did i kill my 'puter

[Karl Townsend]

i had a CMOS checksum error on my CNC mill. So, I installed a new
motherboard battery. Now the CPU fan just comes on and it makes no
attempt to boot. Is the computer DOA? I checked connections and
wiggled stuff.

Karl

[Michael A. Terrell]

Remove the new battery & short out the socket for a few seconds, then
reinstall the battery. You may have some corrupt data in the CMOS
scratchpad RAM.

[Karl Townsend]

tryed that, No Joy
Karl

[Michael A. Terrell]

Try another power supply, if you have one. You may have a dying or
dead motherboard. Unplug all the drives, and cards except the video
card, if it isn't part of the motherboard. If you can't get the bios
screen to flash, look at the electrolytics on the motherboard, and the
ones near the processor in particular.

If they are bulging, they need replaced, or replace the motherboard.
They are a special low ESR 105° C type capacitor, and not always easy to
replace, because they are soldered to internal layers. If you can find
the exact same type motherboard, and move the processor to the
replacement board you shouldn't have to reinstall any software.

[wws]

On Nov 16, 4:18 pm, Karl Townsend <karltownsend....@embarqmail.com>
wrote:

Maybe re-seating the memory will work.
I have had to replace memory sticks , too.

[mike]

On 11/16/2012 3:59 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
>
> Karl Townsend wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, 16 Nov 2012 17:53:26 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
>> <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Karl Townsend wrote:
>>>>
>>>> i had a CMOS checksum error on my CNC mill. So, I installed a new
>>>> motherboard battery. Now the CPU fan just comes on and it makes no
>>>> attempt to boot. Is the computer DOA? I checked connections and
>>>> wiggled stuff.
>>>
>>>

>>> Remove the new battery& short out the socket for a few seconds, then

>>> reinstall the battery. You may have some corrupt data in the CMOS
>>> scratchpad RAM.
>>
>> tryed that, No Joy
>
>
> Try another power supply, if you have one. You may have a dying or
> dead motherboard. Unplug all the drives, and cards except the video
> card, if it isn't part of the motherboard. If you can't get the bios
> screen to flash, look at the electrolytics on the motherboard, and the
> ones near the processor in particular.
>
> If they are bulging, they need replaced, or replace the motherboard.
> They are a special low ESR 105� C type capacitor, and not always easy to
> replace, because they are soldered to internal layers. If you can find
> the exact same type motherboard, and move the processor to the
> replacement board you shouldn't have to reinstall any software.

How did you determine that the unspecified cnc mill with the unspecified
controller running an unspecified OS with an unspecified user interface
made no *attempt* to boot?

If it's an IBM-PC compatible controller with a keyboard and display
and you don't get any beeps and you see nothing on the display and
entering the BIOS setup pre-boot keystrokes at the proper time don't do
anything, yep, you've probably borked it.

If it's the typical coin-cell non-rechargeable CMOS battery, there's
a diode in series and shorting the socket does nothing. You have to
WAIT, I'd give it an hour before you give up and replace the motherboard.
There may be a jumper to reset the cmos, but it may only open the circuit
and also require you to wait. Shouldn't take an hour, but what do you
have to lose by waiting longer.

Also, did you unplug the computer while you waited?
Many computers have a 5V supply that's hot when the power is off
and may prevent the CMOS from resetting. It's also possible that
there's enough power coming back thru an I/O port to keep the CMOS
alive.

I had a situation where there was enough juice coming back through
a GPIB port to keep the GPIB fully functional with the power
to the microcontroller removed. I unplugged it and it just kept
on running. Thought I'd been possessed...

[Karl Townsend]

On Fri, 16 Nov 2012 18:59:56 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"

This is a P4 motherboard with an ISA slot for my Galil card. Rare and
expensive to replace. I happen to be in Ocala Tuesday. Are you
interested in looking at it?

Karl

[Michael A. Terrell]

I just learned that a severly disabled freind of mine died last night
& I'm just not up to it tonight. I only slept a little over three hours
last night, and I'm not able to concentrate on anything right now. I
was just getting ready to post a message that I would be off the group
for a few days to a week, to see if I can help her family. My email is
good, so you can contact me off group. I should be in better shape by
Tuesday and more than happy to take a look at it. I may even have a
spare motherboard that would support the card. Email me and give me the
details, I probably won't be back on the group before Monday or Tuesday.

To everyone else, this is the second disabled freind who has died in
the last couple months. I wasn't able to do anything to help the first,
because they can't locate a next of kin. She had a sister, but wouldn't
talk about her or even tell where her sister lived. In this case, her
yuongest son is disabled and she was all he had.

[Tom Gardner]

Anybody with more than one computer should get a power supply tester.
They are just not expensive at $23. Its the first thing I do on a
problem box and often the only thing I need to do.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16899705003

[Erik]

In article <Oe2dnauE8OEdTjvN...@earthlink.com>,

A good article on bad (bulging) electrolytic capacitors, causes, and
good photos can be had here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague

Looks like one major cause of many failed units started roughly around
the early 2000's, and traces back to a botched industrial espionage
episode. Details are in the the above article.

Erik

[nob...@nowhere.net]

I have restored function to computers by unplugging them from
electricity and unplugging and re plugging every connector in the
computer. Doing the unplug/re plug routine gives all the connectors a
new fresh connection. Corroded memory board contacts will keep the
computer from booting.

[pyotr filipivich]

"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.t...@earthlink.net> on Fri, 16 Nov 2012
20:29:11 -0500 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

Memory Eternal.

My prayers go up for you.
--
pyotr
Go not to the Net for answers, for it will tell you Yes and no. And
you are a bloody fool, only an ignorant cretin would even ask the
question, forty two, 47, the second door, and how many blonde lawyers
does it take to change a lightbulb.

[DoN. Nichols]

You may need to reset the CMOS. Pull the new battery, and short
the pins of the holder for a few seconds, then re-install the battery.
You will probably have to reset all the options after this, of course.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: <BPdnic...@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

[dca...@krl.org]

I had a similar problem. Can you get to the boot menu? I found that the order of devices used to load the operating system had changed and it was trying to load from the floppy drive instead of the hard drive.

Dan

[Pete C.]

^ This. Whenever strange issues start to crop up with a machine that's
fairly old, powering it down and unplugging/replugging every connector a
few times wipes oxide buildup off the contacts and usually solves the
problem.

[Karl Townsend]

On 17 Nov 2012 05:22:24 GMT, "DoN. Nichols" <BPdnic...@d-and-d.com>
wrote:

>On 2012-11-16, Karl Townsend <karltown...@embarqmail.com> wrote:
>> i had a CMOS checksum error on my CNC mill. So, I installed a new
>> motherboard battery. Now the CPU fan just comes on and it makes no
>> attempt to boot. Is the computer DOA? I checked connections and
>> wiggled stuff.
>
> You may need to reset the CMOS. Pull the new battery, and short
>the pins of the holder for a few seconds, then re-install the battery.
>You will probably have to reset all the options after this, of course.
>
> Good Luck,
> DoN.

JOY, This was it but shorting it didn't work. leaving the battery out
all night did.

Karl

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 10:00:24 -0500, "Pete C." <aux3....@snet.net>
wrote:

That was particularly true back in the days of the "model T"
computers - where all of the ICs were socketed - and only the best
used high quality screw machine? sockets. Every memory bit was a
separate chup - with tinned legs.

On today's computers, with gold plated instead of tinned connections,
it is EXTREMELY rare.

I'd say, in order of likelihood- bad power supply (average ATX P/S up
to about 5 years ago only lasted 2 - 3 years) Bad caps on the
motherboard, or bad motherboard. What model board is it???? ASUS,
A-Open, etc and actual model designation???

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Lucky!!!.
Back when the RTC was a separate chip we would remove the battery and
put a peice of tinfoil over the clock chip to short out all the pins.
The clock chip contained the C-MOS in most of those older machines .

[DoN. Nichols]

Glad it worked. I had forgotten about the likelyhood of a diode
in the battery circuit, but it makes sense. (Now, if you could identify
the actual chip with the CMOS memory in it, and which pins were power
and ground on the chip, shorting across there would have been quicker.
But you have it done, so no worry.

[DoN. Nichols]

On 2012-11-17, cl...@snyder.on.ca <cl...@snyder.on.ca> wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 09:06:34 -0600, Karl Townsend
><karltown...@embarqmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On 17 Nov 2012 05:22:24 GMT, "DoN. Nichols" <BPdnic...@d-and-d.com>
>>wrote:

[ ... ]

>>> You may need to reset the CMOS. Pull the new battery, and short
>>>the pins of the holder for a few seconds, then re-install the battery.
>>>You will probably have to reset all the options after this, of course.
>>>
>>> Good Luck,
>>> DoN.
>>
>>JOY, This was it but shorting it didn't work. leaving the battery out
>>all night did.

[ ... ]

> Back when the RTC was a separate chip we would remove the battery and
> put a peice of tinfoil over the clock chip to short out all the pins.
> The clock chip contained the C-MOS in most of those older machines .

Easier than in the older Sun workstations, which used a chip by
Toshiba which had the clock, the CMOS RAM, a crystal, *and* a coin cell
potted in a single package. No way to short out the battery from
outside. *And* -- it contained the host-id and the ethernet MAC address
inside it, with no easy way to reset those. (There was an
around-the-corner way, but it was not easy.) And if you had any
licensed software, the host-id was very important. If you did not have
it recorded, you had to go to Sun for a replacement, with the barcode
from the label on the chip.

If you left your computer on 24/7 you would get a really long
life from the built-in battery. If you stored it powered off, you would
be lucky to get five years out of it.

And -- there were (are) instructions on the web on how to dig
into the potting and wire an external coin cell to replace the now dead
one inside it. :-)

Enjoy,

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On 17 Nov 2012 21:17:07 GMT, "DoN. Nichols" <BPdnic...@d-and-d.com>

Those "integrated" CMOS devices were used on quite a few motherboards
back in the 386/486 era. Cannot remember the manufacturere - but when
the internal battery died you were cooked. I believe it was Dallas
Semi. Some could be taken apart and a new battery soldered in.
Sometimes you could cut the top off and solder wires to the 2 up-bent
pins and connect a standard c-mos battery, and some guys just replaced
the dallas with generic RTC chip -and an external battery.

Pain in the ARSE, for sure.

>
> If you left your computer on 24/7 you would get a really long
>life from the built-in battery. If you stored it powered off, you would
>be lucky to get five years out of it.
>
> And -- there were (are) instructions on the web on how to dig
>into the potting and wire an external coin cell to replace the now dead
>one inside it. :-)

Most I saw were not even potted - just built into a glued or welded
plastic box.
>
> Enjoy,
> DoN.

[Gunner]

On Fri, 16 Nov 2012 17:53:26 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
<mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:

>

There is usually a Bio "clear" pair of terminals that if shorted, will
wipe the bios settings and bring it back to factory default.

Ive never heard of shorting the socket working. Much for me to learn!

Gunner

The methodology of the left has always been:

1. Lie
2. Repeat the lie as many times as possible
3. Have as many people repeat the lie as often as possible
4. Eventually, the uninformed believe the lie
5. The lie will then be made into some form oflaw
6. Then everyone must conform to the lie

[Gunner]

On Fri, 16 Nov 2012 20:29:11 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"

Hang tough, and do what you can. We will be waiting for your return.

[Gunner]

Too bad the PC based machine tools I work on..use an XT power supply.

Bummer

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 16:13:43 -0800, Gunner <gunne...@gmail.com>

You are lucky The XT type supplies were a LOT more robust than the ATX
(and you CAN convert an ATX power supply to run an XT motherboard)

[Gunner]

What?..one needs a pin removal tool and?

I can find new 300 watt power supplies but they are getting harder to
find.



Gunner

[Pete C.]

cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>
> On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 10:00:24 -0500, "Pete C." <aux3....@snet.net>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >nob...@nowhere.net wrote:
> >>
> >> I have restored function to computers by unplugging them from
> >> electricity and unplugging and re plugging every connector in the
> >> computer. Doing the unplug/re plug routine gives all the connectors a
> >> new fresh connection. Corroded memory board contacts will keep the
> >> computer from booting.
> >
> >^ This. Whenever strange issues start to crop up with a machine that's
> >fairly old, powering it down and unplugging/replugging every connector a
> >few times wipes oxide buildup off the contacts and usually solves the
> >problem.
> That was particularly true back in the days of the "model T"
> computers - where all of the ICs were socketed - and only the best
> used high quality screw machine? sockets. Every memory bit was a
> separate chup - with tinned legs.
>
> On today's computers, with gold plated instead of tinned connections,
> it is EXTREMELY rare.

Nope. I've personally seen it on $$$ equipment with top quality gold
plated connectors. Reseat those connectors a few times and the problem
goes away.

[Spehro Pefhany]

Sometimes it's a cold solder joint somewhere that starts working again
when the board is flexed and the oxidation is temporarily wiped.
Chances are it will come back in either case.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
sp...@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

[BQ340]

Yes, I have experienced that too, especially with memory cards. I rub a
piece of regular copy paper on the card contacts, it acts like like very
fine sandpaper.

I think though what really happens is the oxide is on the contacts in
the socket not on the gold card edge, but it works.

MikeB

--
Email is valid but not checked often

[Pete C.]

It never has in my experience. The last one was some equipment that was
unpowered for about a year and a half, lack of power seems to aggravate
the issue. The equipment was having odd issues when powered up again, I
powered down, reseated everything a few times and the problem went away.
The problem never reappeared in the next four years the equipment was
running.

[whit3rd]

On Sunday, November 18, 2012 7:25:15 AM UTC-8, BQ340 wrote:
> On 11/17/2012 10:00 AM, Pete C. wrote:

> > ^ This. Whenever strange issues start to crop up with a machine that's
> > fairly old, powering it down and unplugging/replugging every connector a
> > few times wipes oxide buildup off the contacts and usually solves the
> > problem.

Exercising sockets is a valuable technique.

> Yes, I have experienced that too, especially with memory cards. I rub a
> piece of regular copy paper on the card contacts, it acts like like very
> fine sandpaper.

That's called burnishing the contacts, another valuable technique.

> I think though what really happens is the oxide is on the contacts in
> the socket not on the gold card edge, but it works.

Gold isn't immune to oxidization (it forms an oxygen monolayer
spontaneously), but the film is thin and it doesn't grow.

Tin also oxidizes, but a thin layer of tin oxide is conductive (it's indium/tin
oxide that makes the transparent electrical connections for your LCD display).

Most important, is that a speck of dust or a film of oil or moisture can be submicroscopic
and still impede the low voltage connections in a computer. So, disturbing the
surface by mechanical wiping (like, when you loosen and reseat a memory module)
fixes that entire class of problem.

[David Billington]

I remembered this problem when a friend complained that the Cal Controls
controller on her glass furnace was giving thermocouple failure faults.
Various people had said to buy a new controller but as I have a Cal
controller I was aware that the guts of the controller can be prised out
of the panel mount enclosure, I presume to allow easy replacement when
banks of them are fitted such as in plastic extruder lines. As I had
mine apart to fit a comms module I was aware the PCB contacts were just
tinned and might suffer this problem possibly causing issues with low
level signals such as the thermocouple. I made a small pry bar to get
the guts out and re-inserted it a couple of times and the problem went
away. I've had the same happen on my controller more recently and
removing and refitting it cured the fault.

[Jim Wilkins]

"David Billington" <d...@djbillington.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:50a93792$0$7319$5b6a...@news.zen.co.uk...
> ...

> I remembered this problem when a friend complained that the Cal
> Controls controller on her glass furnace was giving thermocouple
> failure faults. Various people had said to buy a new controller but
> as I have a Cal controller I was aware that the guts of the
> controller can be prised out of the panel mount enclosure, I presume
> to allow easy replacement when banks of them are fitted such as in
> plastic extruder lines. As I had mine apart to fit a comms module I
> was aware the PCB contacts were just tinned and might suffer this
> problem possibly causing issues with low level signals such as the
> thermocouple. I made a small pry bar to get the guts out and
> re-inserted it a couple of times and the problem went away. I've had
> the same happen on my controller more recently and removing and
> refitting it cured the fault.

I have a nice 5-channel thermocouple temperature display in the
kitchen that I bought real cheap, and then found that it
intermittently went haywire until firmly rapped. Un- and re-plugging
everything has fixed it. The culprit was likely a socketed 40-pin IC.
http://www.doric-vas.com/400.htm

Now I can tell that a cooking pot on the woodstove downstairs has
reached boiling before I smell it burning.

[DoN. Nichols]

On 2012-11-18, Pete C. <aux3....@snet.net> wrote:
>
> Spehro Pefhany wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, 18 Nov 2012 09:51:00 -0500, the renowned "Pete C."
>> <aux3....@snet.net> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:

[ ... ]

>> >> On today's computers, with gold plated instead of tinned connections,
>> >> it is EXTREMELY rare.
>> >
>> >Nope. I've personally seen it on $$$ equipment with top quality gold
>> >plated connectors. Reseat those connectors a few times and the problem
>> >goes away.
>>
>> Sometimes it's a cold solder joint somewhere that starts working again
>> when the board is flexed and the oxidation is temporarily wiped.
>> Chances are it will come back in either case.
>
> It never has in my experience. The last one was some equipment that was
> unpowered for about a year and a half, lack of power seems to aggravate
> the issue. The equipment was having odd issues when powered up again, I
> powered down, reseated everything a few times and the problem went away.
> The problem never reappeared in the next four years the equipment was
> running.

Hmm ... if it was something made after the ROHS requirement came
in, and if the connectors were plated with pure tin to match the
requirements, the pure tin grows conductive whiskers -- quickly or over
long periods of time. Whiskers across pins in active equipment may be
vaporized, while those across unpowered equipment will just stay there
until it is powered on. If multiple whiskers bridge a given connection,
there may not be sufficient current to blow the whiskers away.

But yes, oxidiation in connectors -- sitting idle or in frequent
use -- can be a problem. My most frequent experience with that was the
motherboard of the SWTP 6800 home computer kit. The bus connectors were
each a row of fifty pins sticking up, and Molex connectors which slide
over those. About once a year I would have to open it up and pull each
board off and slide it on a few times to clean the oxide. A real pain,
but at least I knew how to fix it. :-)

Good Luck,

[Jim Wilkins]

"DoN. Nichols" <BPdnic...@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
news:slrnkaipdj.jg...@Katana.d-and-d.com...

>>> >> On today's computers, with gold plated instead of tinned
>>> >> connections,
>>> >> it is EXTREMELY rare.
>>> >
>

> Good Luck,
> DoN.

I thought bad connections had bitten me this afternoon. I installed a
new 2G RAM stick, booted, and got a message that memory had changed,
ending with "To resolve this issue, try to reseat the memory".




Two or three long minutes later a prompt to hit F5 to run the boot rom
diagnostics appeared. It passed just fine and then opened Windows
properly.

[DoN. Nichols]

On 2012-11-19, Jim Wilkins <murat...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "DoN. Nichols" <BPdnic...@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
> news:slrnkaipdj.jg...@Katana.d-and-d.com...
>
>>>> >> On today's computers, with gold plated instead of tinned
>>>> >> connections,
>>>> >> it is EXTREMELY rare.
>>>> >
>>
>> Good Luck,
>> DoN.
>
> I thought bad connections had bitten me this afternoon. I installed a
> new 2G RAM stick, booted, and got a message that memory had changed,
> ending with "To resolve this issue, try to reseat the memory".

Of course it changed. You *added* memory -- or replaced a
failed unit (you didn't say which). It apparently does not know the
difference between an increase in avaiable memory and a decrease.
(Perhaps this is a side-effect of Windows being designed to consider any
change a sign of possibly being moved to a new computer?)

> Two or three long minutes later a prompt to hit F5 to run the boot rom
> diagnostics appeared. It passed just fine and then opened Windows
> properly.

Likely just complaining about the increase. :-)

I still remember the early message (which I first saw on a Wyse
PC -- pre Windows even -- which said:

Keyboard missing. Hit F1 to continue.

(and exactly how you were supposed to hit F1 when the keyboard was
missing was not explained. :-)

Enjoy,

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Sun, 18 Nov 2012 09:51:00 -0500, "Pete C." <aux3....@snet.net>

I work on them every day - and other than add-on cards I have NOT seen
a single one in the last 8 or more years.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Now THAT I have seen.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Sun, 18 Nov 2012 11:56:41 -0500, "Pete C." <aux3....@snet.net>

If it was left sitting in a cool damp corrosive atmosphere I can see
it. On a machine in relatively normal use it is NOT an issue any more
- although it definitely was a common failure a decade or more ago.
Might be a problem on cheap crap machines - but I have not had the
problen even on Dell - or Compaq/HP.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On 18 Nov 2012 22:48:22 GMT, "DoN. Nichols" <BPdnic...@d-and-d.com>
wrote:

There was a product made for that - can't remember but I think it was
de-ox-it. Put it on at assembly and NEVER have the problem. The
concentrate was over $30 an ounce over 20 years ago - but you mixed it
about 6:1 with ethanol and it went a LONG way.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On 19 Nov 2012 01:08:40 GMT, "DoN. Nichols" <BPdnic...@d-and-d.com>
wrote:

>On 2012-11-19, Jim Wilkins <murat...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> "DoN. Nichols" <BPdnic...@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
>> news:slrnkaipdj.jg...@Katana.d-and-d.com...
>>
>>>>> >> On today's computers, with gold plated instead of tinned
>>>>> >> connections,
>>>>> >> it is EXTREMELY rare.
>>>>> >
>>>
>>> Good Luck,
>>> DoN.
>>
>> I thought bad connections had bitten me this afternoon. I installed a
>> new 2G RAM stick, booted, and got a message that memory had changed,
>> ending with "To resolve this issue, try to reseat the memory".
>
> Of course it changed. You *added* memory -- or replaced a
>failed unit (you didn't say which). It apparently does not know the
>difference between an increase in avaiable memory and a decrease.
>(Perhaps this is a side-effect of Windows being designed to consider any
>change a sign of possibly being moved to a new computer?)

Except the error was not generated by Windows. It is a BIOS prompt.

>> Two or three long minutes later a prompt to hit F5 to run the boot rom
>> diagnostics appeared. It passed just fine and then opened Windows
>> properly.
>
> Likely just complaining about the increase. :-)
>
> I still remember the early message (which I first saw on a Wyse
>PC -- pre Windows even -- which said:
>
> Keyboard missing. Hit F1 to continue.

Yup. a lot of old CPM machines did the same. It was a "stacked" error
code. Anything that tripped the bios error code was reported - and
then the standard "hit F1 to continue" which was supposed to get you
into the PIOS setup.

[Pete C.]

It sat unpowered for a year and a half in the corner of a climate
controlled data center (60,000sf+).

> On a machine in relatively normal use it is NOT an issue any more
> - although it definitely was a common failure a decade or more ago.
> Might be a problem on cheap crap machines - but I have not had the
> problen even on Dell - or Compaq/HP.

This was a $$$ machine with all USA made gold plated connectors.

[Pete C.]

Sony stereo receivers were well known for that. The first repair step
was to just resolder everything adding a bit of fresh solder to each
connection. Next was looking for the infamous baked brown capacitor
glue...

[Pete C.]

It was probably 8 years ago. Don't worry, the short MTBF ROHS crap will
be catching up with us very soon...

[Jim Wilkins]

"DoN. Nichols" <BPdnic...@d-and-d.com> wrote in message

news:slrnkaj1kl.lh...@Katana.d-and-d.com...

> On 2012-11-19, Jim Wilkins <murat...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I thought bad connections had bitten me this afternoon. I installed
>> a
>> new 2G RAM stick, booted, and got a message that memory had
>> changed,
>> ending with "To resolve this issue, try to reseat the memory".
>
> Of course it changed. You *added* memory -- or replaced a
> failed unit (you didn't say which). It apparently does not know the
> difference between an increase in avaiable memory and a decrease.
> (Perhaps this is a side-effect of Windows being designed to consider
> any
> change a sign of possibly being moved to a new computer?)
>
>> Two or three long minutes later a prompt to hit F5 to run the boot
>> rom
>> diagnostics appeared. It passed just fine and then opened Windows
>> properly.
>
> Likely just complaining about the increase. :-)
>

> DoN.

I put the old 1GB stick back in and was writing down the message when
the prompt to continue appeared, after about half the delay. There was
no indication that a memory test was running.

Since I have to remove the keyboard to change RAM I'm not going to
investigate this further, just giving you all a heads-up that it
happens, at least on a Dell Latitude D820 laptop. I hadn't previously
noticed a long delay when swapping up to 2GB memory sticks on my other
computers.

jsw

[Gunner]

Jim..you either have a bad stick..or the wrong speed/kind or
combination, from the looks of it.

I had that issue not long ago here. I put in (2) 1 gig sticks and one
was bad..and both were of the wrong speed. I took them back and
exchanged them for good ones of the proper speed and that computer now
works just fine.

Sometimes finding the proper ram configuration can be tough,
particularly with some of the "older" machines

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Sun, 18 Nov 2012 22:01:35 -0500, "Pete C." <aux3....@snet.net>

Every once in a while a blind pig finds an acorn too - but it is NOT
a common occuurence.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Sun, 18 Nov 2012 22:05:00 -0500, "Pete C." <aux3....@snet.net>

I HATE doing repairs on lead free ROHS crap.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Mon, 19 Nov 2012 07:02:14 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
<murat...@gmail.com> wrote:

The "Dell from Hell" syndrome.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Gunner" <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:7luka8dlt3ijrm2fl...@4ax.com...

> Gunner

The warning message deceived you too.

When a menu prompt finally appeared I ran the BIOS diagnostics, which
passed, and then booted into 7, which works fine. It's poor practice
to leave the user wondering if the program has crashed or ended when a
long procedure is running silently.

The new memory passes this thorough test:
http://www.memtest.org/

jsw

[Michael A. Terrell]

mike wrote:
>
> If it's the typical coin-cell non-rechargeable CMOS battery, there's
> a diode in series and shorting the socket does nothing.


Some motherboard makers gave those specific instructions. The
circuits that I've seen had a resistor around the diode, and another
diode in series with the DC input from the motherboard. At the
microamps used by the CMOS based design, the forward drop is quite low.
A Schottky diode will be even lower. Anyway, the RTC is now a licensed
design in an ASIC. I haven't seen a motherboard made in the last decade
that had a seperate RTC chip, or module.

[Michael A. Terrell]

nob...@nowhere.net wrote:
>
> I have restored function to computers by unplugging them from
> electricity and unplugging and re plugging every connector in the
> computer. Doing the unplug/re plug routine gives all the connectors a
> new fresh connection. Corroded memory board contacts will keep the
> computer from booting.

A low grade hack, at best. The gold plating on memory modules is
only a few microns thick, so by the time they need 'cleaned' there are
holes in the plating. Doing failure analysis on components, and
qualifying new components for a manufacturing process would really open
your eyes.

[Michael A. Terrell]

"Pete C." wrote:.

>
> Nope. I've personally seen it on $$$ equipment with top quality gold
> plated connectors. Reseat those connectors a few times and the problem
> goes away.

Sure it does. That's why I've spent days replacing IC sockets in
equipment.

[Michael A. Terrell]

cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>
> The "Dell from Hell" syndrome.

AKA: Dude, you're going to hell!!!

[Michael A. Terrell]

cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>
> There was a product made for that - can't remember but I think it was
> de-ox-it. Put it on at assembly and NEVER have the problem. The
> concentrate was over $30 an ounce over 20 years ago - but you mixed it
> about 6:1 with ethanol and it went a LONG way.

My favorite was contact cleaner was Quiterol, which is long out of
business.

[Michael A. Terrell]

BQ340 wrote:
>
> On 11/17/2012 10:00 AM, Pete C. wrote:
> >

> > nob...@nowhere.net wrote:
> >>
> >> I have restored function to computers by unplugging them from
> >> electricity and unplugging and re plugging every connector in the
> >> computer. Doing the unplug/re plug routine gives all the connectors a
> >> new fresh connection. Corroded memory board contacts will keep the
> >> computer from booting.
> >

> > ^ This. Whenever strange issues start to crop up with a machine that's
> > fairly old, powering it down and unplugging/replugging every connector a
> > few times wipes oxide buildup off the contacts and usually solves the
> > problem.
> >
>

> Yes, I have experienced that too, especially with memory cards. I rub a
> piece of regular copy paper on the card contacts, it acts like like very
> fine sandpaper.

That's a good way for cause ESD. Also, paper burnishes the
contacts. Doing that to something where I worked would require the item
to be scrapped for violating corporate anti static policy.

[Michael A. Terrell]

cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>
> Those "integrated" CMOS devices were used on quite a few motherboards
> back in the 386/486 era. Cannot remember the manufacturere - but when
> the internal battery died you were cooked. I believe it was Dallas
> Semi.


Yes, and Dallas is now owned by Maxim and they still make battery
backed RTC modules, and more RTC chips than you'll ever need.

http://www.maximintegrated.com/products/rtc/

[Michael A. Terrell]

pyotr filipivich wrote:
>
> Michael A. Terrell wrote:
> >
> > I just learned that a severly disabled freind of mine died last night
> >& I'm just not up to it tonight. I only slept a little over three hours
> >last night, and I'm not able to concentrate on anything right now. I
> >was just getting ready to post a message that I would be off the group
> >for a few days to a week, to see if I can help her family. My email is
> >good, so you can contact me off group. I should be in better shape by
> >Tuesday and more than happy to take a look at it. I may even have a
> >spare motherboard that would support the card. Email me and give me the
> >details, I probably won't be back on the group before Monday or Tuesday.
> >
> > To everyone else, this is the second disabled freind who has died in
> >the last couple months. I wasn't able to do anything to help the first,
> >because they can't locate a next of kin. She had a sister, but wouldn't
> >talk about her or even tell where her sister lived. In this case, her
> >yuongest son is disabled and she was all he had.
>
> Memory Eternal.
>
> My prayers go up for you.


Thank you.

[Michael A. Terrell]

Gunner wrote:
>
> Michael A. Terrell> wrote:
> >
> > I just learned that a severly disabled freind of mine died last night
> >& I'm just not up to it tonight. I only slept a little over three hours
> >last night, and I'm not able to concentrate on anything right now. I
> >was just getting ready to post a message that I would be off the group
> >for a few days to a week, to see if I can help her family. My email is
> >good, so you can contact me off group. I should be in better shape by
> >Tuesday and more than happy to take a look at it. I may even have a
> >spare motherboard that would support the card. Email me and give me the
> >details, I probably won't be back on the group before Monday or Tuesday.
> >
> > To everyone else, this is the second disabled freind who has died in
> >the last couple months. I wasn't able to do anything to help the first,
> >because they can't locate a next of kin. She had a sister, but wouldn't
> >talk about her or even tell where her sister lived. In this case, her

> >youngest son is disabled and she was all he had.
>
> Hang tough, and do what you can. We will be waiting for your return.


Thanks. :)

[Michael A. Terrell]

Erik wrote:
>
> Michael A. Terrell wrote:
>

> A good article on bad (bulging) electrolytic capacitors, causes, and
> good photos can be had here:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague
>
> Looks like one major cause of many failed units started roughly around
> the early 2000's, and traces back to a botched industrial espionage
> episode. Details are in the the above article.


Erik, I have been replacing high ESR capacitors for over two
decades. I first used the ESR function on a Sencore LCR meter in 1987.
I now have the original Bob Parker/Dick Smith Electronics ESR meter. :)

[Jim Wilkins]

<cl...@snyder.on.ca> wrote in message
news:6b6la8d4bcuai79r1...@4ax.com...

D series Latitudes are rugged $2000 business travelers' machines, not
like the cheaper consumer models. I've seen a stack of them that
looked like they had been baggage-handler training dummies yet still
worked.

This one is a bit slow, with a 2 GHz Core 2 Duo, but it takes two
internal hard drives (1TB) plus a DVD simultaneously and runs a USB
3.0 Expresscard as fast as the disks can transfer data, about
70-80MB/S. It's set up as a two-channel digital TV recorder and
editor.
jsw

[DoN. Nichols]

On 2012-11-19, cl...@snyder.on.ca <cl...@snyder.on.ca> wrote:
> On 19 Nov 2012 01:08:40 GMT, "DoN. Nichols" <BPdnic...@d-and-d.com>
> wrote:
>

[ ... ]

>> Of course it changed. You *added* memory -- or replaced a
>>failed unit (you didn't say which). It apparently does not know the

>>difference between an increase in available memory and a decrease.

>>(Perhaps this is a side-effect of Windows being designed to consider any
>>change a sign of possibly being moved to a new computer?)
>
> Except the error was not generated by Windows. It is a BIOS prompt.

O.K. Not clear from what was described. So the BIOS keeps the
memory size in CMOS and prompts when it changes?

[ ... ]

>> I still remember the early message (which I first saw on a Wyse
>>PC -- pre Windows even -- which said:
>>
>> Keyboard missing. Hit F1 to continue.
>
> Yup. a lot of old CPM machines did the same. It was a "stacked" error
> code. Anything that tripped the bios error code was reported - and
> then the standard "hit F1 to continue" which was supposed to get you
> into the PIOS setup.

Hmmm ... not on the CP/M machines which I used from time to
time. They used RS-232 connected terminals, and did not have a way to
tell whether the keyboard was present. Perhaps some of the single-board
CP/M machines with a built-in terminal, however.

And -- my Altair 680b did not even *need* a terminal. It could
be jumpered to accept program loading and starting from the front panel
switches. (The only way to load and run a program when I first got it.
:-)

And the Sun workstations, which did have keyboards would simply
detect the missing keyboard, and switch over to use the first serial
port as a terminal -- expecting a terminal to be connected to it. It
was a common way to set up servers, which did not need a graphics
screen or keyboard -- just a terminal to get them started and/or to
diagnostics. Leave out the keyboard or the graphics card (called a
"framebuffer") to switch to a serial terminal as the console.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: <BPdnic...@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

[DoN. Nichols]

On 2012-11-19, Jim Wilkins <murat...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "Gunner" <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:7luka8dlt3ijrm2fl...@4ax.com...

[ ... ]

>> Jim..you either have a bad stick..or the wrong speed/kind or
>> combination, from the looks of it.
>>
>> Gunner
>
> The warning message deceived you too.
>
> When a menu prompt finally appeared I ran the BIOS diagnostics, which
> passed, and then booted into 7, which works fine. It's poor practice
> to leave the user wondering if the program has crashed or ended when a
> long procedure is running silently.

When Sun workstations are booting, or running memory tests, the
monitor ROM display the following characters, all in the same location:

'/', '-', '\', '|'

which looks like a spinning propeller and gives a clue that things are
still happening.

> The new memory passes this thorough test:
> http://www.memtest.org/

I remember an intersting memory test documented in a Motorola
programming manual for the MC6809 CPU. It included a checksum on
itself, and could be relocated anywhere in memory. It used a very good
set of test patterns, and would spot any problem in the memory -- except
speed. The accesses to sequential addresses were sufficiently separated
so it would miss those -- until you relocated it to *run* in the slow
memory. You could leave it in ROM, ready to run whenever you wanted it,
and when it relocated itself, it corrected the checksums to be correct
for the new address in which it was living. (It helped that the 6809
made totally relocatable programs easy to write. :-)

[Gunner]

Do subsequent boots all come up quickly or are they still slow?

Interesting cunundrum and one Ill pay attention to.

[Gunner]

I do it with a green Scotchbright. Seems to work fine if not over
done.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

This stuff wasn't a cleaner, per se - but a "contact conditioner".
Can't remember the name of the stuff - but it sure saved a lot of
trouble on those old boards with about 35 or 40 sockets on them.

Back then we sold computers with a 3 year warranty. Without the "dope"
an AMI motherboard didn't stand a chance. With it, they were pretty
well bulletproof.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On 20 Nov 2012 01:54:12 GMT, "DoN. Nichols" <BPdnic...@d-and-d.com>

wrote:

>On 2012-11-19, cl...@snyder.on.ca <cl...@snyder.on.ca> wrote:
>> On 19 Nov 2012 01:08:40 GMT, "DoN. Nichols" <BPdnic...@d-and-d.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>
> [ ... ]
>
>>> Of course it changed. You *added* memory -- or replaced a
>>>failed unit (you didn't say which). It apparently does not know the
>>>difference between an increase in available memory and a decrease.
>>>(Perhaps this is a side-effect of Windows being designed to consider any
>>>change a sign of possibly being moved to a new computer?)
>>
>> Except the error was not generated by Windows. It is a BIOS prompt.
>
> O.K. Not clear from what was described. So the BIOS keeps the
>memory size in CMOS and prompts when it changes?

Yup. On MANY computers.

>
> [ ... ]
>
>>> I still remember the early message (which I first saw on a Wyse
>>>PC -- pre Windows even -- which said:
>>>
>>> Keyboard missing. Hit F1 to continue.
>>
>> Yup. a lot of old CPM machines did the same. It was a "stacked" error
>> code. Anything that tripped the bios error code was reported - and
>> then the standard "hit F1 to continue" which was supposed to get you
>> into the PIOS setup.
>
> Hmmm ... not on the CP/M machines which I used from time to
>time. They used RS-232 connected terminals, and did not have a way to
>tell whether the keyboard was present. Perhaps some of the single-board
>CP/M machines with a built-in terminal, however.

I'm talking CP/m 86 - virtually a PC. The first computer we had at
the dealership back in the '80s.

[Michael A. Terrell]

cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>
> On Mon, 19 Nov 2012 18:52:30 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"

> ?mike.t...@earthlink.net? wrote:
>
> ?
> ?cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
> ??
> ?? There was a product made for that - can't remember but I think it was
> ?? de-ox-it. Put it on at assembly and NEVER have the problem. The
> ?? concentrate was over $30 an ounce over 20 years ago - but you mixed it
> ?? about 6:1 with ethanol and it went a LONG way.
> ?
> ?
> ? My favorite was contact cleaner was Quiterol, which is long out of
> ?business.

> This stuff wasn't a cleaner, per se - but a "contact conditioner".
> Can't remember the name of the stuff - but it sure saved a lot of
> trouble on those old boards with about 35 or 40 sockets on them.
>
> Back then we sold computers with a 3 year warranty. Without the "dope"
> an AMI motherboard didn't stand a chance. With it, they were pretty
> well bulletproof.

Cramolin?

[Michael A. Terrell]

Gunner wrote:
>
> On Mon, 19 Nov 2012 18:57:00 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"

> ?mike.t...@earthlink.net? wrote:
>
> ?
> ?BQ340 wrote:
> ??
> ?? On 11/17/2012 10:00 AM, Pete C. wrote:
> ?? ?
> ?? ? nob...@nowhere.net wrote:
> ?? ??
> ?? ?? I have restored function to computers by unplugging them from
> ?? ?? electricity and unplugging and re plugging every connector in the
> ?? ?? computer. Doing the unplug/re plug routine gives all the connectors a
> ?? ?? new fresh connection. Corroded memory board contacts will keep the
> ?? ?? computer from booting.
> ?? ?
> ?? ? ^ This. Whenever strange issues start to crop up with a machine that's
> ?? ? fairly old, powering it down and unplugging/replugging every connector a
> ?? ? few times wipes oxide buildup off the contacts and usually solves the
> ?? ? problem.
> ?? ?
> ??
> ?? Yes, I have experienced that too, especially with memory cards. I rub a
> ?? piece of regular copy paper on the card contacts, it acts like like very
> ?? fine sandpaper.
> ?
> ?
> ? That's a good way for cause ESD. Also, paper burnishes the
> ?contacts. Doing that to something where I worked would require the item
> ?to be scrapped for violating corporate anti static policy.

>
> I do it with a green Scotchbright. Seems to work fine if not over
> done.

That can cause static damage, since it's nonconductive. Not all
damage kills an IC right away.

[Michael A. Terrell]

"DoN. Nichols" wrote:
>
> O.K. Not clear from what was described. So the BIOS keeps the
> memory size in CMOS and prompts when it changes?

There is a small EEPROM on the memory board that IDs the size. That
code is copied & stored for comparison. The EEPROM is an I2C interfaced
chip, and small. 24C01, 24C02, 24C04, 24C08 are typical I2C EEPROMS
used on DDR modules. They are tiny eight pin surface mount ICs.

[DoN. Nichols]

On 2012-11-19, cl...@snyder.on.ca <cl...@snyder.on.ca> wrote:

> On 18 Nov 2012 22:48:22 GMT, "DoN. Nichols" <BPdnic...@d-and-d.com>
> wrote:

[ ... ]

>> Hmm ... if it was something made after the ROHS requirement came
>>in, and if the connectors were plated with pure tin to match the
>>requirements, the pure tin grows conductive whiskers -- quickly or over
>>long periods of time. Whiskers across pins in active equipment may be
>>vaporized, while those across unpowered equipment will just stay there
>>until it is powered on. If multiple whiskers bridge a given connection,
>>there may not be sufficient current to blow the whiskers away.
>>
>> But yes, oxidation in connectors -- sitting idle or in frequent
>>use -- can be a problem. My most frequent experience with that was the
>>motherboard of the SWTP 6800 home computer kit. The bus connectors were
>>each a row of fifty pins sticking up, and Molex connectors which slide
>>over those. About once a year I would have to open it up and pull each
>>board off and slide it on a few times to clean the oxide. A real pain,
>>but at least I knew how to fix it. :-)

[ ... ]

> There was a product made for that - can't remember but I think it was

> de-ox-it. Put it on at assembly and NEVER have the problem. The

> concentrate was over $30 an ounce over 20 years ago - but you mixed it

> about 6:1 with ethanol and it went a LONG way.

Cramolin worked well in the time of the AT&T 7300/3B1/Unix-PC
(68010 based desktop unix box), and it was later discontinued for ozone
later problems IIRC, and replace with DeOxit by the same company (both
in aerosol cans). Also, I believe the high-end audiophile vendors were
selling Cramolin's ingrediences in tiny bottles for really high prices
under the name "Tweak". :-) The aerosol cans were not that expensive,
and I bought several.

That product was not available when I was having the problems
with the SWTP computers. I should have spent the extra to get the
gold-plated molex pins and sockets. :-)

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Could be - I honestly don't remember. I just remember it was
gaudawfull expensive, a clear thick gell like K-Y Jelly that we
thinned with ethanol - and it was worth every cent. I think I've still
got a bit hanging around somewhere.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Whatever you use, use it DAMP, and ground yourself. Gives everything
a fighting chance.

[pyotr filipivich]

Gunner <gunne...@gmail.com> on Mon, 19 Nov 2012 10:32:35 -0800 typed
in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

>
>Jim..you either have a bad stick..or the wrong speed/kind or
>combination, from the looks of it.
>

>I had that issue not long ago here. I put in (2) 1 gig sticks and one
>was bad..and both were of the wrong speed. I took them back and
>exchanged them for good ones of the proper speed and that computer now
>works just fine.
>
>Sometimes finding the proper ram configuration can be tough,

Sometimes, "Well this stick will work in this socket, but not in
that one, and that one won't work in either configuration, But if we
put this on in this socket, then the other one will work just fine."

>particularly with some of the "older" machines
>
>Gunner
--
pyotr
Go not to the Net for answers, for it will tell you Yes and no. And
you are a bloody fool, only an ignorant cretin would even ask the
question, forty two, 47, the second door, and how many blonde lawyers
does it take to change a lightbulb.

[Gunner]

Shrug..maybe so. But Ive been doing it for over 15 yrs with no issues
noted.

But thanks for the input. Maybe Ill switch over to pencil erasers or
something?

Gnner

[Michael A. Terrell]

That's even worse. Erasers are abrasive and non conductive, so they
remove the plating and generate static. The approved process was a
little contact sprayed into the socket, and reinsert the device or
board. We used to add a thin film of GC 'Tunerlube' to keep air away
from the mating surfaces.

[Jim Wilkins]

"DoN. Nichols" <BPdnic...@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
news:slrnkalom2.gl...@Katana.d-and-d.com...

>>
>> Except the error was not generated by Windows. It is a BIOS prompt.
>
> O.K. Not clear from what was described. So the BIOS keeps the
> memory size in CMOS and prompts when it changes?
>
>

> Enjoy,
> DoN.

Sure. Go into Setup to see all the things the BIOS detects and saves.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/bios-beginners,1126.html
On my Dells repeatedly hitting F2 during startup opens the BIOS Setup
menu. F12 brings up a choice of one-time boot device which is handy if
you don't want it to hang on a connected USB drive or a CD you left
in, but have diagnostics on bootable flash drives. I use F12 to boot
from my second internal hard drive.
jsw

[Jim Wilkins]

"DoN. Nichols" <BPdnic...@d-and-d.com> wrote in message

news:slrnkalpai.gl...@Katana.d-and-d.com...
> ...>

> I remember an intersting memory test documented in a Motorola
> programming manual for the MC6809 CPU. It included a checksum on
> itself, and could be relocated anywhere in memory. It used a very
> good
> set of test patterns, and would spot any problem in the memory --
> except
> speed. The accesses to sequential addresses were sufficiently
> separated
> so it would miss those -- until you relocated it to *run* in the
> slow
> memory. You could leave it in ROM, ready to run whenever you wanted
> it,
> and when it relocated itself, it corrected the checksums to be
> correct
> for the new address in which it was living. (It helped that the
> 6809
> made totally relocatable programs easy to write. :-)
>
> Enjoy,
> DoN.

The lack of relative jumps was a major annoyance of the 8080
microprocessor. By the time the 6809 came out my homebrew computer was
too far along (and too obsolete) to change, but I did borrow the video
circuit from the 6809-based Radio Shack Color Computer.

I've designed a dynamic memory controller IC and was on the
engineering team building industrial memory chip testers for National
Semiconductor et.al., so I do know something about computer memory.

The testers could program UVPROMS much faster than their specs. We
wrote the pattern in very fast passes repeatedly until all cells read
back correctly, then hit it again a few times to be sure.

Dynamic RAM is supposed to be refreshed at a rapid rate to keep the
charges from leaking out, but in practice it can retain data for many
seconds at room temperature.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_random-access_memory

jsw

[Jim Wilkins]

"Gunner" <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:i9sla8l3h400jetgl...@4ax.com...

> On Mon, 19 Nov 2012 18:25:12 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
> <murat...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>>
>>> Jim..you either have a bad stick..or the wrong speed/kind or
>>> combination, from the looks of it.
>>>
>>> Gunner
>>
>>The warning message deceived you too.
>>
>>When a menu prompt finally appeared I ran the BIOS diagnostics,
>>which
>>passed, and then booted into 7, which works fine. It's poor practice
>>to leave the user wondering if the program has crashed or ended when
>>a
>>long procedure is running silently.
>>
>>The new memory passes this thorough test:
>>http://www.memtest.org/
>>
>>jsw
>
> Do subsequent boots all come up quickly or are they still slow?
>
> Interesting cunundrum and one Ill pay attention to.
>
> Gunner

That delay isn't part of the normal boot sequence. The boot time
varies too much depending on how many tuners and hard drives are
connected for the memory to have much effect. Anyway 7 Media Center
wakes the computer 5 minutes before a recording is scheduled to begin,
and when I boot it manually I allow 15 minutes to aim the antenna for
the strongest signal and fiddle with all the settings and connections
of my complex and not completely reliable OTA TV installation.
Doubling the RAM didn't change the power consumption enough to
register on a KAW.
jsw

[Jim Wilkins]

"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:a5udnQNqmuPImDbN...@earthlink.com...

The 1G sticks I removed have 34C021s on them.
jsw

[Michael A. Terrell]

Are you sure? That doesn't appear to be a valid number. There are
24C02-10 which are a premanenet write protected version of the 24C02 256
* 8 EEPROM.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote in message

news:cOCdnUyfL5_UMzbN...@earthlink.com...

>
> Jim Wilkins wrote:
>>
>>
>> The 1G sticks I removed have 34C021s on them.
>
> Are you sure? That doesn't appear to be a valid number. There
> are
> 24C02-10 which are a premanenet write protected version of the 24C02
> 256
> * 8 EEPROM.

The Atmel part number is 34C02-10.

[Michael A. Terrell]

Jim Wilkins wrote:
>
> "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:cOCdnUyfL5_UMzbN...@earthlink.com...
> >
> > Jim Wilkins wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> The 1G sticks I removed have 34C021s on them.
> >
> > Are you sure? That doesn't appear to be a valid number. There
> > are
> > 24C02-10 which are a premanenet write protected version of the 24C02

TYPO^^

> > 256
> > * 8 EEPROM.
>
> The Atmel part number is 34C02-10.

That's what I meant to type, but I see so many 24xxx series I didn't
notice the error. I have a copy of that data sheet in my archives.

[DoN. Nichols]

On 2012-11-20, Jim Wilkins <murat...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> "DoN. Nichols" <BPdnic...@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
> news:slrnkalom2.gl...@Katana.d-and-d.com...
>>>
>>> Except the error was not generated by Windows. It is a BIOS prompt.
>>
>> O.K. Not clear from what was described. So the BIOS keeps the
>> memory size in CMOS and prompts when it changes?
>>
>>
>> Enjoy,
>> DoN.
>
> Sure. Go into Setup to see all the things the BIOS detects and saves.
> http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/bios-beginners,1126.html

Does not apply to my Sun workstations. Instead, the "eeprom"
command (from a booted system) or the "printenv" command (from the boot
ROM) will list what I have in the equivalent:

======================================================================
# eeprom
test-args: data not available.
diag-passes=1
enclosure-type=540-3256-15
banner-name=Sun Blade 2000/1000
energystar-enabled?=true
pcia-probe-list=4,1
pcib-probe-list=5,6,1,2,3,4
local-mac-address?=false
fcode-debug?=false
silent-mode?=false
scsi-initiator-id=7
oem-logo: data not available.
oem-logo?=false
oem-banner: data not available.
oem-banner?=false
ansi-terminal?=true
screen-#columns=80
screen-#rows=34
ttyb-rts-dtr-off=false
ttyb-ignore-cd=true
ttya-rts-dtr-off=false
ttya-ignore-cd=true
ttyb-mode=9600,8,n,1,-
ttya-mode=9600,8,n,1,-
output-device=screen:r1920x1080x60d
input-device=keyboard
load-base=16384
auto-boot?=true
boot-command=boot
diag-file: data not available.
diag-device=disk:f
boot-file: data not available.
boot-device=disk
use-nvramrc?=true
nvramrc=devalias cdrom1 /pc1@8,700000/scsi@2,1/disk@6,0:f
security-mode=none
security-password: data not available.
security-#badlogins=0
#power-cycles=89
diag-script=none
diag-level=min
diag-switch?=false
error-reset-recovery=boot
======================================================================

A totally different set of options with a different CPU. I don't
use much of the Intel-based machines.

> On my Dells repeatedly hitting F2 during startup opens the BIOS Setup
> menu. F12 brings up a choice of one-time boot device which is handy if
> you don't want it to hang on a connected USB drive or a CD you left
> in, but have diagnostics on bootable flash drives. I use F12 to boot
> from my second internal hard drive.

Again -- something specific to the Intel based machines designed
to run Windows. Not even present on the Intel-based Mac Mini, since it
is not intended to run Windows as the primary OS. If I want to
interrupt a boot attempt (because of a bad or missing hard disk), I hit
"STOP-A" (the "STOP" key in the left hand set of function keys, and
holding it down, hit 'A' as well), and that gets me into the boot ROM,
where I can say something like "boot cdrom" -- or run diagnostics from
the boot ROM itself. One of the settings in the example above is a
"nvramrc" command which allows me to say "boot cdrom1" to boot from a
second CD-ROM drive plugged into an external SCSI bus.

[DoN. Nichols]

On 2012-11-20, Jim Wilkins <murat...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

Even the 6800 allowed limited relative jumps ("branch" they called
it -- with an 8-bit signed offset, so it would allow +) The 6809 not
only could branch relative to anywhere in memory (with various sized
instructions, depending on the distance, including a single-byte
instruction which had a three bit offset built in), but also could
access data using the program counter as an index register, so it made
totally position-independent programs easy to write. OS-9 took
advantage of this to make a unix-like OS which did not need memory
mapping hardware and swap space. A program would run where-ever there
was space to put it.

> By the time the 6809 came out my homebrew computer was
> too far along (and too obsolete) to change, but I did borrow the video
> circuit from the 6809-based Radio Shack Color Computer.

And, the CoCo also had a version of OS-9 available for it. I
had a CoCo and ran that for a while -- just to see how good OS-9 was on
such a limited bit of hardware -- even using a bit-banger interface for
the serial port -- but you could log in through that with no problems,
other than it taking a bit more CPU time per byte read in or sent out. :-)

> I've designed a dynamic memory controller IC and was on the
> engineering team building industrial memory chip testers for National
> Semiconductor et.al., so I do know something about computer memory.

Aha! My first experience with dynamic memory was at work on the
PC clones, and later at home with the CoCo. My previous machines used
static memory instead, which was much simpler to design for. :-)

Oh yes -- my COSMOS CMS-16/UNX (a 68000 based machine running v7
unix did have dynamic memory -- complete with ECC built in. And one of
the boards went non-compos-mentis after a while, and I finally tracked
the problem down to a delay line module (in a 14-pin DIP) which had
failed. It was used to generate the RAS and CAS pulses for the dynamic
RAM, and was my first experience with troubleshooting it.

> The testers could program UVPROMS much faster than their specs. We
> wrote the pattern in very fast passes repeatedly until all cells read
> back correctly, then hit it again a few times to be sure.

Nice! Any idea how long the EPROMS would hold their data with
that system? I've still got some 1702s in my Altair 680b which are
about 38 years old by now, and which still have their data last I
checked (about a year ago, IIRC). They were programmed using the ProLog
programmer. I've also got a Data-I/O programmer -- but no module
capable of programming the 1702, which wsa an offensively complex one
to program. I remember an article in (I think) Popular Electronics,
making a programmer for the 1702 which elicited serious and loud
complaints about it using EML (Electro-Magnetic-Logic -- relays) to
switch the lines.

> Dynamic RAM is supposed to be refreshed at a rapid rate to keep the
> charges from leaking out, but in practice it can retain data for many
> seconds at room temperature.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_random-access_memory

Sure. The longer you wait, the more likely you will encounter
lost bits, of course. :-) There are always some bits with a faster
leakage rate than the rest.

[DoN. Nichols]

On 2012-11-20, Gunner <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Nov 2012 18:57:00 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
><mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>BQ340 wrote:

[ ... ]

>>> Yes, I have experienced that too, especially with memory cards. I rub a
>>> piece of regular copy paper on the card contacts, it acts like like very
>>> fine sandpaper.
>>
>>
>> That's a good way for cause ESD. Also, paper burnishes the
>>contacts. Doing that to something where I worked would require the item
>>to be scrapped for violating corporate anti static policy.
>
>
> I do it with a green Scotchbright. Seems to work fine if not over
> done.

Hmm ... what about a Pink Perl for the task? probably less
likely to generate static zaps.

[Michael A. Terrell]

"DoN. Nichols" wrote:
>
> On 2012-11-20, Gunner <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Mon, 19 Nov 2012 18:57:00 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
> ><mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>BQ340 wrote:
>
> [ ... ]
>
> >>> Yes, I have experienced that too, especially with memory cards. I rub a
> >>> piece of regular copy paper on the card contacts, it acts like like very
> >>> fine sandpaper.
> >>
> >>
> >> That's a good way for cause ESD. Also, paper burnishes the
> >>contacts. Doing that to something where I worked would require the item
> >>to be scrapped for violating corporate anti static policy.
> >
> >
> > I do it with a green Scotchbright. Seems to work fine if not over
> > done.
>
> Hmm ... what about a Pink Perl for the task? probably less
> likely to generate static zaps.

Still banned on the production floor.

[Gunner]

On Tue, 20 Nov 2012 07:29:35 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"

Thanks for the heads up!

Gunner

[Michael A. Terrell]

Gunner wrote:
>
> Michael A. Terrell wrote:
> ?
> ?Gunner wrote:
> ??
> ?? But thanks for the input. Maybe Ill switch over to pencil erasers or
> ?? something?
> ?

> ? That's even worse. Erasers are abrasive and non conductive, so they

> ?remove the plating and generate static. The approved process was a
> ?little contact sprayed into the socket, and reinsert the device or
> ?board. We used to add a thin film of GC 'Tunerlube' to keep air away
> ?from the mating surfaces.

>
> Thanks for the heads up!

You're welcome, as always. There are a lot of non-obvious things in
electronics manufacturing & repair.

[Jim Wilkins]

"DoN. Nichols" <BPdnic...@d-and-d.com> wrote in message

news:slrnkanis7.fe...@Katana.d-and-d.com...

> ...
>
> Enjoy,
> DoN.

I don't see /dev/hda0 or /sda0 enumerated on that list.
jsw

[Jim Wilkins]

"DoN. Nichols" <BPdnic...@d-and-d.com> wrote in message

news:slrnkankr4.fe...@Katana.d-and-d.com...

>
> Even the 6800 allowed limited relative jumps ("branch" they called
> it -- with an 8-bit signed offset, so it would allow +) The 6809 not
> only could branch relative to anywhere in memory (with various sized
> instructions, depending on the distance, including a single-byte
> instruction which had a three bit offset built in), but also could
> access data using the program counter as an index register, so it
> made
> totally position-independent programs easy to write.
>

> Enjoy,
> DoN.

By the time the 6809 came out I had written an editor and assembler
for my 8080 machine and definitely appreciated the 6809's advantages,
like getting a DRO after years of counting dial turns (which I still
do at home). The closest I came to using it was writing an A/D
converter device driver for the 68000 Macintosh, in LabVIEW-generated
machine language of all things!
jsw

[DoN. Nichols]

On 2012-11-20, Jim Wilkins <murat...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> "DoN. Nichols" <BPdnic...@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
> news:slrnkanis7.fe...@Katana.d-and-d.com...
>> On 2012-11-20, Jim Wilkins <murat...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Sure. Go into Setup to see all the things the BIOS detects and
>>> saves.
>>> http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/bios-beginners,1126.html
>>
>> Does not apply to my Sun workstations. Instead, the "eeprom"
>> command (from a booted system) or the "printenv" command (from the
>> boot
>> ROM) will list what I have in the equivalent:
>>
>> ======================================================================

[ ... ]
>> boot-device=disk

[ ... ]

>> nvramrc=devalias cdrom1 /pc1@8,700000/scsi@2,1/disk@6,0:f

[ ... ]

>> ======================================================================

[ ... ]

> I don't see /dev/hda0 or /sda0 enumerated on that list.

No. you wouldn't. The first looks like a linux device name, and
the second is sort of close to the name for the old BSD based Suns.
/dev/sd0a would be it there.

The names under solaris are like this:

/dev/dsk/c1t0d0s1, which expand to something similar to the
cdrom1 one inside the OS. The format of that is as follows:

c1 Controller -- this system (a Sun Blade 2000) has built-in
SCSI for the CDROM and an optional tape drive
and an external SCSI. The controller names are
allocated in order in which they are first used,
and since you normally boot from the cdrom, its
SCSI controller becomes c0, and c1 is the Fibre
Channel which handles the internal two disks and
up to about 252 external ones on a loop.

t1 -- The SCSI ID on the bus of the device, ranges
from 0 to 7 on old narrow SCSI, and 0-15 on the
wide SCSI used these days (and up to 254 for the
Fibre Channel drives, with t1 and t2 being the
internal ones in a Sun Blade 2000, and t0 and t1
being the internal ones in a Sun Fire 280r,
which uses the same system board (motherboard in
PC terms).

d0 -- Device number -- old SCSI systems used MFM or
esdi disks on an adaptor which made them look
like SCSI, and you could have up to eight disks
on a single SCSI ID, depending on the adaptor.
Pretty much always d0 these days.

s1 -- "slice" (partition), what would be the 'a'
through 'h' on old systems like SunOs 4.1.4, and
through 'o' on OpenBSD, and likely NetBSD as
well, though I don't have experience with that.

But the boot devices are listed in the devalias, which is only
accessible from the boot ROM. The second remaining quoted entry is what
allocates a second CD-ROM to the list, so you can type "boot cdrom1" to
boot from it.

The "boot-device" entry from the eeprom listing (first quoted
entry) is the default device -- which can be a list of drives, and
actually on this system, there is a mirrored pair of disks using zfs so
it can boot from either -- even if the other is dead. Instead of using
the "disk" alias you can type in a long string to force a disk of your
own choice -- whether it is in the system box or external on SCSI, FC,
or USB.

If you don't have a devalias, you can type that long complicated
string:

boot /pc1@8,700000/scsi@2,1/disk@6,0:f

but the chances of an error are high, so it is better to use a devalias,
and to have the eeprom install it on power-up.

[DoN. Nichols]

On 2012-11-20, Jim Wilkins <murat...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

Well ... that would be faster than any compiler output of that
period. And the 68000 had an amazing set of instructions, boosted with
the later ones in the family. By the time of the 68020 or 68030, there
was a single instruction which would look up an entry in a
two-dimensional array of a fixed size -- all specified in registers.
When compared to the code generated by the c compiler in the COSMOS
CMS-16/UNX (plain 68000), which treated the 68000 as a PDP-11/LSI-11,
ignoring any instructions other than the LNK and ULINK (create and
destroy stack frames on entry to and exit from subroutines in c), the
savings is amazing. (I wound up wondering why an 8 MHz 68000 was so
much slower than a 10 MHz 68010 (AT&T Unix-PC), so I investigated the
assembly language intermediate code from the compilers -- the AT&T one
was much more efficient. (The 68000 one was a port of v7 unix by
Unisoft, IIRC. :-) Hmm ... the company name is still around, but in Oz
these days, and not making OS ports. :-)