MIG at home garage legality
unix
Just wondering if I need to notify town authorities if I was to set up
a small MIG kit in my garage to weld stainless sculptures for resale.
What I'm afraid of is that they will deny me claiming some sort of
residential fire hazard. Have any here had issues with your
locallity???
Thanks
Ron
Jim Wilkins
Operating a business could be a bigger problem.
Tim Wescott
None. Set up a huge noise smelly shop and there may be issues. Don't
observe good fire safety precautions (i.e. put a wooden welding bench up
against a wall without drywall) _and_ get a complaint to the local fire
martial, and you'll have issues.
Running a business is a gray area -- you should get a variance to do
that in most towns, but in most towns if it doesn't show from outside
your house, and you don't have any real retail traffic, and no neighbors
complain, then you won't have a problem.
Now: be really stupid with fire safety, and burn your place down -- then
you may find your _insurance_ claim denied. But that won't have
anything to do with the town. Anyway, you want to use a metal bench,
and keep flammables away, and do your welding in a room with nice thick
sheetrock on the walls and all that good stuff -- right?
--
Tim Wescott
Control system and signal processing consulting
www.wescottdesign.com
Ignoramus21954
> None. Set up a huge noise smelly shop and there may be issues. Don't
> observe good fire safety precautions (i.e. put a wooden welding bench up
> against a wall without drywall) _and_ get a complaint to the local fire
> martial, and you'll have issues.
If I was in a spaceship headed to Mars, I would definitely appreciate
having a fire martial aboard. Especially if I had a welder on that
spaceship.
Which kind of brings up a question, can one weld in weightlessness.
i
Wes
>Which kind of brings up a question, can one weld in weightlessness.
Maybe spot welding and friction welding. I'm betting agaist MIG.
Oh, since I'm assuming we are in space in some sort of vessel, what is the atmosphere we
working with?
Wes
Tim Wescott
Maybe not MIG -- maybe just go outside, make sure everything is clean,
and do _unshielded_ metal-arc welding in the vacuum. Seems like welding
inside would crap up the atmosphere pretty quick, although if you just
had to I suppose you'd need to.
Maybe before we go to Mars NASA needs to develop a JB Weld that'll work
in a vacuum.
SMAW may be needed, and work, in a vacuum. It would be handy to add the
neato alloying elements that come from the stick coating, but I bet
you'd need special coatings to work.
Bill Janssen
Bill K7NOM
Steve B
"unix" <uni...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:db1da9ab-8990-40a4...@x42g2000vba.googlegroups.com...
It all depends on your neighborhood. If you are close to neighbors, they
might object to the sparks and noise and smoke. Basically, you can do
anything you can get away with. But once a call has been made to zoning or
the FD, it's on file, and after that, you're subject to fines.
As for asking permission, it is a bad idea, and I am sure they would tell
you no. Some standard issues are: you cannot keep "stock in trade" at your
home; you cannot increase the traffic to the neighborhood; you need to be
cleared by the FD (which will be impossible); you need to be licensed, and
what you want to do is considered manufacturing, and a residential zone
cannot be a manufacturing zone.
"claiming some sort of residential fire hazard?" Melting metal past its
melting point is definitely a fire hazard, and dangerous even in a properly
equipped shop.
Unless you live in a rural area, or have a shop removed from the house, or
just have good neighbors, it doesn't sound like your idea is plausible. The
first time someone makes a phone call, it's all over. And SHOULD you have
some accidental fire and FD comes out and finds the cause, you can be fined
pretty severely.
Steve
JIMMIE
> Wes wrote:
Hand held electron beam welding. I always thought it would be fun to
have a tube transmitter in space with no envelopes on the tubes.
Jimmie
Wes
>As for asking permission, it is a bad idea, and I am sure they would tell
>you no.
Never ask for permission, they might get the idea that they have the power to grant or
deny it.
"It's easier to ask forgiveness than it is to get permission" is often attributed to Grace
Hopper. The lady and officer had a clue.
Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller
DT
ignoram...@NOSPAM.21954.invalid says...
Good question, Iggy! I was the Facility Manager for NASA's Zero Gravity
Research Facility during the 1990s. We supported the Combustion Science
and Fluid Physics branches. I don't believe I ever heard any mention of
a welding experiemnt, I think you could get a grant or two out of that
idea!
There were some molten alloy experiments (not at our facility, they
took too long), but they were concerned with the solidification process,
which can produce dentrites (metal hairs within the pool). In general
alloys mix better because the heavier elements do not sink and they were
seeking super alloys because of the better distribution.
Welding in low Gs would certainly be different. There would of course be
the tendency for the pool to float away, but the cooling metal would be
driven by various forces like the arc blow, surface tension, etc instead
of gravity. It would cool slower because of the lack of convection.
--
DT
dca...@krl.org
>
> It all depends on your neighborhood. If you are close to neighbors, they
> might object to the sparks and noise and smoke. Basically, you can do
> anything you can get away with. But once a call has been made to zoning or
> the FD, it's on file, and after that, you're subject to fines.
>
> Unless you live in a rural area, or have a shop removed from the house, or
> just have good neighbors, it doesn't sound like your idea is plausible. The
> first time someone makes a phone call, it's all over. And SHOULD you have
> some accidental fire and FD comes out and finds the cause, you can be fined
> pretty severely.
>
> Steve
I have never had a problem. I do try not to make a lot of noise
before about 8 am and stopped about 8 pm. With MIG you should have
almost no smoke or sparks and very little noise, but bashing the
stainless into shape before welding could be a problem.
It isn't as if you are going to be making a lot more noise than a lawn
mower or leaf blower.
Dan
Bill McKee
"Tim Wescott" <t...@seemywebsite.now> wrote in message
news:IumdnbsujcDQPCLW...@web-ster.com...
Maybe even easier to weld in space. Outside that is. No shielding gas
required. Maybe some flux depending on the material. Biggest problem would
be weighlessness. the weld pool may not pool. Just float away from the
welding pressures.
Wes
>Maybe even easier to weld in space. Outside that is. No shielding gas
>required. Maybe some flux depending on the material. Biggest problem would
>be weighlessness. the weld pool may not pool. Just float away from the
>welding pressures.
So now we need an external centrifuge to create artificial gravity. So far so good.
Better get a good welders coat for the space suit, it would stink to get a bit of splatter
melting though the suit.
Wes
Wes
One tip, don't tell your neighbors what you are doing. You never know when one knows he
missed his chance to be part of the Schutzstaffel and you are his chance to revel in the
perceived glory of being a defender of the 'nothing is allowed unless it is approved
thinking' we are sliding into by complaining to the authorities (bureaucrats).
After running your MIG, don't just head into the house. Take some time to say in the
garage to make sure you didn't start the makings of a fire.
When I had a welder, I did it outside of the garage with the doors shut. Too darn many
things inside the garage to catch fire or smolder.
You sound like a candidate for living outside the town. Life is a bit less regulatory out
there.
Oh, post links to pictures of your sculpture when you finish one. We like seeing
metalworking when we are not arguing about other things.
Wes
Ignoramus21954
> Maybe even easier to weld in space. Outside that is. No shielding gas
> required. Maybe some flux depending on the material. Biggest problem would
> be weighlessness. the weld pool may not pool. Just float away from the
> welding pressures.
The arc needs gas to sustain itself, no? I thought that vacuum was not
able to conduct any current.
i
Michael Koblic
"unix" <uni...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:db1da9ab-8990-40a4...@x42g2000vba.googlegroups.com...
My insurance specifies no welding within 25 feet of the buildings.
--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC
John
Wear your space suit and go outside and get some perfect non
contaminated welds... Just don't burn a hole in your suit. :)
John
dan
rec.crafts.metalworking mine and will die if we don't mount a rescue
by Fri, 9 Apr 2010 16:12:17 -0700:
>
>"unix" <uni...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:db1da9ab-8990-40a4...@x42g2000vba.googlegroups.com...
>> I'm a newbie to welding...
>>
>> Just wondering if I need to notify town authorities if I was to set up
>> a small MIG kit in my garage to weld stainless sculptures for resale.
>> What I'm afraid of is that they will deny me claiming some sort of
>> residential fire hazard. Have any here had issues with your
>> locallity???
>>
>> Thanks
>> Ron
>
>It all depends on your neighborhood. If you are close to neighbors, they
>might object to the sparks and noise and smoke. Basically, you can do
>anything you can get away with. But once a call has been made to zoning or
>the FD, it's on file, and after that, you're subject to fines.
>
>As for asking permission, it is a bad idea, and I am sure they would tell
>you no. Some standard issues are: you cannot keep "stock in trade" at your
>home; you cannot increase the traffic to the neighborhood; you need to be
>cleared by the FD (which will be impossible); you need to be licensed, and
>what you want to do is considered manufacturing, and a residential zone
>cannot be a manufacturing zone.
Right. The major problem is the selling. If you were just making
things for yourself, doing home repairs, etc. you would be OK.
If you had a steel beam in your garage that needed welding and you
called in someone to fix it, you would be OK. Big welding truck,
engine driven welder, sparks all over.
If you were sewing dolls for a craft fair, you would be OK.
But welding is thought of as an industrial process so you might run
into problems.
Don't ask, don't tell. Keep quiet, cover the windows, fireproof as
much as you can.
--
Dan H.
northshore MA.
Steve B
<dca...@krl.org> wrote in message
news:fe5b1735-efaf-4a0d...@f17g2000vbd.googlegroups.com...
Dan
I lived in a neighborhood and did ornamental metal out of my garage before I
went into business. No one complained, and it was a "tight" neighborhood,
meaning the houses were close together.
So, you may do it, and have no problems. The issue starts when ANYONE calls
zoning and starts any paperwork. Or, God forbid, you have a fire.
Thinking back on it now, I had some great neighbors because you know how
much racket a chop saw makes, and I was doing a lot of work.
Keep it reasonable, keep it out of sight as much as possible, and hope for
the best. And don't weld at night. It's a dead give-away.
Almost no smoke or sparks from MIG and very little noise?
Steve
Bob La Londe
news:dd67e62c-404b-46fc...@z7g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
If you are not doing retail and won't have employees... KEEP YOUR MOUTH
SHUT.
Ned Simmons
wrote:
In my town what you're proposing would be considered a home
occupation, as long as the activity doesn't occupy more than 25% of
your residence or more than 900 sq feet in an accessory structure.
Home occupations are allowed anyplace in town, and no notification or
permit is required. Clearly, as others have mentioned, there are
plenty of places with more restrictive regs. The only way to know for
sure is to look into your local ordinances. If you're inclined to go
ahead despite what you find, read the ordinances yourself rather than
tipping off your codes officer by asking questions.
A bigger problem can be restrictive covenants in your deed, so look
there as well.
--
Ned Simmons
Larry Jaques
<uni...@yahoo.com> scrawled the following:
Check with your city and state business offices about costs and
requirements for starting a business. Then check with your insurance
agent about insuring such a business in your home. You'll probably
need commercial coverage and have to install fire prevention measures.
(Tubafores and drywall _will_ catch fire without too much fuss. Your
plastic gas tank will melt and flame up if a piece of flaming metal
welding wire hits it, etc.)
What city/country/continent/island is this we're talking about? ;)
--
Climb the mountains and get their good tidings. Nature's peace
will flow into you as sunshine flows into trees. The winds will
blow their own freshness into you, and the storms their energy,
while cares will drop away from you like the leaves of Autumn.
-- John Muir
Larry Jaques
<ignoram...@NOSPAM.21954.invalid> scrawled the following:
Not recommended. (Arc Welding 101 was taught on Apollo 1)
RIP, guys.
Larry Jaques
<desertt...@dishynail.net> scrawled the following:
>>As for asking permission, it is a bad idea, and I am sure they would tell
>>you no.
>
>Never ask for permission, they might get the idea that they have the power to grant or
>deny it.
With the city, probably. What about the insurance agent who covers
the fire? ("I was welding a project" would probably fly, getting your
damage paid for. "I was welding a product I sell" would probably get
you in trouble.)
Gunner Asch
wrote:
Or simply build a welding "pod" and spin it while you are welding.
It wouldnt be that big a deal to build the first one..and after
that..the rest are dead simple.
Gunner
"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.
This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost
Wes
>
>With the city, probably. What about the insurance agent who covers
>the fire? ("I was welding a project" would probably fly, getting your
>damage paid for. "I was welding a product I sell" would probably get
>you in trouble.)
If you are running a business out of your garage, without the correct insurance, the
learning experience will be expen$ive.
Wes
Steve B
"Larry Jaques" <lja...@diversify.invalid> wrote in message
news:5f00s5pc43i2bd3kl...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 09 Apr 2010 19:22:49 -0400, the infamous "Steve B"
> <desertt...@dishynail.net> scrawled the following:
>
>>>As for asking permission, it is a bad idea, and I am sure they would tell
>>>you no.
>>
>>Never ask for permission, they might get the idea that they have the power
>>to grant or
>>deny it.
>
> With the city, probably. What about the insurance agent who covers
> the fire? ("I was welding a project" would probably fly, getting your
> damage paid for. "I was welding a product I sell" would probably get
> you in trouble.)
>
Two words I hate: should and probably. I think that the claim would be
denied either way.
Steve
Andrew VK3BFA
> I'm a newbie to welding...
>
> Just wondering if I need to notify town authorities if I was to set up
> a small MIG kit in my garage to weld stainless sculptures for resale.
> What I'm afraid of is that they will deny me claiming some sort of
> residential fire hazard. Have any here had issues with your
> locallity???
>
> Ron
Bloody Hell Ron - dont be a wimp, just do it - if the authorities get
upset, they will tell you...saves time if you dont ask permission...
Andrew VK3BFA.
Joseph Gwinn
"Bill McKee" <bmckee...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
I think that surface tension will keep the weld puddle in place.
Joe Gwinn
Joseph Gwinn
Ignoramus21954 <ignoram...@NOSPAM.21954.invalid> wrote:
The arc would be through the metal vapor cloud caused by arc heating.
A stick welder would have no problem scratch-starting in vacuum. Likewise a MIG
welder.
TIG might have a problem, unless one can scratch-start it, or the start voltage
is high enough (which I doubt for ordinary TIG units). Or, use a puff of argon
for starting only.
NASA has to have thought about this and written a now-forgotten report.
Joe Gwinn
Paul Hovnanian P.E.
Can you weld upside down with a given process?
--
Paul Hovnanian pa...@hovnanian.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Have gnu, will travel.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
If welding steel just put a magnet on the part - not much magnetic
flux required to keep the metal attached with no gravity to make it
flow
jk
> If welding steel just put a magnet on the part - not much magnetic
>flux required to keep the metal attached with no gravity to make it
>flow
Except that you are past the Curie point in the "puddle" aren't you?
jk
DoN. Nichols
> On Sat, 10 Apr 2010 12:06:25 -0400, Joseph Gwinn
><joeg...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>In article <1_GdnWDJRcGFWCLW...@earthlink.com>,
>> "Bill McKee" <bmckee...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>
>>> "Tim Wescott" <t...@seemywebsite.now> wrote in message
>>> news:IumdnbsujcDQPCLW...@web-ster.com...
>>> > Wes wrote:
>>> >> Ignoramus21954 <ignoram...@NOSPAM.21954.invalid> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>> Which kind of brings up a question, can one weld in weightlessness.
[ ... ]
>>> > Maybe not MIG -- maybe just go outside, make sure everything is clean, and
>>> > do _unshielded_ metal-arc welding in the vacuum. Seems like welding
>>> > inside would crap up the atmosphere pretty quick, although if you just had
>>> > to I suppose you'd need to.
[ ... ]
>>> > SMAW may be needed, and work, in a vacuum. It would be handy to add the
>>> > neato alloying elements that come from the stick coating, but I bet you'd
>>> > need special coatings to work.
[ ... ]
>>> Maybe even easier to weld in space. Outside that is. No shielding gas
>>> required. Maybe some flux depending on the material. Biggest problem would
>>> be weighlessness. the weld pool may not pool. Just float away from the
>>> welding pressures.
>>
>>I think that surface tension will keep the weld puddle in place.
Maybe -- what are the forces created by the arc (assuming that
you can strike an arc in vacuum)?
> If welding steel just put a magnet on the part - not much magnetic
> flux required to keep the metal attached with no gravity to make it
> flow
Would the puddle not be above the curie point? No magnetic
response to help you.
Enjoy,
DoN.
--
Email: <dnic...@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
Bill McKee
"Paul Hovnanian P.E." <pa...@hovnanian.com> wrote in message
news:55adnay-FeV3IF3W...@posted.isomediainc...
True you can weld upside down. But you may have faster cooling from the
convection and maybe more surface pressure. If any gas generated in the
welding, it would have a tendency to blow the metal all directions.
Joseph Gwinn
wrote:
As many have noted, the weld puddle metal will be well above the Curie point,
and so will not be magnetic. Loss of magnetism is a classic way to tell that a
piece of steel is hot enough to be quenched during hardening.
Joe Gwinn
Jim Wilkins
> ...
> Maybe -- what are the forces created by the arc (assuming that
> you can strike an arc in vacuum)?
> DoN.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_arc_remelting
jsw
dan
rec.crafts.metalworking mine and will die if we don't mount a rescue
Naw. If you can weld overhead, where gravity is working against you,
welding without gravity shouldn't be a problem.
DoN. Nichols
O.K. So you can start an arc in a near vacuum (1-100 uMeters of
mercury is pretty small), but this says nothing about what happens in
zero gravity with the earth's magnetic field (in near space) applying
forces to the current and the metal.
Jim Wilkins
> On 2010-04-11, Jim Wilkins <kb1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Apr 10, 11:50 pm, "DoN. Nichols" <dnich...@d-and-d.com> wrote:
> >> ...
> >> Maybe -- what are the forces created by the arc (assuming that
> >> you can strike an arc in vacuum)?
> >> ...
> >> DoN.
>
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_arc_remelting
>
> O.K. So you can start an arc in a near vacuum (1-100 uMeters of
> mercury is pretty small), but this says nothing about what happens in
> zero gravity with the earth's magnetic field (in near space) applying
> forces to the current and the metal.
>
> Enjoy,
> DoN.
While looking I saw several abstracts of articles on microgravity
welding experiments, subscription required to read the full text.
jsw
unix
> <dcas...@krl.org> wrote in message
Thanks. Really good info. Just a follow up question..... My garage is
not attached to my house and is built into a rock hill with the front
door being the only opening. Thus, the only ventilation I have is the
front door. If I keep it closed while doing welds, will the gasses
cause problems? Plan is to do a few quick welds and open the door to
air out.
Bill McKee
You want ventilation while welding. Get a fan. A bathroom fan would work
and run some flexible duct from the fan mounted in an exterior wall to the
weld area. Then suck the fumes as you weld. Commercially is very similar
to what is done. But good fans to exchange air in building.
Steve B
"unix" <uni...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:fc5d9548-8768-48a8...@x2g2000vbe.googlegroups.com...
reply: Just remember that all that smoke goes somewhere, and some of it
ends up in your lungs. I would make an exhaust fan somewhere, and run it
while welding just to keep any smoke at a continuous low unnoticeable level.
If you stick, you will have more smoke. Don't have a strong draft on the
MIG welding area. Even those whirlybird exhausts work pretty good for
sucking out the smoke.
Steve