Changing a flat tire.... with a sledgehammer??

[Existential Angst]

Had to sledgehammer the flat tire/rim off the hub, it had rusted on so
hard -- which is strange, bec the tires had been rotated a month or two
ago.

I've had to kick rims off hubs before, but never sledgehammer it off -- and
I'm not talking taps, I'm talking full swings. I almost gave up!! The wood
I used to protect the rim edge was destroyed.
Had this flat occurred anywhere but right outside my shop, it woulda needed
towing.
It was a full 1/2 hour workout -- I needed a nappypoo afterwards.

Should I grease the rim/hub contact area? A number of people have told me
not to. Heat issues? A high-temp grease?
Maybe fabricate some kind of shim? Alum? Nylon?

How about greasing lug nuts? I need to use a pipe on the lug wrench, and
sometimes I think the stud is going to break off with the g-d nut. Mebbe
anti-seize compound, or loctite?
--
EA

[Nicholas]

Some problems here.
Some people put some antiseize grease where hub meets wheel. Only a
small amount to keep it from fouling brakes.

And some folks put same on lugs. But my car says 100 ft-lbs DRY
torque on lug nuts. No mention of correct torque on lubed lugs. If I
lube lugs, then at 100 ft-lbs I'm going to SNAP a lug off, or put so
much tension on the bolt that it won't hold in a high speed turn
without failing.

I personally, just guessing, would de-rate from 100 ft-lbs to about 75
ft-lbs if using antiseize on wheel lugs. But that's just me.
_Definitely_ use antiseize on rim-hub contact area.

Lg

[hls]

"Existential Angst" <fit...@optonline.net> wrote in message >

Should I grease the rim/hub contact area? A number of people have told me
> not to. Heat issues? A high-temp grease?
> Maybe fabricate some kind of shim? Alum? Nylon?
>
> How about greasing lug nuts? I need to use a pipe on the lug wrench, and
> sometimes I think the stud is going to break off with the g-d nut. Mebbe
> anti-seize compound, or loctite?
> --
> EA

If you had the time to sandblast or beadblast those rims,
prime and paint them properly, you could probably avoid
a good bit of rust damage.

I dont see anything wrong with putting some grease or
antiseize at the rim/hub junction, but it would be short lived,
particularly if the corrosive environment where you live is
as bad as it sounds.

We been over the antiseize issue with studs and lugnuts a lot
of times. The car companies tell you to do the toqueing
DRY. You can clean the threads with a wire brush or a
thread chaser if you like.

And you CAN apply some antiseize to keep the rust from
welding the stud and nut together, but you certainly have to
de-rate the torque specification. I ran a Google on this a few
years ago, and as I remember it you need to reduce the
torque by 15-20%. It doesnt make any difference whether
you use persistent grease or antiseize, they both reduce the
friction and you should reduce the torque.

I have done this is in icy areas where rust is a problem and
never had a problem with nuts loosening, but that is the
decision you have to make, or not.

[Gunner Asch]

I always use antiseize on my lug nuts and tighten them down by hand.
Ive never found a need to torgue them to any set range. And they come
off reasonably well also.

I simply tighten them to..."ugh!" and get back on the road.
Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

[dcl...@sensis.com]

BTDT.

Never had it happen until I bought a car with aluminum hub-centered
rims, where the fit of the rim on the center round part of the hub had
to be a tight fit.

Antiseize on the mating surfaces turned the trick, after a thorough
cleaning.

I did have to spend quite awhile chipping a layer of very hard AL
oxidation from the rim (on the flat and the centering-ring part) to
get it to fit properly and without a noticeable (shaking at speed)
runout.

Dave

[Leon Fisk]

On Mon, 24 Oct 2011 12:08:28 -0400

"Existential Angst" <fit...@optonline.net> wrote:

<snip>

>Should I grease the rim/hub contact area? A number of people have told me
>not to. Heat issues? A high-temp grease?
>Maybe fabricate some kind of shim? Alum? Nylon?
>
>How about greasing lug nuts? I need to use a pipe on the lug wrench, and
>sometimes I think the stud is going to break off with the g-d nut. Mebbe
>anti-seize compound, or loctite?

I've used wheel-bearing grease for the rim/hub contact area and
whatever is in my general purpose oil can (usually ~30wt motor oil) for
the lug nuts for many years. My truck is a Chevy 1982 K10 (bought it
new) and I've never had any nuts come loose and a rim has never stuck
on the hub. I always use a 4-way lug wrench to finish torquing down the
lug nuts. Learned my lessons with impact wrenches, nuts coming loose,
nuts too tight, stuck rims... when I was still a teenager. Don't want
to repeat any of them nowadays, except maybe being that old again,
provided I can take along my accumulated knowledge ;-)

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

[Kristian Ukkonen]

I've greased nuts and rims for decades after similar experiences..
Although I managed to get the wheel off by putting it under pull
with a puller (like for pulling bearings off, between axle end
and steel rim holes) and then whacking it with a hammer using
wood between.. Though it was OPEL (Olen Paska, En Liiku = I'm Shit,
I won't Move). I use a general grease I happen to have,
Mobil MP I think..

[N8N]

That doesn't work on some cars. IME German ones like BMW and Porsche
that tend to have all the parts and especially the unsprung ones
engineered to be as strong as they need to be but no heavier. But it
seems to be spreading to all newer vehicles. On vehicles like that
uneven torquing can cause undesirable vibrations and mimic warped
brake rotors.

On something old and American with steel wheels, your method is
probably fine.

nate

[dsi1]

On 10/24/2011 9:13 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:

> I always use antiseize on my lug nuts and tighten them down by hand.
> Ive never found a need to torgue them to any set range. And they come
> off reasonably well also.

I just lean on the socket/breaker bar to tighten the nuts. My friend
always insists on using a torque wrench which is a drag. It's better to
develop a feel for torque for most nuts/bolts. Not all of them, of
course. :-)

>
> I simply tighten them to..."ugh!" and get back on the road.

I like to tighten nuts to "eeaw!"

[Tegger]

"Existential Angst" <fit...@optonline.net> wrote in

news:4ea58e08$0$28380$607e...@cv.net:

> Had to sledgehammer the flat tire/rim off the hub, it had rusted on so
> hard -- which is strange, bec the tires had been rotated a month or
> two ago.

But the rust was not sanded off. And that's the problem.

Each time the wheel is removed, you need to use 50-grit emery cloth to
sand off the rust where the wheel contacts the hub. If you do not, the
rust will build up and have an amazing tendency to bind firmly with the
wheel and make it the devil's own work to get the wheel off again.

>
> I've had to kick rims off hubs before, but never sledgehammer it off
> -- and I'm not talking taps, I'm talking full swings. I almost gave
> up!! The wood I used to protect the rim edge was destroyed.
> Had this flat occurred anywhere but right outside my shop, it woulda
> needed towing.
> It was a full 1/2 hour workout -- I needed a nappypoo afterwards.
>
> Should I grease the rim/hub contact area?

Yes. But first sand the rust off!

> A number of people have told me not to.

Go ahead, no worries. Excess grease get flung outwards and ends up on
the inner face of the rim, eventually covered with dust. It goes nowhere
near the brakes.

> Heat issues? A high-temp grease?
> Maybe fabricate some kind of shim? Alum? Nylon?

No. Just use anything you've got handy. Anti-seize, Crisco, bacon
grease, lard, anything. The very best is Dow-Corning MolyKote M-77. It's
expensive, but is astonishing stuff.

>
> How about greasing lug nuts? I need to use a pipe on the lug wrench,
> and sometimes I think the stud is going to break off with the g-d nut.
> Mebbe anti-seize compound, or loctite?

No lube is needed, just proper torque.

If the nuts were difficult to bust loose, they were overtightened to
begin with. Use a torque wrench, follow the automaker's instructions,
and those nuts will come loose as easy as pie. Even in the Rust Belt.




--
Tegger

[Gunner Asch]

On Mon, 24 Oct 2011 13:51:09 -0700 (PDT), N8N <njn...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

Akk I drive is American Iron with steel wheels. Trucks mostly but I do
own a van and a Saturn.

Ill keep tightening to 'Uhh!" specs

[Stormin Mormon]

Years ago, I had that problem with my Dodge Van. Rear wheels
would stick on. My answer to get a very small grinding wheel
for my drill. Maybe inch diameter. I jacked up the back, one
wheel only. Chock the fronts. Took the wheel off (heat and
beat). Started up the motor, and with great nervousness, I
put the shift in reverse. Only one hub spun, but it spun
good.

Used the small grinding wheel in the drill, and made the hub
smaller. Turn off the engine, and the hub stopped turning.
Jack up the other side, and do that one too. Grind the hub
down.

The wheels went on on and off, OK, afterwards, that way.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.


"Existential Angst" <fit...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:4ea58e08$0$28380$607e...@cv.net...

[Stormin Mormon]

Derating the lug torque is OK. I usually use a HF "clicker"
at 100 ft pounds. And I do grease or neversieze the lug
threads, and the facing end of the lug.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"Nicholas" <Lawrence...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:hbaba7h89nnomsts3...@4ax.com...

[Stormin Mormon]

Regional dialects, of course.

I tighten too "oof".

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"dsi1" <ds...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote in message
news:j84jjq$hmb$1...@dont-email.me...

[jim beam]

On 10/24/2011 01:59 PM, dsi1 wrote:
> On 10/24/2011 9:13 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
>
>> I always use antiseize on my lug nuts and tighten them down by hand.
>> Ive never found a need to torgue them to any set range. And they come
>> off reasonably well also.
>
> I just lean on the socket/breaker bar to tighten the nuts. My friend
> always insists on using a torque wrench which is a drag. It's better to
> develop a feel for torque for most nuts/bolts. Not all of them, of
> course. :-)

good luck on that delusion of adequacy. if you've ever tested your
torques using this method vs the torque wrench, you'll find two things:

1. you're way off - seldom does even an experienced mechanic get within
20% of actual.

2. they're entirely inconsistent nut to nut.

even a $35 torque wrench from woolmort can give you better results than
that.

all this may be less relevant on a 50's chevy pickup, but it's an issue
on many modern cars - see n8n's response.

>
>>
>> I simply tighten them to..."ugh!" and get back on the road.
>
> I like to tighten nuts to "eeaw!"
>
>> Gunner
>>
>> One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
>> in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
>> and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
>> not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
>> Gunner Asch
>

--
nomina rutrum rutrum

[jim beam]

"mimic warped brake rotors" - indeed. it's a serious issue on some
cars. civics and integras are crazy sensitive to it.

>
> On something old and American with steel wheels, your method is
> probably fine.
>
> nate

--
nomina rutrum rutrum

[jim beam]

On 10/24/2011 12:39 PM, Leon Fisk wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Oct 2011 12:08:28 -0400
> "Existential Angst"<fit...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>> Should I grease the rim/hub contact area? A number of people have told me
>> not to. Heat issues? A high-temp grease?
>> Maybe fabricate some kind of shim? Alum? Nylon?
>>
>> How about greasing lug nuts? I need to use a pipe on the lug wrench, and
>> sometimes I think the stud is going to break off with the g-d nut. Mebbe
>> anti-seize compound, or loctite?
>
> I've used wheel-bearing grease for the rim/hub contact area and
> whatever is in my general purpose oil can (usually ~30wt motor oil) for
> the lug nuts for many years.

flung oil/grease rots tire rubber. not a great idea. stick to
anti-seize. one tub will last hundreds of wheels.

> My truck is a Chevy 1982 K10 (bought it
> new) and I've never had any nuts come loose and a rim has never stuck
> on the hub. I always use a 4-way lug wrench to finish torquing down the
> lug nuts. Learned my lessons with impact wrenches, nuts coming loose,
> nuts too tight, stuck rims... when I was still a teenager. Don't want
> to repeat any of them nowadays, except maybe being that old again,
> provided I can take along my accumulated knowledge ;-)
>


--

nomina rutrum rutrum

[jim beam]

On 10/24/2011 09:08 AM, Existential Angst wrote:
> Had to sledgehammer the flat tire/rim off the hub, it had rusted on so
> hard -- which is strange, bec the tires had been rotated a month or two
> ago.
>
> I've had to kick rims off hubs before, but never sledgehammer it off -- and
> I'm not talking taps, I'm talking full swings. I almost gave up!! The wood
> I used to protect the rim edge was destroyed.
> Had this flat occurred anywhere but right outside my shop, it woulda needed
> towing.
> It was a full 1/2 hour workout -- I needed a nappypoo afterwards.

don't use a sledge - you can brinell wheel bearings. loosen the lugs
so there's a small gap between them and the wheel, then drive around the
block and brake hard. that'll do it. once loose, tighten again and
drive back home. it'll come off easy then.

>
> Should I grease the rim/hub contact area? A number of people have told me
> not to. Heat issues? A high-temp grease?
> Maybe fabricate some kind of shim? Alum? Nylon?

use anti-seize. grease/oil flings and gets on tire rubber and even
brake disks. bad idea.

>
> How about greasing lug nuts? I need to use a pipe on the lug wrench, and
> sometimes I think the stud is going to break off with the g-d nut. Mebbe
> anti-seize compound, or loctite?

anti-seize is fine. just don't over-do it. loctite is good too, though
/much/ more expensive. loctite has the benefit of not over-lubricating
the stud and upsetting the wheel torque settings while still sealing
against corrosion. with anti-seize on the lug threads, you may need to
back off factory torque spec a little.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

[jim beam]

On 10/24/2011 04:33 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
> Years ago, I had that problem with my Dodge Van. Rear wheels
> would stick on. My answer to get a very small grinding wheel
> for my drill. Maybe inch diameter. I jacked up the back, one
> wheel only. Chock the fronts. Took the wheel off (heat and
> beat). Started up the motor, and with great nervousness, I
> put the shift in reverse. Only one hub spun, but it spun
> good.
>
> Used the small grinding wheel in the drill, and made the hub
> smaller. Turn off the engine, and the hub stopped turning.
> Jack up the other side, and do that one too. Grind the hub
> down.
>
> The wheels went on on and off, OK, afterwards, that way.
>

grinding/abrasive wheels are a bad idea. they remove metal as well as
rust. taken to extremes [repeated operations over time], they can lead
to out-of-round conditions.

best to use a bladed scraper that doesn't remove metal and keeps
surfaces flat. or a wire brush/wheel if you insist on being motorized.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

[dsi1]

On 10/24/2011 2:10 PM, jim beam wrote:
> On 10/24/2011 01:59 PM, dsi1 wrote:
>> On 10/24/2011 9:13 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
>>
>>> I always use antiseize on my lug nuts and tighten them down by hand.
>>> Ive never found a need to torgue them to any set range. And they come
>>> off reasonably well also.
>>
>> I just lean on the socket/breaker bar to tighten the nuts. My friend
>> always insists on using a torque wrench which is a drag. It's better to
>> develop a feel for torque for most nuts/bolts. Not all of them, of
>> course. :-)
>
> good luck on that delusion of adequacy. if you've ever tested your
> torques using this method vs the torque wrench, you'll find two things:
>
> 1. you're way off - seldom does even an experienced mechanic get within
> 20% of actual.
>
> 2. they're entirely inconsistent nut to nut.
>
> even a $35 torque wrench from woolmort can give you better results than
> that.
>
> all this may be less relevant on a 50's chevy pickup, but it's an issue
> on many modern cars - see n8n's response.

My guess is that most mechanics don't use a torque wrench to tighten a
nut/bolt.

[hls]

"dsi1" <ds...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote in message news:j84va3$tn6>

> My guess is that most mechanics don't use a torque wrench to tighten a
> nut/bolt.
>

You may be right.. In this town, no professional mechanic uses a torque
wrench
on the lugs..

I do, but I am not running a business.. When I take my car for rotation, I
take my
own torque wrench, set at the appropriate level, and have them torque the
star
pattern.

They once asked me why.. And I told them that if you dont do this, you risk
having your rotors warp and may have to turn the discs.. They said "Nobody
in town does this. And I hope the people dont find out"

Whether you accept this or not, this is my way of doing things and I demand
that it be done. I never have to have rotors turned when I demand that
this
be followed.

[Lloyd E. Sponenburgh]

dsi1 <ds...@eternal-september.invalid> fired this volley in news:j84va3
$tn6$1...@dont-email.me:

> My guess is that most mechanics don't use a torque wrench to tighten a
> nut/bolt.
>

My guess is that some well-established tire centers not only use a torque
wrench, but have described tables of torque for each size/make vehicle
model.

I recently got tires for my wife's care at "Discount Tire". They pre-
torqued everything with a wimpy setting on an air impact wrench, then
carefully (I watched they guy set the wrench) dialed in a click-torquer,
and went around to every lug on every tire. I was watching, mostly out
of boredom, until they got around to that -- then I took notice. I asked
about it, and they have a book of settings per make/model/wheel size. A
good job, done right.

Don't assume until you ask.

LLoyd

[dsi1]

I've always seen tire guys using a torque wrench as a final tightening
in this town. Sometimes they're call a special wheel tightening monkey
to do the job. At least the supervisors got something to do.

[dsi1]

As I said, I don't use a torque wrench to tighten lug nuts. I'm not a
professional but I'm aware that the tire guys have a procedure to
tighten the wheel nuts.

OTOH, the reality is that most mechanics don't use a torque wrench to
tighten every fastener. Mr. Beam doesn't either. Obviously, sometimes
we'll use a torque wrench - I mean, we're not animals here.

[Lloyd E. Sponenburgh]

dsi1 <ds...@eternal-september.invalid> fired this volley in news:j85008$27s
$1...@dont-email.me:

> Sometimes they're call a special wheel tightening monkey
> to do the job. At least the supervisors got something to do.
>
>

In fact, that's what Discount Tire does. The tire monkey changes and pre-
torques everything. ANOTHER guy comes by with the torker, makes a show of
looking up the setting and setting the wrench, then does every lugnut.

It may be partly for 'show', but it's the right way to do it.

LLoyd

[dsi1]

My guess is that their insurance underwriters will insist that they do
it. It seems like a prudent thing to do.

[et...@whidbey.com]

On Mon, 24 Oct 2011 23:25:07 +0000 (UTC), Tegger <inv...@example.com>
wrote:

I wonder if painting the iron hub with galvanizing paint, the good
stuff, which is mostly zinc, would solve this problem? I think I'll
give it a try next time I need to remove the aluminum rims.
ERS

[jim beam]

don't make presumptions and present them as if you're qualified to speak
for me. thanks.

> Obviously, sometimes
> we'll use a torque wrench - I mean, we're not animals here.

--
nomina rutrum rutrum

[dsi1]

On 10/24/2011 2:57 PM, jim beam wrote:

> don't make presumptions and present them as if you're qualified to speak
> for me. thanks.
>

Practice what you preach. I also think that it's safe to presume that
you don't use a torque wrench for all fasteners. You're just a troll.

[jim beam]

On 10/24/2011 05:26 PM, hls wrote:
>
> "dsi1" <ds...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote in message news:j84va3$tn6>
>> My guess is that most mechanics don't use a torque wrench to tighten a
>> nut/bolt.
>>
>
>
> You may be right.. In this town, no professional mechanic uses a torque
> wrench
> on the lugs..

then in your town, there are no "professional mechanics" or "business
owners".

fact: if you're a "professional" and a customer gets involved in an
accident where a wheel falls off, you'd better be able to show up in
court with the paperwork showing you not only used a toque wrench, but
that you had the client sign a form acknowledging that they were
responsible for re-tightening after 100 miles. because if you didn't,
you're on the hook.

>
> I do, but I am not running a business.. When I take my car for rotation,
> I take my
> own torque wrench, set at the appropriate level, and have them torque
> the star
> pattern.
>
> They once asked me why.. And I told them that if you dont do this, you risk
> having your rotors warp and may have to turn the discs.. They said "Nobody
> in town does this. And I hope the people dont find out"

then they're idiots - don't take your car there.

>
> Whether you accept this or not, this is my way of doing things and I demand
> that it be done. I never have to have rotors turned when I demand that this
> be followed.

good. you're exactly right on that - stay with it.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

[jim beam]

damned right they will.

> It seems like a prudent thing to do.

--
nomina rutrum rutrum

[jim beam]

On 10/24/2011 06:07 PM, dsi1 wrote:
> On 10/24/2011 2:57 PM, jim beam wrote:
>
>> don't make presumptions and present them as if you're qualified to speak
>> for me. thanks.
>>
>
> Practice what you preach.

i do. thanks.

> I also think that it's safe to presume that
> you don't use a torque wrench for all fasteners.

you contradict yourself. see above.

> You're just a troll.

presumably...


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Mon, 24 Oct 2011 14:19:13 -1000, dsi1
<ds...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote:

>On 10/24/2011 2:10 PM, jim beam wrote:
>> On 10/24/2011 01:59 PM, dsi1 wrote:
>>> On 10/24/2011 9:13 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
>>>
>>>> I always use antiseize on my lug nuts and tighten them down by hand.
>>>> Ive never found a need to torgue them to any set range. And they come
>>>> off reasonably well also.
>>>
>>> I just lean on the socket/breaker bar to tighten the nuts. My friend
>>> always insists on using a torque wrench which is a drag. It's better to
>>> develop a feel for torque for most nuts/bolts. Not all of them, of
>>> course. :-)
>>
>> good luck on that delusion of adequacy. if you've ever tested your
>> torques using this method vs the torque wrench, you'll find two things:
>>
>> 1. you're way off - seldom does even an experienced mechanic get within
>> 20% of actual.
>>
>> 2. they're entirely inconsistent nut to nut.
>>
>> even a $35 torque wrench from woolmort can give you better results than
>> that.
>>
>> all this may be less relevant on a 50's chevy pickup, but it's an issue
>> on many modern cars - see n8n's response.
>
>My guess is that most mechanics don't use a torque wrench to tighten a
>nut/bolt.
>
>>

As a service manager I made sure my guys ALWAYS torqued wheel nuts
with a torque wrench. This became policy after a customer lost a
wheel.
If I went out with the torque wrench and found one mistorqued there
was trouble.

[dsi1]

I understand your point nor do I disagree with this policy.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

the studs and tapered nuts center the wheel on MOST cars. The
concentricity or roundness of the "stub" is really not all that
critical as they are not, generally, designed to be "hub-centric"

[jim beam]

you're right. i said "out-of-round" because "planar wobble" wasn't
working for me.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

[jim beam]

save them from themselves.

but sometimes i wonder - how many times does a tech need to have a
problem with "warped disks" on their own car before they see the light
on this stuff? it's not /just/ a matter of legal liability, it's a
matter of getting the stuff to work right.

>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I simply tighten them to..."ugh!" and get back on the road.
>>>>
>>>> I like to tighten nuts to "eeaw!"
>>>>
>>>>> Gunner
>>>>>
>>>>> One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
>>>>> in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
>>>>> and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
>>>>> not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
>>>>> Gunner Asch
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>

--
nomina rutrum rutrum

[Larry Jaques]

On Mon, 24 Oct 2011 14:19:13 -1000, dsi1
<ds...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote:

>On 10/24/2011 2:10 PM, jim beam wrote:
>> On 10/24/2011 01:59 PM, dsi1 wrote:
>>> On 10/24/2011 9:13 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
>>>
>>>> I always use antiseize on my lug nuts and tighten them down by hand.
>>>> Ive never found a need to torgue them to any set range. And they come
>>>> off reasonably well also.
>>>
>>> I just lean on the socket/breaker bar to tighten the nuts. My friend
>>> always insists on using a torque wrench which is a drag. It's better to
>>> develop a feel for torque for most nuts/bolts. Not all of them, of
>>> course. :-)
>>
>> good luck on that delusion of adequacy. if you've ever tested your
>> torques using this method vs the torque wrench, you'll find two things:
>>
>> 1. you're way off - seldom does even an experienced mechanic get within
>> 20% of actual.
>>
>> 2. they're entirely inconsistent nut to nut.
>>
>> even a $35 torque wrench from woolmort can give you better results than
>> that.
>>
>> all this may be less relevant on a 50's chevy pickup, but it's an issue
>> on many modern cars - see n8n's response.
>
>My guess is that most mechanics don't use a torque wrench to tighten a
>nut/bolt.

More do now than used to in my day (pre-1985) due to the thinner POS
disk brake rotors. They distort if the lugs aren't snugged the same.

In the olde dayes, we'd run them up with the impact, check the torque,
and set our guns (to find 90ft/lbs) so we'd always know they were the
same. It was probably good to +-10lbs.

--
It is characteristic of all deep human problems that they are
not to be approached without some humor and some bewilderment.
-- Freeman Dyson

[Michael A. Terrell]

cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>
> As a service manager I made sure my guys ALWAYS torqued wheel nuts
> with a torque wrench. This became policy after a customer lost a
> wheel.
> If I went out with the torque wrench and found one mistorqued there
> was trouble.

You were torqued off!!! ;-)


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

[pyotr filipivich]

Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com> on Mon, 24 Oct 2011 16:27:44 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

>
>>> I always use antiseize on my lug nuts and tighten them down by hand.
>>> Ive never found a need to torgue them to any set range.  And they come
>>> off reasonably well also.
>>>

>>> I simply tighten them to..."ugh!" and get back on the road.
>>

>>That doesn't work on some cars. IME German ones like BMW and Porsche
>>that tend to have all the parts and especially the unsprung ones
>>engineered to be as strong as they need to be but no heavier. But it
>>seems to be spreading to all newer vehicles. On vehicles like that
>>uneven torquing can cause undesirable vibrations and mimic warped
>>brake rotors.
>>

>>On something old and American with steel wheels, your method is
>>probably fine.
>>
>>nate
>

>Akk I drive is American Iron with steel wheels. Trucks mostly but I do
>own a van and a Saturn.
>
>Ill keep tightening to 'Uhh!" specs

I just tighten mine to the "skweek" point - that's a bit after
the "Ugh point" but just after the nut and wheel give of a little
"twennk" kind of sound. Using an "Iron Cross", I get good enough
leverage.
Haven't had a tire fall off. Although I came close back in '76,
but I was using a air wrench on that occasion.
--
pyotr
Go not to the Net for answers, for it will tell you Yes and no. And
you are a bloody fool, only an ignorant cretin would even ask the
question, forty two, 47, the second door, and how many blonde lawyers
does it take to change a lightbulb.

[Stormin Mormon]

What part of "grind the hub down" was hard to understand?
Yes, silly, I removed metal. That was the point of doing all
that work. And, it sure made the wheels easier to change.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.


"jim beam" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:j84v9f$ke2$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

On 10/24/2011 04:33 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
>
> Used the small grinding wheel in the drill, and made the
> hub
> smaller. Turn off the engine, and the hub stopped turning.
> Jack up the other side, and do that one too. Grind the hub
> down.
>
> The wheels went on on and off, OK, afterwards, that way.
>

grinding/abrasive wheels are a bad idea. they remove metal
as well as
rust.

--
nomina rutrum rutrum

[Stormin Mormon]

Using your logic, you'd not want to use a torque wrench.
Because it allows for consistent torque. Just like you tell
me not to use a grinding stone, because it removes metal.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.


"jim beam" <m...@privacy.net>

wrote in message news:j84uq2$j62$2...@speranza.aioe.org...

[Stormin Mormon]

Some do, especially for things like head gaskets.

In my case, I do try to remember to use a torque
wrench when I replace lug nuts. Some mechanics
use "torque limiting" gadgets and air wrench.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"dsi1" <ds...@eternal-september.invalid>
wrote in message news:j84va3$tn6$1...@dont-email.me...

[aemeijers]

On 10/24/2011 12:08 PM, Existential Angst wrote:
> Had to sledgehammer the flat tire/rim off the hub, it had rusted on so
> hard -- which is strange, bec the tires had been rotated a month or two
> ago.
>

> I've had to kick rims off hubs before, but never sledgehammer it off -- and
> I'm not talking taps, I'm talking full swings. I almost gave up!! The wood
> I used to protect the rim edge was destroyed.
> Had this flat occurred anywhere but right outside my shop, it woulda needed
> towing.
> It was a full 1/2 hour workout -- I needed a nappypoo afterwards.
>

> Should I grease the rim/hub contact area? A number of people have told me
> not to. Heat issues? A high-temp grease?

> Maybe fabricate some kind of shim? Alum? Nylon?
>

> How about greasing lug nuts? I need to use a pipe on the lug wrench, and
> sometimes I think the stud is going to break off with the g-d nut. Mebbe
> anti-seize compound, or loctite?

I've only had that happen on cars where inside of center hole of rim,
and the nipple-looking part of brake drum or hub, were a real tight fit,
almost like a taper drill bit. Yeah, I DO live in salt country, why?


As to cure- cleaning the mating surfaces, and a light coat of oil,
rubbed in, seemed to help. Same thing for lugs- if they are rusty or
totally dry, wire brush the crud out, and oil. If NUTS are rusty, spend
a few bucks and use fresh ones. If fixing up an old car or keeping a
beater usable, consider wire-wheeling and painting the backside of rim.
Rust is real good at fusing naked metal surfaces together. Mercedes used
to have repainting the wheel rims on the long-term-upkeep callout list.

Now that I'm old and tired, and have a little cashflow, I don't remove
wheel rims myself any more.

--
aem sends...

[Stormin Mormon]

My need for torque spec, is that I've had some moments when
I had a flat tire, and could not get the lugs to loosen.
With my lugs at 100 foot pounds, this has not been an issue.

I now carry a 25 inch breaker bar, and set of deep sockets.
I stop and help folks along the road, sometimes. Have used
the breaker bar a couple times, on others vehicles.

One friend's Buick station wagon. Had the tall "top hat"
style lug nuts. He liked the simple, old fashioned kind,
better. So, he went to the store and bought a whole set of
old fashioned lug nuts like you'd use on steel wheels. I had
tried that on earlier vehicle, Chevrolet Blazer, and told
him of my poor results. The aluminum wheels fuse to the
steel lugs, and refuse to come out. He ended up grinding the
lugs and studs away, because no wrench goes far enough down
to provide a grip. That took many, many hours of grinder
time, while laying in the driveway. The tall lugs, with
neversieze, work much better.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"hls" <h...@nospam.nix> wrote in message
news:eJGdnUDS2fK-nzvT...@giganews.com...

[Stormin Mormon]

One tire shop, I think I remember Dunn Tire.
Did have such a statement for me to sign. They
wanted me back after 50 miles or two days. This
was for the Blazer, wtih aluminum wheels. I asked
about that. Why for? They say that with aluminum
wheels, the lugs sometimes need to be retorqued.

I cheerfully signed the promise. Two days later,
I got out my torque wrench, and checked all the
lugs, using the correct torque, and alternating star
pattern of which lug got torqued next.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"jim beam" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message

news:j8524m$qmq$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

[Stormin Mormon]

The one time I lost a wheel. The day before,
I'd been working on the brakes. It started to
rain, so I put the wheel on, lugs finger tight.
And, I forgot to snug down the lugs. I've learned
that finger tight doesn't work. I've also learned
that in such a moment, I have to leave the lug
wrench on the drivers seat, to remind me to
tighten before driving any where.

I really don't like repair garages that air the lugs
on, and then I can't remove them.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

<cl...@snyder.on.ca> wrote in message
news:jm3ca7doh776ls7n0...@4ax.com...

[Stormin Mormon]

Double negatives are hard to understand.

Yeah, me, net nanny. I know. No one likes
a net nanny.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"dsi1" <ds...@eternal-september.invalid>
wrote in message news:j8533d$h7a$1...@dont-email.me...

[Stormin Mormon]

This was a 1980 Dodge van, I had ground
down the hub. From what I remember, the
studs and tapered lugs were what positioned
the wheel. The ground down hub didn't have
any affect on the operation, except to make
my life a lot easier.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

<cl...@snyder.on.ca> wrote in message
news:rt3ca75mqm0iv3tva...@4ax.com...

[DougC]

On 10/24/2011 11:08 AM, Existential Angst wrote:
> Had to sledgehammer the flat tire/rim off the hub, it had rusted on so
> hard -- which is strange, bec the tires had been rotated a month or two
> ago.
>
> I've had to kick rims off hubs before, but never sledgehammer it off -- and
> I'm not talking taps, I'm talking full swings. I almost gave up!! The wood
> I used to protect the rim edge was destroyed.
> Had this flat occurred anywhere but right outside my shop, it woulda needed
> towing.
> It was a full 1/2 hour workout -- I needed a nappypoo afterwards.
>
> Should I grease the rim/hub contact area? A number of people have told me
> not to. Heat issues? A high-temp grease?
> Maybe fabricate some kind of shim? Alum? Nylon?
>
> How about greasing lug nuts? I need to use a pipe on the lug wrench, and
> sometimes I think the stud is going to break off with the g-d nut. Mebbe
> anti-seize compound, or loctite?

At the tire shop I go to (that does mostly commercial vehicles and large
trucks) they smear this clear grease stuff around the tire's beads
before seating it on the rim. I've never asked what it was, the stuff
might be plain silicone grease for all I know.
,,,,
But I do know that with tubeless bicycle wheel setups, you need to use
some kind of liquid sealer or else too much air leaks out between the
tire & rim.... (the bead systems of bicycles and cars aren't quite
alike, but anyway)



And I dunno jack squat about changin tires profeshionnaly,,,,, but I
never knew anyone with a level head to use anti-seize on lug nuts.

[dsi1]

On 10/24/2011 9:07 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
> Double negatives are hard to understand.
>
> Yeah, me, net nanny. I know. No one likes
> a net nanny.
>

Actually, I'm having a little trouble understanding what I wrote too.
Must have been some kind of brain problem.

[hls]

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" <lloydspinsidemindspring.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9F88D386E112Dll...@216.168.3.70...

> dsi1 <ds...@eternal-september.invalid> fired this volley in news:j85008$27s
> $1...@dont-email.me:
>
>> Sometimes they're call a special wheel tightening monkey
>> to do the job. At least the supervisors got something to do.
>>
>>
>
> In fact, that's what Discount Tire does. The tire monkey changes and pre-
> torques everything. ANOTHER guy comes by with the torker, makes a show of
> looking up the setting and setting the wrench, then does every lugnut.
>
> It may be partly for 'show', but it's the right way to do it.
>
> LLoyd

Actually, that isnt what they do around here. Again, I specify
to Discount Tire that I want a proper torque wrench used.

Here, they normally use torque stix on their impact wrench..
and that caused disc warpage on my vehicles more than once.

[Michael A. Terrell]

Stormin Mormon wrote:
>
> My need for torque spec, is that I've had some moments when
> I had a flat tire, and could not get the lugs to loosen.
> With my lugs at 100 foot pounds, this has not been an issue.
>
> I now carry a 25 inch breaker bar, and set of deep sockets.
> I stop and help folks along the road, sometimes. Have used
> the breaker bar a couple times, on others vehicles.
>
> One friend's Buick station wagon. Had the tall "top hat"
> style lug nuts. He liked the simple, old fashioned kind,
> better. So, he went to the store and bought a whole set of
> old fashioned lug nuts like you'd use on steel wheels. I had
> tried that on earlier vehicle, Chevrolet Blazer, and told
> him of my poor results. The aluminum wheels fuse to the
> steel lugs, and refuse to come out. He ended up grinding the
> lugs and studs away, because no wrench goes far enough down
> to provide a grip. That took many, many hours of grinder
> time, while laying in the driveway. The tall lugs, with
> neversieze, work much better.

On front wheels I've had to get the tire spinning, and shove the lug
wrench on the lugnut to break them loose, when only the X wrench was
availible and there was no way to get to other tools. I've also had to
drive a flat tire up on the spare to be able to get the jack under an
old truck.

[Michael A. Terrell]

Stormin Mormon wrote:
>
> The one time I lost a wheel. The day before,
> I'd been working on the brakes. It started to
> rain, so I put the wheel on, lugs finger tight.
> And, I forgot to snug down the lugs. I've learned
> that finger tight doesn't work. I've also learned
> that in such a moment, I have to leave the lug
> wrench on the drivers seat, to remind me to
> tighten before driving any where.
>
> I really don't like repair garages that air the lugs
> on, and then I can't remove them.

The only time I ever came close to loosing a wheel was after I left a
garage that tried to tell me the ball joints were shot on my '66 GTO.
The SOBs had loosened the lug nuts so the wheel would wobble. It started
to vibrate a block away, so i pulled into a parking lot and found ll the
lug nuts were loose. I tightened them up and went back, then read them
the riot act in front of people who were waiting for their cars. They
first tried to claim that they weren't loose, then that if they were,
they were that way when I came in for the lube job.

[hls]

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" <lloydspinsidemindspring.com>

> I recently got tires for my wife's care at "Discount Tire". They pre-
> torqued everything with a wimpy setting on an air impact wrench, then
> carefully (I watched they guy set the wrench) dialed in a click-torquer,
> and went around to every lug on every tire. ..................>
> Don't assume until you ask.
>
> LLoyd

Absolutely, dont assume anything. Ask, and specify what
you want. Discount Tire is a good chain in general, but I
definitely had trouble when they told me they torqued the
lugs with the torque stix. That just isnt good enough.

[hls]

> Some mechanics use "torque limiting" gadgets and air wrench.
>
> --
> Christopher A. Young
> Learn more about Jesus
> www.lds.org

Yeah, that is what they say. The torque stix are supposedly
torque limiting devices, but IF you should overtorque with
one of these, you likely wont find it when you go back and
go around the star with a proper torque wrench. You get
get to the level you dialed in and stop there.

There are expensive powered torque devices that can do
a really fine job, but you wont find these at any tire shops
nor many (if any) mechanics garages. They are used for
assembly line work.

[hls]

"DougC" <dci...@norcom2000.com> wrote in message > But I do know that with

tubeless bicycle wheel setups, you need to use
> some kind of liquid sealer or else too much air leaks out between the tire
> & rim.... (the bead systems of bicycles and cars aren't quite alike, but
> anyway)
>
>
>
> And I dunno jack squat about changin tires profeshionnaly,,,,, but I never
> knew anyone with a level head to use anti-seize on lug nuts.

..............
You have to be a bit careful about the kind of "grease" you
use on rubber. Modern rubber compounds are very resistant
in general, but it has not always been so.

Traditionally soap, or even soapy water was used.. Ru-Glyde
is or was a rubber cleaner and conditioner that was basically
a water soluble soap. It did not attack rubber.

Now, I have a newish Toyota Solara with the doughnut
spare tire. The spare has never been mounted but has a
VERY slow leak so that every 6 months or so it leaks down
and triggers the low pressure sensor. I dont think it would
be very easy to find this leak, and was thinking about just
dosing it with a compound to seal it from the inside.

Does anyone know of a commercial product made to do this?

I have avoided the use of Fix A Flat type materials, and
dont want to use anything that will put water inside the rim.

Thanks

[Nicholas]

Find the valve stem and make sure the insert is screwed in tightly.
The tool to do this is about $1. Or just replace it.

[Nicholas]

On Tue, 25 Oct 2011 09:40:39 -0500, "hls" <h...@nospam.nix> wrote:

>

[hls]

"Nicholas" <Lawrence...@comcast.net> wrote in > Find the valve stem

and make sure the insert is screwed in tightly.
> The tool to do this is about $1. Or just replace it.
>

That is a fair enough way to start.

I guess I will know if it worked in about 6 months.

[Stormin Mormon]

With tire on ground. Put the X wrench on. Pull up on the
right side, use foot to press down on the left side. Lean on
the vehicle. Works, for me.

Drive up onto the spare, I would not have thought of that.
Thanks for sharing.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote in
message
news:dZidnUwhpfjGJjvT...@earthlink.com...

[Stormin Mormon]

If more men, were men like you. There would be less crooks
like those. Wish more people had your courage and common
sense.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote in
message

news:iuadnQZe1K4OITvT...@earthlink.com...

[Stormin Mormon]

I'd suggest to pull the spare wheel out, and check for leaks
the old fashioned way. Spray bottle of water with a little
dish soap. Screw the cap off the valve stem, squirt some
soapy in there. Check for bubbles leaving.

Fix a Flat only works if you drive immediately after the
inflation. To distribute the latex. To squirt into a spare
wheel in storage, worse than a waste of time. It would
harden off center, and give you balance problems when you
use the spare.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"hls" <h...@nospam.nix> wrote in message

news:2qednW9CfK7zVzvT...@giganews.com...

[Michael A. Terrell]

Stormin Mormon wrote:
>
> With tire on ground. Put the X wrench on. Pull up on the
> right side, use foot to press down on the left side. Lean on
> the vehicle. Works, for me.
>
> Drive up onto the spare, I would not have thought of that.
> Thanks for sharing.

It was all I had available, when the factory supplied scissor jack
was too tall to slip under the axle. It was dark and pouring rain. I
was barely out of the road, and sitting in mud. You get creative in
situations like that. :)

[Michael A. Terrell]

Stormin Mormon wrote:
>
> If more men, were men like you. There would be less crooks
> like those. Wish more people had your courage and common
> sense.

I had just finished Basic Training and had spent a few days at home.
I was getting ready to leave for Ft. Rucker the next morning. It was
about a 700 mile trip, and they knew it. If I had had more time, I
would have lubed it myself. I never went back to that place, but I
heard they pulled a few other stunts and lost a lot of business. I
figured that if I could tell off a D.I. while in Basic and survive, I
might as well tell them what crooks they were. :)

[Ed Treijs]

On Oct 25, 10:33 am, "hls" <h...@nospam.nix> wrote:

> Yeah, that is what they say.  The torque stix are supposedly
> torque limiting devices, but IF you should overtorque with
> one of these, you likely wont find it when you go back and
> go around the star with a proper torque wrench.   You get
> get to the level you dialed in and stop there.  
>
> There are expensive powered torque devices that can do
> a really fine job, but you wont find these at any tire shops
> nor many (if any) mechanics garages.  They are used for
> assembly line work.

What really annoys me are the goofs who tighten up the nuts/bolts and
then make a show of taking a torque wrench to it. Yeah, it will click.
That means that the nuts or bolts aren't undertorqued. But of course a
torque wrench set to 86 ft-lbs will click equally happily on a bolt
torqued to 87 ft-lbs as it will on a bolt torqued to 187 ft-lbs or 287
ft-lbs.

I say "bolt" because I have recently purchased an older Saab, which
has beefy 17mm wheel bolts. They probably need to be cleaned up,
because they tighten up *very* quickly. When I first got the car, I
had to purchase a good-quality impact socket, use my better 1/2" drive
breaker bar, and put a four-foot pipe over it. The bolts let go with a
bang that hurt my hand.

Since then, I've had the wheels off twice, once to fix a flat, once to
test-fit steel rims for winter tires. Two different places, each of
them did the air-gun followed by the "see? the torque wrench clicks!"
show. In each case, I had to use my big breaker bar (but thankfully no
cheater pipe) to loosen the bolts and torque them up properly.

My old mechanic used to torque wheels on properly, though his
apprentice and short-time business partner didn't. And then the shop
went bankrupt. The Tire Rack's shop in South Bend uses torque wrenches
properly. That's about all I've found. From experience, I always have
to go and re-do the torque after any shop has touched the wheels.

[Stormin Mormon]

I went out a second ago (5:45 PM EST, Oct 25, 2011) and I'm
getting rain. Guess I'll stay in, tonight, and find
something to do.

Flat tire in the rain, I'd get creative, also.

Likely, your flat was in the low area, along side the road.
The jacks are probably designed indoors, in a dry
laboratory.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.


"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote in
message

news:iOOdnc-BctgmgDrT...@earthlink.com...

[Stormin Mormon]

Oh, it gets worse. They were trying to scam active military
guy, on deployment? I'm surprised you didn't return with
several of your brother troops, and really do a job on them.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.


"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote in
message

news:BIOdna6oZK5-gzrT...@earthlink.com...

[AMuzi]

Stormin Mormon wrote:
> Oh, it gets worse. They were trying to scam active military
> guy, on deployment? I'm surprised you didn't return with
> several of your brother troops, and really do a job on them.

I know a fair number of US soldiers and officers. They are,
as a group, professionals of good character, not at all akin
to Hells Angels.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Michael A. Terrell]

Stormin Mormon wrote:
>
> I went out a second ago (5:45 PM EST, Oct 25, 2011) and I'm
> getting rain. Guess I'll stay in, tonight, and find
> something to do.
>
> Flat tire in the rain, I'd get creative, also.
>
> Likely, your flat was in the low area, along side the road.
> The jacks are probably designed indoors, in a dry
> laboratory.

Even on dry, level ground the jack was over an inch too high. After
that, I carried three pieces of 2" * 12" in different lengths behind the
seat to drive up on.

[Michael A. Terrell]

Stormin Mormon wrote:
>
> Oh, it gets worse. They were trying to scam active military
> guy, on deployment? I'm surprised you didn't return with
> several of your brother troops, and really do a job on them.

I was at my dad's house to pick up that '66 GTO, and no where near
any Army base. Basic was at Ft. Knox which was several hundreds of
miles away, and the only mililtary base within a two hour drive was
Wright-Patterson AFB.

[Michael A. Terrell]

AMuzi wrote:
>
> Stormin Mormon wrote:
> > Oh, it gets worse. They were trying to scam active military
> > guy, on deployment? I'm surprised you didn't return with
> > several of your brother troops, and really do a job on them.
>
> I know a fair number of US soldiers and officers. They are,
> as a group, professionals of good character, not at all akin
> to Hells Angels.

WHo said they were? OTOH, a bunch of GIs telling people that a
business was ripping off soldiers gets the message across. These days,
a phone call to a TV station and a few protest signs would do the job.
Those so called bad ball joints were fine, and I was quoted over $500
for the repairs. 'Short sticking' was common back then, too. You
should have seen the look on one pump jockey's face when he wanted to
know why I had two chrome plated alternators on that car. I told him it
was a military secret and if I told him why they were there, the Army
would have to kill him to make sure he kept his mouth shut. All of a
sudden he decided I wasn't a quart of oil low. ;-)

[Stormin Mormon]

I'm having a faint, distant memory. Did the US mil make a
tank four inches wider than the door of the aircraft?

Recent episode of "Ice Pilots" had a moment. They had welded
1/4 inch thick diamond plate onto the floor of a cargo
plane. And then, the generator designed for said plane would
not fit, by about 1/4 inch.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.


"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote in
message

news:Lbqdnb2MVMV-oDrT...@earthlink.com...

[Stormin Mormon]

I've not heard of the "air gun, then clicker" routine.
Though, I can easily imagine it. I'd be temped to ask to
borrow thier torque wrench. Flip the direction lever, and
try loosening at the same torque.

I presume that you tried your impact wrench, before the
breaker bar? Sometimes they will rattle rust loose. Several
vehicles ago, I was changing rear shocks. My impact gun (Wel
Bilt, from Northern Tools) worked fine. I tried the breaker
bar on the other side, which broke the bolt rather than
loosening. Shoulda used the impact wrench for both. My Wel
Bilt broke, two lugs into a brake change, and I was three
hours drive from home. Since then, I did get a Harbor
Freight electic impact. Which has a bad switch. Works for
"off" but not for "tighten". Since I typically use star and
ratchet and torque for tighten, it's not a big deal.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org

.


"Ed Treijs" <ed.to...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:fa90be5f-235f-482e...@r2g2000vbj.googlegroups.com...

[hls]

"Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:j87gku$enj$1...@dont-email.me...

> I've not heard of the "air gun, then clicker" routine.
>

If you are dead ass lazy, you can take the air impact wrench
and run the bolts or nuts in to bottom. That is okay.
BUT you must stop before you get too tight, and then use
your accurate torque wrench in a star pattern to bring all the
studs to correct torque.

This is no shade tree crap. Do it right.

[hls]

"Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:j875tu$39e$1...@dont-email.me...

> I'd suggest to pull the spare wheel out, and check for leaks
> the old fashioned way. Spray bottle of water with a little
> dish soap. Screw the cap off the valve stem, squirt some
> soapy in there. Check for bubbles leaving.
>
> Fix a Flat only works if you drive immediately after the
> inflation. To distribute the latex. To squirt into a spare
> wheel in storage, worse than a waste of time. It would
> harden off center, and give you balance problems when you
> use the spare.
>

A spare tire IS by nature a storage situation. Fix AFlat works
under a variety of conditions. But none of this is a real
answer to what I have asked.

I have used air conditioning polymer at times, but that is DAMN expensive.

[Michael A. Terrell]

Stormin Mormon wrote:
>
> I'm having a faint, distant memory. Did the US mil make a
> tank four inches wider than the door of the aircraft?
>
> Recent episode of "Ice Pilots" had a moment. They had welded
> 1/4 inch thick diamond plate onto the floor of a cargo
> plane. And then, the generator designed for said plane would
> not fit, by about 1/4 inch.

Not that I recall. All my work around military flight was
helicopters.

[Gunner Asch]

On Tue, 25 Oct 2011 16:18:11 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
<cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote:

>With tire on ground. Put the X wrench on. Pull up on the
>right side, use foot to press down on the left side. Lean on
>the vehicle. Works, for me.

Works unless you have left handed threads..which a lot of vehicles used
to have.

>
>Drive up onto the spare, I would not have thought of that.
>Thanks for sharing.
>
>--
>Christopher A. Young
>Learn more about Jesus
> www.lds.org
>.
>
>
>"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote in
>message
>news:dZidnUwhpfjGJjvT...@earthlink.com...
>
> On front wheels I've had to get the tire spinning, and
>shove the lug
>wrench on the lugnut to break them loose, when only the X
>wrench was
>availible and there was no way to get to other tools. I've
>also had to
>drive a flat tire up on the spare to be able to get the jack
>under an
>old truck.

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

[Gunner Asch]

On Tue, 25 Oct 2011 09:40:39 -0500, "hls" <h...@nospam.nix> wrote:

> I dont think it would
>be very easy to find this leak, and was thinking about just
>dosing it with a compound to seal it from the inside.

Slime leak fixer. Available at Kmart/Walmart/Autozone etc etc.

But you WILL have to drive on it a few miles after putting in the proper
amount.

Gunner

[dsi1]

On 10/25/2011 3:37 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Oct 2011 09:40:39 -0500, "hls"<h...@nospam.nix> wrote:
>
>> I dont think it would
>> be very easy to find this leak, and was thinking about just
>> dosing it with a compound to seal it from the inside.
>
> Slime leak fixer. Available at Kmart/Walmart/Autozone etc etc.
>
> But you WILL have to drive on it a few miles after putting in the proper
> amount.

I tried some Slime in my tire. The Slime kit came with an electric pump
and some valve cores with wrench. Oddly enough, that stuff works. It
will not work on damage to your sidewall however. I'm pretty happy with
not having to replace the expensive tire on my Hyundai. The tire had a
nail in it which I've been meaning to pull out. My understanding is that
the slime remains in liquid form and should prevent leaks after you
"install" it.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Tue, 25 Oct 2011 18:35:49 -0700, Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Tue, 25 Oct 2011 16:18:11 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
><cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>With tire on ground. Put the X wrench on. Pull up on the
>>right side, use foot to press down on the left side. Lean on
>>the vehicle. Works, for me.
>
>Works unless you have left handed threads..which a lot of vehicles used
>to have.
>
>

Chryslers and Oldsmobiles in particular

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Tue, 25 Oct 2011 18:37:51 -0700, Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Tue, 25 Oct 2011 09:40:39 -0500, "hls" <h...@nospam.nix> wrote:
>
>> I dont think it would
>>be very easy to find this leak, and was thinking about just
>>dosing it with a compound to seal it from the inside.
>
>Slime leak fixer. Available at Kmart/Walmart/Autozone etc etc.

Slime and tire pressure monitors are not supposed to exixt on the
same planet, much less the same tire. You really need to get it into a
dip tank and find out exactly where the leak is. If it's going flat in
less than 6 months you WILL be able to find the leak.

[Michael A. Terrell]

Gunner Asch wrote:
>
> On Tue, 25 Oct 2011 16:18:11 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
> <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >With tire on ground. Put the X wrench on. Pull up on the
> >right side, use foot to press down on the left side. Lean on
> >the vehicle. Works, for me.
>
> Works unless you have left handed threads..which a lot of vehicles used
> to have.

That old Dodge had them.

[Steve W.]

hls wrote:
>
> "DougC" <dci...@norcom2000.com> wrote in message > But I do know that
> with tubeless bicycle wheel setups, you need to use
>> some kind of liquid sealer or else too much air leaks out between the
>> tire & rim.... (the bead systems of bicycles and cars aren't quite
>> alike, but anyway)
>>
>>
>>
>> And I dunno jack squat about changin tires profeshionnaly,,,,, but I
>> never knew anyone with a level head to use anti-seize on lug nuts.
>
> ..............
> You have to be a bit careful about the kind of "grease" you
> use on rubber. Modern rubber compounds are very resistant
> in general, but it has not always been so.
>
> Traditionally soap, or even soapy water was used.. Ru-Glyde
> is or was a rubber cleaner and conditioner that was basically
> a water soluble soap. It did not attack rubber.
>

> Now, I have a newish Toyota Solara with the doughnut
> spare tire. The spare has never been mounted but has a
> VERY slow leak so that every 6 months or so it leaks down

> and triggers the low pressure sensor. I dont think it would

> be very easy to find this leak, and was thinking about just
> dosing it with a compound to seal it from the inside.
>

> Does anyone know of a commercial product made to do this?
>
> I have avoided the use of Fix A Flat type materials, and
> dont want to use anything that will put water inside the rim.
>
> Thanks

Take off the spare. Wipe it clean, take it in the house. Fill the bat
tub with enough water to set the tire in and cover over the rim, (even
better if you could lay it flat but most normal tubs don't allow this).
With the tire full of air you should find the leak easily. That slow I
would suspect leakage from the core or around the stem.

Then repair it. Fix a flat type stuff will wipe out a TPS real quick.

--
Steve W.

[Bill]

On 10/25/2011 8:41 PM, Steve W. wrote:
> hls wrote:
>>
>> "DougC" <dci...@norcom2000.com> wrote in message > But I do know that
>> with tubeless bicycle wheel setups, you need to use
>>> some kind of liquid sealer or else too much air leaks out between the
>>> tire & rim.... (the bead systems of bicycles and cars aren't quite
>>> alike, but anyway)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> And I dunno jack squat about changin tires profeshionnaly,,,,, but I
>>> never knew anyone with a level head to use anti-seize on lug nuts.
>>
>> ..............

perhaps then you have not read the factory manual on many cars - most of
mine REQUIRE anti-seize on the lug nuts. Perhaps it is not normal for
big trucks or something.

[jim beam]

it's not essential on nuts with a closed end. but an open end, where
salted water can penetrate the threads more easily, then you can have
major seizure problems. and a [consumer applied at consumer expense]
preventative saves the manufacturer from having to spend a few cents on
better wheel nuts. i'm not kidding.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

[Gunner Asch]

On Tue, 25 Oct 2011 15:55:50 -1000, dsi1
<ds...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote:

>On 10/25/2011 3:37 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
>> On Tue, 25 Oct 2011 09:40:39 -0500, "hls"<h...@nospam.nix> wrote:
>>
>>> I dont think it would
>>> be very easy to find this leak, and was thinking about just
>>> dosing it with a compound to seal it from the inside.
>>
>> Slime leak fixer. Available at Kmart/Walmart/Autozone etc etc.
>>
>> But you WILL have to drive on it a few miles after putting in the proper
>> amount.
>
>I tried some Slime in my tire. The Slime kit came with an electric pump
>and some valve cores with wrench. Oddly enough, that stuff works. It
>will not work on damage to your sidewall however. I'm pretty happy with
>not having to replace the expensive tire on my Hyundai. The tire had a
>nail in it which I've been meaning to pull out. My understanding is that
>the slime remains in liquid form and should prevent leaks after you
>"install" it.
>

Indeed. I have several mountain bikes which get ridden sporadicaly and
the Slime keeps them pretty much leak free. I picked up a half dozen
roofing nails on one of my runs...sometime in the last 6 months..or on
several runs. I only found them last week and Id not been on the bike in
a month.

Good shit Maynard!

[Gunner Asch]

On Tue, 25 Oct 2011 22:27:07 -0400, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:

>On Tue, 25 Oct 2011 18:37:51 -0700, Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 25 Oct 2011 09:40:39 -0500, "hls" <h...@nospam.nix> wrote:
>>
>>> I dont think it would
>>>be very easy to find this leak, and was thinking about just
>>>dosing it with a compound to seal it from the inside.
>>
>>Slime leak fixer. Available at Kmart/Walmart/Autozone etc etc.
>
> Slime and tire pressure monitors are not supposed to exixt on the
>same planet, much less the same tire. You really need to get it into a
>dip tank and find out exactly where the leak is. If it's going flat in
>less than 6 months you WILL be able to find the leak.

Ive never even SEEN a vehicle with a tire pressure monitor, let alone
owned one.

Must be pretty neat.

Gunner

[aemeijers]

On 10/25/2011 10:47 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
>
> Gunner Asch wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, 25 Oct 2011 16:18:11 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
>> <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> With tire on ground. Put the X wrench on. Pull up on the
>>> right side, use foot to press down on the left side. Lean on
>>> the vehicle. Works, for me.
>>
>> Works unless you have left handed threads..which a lot of vehicles used
>> to have.
>
>
> That old Dodge had them.
>
>

Only on one side. My brother briefly had a 67 dodge van we briefly
brought back to life, but it only ever got used as a storage barn. As we
getting it street legal, we fought for hours with the rims on that side,
before my memory dredged up an old 'Model Garage' episode from popular
science magazine, which described same dilemma.

--
aem sends...

[Michael A. Terrell]

aemeijers wrote:
>
> On 10/25/2011 10:47 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
> >
> > Gunner Asch wrote:
> >>
> >> On Tue, 25 Oct 2011 16:18:11 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
> >> <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> With tire on ground. Put the X wrench on. Pull up on the
> >>> right side, use foot to press down on the left side. Lean on
> >>> the vehicle. Works, for me.
> >>
> >> Works unless you have left handed threads..which a lot of vehicles used
> >> to have.
> >
> >
> > That old Dodge had them.
> >
> >
> Only on one side.

Of course it was only on one side. It would kind of defeat their
purpose to have them on both sides, wouldn't it? Anyone who worked on
an old Dodge knew that.

> My brother briefly had a 67 dodge van we briefly
> brought back to life, but it only ever got used as a storage barn. As we
> getting it street legal, we fought for hours with the rims on that side,
> before my memory dredged up an old 'Model Garage' episode from popular
> science magazine, which described same dilemma.
>
> --
> aem sends...

[dsi1]

On 10/25/2011 7:00 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Oct 2011 15:55:50 -1000, dsi1
> <ds...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote:
>
>> I tried some Slime in my tire. The Slime kit came with an electric pump
>> and some valve cores with wrench. Oddly enough, that stuff works. It
>> will not work on damage to your sidewall however. I'm pretty happy with
>> not having to replace the expensive tire on my Hyundai. The tire had a
>> nail in it which I've been meaning to pull out. My understanding is that
>> the slime remains in liquid form and should prevent leaks after you
>> "install" it.
>>
> Indeed. I have several mountain bikes which get ridden sporadicaly and
> the Slime keeps them pretty much leak free. I picked up a half dozen
> roofing nails on one of my runs...sometime in the last 6 months..or on
> several runs. I only found them last week and Id not been on the bike in
> a month.
>
> Good shit Maynard!
>

Good shit indeed. It's a great product with a goofy name. As an added
bonus, it's muy delicioso on ice cream! (-;

[hls]

"Gunner Asch" <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote in message >

> Ive never even SEEN a vehicle with a tire pressure monitor, let alone
> owned one.
>
> Must be pretty neat.
>
> Gunner

They are neat. They activate well before the tire goes flat.

In this case, all four road tires have the sensor and the
doughnut spare also has one. That spare is aired to 65psi, and when it
drops due to a leak, a warning light activates on the dash.

On cold mornings it can activate also due to lowering of pressure.

[Stormin Mormon]

The previous poster described lugs air wrenched on to max
torque, and the clicker was for show.

I've often air'd on the lugs, till they seat, gently. And
then set the torque with a torque clicker. Easier than
rotating the lugs a dozen revolutions by hand, till they
seat.

Not sure what you mean by "no shade tree crap".

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"hls" <h...@nospam.nix> wrote in message
news:zIWdnYGM5b3MyjrT...@giganews.com...

[sta...@prolynx.com]

On Oct 24, 7:26 pm, "hls" <h...@nospam.nix> wrote:
> "dsi1" <d...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote in message news:j84va3$tn6>
> > My guess is that most mechanics don't use a torque wrench to tighten a
> > nut/bolt.
>
> You may be right.. In this town, no professional mechanic uses a torque
> wrench
> on the lugs..
>
> I do, but I am not running a business.. When I take my car for rotation, I
> take my
> own torque wrench, set at the appropriate level, and have them torque the
> star
> pattern.
>
> They once asked me why.. And I told them that if you dont do this, you risk
> having your rotors warp and may have to turn the discs..  They said "Nobody
> in town does this.  And I hope the people dont find out"
>
> Whether you accept this or not, this is my way of doing things and I demand
> that it be done.   I never have to have rotors turned when I demand that
> this
> be followed.

All the dedicated tire shops in this town use torque wrenches for
putting on, only time impact wrenches are used is taking them off.
One reason I use tire shops instead of a wally world or Sears.

Stan

[Ed Treijs]

On Oct 26, 9:33 am, "Stormin Mormon"

<cayoung61**spambloc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> The previous poster described lugs air wrenched on to  max
> torque, and the clicker was for show.

Actually, I am not entirely sure whether the torque-wrench wielders
honestly have no understanding that what they're doing is pointless,
or whether they do understand the pointlessness of their "check" but
assume that the watching customer will have no understanding that it's
pointless.

I lean towards the former, because really it isn't a whole lot of
extra work to actually tighten up the bolts with the torque wrench
given that you've pulled it out and everything. (Assuming it's set
correctly, of course.) I guess it's just too tempting to give the
impact gun a couple or four extra bursts "just to be sure". By that
point, the bolts or nuts are overtorqued, maybe by 100% or more.

> I've often air'd on the lugs, till they seat, gently. And
> then set the torque with a torque clicker. Easier than
> rotating the lugs a dozen revolutions by hand, till they
> seat.

I never use my torque wrench to seat the bolts (or nuts on my previous
cars). Well-maintained, unabused bolts/nuts should be seatable by
hand, or at most with a deep socket turned by hand. Then the
preliminary tightening I do gently with the breaker bar that I used to
remove the bolts (nuts). Anyway, I don't posess an impact gun of any
sort, so the point is moot.

[Stormin Mormon]

I remember reading, maybe it was Readers Digest. The
military bought a bunch of air planes, with a loading ramp
in the back. The plan was to fly into the combat area, land
the plane. Ramp comes down, tanks roll off. Problem was the
door was smaller than the tank, so the field people had to
unbolt all the armor, and load it on and off by hand. And
the time required to rebolt it all back on. I could not find
this mentioned on the web.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.


"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote in
message

news:h8ednUljkNyywTrT...@earthlink.com...

[Stormin Mormon]

I have, many times, spun the lug on with impact wrench. Stop
when I can see the lug bottom out. Snug the lug with a
torque. But, I would not trust a Sears or Walmart guy to
know when to let off the air wrench trigger.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

<sta...@prolynx.com> wrote in message
news:190143a6-380a-4edb...@a7g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...

[Bruce L. Bergman (munged human readable)]

On Mon, 24 Oct 2011 12:08:28 -0400, "Existential Angst"
<fit...@optonline.net> wrote:

>Had to sledgehammer the flat tire/rim off the hub, it had rusted on so
>hard -- which is strange, bec the tires had been rotated a month or two
>ago.
>
>I've had to kick rims off hubs before, but never sledgehammer it off -- and
>I'm not talking taps, I'm talking full swings. I almost gave up!! The wood
>I used to protect the rim edge was destroyed.
>Had this flat occurred anywhere but right outside my shop, it woulda needed
>towing.
>It was a full 1/2 hour workout -- I needed a nappypoo afterwards.
>
>Should I grease the rim/hub contact area? A number of people have told me
>not to. Heat issues? A high-temp grease?
>Maybe fabricate some kind of shim? Alum? Nylon?

No - Paint them. High heat paint on the hub and back of the wheel
will keep the rust away from the non-contact areas,and won't let the
rust get going on the contact faces.

And if the tires stick to the inside lips of steel rims, take the
tires off and sandblast & paint the insides of the rims too. This is
a good reason to find a second set of stock rims for your car, so you
can mess with this at your leisure before buying new tires - the paint
really needs to dry for a few days before mounting tires, or Powder
Coat them.

When you change a wheel, then you can either grab a spray can and a
wire brush and put a fresh coat of paint on the mating surfaces to
seal the rust out.

You could put a very thin coat of Anti-Seize or a Synthetic high-temp
grease on the contact areas where the paint rubbed off to keep the
rust out - but that can cause problems.

Luckily I'm in So Cal, and it doesn't get that rusty where they lock
up solid - just the 'keep them painted' trick will do.

>How about greasing lug nuts? I need to use a pipe on the lug wrench, and
>sometimes I think the stud is going to break off with the g-d nut. Mebbe
>anti-seize compound, or loctite?

Grease the studs and wheel nuts, never. A tiny dab of anti-seize (and
I stress tiny!) is allowed, just enough to get a thin coating on the
threads. Be sure to use a torque wrench and check them periodically.

They really need to come up with a protocol for that - say "with
anti-seize you torque to 90% of dry" but I've never heard of one.

--<< Bruce >>--

[Cydrome Leader]

In rec.crafts.metalworking dsi1 <ds...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote:
> On 10/24/2011 2:47 PM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
>> dsi1<ds...@eternal-september.invalid> fired this volley in news:j85008$27s
>> $1...@dont-email.me:
>>
>>> Sometimes they're call a special wheel tightening monkey
>>> to do the job. At least the supervisors got something to do.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> In fact, that's what Discount Tire does. The tire monkey changes and pre-
>> torques everything. ANOTHER guy comes by with the torker, makes a show of
>> looking up the setting and setting the wrench, then does every lugnut.
>>
>> It may be partly for 'show', but it's the right way to do it.
>>
>> LLoyd
>
> My guess is that their insurance underwriters will insist that they do
> it. It seems like a prudent thing to do.

It sounds great to me.

I've purchased expensive tools if they 1)look impressive 2)technically get
the job done better and hopefull 3)add more billable time to achieve #2.
Nobody complains about a job well done, but they do get pissy and go over
prices if you did a shitty job.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Wed, 26 Oct 2011 01:17:14 -0400, aemeijers <aeme...@att.net>
wrote:

Left hand nuts on left hand wheels only - Model "A" Ford, All early
Chrysler products, Olds up untill about 1958 just for a few.

Not a problem untill some nitwit puts the left brake drum/hub onto the
right side of your old '49 Dodge - - - - .