Lubrication/ Coolant system.
Bob La Londe
Taig CNC mill. I've got a couple jobs I would like to do, but the
simulations tell me I am looking at 20-35 hours run time. Not the kind of
thing I can just sit there and supervise and keep squirting cutting oil on
the job to keep the cutter going.
Most of the demos and videos I have seen on the web are using water based
coolants on their Taig Mills, but Taig Tools specifically says not to use
water based coolants as the spindle may corrode.
It seems like a light cutting oil might be in order. Since my big projects
are with aluminum I had considered WD40 or kersone as some folks have
reported very good results using these on aluminum, but I am considering
that it is flammable. Most of the pumps and small coolant systems
specifically say not to use flammable materials.
I considered going with a regular cutting oil, but most of them have an SUS
over 100 and most of the affordable pumps say not to pump anything over
about 50. I'm at a loss here.
I had about decided to build my own pressurized system utilizing a pressure
tank and a recovery tank with some valves so I could refill by pressurizing
the recovery tank for a short period. I basically got told that was a huge
waste f time and there were cheap pumps I could use to do the job. Ok... so
where do I find a cheap pump that can push oil or one that is rated for semi
flammable liquids and continuous duty?
Gunner Asch
wrote:
http://its.fvtc.edu/machshop1/coolant/cutfluids.htm
The current Democratic party has lost its ideological basis for
existence.
- It is NOT fiscally responsible.
- It is NOT ethically honorable.
- It has started wars based on lies.
- It does not support the well-being of americans - only billionaires.
- It has suppresed constitutional guaranteed liberties.
- It has foisted a liar as president upon America.
- It has violated US national sovereignty in trade treaties.
- It has refused to enforce the national borders.
...It no longer has valid reasons to exist.
Lorad474
Ned Simmons
wrote:
>
>It seems like a light cutting oil might be in order. Since my big projects
>are with aluminum I had considered WD40 or kersone as some folks have
>reported very good results using these on aluminum, but I am considering
>that it is flammable. Most of the pumps and small coolant systems
>specifically say not to use flammable materials.
Parts washer pumps are intended for use with flammable liquids. I
think I paid around $60 for one at Grainger.
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200006774_200006774?cm_sp=Xsells-_-Manual-_-Product%20Page
Before you use something as flammable as kero or WD-40, try a
proprietary aluminum tapping fluid like Alumtap.
http://www.tapfree.com/alumtap.html
--
Ned Simmons
Pete C.
Stuff like kero is flammable, but it takes the right conditions to get
it to burn, and cutting oil is flammable too. I expect you'd do fine
with one of the heavy cutting oils thinned with deodorized kero (lamp
oil) to get ot to a reasonable pumping viscosity.
Bob La Londe
news:ve6bl5t3ilfghcret...@4ax.com...
That a very good summary page. I've read about a hundred or so like it in
this quest of mine. That's one of the better ones.
Bob La Londe
news:7jgbl5p45l2mh178p...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 19 Jan 2010 01:12:31 -0700, "Bob La Londe" <no...@none.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>It seems like a light cutting oil might be in order. Since my big
>>projects
>>are with aluminum I had considered WD40 or kersone as some folks have
>>reported very good results using these on aluminum, but I am considering
>>that it is flammable. Most of the pumps and small coolant systems
>>specifically say not to use flammable materials.
>
> Parts washer pumps are intended for use with flammable liquids. I
> think I paid around $60 for one at Grainger.
> http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200006774_200006774?cm_sp=Xsells-_-Manual-_-Product%20Page
That is an excellent idea. I've got a small parts washer and had considered
performing a pumpectomy on it. Buying a pump to setup in a proper basin and
enclosure makes a lot more sense. I have run kerosone in parts washers for
cleaning since I used my dads rebuilding my first engine 20+ years ago with
no problems. I always had a stick handy to knock the lid prop out, but
never had to use it.
> Before you use something as flammable as kero or WD-40, try a
> proprietary aluminum tapping fluid like Alumtap.
> http://www.tapfree.com/alumtap.html
I'll check it out.
Bob La Londe
news:4b55d40b$0$22772$ec3e...@unlimited.usenetmonster.com...
Thanks. I may do that as a last resort.
Steve Lusardi
It is very hard to beat diesel as a lubricant and cooling agent for aluminum. Yes it is flammable, but not readily and it is
cheap. For a pump, I use a 24V DC military truck fuel pump, but any fuel pump will work fine. Further more, if you use the pump
with a pulse width modulation driver, you can control the motor speed very accurately and hence the flow rate. These PDM drivers
are available cheap on eBay, all you will then need is a 24V power source of about 5 amps.
Steve
"Bob La Londe" <no...@none.com> wrote in message news:SRd5n.4$_9...@newsfe02.iad...
Bob La Londe
news:hj4r3k$ljo$02$1...@news.t-online.com...
> Bob,
> It is very hard to beat diesel as a lubricant and cooling agent for
> aluminum. Yes it is flammable, but not readily and it is cheap. For a
> pump, I use a 24V DC military truck fuel pump, but any fuel pump will work
> fine. Further more, if you use the pump with a pulse width modulation
> driver, you can control the motor speed very accurately and hence the flow
> rate. These PDM drivers are available cheap on eBay, all you will then
> need is a 24V power source of about 5 amps.
> Steve
Diesel is one of my options being considered. I actually keep a bit of it
on hand for my tractor. Power supplies are not a problem for me. 6/12/24
VDC are stock in trade for the things I do for my day job.
I was considering an electric racing fuel pump as one of my options, but was
concerned that a gas pump might not handle heavier liquids. I was also
concerned about longevity when run for a couple days without a break. Of
course PWM would make perfect sense to prolong the life of the motor along
with pressure and flow rate.
Jesse
> "Steve Lusardi" <stevenos...@lusardi.de> wrote in message
I have no idea what I'm talking about but would automatic transmission
fluid work? I know I use that in an old Snap-on valve grinder. IDK,
Maybe it's too thick. It doesn't catch fire too easily.
Ignoramus8727
headache.
i
Bob La Londe
news:Hb-dnZ2Az8XLZsjW...@giganews.com...
> I personally could not use diesel as lubricant. Smelling it gives me a
> headache.
Good point.
Bob La Londe
"Jesse" <jr...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:89af82c3-ce67-477f...@b10g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
>> I was considering an electric racing fuel pump as one of my options, but
>> was
>> concerned that a gas pump might not handle heavier liquids. I was also
>> concerned about longevity when run for a couple days without a break. Of
>> course PWM would make perfect sense to prolong the life of the motor
>> along
>> with pressure and flow rate.
>
> I have no idea what I'm talking about but would automatic transmission
> fluid work? I know I use that in an old Snap-on valve grinder. IDK,
> Maybe it's too thick. It doesn't catch fire too easily.
Maybe, I know a couple guys who use ATF on the bearings in their fishing
reels.
Ed Huntress
Kerosene (and diesel fuel, I suppose) is a traditional lubricant for
aluminum machining. I don't know how it's supposed to work; probably just as
a free-flowing semi lubricant that somehow improves finish. It's been widely
remarked in the machining literature for at least 70 years that it will
improve finish but that it doesn't have much effect on cutting forces. I've
used it for turning on a small lathe; I don't like using it, and I skip it
if I can.
It is flammable, of course. I've never heard of it starting a fire in a
machine tool, but the applications I've read about, and used, are either
brush-on or drip lubrication on a lathe. I don't recall hearing about it
being used for milling but I'm sure it is. BTW, I *have* seen the results of
EDM fires that were using kerosene for dielectric. It's not pretty. <g>
I'd be very wary of using it in any kind of high-flow system. I think you're
asking for trouble. If you need it to blast chips away, that much pressure
and volume with fuel would, I think, turn your machine into a firebomb
waiting for a light.
The commercial solutions are mist lubricants, or a flood of water-miscible
("water-soluble") oils, or synthetics. But the good ones aren't really
cheap, although, volume-for-volume, they're probably not much different from
diesel. You don't need a rich mix for aluminum.
So one answer is that if you're looking for something with volume and
pressure to clear chips, a good and safe solution is not kero or diesel. If
you just want to improve finish and chip-clearing isn't a problem, a kero
drip probably would do it. My own system is really sophisticated: an old
coffee can with a piece of soft copper tubing soldered into the bottom, with
a petcock. It hangs by a wire from my floor joists and I bend the copper
tubing to suit the job. <g> But that's for an old, 10" SB lathe.
You'll find water-soluble oils that their manufacturers swear up and down
have strong anti-rust properties. In general, you have to maintain them to
keep up the anti-rust properties.
BTW, since I don't really like using kero, I use straight lard oil on my
lathe when I want a good finish in aluminum. It's not generally recommended,
but I can't tell the difference in finish versus kero. But it's not for use
in a pressure coolant/lubricant system.
Good luck!
--
Ed Huntress
Pete C.
That was why I suggested cutting oil thinned with deodorized Kero.
Gunner Asch
wrote:
It works quite well for machining. In fact..most Swiss Screw Machines
use it or a slight variation .
Gunner
nob...@nowhere.org
<jr...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
Th' hell it doesn't. Ever seen a car fire resulting from a
transmission fluid leak onto the exhaust? Those are the cars that
burn down to the ground.
Here's a video of some stupid kids playing with fire and transmission
fluid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxxSI8PTU6c
Google "transmission fluid fire" and there's plenty more to watch.
Newb
Steve Lusardi
My system will work very well for flood cooling, but not as a mist system. If chip clearance is an issue then the total loss,
portable KOOL-MIST systems are the ticket with proper water soluble oil.
Steve
"Bob La Londe" <nos...@nospam.no> wrote in message news:hj4t6o$cfi$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Mark Rand
>
>Th' hell it doesn't. Ever seen a car fire resulting from a
>transmission fluid leak onto the exhaust? Those are the cars that
>burn down to the ground.
>
>Here's a video of some stupid kids playing with fire and transmission
>fluid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxxSI8PTU6c
>
>Google "transmission fluid fire" and there's plenty more to watch.
>
>Newb
Conversely, I had a car burn to the ground 15 years ago from crank case blowby
into the air filter housing dropping on the exhaust manifold. That's when I
learned why Ford had redesigned the air filter housing four times in three
years :-(
Mark Rand
RTFM
Jesse
>
> - Show quoted text -
Well ofcourse it will burn if you put it on a fire. Who would think
that it wouldn't? What do you think kero or diesel is going to do if
you put it on a fire? I would think it would be safer than kero or
diesel as far as its flammability goes.
nob...@nowhere.org
<jr...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
Here's what you said: " It doesn't catch fire too easily." Anybody
who watched that video can clearly see that it does burn easily. And
it burns more like gasoline than diesel. There's a reason deisel
engines are extremely high compression engines compared to gas.
>I would think it would be safer than kero or
>diesel as far as its flammability goes.
In other words, you don't know the answer to that either. The fact is
it's not. There's a reason products are made for specific tasks.
Transmission fluid *may* work somewhat for doing things it's not
formulated to be used. Call me a fool but I use products that are job
specific.
If you decide to experiment, please have someone make a video... from
a safe distance.
Newb
Ed Huntress
<nob...@nowhere.org> wrote in message
news:sueel5hgqnv0tkqr2...@4ax.com...
ATF will ignite on a hot surface at around the same temperatures as other
oils -- on the order of 1,000 deg. F. Practically all of the fluids under
the hood of a car will burn that way -- including antifreeze.
If it forms a mist, all bets are off. The flash point doesn't matter in that
circumstance. Here are some interesting tests that were run by Garrett
Engineers:
http://garrett-engineers.com/photography-for-adjusters/35-outside-articles/79-auto-fluids-that-burn
--
Ed Huntress
Wild_Bill
point slightly higher than 400 degrees F, doesn't it?
The white smoke that's created when certain oils/fuels contact hot surfaces,
will essentially explode from a spark.
Fuel oil, charcoal lighter fluid, solvents and other petroleum products
create the white smoke.
This reaction doesn't apply specifically to machining, but I'd be concerned
about using cutting lubricants that produce smoke on conact with hot
surfaces.
--
WB
.........
metalworking projects
www.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html
"Ed Huntress" <hunt...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:4b574413$0$21623$607e...@cv.net...
Ed Huntress
"Wild_Bill" <wb_wi...@XSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:CJS5n.100058$H15....@en-nntp-02.dc1.easynews.com...
> The chart numbers at the source below indicate that ATF will ignite at a
> point slightly higher than 400 degrees F, doesn't it?
Yeah, that's what the chart says. They tested it at 1,000 deg, which is
where I got that temperature. I should have looked at the chart.
Notice that ATF will autoignite at temperatures a little lower than those
for gasoline, but that the flash point is much higher. In other words, it
isn't very vulnerable to ignition from a spark, but it will ignite on a hot
manifold just as easily as gasoline will.
>
> The white smoke that's created when certain oils/fuels contact hot
> surfaces, will essentially explode from a spark.
> Fuel oil, charcoal lighter fluid, solvents and other petroleum products
> create the white smoke.
>
> This reaction doesn't apply specifically to machining, but I'd be
> concerned about using cutting lubricants that produce smoke on conact with
> hot surfaces.
Well, straight lard oil smokes a lot when you machine with it. But that
looks like real smoke, rather than condensed vapor. 'Don't know for sure.
--
Ed Huntress
Gunner Asch
<wb_wi...@XSPAMyahoo.com> wrote:
>The chart numbers at the source below indicate that ATF will ignite at a
>point slightly higher than 400 degrees F, doesn't it?
>
>The white smoke that's created when certain oils/fuels contact hot surfaces,
>will essentially explode from a spark.
>Fuel oil, charcoal lighter fluid, solvents and other petroleum products
>create the white smoke.
>
>This reaction doesn't apply specifically to machining, but I'd be concerned
>about using cutting lubricants that produce smoke on conact with hot
>surfaces.
There are hundreds of thousands of machine shops (well..there were) and
the only reason some few of them have gone from oil to water based or
water soulable cutting fluids is the Governmental risks of disposing of
oil based cutting fluids. Environmental concerns.
Period. End program. Full stop.
Shrug