drill sharpening FAQ?
Elliot Burke
away and don't work right when dull. Being too cheap to buy new ones all
the time, have wasted much time making them even duller.
Is there somewhere a good treatment of angles on a drill and how to achieve
them?
Freehand if need be, or simple jigs for using grinders?
Some of the bits are small, #60 or less, up to 1 1/2" (but they are all
dull).
Elliot Burke
KD6JDJ
Elliot
If you dont get a satisfactory answer from one of the thousands of readers
who know more about sharpening than I do -- e-mail me
If the drill is only dull , and not broken , it is fairly easy to resharpen
them with a clean , squared off , bench grinder.
Jerry kd6...@aol.com
James Harvey
your drills far better than you can freehand. It will pay for itself in no
time at all and you'll have nice sharp drills that make round holes.
Check out www.darex.com for all the information.
Jim Harvey
Elliot Burke wrote in message ...
Robert Swinney
drill >1/8< by hand and do a credible job -- you just can't hold that
steady. Sorry, Jerry.
Bob Swinney
James Harvey wrote in message <7ticj5$8du$1...@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>...
Robert Bastow
Robert Swinney wrote:
>
> I don't think anyone could sharpen a small
> drill >1/8< by hand and do a credible job -- you just can't hold that
> steady. Sorry, Jerry.
> Bob Swinney
Don't bet the farm on that Bob? ;^)
teenut
mull...@advinc.com
Robert Bastow <tee...@home.com> wrote:
>
>
> Robert Swinney wrote:
> >
> > I don't think anyone could sharpen a small
> > drill >1/8< by hand and do a credible job --
> Don't bet the farm on that Bob? ;^)
Of course one can hand-shapen small drills, and do a
reasonably good job. But to inspect it and see if it
will cut decently requires a pretty good microscope,
not just a loupe.
A hand-sharpened drill will not consistently meet the
quality standards of a commercial drill. The Guhring
parabolic flute drills I was using at work were a
real life-saver for drilling deep holes in tough material.
For drilling one or two holes in a home shop, a hand
sharpened small drill is just fine. But if the job
in question is at work, my boss would scream at me if
I didn't use the best tool available for it. Those
drills are amazingly cheap for what they do.
Jim
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Robert Bastow
Chalk and cheese
I don't dispute anything you say about needing the very best when you are
cutting metal for a living.
But I do strongly object to giving struggling amateur learners, on a
RECREATIONAL.CRAFTS.METALWORKING list the impression that they can't grind a
drill, perfectly satisfactorily, by hand and without a microscope.
That, dear boy is BULLSHIT!
teenut
Who has never used a drill drinder or a microscope and has drilled more holes
for business and pleasure than most people have had hot dinners!
John Jacobs
Bob & Marilyn Tonkins
Bless you guys. I've enjoyed your posts. But, as Teenut has suggested
in his own inimitable way, you and all who say you can't hand sharpen
ANY SIZE DRILL need to step up to the bar. Hand sharpening is an easily
obtainable skill for the HSM.
I sharpened 1/8" and 3/16" drills for over twenty years in the shop and
ROUTINELY drilled 12" deep with them and never ; NOT ONCE; sharpened one
on a machine sharpener. And, JIM, I never used a Loupe. And I wear
"bottle glass" eyeglasses. BTW, I also sharpened eight times out of ten,
drills up to 5-1/4" in diameter. (We had a lazy tool crib guy) This
"Bob" has weighed in on this subject before. I sincerely wish that
everyone who throws away dull drills would post them to me! I've dealt
with Darex and others, and they make wonderful products, but a HSM,
ALMOST BY DEFINITION, doesn't NEED a sharpener (save the one at the ends
of their wrists). [And I went into my apprenticeship with seven fingers
- and the right hand has TWO - And I'm right handed]
Truly (and I'm not just zinging "BOB" or JIM either). All you HSM folks,
master this rudimentary skill; it won't just HAPPEN. Do this not the
least for your own pride and enjoyment!
BobT
Ned Simmons
And the larger problem is describing in text how it's done.
I can't claim I've never used a drill grinder, but I will say I've never
used one that was worth the trouble, unless you were doing many bits of
the same size. In the time it takes to set up any I've used, you can
sharpen several bits by hand close enough for most purposes.
Spend the money you would have spent on the sharpener on new bits to have
on hand when a hand sharpened bit isn't good enough.
The first step in sharpening by hand is understanding how the bit cuts.
Take a look in Machinery's Handbook, or wherever, to get a feel for drill
geometry if you don't feel you understand it.
Now here's my technique, as best as I can explain it. I'm sure everyone
has their own method.
Rest the pinky of your right hand on the tool rest of the grinder with
your palm facing you and fingers cupped. Hold the bit just behind the tip
between your thumb and index finger with shank of the bit heading
downhill and at the proper angle to the wheel for the desired point
angle. (You can make some marks on the rest to help eyeball this angle.)
Bring the trailing end of the flute into contact with the wheel and roll
the bit counter-clockwise between the thumb and forefinger while lifting
the tail end of the drill with your left hand. You're working from the
non-cutting tail of the flute toward the cutting lip. This assumes of
course, a RH bit.
Check your progress and repeat. The hardest part is getting the chisel
angle correct (that is, the angle of the intersection of the lips as
viewed end on). If this is too far off the bit will require excessive
pressure to cut.
I'm sure that anyone with a bit of manual dexterity and the patience to
understand the drill geometry can do this with some practice. I do it
regularly on bits down to #43 (4-40 tap drill) for bits used in a hand
drill.
Ned Simmons
In article <37FF7B4D...@home.com>, tee...@home.com says...
Mike Graham
>Bob Swinney/Jim . . .
>ALMOST BY DEFINITION, doesn't NEED a sharpener (save the one at the ends
>of their wrists). [And I went into my apprenticeship with seven fingers
>- and the right hand has TWO - And I'm right handed]
I've sharpened a few drills by hand, myself, though assuredly not as many
as you, and I consider it to be a pretty trivial exercise if you're just
touching up an edge, but when it comes to chipped or otherwise maimed
bits... that's rough. If I pick up a set of 'previously enjoyed' bits at a
garage sale, I always set up the ole' General bit sharpener so that I can
get them to a known ground-zero condition. I don't use bits smaller than
1/8" often enough to need to sharpen them, so I'll keep quiet on that score.
8-)
--
Mike Graham, mikegraham at sprint dot ca
Caledon, Ontario, Canada (just NW of Toronto).
Raiser of animals. Weldor of metals. Driver of off-road vehicles.
Writer of FAQs. Keeper of the faith, and all around okay guy.
< homepage currently off-line due to change of ISP; back soon >
Mike Graham
>I can't claim I've never used a drill grinder, but I will say I've never
>used one that was worth the trouble, unless you were doing many bits of
>the same size. In the time it takes to set up any I've used, you can
>sharpen several bits by hand close enough for most purposes.
The General is *quite* fast, especially if you go from
biggest-to-smallest, but I don't use it for just touching up bits unless I'm
touching up a whole set or something.
>Bring the trailing end of the flute into contact with the wheel and roll
>the bit counter-clockwise between the thumb and forefinger while lifting
>the tail end of the drill with your left hand. You're working from the
>non-cutting tail of the flute toward the cutting lip. This assumes of
>course, a RH bit.
I always cut from the lip backwards because a) it's easier to line up and
get the angle right, and b) the lip will stay cooler if it's cut before
there is already heat in the bit. But as you say, everyone has their own
way. 8-)
>angle correct (that is, the angle of the intersection of the lips as
>viewed end on). If this is too far off the bit will require excessive
>pressure to cut.
This is what drives me up the wall when I'm trying to bring a bit back
from the dead. Touching up is totally a no brainer, but getting everything
just right when you have to cut a bunch off really sucks. Like for
instance, I've got a 1/2" bit that I was running through a piece of 2"
squaretube, and yes, I was in a hurry, and it got jammed, and I tried
reversing it out, and about an inch of flute broke off both sides. What to
do? I've got to cut the end off and start from scratch, and for *that* kind
of thing I rely on The General to see me through.
Grant Erwin
" Hand sharpening is an easily obtainable skill for the HSM.
Well, there ya go. HSM's, if they're like me, only have a few hours a month
to do everything. If you have twenty years to learn a motor skill, no wonder
it seems like falling off a log for you.
The best solution IMHO for a HSM is a Darex M3 setup. For about $300 you
get drills that are sharpened RIGHT. Doesn't work for tiny drills or those
larger than 1/2" (tho you can get a bigger chuck that will get you up to
3/4") but most of the drills I use are in the 1/16"-1/2" range. I touch
up even new drills. It's surprising how often you see slight grinding
errors, while you're correcting them, of course. It takes about 60
seconds, no exaggeration, to walk up to the grinder with a bit, sharpen
it, put everything away and have a perfect bit profile.
The side benefit is that EVERYONE I know who has a drill press has a box
of dull drills that let's just say they aren't too attached to. This tool
won't ever pay for itself, but I have had one for awhile now and I really
like it. Oh yeah, it's all metal, not like the Drill Doctor which is made
of plastic.
Grant Erwin
Kirkland, Washington
Robert Bastow
Ned Simmons wrote:
>
> And the larger problem is describing in text how it's done.
>
Dead right Ned!
It takes a lot longer to write about than it takes to *learn* the
technique...Never mind do it!
teenut
Robert Bastow
John Jacobs wrote:
>
> AMEN
Church is tomorrow John!
AMEN to WHAT?
teenut
Robert Bastow
cent problem. One that doesn't work for "tiny drills and those above 1/2" to
boot!!
I think Darex are paying hidden commissions here!! (Just Kidding Grant) ;^)
I could teach anyone on this list how to grind a drill in less time than it
would take for them to drive down to the hardware store to buy the bolts to
fasten a darex onto the bench.
It is (Was?) considered a fundamental "first grade" skill among machinists.
Learned first couple of days on the job..not twenty years!!
Even today I doubt you will find a drill grinder in many Jobbing Shops, and any
so called "Skilled Machinist" that wandered around with a dull drill in hand
looking for a drill grinder..or. (Ferchrissakes)) a new drill, wouldn't make it
through his first day!!
teenut
Bob & Marilyn Tonkins
Don't wanta beat this to death, but I guess I wasn't clear enough about
my learning path. YES, I have OVER twenty years drill grinding practice.
But I wouldn't have lasted past the first MONTH if I couldn't sharpen a
drill. And I think you'd find that experience replicated in most every
"pro"s experience. I have no problem with someone not WANTING to learn
sharpening. That's cool. But to posit it as esoteric knowledge is silly.
Its really the same as any skill. Now, for example, I'm
hunting-and-pecking my way through this email. Those of you who went
through the arduous days of keyboarding training are coasting now while
I slave. On the other hand, I HAD to learn my tables. Others will read
charts till they die. It's always true. The hardest way in is the
easiest way out. It's YOUR choice. But, if you don't TRY, you've got no
choice; you're paying thru the nose (or Darex, or MSC) till death.
Respectfully presenting an option,
BobT
Grant Erwin wrote:
>
> " Hand sharpening is an easily obtainable skill for the HSM.
> I sharpened 1/8" and 3/16" drills for over twenty years in the shop.."
>
> Well, there ya go. HSM's, if they're like me, only have a few hours a month
> to do everything. If you have twenty years to learn a motor skill, no wonder
> it seems like falling off a log for you.
>
> The best solution IMHO for a HSM is a Darex M3 setup. For about $300 you
> get drills that are sharpened RIGHT. Doesn't work for tiny drills or those
John Jacobs
I was responding to "That dear boy, is bullshit".
John Jacobs
John Jacobs
grind it flat, and have us grind it back. Of course we used a drill
guage to keep the lip lenghts correct. After we did it, he would do it
again, etc. What no one has mentioned is that as you resharpen a drill,
the web gets thicker. Sharpening a drill, and thinning the web is on
page two. How to read a steel rule is on page one.
gcouger
Mike Graham wrote in message ...
>On Sat, 09 Oct 1999 21:12:39 GMT, Robert Bastow wrote:
>
>>It takes a lot longer to write about than it takes to *learn* the
>>technique...Never mind do it!
>
were drilled with a 1 1/64 bit sharpened to cut on one lip and
pushed at twice the feed as normal with water based coolant.
The reason for cutting on one lip was to keep the chip from
tangling. It speeded up production by a good deal.
I have also drilled flat bottom 1/4 holes to .002 tolerance in
air craft and worst of all drilled holes in Plexiglas.
Once you learn what a drill is supposed to look like and what
it takes to grind it that way it is pretty easy from 1/4 up. Below
1/8 it is pretty tricky for me. I have trouble seeing what I am
doing.
A properly sharpened bit will out drill a new bit nearly every time
if you sharpen the bit for the material you are drilling.
Now I am out of practice and it takes a few tries to get one to
work.
Gordon
Gordon Couger gco...@couger.com
Stillwater, OK
David Harmon
The whole thing, presumably.
When my H. F. drill bits get dull I just rub them on the sidewalk, makes
them good as new.
Mike Graham
>It takes a lot longer to write about than it takes to *learn* the
>technique...Never mind do it!
I'm used to a fabricating environment where you want to do things *fast*,
and the tolerances aren't hideously tight. Usually the only bench grinder
around is the one for the TIG tungstens, and if anyone catches you grinding
a drill bit on it, you are a dead man. The only other option is trying to
touch one up with a disc grinder, which I *have* resorted to, but it isn't
easy, or terribly effective.
When I started working in a machine shop, it was a different world, of
course. There were *four* bench grinders, with 8 different kinds of wheels
for every possible need. These guys reshaped bits as a matter of course.
Going to be drilling some brass? Change the lip angle. No problem.
When I asked the shop's tool and die maker, Laeton, to sharpen a chipped
bit for me he asked "Why don't you do it yourself?" I told him that it
wasn't my bit, and I didn't want to screw it up. "But it's *easy*." he
said. This, of course, is what you always hear from guys who've been doing
it for umpteen years.
It seems simple in theory. Sharpen it to a pencil-point by rotating it
against the wheel. Hell, the fine side of a lot of grinders have a little
trough stamped into the el-cheapo toolrest for just this purpose! How hard
is *that*? Once you have the pencil point, then you just touch it up like
normal - while holding the drill bit horizontal with the lips towards the
grinder, hold one lip horizontal and bring it up flat against the wheel
watching to make sure that you get an even spark line. Now drop the heel of
the drill bit fairly slowly to grind the relief. The whole grinding part
takes 2 seconds, maybe 3 for a bigger bit. Now do the other lip. Hell,
there's nothing *to* it.
Well, the problem is that I've seen the results of mis-ground bits, and
it's pretty ugly. If the lips are different lengths you're going to have a
way-too-big hole. If the angles of the lipss are different then you're also
going to have an oversized hole, and the bit will dull in half the time
because only one lip cuts. If you get *both* the angle and the length
wrong, it's hideous. For me, it'd take me a good 10 minutes to get the bit
back into fighting trim, and with my luck I'd over-quench the HSS bit and it
would spider-fracture.
It's one thing to try it with bits at home, but it's quite another to
screw up somebody else's.
A drill gauge helps a lot for sharpening, but the starret one is
hellaciously expensive; a General protractor-doohickey does the job almost
as well for a few bucks.
My suggestion to you folks who would want to learn would be to pick up
some crappy 1/2" bits at a flea market somewhere and screw around with them.
Try to grind them like I wrote above, then look at the lips head-on and
compare them to a new or like-new bit. Look the same? No? Try again. Try
to take consistent cuts off of each lip. Kind of like a golf swing - be
consistent. It's better to take four consistent cuts than one big one,
because you need to do the same on the other side.
PKDickman
writes:
>I could teach anyone on this list how to grind a drill in less time than it
>would take for them to drive down to the hardware store to buy the bolts to
>fasten a darex onto the bench.
I took a welding for non tech majors course in college. Being for non techs the
prof was pretty loose about the curriculum, but he said you have to learn one
thing to pass. That was how to sharpen a drill bit. He explained how the bit
really works and showed us all how to sharpen. I learned in a half hour a skill
I still use daily.
Sure if I have to drill a 1/16 in hole 5 in deep I'll buy a new bit, but most
holes are less than two diameters and don't need a microscope perfect drill.
Paul K. Dickman
Robert Bastow
For the benefit of the doubters..How long did it take to get it right..the first
lesson?
How long does it take you now?
One of out jregular jobs in the apprentice training school (All jobs were
regular production jobs...no "Test Pieces") was to drill #80 holes in some
stainless nozzles.
Usually you got a batch of 100 to do and you were issued with ONE NEW DRILL!
The job, which entailed machining complete, from barstock, including several
diameters, threaded section etc, was done on an OLD Herbert # 1 capstan
lathe..not a sensitive, high speed drilling machine.
The drill, which usually didn't cut worth a toss, right out of the packet, had
to be sharpened with a slip stone and an eye glass (loupe) You quickly got the
hang of it..and could feel/hear/sense when it was cutting right. Properly
sharpened, the #80 drill would drill 20 to 30 holes 1/8" through, before needing
to be touched up.
The incentive to "get it right"? First time you broke a drill the Forman would
look at you like something that crawled from under a stone and molested his
virgin daughter.
Most people only ever broke one drill!
Second time came the "Walk of Shame"!! You would be draped with a flour sack
"Poncho", a hangmans nose set loosely round your neck. You would be handed the
broken drill and "Banged around the shop" ie lead by the rope around the shop
while 50 or so Apprentices banged on their machine locker doors with anything
that came to hand!!
teenut
Robert Bastow
loses messages older than a few days..without a quoted reference I have no Idea
what subject is being referred to. 8^)
teenut
mull...@advinc.com
Robert Bastow <tee...@home.com> wrote:
> But I do strongly object to giving struggling amateur learners, on a
> RECREATIONAL.CRAFTS.METALWORKING list the impression that they can't
> grind a
> drill, perfectly satisfactorily, by hand and without a microscope.
Go back and read my comments - I was agreeing with you.
Your condescention ill-suits you.
> That, dear boy is BULLSHIT!
> teenut
> Who has never used a drill grinder or a microscope...
You should give the microscope a try sometime. Actually
quite valuable for getting a good view of lots of things like
cutting edges.
Robert Bastow
Sorry if I mispoke you!
Ref Microscope..I meant I have never used one to grind a drill..YET! I recently
acquired a Christen drill grinder, which is equiped with its own seting
microscope.
I hasten to add..lest I be misunderstood ;^) I bought it only because it looked
pretty, and it was lonely, and it was cheap, and it looked to have the makings
of a nice little T & C grinder..sort of a cross between a Deckel and a Quorn!!
I have used microscopes many times for other purposes..checking tool edges,
measuring details and lookig endlessly at micrographic samples of metal alloys
in the days when I *almost* became a Metallurgist.
Mater of fact I am watching Ebay now for a half decent stereo toolmakers
microscope..But not for grinding drills!! 8^)
teenut
Robert Bastow
David Harmon wrote:
> When my H. F. drill bits get dull I just rub them on the sidewalk, makes
> them good as new.
Now THERE"S a Guy after my own heart!!
teenut
gcouger
Robert Bastow wrote in message <38000D38...@home.com>...
>I bet he had you drill a check hole with the drill to make sure it cut on
size!
>
>For the benefit of the doubters..How long did it take to get it right..the
first
>lesson?
To learn to sharpen a bit so it worked resonaly well took about 4 hours.
For cutting on one lip it didn't take very long. For cutting flat bottom
holes
it took a lot of tries. In the aircraft shop I would check the drill every
time I sharpened it with a test hole. And on those flat bottomed things
I inspected every part as soon as it was drilled with 8 of these things.
I always drilled them first so when I killed a part it didn't have much
time in it.
The meanest drilling job I ever saw was the grease hole on the
Jesus bolt on a helicopter. The bolt was 8 & 1/2 inches long and
the hole was 1/16. I never had to drill one. And the bolt was 4140
with a 90,000 yield. Not exactly soft. I used some of the bolts with
broken drills in them for tooling and they weren't easy to cut.
Robert Bastow
John Flanagan
wrote:
>
>
>John Jacobs wrote:
>>
>> AMEN
>
>Church is tomorrow John!
Teenut goes to church??
John Jacobs
chuck, do you only put the key in one hole and tighten or do you put it
in all three?
Best regards, Chuck key
Mike Graham
>This is getting old. How about a new topic. When tightening a a drill
>chuck, do you only put the key in one hole and tighten or do you put it
>in all three?
Most of the time I use only one. I'd never even *heard* of using all
three until I started to work in a machine shop. The guys there claim that
if you don't use all three holes the bit may not be centered, and you might
wear the fingers irregularly. I still only use one hole most of the time,
but if I'm using a bit bigger than 1/2" or so, or I'm drilling a hole that I
have some trepidation about, then I use all three.
Personally, I think that the only difference is that by using all three
holes you are cranking three times, and you tend to put a little more pepper
on it than just doing it once, even if you think you're turning the key
equally as hard each time. However, greater minds than mine have said it's
important, so I do it when I think it's necessary.
lha...@unm.edu
...lew...
Elliot Burke
them with a microscope, drilling and measuring some holes.
Elliot Burke
Elliot Burke <ell...@hitide.com> wrote in message
news:DOOK3.577$MX1....@newsfeed.avtel.net...
> I need to go to school on sharpening drills. The darn things just won't
go
> away and don't work right when dull. Being too cheap to buy new ones all
> the time, have wasted much time making them even duller.
> Is there somewhere a good treatment of angles on a drill and how to
achieve
> them?
> Freehand if need be, or simple jigs for using grinders?
> Some of the bits are small, #60 or less, up to 1 1/2" (but they are all
> dull).
>
> Elliot Burke
>
>
brian whatcott
>
>This is getting old. How about a new topic. When tightening a a drill
>chuck, do you only put the key in one hole and tighten or do you put it
>in all three?
>
If you are using a cheap import drill press, then you tighten once, drill,
tighten again, drill then repeat the process.
But at least you can reliably sharpen your bits to equal angles, equal
relief, equal projection with a ten dollar swivelling jig mounted on the
ways for the grindstone held in the three jaw, something that artisans
only think they can do. :-)
Brian Whatcott Altus OK
Gerald Miller
satisfaction, that using all three holes results in a tighter grip. I
suspect it has something to do with the small amount of slack in any chuck.
It also makes it much harder to loosen - I have had the sore hands to prove
it :-)>
--
Gerry
London, Canada
John Jacobs <JN...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:23241-38...@newsd-262.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
Gerald Miller
purchase it - "I'll have half a tonne of helicopter Jesus bolts please" :-)>
Gerry
London, Canada
gcouger <gco...@mercury.rfdata.net> wrote in message
news:kxWL3.3815$oq.2...@newsfeed.slurp.net...
mull...@advinc.com
Robert Bastow <tee...@home.com> wrote:
> The drill, which usually didn't cut worth a toss, right out of the
> packet, had
> to be sharpened with a slip stone and an eye glass (loupe)...
Hold on there. First you've never resorted to a microscope to sharpen
a drill. Yet in the above narrative, there's the loupe.
Hmm. Did you also walk 17 miles to school every day, in snow
"up to here" wearing nothing but that flour sack?
Any shop that would rather have it's workers re-sharpening
drills like that (strictly a waste of time in a production environment)
rather than making parts, is probably long since out of business.
Good drills are expensive - but like most tool steel, cheap stuff
is no bargain.
Robert Bastow
important!
Guessing again, but is that the "only" bolt keeping the rotors in reasonable
proximity to the rest of the helicoptor?
Jesus??
JESUS!!
This is ONE case where I thing I would want the drill (for the grease Hole)
ground on a Multi-million dollar CNC pointer and set/checked with an electron
microscope!! By an EXPERT with at least twenty years experience..Who was going
to fly in it with me!! ;^)
teenut
Ned Simmons
> I can probably guess that a "Jesus" bolt is so called because it is kinda
> important!
I've heard e-ring type retaining rings referred to as "Jesus clips", due
I think to the expletives that often accompany the removal of one and its
subsequent flight.
Robert Bastow
mull...@advinc.com wrote:
>
> In article <38000D38...@home.com>,
> Robert Bastow <tee...@home.com> wrote:
>
> > The drill, which usually didn't cut worth a toss, right out of the
> > packet, had
> > to be sharpened with a slip stone and an eye glass (loupe)...
>
> Hold on there. First you've never resorted to a microscope to sharpen
> a drill. Yet in the above narrative, there's the loupe.
Since when was a loupe a microscope??
> Hmm. Did you also walk 17 miles to school every day, in snow
> "up to here" wearing nothing but that flour sack?
Do I detect a hint of disbelief? Could that be because so many things are
outside YOUR obviously limited experience? Mockery as a tactic is a first
resort of an idiot and the last resort of a failure!
In actual fact it was eight miles and yes, we did walk it "Up to here in Snow"
Not every day..but often enough, when the buses couldn't get through.. a not
infrequent occurrence on the Yorkshire Moors. There were times when I would
have been damned thankful for an extra layer..sacking or otherwise! Kids didn't
have "Snow Suits" and Mommas with 4WD Broncos then!
> Any shop that would rather have it's workers re-sharpening
> drills like that (strictly a waste of time in a production environment)
> rather than making parts, is probably long since out of business.
Jim, I was talking of Forty years ago.!!
We were talking of a TRAINING CENTER!!
They were training SKILLED tradesmen..You know (Maybe) the kind of people that
produce the kind of equipment that your "Workers" need in todays "Production
Environment"
Incidently the company IS still in Business..and probably making similar parts
by better (production) methods tho' the quit training their own skilled people a
generation ago and probably Import all their production equipment as a
consequence.
It is called "Dumbing Down" and part of the reason is the short term kind of
"third quarter Bottom Line" thinking that you exhibit above. God knows what the
eventual cost will be!
We had been discussing whether it was POSSIBLE to sharpen a drill properly
without a Darex $300 whizz bang.
We have been discussing this on a News Group..where, by definition (
Rec.Crafts.Metalworking..not alt.ind.hightechproduction) most of the people are
just glad to get the drill to go around the right way and cut a hole.
The thrust of yourself, and other, even more supercilious and arrogant posters
has been that it is impossible to properly regrind a drill without a slew of
expensive equipment.
That is Bullshit as I have already stated. Just because YOU can't, doesn't mean
it is impossible..or even that damned difficult!
I think enough people with the skill to do it, have spoken up and perhaps
encouraged some of our newer comers to metalworking to go and try it for
themselves.
> Good drills are expensive - but like most tool steel, cheap stuff
> is no bargain.
Even brand new, top of the line, expensive drills, often don't cut worth a toss
straight out of the packet..I think that was confirmed by quite a few people
too!
teenut
gcouger
the only thing holding the rotor on.
Gordon
Gordon Couger gco...@couger.com
Stillwater, OK
Robert Bastow wrote in message <3800E3AE...@home.com>...
>I can probably guess that a "Jesus" bolt is so called because it is kinda
>important!
>
Charles Gallo
Jacobs) wrote:
>This is getting old. How about a new topic. When tightening a a drill
>chuck, do you only put the key in one hole and tighten or do you put it
>in all three?
>Best regards, Chuck key
John,
None of the above, I just grab the collar and tighten by hand.
Don't scream - I use Albrecht (Hi Pete) chucks <g>
Charlie
-- PGP Key on Request
For the Children RKBA!
KD6JDJ
>>This is getting old. How about a new topic. When tightening a a drill
>>chuck, do you only put the key in one hole and tighten or do you put it
>>in all three?
John
I was once told, and I have since then beleived, that one of the three holes
will provide more 'leverage' than the other two, for any given position. So,
when you have twisted to a max on any one hole, try another. If it twists, with
about the same key torque, you have found a hole that provides more leverage.
But, *how much time do you have* ?
It may be that you can learn to do a 'good enough' job of tightening for most
drills using only one chuck hole. It depends a lot on the chuck and the torque
you put on the drill bit.
Robert Bastow
> When tightening a a drill
>chuck, do you only put the key in one hole and tighten or do you put it
>in all three?
>
It depends..;^)
With a new, or unworn, quality, chuck, especially of the ballbearing variety, It
shouldn't be necessary to tighten on more than one hole for maximum grip
security.
Nor should it be neccessary to use all three pinion holes..or even be selective,
in order to get acceptable accuracy.
I have never seen this advocated by any of the chuck manufacturers, certainly I
have never made a practice of it.
However, not all our chucks are unworn as we well know!! Nor are all of our
drill shanks perfect. Huh?
Certainly for maximum security, when opening up a piloted hole, counterboring
etcetera., when drilling in sheet metal, when a countersink bit just will NOT
stop chattering...( 8^) yours too, huh?) I have been known to give 'em all a
tweak for luck!
You may also find (actually fer damn' sure you will find), that on a less than
pristine chuck, one of the pinion holes will give better accuracy than the
rest. So feel free to mark it and use it..I do!
Slowly I am replacing all my keyed chucks with keyless ones. Albrechts I
reserve for the "picky" stuff, but even the cheap "clones" are vastly superior
to any keyed chuck, except, perhaps, the larger, ball bearing Jacobs chucks.
In an industrial setting, where time is money, the keyless chucks have my vote
every time...if only because there is no need to find and pick up a chuck key!
teenut
mull...@advinc.com
None whatever. Life's just grand.
> The thrust of yourself, and other, even more supercilious and arrogant
posters
> has been that it is impossible to properly regrind a drill without a
slew of
> expensive equipment.
Here you are really off base, Robert. You mis-state my position
completely. Of course one can grind
a decent drill offhand. The task becomes more complex as the
size goes down, and at some point becomes impossible without
some extra magnification. 1/8 - sure, that's easy. But I would not
bother to do the ones in the 60 thru 80 index without some help.
Anyone who wants to learn this skill should start large - and I
mean 1/2 inch and above. This is a great way to make long drills
short.
> Even brand new, top of the line, expensive drills, often don't cut
> worth a toss
> straight out of the packet..
This is not my experience - those Guhring parabolic flute drills
I bought were perfect out of the packet. Every one. I had
expected some problems, but there were none. They did not require
any touching up, and because I bought extra, I have quite a few
left over. I think I drilled 4 or 5 No 35 holes in permalloy, each
one about 6 inches deep. I think I used two of those drills for that
task. Those things just cut and cut. No way could the offhand
sharpening job I did on HSS (those were cobalt steel) cheapo drills
do that.
Robert Bastow
mull...@advinc.com wrote:
>
,
> Robert Bastow
> > What IS your problem Jim??
>
> None whatever. Life's just grand.
Glad to hear it, last thing I want is, for what should be a professional
discussion to get out of hand and start to spoil anyone's day!
>
> > The thrust of yourself, and other, even more supercilious and arrogant
> posters
> > has been that it is impossible to properly regrind a drill without a
> slew of
> > expensive equipment.
>
> Here you are really off base, Robert. You mis-state my position
> completely. Of course one can grind
> a decent drill offhand.
Then I apologise Jim!!
SOMBODY said that and, in the convolutions of this thread I had come to believe
it was you!
(trust me..if it gets any more convoluted I will be writing nasty missives to
myself..and so will you!)
The task becomes more complex as the
> size goes down, and at some point becomes impossible without
> some extra magnification. 1/8 - sure, that's easy. But I would not
> bother to do the ones in the 60 thru 80 index without some help.
No disagreement..unless you HAVE to! My point is that a lot of people on this
list have only the option of tackling it with no help, no aids, no skill and no
practice...or NOT DOING IT! What a tragic waste!
I can't be there to help them..but at least I can give them the confidence to
TRY..knowing that it CAN be done, It has been done, and by golly, if that old
fart teenut can do it SO CAN I!!
(Forgive me Jim..I am not SHOUTing..just putting emphasis on the key points!)
>
> Anyone who wants to learn this skill should start large - and I
> mean 1/2 inch and above. This is a great way to make long drills
> short.
I believe I learned on a 3/4" taper shank drill..it is a lot easier to see all
the angles and begin to understand how they work and interact.
By the way..we had a handy little dohickey to help get the drill lips level. I
have never heard it described before..
For the morse taper shank drills from 1/4" up to about 1" diameter, we had a
piece of 2" by 1/8" hot rolled steel strap..about 14" long. One end was bent at
right angles, about 2" from the end to form an L shape with one 12" upright and
a 2" horizontal. In the geometric center of this short leg was afixed a "dead"
center..not a lathe tailstock center!!...more like a 1/2" bolt, 1/2" long,
turned or ground to a 60 deg point (Approx...no great precision required) and
screwed in from the under side. Thats IT..toolmaking over!
In use the inner face of the upright was coated with whitewash (Never SAW
marking blue 'til I got in the toolroom!) The drill was ground, freehand, on
the FACE of the wheel (not the flat side)...care being taken to keep the POINT
angle as equal as possible on both sides..I'll tell you how to do THAT in a
moment..
Lets do that now in fact..
Jim, You are dead right about not being able to grind a drill without mechanical
help! Well here's how you create your own "6 Million Dollar Bionic Darex" ;^)
Let's assume we are going to sharpen a 3/8" diameter, 2MT shank drill..it is
about 8" long (these figures are arbitrary..I just want every one to have the
same mental picture of what I am describing. We approach the wheel, which has
been dressed on its face, dead straight across with no grooves..(Ve SHOOT anyone
ve catch putting grooves in ze drill wheel!!..No Pity..No Prisoners..Ya!
Verdampt!)
(Sorry)...
The drill shank is held firmly in the RIGHT hand...ALL the movement and control
is imparted by the RIGHT hand. For the purposes of drill grinding, the left hand
could be...with benefit..a LUMP OF CLAY!!
It is from this "lump of clay" that we fashion the Bionic Darex".
Place your left hand thumb and finger tips LIGHTLY together..Relax the other
three fingers aand let them naturally curl against the palm of your hand. Let
the drill flute drop into the vee between thumb and fore finger and let the tip
of the finger "Find" the curve of the flute where it fits comfortably. The tip
of the thumb rests on the sharp junction ot the land and the flute, about an
inch back from the drill tip.
Now...SQUEEZE HARD!!! YOUCH!...I said it would be easier if it were clay! 8^)
Lift the drill from your fingers...see the GROOVE?...Drop the drill back in..it
locates within a thou or two! Magic?..Bionic at least! Squeeze again to set the
groove. You have created a customised drill guide that fits better that that on
any machine ever built! You can relax your grip now..feel how smoothly the
drill will ride back and forth, guided by the groove you have created for it.
Place the knuckles of your left hand, LIGHTLY on the ginding wheel tool rest,
and swing the drill shank, from left to right (using ONLY your right hand) and
push the drill lengthways though that groove in your fingers back or forth using
the groove to make the drill twist or "rifle" in your fingers. Do NOT move your
left hand in any way..it is made of clay remember!
UNTIL....
A) The drill axis is "eyeballed" to be at half the required point angle to the
wheel face...You can scribe or chalk reference lines on your grinder benchtop to
help you line this up..at least untill it become almost second nature.
B) The drill axis is dropped JUUUst below horizontal. This will ensure that
your soon to be ground drill lip will start with a "smidgin" of cutting
clearance.
(Ideally, and certainly for a beginner, the grinder rest should be set dead
radially to the wheel center and about half the drill diameter below the true
center of the wheel)
C) The two cutting edges of the drill..the straight, sharp bits, formed by the
junction of the flute and the back face (the only bit you grind), should be
horizontally disposed..with the edge uppermost on the side closest to your left
hand..the othe sharp bit of course, pointing downwards (Jeeze this would be a
lot easier with a sketch pad)
This I will call the SET or START position!
NOW, move your left hand for the first, last, and ONLY time during th is whole
exercise. GENTLY ease the cutting edge towards the spinning wheel, carefully
maintaining all the angles and orientations of the SET position..until the
cutting edge is JUST shy of touching the wheel. If you listen carefully you
will hear the tone of the entrained air, whistling through the narrowing gap.
You will hear a subtle but distinct change of tone JUST, I mean Just...a couple
tenths of a thou BEFORE the edge touches the wheel. STOP!!! FREEZE!! DO NOT
MOVE!!
Now, press the knuckles of your lump of clay..sorry, your left hand FIRMLY down
onto, into and around the grinding rest..establish a "Groove" on the back of
your hand as well as between your fingers.
We are now ready to grind, Your left hand locked to the drill and grinding rest
is otherwise quite relaxed..letting the drill slide, twist and tilt wherever
your right hand and the groove in your fingers tell it to go.
The actual grinding is a bit of an anticlimax.
You have previously studied a new drill point, you have read about clearance,
and cutting angles, and rakes and......
With the RIGHT hand in control, gently, kinda, lean forward... bending or
squeezing your arms hands and body..rather than actually moving them..untill you
take up that last couple of tenths and the wheel begins to cut. Let it
cut..don't force it, and dont' rush it..it really won't hurt anything if you
take a full minute Per pass per face. YOU and your "Bionic Darex" are totally
in control of that drill and the wheel..Forget the times when, close to panic,
you swung the drill wildly past the wheel, hoping to get "the dirty deed" over
with as quickly as possible.
Take your time, enjoy the moment, THINK about the shape you are trying to
generate. Just the one face is left to "Interpretation"...every other
aspect,angle, facet, what have you...Has ALREADY BEEN TAKEN CARE OF!! and is
locked in place under your control!
The right hand should perfome a "Lower Quadrant sweep" for want of a better
term..An observer behind you would see your hand move from about 17 minutes past
the hour on a clock face, to roughly 25 minutes past. But it isn't a smooth arc
of a circle, more a sector of an elipse..You see, as your hand starts to drop
slowly, you are also rotating the drill in "the groove"..the first third of the
turn needs to maintain that very slight clearance angle on the cutting edge, and
not increase it too rapidly.
You need the clearance to cut..But too much at that point will WEAKEN the edge,
and cause the drill to snatch and chip...So the first part of the rotation is
ALMOST but not quite, just as though you were grinding a straight cone point on
the end of your drill. Only as you approach the second third, does your right
hand start to noticably drop..kinda "Catching Up" on the rotary
motion...increasing the clearance as it does.
In the last third of the rotaion the right hand drops quite rapidly..Thogh not
enough to catch the OTHER drill lip on the wheel..that lip is coming around
quite rapidly by now.
Above all, take your time, if it helps, move the drill one degree at a time, and
think ahead what shape or angle the next degree of cutting face
needs...Remember, you have control, and IT ain't going nowhere 'til you decide.
After a pass on one face, flip the drill in your "Bionic Darex" DO NOT MOVE
THAT LEFT HAND!!, return to SET position and repeat, the pass on the other face.
Having done a couple of passes on each face..it is now time to check the results
on our homemade "Optical Comparator"
(Sorry Jim I couldn't resist!!) ;^)
Rest the center hole in back end of the drill shank, on the center point of the
"Comparator" and use, first one and then the other drill lip to scribe a light
line on your whitewashed (OK Blue or red dyed) surface.
You will readily see if the lines coincide..if the lips are even..or not, as the
case may be.
Lets assume they are..Now look directly DOWN on the end of the drill to check
the clearances. HUH? How can you check radial clearance by looking it staight
in the face? Surely you need to look at it sideways?
Well no you don't...for once all thos interacting and confusing angle and faces
and clearances are going to work together in YOUR favor and make what could be a
tricky bit of metrology..quite simple. While we are looking at the end of the
drill, we will also check that the POINT ANGLE is correct too!!!
(Ok guys, leave quietly..teenut has finally lost it!!)
No really, trust me. IF you look straight down on the point of a well
sharpened, standard drill, you will see
the two cutting edges, joined by the CHISEL edge which crosses over the web of
the drill The angle fromed by the chisel edge to each cutting edge, should be
ABOUT 50 deg...anywhere between 40 and sixty is ok for a first attempt. (I can
hear the purists and theorists screaming and lighting up their flame throwers)
But believe me, get it in that ball park and your drill will CUT. If the angle
is too steep..you don't have enough clearance...negative clearance will give you
an angle event greater than 90 deg. Too MUCH clerance and the angle will appear
too shallow!
While looking at the end, check the point angle, How? Look down the axis of
the drill at the cutting edges. Are they straight? If so, your point is pretty
close to the right angle (As designed for that drill, by its manufacturer when
he set the helix angle and the cross section of the flute) If the edges appear
CONCAVE the point is too flat and if they appear CONVEX, the point is too
"Pointy"
If your drill passes all these tests, which take but a second or two to perform,
THEN IT WILL CUT..pretty close to size, without chattering, chipping,
overheating, wandering or seizing. I guarantee it!
Hey, thats a pretty good start for the first drill you ever ground! All it
takes now is a bit of practice for it to become second nature and almost as easy
with a little 'un or a big 'un!
Hey guys!
My apologies for "goin'on" but If it helps just one person to pluck up the
couragre and go hand sharpen his (or Her) first drill, by hand...
Then I hope you will bear with me.
It is late, I am tired and I am not even going to proof or spell check this,
'night all
teenut
Robert Bastow
Sorry Jens
You copied me on email with this and I answered directly!
So I'll let someone else respond..you can see if I lied!!
Perhaps we can get Pete (Mr Klue..er..Keyless) Albrecht 'imself to respond!!
teenut
Jens wrote:
>
> Robert Bastow <tee...@home.com> wrote:
>
> >Slowly I am replacing all my keyed chucks with keyless ones. Albrechts I
> >reserve for the "picky" stuff, but even the cheap "clones" are vastly superior
> >to any keyed chuck, except, perhaps, the larger, ball bearing Jacobs chucks.
>
> Why is a keyless one better than a keyed chuck ???? I would have
> thought that in a production environment you would want a keyed chuck
> since you can really tighten them down. (no, I have never used a
> keyless one ....)
>
> Jens
Mike Graham
>Why is a keyless one better than a keyed chuck ???? I would have
>thought that in a production environment you would want a keyed chuck
>since you can really tighten them down. (no, I have never used a
>keyless one ....)
There are two kinds of keyless chucks. The first kind is the kind found
on reversible hand drills wherein the 'fingers' don't rotate as you tighten
and loosen the chuck. These are no great roaring hell, but they work. The
other kind is the Albrecht/Rohm style, and on it the fingers *do* rotate
with the sleeve when you tighten and loosen. This means that the force on
the drill bit causes it to tighten. The more force exerted on the bit, the
harder the chuck hangs on. It's a beautiful thing. The drawback (and it
*can* be a serious drawback) is that this style of keyless chuck *cannot*
work with a reversed drill. If the drill runs in reverse it will loosen the
chuck.
Jack Erbes
<snip>
> Slowly I am replacing all my keyed chucks with keyless ones. Albrechts I
> reserve for the "picky" stuff, but even the cheap "clones" are vastly superior
> to any keyed chuck, except, perhaps, the larger, ball bearing Jacobs chucks.
>
> In an industrial setting, where time is money, the keyless chucks have my vote
> every time...if only because there is no need to find and pick up a chuck key!
But there is more to life than time. I have found that the keyless
chucks are not as useful as the keyed types if you need to use the chuck
in both directions. When running in reverse the Albrecht types will
release their grip occasionally, especially if there is a little
vibration present.
But I still like the convenience of the keyless on the lathe. When
running in reverse you can hold some pressure on it with your hand to
keep it closed.
All thing considered though, any chuck will work better than a Pete.
--
Jack in Sonoma, CA, USA (ja...@vom.com)
Larry Meile
Larry
Robert Bastow wrote:
>
Robert Bastow
Thanks Mike..It makes more sense now!
teenut
Exit: stage left, muttering to self......;^)
mull...@advinc.com
Robert Bastow <tee...@home.com> wrote:
>
> It is late, I am tired and I am not even going to proof or spell check
this,
>
> 'night all
>
> teenut
>
Quite a tutorial. Thank you for taking the time to put it here.
It gives a good start, but really one has to ruin a boxfull of
drills before it can be really understood.
Fortunately most of us have boxfulls of clapped out drills to
start on.
I might add the following: When checking the included angle of
the cutting edges it is helpful to light it properly. I like
to have the drill itself in darkness, with a bright white or light
colored background behind it, giving that optical comparo effect
you mention. I find that if I can discern the flutes and so on
it makes it tougher to look at *only* the angles and the relative
lengths of the cutting edges. Sort of an optical illusion.
I also have gotten into the habit of grinding two reliefs on the
back of the edge. The first one provides the actual cutting
relief, and the second one prevents the back edge from scuffing.
The second one is a lot easier than the first because the angle
is not a critical.
This is not as pretty as a real 'twist ground' back relief, but
works quite well for most applications.
Also important to *stone* the cutting edge before using. I like
to stone along the edge, not across it.
Now, Robert, if you could do a treatise on thinning the web, that
would be enjoyable to read. I have seen a very nice technique
that not only thins the web, but creates a nearly-centercuttin
second set of edges at the same time - but it requires a wheel
with a nearly right angle to do so.
Also, have you a recipie for those nice sheet metal drills that
have the reverse angle cutting lips and a center pip - so they
don't grab - they cut out small slugs? I've made a few of those,
but they are a lot more hit-n-miss!
Ted Edwards
> and the tolerances aren't hideously tight. Usually the only bench grinder
> around is the one for the TIG tungstens, and if anyone catches you grinding
> a drill bit on it, you are a dead man.
Why? I don't grind Al, brass, ... on my only bench grinder. It's used
for steel and tungstens and I haven't had any problems that I can
attribute to contaminated tungstens. BTW, I was welding Al yesterday
and had to re-do my tungsten several times (I have a depth preseption
problem).
Ted
Gary Coffman
> The drawback (and it
>*can* be a serious drawback) is that this style of keyless chuck *cannot*
>work with a reversed drill. If the drill runs in reverse it will loosen the
>chuck.
Good thing too, sometimes *nothing* else will. (Well, maybe a pipe wrench.)
Gary
Gary Coffman KE4ZV | You make it |mail to ke...@bellsouth.net
534 Shannon Way | We break it |
Lawrenceville, GA | Guaranteed |
John Kasunich
> <snip>
>
> Well here's how you create your own "6 Million Dollar
> Bionic Darex" ;^)
>
> Let's assume we are going to sharpen a 3/8" diameter,
> 2MT shank drill..it is about 8" long
>
> <snip detailed description of drill sharpening>
>
> Hey guys!
>
> My apologies for "goin'on" but If it helps just one
> person to pluck up the courage and go hand sharpen
> his (or Her) first drill, by hand...
>
> Then I hope you will bear with me.
>
> 'night all
>
> teenut
>
You have succeeded. I've printed out your post and
will "pluck up the courage" tonight. Thanks...
Even with your detailed description, and a drill in my
hand, I'm having trouble visualizing some of this. I'd
love the ability to look over your shoulder as you
sharpen a drill or three. This would be a great item
for the Dropbox - take some pictures and post them with
your text description. I'll volunteer for the picture
scanning, etc. if you can find someone to shoot the
photos...
Thanks again
John Kasunich
james askew
enough???????
Jim
Robert Bastow wrote:
>
> > When tightening a a drill
> >chuck, do you only put the key in one hole and tighten or do you put it
> >in all three?
> >
> It depends..;^)
>
> With a new, or unworn, quality, chuck, especially of the ballbearing variety, It
> shouldn't be necessary to tighten on more than one hole for maximum grip
> security.
>
> Nor should it be neccessary to use all three pinion holes..or even be selective,
> in order to get acceptable accuracy.
>
> I have never seen this advocated by any of the chuck manufacturers, certainly I
> have never made a practice of it.
>
> However, not all our chucks are unworn as we well know!! Nor are all of our
> drill shanks perfect. Huh?
>
> Certainly for maximum security, when opening up a piloted hole, counterboring
> etcetera., when drilling in sheet metal, when a countersink bit just will NOT
> stop chattering...( 8^) yours too, huh?) I have been known to give 'em all a
> tweak for luck!
>
> You may also find (actually fer damn' sure you will find), that on a less than
> pristine chuck, one of the pinion holes will give better accuracy than the
> rest. So feel free to mark it and use it..I do!
>
> Slowly I am replacing all my keyed chucks with keyless ones. Albrechts I
> reserve for the "picky" stuff, but even the cheap "clones" are vastly superior
> to any keyed chuck, except, perhaps, the larger, ball bearing Jacobs chucks.
>
> In an industrial setting, where time is money, the keyless chucks have my vote
> every time...if only because there is no need to find and pick up a chuck key!
>
> teenut
KD6JDJ
>The real question is ---- Why does it have three holes if one is
>enough???????
>
I suggest that the angle that the key's teeth meet the teeth on the chuck is
different for each hole. One hole will provide more leverage than the other
two.
I'm aware that you already knew that, but I have nothing else to respond to
this morning.
Jerry
Glenn Neff
writes:
>I could teach anyone on this list how to grind a drill in less time than it
>would take for them to drive down to the hardware store to buy the bolts to
>fasten a darex onto the bench.
If you just LOOK at a good drill and grab a handfull of munged bits and start
grinding you will know how to sharpen a drill before you toss three bits. I
like to twist the bit by hand into wood to see if both edges cut the same ...
or cut at all :) For me, sharpening a drill bit is easier than sharpening a
lathe bit ... though the same method of learning applies and I am getting much
better with grinding my lathe bits. A wheel with a nice square edge helps for
splitting the points and it is a good idea to keep your wheel dressed properly
... but that applies to almost any grinding operation, no?
Glenn Neff
Medford OR
Mike Graham
>Why? I don't grind Al, brass, ... on my only bench grinder. It's used
>for steel and tungstens and I haven't had any problems that I can
>attribute to contaminated tungstens. BTW, I was welding Al yesterday
>and had to re-do my tungsten several times (I have a depth preseption
>problem).
People who can't weld like to blame the grinder. 8-) Seriously, there
*is* an infinitessimally small possibility of contaminating the tungsten via
the grinder. Never had a problem, myself. Kind of the same argument
involving not using this particular grinding wheel on stainless after you
used it on steel. I don't care unless the boss-man cares, in which case it
is in my best interests to at least *appear* to care. 8-)
Mike Graham
>Thanks Mike..It makes more sense now!
Hey, you heard it here first. Well, actually *I* heard it here first a
few months ago. I'm just regurgitating it. 8-) Well, I guess everything
on here is regurgitated, more or less...
Mike Graham
>The real question is ---- Why does it have three holes if one is
>enough???????
Because you don't know where it's going to stop spinning. Why does the
spider handle on the drill press have three 'legs' if one is, in theory,
enough?
Robert Bastow
mull...@advinc.com wrote:
> Quite a tutorial. Thank you for taking the time to put it here.
> It gives a good start, but really one has to ruin a boxfull of
> drills before it can be really understood.
I don't think that is the case Jim, Most 15 year old apprentices got it right
after a couple of tries..It isn't rocket science!
>
> Fortunately most of us have boxfulls of clapped out drills to
> start on.
Should have started earlier, Huh? ;^)
>
> I might add the following: When checking the included angle of
> the cutting edges it is helpful to light it properly. I like
> to have the drill itself in darkness, with a bright white or light
> colored background behind it, giving that optical comparo effect
> you mention. I find that if I can discern the flutes and so on
> it makes it tougher to look at *only* the angles and the relative
> lengths of the cutting edges. Sort of an optical illusion.
A bit of practice and you can do it (almost 8^) in the dark. Our apprentice
training shops were pretty dimly lit at best. In any case, a lot relies on the
"feel" especially with smaller drills (an older eyes I might add)
The whole point of the "Bionic Darex" is that, once "locked in" it is not a
lighting and vision dependent operation.
>
> I also have gotten into the habit of grinding two reliefs on the
> back of the edge. The first one provides the actual cutting
> relief, and the second one prevents the back edge from scuffing.
> The second one is a lot easier than the first because the angle
> is not a critical.
>
> This is not as pretty as a real 'twist ground' back relief, but
> works quite well for most applications.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder..some people and drill grinding machine
companies swear by the "Two Facet" method. Others swear at it! Certainly the
edge isn't as strong and is more prone to dig in, catter and break down as a
consequence. My Christen is designed exclusively for two facet grinding..which
is maybe one reason why I may never use it for drills. It is designed for drills
only from .0020" to .025" diameter..but I still prefer to hand grind or stone!
Dammit it's faster!!
It is interesting to note, that the people who are probably the "Worlds Experts"
on drill pointing viz. The gundrill makers, use a properly relief ground cutting
edge geometry.
>
> Also important to *stone* the cutting edge before using. I like
> to stone along the edge, not across it.
Why, no other cutting edge is stoned along the edge! Enough research and
ecperience has shown that striations running parallel to an edge, weaken it more
than striations at right angles to it. Ask any woodworker, or knife maker.
Stoning along the edge of a metal cutting tool makes it more prone to edge pick
up/welding and all the horrors that attend it..ask any pro. turner worth his
salt!
If the technique is right and the wheel is right you shouldn't need to stone the
edge. Indeed, unless your stoning technique is dead on..chances are you will
blunt the drill!!
>
> Now, Robert, if you could do a treatise on thinning the web, that
> would be enjoyable to read.
Hmm! Here goes..
Bung the inside of the flute against the radius corner of the wheel, flip it
over and repeat for the other side. Inspect and correct or go drill the hole!
Yeh, I'm kidding..a bit! ;^) But on drills under 3/8" (For HSM purposes) web
thinning is more trouble than it is worth. Above about 9/16"..most HSMers are
better advised to pilot drill first..I do.
In between..the above technique has served countless thousands of machinists for
generations.
The point to watch is that the thinning is even..to eyeball standards and that
it not weaken the web too much..on jobber length drills there really is no need
to thin the web until you get to the last inch or so of flute. If you genuinely
manage to use, and grind a drill that far..you will have enough skill and
experience to be writing this piece!
If on the other hand you need a shorter drill..use a stub or screw machine
length..They start out with thinner webs.
I have seen a very nice technique
> that not only thins the web, but creates a nearly-centercuttin
> second set of edges at the same time - but it requires a wheel
> with a nearly right angle to do so.
Split point drills..Hmm!
My Christen is specifically designed to do that, it needs the diamond wheel to
hold the square edge that you mention. Plus microscopic adjustments to do it
right.
Certainly not a technique for the HSM without spending a lot of good tool
money. $300 for Darex?..I have heard people swear BY them and AT them. A new
Christen will run in the $12.15000 range and we KNOW that will do it, first
time, every time! but had this one not "Fell off a truck in front of me and not
got broke" I wouldn't have sprung the thirty dollars of good tool money it cost
me.
I only bought it because I thought it had the makings of a little T&C
grinder..sort of a cross between a Deckel and a Quorn. If it can't "split
point" drills when I am done the conversion..then I am not going to loose a
minute"s sleep over it. So there! ;^)
Split point drills have a lot of claims made for them..The major one I hear, is
that they are self centering and don't need a center drilling operation first
and thus save an operation, and a tool change on a CNC machine.
Well (can't you hear 'ole teenut sucking his teeth over the validity or worth of
THAT one??"
If you have a CNC machine (Hands Up For A Head Count) and want a LOT of holes
(HUFAHC) and don't mind some of those holes being "just a few teeny thous or
tenths" off position (HUFAHC) and if you don't mind some of those holes being
the same "teeny bit" off size (HUFAHC) and if having come this far you are a
GENUINE HSMer (HUFAHC)..then I guess (who's left?) you have need for a Darex or
a Christen to do your split points!
For the rest, let's keep the good ol' twist drill in perspective. It is a means
of making a hole. Period!
If that hole is to put a (non-fitting) bolt through, lighten something, let
water out, or prepare the way for further operations, it has served its purpose
admirably. IMHO anything else is expecting way too much of it.
Any other "Holey" condition can better, faster, and certainly, more accurately,
be achieved by specialist, follow up operations with tools and techniques better
suited to the job. And, (he said grammatically correctly) And, if any of the
CNC, split point users who had their hands up earlier, expect that a drill ANY
DRILL, can replace, to name but a few, a boring head, reamer, roller burnisher,
or jig grinder Them I am afraid they are missing the whole point of this.
> Also, have you a recipie for those nice sheet metal drills that
> have the reverse angle cutting lips and a center pip - so they
> don't grab - they cut out small slugs? I've made a few of those,
> but they are a lot more hit-n-miss!
No recipe fot them Jim..But you've got to love 'em! I like the B&D bullet
points..I was fortunate enough to pick up a lifetime"s supply on ebay, cheap
cheap cheap I will meter those out for the job they do best..sheet metal, where
I can't get a unibit at it! I don't do any sheet metal work but once a blue
moon.
I can grind a workeable facimily by hand, on the corner of the wheel,,basically
a flat botton drill with a tit left on seems to work quite well. For wood work
I like brad points (if it is too small for a forstner) Those are ground the
same way..a flat bottom drill with a tit in the middle and a cutting skirt st
the rim.
In all the above, and earlier work, I have tried to stress, over and over again,
that this is not just my opinions..but my lifetime's experience as both a
"professional" metalworker, as a HSMer and as a long time teacher of "Machine
shop"..in the class room, on the floor AND on the Advisory Boards of Vocational
trainig Centers and Regional Apprentice Training Organisations
I have repeated, over and over again, that, in view of the forum, this is
TOTALLY slanted towards the HSMer, and my objective always has been, to simplify
(Not over simplify) and to debunk and demystify enough so that the newcomers
among us are encouraged to go "do it" without being afraid of the initial
failure that always preceeds success. As I said earlier..If just one
struggling, unsure, beginning HSMer gets to hand sharpen a drill and work his
way through a bit of metal to daylight on the other side..then, to me this will
all have been worth it.
I am WELL AWARE that I have, deliberately, made statements that my "Fellow Pros"
will cringe at, and would be all over me like white on rice..IN A DIFFERENT
FORUM. Hey, I would lead the wolf pack!!
But the real pros, share a lot of my concerns about the loss of skills and
training, and understand how difficult it is to put across, highly visual and
dexterous techniques using only the written word. I thank THEM for their
"silent" support.
They know too how difficult that is, without them becoming part of the
problem..The howling mob of "Pseudo Experts" who haven't heard a word I have
said, and never will.
To them I say..Step right up! .but remember it is a lot easier to make something
sound difficult, than it is to simplify it!
Talk to you later Jim,
teenut
Chuck Harris
james askew wrote:
>
> The real question is ---- Why does it have three holes if one is
> enough???????
So one is always handy?
-----
Chuck Harris - WA3UQV
cfha...@erols.com
Robert Bastow
Gary Coffman wrote:
(Well, maybe a pipe wrench.)
Go wash your mouth out Gary ;^)
Robert Bastow
world..Wish I lived there!
But I have found MY immunity blanket!! ;^)
When I bought my Lincoln S W 175..the salesman, of course, loaded me down with
enough supplies, spares, collets...to rebuild the Titanic..I don't think I'll
need to buy another electrode as long as I live.
Among the "Pills and potions, soaps and lotions" he wafted in front of my glazed
eyes was a small, wide topped jar. I must have nodded, because it was at the
bottom of the HUGE cardboard box of "STUFF" I unloaded at home that evening.
"Wassis" ?
"Anchor Brand" I read, "Chemical Sharpener" :^0 "Chemically sharpens tungsten
electrodes without grinding, splintering, flat spots or ridges"
Yeh, Right!! They really did read me for the total amateur!! Hide it, Hide the
shame!!
A week later, knee deep in a Waffle House Menu of Scattered, splattered,
shattered, tattered, ridged, splintered and contaminated electrodes, I swallowed
what little pride I hade left and reached for the bottle!!
After sobering up..
Whoops, wrong meeting!! That's Tuesdays..What's today? :^o
Instructions are simple..Hold electrode on Ground Clamp until cherry red.
Quickly immerse tep about 1/4" deep into the Chemical Sharpener (THEY spell it
in caps..but Brian says I mustn't ;^) Repeatedly dip until a satisfactory point
results, or reaction ceases.
Reaction Ceases!! Theirs? Mine??
Well a couple of "Flashburns" later...I peer from under the tea bags at..
The most beautiful, chemically clean, slender, polished, needle like POINT
(sorry..), point, you ever saw in all your born days.
Now you would read, (if this were a "true story" on National TV) how my tig
welding woes were over..how I went on to National Fame and Wealth within days of
my discovery..Sponsorships...Endorsements....Oprah..
Not so..this is RCM!! Thud! My tig welding education was just beginning, truth
be known I probably will only graduate grade 12 by repeating grade 6 twice!
But among my many tribulations..Im-Perfect Points does not number! Every time I
drop the pedal on that sucker..I know, whatever trials may (will) come to
pass..it won't be caused by a "lumpy, splintered....yada yada..contaminated
point!
Ain't science wonderful ?
Now I wait for someone to respond and say it ain't so and how you can't put a
proper point on a 0.040" electrode without a Darex and a Microscope!!
teenut
Ted Edwards wrote:
>
> Mike Graham wrote:
>
> > and the tolerances aren't hideously tight. Usually the only bench grinder
> > around is the one for the TIG tungstens, and if anyone catches you grinding
> > a drill bit on it, you are a dead man.
>
> Why? I don't grind Al, brass, ... on my only bench grinder. It's used
> for steel and tungstens and I haven't had any problems that I can
> attribute to contaminated tungstens. BTW, I was welding Al yesterday
> and had to re-do my tungsten several times (I have a depth preseption
> problem).
>
> Ted
John Stevenson
Informative post snipped to save room.
>
>My Christen is specifically designed to do that, it needs the diamond wheel to
>hold the square edge that you mention. Plus microscopic adjustments to do it
>right.
>
>Certainly not a technique for the HSM without spending a lot of good tool
>money. $300 for Darex?..I have heard people swear BY them and AT them. A new
>Christen will run in the $12.15000 range and we KNOW that will do it, first
>time, every time! but had this one not "Fell off a truck in front of me and not
>got broke" I wouldn't have sprung the thirty dollars of good tool money it cost
>me.
>
>I only bought it because I thought it had the makings of a little T&C
>grinder..sort of a cross between a Deckel and a Quorn. If it can't "split
>point" drills when I am done the conversion..then I am not going to loose a
>minute"s sleep over it. So there! ;^)
Note to this at the bottom.
>
The last place I worked at before going self employed again was a company that
made piano actions. Lots of small holes in good quality wood. Well before I
worked there the fitters had to make their own drills from Piano wire as this
industry uses non standard sized drills. To this day all the pivot holes are
bored 0.0505" and there isn't a drill that size. Later they bought in drill
blanks ground to size and they then ground up spade drills to do the job.
A lot of the other holes were all standard sizes up to 3/16".
These were all ground like Robert has described above with a tit in the middle
and a cutting skirt at the edge. We call them wing and spur. Up until 1989 these
were still ground by hand from 0.0325" to 0.223" when they bought a Christian
drill grinder [ they still have this]
The point I am making is to confirm what Robert has said, it can be done by hand
easily.
As regards accuracy with a little care and experience that can also be achieved.
Believe it or not but the tolerance that was allowed on these wooden piano parts
was half a thou on all bored holes, tested with go - no go pins. No rough holes
and no spelching on the back.
These were all done freehand and the only aid to grinding was a strobe light
that you could 'dial' in to the wheel speed to give the impression it was
stationary and you could see the edge with better detail. [ I 'won' that when I
left <g> ]
The guy I took over from who was retiring, Cyril, spent about 3 days showing me
the way to grind them correctly. I nearly went mad before I got the hang of it
but it's stayed with me. Incidently Cyril now works for me part time, he's 73
and still has it all together, he'll be out his time in a couple of years <g>
--
Regards,
John Stevenson at
L Stevenson [Engineers]
Nottingham, England.
Robert Bastow
So you don't have to twist around a high geared spindle!
So it is balanced.
So it looks pretty.
'cos it's cheaper than 4 holes.
"cos they've always made them that way.
8^)
teenut
Robert Bastow
John Stevenson wrote:
Incidently Cyril now works for me part time, he's 73
> and still has it all together, he'll be out his time in a couple of years <g>
So then he will be a "Good Beginner" ;^)
Which just reminded me that first couple of years out of time an Apprentice was
called an "Iprover"
The tradition, in my part of the world was, that, on the day you finished your
time, usually six or seven years, you were given your Certificate and a 'Pink
Slip".
Seriously, you were fired and told to go elswhere!
Admittedly you maybe just walked across town to another shop that hired you, on
the spot, to replace the "Lad" thay just fired..and who was, likely, just
settling in the warm spot you had just vacated.
Company Personnel people made sure you knew who was hireing before you left.
The "method" behind the "Madness" was two fold.
Firstly it ensured that their permanent skilled workforce brought skills other
that those just taught there.
It taught a wider skill base to the 'Improver"
When you returned..and many did, two, three five years later, to guaranteed
employment (if they were hireing)..it ensured that they could, if you were
qualified, put you back in the shops where you served as a "lad", as a lead
hand, chargehand, eventually Forman or Chief Engineer. They could put you back,
with authority, over the very skilled men that had taught you your trade. And
they would ACCEPT you (on a strictly merit basis)
You see, You left a "Lad"..and went back a "Man"!
Regrettably, that all ended just a couple of years before I finished my
time...as a regular, established practice. I eventually became Sales Director,
of my "Parent Company"..But I can guarantee it would never have happened if I
hadn't left the year after I finished my time and "Journeyed" until they called
me, seven years later with an offer that eventually brought me to North America.
This remarkeable system dating back centuries..was a parallel to the Guild
System and Journeymen...forced to leave town or even the country, forbidden to
work for any one master for more than a year. Jouneying..to learn the REAL trade
in which the Apprenticeship had prepared them to be "A Good Beginner" Fobidden
to return to their home Guild Town Often for many many years..on pain of Death!
..until they could return with documented proof of their "Journeyman" experience
He then had to produce the required Guild Test Piece whereapon he would be
inducted into the Guild, with its Inner Secrets, Rights, Obligations
CONSIDERABLE privileges and guaranteed Protection.
Some of the most beautiful examples of the craftsmans art ever to emerge...in
many many different fields, were created by returning Journeymen as their Guild
test pieces.
teenut
Mike Graham
>Maybe the rules of tungsten contamination don't apply in some parts of the
>world..Wish I lived there!
It's like using a milling machine with sloppy ways - you learn to make
allowances and it doesn't bother you unless it's pretty bad.
>"Anchor Brand" I read, "Chemical Sharpener" :^0 "Chemically sharpens tungsten
>electrodes without grinding, splintering, flat spots or ridges"
I'm surprised you'd have trouble sharpening a tungsten properly. (imagine
the restraint required to not make much of it!) 8-)
>The most beautiful, chemically clean, slender, polished, needle like POINT
>(sorry..), point, you ever saw in all your born days.
Interesting. I wonder how it works?
>Now I wait for someone to respond and say it ain't so and how you can't put a
>proper point on a 0.040" electrode without a Darex and a Microscope!!
I can put a proper point on one with welding gauntlets on and the hood
down (it *is* automatic, though).
John Jacobs
dying off. The new generation, even as early as five years ago, maybe
can program a cnc, but come crunch time the buckle under presssure. I
see alot of guys who can't grind a hss tool, much less sharpen a drill
bit. "Who needs hss when we have carbide?" If I thought like that when I
was in trade school there would have been many jobs I would have never
been able to do. I would have had to leave them to a "REAL" machinist.
Chuck Key
(JJ)
John Jacobs
I apologize as well. We are all adults , correct?
Chuck Key
(JJ)
Mark Winlund
Mark
Ned Simmons wrote in message ...
>In article <3800E3AE...@home.com>, tee...@home.com says...
>> I can probably guess that a "Jesus" bolt is so called because it is kinda
>> important!
>
>I've heard e-ring type retaining rings referred to as "Jesus clips", due
>I think to the expletives that often accompany the removal of one and its
>subsequent flight.
kenneth knaell
ken knaell
Robert Bastow wrote in message <38019998...@home.com>...
>
....<big cut>....
mull...@advinc.com
Robert Bastow <tee...@home.com> wrote:
> > Fortunately most of us have boxfulls of clapped out drills to
> > start on.
>
> Should have started earlier, Huh? ;^)
You miss the point (ha) - trashed drills are readily available
because they *are* trashed. What better way to start experimenting
with this than by attacking something you cannot ruin, because it
already is? This is the best way to teach drill grinding, as
others have stated: Provide the tools and the drills (suitably
dulled to start) and let the folks have at it. No making fun
of any attempts, tho!
> ...If just one
> struggling, unsure, beginning HSMer gets to hand sharpen a drill and
> work his
> way through a bit of metal to daylight on the other side..then, to me
> this will
> all have been worth it.
Your sentiments are of course admirable. But consider your
audience: most folks here on rcm are the the ones (when kids) who
took apart the Westclock Big Ben and never quite got it back together.
They're the ones who were busy hooking up Ford coils to the school
doorknobs.
They're the ones who sent away for those "Build your own Jet Engine"
plans. And did it. (one of them went on to make some even more cool
gas turbine engines)
Pyrotechnics, firearms, DIY excavation equipment. Welding, Brazing,
Motors, and how should I test this pressure vessel. Anyone do the
mechanical design for hoist for me?
These folks don't need *that* much encouragement. A pretty bold
lot they are - I don't want to let on where I live (Peekskill, NY)
as no doubt I would come home one night and find a bunch of them
in my basement 'borrowing' time on my machines! <hey! you all go
home now!>
Not your average shy retiring flowers.
But of course, if you encourage one person to sharpen a drill - that's
great. And from the comments about your instructions, folks appreciate.
Great also (though I suspect you could do a better job, and make
more money, if you set up a lecture circuit to actually *show* the
process in action. Not being snide here, either).
Best - Jim
Glenn Lyford
>splitting the points and it is a good idea to keep your wheel
>dressed properly
>... but that applies to almost any grinding operation, no?
So the obvious next question is, what type of wheel dresser do
you prefer to use with a bench grinder? Wheel type? Abrasive
stick type? Point type? Or does it not really matter as long
as you get an even wheel?
--Glenn
Robert Bastow
In order of preferrence...(Mine)
Star wheel..still the best hand dresser for a fresh, open, sharp, cool cutting
wheel!
Cheap, easy to use, as accurate as you wish it to be, and almost impossible to
screw up.
No shop should be without one! Or Two!
Crush roller..not easy to use SAFELY on a bench wheel, certainly not by a first
timer.
Diamond...Must be used under rigid control, at precisely the right angles,
indexed frequently and methodically, etc. Under the right circumstances and
used by a knowledgeable person, on the right wheel..yad..yada..a diamond can
produce a near perfect wheel surface.
Used wrongly, on the wrong wheel, in the wrong way, it is an expensive, short
lived device for totally screwing up a wheel surface!!
Stick...Do not like those on bench wheels. Cheap, but produce a blunt hot wheel
unless expertly used. Handy for touching up corners etc on grinding machines.
Spinning abrasive dressers...like a Star wheel but with an abrasive wheel.
I have never seen or used one. Great claims made by the manufacturers, but until
I see or hear different from a REAL expert, I can't visualise a technological
breakthrough that would make them any better than a stick dresser with a higher
price tag and an ability to do more damage faster.
Strike me as a sort of "Ginsu knife" of the dressers.
However, I have an open mind and I'm ready to be convinced otherwise.
(Caveat to Ex-Spurts..Please don't bring a Ginsu knife to a gun fight!!)
8^)
Teenut
mull...@advinc.com
Robert Bastow <tee...@home.com> wrote:
> Star wheel..still the best hand dresser for a fresh, open, sharp, cool
> cutting wheel!
Doggone. We agree about *something*, Robert.
Now if you have a magic recipe for inhibiting the spray
of abrasive particles whenever I use mine that would be
truly amazing. I now have a practical lesson on why
shops have a separate room for all grinding operations!
Robert Bastow
mull...@advinc.com wrote:
>
> Doggone. We agree about *something*, Robert.
Oooh!
You walked right into this one Jim!! (I wouldn't be able to sleep tonight if I
didn't say it...)
"Maybe that's because you were correct about something,for a change!!!"
8^) 8*) 8*) 8*)
Yes I KNOW I am going to pay for that one Jim! Give me at least 24 hours to
enjoy it though. Please!
>
> Now if you have a magic recipe for inhibiting the spray
> of abrasive particles whenever I use mine that would be
> truly amazing.
The Impossible we do immediately...Miracles take a little longer!!
I do a LOT of grinding in my shop..98% of it on my 2HP 2" x 72" Burr King Belt
Grinder...Making Blades.
I find that placing a tray, bucket, saucer of water under the grinder, in direct
line with the jet of grit, will catch a very large portion of it..like MOST of
it.
I use a five gallon pail, because it is my slack tub (quenching container) for
cooling while grinding.
I don't use plain water (Never Drink Water...Have you seen what it does to the
inside of RADIATORS!!!)
I add a half a cup of dishwasher liquid to it (the sort that is kindest to my
hands!!) The purpose of this is to break the surface tension and allow the dust
to sink..this stops it scumming up, rusting, contaminating the work piece and
yukking my hands when I "dunk" I swear, it stops dust etc from bouncing off the
surface, back into the air. Makes for a quick wash up tub, if I have to touch
something clean..Like going to take a leak!! How about that for a Teeshirt
slogan:
Machinists always wash their hands BEFORE going to the Bathroom
I also add a half cup of Pine Sol...stops Science Experiments in their tracks!
Also prevents minor infections to your hands..makes it pong a bit sweeter too!!
Finally, I add half a cup of baking soda to my brew..stops newly ground surfaces
from instantly rusting when you dunk...for a surprisingly long time too. I have
BAD "Rusty Hands"..every steel surface I touch will turn to rusty palmprints
before your eyes. It used to be a major PITA, UNTIL I started using the above
mixture. I think the constant dunking of my hands in it also helps to
neutralize the acid sweat before it can do any harm!
Steel parts come out with what seems to be a short to medium term protective
coating. I can freshly grind a blade, quench it and chuck it under the bench
for a month or more..even in the middle of summer. Provided I don't handle it
too much, it will remain rust free.
(As an aside to that, when I went to interview for my Apprenticeship, the
"Super" gave me a freshly made steel bolt to look at and handle. I later
discovered this was standard hiring procedure, The bolt was left on the desk
overnight, and if it was tool badly rusted the following morning..They didn't
hire you as an apprentice!!)
I don't get much dust from grinding on the wheels, and I try to avoid dressing
needlessly. If a wheel is properly chosen, mounted, balanced and dressed in the
first place, and provided it is properly used..it won't need redressing wery
often. Couple of times a year in my shop.
When I DO fetch out the star wheel, I use the above quoted receptacle of
"water", and I cover everything in sight with DAMP towels..They catch and trap
the dust far better than dry ones do. Spray down every exposed surface with WD
40 or something similar and then have a good wipe up after. The oil may trap
dust on machine surfaces..but that is far better than having the DRY dust
ricochetting around and finally settling on surfaces you CAN'T reach.
cheers
teenut
ULAV8R
>
snip
>
> Spinning abrasive dressers...like a Star wheel but with an abrasive wheel.
>
> I have never seen or used one. Great claims made by the manufacturers, but until
> I see or hear different from a REAL expert, I can't visualise a technological
> breakthrough that would make them any better than a stick dresser with a higher
> price tag and an ability to do more damage faster.
>
> Strike me as a sort of "Ginsu knife" of the dressers.
>
> However, I have an open mind and I'm ready to be convinced otherwise.
>
> (Caveat to Ex-Spurts..Please don't bring a Ginsu knife to a gun fight!!)
That type of dresser is useful for diamond wheels bonded with polyimide,
used to cut away the polyimide to expose fresh diamond.
DoN. Nichols
PKDickman <pkdi...@aol.com> wrote:
[ ... ]
>I took a welding for non tech majors course in college. Being for non techs the
>prof was pretty loose about the curriculum, but he said you have to learn one
>thing to pass. That was how to sharpen a drill bit. He explained how the bit
>really works and showed us all how to sharpen. I learned in a half hour a skill
>I still use daily.
>
>Sure if I have to drill a 1/16 in hole 5 in deep I'll buy a new bit, but most
>holes are less than two diameters and don't need a microscope perfect drill.
Well ... I drill holes on the lathe which are the tap drill for
1/4-20, but which *in effect* are several inches deep. This is because
the drill, and the tap, are two stations on a bed turret on my lathe,
and I'm working with 6 feet of brass rod stock. Aside from other parts
of the work, I'm also drilling, tapping (with a gun drill -- at speed),
and then parting off. Then I shift the brass stock to a stop (also in
the turret), and drill tap and part again. I have to drill deep enough
to provide chip clearance ahead of the tap, so the next hole starts in
an already drilled one. After ten parts or so, the hole has walked
off-center enough so I part off about 3/4" of stock to get a clean face
for a new center drill, to keep things from walking far enough off
center to break the drill or the tap. So -- even though each individual
drill pass is only about 1-1/4", the effective depth of the hole is much
greater, and a drill which does not want to walk off center as much is a
good thing to have.
Enjoy,
DoN.
--
Email: <dnic...@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
My Concertina web page: | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
JP
Great post! I use a large metal funnel with the small end cut off and
fitted with a 3" water heater vent elbow affixed (sheet metal screws)
to the rear skirt of my chop saw, behind the blade. My wife got real
pissed at the nice black circle on the side of her garden tool storage
closet and told me to fix it pronto. She did me a favor, it really
keeps most of the grit off of the floor. After all, I looked at the
flow and wondered how I could "funnel" into another direction. I did
this of course after trying a piece of flashing directly behind the
saw. My shirt looked like I was a smoker again..talk about ricochet!
Damn near set my hair on fire!! Anyway, the crap and sparks now fly
through it and down into a gallon metal can almost 100%.
Teenut, I loved your slogan about washing your hands BEFORE you go to
the bathroom. Ohhhhh yahh, I know that one! We live in the Southwest
and love chili, hot chili. We had some hot Jalapenos roasted last
year and were peeling them to put into bags to freeze them. I ran in
the house to take a squirt and MY pepper got hotter than a son of a
bitch. My wife was trying to be sympathetic but would run off to
laugh her ass off, putting a sofa pillow over mouth to muffle the
roar! I pulled all I could together and said I was ok (even though I
was burning like hell) and that the experience made me want to make
love, right away! She looked at me like I was crazy and stared at me
in confusion for about 2 minutes and then she said, "Hell no! Not
unless you shower first and I wash "it"! Pretty sharp gal I have.
I have also had that same surprise (shall I say PRICKLY?) feeling
after fooling with auto batteries and metal prep. I use protection
now...in the form of gloves. I always take them off to take a leak.
Thanks for the tip and jogging my brain to reminisce that wonderful
day.
Regards,
JP
mull...@advinc.com
J...@noemail.com (JP) wrote:
> She looked at me like I was crazy and stared at me
> in confusion for about 2 minutes and then she said, "Hell no! Not
> unless you shower first ...
Hmm. How odd. My wife *loves* the taste of hot peppers.
mull...@advinc.com
Robert Bastow <tee...@home.com> wrote:
> Give me at least 24 hours to
> enjoy it though. Please!
Hmm. When does the clock start a-ticking?
Mike Graham
>So the obvious next question is, what type of wheel dresser do
>you prefer to use with a bench grinder? Wheel type? Abrasive
>stick type? Point type? Or does it not really matter as long
>as you get an even wheel?
I use a diamond dresser to *shape* the wheel, but I use a star-wheel
dressser to deglaze the wheel. I've got a little 'jig' made out of a piece
of wood cut in half with notches that clamps onto the diamond dresser. By
running the wood back and forth on the outer edge of the 'table' I get a
very straight, very nice surface. When a wheel gets glazed, I just run a
star wheel over it. Works beauty. If the wheel starts getting wonkily
shaped, then I run the diamond over it again. Used carefully, a diamond is
forever... at least in a home shop environment. I haven't used one of those
1" wide multi-diamond dressers, but I'd like to.
Mike Graham
>Now if you have a magic recipe for inhibiting the spray
>of abrasive particles whenever I use mine that would be
>truly amazing. I now have a practical lesson on why
>shops have a separate room for all grinding operations!
Try filling the star wheels with grease. That catches the dust.
KIDDING!!! Don't try that! You'll get coated with grease, and the dust
will stick to you.
Mike Graham
>from instantly rusting when you dunk...for a surprisingly long time too. I have
>BAD "Rusty Hands"..every steel surface I touch will turn to rusty palmprints
>before your eyes. It used to be a major PITA, UNTIL I started using the above
>mixture. I think the constant dunking of my hands in it also helps to
>neutralize the acid sweat before it can do any harm!
I have this, too. Luckily none of the guys at the shop that I worked at
until recently had ever heard of it, because you can see my palmprints (and
elbow prints!) on every machine in there, and they have *no idea* where they
came from. 8-)
>(As an aside to that, when I went to interview for my Apprenticeship, the
>"Super" gave me a freshly made steel bolt to look at and handle. I later
>discovered this was standard hiring procedure, The bolt was left on the desk
>overnight, and if it was tool badly rusted the following morning..They didn't
>hire you as an apprentice!!)
I've heard of that before... probably on this group. I think someone
mentioned a guy who had several metal samples (steel, copper and brass,
maybe) for applicants to handle.
>I don't get much dust from grinding on the wheels, and I try to avoid dressing
>needlessly. If a wheel is properly chosen, mounted, balanced and dressed in the
>first place, and provided it is properly used..it won't need redressing wery
>often. Couple of times a year in my shop.
Do you include 'deglazing' under the heading of 'dressing'?
tonyp
Mike Graham <mikeg...@sprint.ca> wrote
> Hey, you heard it here first. Well, actually *I* heard it here first a
> few months ago. I'm just regurgitating it. 8-) Well, I guess
everything
> on here is regurgitated, more or less...
Remember the fundamental principle of usenet: everything's been said, but
not everyone's had a chance to say it!
--
Tony Prentakis
Consumer of time, occupier of space, producer of Z-stages
"How can I know what I think until I hear what I have to say?"
mull...@advinc.com
mikeg...@sprint.ca wrote:
> Do you include 'deglazing' under the heading of 'dressing'?
Darn straight, Mike. My wheels get *all* loaded up with aluminum
and brass.
Robert Bastow
Mike Graham wrote:
>
> On Tue, 12 Oct 1999 19:21:45 GMT, Robert Bastow wrote:
If a wheel is properly chosen, mounted, balanced and dressed in the
> >first place, and provided it is properly used..it won't need redressing wery
> >often. Couple of times a year in my shop.
>
> Do you include 'deglazing' under the heading of 'dressing'?
Absolutely!..Which is why I only need to redress a couple of times a
year...usually for a picky job, or because the wheel has worn out of balance!
NEVER to deglaze! Because my wheels never get glazed!
I hasten to add, that, that is because I do all my heavy, rough,and soft metal
gringing on a BIG belt sander..never on a hard wheel grinder!
I have two D/E grinders, one is fitted with a 60 grit White alox wheel for tool
steel roughing, and, my frequently used, soft steel wire brush.
The other has straight cup wheels at each end..Green grit for carbide and 60
grit white alox for finish grinding HSS tools.
The bonds on all these wheels are soft enough to prevent glazing..and of course,
not grinding anything much under 58/60 Rc means I dont get any loading.
First thing I do with a new grinder is take off those 'orrible grey "Rocks" they
come with and chuck them in the trash! Tho' next time I'm gonna put them on
Ebay!! ;^)
teenut
Mike Graham
>NEVER to deglaze! Because my wheels never get glazed!
How do you keep the white wheel from changing shape when you're roughing
HSS? I have a hard time not gouging it.
>I have two D/E grinders, one is fitted with a 60 grit White alox wheel for tool
>steel roughing, and, my frequently used, soft steel wire brush.
I've got two; an 8" and a 6". The 8" has the original coarse 'rock' on
one side (actually handy for rough deburring of stuff that's going to be
welded) and an 8" scratch wheel on the other side. I wouldn't be without
that wire wheel, for sure! The 6" grinder has a brown-grit wheel for
general purpose stuff, and a white wheel for 'delicates'. I'd love to be
able to justify a diamond cup-wheel.
Joe Way
>In article <ZB%M3.11591$j35.2...@newscontent-01.sprint.ca>,
> mikeg...@sprint.ca wrote:
>
>> Do you include 'deglazing' under the heading of 'dressing'?
>
>Darn straight, Mike. My wheels get *all* loaded up with aluminum
>and brass.
>
>Jim
>
-----
Hmmm....one really shouldn't grind anything that doesn't throw sparks.
Stuff like aluminum and brass *will* load up the wheel, then get it
hot and maybe cause it to break. Not a nice thing.
Joe
Heather & Joe Way
Sierra Specialty Automotive
Brake cylinders sleeved with brass
Delco alternator One-Wire conversions
http://www.restoresource.com
mull...@advinc.com
Joe Way <j...@restoresource.com> wrote:
> Hmmm....one really shouldn't grind anything that doesn't throw sparks.
Drat. The wrong person replied!! Joe, get off the hook and
give Mr B a chance....
Robert Bastow
tools, then the grey Aluminum Oxide is the best all round choice..just keep it
cleanly dressed.
If you are going to stay with that type of wheel..Do bear in mind, that the
wheels fitted as OEM, even by "Reputable, Name Brand, Domestic" manufacturers
are the cheapest, nastiest POS they can get away with.
The import "Rocks" are unspeakable!!
Invest in a couple of good quality, grey wheels..They are not expensive, and the
difference will amaze you.
Best advice I can give is to have one Grey wheel for general grinding and one
white wheel reserved for tool grinding.
teenut
Jens wrote:
>
> Robert Bastow <tee...@home.com> wrote:
>
> >First thing I do with a new grinder is take off those 'orrible grey "Rocks" they
> >come with and chuck them in the trash! Tho' next time I'm gonna put them on
> >Ebay!! ;^)
>
> Hmmm .... my two grinders still have those 'orrible grey rocks' they
> came with on them.
>
> Jens
Robert Bastow
Mike Graham wrote:
>
> On Wed, 13 Oct 1999 19:00:24 GMT, Robert Bastow wrote:
>
> >NEVER to deglaze! Because my wheels never get glazed!
>
> How do you keep the white wheel from changing shape when you're roughing
> HSS? I have a hard time not gouging it.
Don't push so hard!! ;^)
Let the wheel cut and keep it moving. The white wheels for tool steel are soft
enough to let go of grains as they get blunted. In effect, you are
continuously dressing the wheel. Just don't keep redressing it all in the same
spot!!
It might help to remember that the wheel is a "consumable" Don't try to or
expect it to last for ever.
>
> >I have two D/E grinders, one is fitted with a 60 grit White alox wheel for tool
> >steel roughing, and, my frequently used, soft steel wire brush.
>
> I've got two; an 8" and a 6". The 8" has the original coarse 'rock' on
> one side (actually handy for rough deburring of stuff that's going to be
> welded) and an 8" scratch wheel on the other side. I wouldn't be without
> that wire wheel, for sure!
I have never managed to get as good results with an 8" wheel as I do with
6"..for any purposes, but especially tool grinding.
Bear in mind, that the "Hardness" of any given type, or grit size wheel, is a
function of the bond, the density (Structure) AND the peripheral speed. The
faster the wheel turns the HARDER it acts!!
The 6" grinder has a brown-grit wheel for
> general purpose stuff, and a white wheel for 'delicates'. I'd love to be
> able to justify a diamond cup-wheel.
Justification is a "Bad Work"!
teenut
Robert Bastow
mull...@advinc.com wrote:
>
> In article <AhUFONc76bWdUv...@4ax.com>,
> Joe Way <j...@restoresource.com> wrote:
>
> > Hmmm....one really shouldn't grind anything that doesn't throw sparks.
>
> Drat. The wrong person replied!! Joe, get off the hook and
> give Mr B a chance....
>
> Jim
I thought that Joe summed it up rather well. 8^)
teenut
Mike Graham
>I have never managed to get as good results with an 8" wheel as I do with
>6"..for any purposes, but especially tool grinding.
I find it to be quite effective for rough work. The high speed *does*
make it act 'finer', so I kept the coarse wheel instead of the fine wheel.
An 8" scratch wheel leaves a 6" scratch wheel in the dust, for sure. I
use it for fine deburring as well as chewing off rust and whatnot.
>Justification is a "Bad Work"!
8-) Well, when the tool money gets limited, you've got to make your
choices. There's no point in buying a diamond wheel when I didn't even have
anything that uses carbide tooling. Now that I have the Bridgeport, I don't
have the money. Ah well.
mull...@advinc.com
Robert Bastow <tee...@home.com> wrote:
> I thought that Joe summed it up rather well. 8^)
I was *going* to say that they work great for putting
points on the ends of my 2X4s!
mull...@advinc.com
"kenneth knaell" <kna...@erols.com> wrote:
>
> Those 8" grinders turning at 3600RPM kind of scare me.
No kidding - for more than just one reason. I always believed
that pedestal grinders are one of the more dangerous items
in a shop.
They look so gentle, just spinning there. But the energy
locked in that wheel is terrific, and they can remove
skin and bone at a very rapid rate.
Try the following experiment: Take your toolbit, and
while somebody else is driving, open up the passenger side
door and start sharpening the tool on the pavement whizzing
by. Bet you hold that tool a lot more carefully than
when you are on your pedestal grinder - but the operation
is pretty much the same.