How many layers of oil paint
Ignoramus11495
mechanism) was bent, but I was able to straighten it with the press.
I have started painting the lathe, for now it is just the apron. I
tried to be good about stripping the paint and degreasing.
http://igor.chudov.com/projects/Clausing-6913-Lathe/07-Painting/
I plan on using Valspar oil paint and anti-rust red primer, which
seems to be a decent, thick alkyd paint. I believe it to be oil
resistant, but if anyone thinks otherwise, I would like to know.
The question is how many layers of primer and paint is best. I was
planning on two layers of primer and two layers of paint. This means
that it takes four days to paint something, with one day per layer due
to drying time.
i
Pete C.
If I were going to all that trouble, I'd be looking for a good 2 part
catalyzed epoxy paint.
Ignoramus11495
> If I were going to all that trouble, I'd be looking for a good 2 part
> catalyzed epoxy paint.
Pete, I would like to know why you think so, just so that I can
understand why epoxy is better.
i
Bob La Londe
news:vvidnWEpLsi75ezW...@giganews.com...
Epoxy is one of the more resistant resins. Some chemicals obviously will
eat it, but in normal usage its only real Achilles heel is UV radiation
primarily from sunlight.
Ignoramus11495
OK, I changed my mind and I will use epoxy. I assume I need to remove
the primer that I put on, which will be easy.
i
cavelamb
Yes. You'll need a compatible primer.
A two-part epoxy primer would be ideal.
Randoplate or EpiBond are my personal favorites.
Then a top coat to protect from UV.
--
Richard Lamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/
"The clock of life is wound but once, and no man has the power
to tell just when the hands will stop, at late or early hour...
Now is the only time you own. Live, love, toil with a will.
Place no faith in time. For the clock may soon be still."
Pete Keillor
Maybe not, I'd ask the epoxy paint supplier. One of the outstanding
features of epoxy is adhesion to metal, so you might want to. On the
other hand, when I bought two part epoxy from Sherwin Williams, they
recommended a primer. I don't remember what kind, but it was not
water based.
Pete Keillor
Steve Lusardi
The main advantage to any 2 part paint is that they cure, not dry. In that light, they are not stressed and resist chipping far
better than any conventional paint, but whatever you use, it must be a compatible paint system from bottom 'till top. I absolutely
prefer powder coating to all paints, because of durability issues and cost. If you consider the cost of all the cleaners,
solvents, primer, sandpaper the cost of a powder solution is much cheaper. As an example, when I rebuilt my 13 x 40 modern SB, I
did it in powder including the chip pan. Now, 7 years later, immersed in oil and other coolants and after countless cleanings, the
powder coat is as good as when it was done. I have never seen any paint stand up to chips in the pan for more than a couple of
years. However, I did not have the courage to put the headstock, carriage, bed or tailstock through the heat process required for
the powder coat in fear of warping. If you stick to a RAL color, the powder and paints will match.
Steve
"Ignoramus11495" <ignoram...@NOSPAM.11495.invalid> wrote in message news:4Pydndhe9dGR8uzW...@giganews.com...
Ignoramus11495
> Iggy,
> The main advantage to any 2 part paint is that they cure, not
> dry. In that light, they are not stressed and resist chipping far
> better than any conventional paint, but whatever you use, it must be
> a compatible paint system from bottom 'till top. I absolutely prefer
> powder coating to all paints, because of durability issues and
> cost. If you consider the cost of all the cleaners, solvents,
> primer, sandpaper the cost of a powder solution is much cheaper. As
> an example, when I rebuilt my 13 x 40 modern SB, I did it in powder
> including the chip pan. Now, 7 years later, immersed in oil and
> other coolants and after countless cleanings, the powder coat is as
> good as when it was done. I have never seen any paint stand up to
> chips in the pan for more than a couple of years. However, I did not
> have the courage to put the headstock, carriage, bed or tailstock
> through the heat process required for the powder coat in fear of
> warping. If you stick to a RAL color, the powder and paints will
> match. Steve
Steve, at this point I am committed to epoxy. Removing primer from the
apron is not a big deal, maybe 10 minutes.
i
dca...@krl.org
11495.invalid> wrote:
>
> The question is how many layers of primer and paint is best. I was
> planning on two layers of primer and two layers of paint. This means
> that it takes four days to paint something, with one day per layer due
> to drying time.
>
> i
Get some other opinions, but I would only use one coat of primer. Back
when they used Zinc Chromate primer the rule was one coat, thin enough
to see thru the coat. See what the paint company recommends.
Dan
Richard J Kinch
> The main advantage to any 2 part paint is that they cure, not dry. In
> that light, they are not stressed and resist chipping far better than
> any conventional paint,
This is not true; they all "cure" in that they form polymer films from
monomers. Epoxy "curing" (polymerization) is triggered by the addition of
a catalyst. Latex (emulsion) curing is triggered by the breaking of the
emulsion caused by water or solvent evaporation. In oil paints curing is
triggered by the oxygen in the air. But they all form cross-linked polymer
films. They don't "dry" like mud turning into dirt. Linseed oil versus
epoxy are different polymers with very different resistance to solvents,
but they are both just polymers.
Paint is a superstitious item to most people. They have no idea how paint
works beyond the label on the can, or what is different about various
types. They think paint "dries", and that "latex" paint has something to do
with rubber. For all we spend on public schooling, this is a shame, that
such a practical bit of chemistry is not taught. Of course paints are an
ancient item and you don't have to understand chemistry to use them, just
to optimize their use.
john
The trick is to let the primer dry completely before you put on
the paint. I know its hard to wait but it is the best way to do it.
As far as two part epoxy paint, make sure you have proper ventilation
and use a fresh air mask. The warnings on the cans are for real. I
knew four different painters that used that stuff and are all dead now.
I personally would not get near that stuff.
Coolant is what will make the paint peel and blister. The better the
surface prep the better the paint job.
John
cavelamb
Splitting hairs here,
The stuff that sets epoxy in motion is called "hardener".
"Catalyst" is used in polyester and vinylester resins...
Ed Huntress
"Richard J Kinch" <ki...@truetex.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9D1AAC88F93...@216.196.97.131...
Oil paints and latex paints, as well as conventional drying lacquers, etc.,
have a considerable amount of solvent that evaporates, leaving the surface
of the coating in tension. They generally chip easier than two-part-curing
epoxies and polyurethanes.
However, not all epoxies and polyurethanes are "100% solids." (A misnomer,
but that's what they're sometimes called.) They often contain solvents, too.
As for resisting chipping, two-part polyurethanes, in general, are far more
chip-resistant than epoxies.
At least they were, the last time I had to research and write about them,
which was a couple of decades ago.
--
Ed Huntress
DoN. Nichols
> dca...@krl.org wrote:
[ ... ]
> The trick is to let the primer dry completely before you put on
> the paint. I know its hard to wait but it is the best way to do it.
> As far as two part epoxy paint, make sure you have proper ventilation
> and use a fresh air mask.
^^^^^ ^^^ ^^^^
Note that does not mean a brand-new unused air mask, but an air
mask which takes fresh air pumped in from a place safely away from the
vapors. You pump enough air into the mask so that any leaks will be out
from the mask to the surrounding air, not *anything* coming in from the
paint booth. (And you probably don't want to use your compressor to
provide it, because there is also "oil vapor pneumonia" to consider.)
Something like a diaphragm pump would probably work well. The pressure
is low, the needed air flow is only medium.
And *absolutely* *positively* don't paint in any part attached
to the house and keep the wife and kids away until the job is done.
> The warnings on the cans are for real. I
> knew four different painters that used that stuff and are all dead now.
> I personally would not get near that stuff.
That I can understand.
Good Luck,
DoN.
--
Email: <dnic...@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
Ignoramus11495
> On 2010-02-09, john <amd...@intergrafix.net> wrote:
>> dca...@krl.org wrote:
>
> [ ... ]
>
>> The trick is to let the primer dry completely before you put on
>> the paint. I know its hard to wait but it is the best way to do it.
>> As far as two part epoxy paint, make sure you have proper ventilation
>> and use a fresh air mask.
> ^^^^^ ^^^ ^^^^
> Note that does not mean a brand-new unused air mask, but an air
> mask which takes fresh air pumped in from a place safely away from the
> vapors. You pump enough air into the mask so that any leaks will be out
> from the mask to the surrounding air, not *anything* coming in from the
> paint booth. (And you probably don't want to use your compressor to
> provide it, because there is also "oil vapor pneumonia" to consider.)
> Something like a diaphragm pump would probably work well. The pressure
> is low, the needed air flow is only medium.
>
> And *absolutely* *positively* don't paint in any part attached
> to the house and keep the wife and kids away until the job is done.
I will read the labels and follow.
Are you guys talking about spray painting with a spray gun, or does
what you say apply to brush painting?
If this epoxy is that bad, I will wait until summer to apply it, when
I can do it with the garage open.
Pete Keillor
Hmmm. Ig, summer will be better because of cure times anyway, and
good ventilation is a necessity. I painted mine in a homemade spray
booth, really just a poly sheet room with a 500 cfm exhaust blower, in
the basement. I did use a respirator, more for the solvent MEK than
the epoxy.
I worked with epoxy for several decades on a daily basis with local
ventilation, no respirator. One of the primary concerns with epoxy is
the minute amount of residual epichlorohydrin, which is a sensitizer.
The hardeners, usually amines, can be very nasty. Some of the amines
I worked with are worse than lye if you get them in your eyes.
Some of the precautions above sound a lot more appropriate for two
part urethane systems, which are a whole different class of hazard,
since urethanes are a reaction product of isocyanates and polyols. The
isocyanates will kill you. I think they're grossly overstated for
epoxy. Do a search on cold molded boats and you'll see massive amounts
of handwork with epoxy. Keep in mind that the damned stuff is
extraordinarily sticky and a mess to clean up.
Just stick to your plans of following the label precautions and you
should be fine.
Pete Keillor
Ignoramus5008
Pete, thanks. I did work with epoxy before, when I had a boat and did
some repairs. Then, though, most of my work was outdoors. It did have
a sentising effect on me, but it was not drastic.
I can actually keep a decent temperature in the garage in winter with
one or two room heaters.
Usually I just let it stay cold, but right now with the lathe stripped
of paint, and be spending 3 hours per day in the garage, I keep it
somewhat warm.
i
Pete Keillor
Ig, sensitization to epi means your eyelids will start itching if you
get within range of a molecule, followed by a heavy rash, etc. For
most folks it takes a lot of exposure to get sensitized. I knew a
scientist who was sensitized, used to use epi as a cleaning solvent.
When we'd do burnouts in the next block in our fluidized bed burnout
furnace (removes crosslinked polymer, etc.) he'd know instantly in his
office. Sensitized people had to switch to other departments or leave
the company.
So I hope you're not sensitized. If you are, don't go near the stuff.
That's why I use nitrile gloves and tyvek suits when I use the stuff,
not just a respirator. That, and it's easier to throw stuff away than
remove epoxy. And whatever you do, don't wash it off your skin with
solvent. That will just increase absorption through your skin. We
used a special soap, but any grit containing soap will work.
Larry Jaques
<steve...@lusardi.de> scrawled the following:
>Iggy,
>The main advantage to any 2 part paint is that they cure, not dry. In that light, they are not stressed and resist chipping far
>better than any conventional paint, but whatever you use, it must be a compatible paint system from bottom 'till top. I absolutely
>prefer powder coating to all paints, because of durability issues and cost. If you consider the cost of all the cleaners,
>solvents, primer, sandpaper the cost of a powder solution is much cheaper.
Yabbut, just -try- to touch up a few small chips with epoxy or
powdercoating.
Alkyd paint has worked just fine for me. Clean with paint thinner and
a scotchbrite pad, then allow to dry, then paint. 2nd coat 2 days
later and it lasts for years, with very easy touchup. Save the paint
number and formula to your computer (and maybe a notebook) for later
use.
--
In order that people may be happy in their work, these three things are
needed: They must be fit for it. They must not do too much of it. And
they must have a sense of success in it.
-- John Ruskin, Pre-Raphaelitism, 1850
Ned Simmons
<keill...@chartermi.net> wrote:
>Some of the precautions above sound a lot more appropriate for two
>part urethane systems, which are a whole different class of hazard,
>since urethanes are a reaction product of isocyanates and polyols. The
>isocyanates will kill you. I think they're grossly overstated for
>epoxy. Do a search on cold molded boats and you'll see massive amounts
>of handwork with epoxy. Keep in mind that the damned stuff is
>extraordinarily sticky and a mess to clean up.
That was exactly my reaction. I worked in boatyards for a few years
when I first got out of college in the mid-70s. It was indeed possible
to become sensitized to epoxy, but it was rare and usually confined to
guys who took little care to minimize contact, and then bathed in
solvent to clean up.
Isocyanates on the other hand were a much bigger problem. On days when
there was spraying going on I'd go home if there was nothing to be
done away from the shop.
I've painted several machines and a couple Lista cabinets with epoxy.
If you're going to brush experiment first. The Rustoleum paint I use
sprays very nicely once you get used to the high viscosity, but it
does not level well when brushed.
--
Ned Simmons
john
Also especially with epoxy paints the surface has to be clean, very
clean. Do not use silicon spray cans anywhere around the machine after
you prep it for painting. The silicon spray lubricants will cause the
paint not to bond properly. The sprays can travel a great distance in
the air.
When I paint my machines I use a spray sandable primer surfacer aerosol
can. The local surplus place sells some real good spray paint for a buck
a can. It covers a lot of chips and scratches. I usually use an alcoyd
paint for the top coat. The last couple machines I just used the spray
can and then touched up the lettering, handles and misc, levers with a
paint brush and oil based paint. Of course all my machines are working
commercial shop machines but the spray paint still holds up well and
with the spray cans it makes it easy to touch any problem areas.
John
DoN. Nichols
> On 2010-02-10, DoN. Nichols <dnic...@d-and-d.com> wrote:
>> On 2010-02-09, john <amd...@intergrafix.net> wrote:
[ ... ]
>>> and use a fresh air mask.
>> ^^^^^ ^^^ ^^^^
>> Note that does not mean a brand-new unused air mask, but an air
>> mask which takes fresh air pumped in from a place safely away from the
>> vapors. You pump enough air into the mask so that any leaks will be out
>> from the mask to the surrounding air, not *anything* coming in from the
>> paint booth. (And you probably don't want to use your compressor to
>> provide it, because there is also "oil vapor pneumonia" to consider.)
>> Something like a diaphragm pump would probably work well. The pressure
>> is low, the needed air flow is only medium.
>>
>> And *absolutely* *positively* don't paint in any part attached
>> to the house and keep the wife and kids away until the job is done.
>
> I will read the labels and follow.
>
> Are you guys talking about spray painting with a spray gun, or does
> what you say apply to brush painting?
I was assuming spray painting. I think that brush painting
would not be as hazardous, unless you move your brush at supersonic
speeds. :-) After all -- the problem is inhaling the curing agent, I
believe.
> If this epoxy is that bad, I will wait until summer to apply it, when
> I can do it with the garage open.
Certainly so if you spray -- and probably a good idea even with
a brush. But this will give you plenty of time to prime it (as needed
for the paint you choose) and let it dry fully. :-)
I'm not sure how thick it would be -- which could be a problem
with brush marks brush painting. Of course, with spray, you need to
keep in mind the cure time and clean the spray gun well before each
batch you mix up gets close to cure. :-)
Richard J Kinch
> The stuff that sets epoxy in motion is called "hardener".
Yes, or "curing agent". The curing action is catalytic polymerization,
which converts the resin to a thermoset material. Hence "catalyst" is an
appropriate term for what an epoxy hardener is in principle.
cavelamb
Maybe.
But we maintain the myth that there is a difference.
Viva la difference!
dca...@krl.org
11495.invalid> wrote:
> The question is how many layers of primer and paint is best. I was
> planning on two layers of primer and two layers of paint. This means
> that it takes four days to paint something, with one day per layer due
> to drying time.
>
> i
I happened to meet a couple of Du Pont engineers visiting from
Germany.
They work for the car paint division. And asked one about painting,
specifically about how many coats of primer. He said one coat of
primer.
But then added that they are in the midst of rolling out the second
generation of water based automotive paint. It consists of a base
coat with the color and a clear top coat. NO PRIMER.
That sounds pretty neat to me. Automotive paint which ought to stand
up to exterior conditions. Just one coat if you don't need a clear
coat. And water clean up. Will have to see if I can find out more.
Dan