Citizen
> > On Mar 21, 10:57 pm, "Chief Egalitarian" <Egal@legal_egal.law> wrote:
> >> Serious question. I could probably get a sweet deal. My local Honda dealer
> >> says people are trading them in faster than they can handle even 2010's.
>
> > No. Too expensive.
>
> > I'd buy a used one.
>
> To answer the headline question,
> no,
> why,?
> you cannot have the smallest chance of a glitch that makes the car go
> when you want it to stop.
> Its called primary structure.
> Just because it can be done by computer doesnt mean it should be, when
> simpler and 100% fail safe solutions are and have been available.
> Id go so far to say I would not have one even if it was given to me for
> free.
> In the aviation world fly by wire is at the minimum duplicated.
> On the Peugeot 305 1984, which I did 250,000 miles, over 25 yrs before
> retiring it due to body rot, the throttle pedal had its own return
> spring, the bosch injection pump als has its own return spring, the 2
> connected together with a simple stainless bowden cable inside a teflon
> sleeved cover.
> Never ever wore out , and you could always see it .
> the eye off the ball.
> Ted.
Merely a ploy to steer buyers to Government Motors. Biden beat you to
it, though.
cavelamb
Consumer Reports.
http://consumerist.com/2010/03/how-does-brake-override-technology-work-in-cars.html
I have to admit, I would probably have pumped the breaks...
BAD mistake.
And might be at the root of all this fuss?
R
Chief Egalitarian
"Concerend Citizen" <hot-ham-a...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9c9c374b-b1a6-467b...@y17g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
I ended up buying a Nissan. Thanks for all the great replies.
Curly Surmudgeon
The 404 had injection? My 504, 1981, has carburation. And fouls #4 plug
regularly. But it pulls the trailer around the finca with a granny first
gear with ease.
--
Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Republican Party: Our Bridge to the 11th Century
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ted Frater
My first Peugeot in 1967 was a 1600 cc petrol.
Then a couple of yrs later traded it for a 404 diesel.
Then ive had diesels since then.
My dad bought a 305 sedan new( we call them saloons here in the UK) in
1984 , I inherited it 4 yrs later with 19,000 miles and ran it till
2009, taking it to 250,000 miles. engine still good, but it got used to
haul wood, and allsorts till the body work got so bad I changed it for a
Suzuki Vitara. That is also now 20 yrs old and as goood as new. Due
to the very high fuel prices here, Ive just gone back to a diesel Vitara
with the 2ltr turbo intercooled Mazda engine. We will be running that on
biodiesel,
Plan to make it ourselves.
We live miles out in the sticks so to do anything or go anywhere we have
to have wheels.
Ted
In Dorset UK.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
The 404 was available with mechanical fuel injection, but carburetion
was the standard setup.. Can't remember the model designation right
off for the injected unit but several friends/associates had them in
Zambia in 1973 . Kugelfischer rings a bell - something like a KF2
Coupe???
Too_Many_Tools
> "Wes" <clu...@lycos.com> wrote in message
>
> news:hobf4t$f4d$2...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
> > cavelamb <cavel...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >>What does it take to cause a bit to flip?
> >>Say, in ten years?
>
> > Stray neutrino's?
>
> > Wes
>
> She'll flip if you complement her a bit.
Is that what works with your boyfriend?
TMT
Too_Many_Tools
> "Concerend Citizen" <hot-ham-and-che...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
Why not American?
TMT
Chief Egalitarian
"Too_Many_Tools" <too_man...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b48d3de0-3c60-4c2b...@k17g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
Just protecting my American non-government job. I work for a company that is
a Nissan supplier. Nissan sends us lots of money, keeping us Republicans
employed. Besides saving some jobs at my place, I saved some jobs in Smyrna,
TN where this car was built. Wasn't Algore from TN? LOL, why didn't his own
statesmen vote for an American from Tennessee? Not many democraps working in
the Republican factories in Smyrna, unlike Detroit the handout city, home to
Government Motors.
Americans only buy American when Republicans are in charge. In the mean
time, good Americans keep good Americans employed in round-about ways. We go
on strike with our wallets, not with signs, dildos, and flailing wrists like
the democraps do. What did you do to stimulate the economy, besides put more
wax on your mommies' dildos? You do realize that wax came from Mexico?
Dan
> Serious question. I could probably get a sweet deal. My local Honda
> dealer says people are trading them in faster than they can handle even
> 2010's.
Yes. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to know how to push in the clutch
pedal if the engine overrevs...
Actually, there is a glitch in their cruise control algorithm: if you
pop the tranny out of gear with the CC engaged, the controller revs the
engine. happens every once in a while when I forget, so I cram in the
clutch or tap the brake. A bit exciting the first time, but not a cause
for concern even then.
I EXPECT to get 250K miles out of a Toyota. Maybe a Benz is in the same
class (as far as life expectancy). Certainly I have no such expectation
from a Honda (though I could be wrong - we got 220K on an Exploder).
Dan
Nicholas
Years ago, when I was driving a company car (Chevy Cavalier) I had the
same problem while on highway cruise control. I never mentioned it to
anyone because I didn't think they would believe me. It only happened
once.
I was coming up to a Toll Plaza and would have rammed into a bunch of
cars were it not for some quick reflexes on my part.
Lg