O.T. Toyota accelerator pics and explanations
wmbjk...@citlink.net
For anyone interested in the nuts and bolts of the Toyota accelerator
boggle, this is the best one-stop explanation I've seen so far. Clear
photos and descriptions. Also shows two different unit styles.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/why-toyota-must-replace-flawed-cts-gas-pedal-with-superior-denso-pedal/
List of additional articles from the same outfit.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/ttacs-complete-guide-to-toyotas-gas-pedals-teardown-pictures-toyotas-fix-analysis-commentary/
I don't agree with all their conclusions, but they did a nice job.
Wayne
Winston
Thanks Wayne,
That is *so* much more credible than the letter I got from Toyota telling
me to throw away my floor mats.
--Winston
--
Support the blind and deaf. Hire a building contractor today!
Wes
>For anyone interested in the nuts and bolts of the Toyota accelerator
>boggle, this is the best one-stop explanation I've seen so far. Clear
>photos and descriptions. Also shows two different unit styles.
>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/why-toyota-must-replace-flawed-cts-gas-pedal-with-superior-denso-pedal/
For a number of years my facility produced electronic throttle bodies. I often speculated
what could go wrong and never thought about the accelerator pedal. Most of the focus I
saw with the design was making sure it would get you home. One of the functional checks
was to make sure that LHS was set to make sure that if the motor that drove the throttle
plate failed, the throttle body would leave the plate open enough to do about 30 mph to
limp home.
I have to wonder why go to electronic throttle bodies in the first place? Was it to give
the PCM final control over driver inputs to satisfy emission regulations?
Wes
Ed Huntress
"Wes" <clu...@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:iIlbn.253088$FK3.1...@en-nntp-06.dc1.easynews.com...
Throttle bodies were a way of coping with emission regulations in the face
of proliferating circuits, jets, vacuum lines, etc. in the electromechanical
carb systems they replaced. IIRC, the carb on my '76 VW Scirocco had around
six circuits. They just couldn't keep up. Electronic control of a single
injector was the salvation.
--
Ed Huntress
Wes
>> I have to wonder why go to electronic throttle bodies in the first place?
>> Was it to give
>> the PCM final control over driver inputs to satisfy emission regulations?
>>
>>
>> Wes
>
>Throttle bodies were a way of coping with emission regulations in the face
>of proliferating circuits, jets, vacuum lines, etc. in the electromechanical
>carb systems they replaced. IIRC, the carb on my '76 VW Scirocco had around
>six circuits. They just couldn't keep up. Electronic control of a single
>injector was the salvation.
The body we produced was just the air regulating portion of the system. I agree going to
EFI solved a lot of problems meeting EPA polution regulations.
Is a mechanical throttle linkage that big a deal to deal with?
I remember my old escort with a cat converter and carburetor, I'd go out and start it on a
cold day and head back in. Without someone to kick the choke off, I'd have a glowing red
spot under that car when I went back out to drive off. Must have been why the matrix
failed in that one.
Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller
Ed Huntress
> "Ed Huntress" <hunt...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
>>> I have to wonder why go to electronic throttle bodies in the first
>>> place?
>>> Was it to give
>>> the PCM final control over driver inputs to satisfy emission
>>> regulations?
>>>
>>>
>>> Wes
>>
>>Throttle bodies were a way of coping with emission regulations in the face
>>of proliferating circuits, jets, vacuum lines, etc. in the
>>electromechanical
>>carb systems they replaced. IIRC, the carb on my '76 VW Scirocco had
>>around
>>six circuits. They just couldn't keep up. Electronic control of a single
>>injector was the salvation.
>
>
> The body we produced was just the air regulating portion of the system. I
> agree going to
> EFI solved a lot of problems meeting EPA polution regulations.
>
> Is a mechanical throttle linkage that big a deal to deal with?
It wasn't just the throttle linkage. Before carbs went out, some of them
(including the Weber on my VW) had an idle circuit; an off-idle circuit; an
accelerator circuit; a mid-range circuit; and a full-throttle circuit. I
don't remember how many jets and emulsion tubes ("aspirators") were in that
two-barrel carburetor, but the combined number was at least eight. Maybe
more.
Madness.
>
> I remember my old escort with a cat converter and carburetor, I'd go out
> and start it on a
> cold day and head back in. Without someone to kick the choke off, I'd
> have a glowing red
> spot under that car when I went back out to drive off. Must have been why
> the matrix
> failed in that one.
>
> Wes
A rich mixture and a catalytic converter, in a car that was running but not
moving, was a good device for starting grass fires. <g>
--
Ed Huntress
wmbjk...@citlink.net
wrote:
The floor mat thing is separate, and no doubt it can be a real problem
in the wrong circumstances. Anybody who's had a soda bottle roll under
the brake pedal of any vehicle can attest to the possibilities, and I
bet it's even worse for those who, thanks to drive-thru fast food,
accumulate a lot of trash and an inability to see their own feet. The
next step is to mandate ignition-interlocked automatic laser scanning
of the footwell. :-)
For the cars subject to the mat recall, it sounds like they're going
to lop a bit off the corners of the accelerator pedal to leave more
room in case drivers want to store outsized stuff down there. The
clipped pedal might hurt driveability a bit for some, as will the
reduced friction on the modded CTS pedals. But I guess that's just the
tip of the iceberg when it comes to the cost of living in a litigious
society, particularly one where "beliefs" must be considered on an
equal basis with logic. On the upside, for anyone who has the factory
all-weather mats, Toyota is going to gift a new set. No explanation
for why they're including one for the passenger side as well. My
theory is that they want to head off a rash of complaints from people
who don't believe that the passenger mat couldn't be part of the
problem. :-)
Wayne
Don Foreman
Thanks for that! I have two Toyotas subject to the recall. After
reading this material, I shall try to have the suspect parts replaced
with those made by Denso even if I must pay for them. We tend to keep
our cars about forever, and that shim fix is a short-term bandaid
kludge.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
I'll dissagree with your conclusion, and explain why.
The sliding shoe friction element is a much better engineering
solution than the friction damped coil spring.
With the proper plastics used, the wear is extremely low, and the
friction is consistent. I believe the modified part will last.
Properly modified in production, the design will work properly long
term.
The Denso design has some serious design issues as well. The steel
spring is rubbing on the structural case of the assembly. Nothing
guarantees that spring will remain straight (pressing equally on both
sides) and if/when that spring wears through the plastic on one side
or the other the coils have a VERY high probability of catching very
firmly on the edge of the worn plastic, jamming the pedal.
The sliding shoe has a lower probability of jamming IF it is properly
restrained in the first place (which the modification does)
wmbjk...@citlink.net
>On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 12:22:53 -0600, Don Foreman
><dfor...@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 10:47:17 -0700, wmbjk...@citlink.net wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>For anyone interested in the nuts and bolts of the Toyota accelerator
>>>boggle, this is the best one-stop explanation I've seen so far. Clear
>>>photos and descriptions. Also shows two different unit styles.
>>>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/why-toyota-must-replace-flawed-cts-gas-pedal-with-superior-denso-pedal/
>>>
>>>List of additional articles from the same outfit.
>>>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/ttacs-complete-guide-to-toyotas-gas-pedals-teardown-pictures-toyotas-fix-analysis-commentary/
>>>
>>>I don't agree with all their conclusions, but they did a nice job.
>>>
>>>Wayne
>>
>>Thanks for that! I have two Toyotas subject to the recall. After
>>reading this material, I shall try to have the suspect parts replaced
>>with those made by Denso even if I must pay for them.
Our Rav4 has the Denso type, and I'm wondering if it has a bit of
stiction. That combined with a fairly light spring and lots of engine
power has resulted in complaints that the car is hard to get off the
line smoothly.
http://rav4world.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=19074&view=next The touchy
launch tendency was most noticeable when the car was new, and in
gentle driving situations. I don't notice it anymore, but I'm not sure
if it got better or I just adapted by subconsciously feathering. The
complaints seem to have dropped off with newer models, perhaps because
they have the CTS style accelerator, but there might have been
firmware changes as well. Anyway, now that you see the breakdown of
the CTS unit, it's clear that any problem is going to be rare, and
should be preceded by stiff operation. If I had one I'd just check it
for smooth operation from time to time. Besides, the Denso might not
be compatible electrically.
>> We tend to keep
>>our cars about forever, and that shim fix is a short-term bandaid
>>kludge.
I think the whole thing is being driven mostly by hype, exactly as the
Audi situation was. Toyota has to respond to it though, and the
"precision cut reinforcement" approach is what they've decided,
probably after thousands of hours of haggling with consultants on
human behavior.
>I'll dissagree with your conclusion, and explain why.
>
>The sliding shoe friction element is a much better engineering
>solution than the friction damped coil spring.
I agree. My guess is that the shoe was intended to be an improvement
over the Denso style.
>With the proper plastics used, the wear is extremely low, and the
>friction is consistent.
And perhaps less tendency for stiction versus the Denso.
> I believe the modified part will last.
>Properly modified in production, the design will work properly long
>term.
>
>The Denso design has some serious design issues as well. The steel
>spring is rubbing on the structural case of the assembly. Nothing
>guarantees that spring will remain straight (pressing equally on both
>sides) and if/when that spring wears through the plastic on one side
>or the other the coils have a VERY high probability of catching very
>firmly on the edge of the worn plastic, jamming the pedal.
>
>The sliding shoe has a lower probability of jamming IF it is properly
>restrained in the first place (which the modification does)
It sounds like the dealers aren't allowed to customize the friction
though. Check out this complaint
http://rav4world.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=24828, which seems
reasonable.
I feel sorry for Toyota. They're almost powerless to stop the tidal
wave of irrational thinking and conspiracy theories. It's probably
just a matter of time before someone brings up the grassy knoll. :-)
Wayne
Don Foreman
Sounds reasonable. Perhaps I'll leave the engineering of my Toyotas
to Toyota. <G>
Wes
>I feel sorry for Toyota. They're almost powerless to stop the tidal
>wave of irrational thinking and conspiracy theories. It's probably
>just a matter of time before someone brings up the grassy knoll. :-)
The sharks smell the chum in the water.
I've never owned a toyota but many family members have. They make
solid product and don't have to scrimp on things like GM/FORD/CHRYSLER
do to meet legacy financial obligations.
I feel sorry for them too.
Wes
Paul Hovnanian P.E.
>
> "Ed Huntress" <hunt...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
> >> I have to wonder why go to electronic throttle bodies in the first place?
> >> Was it to give
> >> the PCM final control over driver inputs to satisfy emission regulations?
> >>
> >>
> >> Wes
> >
> >Throttle bodies were a way of coping with emission regulations in the face
> >of proliferating circuits, jets, vacuum lines, etc. in the electromechanical
> >carb systems they replaced. IIRC, the carb on my '76 VW Scirocco had around
> >six circuits. They just couldn't keep up. Electronic control of a single
> >injector was the salvation.
>
> The body we produced was just the air regulating portion of the system. I agree going to
> EFI solved a lot of problems meeting EPA polution regulations.
>
> Is a mechanical throttle linkage that big a deal to deal with?
Yes. A single actuator replaces the cruise control drive, mechanical
dash pots (to contol butterfly closing speed), seperate idle speed
controls, and makes traction control systems that cut engine power much
simpler to implement.
Not to mention that routing mechanical throttle cables in some engines
is at times a non trivial engineering task.
--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:Pa...@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
Message returned to sender -- insufficient voltage.
Don Foreman
>Our Rav4 has the Denso type, and I'm wondering if it has a bit of
>stiction. That combined with a fairly light spring and lots of engine
>power has resulted in complaints that the car is hard to get off the
>line smoothly.
>http://rav4world.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=19074&view=next The touchy
>launch tendency was most noticeable when the car was new, and in
>gentle driving situations. I don't notice it anymore, but I'm not sure
>if it got better or I just adapted by subconsciously feathering. The
>complaints seem to have dropped off with newer models, perhaps because
>they have the CTS style accelerator, but there might have been
>firmware changes as well. Anyway, now that you see the breakdown of
>the CTS unit, it's clear that any problem is going to be rare, and
>should be preceded by stiff operation. If I had one I'd just check it
>for smooth operation from time to time. Besides, the Denso might not
>be compatible electrically.
I strongly doubt that the Denso is not electrically compatible but I
agree with your other observations and prognosis.
We do tend to adapt as drivers. It took me a couple of weeks to
transition from my Ford Contour V6 5-speed stick to the Corolla XLE
4-banger of very similar power and displacement with 5-speed stick.
The clutches were that different.
Then we traded Mary's Contour for a Camry, V-6, auto trannie. That
was to be her car. Didn't turn out to be so. She loves the agility
and responsiveness of the Corolla. She's a double-clutchin'
stick-shift gal. I must say I enjoy the nice ride of the Camry, and
with it's V6 engine and 6-speed auto trannie it manages not to bore
this old fart. It's a nice ride. I do enjoy driving the Corolla now
and then but I'll admit to enjoying the easy ride of the Camry. What
the hell, today is my 68th birthday, I'm a certified oldfart.
Karl Townsend
> and then but I'll admit to enjoying the easy ride of the Camry. What
> the hell, today is my 68th birthday, I'm a certified oldfart.
HAPPY BIRTHDAY! Don.
Try moving to Florida. You'll be a kid again.
Karl
Gunner Asch
Happy Birthday Ya old Fart!
Gunner
Whenever a Liberal utters the term "Common Sense approach"....grab your
wallet, your ass, and your guns because the sombitch is about to do
something damned nasty to all three of them.
Larry Jaques
<Pa...@Hovnanian.com> scrawled the following:
>Wes wrote:
>>
>> "Ed Huntress" <hunt...@optonline.net> wrote:
>>
>> >> I have to wonder why go to electronic throttle bodies in the first place?
>> >> Was it to give
>> >> the PCM final control over driver inputs to satisfy emission regulations?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Wes
>> >
>> >Throttle bodies were a way of coping with emission regulations in the face
>> >of proliferating circuits, jets, vacuum lines, etc. in the electromechanical
>> >carb systems they replaced. IIRC, the carb on my '76 VW Scirocco had around
>> >six circuits. They just couldn't keep up. Electronic control of a single
>> >injector was the salvation.
>>
>> The body we produced was just the air regulating portion of the system. I agree going to
>> EFI solved a lot of problems meeting EPA polution regulations.
>>
>> Is a mechanical throttle linkage that big a deal to deal with?
>
>Yes. A single actuator replaces the cruise control drive, mechanical
>dash pots (to contol butterfly closing speed), seperate idle speed
>controls, and makes traction control systems that cut engine power much
>simpler to implement.
>
>Not to mention that routing mechanical throttle cables in some engines
>is at times a non trivial engineering task.
Remember the old linkage throttle setups? If you broke a motor mount
and hit the gas, the engine would rock and lock the throttle WFO. What
fun that was! Remedy was safer back then because they didn't tie the
ignition key in with a steering wheel lock.
--
We don't receive wisdom; we must discover it for ourselves
after a journey that no one can take for us or spare us.
-- Marcel Proust
Larry Jaques
<dfor...@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> scrawled the following:
>On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 14:01:48 -0700, wmbjk...@citlink.net wrote:
>
>
>>Our Rav4 has the Denso type, and I'm wondering if it has a bit of
>>stiction. That combined with a fairly light spring and lots of engine
>>power has resulted in complaints that the car is hard to get off the
>>line smoothly.
>>http://rav4world.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=19074&view=next The touchy
>>launch tendency was most noticeable when the car was new, and in
>>gentle driving situations. I don't notice it anymore, but I'm not sure
>>if it got better or I just adapted by subconsciously feathering. The
>>complaints seem to have dropped off with newer models, perhaps because
>>they have the CTS style accelerator, but there might have been
>>firmware changes as well. Anyway, now that you see the breakdown of
>>the CTS unit, it's clear that any problem is going to be rare, and
>>should be preceded by stiff operation. If I had one I'd just check it
>>for smooth operation from time to time. Besides, the Denso might not
>>be compatible electrically.
>
>I strongly doubt that the Denso is not electrically compatible but I
>agree with your other observations and prognosis.
I'm on the fence. I don't really like either plastic model. I guess
we'll wait and see, once again.
>We do tend to adapt as drivers. It took me a couple of weeks to
>transition from my Ford Contour V6 5-speed stick to the Corolla XLE
>4-banger of very similar power and displacement with 5-speed stick.
>The clutches were that different.
>
>Then we traded Mary's Contour for a Camry, V-6, auto trannie. That
>was to be her car. Didn't turn out to be so. She loves the agility
>and responsiveness of the Corolla. She's a double-clutchin'
>stick-shift gal.
She wears the pants in the family, eh? <duckin', bigtime>
>I must say I enjoy the nice ride of the Camry, and
>with it's V6 engine and 6-speed auto trannie it manages not to bore
>this old fart. It's a nice ride. I do enjoy driving the Corolla now
>and then but I'll admit to enjoying the easy ride of the Camry.
They're very nice cars. I adore my stiff old Tundra, with its modern
cabin and wrap-around seats.
>What the hell, today is my 68th birthday, I'm a certified oldfart.
Yeah, certified -eons- ago. HBD, big guy!
wmbjk...@citlink.net
<novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote:
>Remember the old linkage throttle setups? If you broke a motor mount
>and hit the gas, the engine would rock and lock the throttle WFO. What
>fun that was!
Had that happen to me while crossing some traffic into a parking lot.
I stood on the brakes and shut off the ignition. '69 pontiac, with
column-mounted ignition. Not sure if it had a detent on the lock
position, but it almost certainly did. Now that I think about it, I
had a '64 pontiac that also suffered a broken mount, which resulted in
the distributor hitting the firewall and slightly bending the shaft,
which gave me fits trying to figure out why it was running poorly.
The GM combination ignition/steering column locks came out in 1969,
and the motor mount delamination issue affected some models up until
1970. http://www.autosafety.org/chevrolet-motor-mounts
> Remedy was safer back then because they didn't tie the
>ignition key in with a steering wheel lock.
That seems to be a common misconception. I can turn the key off safely
while underway on my '08 Toyota no problem, which I'm pretty sure that
one can do with every modern vehicle. Anyway, the recommended remedy
these days is to brake, and shift into neutral if necessary. Too many
people have no idea what their steering or brakes will feel like with
the engine shut off, so generally people shouldn't do that until
they're safely stopped.
Wayne
Don Foreman
<novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote:
>>
>>Then we traded Mary's Contour for a Camry, V-6, auto trannie. That
>>was to be her car. Didn't turn out to be so. She loves the agility
>>and responsiveness of the Corolla. She's a double-clutchin'
>>stick-shift gal.
>
>She wears the pants in the family, eh? <duckin', bigtime>
S'allright, she looks great in jeans!
Don Foreman
My wife's Corolla has a neat safety feature. There's a footpedal on
the floor to the left of the brake pedal. Depressing this pedal
disconnects the engine from the drive train!
Mark Rand
<dfor...@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> wrote:
>
>My wife's Corolla has a neat safety feature. There's a footpedal on
>the floor to the left of the brake pedal. Depressing this pedal
>disconnects the engine from the drive train!
Cool, What will they think of next?
<G>
Mark Rand
RTFM
Winston
(...)
> My wife's Corolla has a neat safety feature. There's a footpedal on
> the floor to the left of the brake pedal. Depressing this pedal
> disconnects the engine from the drive train!
That is nifty!
Say Don -- I always wondered what that funny little lever was that
sticks out of the left side of the steering column.
I bumped it once and there was flashing lights and a ticking sound!
Scared the crap out of me.
Wes
>> Is a mechanical throttle linkage that big a deal to deal with?
>
>Yes. A single actuator replaces the cruise control drive, mechanical
>dash pots (to contol butterfly closing speed), seperate idle speed
>controls, and makes traction control systems that cut engine power much
>simpler to implement.
>
>Not to mention that routing mechanical throttle cables in some engines
>is at times a non trivial engineering task.
Okay. You have a few good points there. :)
Thanks,
Wes
Wes
>What
>the hell, today is my 68th birthday, I'm a certified oldfart.
But you are young in spirit. That is what counts.
Happy Birthday!
Wes
wmbjk...@citlink.net
<dfor...@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> wrote:
>My wife's Corolla has a neat safety feature. There's a footpedal on
>the floor to the left of the brake pedal. Depressing this pedal
>disconnects the engine from the drive train!
My Austin Werstern has the dual function version of that - it also
acts as a slingshot acceleration device if you push it in while
driving down a steep hill. Worried Toyota drivers might not like the
fact that there's no gas pedal to blame for anything though. Nor would
they be happy with the ergonomics in general since it has a grand
total of 13 levers, 3 pedals, and 1 hopelessly overburdened drum
brake. Fortunately it's equipped with 2 devastatingly effective
emergency/parking devices as well. The only feature worse than the
main brake is the mileage. The other day it used 8 gallons to cover 8
miles which took 8 hours, including an 8 minute lunch break. At least
the math is easy work.
Wayne
Michael A. Terrell
Old Fart? That was 18 years ago. Now you're just two years from
geezerhood! ;-)
BTW, happy birthday Don. :)
--
Greed is the root of all eBay.
Pete Keillor
Yup, happy birthday! I was talking to Dad yesterday. He commented
that Mrs. Wollam he figured was maybe mid 60 ish had her 78th
birthday. I replied "Well damn, Dad, oldest sister turns 63 and I
turn 60 this year. You just had your 90th. How did you figure she
was in her 60's?" He said yeah, it was her hair dye. Of course, 77
might look pretty good when you're 90.
He also said he's been recruiting some of those 70 + youngsters to
play dominos. His domino crowd keeps getting thinned out, so they
need "new" blood.
Pete Keillor
Don Foreman
wrote:
>On 2/8/2010 10:13 AM, Don Foreman wrote:
>
>(...)
>
>> My wife's Corolla has a neat safety feature. There's a footpedal on
>> the floor to the left of the brake pedal. Depressing this pedal
>> disconnects the engine from the drive train!
>
>That is nifty!
>
>Say Don -- I always wondered what that funny little lever was that
>sticks out of the left side of the steering column.
>I bumped it once and there was flashing lights and a ticking sound!
>
>Scared the crap out of me.
>
>--Winston
About a decade ago I went to pick up my first hearing aids. When
starting to drive back home, I noted a clacking sound. Oh swell, I'm
25 miles from home, what's busted? Noted that the clacking did not
seem related to vehicle speed (so not CV joints) nor to engine speed.
Hm? When I completed my turn onto the road out of the parking lot,
the clacking stopped. It was the turn signal. I'd had that car for 5
years and had never heard the turn signal.
Don Foreman
I sure am getting tired of snow!
cavelamb
Five more weeks, Don.
according to Phil the Groundhog.
--
Richard Lamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/
cavelamb
>
What
> the hell, today is my 68th birthday, I'm a certified oldfart.
>
>
>
And I'm woosie having problems facing 60.
cavelamb
> Yup, happy birthday! I was talking to Dad yesterday. He commented
> that Mrs. Wollam he figured was maybe mid 60 ish had her 78th
> birthday. I replied "Well damn, Dad, oldest sister turns 63 and I
> turn 60 this year. You just had your 90th. How did you figure she
> was in her 60's?" He said yeah, it was her hair dye. Of course, 77
> might look pretty good when you're 90.
>
> He also said he's been recruiting some of those 70 + youngsters to
> play dominos. His domino crowd keeps getting thinned out, so they
> need "new" blood.
>
> Pete Keillor
70 NEVER looks good.
Even if we pass 80, it's the 24 year olds that look good.
The 70's are just what you can catch...
Don Foreman
Thanks! I was thinkin' about those Toyota technicians working under
the dash on the accelerators all day. Man, I'm glad I don't have to
do that. My body hurts just thinkin' about it.
I am thinking about trying some IDPA match shooting. My old friend
and colleague Jack is too, so we may egg each other on. It looks like
it might be a lot of fun, and after watching some Youtube videos I
think I could try it without embarrassing myself too badly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAT4QPrHy0c
Shoot, I could do that, it looks like a lot of fun and a level of
physical activity that I could handle and enjoy. The guy in the video
certainly does display outstanding muzzle control as in recoil
management. As the HR direktorchik might say, I may have a growth
opportunity in that regard. I don't know what I look like when
shooting. I do tend to hit my targets but good recoil control helps to
deliver fire on target more rapidly and time is a factor in IDPA.
All I'd need to buy would be an inexpensive holster and a carry
garment or vest. I'm not real good at deliberate slowfire bullseye
shooting with handguns because when I focus on the front sight the
target is a vague blur to these old eyes, but I'm not half bad at
pointed rapid fire of respectable calibers at tactical-type targets at
tactical ranges of 25 yards and less. I need to work on longer ranges.
Jack is amazing at ranges out to 100 yards with handgun.
Don't judge the guy in the video for his clumsy performance in
changing magazines until you've tried it. I made that part of my
practice last summer. It's not difficult to get it quick and sure but
it definitely does take some practice with each particular handgun.
I'm pretty sure I'd be the oldest guy there and Jack would be the
second oldest.
Joe Pfeiffer
Did you spend the entire five years with the turn signal blinking? :)
--
As we enjoy great advantages from the inventions of others, we should
be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours;
and this we should do freely and generously. (Benjamin Franklin)
Don Foreman
wrote:
>Don Foreman wrote:
>>
> What
>> the hell, today is my 68th birthday, I'm a certified oldfart.
>>
>>
>>
>
>And I'm woosie having problems facing 60.
The only thing that matters is what you are able to do vs what you
might want or aspire to do. Surprises do happen and they get more
likely with advancing age.
Perhaps it's time for you to sail on a voyage?
Larry Jaques
<dfor...@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> scrawled the following:
>On Mon, 08 Feb 2010 08:23:08 -0700, wmbjk...@citlink.net wrote:
In Japanese, that's know as a "Crutch", isn't it?
Larry Jaques
<dfor...@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> scrawled the following:
>On Mon, 08 Feb 2010 14:08:58 -0800, Winston <Win...@bigbrother.net>
Oh, crap, you're one of THOSE guys, who drives with their left turn
signal on all day, especially just before they turn right _just_ as we
try to pass you in the right lane? ;)
Congrats on your newlyfound hearing, whenever that was.
Larry Jaques
<dfor...@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> scrawled the following:
>On Mon, 08 Feb 2010 07:21:13 -0800, Larry Jaques
I love a properly proportioned (meaning smaller/less gut than me) gal
in tight jeans.
Pete C.
Don Foreman wrote:
>
> My wife's Corolla has a neat safety feature. There's a footpedal on
> the floor to the left of the brake pedal. Depressing this pedal
> disconnects the engine from the drive train!
You hope it does... In many years of driving a manual transmission
vehicle, the only clutch problem I have had was failure to release when
the pedal was pressed. I assure you that this is a very irritating
condition.
John Husvar
Larry Jaques <novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 08 Feb 2010 11:50:42 -0600, the infamous Don Foreman
> <dfor...@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> scrawled the following:
>
> >On Mon, 08 Feb 2010 07:21:13 -0800, Larry Jaques
> ><novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>>
> >>>Then we traded Mary's Contour for a Camry, V-6, auto trannie. That
> >>>was to be her car. Didn't turn out to be so. She loves the agility
> >>>and responsiveness of the Corolla. She's a double-clutchin'
> >>>stick-shift gal.
> >>
> >>She wears the pants in the family, eh? <duckin', bigtime>
> >
> >S'allright, she looks great in jeans!
>
> I love a properly proportioned (meaning smaller/less gut than me) gal
> in tight jeans.
>
Well, _I_ tend to like the same, but I like 'em even more _out_ of the
tight jeans.
Incidentally, Larry, you're my All-Time Top Source of Stolen Quotes for
our break room Quote of the Week wall.
cavelamb
Or as my Dad used to say...
You know you are getting old when it takes all night
to do what you used to do all night...
Lewis Hartswick
> My wife's Corolla has a neat safety feature. There's a footpedal on
> the floor to the left of the brake pedal. Depressing this pedal
> disconnects the engine from the drive train!
I wouldn't have a car without one of those. :-) Did have a few
without back in the 50's but not since.
...Lew...
Lewis Hartswick
...lew...
Joe Pfeiffer
> On 2/8/2010 10:13 AM, Don Foreman wrote:
>
> (...)
>
>> My wife's Corolla has a neat safety feature. There's a footpedal on
>> the floor to the left of the brake pedal. Depressing this pedal
>> disconnects the engine from the drive train!
>
> That is nifty!
>
> Say Don -- I always wondered what that funny little lever was that
> sticks out of the left side of the steering column.
> I bumped it once and there was flashing lights and a ticking sound!
>
> Scared the crap out of me.
Ah, so you're this guy?
http://www.bbspot.com/News/2003/11/bmw.html
Winston
> Winston<Win...@bigbrother.net> writes:
(...)
>> I bumped it once and there was flashing lights and a ticking sound!
>>
>> Scared the crap out of me.
>
> Ah, so you're this guy?
> http://www.bbspot.com/News/2003/11/bmw.html
I wish.
That guy found out how to make his headlights less bright.
Prolly knows how to turn off his horn, too.
F. George McDuffee
wrote:
>
>For anyone interested in the nuts and bolts of the Toyota accelerator
>boggle, this is the best one-stop explanation I've seen so far. Clear
>photos and descriptions. Also shows two different unit styles.
>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/why-toyota-must-replace-flawed-cts-gas-pedal-with-superior-denso-pedal/
>
>List of additional articles from the same outfit.
>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/ttacs-complete-guide-to-toyotas-gas-pedals-teardown-pictures-toyotas-fix-analysis-commentary/
>
>I don't agree with all their conclusions, but they did a nice job.
>
>Wayne
===========
Like so many things in Washington lately, like sewage from a
leaky pipe additional information is slowly oozing out.
It now turns out that one of the private insurance companies
[State Farm] had warned both Toyota and the NHTSA/DOT of
accelerator and brake problems in 2007 as a result of statistical
analysis of their claims database.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100209/ap_on_bi_ge/us_toyota_recall_us;_ylt=AsGpa06sFRzTLppoIS6LYC_rcLQF;_ylu=X3oDMTM4MGM4cm45BGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTAwMjA5L3VzX3RveW90YV9yZWNhbGxfdXMEY2NvZGUDbW9zdHBvcHVsYXIEY3BvcwMzBHBvcwMzBHNlYwN5bl90b3Bfc3RvcmllcwRzbGsDc3RhdGVmYXJtc2F5
This appears to be yet another case where the taxpayers are
paying twice for government they are not receiving. First with
their taxes and then with their blood and lives when the
government fails to even minimally do the job it collected the
taxes for.
In this case, given the mandate of the NHTSA
http://www.nhtsa.gov/
it would appear to be a "no brainer" to simply require that the
major insurance companies submit copies of their claims records
on a monthly, or even a weekly basis in machine readable format,
for consolidation into a master NHTSA incident data base, which
would then be statistically analyzed and pattern searched for
trends and clusters. As the claims forms/data include the exact
locations, VIN numbers (which with manufacturers data specify oem
equipment], times, dates, etc. this would provide a comprehensive
almost real time overview and analysis, of vehicle and other
problems, with early warning before catastrophe strikes.
The cost to do this should be minimal The computer
equipment/personnel already exists, the insurance claims data is
already in machine readable format although it may require NHTSA
"translation" to a common data format, the statistical cluster
and trend analysis techniques are common knowledge, and the
pattern recognition/data mining methodology has already been
developed by NAS and others [commercially available].
(google <software "pattern matching"> for 638k hits
and <software "data mining"> for 8,430k hits if interested.)
Such analysis may even run on a high-end PC with one or more
tbyte drives. Any systems analysts that have some insight into
what is legitimately required out there that would care to
comment?
I am composing a letter on this to my Congress persons which I
will post to the NGs in case anyone wants to use it.
Unka George (George McDuffee)
..............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).
RBnDFW
George, that is the same agency that screwed up the Firestone/Ford
Explorer tire debacle using just such a database. You cannot trust a
government agency with facts, or even statistics.
Ed Wallace had a good piece on that at the time
F. George McDuffee
<gmcd...@mcduffee-associates.us> wrote:
<snip>
>I am composing a letter on this to my Congress persons which I
>will post to the NGs in case anyone wants to use it.
=========
If anyone is interested here is the letter.
To identify your representative/senators and use their web mail
goto http://house.gov/ and http://senate.gov/
Letter is too long to send as is to the White House, so you will
need to edit.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/contact/
----- start -----
The specific difficulty to which I am referring is the series of
Toyota vehicle management problems, known to include
acceleration, braking, and now [power] steering. All of these
seem to be related to the "drive by wire" computerized vehicle
control system. Unfortunately, there are very probably many more
such difficulties that have not yet been identified, or which
have been "stonewalled" by the regulators and/or the
manufacturers.
THE AMERICAN PEOPLE DESERVE FAR BETTER THAN THEY ARE GETTING FOR
THEIR TAX DOLLARS. In too many cases they are paying twice.
First in money for governmental services not received, and then
with their lives, blood and property when these services are not
provided.
Two old sayings appear to summarize this entire class of
problems.
(1) God helps those who help themselves; and
(2) When you need a helping hand, try the end of your arm.
THE IMPORTANT THING IS THIS PROJECT NOT GET BOGGED DOWN IN
ENDLESS DEBATE AND WRANGLING ABOUT THE DATA LAYOUT/CODING OR
EQUIPMENT PROCUREMENT. PEOPLE ARE DYING BECAUSE OF THE LACK OF
THIS INFORMATION AND ACTION.
Rather than belaboring the details of this particular (Toyota)
situation, I propose a more complete solution.
PROBLEM STATEMENT: The problem is that vehicle defects and
"anomalies" are generally not detected and acted on until there
is a crisis or disaster. By this time the cost to correct is
astronomical, and considerable loss of life, personal injury and
property damage has already occurred.
WHAT IS REQUIRED: An "early warning system" to allow immediate
voluntary corrective action to be taken, backed up by heavy fines
and criminal sanctions for inaction.
A news article from Reuters indicates that as early as 2007 the
State Farm Insurance Company had detected trends/cluster in their
claims data. As a courtesy, they informed NHTSA BUT NO
REGULATORY ACTION WAS TAKEN.
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE61751H20100208
This will be a minimal cost outlay project, QUITE POSSIBLY
REQUIRING NO ADDITIONAL FUNDING, but rather the redeployment of
existing assets/personnel from less critical tasks. Even with
full allocation and burden, the total cost should not exceed
100,000$US nor require more than a few (6) months to fully
implement. While I am not a computer systems analyst or data
base administrator, it appears that one or at most a few highline
PCS with a few terabyte drives should be adequate as LAN servers
and high-normal PCs should be adequate as work stations.
While a Presidential "finding" or directive could well accomplish
the following items, it is suggested that Congress pass emergency
legislation, with criminal sanctions for failure to implement, to
mandate the following:
Note that NHTSA may already be receiving much of this data, but
is simply warehousing rather than processing it.
(1) Mandate by law that the major vehicle insurance companies
provide NHTSA with weekly copies of their claims databases in
machine-readable format. To start, the companies would also be
required to provide copies of their historical claims records in
machine-readable format for as far back as these are available.
The required infrastructure for this data transmission already
exists in the form of the Internet. Some slight one-time
programming expense may be incurred at NTSA to translate the
submitted files into a common NHTSA data format/coding.
(2) Mandate by law that the vehicle manufactures/importers
supply NHTSA with listings by VIN numbers showing the OEM
equipment and accessories [such as electronic power steering] and
critical components such as tires [e.g. Ford Explorers]. Again,
some slight one-time startup expense may be incurred to translate
into a common NHTSA format.
(3) Combine the data from items (1) and (2) into a master NHTSA
database, and use existing common statistical techniques for
cluster/trend analysis, "pattern matching" and "data mining."
The required software is widely available commercially, and other
governmental agencies such as NSA could be asked to provide their
expertise.
(4) Use the findings from (3) to advise the vehicle and
component/accessory manufacturers of actual and potential
problems (clusters, patterns and trends) as soon as these are
detected, with public announcement of the findings, possibly with
a 30 to 90 day delay, to allow agency/manufacturer investigation
and/or corrective action. Item (4) is where significant fines
and/or criminal sanctions may well be required to insure
continued and timely action.
Given the actual and potential loss of life, personal injury and
property damage involved, and the minimal expense, a reply would
be appreciated.
---- end----
Wes
>On Mon, 08 Feb 2010 18:08:12 -0500, Wes <clu...@lycos.com> wrote:
>
>>Don Foreman <dfor...@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> wrote:
>>
>>>What
>>>the hell, today is my 68th birthday, I'm a certified oldfart.
>>
>>But you are young in spirit. That is what counts.
>>
>>Happy Birthday!
>>
>Thanks! I was thinkin' about those Toyota technicians working under
>the dash on the accelerators all day. Man, I'm glad I don't have to
>do that. My body hurts just thinkin' about it.
I used to have to work on, as replace, components of the F4-J's radar that were located in
the cockpits. Roomy is the word if the comparison is to the typical modern compact or sub
compact automobile.
>I am thinking about trying some IDPA match shooting. My old friend
>and colleague Jack is too, so we may egg each other on. It looks like
>it might be a lot of fun, and after watching some Youtube videos I
>think I could try it without embarrassing myself too badly.
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAT4QPrHy0c
I shot IDPA for a few years and I enjoyed it a lot. Conflicts with my work schedule
caused me to stop but someday, I'll be doing it again. I've shot High Power, PPC,
Bullesye, and IDPA, I have to say IDPA was the most fun. High Power coming in second. The
club has a 600 year range.
>
>Shoot, I could do that, it looks like a lot of fun and a level of
>physical activity that I could handle and enjoy. The guy in the video
>certainly does display outstanding muzzle control as in recoil
>management. As the HR direktorchik might say, I may have a growth
>opportunity in that regard. I don't know what I look like when
>shooting. I do tend to hit my targets but good recoil control helps to
>deliver fire on target more rapidly and time is a factor in IDPA.
>All I'd need to buy would be an inexpensive holster and a carry
>garment or vest. I'm not real good at deliberate slowfire bullseye
>shooting with handguns because when I focus on the front sight the
>target is a vague blur to these old eyes, but I'm not half bad at
>pointed rapid fire of respectable calibers at tactical-type targets at
>tactical ranges of 25 yards and less. I need to work on longer ranges.
>Jack is amazing at ranges out to 100 yards with handgun.
We had a member of the club that is a double amputee due to his service in Viet Nam. We
put conveyor belting placed strategically so he could shoot and work the scenario from his
wheel chair. He was pretty darn good.
>
>Don't judge the guy in the video for his clumsy performance in
>changing magazines until you've tried it. I made that part of my
>practice last summer. It's not difficult to get it quick and sure but
>it definitely does take some practice with each particular handgun.
I know the challenges. I had one day when I was on. I took my shots, knew I was on my
last, switched to one hand since the range was close, thumbed the mag release in recoil as
my weak hand reached for a mag. Like magic, my left met my pistol in rebound, the mag
slid in, and I released the slide to chamber and took my next shot. The range officer was
impressed.
I've never been that smooth again but I know it can be done.
>
>I'm pretty sure I'd be the oldest guy there and Jack would be the
>second oldest.
Age is not a serious handicap in this. A number of our serious high power shooters
changed to IDPA when their rifle shooting skills using iron sights at long ranges
declined. They held their own quite well.
Wes
F. George McDuffee
wrote:
<snip>
>> I am composing a letter on this to my Congress persons which I
>> will post to the NGs in case anyone wants to use it.
>
>George, that is the same agency that screwed up the Firestone/Ford
>Explorer tire debacle using just such a database. You cannot trust a
>government agency with facts, or even statistics.
=============
Then at the bottom this is not an automotive problem but a
systemic regulatory problem. IMNSHO one of the quickest and most
certain ways to cure this type of systemic problem is a few high
profile firings or in the old days a few public hangings.
A few ranking NHTSA people pulling 3 to 5 at Allenwood or one of
our other fine Federal correctional facilities [with loss of
pension benefits] for involuntary manslaughter would have worked
wonders.
wmbjk...@citlink.net
<gmcd...@mcduffee-associates.us> wrote:
>On Tue, 09 Feb 2010 14:00:24 -0600, F. George McDuffee
><gmcd...@mcduffee-associates.us> wrote:
><snip>
>>I am composing a letter on this to my Congress persons which I
>>will post to the NGs in case anyone wants to use it.
><snip>
>=========
>If anyone is interested here is the letter.
>
>To identify your representative/senators and use their web mail
>goto http://house.gov/ and http://senate.gov/
>
>Letter is too long to send as is to the White House, so you will
>need to edit.
>http://www.whitehouse.gov/contact/
>
>----- start -----
>The specific difficulty to which I am referring is the series of
>Toyota vehicle management problems, known to include
>acceleration, braking, and now [power] steering. All of these
>seem to be related to the "drive by wire" computerized vehicle
>control system.
Your entire approach is based on logical fallacies, but I doubt that
anything will dissuade you from fanning the flames of hysteria. My
only hope is that you own a Toyota, and get to see your resale value
bottom out at about the same time we get confirmation that the whole
thing was much ado about nothing. IOW, Audi Psychosis Part Deux.
> Unfortunately, there are very probably many more
>such difficulties that have not yet been identified, or which
>have been "stonewalled" by the regulators and/or the
>manufacturers.
Well sure, the evidence for the ever-growing conspiracy is "very
probably" cut and dried, right? Why not save some time and throw the
Toyota execs in the water to see if they float?
"We Have Met The Enemy and He Is Us" Walt Kelly
Wayne
F. George McDuffee
wrote:
<snip>
>>The specific difficulty to which I am referring is the series of
>>Toyota vehicle management problems, known to include
>>acceleration, braking, and now [power] steering. All of these
>>seem to be related to the "drive by wire" computerized vehicle
>>control system.
>
>Your entire approach is based on logical fallacies, but I doubt that
>anything will dissuade you from fanning the flames of hysteria. My
>only hope is that you own a Toyota, and get to see your resale value
>bottom out at about the same time we get confirmation that the whole
>thing was much ado about nothing. IOW, Audi Psychosis Part Deux.
Thank you for posting your well thought out and tactful critique
of my letter. Please be sure to post a copy of your letter to
the newsgroups so the readers can use it as a model in place of
my poor effort when writing to Congress.
For the record my vehicles are
1990 Ford T'bird 300k miles
1978 Mercury Monarch I-block 6 100k miles
2000 Honda Helix scooter 25k miles.
aasb...@aol.com
on LBF in north Dallas some years ago. I think they hit and maybe
killed a cop on the road. I can't find anything on it though.
Andy
Don Foreman
Since you don't own a Toyota, why are you making so much noise? I, as
a Toyota owner, feel no need for you or the gummint to act on my
behalf thanks anyway. Toyota has a hell of a lot better record of
integrity than the gummint, and you can only be effective by
magnifying your voice via gummint if you can contrive to do so.
We had two Ford Contours for many years. We liked them a lot, but
they started getting flaky after 15 years but way under 100K miles,
and the last experience with the Ford dealer was expensive and
displayed incompetence,contempt for customer or both. OK, time to
replace them when dealers were hungry, sales tax on vehicles was
deductable in 2009, and Ford had degraded to treating us as easy prey.
We bought two Toyotas, a Corolla and a Camry. Both are on the recall
list.
I am not a bit dismayed by this. I don't care if the book value dips
for a while due to hysterical reaction to a recall for a minor problem
having very low probability of affecting us and high probability of
being fixed by the recall. I don't regard cars as investments, but as
long-term consumables. The longer the term the better. Toyota has an
excellent track record in that regard. Far better than the 80K miles
we got from our Fords before they became more costly than their worth
to keep running. We really did like those Contours, but we don't
miss them a bit because we like the Toyotas even better.
A measure of a company is whether or not they have problems and how
often, but perhaps a more relevant measure of a company is how
responsibly and responsively they deal with problems when they occur.
We had recalls on our Ford Contours too, no big deal. Something to do
with the catalytic converters and possible fires, don't recall the
details.
Larry Jaques
<jhu...@sbcglobal.net> scrawled the following:
>In article <6tj2n59ounje411o2...@4ax.com>,
> Larry Jaques <novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 08 Feb 2010 11:50:42 -0600, the infamous Don Foreman
>> <dfor...@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> scrawled the following:
>>
>> >On Mon, 08 Feb 2010 07:21:13 -0800, Larry Jaques
>> ><novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >>>
>> >>>Then we traded Mary's Contour for a Camry, V-6, auto trannie. That
>> >>>was to be her car. Didn't turn out to be so. She loves the agility
>> >>>and responsiveness of the Corolla. She's a double-clutchin'
>> >>>stick-shift gal.
>> >>
>> >>She wears the pants in the family, eh? <duckin', bigtime>
>> >
>> >S'allright, she looks great in jeans!
>>
>> I love a properly proportioned (meaning smaller/less gut than me) gal
>> in tight jeans.
>
>Well, _I_ tend to like the same, but I like 'em even more _out_ of the
>tight jeans.
Yabbut, ya gotta appreciate them in clothes -first-, right?
A 2 second sight of a lovely woman in tight jeans is our foreplay,
wot?
>Incidentally, Larry, you're my All-Time Top Source of Stolen Quotes for
>our break room Quote of the Week wall.
That makes me feel all warm and fuzzy. Thanks, John. I try harder.
Larry Jaques
<aux3....@snet.net> scrawled the following:
...but if you have a good, low 1st gear and a good starter, you can
start it in gear, then use synchronized shifting without the clutch,
and finally come to a stop out of gear. I'd driven probably a dozen
cars with broken clutches onto my lift at work before I retired from
it early. And I learned how to do synch shifting in my old Corvair.
That was a blast, matching rpm with gear change to it didn't grind, it
just slid right in with 2 ounces of force.
I also found out that if you pop a tranny into 2nd before reverse, it
stops the gear cluster from spinning and prevents the gear clash
usually associated with that procedure in many models of vehicle. I
never did like that --== THUNK ==-- most people get going into rev.
--
In order that people may be happy in their work, these three things are
needed: They must be fit for it. They must not do too much of it. And
they must have a sense of success in it.
-- John Ruskin, Pre-Raphaelitism, 1850
Larry Jaques
<Win...@bigbrother.net> scrawled the following:
>On 2/9/2010 7:58 AM, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
>> Winston<Win...@bigbrother.net> writes:
>
>(...)
>
>>> I bumped it once and there was flashing lights and a ticking sound!
>>>
>>> Scared the crap out of me.
>>
>> Ah, so you're this guy?
>> http://www.bbspot.com/News/2003/11/bmw.html
>
>I wish.
>That guy found out how to make his headlights less bright.
>
>Prolly knows how to turn off his horn, too.
Don't you love beemer drivers? They're almost always Libtards, too.
Yeah, bmws are the only "sports car" I've seen (two!) upside down on a
2% uphill grade with a sweeping 10% right curve, the tiny hill going
southbound on I-5 in California's Sandy Eggo County, leading up to Del
Mar Heights Road. I mean, _W_T_F_, _O_?
Pete Keillor
Don, I found with my 14 yr old Suburban with 177000 miles that the
dealers lost interest after about 10 years. I then found a good
mechanic, and forgot about dealers. It's still a good car, plus it
hauls big stuff easily, like the small pallet jack I picked up
yesterday. The only thing is my driving miles have gone up by at
least 2X since I moved to Texas. We live out of town, and there are
just more places I'd like to go.
Pete Keillor
Larry Jaques
<dfor...@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> scrawled the following:
>On Tue, 09 Feb 2010 19:04:43 -0600, F. George McDuffee
I second that. If anything, all letters to the gov't should be
requests for downsizing it by about 75%.
>We had two Ford Contours for many years. We liked them a lot, but
>they started getting flaky after 15 years but way under 100K miles,
>and the last experience with the Ford dealer was expensive and
>displayed incompetence,contempt for customer or both. OK, time to
>replace them when dealers were hungry, sales tax on vehicles was
>deductable in 2009, and Ford had degraded to treating us as easy prey.
>We bought two Toyotas, a Corolla and a Camry. Both are on the recall
>list.
I saved nearly $15k (local F-150 stickershock) by moving to a more
dependable Toyota truck. I'd always been a Ford man, but they didn't
look long for this Earth, and I sure didn't think a basic shortbed,
shortcab pickup was worth $40k. Everything about the Tundra is a step
up IMHO.
>I am not a bit dismayed by this. I don't care if the book value dips
>for a while due to hysterical reaction to a recall for a minor problem
>having very low probability of affecting us and high probability of
>being fixed by the recall. I don't regard cars as investments, but as
>long-term consumables.
Perzactly.
>The longer the term the better. Toyota has an
>excellent track record in that regard. Far better than the 80K miles
>we got from our Fords before they became more costly than their worth
>to keep running.
Yeah, a $1,825 4OD tranny overhaul at 90k for me.
>We really did like those Contours, but we don't
>miss them a bit because we like the Toyotas even better.
Look at the Consumer Reports auto defect histories for Toyota vs. the
Big 3 (bailouts) and you'll know you don't want a Big 3 vehicle.
>A measure of a company is whether or not they have problems and how
>often, but perhaps a more relevant measure of a company is how
>responsibly and responsively they deal with problems when they occur.
>We had recalls on our Ford Contours too, no big deal. Something to do
>with the catalytic converters and possible fires, don't recall the
>details.
Ford wouldn't pay for an entire repaint of my '90 F-150 when they had
a primer problem back in the early '90s. They did a tape test. If they
stuck a piece of tape on the paint in any given spot and removing the
tape pulled paint off, they repainted free. Only the horizontal
surfaces of my truck met that challenge. The dealer wanted $800 to
paint the sides and doors, so you can imagine the words I had for them
just before they painted the hood, roof and bedside tops. It was the
very first thing to ruin Ford for me. Effem!
Tundras are built here, so I'm still buying American. I have no doubt
that Toyota will provide a safe upgrade for the pedal problem.
Yooper
>
> I saved nearly $15k (local F-150 stickershock) by moving to a more
> dependable Toyota truck. I'd always been a Ford man, but they didn't
> look long for this Earth, and I sure didn't think a basic shortbed,
> shortcab pickup was worth $40k. Everything about the Tundra is a step up
> IMHO.
I had the opposite experience. I bought two Tundra's as work trucks for
my logging business. They were each to carry a 250 gallon tank of diesel
fuel in the bed. Found out right away these trucks will NOT hold up on
logging roads that I make with a skidder or crawler. They were pretty
much constantly falling apart. Lots of driveline problems and twisted
frames. These are not work trucks no matter what they advertise.
Fortunately for me Toyota took them back. Never again.
Pretty sad, I really liked the trucks looks and interior. But in my
opinion the only thing they are good for is to carry a piece of plywood
on the weekend.
wmbjk...@citlink.net
<gmcd...@mcduffee-associates.us> wrote:
>On Tue, 09 Feb 2010 17:19:43 -0700, wmbjk...@citlink.net
>wrote:
><snip>
>>>The specific difficulty to which I am referring is the series of
>>>Toyota vehicle management problems, known to include
>>>acceleration, braking, and now [power] steering. All of these
>>>seem to be related to the "drive by wire" computerized vehicle
>>>control system.
>>
>>Your entire approach is based on logical fallacies, but I doubt that
>>anything will dissuade you from fanning the flames of hysteria. My
>>only hope is that you own a Toyota, and get to see your resale value
>>bottom out at about the same time we get confirmation that the whole
>>thing was much ado about nothing. IOW, Audi Psychosis Part Deux.
><snip>
>Thank you for posting your well thought out and tactful critique
>of my letter.
I've already posted a ton on the subject. As I said, your approach is
based on belief rather than facts, and your letter makes it clear to
me that you're immune to reason on the subject. So there's no point in
repeating myself any more than I already have. In fact, the more that
sensible people try to humor you by pretending that you have a
rational argument that needs countering, the more it will validate
your beliefs. Toyota has to play that game, but I don't.
>Please be sure to post a copy of your letter to
>the newsgroups so the readers can use it as a model in place of
>my poor effort when writing to Congress.
Here's some sincere advice - ask someone qualified like Huntress to go
over your letter with you point by point. That person will tell you
that you're piling logical fallacies on top of unsupportable
assumptions. The whole idea of basing legislative active on
owner-reported insurance statistics is ludicrous.
>For the record my vehicles are
>1990 Ford T'bird 300k miles
>1978 Mercury Monarch I-block 6 100k miles
>2000 Honda Helix scooter 25k miles.
No doubt you think, as the majority apparently does, that the cost of
mollycoddling your beliefs will somehow be borne by others. But the
fact is, that this sort of money-is-no-object leave-no-stone-unturned
self-righteous recrimination, is exactly the kind of thing we can't
afford to be doing, now or ever. Toyota's early estimate of their
costs for this nonsense is 2 billion. It will probably be far more as
the lawsuits drag on for a decade. Those costs will be paid by
consumers, as will the larger and more lamentable cost of encouraging
people to one-up each others' hysterical hand-wringing without any
aforethought.
Wayne
wmbjk...@citlink.net
I'm not concerned about resale value on my own behalf either. But all
of us should be concerned about how these needless distractions
encourage more of the same. By now *everybody* should know that the
most famous accident at the heart of the hysteria was basically a
low-risk fluke, and the kind of thing that a functioning society must
be willing to accept. If it had been a fully-investigated aviation
accident, it would have been blamed on pilot error (failure to shift
into neutral), with the mat bunch-up being a contributing factor that
was at least somewhat predicable, and therefore also the pilot's
responsibility to watch out for. Obviously car drivers are held to a
ridiculously-low standard, but this common idea that we can just get
in a 2-3 ton machine and go, is self-destructive in multiple ways. The
lesson we should have learned from the cop's case is that it's time
for driver's to take more responsibility, not less.
Wayne
Larry Jaques
<thum...@yahoo.com> scrawled the following:
>On Wed, 10 Feb 2010 06:19:46 -0800, Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>>
>> I saved nearly $15k (local F-150 stickershock) by moving to a more
>> dependable Toyota truck. I'd always been a Ford man, but they didn't
>> look long for this Earth, and I sure didn't think a basic shortbed,
>> shortcab pickup was worth $40k. Everything about the Tundra is a step up
>> IMHO.
>
> I had the opposite experience. I bought two Tundra's as work trucks for
>my logging business. They were each to carry a 250 gallon tank of diesel
You wanted to haul 1 ton of fuel around in a "half ton" truck? Your
expectations exceeded your sanity, Yoopy. Rated payload on 4x4s is
only 1,620lbs, and you're adding 2k+ with the tank and pumps? C'mon!
>fuel in the bed. Found out right away these trucks will NOT hold up on
>logging roads that I make with a skidder or crawler. They were pretty
>much constantly falling apart. Lots of driveline problems and twisted
>frames. These are not work trucks no matter what they advertise.
Perhaps not in your terms.
> Fortunately for me Toyota took them back. Never again.
> Pretty sad, I really liked the trucks looks and interior. But in my
>opinion the only thing they are good for is to carry a piece of plywood
>on the weekend.
I've carried 1,500 pounds of compost a dozen times, and probably the
same amount of 1/4- gravel probably half a dozen times, plus hauling 5
yards of junk on a trailer behind it. I've never had a problem. I'll
bet most users wouldn't, either. You really do need to watch your
loads, dude. I wouldn't try that with anything less than a one ton
truck, but a 2 or 5 ton would be even better.
De-rate an LCF (Isuzu NPRs are real worker bees) for a smoother ride
and carry 1,000 gallons of fuel for about $10k more than a Tundra,
$15k less than a dealerized 1T.
But don't you be dissin' my truck just because it won't repeatedly
stand up to an overload condition, Bubba. And I curse both the
salesmen who sold those Tundras to you (unless you misled them about
he weight and road conditions) and the ads which led you to believe
that you could get away with such abuse. These are PICKUPS.
Better yet, go buy a Chebby pickup (half ton) and see how you fare
there.
F. George McDuffee
<gmcd...@mcduffee-associates.us> wrote:
<snip>
>The specific difficulty to which I am referring is the series of
>Toyota vehicle management problems, known to include
>acceleration, braking, and now [power] steering. All of these
>seem to be related to the "drive by wire" computerized vehicle
>control system.
===============
FYI
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/uk_news/magazine/8510228.stm
<snip>
11:49 GMT, Thursday, 11 February 2010
How computers took over our cars
Toyota's recall of its Prius model this week wasn't down to a
mechanical fault but a software glitch. Increasingly, computers
are in control of our cars, says Paul Horrell, and that is
changing our relationship with the open road.
In this week's recall of the Toyota Prius, there is no faulty
mechanical component. All that's necessary is a quick software
update to recalibrate the electrically generated pedal "feel" in
its braking system. Which just goes to show how deeply computer
control is embedded in today's cars.
<snip>
wmbjk...@citlink.net
<gmcd...@mcduffee-associates.us> wrote:
That's just expected tweaking, and it in no way supports your belief
in the drive-by-wire accelerator boogeyman.
It's the news media that's out of control, but they're only producing
what their customers want to hear. Here's an exception
http://www.edmunds.com/help/about/press/161506/article.html. Note
their comments about the reliability of the statistics.
How does such a low complaint rate fit with the death-traps witch
hunt? Tune in to your favorite talking head to ... hear him ignore the
facts.
Wayne
F. George McDuffee
wrote:
<snip>
>That's just expected tweaking, and it in no way supports your belief
>in the drive-by-wire accelerator boogeyman.
>
>It's the news media that's out of control, but they're only producing
>what their customers want to hear. Here's an exception
>http://www.edmunds.com/help/about/press/161506/article.html. Note
>their comments about the reliability of the statistics.
>
>How does such a low complaint rate fit with the death-traps witch
>hunt? Tune in to your favorite talking head to ... hear him ignore the
>facts.
>
>Wayne
More FYI
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=atXvi2msqPOM
<snip>
Feb. 12 (Bloomberg) -- Former regulators hired by Toyota Motor
Corp. helped end at least four U.S. investigations of unintended
acceleration by company vehicles in the last decade, warding off
possible recalls, court and government records show.
<snip>
===========
FWIW -- even if you don't drive/own a Toyota this should be of
interest as you and yours are sharing the roads with these
vehicles, even if only as a pedestrian in a crosswalk.
Wes
>> I sure am getting tired of snow!
>>
>
>
>Five more weeks, Don.
>according to Phil the Groundhog.
Someone should have been waiting for puxatony phil with a .220 swift.
Wes
cavelamb
It looks like we got eight inches yesterday and last night!
--
Richard Lamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/
wmbjk...@citlink.net
Sensible pedestrians will prioritize risks, and rank several things
more likely than getting hit by a runaway Toyota. Such as being struck
by lightning, or getting a Dear John letter from a supermodel.
Intentionally or not, you've become the worst kind of silly
single-issue fearmonger. You're willing to put your unsupportable
belief that there simply *must* be accelerator electronic gremlins
that need smoking out, ahead of the damage that inevitably comes from
millions of fraidy-cats demanding protection from everything, no
matter how low the actual risk. From your own cite: "Toyota�s shares
have dropped 17 percent, wiping out $27.7 billion in market
capitalization". A nice reward for their achievement of having the
lowest complaint rate of all the major auto brands.
The least intelligent of the nitwits are now claiming that the whole
recall thing is really a plot to get cars into the shop so that the
dealers can sneakily do re-flashes. They don't bother to explain how
something like that could be kept a secret. Anyway, be sure to look
for those stories and post them here.
Wayne
Don Foreman
And orange hat. Ya gotta wear an orange hat when shooting groundhogs
in PA. But not on Sunday, can't shoot whistlepigs on Sunday in PA.
Oh, and no semiauto rifles either. Gotta about be a Philadelphia
lawyer to shoot groundhogs in PA.
Jim Stewart
I'm embarrassed to say that I don't know whether
or not you are serious...
Don Foreman
wrote:
I'm not making up the rules. Check the laws and regulations governing
hunting in PA. I have a friend there who likes to shoot groundhogs.
He has horses so groundhog burrows can be a hazard.
cavelamb
>>> And orange hat. Ya gotta wear an orange hat when shooting groundhogs
>>> in PA. But not on Sunday, can't shoot whistlepigs on Sunday in PA.
>>> Oh, and no semiauto rifles either. Gotta about be a Philadelphia
>>> lawyer to shoot groundhogs in PA.
>> I'm embarrassed to say that I don't know whether
>> or not you are serious...
>
> I'm not making up the rules. Check the laws and regulations governing
> hunting in PA. I have a friend there who likes to shoot groundhogs.
> He has horses so groundhog burrows can be a hazard.
I believe there is still a law on the books that prohibits motor cars
from passing thru an intersection without a man swinging a red flag.
Larry Jaques
<gmcd...@mcduffee-associates.us> scrawled the following:
Where's the beef, boys and girls? Investigation One involved 11
incidents and 5 crashes. Investigation Two involved only two incidents
and only 1 crash. "Toyota said dealer representatives investigated 59
of 100 vehicles whose owners complained. " Let's see, 8 years, 2.3
million vehicles, throttle used a minimum of 100 times every day for
each vehicle, yet only 100 complaints. Gee, let's take 'em all off the
road. It's FOR THE CHILDREN! Hayseuss Crisco, people. Get some
context.
In Investigation Three, NHTSA decided that Toyota had done enough in
warranty-replacement of 3,546 bodies. Once returned, their team found
incidences of corrosion, where the vehicles had been driven through
water, and modified the TB to add a drain hose. NHTSA thought that was
good enough, too.
In Investigation Four, there were 32 incidences in Tacoma pickups and
NHTSA didn't think it worthy of pursuit. Chances are good that many of
the investigators for the NHTSA had been there through all 4 searches
and could have added 2 + 2 if there were something hinky there, but
they didn't.
Tell me something, boys and girls: If you worked at the NHTSA and your
friend wanted you to cover up a fault which could kill someone, would
you do it for friendship? For money? I didn't think so. So why would
the current team do anything stupid like that? This is the very same
thing that happened to Ford with the Pinto. Media-driven BULLSHIT.
I drive one of these "death traps" (as wang called 'em) and have never
felt the slightest glitch in the pedal since buying it new.
I'm in no hurry to go to the dealer to have it "fixed", either.
Granted, unintended acceleration is a scary thought, but look how
INfrequently it happens in several billion road miles over nearly a
decade. It's a fluke, not a major issue. Heads out, please!
P.S: Unka George, why are you quoting the wang troll?
Larry Jaques
<dfor...@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> scrawled the following:
>On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 05:20:32 -0500, Wes <clu...@lycos.com> wrote:
You guys have it all wrong. If it'll be winter for 6 more weeks,
he'll have stuck his nose out and stayed in his burrow. To get him,
flame all the snow from around his hole and wait until he comes out.
He will have brought on Spring and you can how nail him BUT GOOD.
John Husvar
Wes <clu...@lycos.com> wrote:
Darned old whistlepig doesn't tell you this: If he doesn't see his
shadow, it'll only be a month and a half more Winter.
wmbjk...@citlink.net
Holy crap! Larry is right about something!
>I drive one of these "death traps" (as wang called 'em)
Thank TMT for that quote, weasel.
> and have never
>felt the slightest glitch in the pedal since buying it new.
>I'm in no hurry to go to the dealer to have it "fixed", either.
>Granted, unintended acceleration is a scary thought,
For others perhaps.
> but look how
>INfrequently it happens in several billion road miles over nearly a
>decade. It's a fluke, not a major issue. Heads out, please!
>
>P.S: Unka George, why are you quoting ?
You quoted "the wang troll" as well, you bone-headed hypocrite. I
didn't realize that you and I are on the same team, which normally
might cause me to question my opinion. Can you feel the burn? Oh wait,
it's not clear that you've figured out who's on your side ... as if
you haven't read every last word of my comments in this thread. LOL
Wayne
Don Foreman
wrote:
I don't think they enforce that one, but they do enforce the hunting
rules and regs.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Up here six more weeks of winter IS an early spring!!!!!
Ed Huntress
"Don Foreman" <dfor...@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> wrote in message
news:9hgdn5lvqgqlcaacr...@4ax.com...
Pennsylvania has been a pioneer in hunter safety for decades. They have a
lot of hunters, and they used to have a lot of injuries from rifle turkey
hunting. I don't know what the rules are now but they successfully knocked
those way down.
I got my Safe Hunter badge there in 1961, which was required for anyone
under age 16, and many older people went through it. It was a six-week
course run jointly between the state and the NRA, and it involved shooting
on a range, under supervision, every week.
Their hunting regulations are very sensible, if sometimes conservative.
Their hunting culture has *always* opposed semiautomatics, even when I
hunted there as a kid. They were allowed with a lot of restrictions. It's a
bolt-action, lever-action, pump-action, and single-shot culture. As I've
mentioned before, when I was a high school student there the opening day of
deer season was a school holiday. Even as an out-of-state hunter I was able
to carry a centerfire revolver for hunting small game. A .32 H&R Magnum
makes a hell of a mess out of a squirrel, however. <g>
--
Ed Huntress
Martin H. Eastburn
and they were hauled into jail for using amplified sound! Their Dallas
lawyer got them off easily. So we heard at the time.
Bible belt issue.
Martin
Don Foreman
Roger that! Six weeks from groundhog day is about when we expect the
blizzard that usually accompanies the state basketball tournament.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
We generally get our worst storm of the year around St Patty's day or
the Ides of March.
Don Foreman
>>>>
>>>>Darned old whistlepig doesn't tell you this: If he doesn't see his
>>>>shadow, it'll only be a month and a half more Winter.
>>>
>>>
>>>Up here six more weeks of winter IS an early spring!!!!!
>>
>>Roger that! Six weeks from groundhog day is about when we expect the
>>blizzard that usually accompanies the state basketball tournament.
>
>We generally get our worst storm of the year around St Patty's day or
>the Ides of March.
Y'all down south have a bit earlier spring than we do in the
Northland. <G>