which .45 cal?
kfvo...@gmail.com
recommend? Good quality of course. My nephew is starting his research
into them and wants some suggestions.
Thanhks
Karl
Tom Gardner
<kfvo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:7a6f0efe-e79c-4937...@n10g2000prj.googlegroups.com...
What's the budget? Spend that...and just a bit more. What's the
application? Does he reload? In general, you get what you pay for, unless
you get ripped-off or fall into a spectacular deal. You probably won't get
away for less than $600 used. BUT, 1911s are the best platform ever! .45
ACP costs me less than 3 cents each to reload, more accurate than I am,
low-pressure, forgiving cartridge, gentile recoil and just "feels" right.
The only downside is the low-capacity magazines.
Gunner Asch
Ive several "1911s" that hold 15 rounds
ParaOrd P14s
14 in the mag, one up the spout.
http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg59-e.htm
Mine are early "gunsmith only" "kits" that I stuck various 1911 slides
on and then tuned and tweaked. My favorite has an AMT Hardballer
Stainless slide and slide frame fit was done with a can of valve
grinding compound over a week in front of the tv.
Its smooth...and reliable. Its my "home" gun. Well..one of them
<G>
Gunner
--
"Confiscating wealth from those who have earned it, inherited it,
or got lucky is never going to help 'the poor.' Poverty isn't
caused by some people having more money than others, just as obesity
isn't caused by McDonald's serving super-sized orders of French fries
Poverty, like obesity, is caused by the life choices that dictate
results." - John Tucci,
Ignoramus30154
Do you know that a typical 9mm bullet has 90% of the energy of a .45
ACP bullet?
i
Hawke
It's also much easier to shoot accurately, faster, and almost all 9mms
hold a lot of rounds these days. The Springfield XDs are real nice. You
can't go wrong with one of them. The design is a lot more modern too and
they are nearly indestructible. If you're set on a 1911 pattern gun
Springfield is about as good as they come too.
Hawke
Gunner Asch
But only Half the stopping power. Or slightly less.
Energy ratings are not the entire composition of a good bullet/cartridge
design for use on human beings.
Which is why few police departments carry the 9 anymore.
Califbill
news:VqmdnU4lt5Ks5U7R...@giganews.com...
Reply:
Was just at the store and the guy said he likes the Rock Island. About $600
new depending on the model.
http://www.google.com/search?q=rock+island+45&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7ADRA_en
Steve Lusardi
I'm hoping this doesn't drift into a 9mm vs. 45 debate. It would be off topic. I own both and they both have their strong points.
Personally, I prefer the 45 for a multitude of reasons. However, the best are hand tuned customs, but they are expensive. In my
opinion, none of the out-of-box 45's are acceptable to me. So, I would be looking for a core gun to customize and in that light, a
colt model 70 or earlier is the best, but I am a pretty good gunsmith and I have the tools to build a custom. Even doing all the
work yourself, it will be hard to be under $2,000 all in. Below are some considerations.
1) Standard chamber pressures with the standard barrel 12K CUP.
2) Safe pressures with a custom barrel 30K+ CUP.
3) Typical muzzle velocity increase between a 5" and 6" barrel, without a change in pressure 50 FPS
4) Two inch grouping at 50 meters is easily achievable.
5) Best bullet Hensley & Gibbs # 68 200 gr, SWC in Linotype.
6) My favorite load with the above bullet, custom barrel is 11.5 gr of Blue Dot.
Steve
<kfvo...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:7a6f0efe-e79c-4937...@n10g2000prj.googlegroups.com...
kfvo...@gmail.com
Thanks for the suggestion and info. It will be a while before he can
get one but I suspect he'll end up with .45 and 9mm.
Speaking of different calibers what do you guys like in a .22?
Karl
Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
news:7a6f0efe-e79c-4937...@n10g2000prj.googlegroups.com:
I'm right partial to the Taurus Judge series. The long Colt round has a
lot of wallop.
LLoyd
Snag
I like my Ruger P90 . DA/SA , decock , ambi safety , and I have small hands
. I've always been partial to Rugers , as they tend to fit my small hands
better than most .
--
Snag
Learning keeps
you young !
Larry Jaques
wrote:
>On Thu, 04 Nov 2010 23:06:47 -0500, Ignoramus30154
><ignoram...@NOSPAM.30154.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>Do you know that a typical 9mm bullet has 90% of the energy of a .45
>>ACP bullet?
>>
>>i
>But only Half the stopping power. Or slightly less.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/849728/posts 20% different
http://www.alpharubicon.com/leo/calloadgoshin.htm 4-12% different
That said, in a fight, my druthers: a 1911 over my Keltec P-11.
>Energy ratings are not the entire composition of a good bullet/cartridge
>design for use on human beings.
>
>Which is why few police departments carry the 9 anymore.
What does it matter, the way cops (can't) aim?
--
Experience is a good teacher, but she send in terrific bills.
-- Minna Thomas Antrim
Bob La Londe
For what? A Kimber is about as good as it gets, but a Norinco is reliable
to just have around in case you need one and it costs less. If I was doing
competition I'ld probably get a Colt Gold Cup and then have a little work
done. Start with matching a barrel and block and some trigger polishing
then go from there.
John Doe
> What brand/model reasonably priced Colt .45 style pistol would
> you recommend?
And what the fuck does this have to do with metalworking?
--
> Good quality of course. My nephew is starting his research
> into them and wants some suggestions.
> Thanhks
> Karl
>
>
see also Google Groups
> Path: news.astraweb.com!border5.newsrouter.astraweb.com!news.glorb.com!news2.glorb.com!postnews.google.com!n10g2000prj.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
> From: "kfvorwerk gmail.com" <kfvorwerk gmail.com>
> Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
> Subject: which .45 cal?
> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 18:15:14 -0700 (PDT)
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Libtardopia Lost
"Ignoramus30154" <ignoram...@NOSPAM.30154.invalid> wrote in message
news:iq-dnePdIM9KH07R...@giganews.com...
And, my 9 stings like a hornet! After 50 rds of factory-type loads, my hand
is numb. I can shoot my 1911 all day long. For me any load that puts a
mark on the paper has enough energy. Although I've seen 50BMG pistols!
Libtardopia Lost
"Karl Townsend" <karltown...@embarqmail.com> wrote in message
news:8jp7d6pd81eqev69i...@4ax.com...
> Stopping power is why I prefer the .308 and it holds more bullets than
> either the 45 or the 9MM.
>
> There, that should start a pissing match.
>
> Karl
And, your cost/bad-guy? <crickets>
Tom Gardner
<kfvo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ecd93174-9aee-46e9...@42g2000prt.googlegroups.com...
******************************
You're a TROUBLEMAKER!
You can't go wrong with a Ruger Mark-(anything) I can literally write my
name with mine. (pun intended)
Tom Gardner
"John Doe" <jd...@usenetlove.invalid> wrote in message
news:4cd42e20$0$1865$c3e8da3$9f40...@news.astraweb.com...
> "kfvorwerk gmail.com" <kfvorwerk gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> What brand/model reasonably priced Colt .45 style pistol would
>> you recommend?
>
> And what the fuck does this have to do with metalworking?
> --
Lots! I've done more metalworking for my shooting than any other hobby, all
sorts of reloading press improvements, gun mods, target related projects,
casting related projects, die mods, other accessories, etc. Steel,
Aluminum, Copper, Brass, Lead and Titanium...is THAT enough metal?
Now, what were you saying?
Don Foreman
<karltown...@embarqmail.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 04 Nov 2010 23:53:01 -0700, Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 05 Nov 2010 07:40:37 GMT, very...@nocando.com (Pinstripe
>>Sniper) wrote:
>>
>>>Ignoramus30154 <ignoram...@NOSPAM.30154.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Do you know that a typical 9mm bullet has 90% of the energy of a .45
>>>>ACP bullet?
>>>>i
>>>
>>>Oh no! - it's like somebody started an HP vs TI calculator debate
>>><starts popping popcorn>
>>>
>>>PsS
>>>
>>
>>ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>
>>Oh very well done! Bravo!!!
>...
>
>My dad likes his 45 1911. I like my Glock 17. We took both to the
>range a couple years ago and I was WAY more accurate with the Glock.
>I'm not the expert, was this the pistol or the round?
It's the shooter. The 1911 is capable of excellent accuracy, but it
takes a lot of practice. Some say that's part of why the US Army
abandoned the 1911 in favor of the 9mmp Beretta.
The only handgun I shoot better than my 1911 is a .357 revolver with
6" barrel. I shoot that one and the 1911 better than I shoot any of
our .22's, probably because I shoot them more often. Mary prefers the
.22's and she shoots them well. She has no problem with recoil, but
she doesn't like the flash of the larger calibers.
Don Foreman
If by "Colt .45" you mean a 1911 design, Springfield is a good bet.
They offer several models from the basic "government" model up thru
match-grade models. Their rep for standing behind their products is
excellent. A dealer I know favors Springfield and Para, though he
carries several other brands as well. I own a Springfield 1911 and
I'm very satisfied with it. I also have a Colt. The Springfield is
definitely the better gun. The only handgun I shoot more accurately
than the Springfield 1911 is a S&W 626 revolver in .357 magnum with 6"
barrel.
Kimber & Taurus have offerings, but you're SOL if you have a problem.
If you really want a Kimber or Taurus, he'll sell it to you but
reluctantly.
Para makes excellent handguns and their customer support is exemplary,
but they're a bit pricey. I own a Para LDA 9mmp and am very pleased
with it.
There are several "cheap" 1911's on the market, none of which I'd care
to own. They're poorly-made, not accurate and of questionable
reliability.
Rich Grise
> "John Doe" <jd...@usenetlove.invalid> wrote in message
>>
>>> What brand/model reasonably priced Colt .45 style pistol would
>>> you recommend?
>>
>> And what the fuck does this have to do with metalworking?
>
> all sorts of reloading press improvements, gun mods, target related
> projects,
> casting related projects, die mods, other accessories, etc. Steel,
> Aluminum, Copper, Brass, Lead and Titanium...is THAT enough metal?
>
> Now, what were you saying?
With a nym like "John Doe," this one is probably best left ignored. ;-)
Cheers!
Rich
Gunner Asch
<lja...@invalid.diversify.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 04 Nov 2010 23:52:31 -0700, Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 04 Nov 2010 23:06:47 -0500, Ignoramus30154
>><ignoram...@NOSPAM.30154.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>Do you know that a typical 9mm bullet has 90% of the energy of a .45
>>>ACP bullet?
>>>
>>>i
>>But only Half the stopping power. Or slightly less.
>
>http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/849728/posts 20% different
>http://www.alpharubicon.com/leo/calloadgoshin.htm 4-12% different
>That said, in a fight, my druthers: a 1911 over my Keltec P-11.
>
>
>>Energy ratings are not the entire composition of a good bullet/cartridge
>>design for use on human beings.
>>
>>Which is why few police departments carry the 9 anymore.
>
>What does it matter, the way cops (can't) aim?
Some cops cant, its true. But lots of cops can aim well enough to hit
their opponents.
http://social.jrank.org/pages/1333/Law-Enforcement-Police-Shootings.html
On the other hand...they occasionally shoot when they shouldnt...
http://dogblog.dogster.com/2010/10/04/police-shoot-arthritic-11-year-old-lab-in-her-own-backyard/
(Note its Oakland, California...so trigger happy cops are expected)
Gunner Asch
wrote:
A Gold Cup has had all that stuff done to it already.
Unfortunatley..they have been tuned to shoot light, low pressure target
ammo and shooting normal ammo can harm them..beat them up badly.
If you get a Gold Cup..replace all the springs with Wolf combat springs,
first off.
RBnDFW
> What brand/model reasonably priced Colt .45 style pistol would you
> recommend? Good quality of course. My nephew is starting his research
> into them and wants some suggestions.
Any of the Phillipine guns from Armscor or SAM work fine. I like the
High Standard best for the understated markings.
A step up for about $500 would be the Remington R1.
Also, same money, Springfield GI.
All of these are A1 military configuration, so don't have the upgrades
like beavertail, ambi safety or enlarged ejection port.
If you want the upgrades, buy one of those that already have them.
American Classic is one.
Taurus can be found under $500 if you shop.
Of course, this is just the first one. Always is. <G>
--
RBnDFW
> Karl
I have a bunch of .22 pistols.
My favorite is a 1911 Ciener conversion slide on a built-up bare
receiver. Nice to have a cheaper-shooting .22 just like your "real" gun.
But it's a bit big for plinking. For a small .22 pistol my favorite is
the Llama, which is a miniature 1911. I also like the NAA Minimaster
and Black Widow.
Then there are the Ruger Single Sixes. I just bought a stainless one
to go with the blued one. Everyone should own one, before all else.
Back to 1911 .22s - Today you can buy a GSG 1911 for under $300.
Reportedly a much better pistol than the Chiappa version.
Wes
>Stopping power is why I prefer the .308 and it holds more bullets than
>either the 45 or the 9MM.
>
>There, that should start a pissing match.
You conceal carry that in leather or kydex?
Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller
Wes
>45
>ACP costs me less than 3 cents each to reload
What? I'd like to find 2 cent primers again and 6 grains of most powders put you at
another 2 cents. Not to mention the cost of lead if you cast.
Wes
Wes
>I like my Ruger P90 . DA/SA , decock , ambi safety , and I have small hands
>. I've always been partial to Rugers , as they tend to fit my small hands
>better than most .
That isn't a little gun. It is my bedside firearm. A point and click solution if someone
intrudes uninvited. I never cared for the DA/SA transition and bought a S&W M&P 40
compact for carry. After adding the Apex sear and striker block parts, it is a fine
firearm.
Wes
Ignoramus7928
My 9mm is super nice and I can shoot it all day long. The longest I
did was 1.5 hours or so.
i
Gunner Asch
Did the guy ever go down?
Buddy Beavers
"Hawke" <davesm...@digitalpath.net> wrote in message
news:ib00e3$kdh$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
> On 11/4/2010 9:06 PM, Ignoramus30154 wrote:
>> On 2010-11-05, Tom Gardner<at@at> wrote:
>>>
>>> <kfvo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:7a6f0efe-e79c-4937...@n10g2000prj.googlegroups.com...
>>>> What brand/model reasonably priced Colt .45 style pistol would you
>>>> recommend? Good quality of course. My nephew is starting his research
>>>> into them and wants some suggestions.
>>>> Thanhks
>>>> Karl
>>>
>>> What's the budget? Spend that...and just a bit more. What's the
>>> application? Does he reload? In general, you get what you pay for,
>>> unless
>>> you get ripped-off or fall into a spectacular deal. You probably won't
>>> get
>>> away for less than $600 used. BUT, 1911s are the best platform ever!
>>> .45
>>> ACP costs me less than 3 cents each to reload, more accurate than I am,
>>> low-pressure, forgiving cartridge, gentile recoil and just "feels"
>>> right.
>>> The only downside is the low-capacity magazines.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Do you know that a typical 9mm bullet has 90% of the energy of a .45
>> ACP bullet?
>>
>> i
>
> It's also much easier to shoot accurately, faster, and almost all 9mms
> hold a lot of rounds these days. The Springfield XDs are real nice. You
> can't go wrong with one of them. The design is a lot more modern too and
> they are nearly indestructible. If you're set on a 1911 pattern gun
> Springfield is about as good as they come too.
>
I love my XD-9, but now that the XD now comes in 45 ACP, you can have the
best of both worlds. No brainer.
Larry Jaques
<ClutchAtL...@Gmail.com> wrote:
>Karl Townsend <karltown...@embarqmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Stopping power is why I prefer the .308 and it holds more bullets than
>>either the 45 or the 9MM.
>>
>>There, that should start a pissing match.
>
>You conceal carry that in leather or kydex?
Neither. It's a GAT. Speaking of which, how's your little .22 gat
coming?
Snag
Mine resides next to the bed too ... my daily carry is a Davis Ind.
two-hole derringer in .38 spl . I keep it in the pocket where most men carry
their wallet - surprise !!
As far as the DA/SA , I like the fact that I can carry with one in the
chamber and the safety off , and don't have to worry about cocking for that
first round . I've never felt comfortable carrying one "cocked and locked" .
Martin Eastburn
You know - slam metal into metal.
Kinda neat seeing a round dot of lead powder where a bullet vaporized.
Martin
Tom Gardner
"Wes" <ClutchAtL...@Gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ti0Bo.381966$iV7.3...@en-nntp-15.dc1.easynews.com...
Wideners had Wolf primers on sale a while back at $19/k in 5k lots...I
bought 20k and picked up 16 lbs of IMR 700-x for $50 from a gunshop going
out of business. My load for .45 is 3.5gr. 6gr would damage my 1911. Even
at full price of $110/8lb that's 56,000 grains or 16,000 rounds or $0.006875
worth of powder per round. With free lead, electricity and labor, my actual
cost per round is $0.025875 ...which is less than 3 cents each. Did you
think I was pulling your leg?
And, Wolf primers are just fine! Not a single problem even in my light
hitting revolvers.
Wideners has them at $19/k NOW!
http://www.wideners.com/itemview.cfm?dir=278|284|737
IMR 700-X 8 pound caddy at $107 but they are out of stock GREAT POWDER!
http://www.wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=8453&dir=278|283|310
I shoot about 1k/month so my equipment has paid for itself many times
compared to factory.
DoN. Nichols
[ ... ]
> Speaking of different calibers what do you guys like in a .22?
> Karl
> ******************************
>
> You're a TROUBLEMAKER!
>
> You can't go wrong with a Ruger Mark-(anything) I can literally write my
> name with mine. (pun intended)
I agree with the Ruger. I have the Mark-I (tapered long barrel
target model my first *new* firearm) and the Mark-II bull barrel with
muzzle brake.
I've not tried the Mark-III, however. I don't like the
requirement that the magazine be in the weapon to allow lowering the
hammer.
Aside from that -- I also like the accuracy and muzzle velocity
from my old S&W .22 Jet -- but it does tend to bind up with the tapered
cartridges moving back against the body, so fast emptying of the
cylinder is not a sure thing.
Enjoy,
DoN.
--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: <BPdnic...@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
Michael A. Terrell
Gunner Asch wrote:
>
> On Fri, 05 Nov 2010 07:41:31 -0700, Larry Jaques
> <lja...@invalid.diversify.com> wrote:
>
> >On Thu, 04 Nov 2010 23:52:31 -0700, Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com>
> >wrote:
> >
> >>On Thu, 04 Nov 2010 23:06:47 -0500, Ignoramus30154
> >><ignoram...@NOSPAM.30154.invalid> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>Do you know that a typical 9mm bullet has 90% of the energy of a .45
> >>>ACP bullet?
> >>>
> >>>i
> >>But only Half the stopping power. Or slightly less.
> >
> >http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/849728/posts 20% different
> >http://www.alpharubicon.com/leo/calloadgoshin.htm 4-12% different
> >That said, in a fight, my druthers: a 1911 over my Keltec P-11.
> >
> >
> >>Energy ratings are not the entire composition of a good bullet/cartridge
> >>design for use on human beings.
> >>
> >>Which is why few police departments carry the 9 anymore.
> >
> >What does it matter, the way cops (can't) aim?
>
> Some cops cant, its true. But lots of cops can aim well enough to hit
> their opponents.
>
> http://social.jrank.org/pages/1333/Law-Enforcement-Police-Shootings.html
>
> On the other hand...they occasionally shoot when they shouldnt...
>
> http://dogblog.dogster.com/2010/10/04/police-shoot-arthritic-11-year-old-lab-in-her-own-backyard/
>
> (Note its Oakland, California...so trigger happy cops are expected)
Some can still hit a target after being stabbed several times:
<http://www.wftv.com/news/25645292/detail.html>
--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.
Hawke
> On Thu, 4 Nov 2010 18:15:14 -0700 (PDT), "kfvo...@gmail.com"
> <kfvo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> What brand/model reasonably priced Colt .45 style pistol would you
>> recommend? Good quality of course. My nephew is starting his research
>> into them and wants some suggestions.
>> Thanhks
>> Karl
>
> If by "Colt .45" you mean a 1911 design, Springfield is a good bet.
> They offer several models from the basic "government" model up thru
> match-grade models. Their rep for standing behind their products is
> excellent. A dealer I know favors Springfield and Para, though he
> carries several other brands as well. I own a Springfield 1911 and
> I'm very satisfied with it. I also have a Colt. The Springfield is
> definitely the better gun. The only handgun I shoot more accurately
> than the Springfield 1911 is a S&W 626 revolver in .357 magnum with 6"
> barrel.
>
> If you really want a Kimber or Taurus, he'll sell it to you but
> reluctantly.
>
> Para makes excellent handguns and their customer support is exemplary,
> but they're a bit pricey. I own a Para LDA 9mmp and am very pleased
> with it.
>
> There are several "cheap" 1911's on the market, none of which I'd care
> to own. They're poorly-made, not accurate and of questionable
> reliability.
Sometimes that is true but not always. I have a friend that has a
Charles Daly 1911 he bought new for 350.00 and it had all the bells and
whistles that the "good" guns have. While I will admit that cosmetically
it's not so great as far as accuracy and reliability are concerned it's
as good as most 1800 dollar 1911s I've seen. That Daly shoots great and
it never seems to jam no matter what it's fed. By the way, it's made in
the Philippines. So don't think that you have to spend a lot of money to
get a good 1911. They're out there. I have another friend that bought a
used Kimber Classic for about 500. and it's a really nice gun.
Personally, if I was looking for a 1911 I'd be looking for a nice
condition used gun. So many people buy guns and then let them sit in
their safe that a brand name 1911 that you can buy used is just as good
as a new one. Because most people buy the things but they rarely use them.
Hawke
Wes
>>You conceal carry that in leather or kydex?
>
>Neither. It's a GAT. Speaking of which, how's your little .22 gat
>coming?
It is right where it was when the snow melted this spring. I suspect in a couple weeks
when I'm snow bound again, I'll turn on the heat in my machine room and resume working on
it.
Wes
Paul K. Dickman
"DoN. Nichols" <BPdnic...@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
news:slrnid9l74.9c...@Katana.d-and-d.com...
> On 2010-11-05, Tom Gardner <at@at> wrote:
>>
>><kfvo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> [ ... ]
>
>> Speaking of different calibers what do you guys like in a .22?
>> Karl
>> ******************************
>>
>> You're a TROUBLEMAKER!
>>
>> You can't go wrong with a Ruger Mark-(anything) I can literally write my
>> name with mine. (pun intended)
>
> I agree with the Ruger. I have the Mark-I (tapered long barrel
> target model my first *new* firearm) and the Mark-II bull barrel with
> muzzle brake.
>
> I've not tried the Mark-III, however. I don't like the
> requirement that the magazine be in the weapon to allow lowering the
> hammer.
>
> Aside from that -- I also like the accuracy and muzzle velocity
> from my old S&W .22 Jet -- but it does tend to bind up with the tapered
> cartridges moving back against the body, so fast emptying of the
> cylinder is not a sure thing.
>
> Enjoy,
> DoN.
>
I also agree with the Ruger recommendation. I have a markII bull barrel that
I stuck a Leupold scope on 25 years ago. That is a fun gun to shoot.
The MkIII appears a classic case of "new and improved", all the the changes
seem to be almost as good as useless.
They have a lock on the safety that seem to consist of a setscrew in the
frame.
They have a magazine interlock safety that requires you to stick the empty
magazine in and out of the pistol twice to disassemble the gun.
And they have a chambered round indicator. I guess that mob hitmen were
complaining that they couldn't tell if a round was chambered when they tried
to cap someone in the back of the head.
Paul K. Dickman