OT -- off grid power systems
David Lesher
array system that feeds your load AND backfeeds to the grid
{"meter backwards"}.
And/or, I'm looking for a pointer to forums [formi??] centered
around such.
--
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
Ted Frater
> I'd like to chat offline with someone who has installed a solar
> array system that feeds your load AND backfeeds to the grid
> {"meter backwards"}.
>
> And/or, I'm looking for a pointer to forums [formi??] centered
> around such.
>
>
used diesels for power generation, on demand systems by Lister, called
the startamatic set up.
5 yrs ago found 3 tons of nicad alkaline( sodium hydroxide ) batteries.
so then invested in an 3kw "outback" US system of charger/inverter.
Been in use for 6 months and has proved very efficient.
Next step is to use one of our 6/1 diesels running on straight
vegetable oil as a dc generator to eliminate the use of fossil fuel.
Will need to make a suitable alternator aka windmill permanent magnet type.
as for solar, this could be a possibility but due to the poor UK
weatherm sunshine is not reliable enough for us.
also the cost of connecting to our uk grid is prohibitive, due to the
distance.
Google for outback there the best right now for what you want.
Ted
Dorset
uk
Steve W.
I though UK sunshine was measure in inches per hour...!!!
I built a couple of the MEN style conventional wind turbines a few years
ago. They work OK but I'm thinking of building a couple vertical vane
units to eliminate many problems that you have with conventional wind
turbines. No need for a wind vane or directional control. Should be able
to put the actual generator at the base and use a simple shaft up to the
vanes. MUCH easier service that way.
With all the Amish around here now I might even have a market for them!
Most of them use an automatic diesel system for the milk house to
provide vacuum and cooling and air power.
--
Steve W.
Ted Frater
Re Vertical axis wind turbine,
My son ,( now 26) researched, designed and built for his senior school
CDT final year project some 10 yrs ago a 10ft tall vertical axis 3 blade
darius windurbine for just this purpose.
The intersting bit was the blade making. If you like I can write up what
we did.We still have all the. bits somewhere in a shed. we used an all
metal construction for them.very strong and simple.
however the advantages of this type of wind turbine are outweighed by
its poorer efficiency than the horizontal axis type.To get the same
power output they need to be twice as big.
Ie there only 50% as efficient as the other type.Sorry to say.
whatever anyone else may say.
In 15mph wind tests it spun well , tho it was out of balance due to
blade inaccuraces
We also had a neibour who built a horizontal axis turbine some 20ft dia.
using 4 3ft dia cones. this was effectively a drag machine with the
torque output being the difference between the drag of the down wind
going cups and the upwind . going ones.
Never heard how he got on. Been dismantled some time.
Can find out again if you would like to know.
Ted
in Dorset UK.
Jim Wilkins
> I'd like to chat offline with someone who has installed a solar
> array system that feeds your load AND backfeeds to the grid
> {"meter backwards"}.
>
> And/or, I'm looking for a pointer to forums [formi??] centered
> around such.
A few offgridders have posted on alt.energy.homepower but the level of
technical info was far lower than here on R.C.M.
jsw
spaco
a.s.photovoltaic is one newsgroup that deals with things solar-PV. You
have to put up with some guys who like to beat eachother up, but if you
persist, you can learn some things.
I have two friends within 50 miles of me who have put up 3Kw and 7Kw pv
systems recently.
They are both grid tied. One cost about $40,000 and the other cost
about $70,000. Rebates pay about 1/2 of that back in Wisconsin.
They both supply their local load and do grid tie, but if the power
goes away, neither of them generate for local use.
You have to spend more money to get that feature, I am told.
Also, neither one of them went with batteries. We have a pretty
reliable grid here.
Pete Stanaitis
---------------------------------
Stormin Mormon
http://www.green-trust.org/wordpress/ ) might know that
kind of thing. He's big alternative energy guy.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"David Lesher" <wb8...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:hojngk$rm7$1...@reader1.panix.com...
Larry Jaques
<kb1...@gmail.com> scrawled the following:
I'm interested in this stuff, too, and found the same lack of in-depth
info on AEH depressing. The breadth and depth of info found here is
wonderful. Great group.
--
"Not always right, but never uncertain." --Heinlein
-=-=-
Jesse
Try searching Backwoodshome.com. It is a magazine for self-reliant
living. You can search their back issues for past articles. It is a
great magazine. Tons of solar articles over the years.
wmbjk...@citlink.net
<wb8...@panix.com> wrote:
>I'd like to chat offline with someone who has installed a solar
>array system that feeds your load AND backfeeds to the grid
>{"meter backwards"}.
>
>And/or, I'm looking for a pointer to forums [formi??] centered
>around such.
Try here.
http://www.outbackpower.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=15&sid=71c974aea3301fbf6543b175305978f6
You might also search alt.energy.homepower looking for posts by
Clarence Dold. Or just post your question there so that he and other
grid-solar types will see it.
Wayne
cavelamb
>>>
>> Weve been off grid for some 39 yrs.
>> used diesels for power generation, on demand systems by Lister, called
>> the startamatic set up.
>> 5 yrs ago found 3 tons of nicad alkaline( sodium hydroxide ) batteries.
>> so then invested in an 3kw "outback" US system of charger/inverter.
>> Been in use for 6 months and has proved very efficient.
>> Next step is to use one of our 6/1 diesels running on straight
>> vegetable oil as a dc generator to eliminate the use of fossil fuel.
>> Will need to make a suitable alternator aka windmill permanent magnet type.
>> as for solar, this could be a possibility but due to the poor UK
>> weatherm sunshine is not reliable enough for us.
>> also the cost of connecting to our uk grid is prohibitive, due to the
>> distance.
>> Google for outback there the best right now for what you want.
>> Ted
>> Dorset
>> uk
>
> I though UK sunshine was measure in inches per hour...!!!
>
That's crazy! They are metric.
--
Richard Lamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/
Larry Jaques
<jr...@rochester.rr.com> scrawled the following:
Thanks. I'll give 'er a looksee.
nob...@nowhere.org
wrote:
>Your request doesn't seem to be an "off grid" request, but here's my reply.
>
>a.s.photovoltaic is one newsgroup that deals with things solar-PV. You
>have to put up with some guys who like to beat eachother up, but if you
>persist, you can learn some things.
>
>I have two friends within 50 miles of me who have put up 3Kw and 7Kw pv
>systems recently.
> They are both grid tied. One cost about $40,000 and the other cost
>about $70,000. Rebates pay about 1/2 of that back in Wisconsin.
> They both supply their local load and do grid tie, but if the power
>goes away, neither of them generate for local use.
> You have to spend more money to get that feature, I am told.
>Also, neither one of them went with batteries. We have a pretty
>reliable grid here.
>
>Pete Stanaitis
That sounds similar to the www.sunergy.com systems sold here in the
PNW. I called them wanting a system that feeds back into the grid if
there's an excess *and* also provide us power if the grid goes down.
No can do, she said.
If your friends systems are capable of this, I'd really appreciate the
contact info of that company.
Thanks Pete,
Newb
Bill McKee
<nob...@nowhere.org> wrote in message
news:9i5vq5hq5aq5f9taj...@4ax.com...
The problems I see of feeding back into the grid are multiple. Matching
frequency precisely. If there is a down line in the grid, and the power is
turned off for repairs, does the lineman die because your grid came online
and fed power backwards? Or your controller burns up, because the grid
looks like a direct short when no power in to the grid.
Jim Wilkins
> ...
> The problems I see of feeding back into the grid are multiple. ...
You'd definitely want a UL-listed commercial product, which solves all
those:
http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/25/learn.asp
jsw
David Lesher
>The problems I see of feeding back into the grid are multiple. Matching
>frequency precisely. If there is a down line in the grid, and the power is
>turned off for repairs, does the lineman die because your grid came online
>and fed power backwards? Or your controller burns up, because the grid
>looks like a direct short when no power in to the grid.
All true. But grid-tie systems are out there, in use.
The question is: what's available in dual mode systems:
a) Grid-tie, feeding power back IFF there is utility power.
b) Power failure mode: supplying the house from solar and battery when the
utility goes down.
sta...@prolynx.com
> <nob...@nowhere.org> wrote in message
>
> news:9i5vq5hq5aq5f9taj...@4ax.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 08:32:32 -0500, spaco <sp...@baldwin-telecom.net>
> > wrote:
>
> >>Your request doesn't seem to be an "off grid" request, but here's my
> >>reply.
>
> >>a.s.photovoltaic is one newsgroup that deals with things solar-PV. You
> >>have to put up with some guys who like to beat eachother up, but if you
> >>persist, you can learn some things.
>
> >>I have two friends within 50 miles of me who have put up 3Kw and 7Kw pv
> >>systems recently.
> >> They are both grid tied. One cost about $40,000 and the other cost
> >>about $70,000. Rebates pay about 1/2 of that back in Wisconsin.
> >> They both supply their local load and do grid tie, but if the power
> >>goes away, neither of them generate for local use.
> >> You have to spend more money to get that feature, I am told.
> >>Also, neither one of them went with batteries. We have a pretty
> >>reliable grid here.
>
> >>Pete Stanaitis
>
> > PNW. I called them wanting a system that feeds back into the grid if
> > there's an excess *and* also provide us power if the grid goes down.
> > No can do, she said.
>
> > If your friends systems are capable of this, I'd really appreciate the
> > contact info of that company.
>
> > Thanks Pete,
>
> > Newb
>
> >>---------------------------------
>
> >>David Lesher wrote:
>
> >>> I'd like to chat offline with someone who has installed a solar
> >>> array system that feeds your load AND backfeeds to the grid
> >>> {"meter backwards"}.
>
> >>> And/or, I'm looking for a pointer to forums [formi??] centered
> >>> around such.
>
> The problems I see of feeding back into the grid are multiple. Matching
> frequency precisely. If there is a down line in the grid, and the power is
> turned off for repairs, does the lineman die because your grid came online
> and fed power backwards? Or your controller burns up, because the grid
>
> - Show quoted text -
All things that need to be considered and engineered in. The
frequency matching is easy, doesn't even take fancy computer
controls. One way to isolate the home side from the line is to use
the line frquency as the determining factor. It has to match that
anyway. Absence causes a mechanical trip and isolates the home side.
Require a manual reset AND line voltage presence to link again.
Presumably, if line voltage is there, there's no lineman handling
wires to toast somewhere.
What this sort of thing requires is a battery set, cells somewhere
between aquarium and swimming pool size. And all the maintenance and
proper venting that requires. Nothing like a hydogen explosion to
ruin your evening. Your charging device(s) would charge the
batteries, as and when possible, and a whopping big sine-wave inverter
would provide the AC, with synchronization provided by the line.
Battery cost is usually the killer here, they start going downhill as
soon as they're wet, 5-10 years would probably be a good lifetime.
Wonder if Edison cells would have a market these days? Railroads used
them in a lot of high-reliabiity, low-maintenance roles.
Stan
Jim Wilkins
> ...
> Wonder if Edison cells would have a market these days? Railroads used
> them in a lot of high-reliabiity, low-maintenance roles.
>
> Stan
Nickel-iron cells are available, but look at the price:
http://www.beutilityfree.com/content/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=44&Itemid=129
I can buy deep-discharge lead acid batteries for <1/10 of that.
NiCads are too hazardous for DIY construction.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadmium_poisoning
jsw
nob...@nowhere.org
<wb8...@panix.com> wrote:
>"Bill McKee" <bmckee...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>
>
>
>>The problems I see of feeding back into the grid are multiple. Matching
>>frequency precisely. If there is a down line in the grid, and the power is
>>turned off for repairs, does the lineman die because your grid came online
>>and fed power backwards? Or your controller burns up, because the grid
>>looks like a direct short when no power in to the grid.
>
>All true. But grid-tie systems are out there, in use.
Yes it is, there's a growing industry relating to that in Europe too.
Germany is setting up solar systems on homes and buildings just for
this purpose, mini power generation systems feeding the grid for
distribution to where it's needed. That technology is here.
>The question is: what's available in dual mode systems:
>
>a) Grid-tie, feeding power back IFF there is utility power.
>
>b) Power failure mode: supplying the house from solar and battery when the
>utility goes down.
Exactly. If anyone knows a company that can provide both features,
I'd sure appreciate their contact info.
The way I figure this is that it would be a shame to have an excess of
solar generated power go to waste. I plan to over build this system
in order to ensure we'll always have as much as we'll need.
Thanks,
Newb
Jim Wilkins
> ...
> Exactly. If anyone knows a company that can provide both features,
> I'd sure appreciate their contact info.
> Newb
A link is in my previous posting.
jsw
dan
rec.crafts.metalworking mine and will die if we don't mount a rescue
by Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:15:40 -0700:
>>The question is: what's available in dual mode systems:
>>
>>a) Grid-tie, feeding power back IFF there is utility power.
>>
>>b) Power failure mode: supplying the house from solar and battery when the
>>utility goes down.
>
>Exactly. If anyone knows a company that can provide both features,
>I'd sure appreciate their contact info.
If you had a grid tie system that won't let you generate independently
of the grid, could you run a small generator to simulate a live grid?
You would need to use the usual transfer switch to cut out the dead
utility grid, then start the generator. The grid tie inverters would
then 'see' a live "grid".
--
Dan H.
northshore MA.
Martin H. Eastburn
Martin
Michael A. Terrell
"Martin H. Eastburn" wrote:
>
> And NiCads have memory.
Only when their charging is abused. This belief came from early
failures aboard satellites and was traced to the very controlled
charge/discharge cycles which damaged the cells.
--
Lead free solder is Belgium's version of 'Hold my beer and watch this!'
Joseph Gwinn
"Martin H. Eastburn" <lion...@consolidated.net> wrote:
> And NiCads have memory.
Caused by widespread misunderstanding of how to handle them in a circuit design.
See the ³Video Battery Handbook² from Anton Bauer:
<http://www.antonbauer.com/Downloads>.
Joe Gwinn
Jim Wilkins
wrote:
> "Martin H. Eastburn" wrote:
>
> > And NiCads have memory.
>
> Only when their charging is abused. This belief came from early
> failures aboard satellites and was traced to the very controlled
> charge/discharge cycles which damaged the cells.
They charged when the spacecraft was in sunlight and discharged when
it passed through Earth's shadow, so the cycle was exactly the same
for each orbit. Memory is difficult to recreate in the lab.
jsw
Larry Jaques
<joeg...@comcast.net> scrawled the following:
>In article <6Edsn.289963$Hq1.2...@en-nntp-04.dc1.easynews.com>,
> "Martin H. Eastburn" <lion...@consolidated.net> wrote:
>
>> And NiCads have memory.
>
>Caused by widespread misunderstanding of how to handle them in a circuit design.
>
>See the �Video Battery Handbook� from Anton Bauer:
><http://www.antonbauer.com/Downloads>.
That link flaked on me (defaulted to 'choose country' map) but I was
able to find the ebook. Good one, Joe.
The Dionic 160 warning was eye-opening, too. Our gov't, in its
ultimate wisdom, can forbid the boarding of a plane with those
dangerous, exploding lithium type batteries unless specific rules are
followed to the letter. From the DOT manual:
"All batteries, wet, dry, nonspillable, and lithium, must be securely
packaged with the equipment in such a way that prevents the dangerous
evolution of heat and protects against short circuits, or the
batteries must be properly installed in the equipment.
Properly cushion items to prevent shifting.
The equipment must be designed, packaged, and be in proper condition
so that no dangerous evolution of heat, fumes, gases, or fire will
result. Leave devices in the �off� position. The device may not
operate on its own or short circuit the battery in it. This can be
achieved by engaging a trigger lock or disabling the power button/
switch. Batteries may not be recharged during transportation.
Batteries packed in equipment may not exceed certain weight limits:
Lithium batteries in equipment: 5kg net (passenger air/rail), 35kg net
(cargo air)
Lithium batteries packed with equipment: 5kg net (passenger air/rail),
35kg gross (cargo air)
Wet batteries: 30kg gross (passenger air/rail), no limit by cargo air
Dry batteries and Nonspillable batteries: no limit
Important sections pertaining to batteries installed in and packaged
with equipment:
�� 172.102, (Special Provisions 134, 157, 188, 189, A101, A103, and
A104),
173.185(b) and (c ), and 173.220(d)."
Note the requirement of a TRIGGER LOCK. Are these f**ks paranoid, or
what?
--
Everything I did in my life that was worthwhile I caught hell for.
-- Earl Warren
Jim Wilkins
> ...The device may not
> operate on its own or short circuit the battery in it. This can be
> achieved by engaging a trigger lock or disabling the power button/
> switch. Batteries may not be recharged during transportation.
>
> Note the requirement of a TRIGGER LOCK. Are these f**ks paranoid, or
> what?
I believe that means two separate actions are needed to activate the
switch, rubbing against something isn't enough. My chain saw has one
that's like the grip safety on a 1911.
I test batteries, sometimes to destruction. Those regulations aren't
unreasonable. Aircraft rules attempt to minimize the fuel ignition
risk in a crash, which can occur without warning on takeoff or
landing. The Concorde is an example.
You should see how the fire department responds to an alarm at Segway,
because of all the lithium batteries there.
jsw