Dual Saw -- anyone use one?
Existential Angst
I haven't, but for the life of me, all I see are *disadvantages* to this
gadget.
The first is, of course, cost.
This thing is triple the cost of a 7 1/4" circ saw, with blades that are 4-6
times the cost of std circ saw blades. Not to mention the lack of
availability.
Next, I can't see that it can do *anything* that a circ saw cannot do. In
fact, a lot less, and with a lot less accuracy.
The only ""advantage" is that the blade is teeny, so you have lower sfpm,
and can get away with cutting rebar, etc -- and I wonder for how long,
before the blade goes kaput.
It has no plate for straight cuts, no mitre, it is basically a 4 1/2"
grinder with a trim saw blade -- $19 from HF.
They never say what the blade size is, but it looks 4.5 - 5".
As always, the infomercial is highly misleading. You cannot do sink-type
cutouts without using a jig saw -- pure geometry of a circular blade.
True, it could reduce kickback, in case of a snag, or cutting unsupported
"in air", but I never had a problem with that either.
That "spark test" with gasoline was fraud.
Another infomercial hustle, afaict.
But if there are different experiences, do tell.
--
EA
cncmillgil
wrote:
I had a post about this a few months back in AMC. Its a bust.
Maybe Vince(sham-wow, slap chop) can show it off? Got that camera guy?
http://users.cin.net/~milgil/CNC_xmas.jpg
http://users.cin.net/~milgil/Santa_checkup.jpg
--
ª"˜¨¨¯¯¨¨˜"ª¤(¯`*•.¸(¯`*•.¸ Gil© ¸.•*´¯)¸.•*´¯)¤ª"˜¨¨¯¯¨¨˜"ª
Smitty Two
"Existential Angst" <UNfi...@UNoptonline.net> wrote:
We've done the dual saw thread at least twice recently on a.h.r. Check
the archives.
Red Green
news:8dec96ef-db5e-4997...@l13g2000yqb.googlegroups.com:
"You're gonna love my nuts."
> �"��������"��(�`*�.�(�`*�.� Gil� �.�*��)�.�*��)��"��������"�
>
>
>
>
Steve B
"Smitty Two" <prest...@earthlink.net> wrote
> We've done the dual saw thread at least twice recently on a.h.r. Check
> the archives.
We've also talked about just about everything else. Let's just disband the
newsgroup. And while we're at it, I think the patent office should be
closed too. Everything's been invented.
Use your Subject window to see if you want to follow the thread or not. If
it says, "Free videos of sex with small farm animals", can you intelligently
guess what the thread will be about?
I knewwwwwwwwwwwwwww you could.
Steve ;-)
Existential Angst
news:8dec96ef-db5e-4997...@l13g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
================================
I caught a thread on rec.woodworking, and apparently a lot of people who
should know better don't know how to use a circular saw, and/or just don't
get the concept..
A very sophisticated mechanism, that accomplishes.... what????
What's inneresting to me is that this thing is bogus from *first
principles*, like effing perpetual motion -- altho at first blush it does
show some promise..
But instead you get these big long voice-of-effing-reason """objective"""
posts/reviews, from assholes who just don't effing get it.
I *did* miss the obvious, however, these things are made with spit, and
these companies are set up to sodomize you with your own credit card.
The motors are crap, and the blades DON'T last through steel, esp. rebar,
bar stock -- not at 6,000 rpm with a 5" diameter.
Sears apparently made one years ago, discontinued it, brought it back in
various forms.
But ultimately, this pos is just a 4.5" angle grinder, with a toothed blade.
$19 from HF.
AND, just how useful is an angle grinder with a toothed blade? visavis a
regular circular saw?
PV's Law:
ANYTHING on an infomercial is crap.
ANYTHING over-advertised (Geico, Progressive, freecreditreport.com,
Nautuilus TreadClimber) is crap. The money that should be infused into the
product is instead spent on hype.
Really just the arithmetic of immutable economics.
--
EA, not PV'd this time
�"��������"��(�`*�.�(�`*�.� Gil� �.�*��)�.�*��)��"��������"�
RicodJour
wrote:
>
> I caught a thread on rec.woodworking, and apparently a lot of people who
> should know better don't know how to use a circular saw, and/or just don't
> get the concept..
> A very sophisticated mechanism, that accomplishes.... what????
What thread was that? Post a link, please.
> What's inneresting to me is that this thing is bogus from *first
> principles*, like effing perpetual motion -- altho at first blush it does
> show some promise..
> But instead you get these big long voice-of-effing-reason """objective"""
> posts/reviews, from assholes who just don't effing get it.
>
> I *did* miss the obvious, however, these things are made with spit, and
> these companies are set up to sodomize you with your own credit card.
> The motors are crap, and the blades DON'T last through steel, esp. rebar,
> bar stock -- not at 6,000 rpm with a 5" diameter.
>
> Sears apparently made one years ago, discontinued it, brought it back in
> various forms.
>
> But ultimately, this pos is just a 4.5" angle grinder, with a toothed blade.
> $19 from HF.
> AND, just how useful is an angle grinder with a toothed blade? visavis a
> regular circular saw?
>
> PV's Law:
> ANYTHING on an infomercial is crap.
> ANYTHING over-advertised (Geico, Progressive, freecreditreport.com,
> Nautuilus TreadClimber) is crap. The money that should be infused into the
> product is instead spent on hype.
> Really just the arithmetic of immutable economics.
The Little Giant Ladder and the Fein Multimaster were sold on
infomercials, as was the Chia Pet. Please explain what sucks about
those items.
R
Existential Angst
news:851a1f07-48c2-42e0...@e22g2000vbm.googlegroups.com...
=============================
Uhhh, the..... PRICE???????? just as a start.....
--
EA
RicodJour
wrote:
> "RicodJour" <ricodj...@worldemail.com> wrote in message
> On Dec 10, 2:14 pm, "Existential Angst" <UNfit...@UNoptonline.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I caught a thread on rec.woodworking, and apparently a lot of people who
> > should know better don't know how to use a circular saw, and/or just don't
> > get the concept..
> > A very sophisticated mechanism, that accomplishes.... what????
>
> What thread was that? Post a link, please.
I'm curious who on the rec doesn't know how to use a circular saw.
Please provide the link, or tell me the thread's subject line.
Thanks.
Your quoting skills are atrocious. You decorate and obfuscate instead
of just quoting like everyone else. Be that as it may...
You said all stuff on infomercials was crap - fine, you don't like the
price of those products, but what's wrong with them?
R
Smitty Two
"Steve B" <desert...@dishmail.net> wrote:
What, did a welding spark fly up your ass, Steve? That does it, I'm
leaving town for some T & A.
Existential Angst
=============================================
for some reason, your posts are not quotable. Which is proly just as well.
---------------------------
You said all stuff on infomercials was crap - fine, you don't like the
price of those products, but what's wrong with them?
==============================================
Bang fer yer buck that is 1/10 the bang/buck of "traditional" tools = crap
and/or ripoff.
Bang fer yer buck = performance divided by $$.
Either low perf or excessively high $$ = crap and/or ripoff.
--
EA
R
RicodJour
No one else seems to have the problem - just as well.
I see there's no link to that thread you mentioned, so I'll assume
that the BS about people on the REC not knowing how to use a circular
saw is just you blowing smoke.
I bought both the Little Giant ladder and the Fein Mulitmaster before
their patents ran out when there were no comparable tools. I did not
buy them from infomercials. The Little Giant I picked up at a trade
show, and the Fein was bought used. Both are anything but crap and I
would have liked to have had both years earlier. They would have
saved me both time and money in the long run. Now that the patents
have run out there are competing products, and you can get into
similar tools for less money. As far as I have seen, none of the
competing products have the same quality. You aren't willing to pay
for the quality - that's not my concern.
R
Existential Angst
=========================================
Dude, take a 'lude, and do a search like I did. HTF do I know the exact
thread? google is a fukn mess.
It may not have been rec.woodworking... coulda been alt. or whatever.
goodgawd....
--------------------------------------
I bought both the Little Giant ladder and the Fein Mulitmaster before
their patents ran out when there were no comparable tools. I did not
buy them from infomercials. The Little Giant I picked up at a trade
show, and the Fein was bought used. Both are anything but crap and I
would have liked to have had both years earlier. They would have
saved me both time and money in the long run. Now that the patents
have run out there are competing products, and you can get into
similar tools for less money. As far as I have seen, none of the
competing products have the same quality. You aren't willing to pay
for the quality - that's not my concern.
======================================
Sounds to me like you are very happy "buying the price" -- more power to
you.
But, I'm happy that you're happy.
I'm even happier that we are not neighbors. goodgawd.....
--
EA
R
Steve W.
> No one else seems to have the problem - just as well.
>
> I see there's no link to that thread you mentioned, so I'll assume
> that the BS about people on the REC not knowing how to use a circular
> saw is just you blowing smoke.
>
> I bought both the Little Giant ladder and the Fein Mulitmaster before
> their patents ran out when there were no comparable tools. I did not
> buy them from infomercials. The Little Giant I picked up at a trade
> show, and the Fein was bought used. Both are anything but crap and I
> would have liked to have had both years earlier. They would have
> saved me both time and money in the long run. Now that the patents
> have run out there are competing products, and you can get into
> similar tools for less money. As far as I have seen, none of the
> competing products have the same quality. You aren't willing to pay
> for the quality - that's not my concern.
>
> R
Have two of the Little Giant ladders myself. Plus one of the planks.
Best ladders I have EVER owned. Makes all the other ladders out there
look like crap. I also know of a lot of fire companies that are getting
them because of the build quality.
--
Steve W.
Wild_Bill
diamond plated aluminum, and almost everyone knows how hard diamond is.
I think they claim 8 years and millions of dollars to develop the DualSaw..
yeah, right.
--
WB
.........
metalworking projects
www.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html
"Existential Angst" <UNfi...@UNoptonline.net> wrote in message
news:4b20b69e$0$22524$607e...@cv.net...
Existential Angst
news:V2sUm.147066$mn3....@en-nntp-03.dc1.easynews.com...
> The most important point of the infomercial was missed.. the DualSaw cuts
> diamond plated aluminum, and almost everyone knows how hard diamond is.
>
> I think they claim 8 years and millions of dollars to develop the
> DualSaw.. yeah, right.
I was actually going to mention that as a kind of proof of deceptive
intent -- but then RicodJour mighta bunched up his panties so tight, he
mighta hurt himself.
And where there is smoke there is fire.
Even when everything else seems/sounds above board and kosher, one willful
piece of neglect fact-wise usually is just the tip of the conjob iceberg.
Like fitness infomercials, where they can't even get the name of the muscle
right. Which dudn't really matter, being that they are just one long string
of illusion, allusion, and non sequiturs.
The Genesis, I believe:
Tony Little changed the shape (heh) of the marketing and advertising world.
He sold millions of Ab Isolators, being so pudgy he had to wear a shiny
Lycra body suit.
That's like... that's like..... that's as absurd as a tobacco company
telling you not to smoke.
Hey.... wait a minute.... Big Tobaccer IS telling us not to smoke!!!
Holy shit.....
Well, anyway, both prove my point:
We live in a BizarroLand of logic, which is heaven come to earth fer
yer local marketeer.
Tony Little demonstrated this BizarroLand Logic in what could have been the
greatest marketing experiment ever performed -- advertising has never been
the same since.
And, if TV were the hypnotist's pendulum, then the Internet is a surgical
brain probe -- the situation is orders of magnitude worser now.
Marketeers can not only sell snow to an Eskimo, it won't even be snow!
AND, you won't be able to return it.
AND, not only will your credit card company not reverse the charges, they
may up your interest rate to... oh, 40%, instead of the current 30%, for
being 1. a self-professed idiot, and 2. for being a pita to them, on top of
it all.
More reasons to love Merka.
--
EA
mkir...@rochester.rr.com
wrote:
> Dude, take a 'lude, and do a search like I did. HTF do I know the exact
> thread? google is a fukn mess.
You're the one making the claim. Prove your claim.
Existential Angst
news:6d819f45-34f1-4fe1...@3g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
========================================
And what "claim" would that be?
--
EA
RicodJour
> > that the BS about people on the REC not knowing how to use a circular
> > saw is just you blowing smoke.
>
> thread? google is a fukn mess.
> It may not have been rec.woodworking... coulda been alt. or whatever.
> goodgawd....
Oh, well, then that explains it - the people that don't know how to
use a circular saw were some people somewhere on Usenet. Thanks for
narrowing it down. Sheesh.
Listen, if you're going to do a song and dance, blow smoke, or rant,
have some self respect and do a good job - or at least be
entertaining. Otherwise, find that one person in real life who will
listen to you and blow the hot air on them.
Thanks.
R
Existential Angst
======================================
And what smoke would that be?
That assholes can't recognize a fraud a first blush, and must rely on fukn
controlled studies?
You, for instance?
Dude, get some exercise or sumpn, work off yer stress -- mebbe get a 40 ft
extension ladder this time, work on a cupla chimbleys.....
--
EA
Thanks.
R
Wes
DOWNLOAD my self running demo: http://users.cin.net/~milgil/Holdzem1.exe
Are you nutz?
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller
mm
<UNfi...@UNoptonline.net> wrote:
>
>But ultimately, this pos is just a 4.5" angle grinder, with a toothed blade.
>$19 from HF.
Perhaps you didn't notice that this thing has two blades turning in
opposite directions. That's a bigggg difference from an angle
grinder, and maybe a big difference in performance too.
It seems to me it would make the kerf bigger but make the cut easier
to control.
Existential Angst
news:84l7i5pefr0g1ahg8...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 14:14:04 -0500, "Existential Angst"
> <UNfi...@UNoptonline.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>But ultimately, this pos is just a 4.5" angle grinder, with a toothed
>>blade.
>>$19 from HF.
>
> Perhaps you didn't notice that this thing has two blades turning in
> opposite directions. That's a bigggg difference from an angle
> grinder, and maybe a big difference in performance too.
First, how could one miss this? The infomercial bleats about this almost
non-stop.
Second, note that unless one is plunge cutting *straight down*, one blade
executes a conventional cut, and the other a "climb" cut. This *immediately*
(at least in principle) poses a challenge to the anti-kick/grab claim. Also
the fact that these two blades are cutting two different swaths of material
(albeit directly adjacent) poses a challenge to this claim.
Altho this would have to be tested, I can see a number of situations where
this anti-kick claim becomes handicapped -- IF it is significant to begin
with -- for example, in thick, tough material, and as per the above.
The only thing those spinning blades truly neutralize is angular momentum --
the gyroscope effect.
I'm betting that in a truly objective test, you might find one or two
trivial scenarios where this thing might have an advantage -- like mebbe in
cutting thin unsupported branches/rod with an unsupported saw. Haven't seen
any tree-cutters with this thing on their belt, tho.
I was hoping someone could identify *useful* situations where this thing
actually proved worthwhile.
And THEN try to justify cost/benefit ratio....
Didja see, btw, how a *chain saw* was in that pile of saws they wanted you
to throw away, cuz of the dual saw?? With it's approx. 1" depth cut??
goodgawd....
>
> It seems to me it would make the kerf bigger but make the cut easier
> to control.
You noticed the kerf thing!
Not a big deal, but basically double kerf is double the heat, effort,
blade-dulling -- and material waste. Which is all moot, given how little
most people would use this thing.
Indeed, one of the considerations in sawing is to use the thinnest blade
that will accomplish the task safely,without breakage.
Remember that stunt in the beginning -- the guy cutting himself out of that
flimsy diamond-plate box?
First, I wonder if that was even 1/8" material.
Second, my $40 7 1/4" circular with its $5 carbide blade proly coulda cut
that opening in 1/4 the time, with a much better cut -- iirc, notice they
didn't show closeups of the cut? Dudn't matter, cuz they'd be lying anyway.
I'll bet a real demo would have that cut look like someone went at it,
blind, with a chainsaw -- or an axe.
I made sliding covers for m'truck out of 1/8 diamond plate, but had it
sheared. I have some leftover somewhere, and when I find it, I'll set it
aside to eventually do a pass with a circular saw.
If it cuts aluminum anywhere *near* now my crappy Craftsman 10" RAS cuts 1"
alum plate, I'll think I was cutting balsa.
Utter fraud, imo.
I don't believe ANY fire dept uses these things -- with a 1" depth of cut???
Gimme an effing break.
Uhhhh, hey, this lady is burning up, WHERE'S THE EXTENSION CORD??????
What fire depts DO use are these gonzo gasoline-powered chop/abrasive saws.
--
EA, loving Merka more and more.
RicodJour
wrote:
> "mm" <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
> > On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 14:14:04 -0500, "Existential Angst"
> > <UNfit...@UNoptonline.net> wrote:
>
> >>But ultimately, this pos is just a 4.5" angle grinder, with a toothed
> >>blade. $19 from HF.
>
> > Perhaps you didn't notice that this thing has two blades turning in
> > opposite directions. That's a bigggg difference from an angle
> > grinder, and maybe a big difference in performance too.
>
> First, how could one miss this? The infomercial bleats about this almost
> non-stop.
>
> Second, note that unless one is plunge cutting *straight down*, one blade
> executes a conventional cut, and the other a "climb" cut. This *immediately*
> (at least in principle) poses a challenge to the anti-kick/grab claim. Also
> the fact that these two blades are cutting two different swaths of material
> (albeit directly adjacent) poses a challenge to this claim.
>
> Altho this would have to be tested, I can see a number of situations where
> this anti-kick claim becomes handicapped -- IF it is significant to begin
> with -- for example, in thick, tough material, and as per the above.
> The only thing those spinning blades truly neutralize is angular momentum --
> the gyroscope effect.
I find it most curious that you have such strong opinions on a tool
that you have never laid hands on. Your "*immediately* (at least in
principal)" translates to "I don't know", as do all of your
objections.
Amazon and epinions have lots of reviews on the tool - some people
like it, some don't. At least they have the good graces to give an
opinion after they've used the fookin thing.
If you're taking requests, I'd like to know your detailed opinion -
based on your usual surmise and conjecture - about which car I should
buy next (I'm in the market). There are so many cars to choose from
and, well, your ability to know all about something you've never
touched is close to miraculous. I appreciate the help.
Thanks.
R
Existential Angst
==================================================
Not a problem.
To answer your last Q first: Honda Fit.
Which is sort of a "hybrid clairvoyance": I actually own one, but I also
happen to know it's better than all the other cars I haven't owned.... go
figger, eh? Oh, nearly 50 mpg highway. Incredibly roomy, can haul a lot of
stuff.
Next, when you grok the difference between a "conventional cut" and a "climb
cut", post back -- maybe then we can have an intelligent conversation.
Next, the number of people who loved their Ab Isolators and Gazelles on
epinions et al are uncountable.
Which is funny, cuz dats like buying a top-rated Perpetual Motion machine,
and swearing it lowered your energy bills.
And people WILL swear this!! Ergo, tele-evangelism et al.....
Do I really have to buy one of those and test it out?? The US Patent office
don't think so.
There is a balance between conjecture and experiment, to be sure.
Which is why I *asked* about usage of this bullshit tool, but didn't get
much of a response. You DID notice that there were no challenges to my
analyses, except for your knee-jerk bleating.
Why were there no fav responses to this tool?
Because rubes buy it, buzz it once or twice, and never use it. Or, rubes
buy it for rubes.
No offense to rubes, we all get taken. It just that, for some reason, I
still get shocked at the diabolically concerted effort that these companies
will go through to pick our pockets. Their use of false innuendo and
allusion is nothing short of masterful. Peppered with outright lies.
Dissecting all of that can be quite illuminating if you allow it, which you
won't, apparently.
Also, most of the people on rcm are sophisticated enough to know this tool
is bullshit, and ergo haven't bought one. They may not have beat the
concept to death they way I have, but it's already well-known that I tend
to get my panties bunched up over shit/fraud like this.
If you would like to make this an intelligent conversation, where you or
others could learn a priori instead of ad hoc, thus saving themselves
$250-300, then challenge each of my assertions, conjectures, observations,
to see if they are reasonable, or me just being a.... well, me being a
*you*.
Watching and analyzing these near-criminal infomercials is really
interesting, even fun. Even the experienced can scratch their heads for a
while, trying to nail down the logical flaws. If you noticed, my posts got
more critical as time progressed, because the material/concepts had time to
gel, and it becomes more apparent how they commit their fraud.
Here's the deal:
Is the Dual Saw a "legitimate" saw? Yes.
Does it add anything legitimate to the marketplace? No. Put an effing trim
saw blade on an angle grinder, and you've got 99% of a dual saw.
So how do they get a 1/2 hour infomercial and website out of something that
not only contributes nothing, but sells for 6-15 times the price of a "real"
tool? (the 20x would be a HF angle grinder/blade)
Buy hyping an inneresting, but ultimately inconsequentially "different"
feature -- masterfully.hyping it
These people could sell belly lint.
And it seems like you would buy sed belly lint, or demand double blind
studies of the efficacy of belly lint. goodgawd...
And, if I'm so wrong, why don't you call up dual saw and buy one?
--
EA
Thanks.
R
Smitty Two
"Existential Angst" <UNfi...@UNoptonline.net> wrote:
> Next, when you grok the difference between a "conventional cut" and a "climb
> cut", post back -- maybe then we can have an intelligent conversation.
Something you clearly don't, EA. Those terms apply to end mills when
using the side of the cutter. Applied to a circular saw blade, they're
just meaningless technobabble used to weakly obfuscate your ignorance.
RicodJour
> "Existential Angst" <UNfit...@UNoptonline.net> wrote:
>
> > Next, when you grok the difference between a "conventional cut" and a "climb
> > cut", post back -- maybe then we can have an intelligent conversation.
>
> Something you clearly don't, EA. Those terms apply to end mills when
> using the side of the cutter. Applied to a circular saw blade, they're
> just meaningless technobabble used to weakly obfuscate your ignorance.
He's just trolling without knowing he's a troll. It happens. His
blind spot is in believing that he has information instead of going to
look for it. If he'd said that the Dual Saw looks like a piece of
crap and asked for input he might have gotten something out of the
thread, and I probably would have agreed with him and pointed out the
disconcerting number of people who report burning the motor out in
short order. Instead he extrapolates to a universal to form his
opinion, makes outlandish and erroneous claims, and deftly
demonstrates that he doesn't know as much as he thinks he does.
There's really nothing new about the technology. I don't recall who
said that they didn't see the counter rotating blade technology used
in rescue operations, and that if they were, they couldn't be corded,
but...
http://www.weber.de/wr/en/rettungsgeraete/twin-saw-cre-2326-set.php
and for the ICE crowd.
http://www.weber.de/wr/en/rettungsgeraete/twin-saw-cdf-4030-set.php
Someone who had seen the Dual Saw infomercial might have recalled that
the 'inventor' was a Euro firefighter. The odds of him having seen
something similar to the Dual Saw on the job were pretty good, and
saying "patented technology" doesn't mean the whole tool is patented.
Maybe the guy's contribution was to patent an affordable modification
that allowed the expensive tool to be mass-produced for the consumer
market.
In any event, the OP didn't bother to look, clearly doesn't understand
basic vector physics, and spouts off about something he's never
touched. The old saying "throwing the baby out with the bath water"
seems to be the OP's standard operating procedure.
R
RicodJour
wrote:
> "RicodJour" <ricodj...@worldemail.com> wrote in message
I'm loving this. You're the guy who said the people on
rec.woodworking didn't know how to use a circular saw, and now you're
demonstrating that you don't know that routers and mills are the tools
that are capable of climb cuts. Running a circular saw backwards is
not a climb cut. But keep digging - it's entertaining.
Thanks.
R
Ed Huntress
"Smitty Two" <prest...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:prestwhich-66E70...@newsfarm.iad.highwinds-media.com...
Uh, I am *not* going to get into this argument, but climb cutting and
conventional cutting apply to many types of cutting tools, including saw
blades. In fact, in production woodworking, there are ripping saws that
operate in the climb mode for the express purpose of avoiding tear-out. They
require fancy hold-downs and feed mechanisms for the workpieces, so they
don't go flying out of the saw. I've seen them, and I've written about them,
and I've had discussions with the blade makers about the differences in the
two types of blades.
--
Ed Huntress
mkir...@rochester.rr.com
wrote:
> And what "claim" would that be?
This one:
On Dec 10, 2:14 pm, "Existential Angst" <UNfit...@UNoptonline.net>
wrote:
RicodJour
> "Smitty Two" <prestwh...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > In article <4b26649b$0$31273$607ed...@cv.net>,
> > "Existential Angst" <UNfit...@UNoptonline.net> wrote:
>
> >> Next, when you grok the difference between a "conventional cut" and a
> >> "climb
> >> cut", post back -- maybe then we can have an intelligent conversation.
>
> > Something you clearly don't, EA. Those terms apply to end mills when
> > using the side of the cutter. Applied to a circular saw blade, they're
> > just meaningless technobabble used to weakly obfuscate your ignorance.
>
> Uh, I am *not* going to get into this argument, but climb cutting and
> conventional cutting apply to many types of cutting tools, including saw
> blades. In fact, in production woodworking, there are ripping saws that
> operate in the climb mode for the express purpose of avoiding tear-out. They
> require fancy hold-downs and feed mechanisms for the workpieces, so they
> don't go flying out of the saw. I've seen them, and I've written about them,
> and I've had discussions with the blade makers about the differences in the
> two types of blades.
Interesting. I've never heard of such a thing with a saw blade, and
DAGS to see if there was such a beast as a circular saw climb cut -
the search didn't turn up a single example in the first two pages of
results. Can you post a link to a climb cutting machine or something
you wrote about it?
In the machines you're talking about, the workpiece/sawblade is moving
in the opposite direction to the normal direction of movement. With
the Dual Saw type of saws, one of the counter rotating blades is
always moving opposite the 'normal' direction of movement - and in
fact that that is the primary reason the tool can get away without
hold downs and feed mechanisms (equal and opposite canceling and all
of that), and the reason that the tool shouldn't grab and kick, it
seems to me that the tool isn't climb cutting, so much as just
cutting. The adjectives canceled out. So is there really a climb cut
in such a tool?
R
Existential Angst
news:prestwhich-66E70...@newsfarm.iad.highwinds-media.com...
Really? Google "climb cut" RAS.
The very first hit:
http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/RadialArm_Saw_Cutting.html
Comment from contributor D:
There is only one really safe way to cross cut on a RAS - by putting the
stock against the fence and then pulling the yoke and blade towards you.
This is, technically, a climb cut since you're feeding the blade to the
stock in the same direction the blade is rotating. Yes, the blade can
"climb" into the stock and the motor can jerk towards the operator. However,
that's why you should pull the yoke through the stock with a bit of a "stiff
arm" (so to speak), to minimize motor movement should this happen.
Who's ignerint now?
AND, btw, this explains but another lie on the dualsaw mis-infomercial: You
CAN cut in either direction with a circular saw (backwards would be climb),
you just gotta be careful, and use a "stiff arm". Not recommended, of
course.
And, indeed, the dual saw DOES facilitate this bi-directional cutting, but
it is an utterly trivial feature. They also strongly imply that *because*
of the opposite blade rotation, the dual saw can plunge cut and a circular
saw can't. Carpenters plunge cut every day with circular saws. Sheeit,
you can plunge cut with a recip saw, if you know what yer doin.
Well, *I* can plunge cut with recip saw..... clearly YOU can't.....
Btw, I disagree mightily with Contributor D:
Climb cuttung, as he correctly describes, indeed requires a "stiff arm",
and is thusly a very big pita for thick material. Otoh, Push cutting
(conventional) imo is MUCH preferred on an RAS, and safer. And *easier*.
Conventional cut is, of course, how one uses a table saw or circular saw.
Otoh, machinists generally prefer milling in climb, altho material and
tooling can vary the equation -- strangely, I've had much better finishes in
some mateials using conventional finish cuts... but, gee, look who I'm
talking to.....
Any questions?
Oh, btw, I need not have even googled or cited anything, as the "physics"
that yer ignerint buddee RicodJour refers to is self-evident, and I could
have argued this from geometry alone. Too much work, tho, and no doubt
futile for you and yer dualsaw buddee, so I did the google for you.. I'm
sure the folks on rec.woodworking can help you out further, if you are still
in your chronic daze.
--
EA
Existential Angst
On Dec 15, 9:40 am, Smitty Two <prestwh...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> "Existential Angst" <UNfit...@UNoptonline.net> wrote:
>
> > Next, when you grok the difference between a "conventional cut" and a
> > "climb
> > cut", post back -- maybe then we can have an intelligent conversation.
>
> Something you clearly don't, EA. Those terms apply to end mills when
> using the side of the cutter. Applied to a circular saw blade, they're
> just meaningless technobabble used to weakly obfuscate your ignorance.
He's just trolling without knowing he's a troll. It happens. His
blind spot is in believing that he has information instead of going to
look for it. If he'd said that the Dual Saw looks like a piece of
crap and asked for input he might have gotten something out of the
thread, and I probably would have agreed with him and pointed out the
disconcerting number of people who report burning the motor out in
short order.
=========================================
Yeah, I saw that. Moot, tho. The dualsaw is still near-useless, even with
a motor that doesn't burn out.
-------------------------------------------
Instead he extrapolates to a universal to form his
opinion, makes outlandish and erroneous claims,
===================================================
Name one.
If anything, I left a lot of shit out, for brevity.
So point out one error.
YOU just made one gigantic implicit error by tacitly agreeing with Shitty
Two about the climb cut business.
I guess you really don't know about climb cutting, and knee-jerk agreed with
Shitty, without looking it up.
But you did look up the below stuff, not even realizing that what you cite
are totally different horses, the difference between a cannon and a
firecracker -- even those both use gunpowder.
And changes nothing in this debate.
---------------------------------------------------------
and deftly
demonstrates that he doesn't know as much as he thinks he does.
There's really nothing new about the technology. I don't recall who
said that they didn't see the counter rotating blade technology used
in rescue operations, and that if they were, they couldn't be corded,
but...
http://www.weber.de/wr/en/rettungsgeraete/twin-saw-cre-2326-set.php
and for the ICE crowd.
http://www.weber.de/wr/en/rettungsgeraete/twin-saw-cdf-4030-set.php
Someone who had seen the Dual Saw infomercial might have recalled that
the 'inventor' was a Euro firefighter. The odds of him having seen
something similar to the Dual Saw on the job were pretty good, and
saying "patented technology" doesn't mean the whole tool is patented.
Maybe the guy's contribution was to patent an affordable modification
that allowed the expensive tool to be mass-produced for the consumer
market.
======================================================
Heh, just like Tony Little, who say the Gazelle in a rehab unit for burn
victims, and said, Hey, this is great for burn victims who are barely alive,
it should be GREAT for healthy people, so they'll never ever EVER ever get
fit.
Did you see the SIZE of those saws??? Holy shit.....
Context, dude, context.
-----------------------------------------------------
In any event, the OP didn't bother to look, clearly doesn't understand
basic vector physics, and spouts off about something he's never
touched. The old saying "throwing the baby out with the bath water"
seems to be the OP's standard operating procedure.
==========================================================
Vector physics?
Was it you who stated that the counter-rotating blades result in zero
angular momentum, ergo no gyroscopic effect?
Hmmm, lessee..... wait a minute.... No, that was ME! Holy shit.....
Hmmm, I guess, hmm, cuz the angular momentum vectors (normal to the plane
of rotation) cancel out??
YESSSS, THAT MUST BE IT!!!!
Now, you and Shitty should go back to playing with your wooden blocks, and
make sure you don't touch ANY power tools without adult supervision.
Don't forget to point out all my outlandish and erroneous claims.
--
EA
R
Existential Angst
======================================================
Not only are you an idiot, you are a long-winded pedantic idiot.
Goodgawd.....
Can you say " Ray-Dee-All Arm Saw ", boyzngerlz??
--
EA
R
Existential Angst
===================================================
Apparently you are digging a lot faster than I am.
But, in defense of your sorry ignerint ass, I see you posted this before Ed
H replied.
But it just goes to show you can't think for yourself. You STILL can't see
that the concepts of climb vs conventional cutting apply to ANY
tangentially-approached device. Wake up, dude. goodgawd.... So much for
vector physics, eh?
Heh, we'll see how big of a person you are, by the size of the humble pie
you wind up eating -- esp. when you won't be able to cite ANY of my
"outlandish or erroneous claims" regarding that effing useless dual saw.
--
EA
Thanks.
R
Existential Angst
news:4b27a816$0$31277$607e...@cv.net...
Well, you are talking geometry to two assholes with cataracts bigger than a
golf ball.
Note, however, that RAS's climb cut de rigeur.... even tho, as I stated
previously, climb cutting on thick material in a RAS is a pita.
--
EA
>
> --
> Ed Huntress
>
Ed Huntress
I knew you'd ask that. <g> It was between 20 and 25 years ago; the story was
about using wirecut EDM to shape sinterred diamond compacts on the cutters
used in both metalworking (a minor use) and woodworking (the major use),
particularly on commercial spindle-shapers and routers. The discussion about
saw blades was peripheral to the subject, because EDM isn't used to shape
the edges of those.
All I can recall is this: In production rip-sawing, the issue is how the
cutter *exits* the cut, rather than how it enters. Apparently -- and this is
from memory -- saw blades used in commercial ripping just barely extend
through the top of the cut, so the re-entry isn't an issue. On the top side
of the work, it's almost the same whether you consider it climb- or
conventional-cutting. But it makes a big difference when the blade finally
leaves the bottom of the cut. If it's cutting when it comes out of the
workpiece, it's going to tear the edges of the cut, as any hobbyist
woodworker knows from conventional work with a table saw. In the discussion,
running the blade in the reverse direction of what most of us condider the
"conventional" one, in which the blade exits the work "not cutting," was
what they were calling "climb cutting," and apparently that's the preferred
mode for production. It requires friction drive and hold-down rollers; the
work is fed under power.
BTW, some commercial saws operate upside-down, with the blade(s) above the
work, so you might have to reverse "up" and "down" from this discussion.
That may just be for multi-blade ripping of lumber; I've never actually seen
one of those saws.
I never got involved in studying production woodworking except for that
single application, and it was because I covered tooling for a couple of
metalworking magazines and I had a client who made special wire EDMs for
that work, when I wasn't a staff editor.
Sorry I can't refer you to my article. That old stuff isn't archived online
and I wrote over 350 articles about metalworking and tooling, so I don't
remember where it ran.
>In the machines you're talking about, the workpiece/sawblade is moving
>in the opposite direction to the normal direction of movement. With
>the Dual Saw type of saws, one of the counter rotating blades is
>always moving opposite the 'normal' direction of movement - and in
>fact that that is the primary reason the tool can get away without
>hold downs and feed mechanisms (equal and opposite canceling and all
>of that), and the reason that the tool shouldn't grab and kick, it
>seems to me that the tool isn't climb cutting, so much as just
>cutting. The adjectives canceled out. So is there really a climb cut
>in such a tool?
A good question; I don't know about those saws. I hesitated to jump in here
at all, except to point out that there is something that is, or was, called
"climb cutting" in production sawing, and that it's similar to what we mean
by the term in metalworking, with milling cutters.
I will now go back to my nap. <g>
--
Ed Huntress
Ed Huntress
"Existential Angst" <UNfi...@UNoptonline.net> wrote in message
I avoided bringing up radial arm saws because...well, because some people
laugh at radial arm saws for "real" woodworking. <g>
Not me! I do not want to get flamed by the RAS lovers of the world.
--
Ed Huntress
Existential Angst
> news:prestwhich-66E70...@newsfarm.iad.highwinds-media.com...
>> In article <4b26649b$0$31273$607e...@cv.net>,
>> "Existential Angst" <UNfi...@UNoptonline.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Next, when you grok the difference between a "conventional cut" and a
>>> "climb
>>> cut", post back -- maybe then we can have an intelligent conversation.
>>
>> Something you clearly don't, EA. Those terms apply to end mills when
>> using the side of the cutter. Applied to a circular saw blade, they're
>> just meaningless technobabble used to weakly obfuscate your ignorance.
>
> Uh, I am *not* going to get into this argument,
Ed,
The real thrust of this whole thing, and the most important issue, is the
pre-meditated and essentially conspiratorial rip-off and mindfuck these
companies put together, no doubt whilst laughing their effing heads off.
By taking things subtlely -- and not so subtlely -- out of context, and
hyping inconsequential and irrelevant differences, they wind up with very
impressive well-choreographed bullshit, and consequently are able to rip off
the public to the tune of $$millions.
Take bleating RicodJour's links to the "real" dual saws -- just what does
dat shit have to do with a shop?
Well, everything, if you listen to con-men like Billy Mays.
I'll bet a good piece of the farm that that pos dual saw did not cut a truly
intact car in half, and if it did, I'm sure they went through about a dozen
of those saws and just as many blades. I'm sure even with that bullshit
prop car, they went through multiple blades/motors.
It is really an interesting and, imo, *important* exercise to take something
like the dual saw mis-infomercial, and line-by-line, go through all the
misrepresentations -- from a purely analytic NON-hands-on pov, the very pov
that bleating RJ, with his little brain, bitches about.
It is really an important exercise in logic, analysis, science, marketing,
psychology, mass psychology, perception, and proly a few other things.
It is pretty brilliant -- AND diabolical -- how these marketing muthafuckas
go about all this.
And, of course, reprehensible.
I personally believe this ilk of mis-infomercial qualifies for RICO
prosecution, as these misinformational campaigns are really ongoing
organized criminal enterprises.
A line-by-line analysis of the dual saw infomercial, or any of Tony Little's
shit, or really any of these bullshit informercials would make for a very
illuminating and educational article -- should you be looking for new
subject. :) :)
--
EA
Existential Angst
Well, Ed, if you can't provide a cite, it can't be true!! So now, you are a
bullshitter, just like me!!
Welcome to the club.
What's funny is, the asshole duo here, Shitty and his friend Rico, DID look
up climb cutting and STILL couldn't get the skinny!!
Why??
Well, in addition to having less than one complete brain between them, they
were so hot to discredit me, they basically didn't *want* to find anything.
What they want is some other asshole with some measured erudite "voice of
reason" to painfully and carefully test out bullshit, write a big long
frigging "study", so they can quote/cite something so they themselves look
erudite, instead of just opening their own fukn eyes and thinking for their
own fukn selves.
Too much to ask.
Sheeit, they proly still believe in Cold fukn Fusion, because Fleischman and
Pons published a peer-reviewed article. Albeit a bullshit peer-reviewed
article, but that's OK for Rico and Shitty.
Bullshit is bullshit. A ripoff is a ripoff. Deception is deception, and
malintent is malintent.
Flavor it all any way you want, apply whatever bullshit voice of reason you
want, it's still ripoff bullshit, which, given the amount of it on the
airwaves, is affecting the very fabric of our culture.
Which is all way over the heads of these two assholes, and a cupla others
here.
Fuck them. Let them buy a dual saw.
Ed Huntress
"Existential Angst" <UNfi...@UNoptonline.net> wrote in message
Er, ah....Jesus, of all of the things I'd want to investigate, get angry
about, and then write about, I think you've just given me one to file
between "exploitation of diabetic mice in medical research," and "new
slim-jim designs for car thieves."
I'll get there. If I live that long. d8-)
--
Ed Huntress
Ed Huntress
"Existential Angst" <UNfi...@UNoptonline.net> wrote in message
A suggestion: Why don't you take all of that ability you have and write
something really worthwhile with it? I know I'm the last one who should be
talking, arguing here about racism, birther bullshit, and so on, but I have
an excuse. For me, it's a busman's holiday. <g>
Here's a good one. Do you get Harper's? My old friend Alan Tonelson wrote
the editorial this month (next month, actually; it's in the January issue),
about US manufacturing and globalism, and it's a smorgasbord of subjects to
pick up and write about. Anyone with some experience selling job-shop
services ought to see several ideas in Tonelson's overview. The metalworking
magazines would be interested, if you really think about it hard before
writing.
This is the lead, but it will cut you off if you don't have a subscription.
"Up from globalism":
http://www.harpers.org/archive/2010/01/0082768
--
Ed Huntress
Steve B
"Existential Angst" <UNfi...@UNoptonline.net> wrote
> A line-by-line analysis of the dual saw infomercial, or any of Tony
Little's
> shit, or really any of these bullshit informercials would make for a very
> illuminating and educational article -- should you be looking for new
> subject. :) :)
You can count me in as a viewer of InfomercialBusters, just like
MythBusters. Could be some interesting shit.
Steve
RicodJour
> "Existential Angst" <UNfit...@UNoptonline.net> wrote
To what end? There's no argument that the majority of the stuff you
find on infomercials is targeted at insomniacs that are awake in the
middle of the night and buying something, anything!, lets them feel
like they're doing something useful. But "debunking" an infomercial
is an exercise in futility. Watching an infomercial is a waste of
time, and MythBusting them would be an even bigger waste.
The angst-ridden one seems to believe that we should be living in a
perfect world, and he can fix this one if only people will listen to
him. That way lies madness.
Everything should be taken with a grain of salt. Getting upset about
the inequity of a _commercial_ seems pretty low on the list of things
to get upset about. At least for sane people.
R
Cheri
Everything should be taken with a grain of salt. Getting upset about
the inequity of a _commercial_ seems pretty low on the list of things
to get upset about. At least for sane people.
==========
Two products that live up to the informercial hype, and more. G2 Swivel
Sweeper and NuWave Oven. Both terrific products. Two products that are a
complete waste of money. Steam Zapper and Perfect Pancake Maker.
Cheri
cavelamb
I guess Sham-Wows are in the middle?
Ed Pawlowski
"cavelamb" <cave...@earthlink.net> wrote in message >
>
> I guess Sham-Wows are in the middle?
They are actually good product, especially when you get them at half the
price at Ocean State Job Lot. I'm sure a store near you has them too.
Rich Grise
Can they really suck up Coke off the floor under a piece of carpet?
Through the carpet, and leave the underside bone-dry, like in the
commercial?
I have a coworker who has a couple of them, and when I asked him that, he
just scowled at me and went back to his Bridgeport.
Thanks,
Rich
jbsl...@gmail.com
Err... Actually the term was used way back in the days of horizontal
milling machines where the term is actually descriptive as in "climb
milling" the cutter actually does try to climb onto the work...
And as far a saw blades are concerned, while the term, per se, wasn't
used the concept was certainly know in the days of the old circular
saw mills, even the early steam powered mills.
Regards,
J.B.
Existential Angst
news:hg8ph...@news7.newsguy.com...
> "RicodJour" <rico...@worldemail.com> wrote in message
> news:77d43124-c7df-468a-8ad8-
>
> Everything should be taken with a grain of salt. Getting upset about
> the inequity of a _commercial_ seems pretty low on the list of things
> to get upset about. At least for sane people.
> ==========
>
> Two products that live up to the informercial hype, and more. G2 Swivel
> Sweeper and NuWave Oven. Both terrific products.
Well, I hope you enjoyed paying 4x the normal price, as much as you enjoy
the products.
Billy Mays died in a mansion, donchaknow.
Speaking of 4x the price, think Dyson.... vs. regular ole Hoover -- oh, and
lest RicodJour bind up his panties again, this is according to Consumer
Reports -- fwiw.
Ditto Oreck, whose customer svc and parts are but another scam.
Ditto Bose.... etc.
The common theme to all these over-priced middling-to-under-quality items:
head-pounding marketing.
--
EA
Steve B
R
So, are you saying that before I have a thought or take any action in my
life, I should run it by you first? Is that what you are saying, Sparky?
Steve
Steve B
"Existential Angst" <UNfi...@UNoptonline.net> wrote in message
I'm sorry, but in order to think this, you must have RicodJour's WRITTEN
permission. You have gone entirely out of bounds on this one. The
consequences will be severe.
Steve
RicodJour
> "RicodJour" <ricodj...@worldemail.com> wrote in message
>
> > You can count me in as a viewer of InfomercialBusters, just like
> > MythBusters. Could be some interesting shit.
>
> To what end? There's no argument that the majority of the stuff you
> find on infomercials is targeted at insomniacs that are awake in the
> middle of the night and buying something, anything!, lets them feel
> like they're doing something useful. But "debunking" an infomercial
> is an exercise in futility. Watching an infomercial is a waste of
> time, and MythBusting them would be an even bigger waste.
>
> The angst-ridden one seems to believe that we should be living in a
> perfect world, and he can fix this one if only people will listen to
> him. That way lies madness.
>
> Everything should be taken with a grain of salt. Getting upset about
> the inequity of a _commercial_ seems pretty low on the list of things
> to get upset about. At least for sane people.
>
> life, I should run it by you first? Is that what you are saying, Sparky?
Not at all. You are of course well able to choose how you spend your
time. Please feel free to start your infomercial MythBusting dweeb
site. I'm sure watching programs in the wee hours of the morning that
you know are selling to suckers, and then investigating, debunking the
claims, and posting the results, will improve your life immeasurably.
R
Existential Angst
====================================================
Sez the asshole who has yet to cite my "outlandish and erronious claims" re
the dual saw.
If Ricodjour now acknowledges that infomercials rip off suckers, why would
my "claims" about (against?) the ripoff dual saw be outlandish and
erronious? Still no cites, eh?
And if D'jour and Shitty are so fluent in all that is in the consumer
marketplace, and have nothing to learn from anyone/anything, what was up
with conventional/climb cutting embarrassment?
RicodJour bandied about the phrase, *sorta* understood the concept, but as
it turned out really DIDN'T understand it, despite trying to sound like an
expert, cuz he (and his ignerint buddee) couldn't extrapolate the concept to
saw blades.
iow, they can recite those who fool them with authority, but they can't
really think.
Which they proved, glaringly and embarrassingly. Altho some people
apparently cannot be embarrassed.
So RicodJour, despite his bullshit erudite voice of reason, could actually
benefit as much as anyone from an infomercial debunking series. He won't,
of course, because determined assholes are unteachable, but, in theory, he
could.
--
EA
R
Steve B
R
No, I believe that the next action I take will improve my life just somewhat
...................
plink! bye.
Ed Pawlowski
"Rich Grise" <rich...@example.net> wrote in message
news:pan.2009.12.15....@example.net...
Never tried that, but they do hold moisture well, are good for spills I've
had and for drying the car. They do those jobs much better than a regular
cloth rag or paper towel.