OT -- Bridges dropped in Iraq
Ignoramus2168
Iraq. And the media has been talking about how they are made to make
"spectacular headlines" or how it inconveniences ordinary Iraqis.
I want to remind everyone involves that the US military in Iraq
requires enormous amounts of supplies, such as fuel, food, ammunition,
etc. These supplies cannot be delivered by air and travel through,
guess what, bridges.
If their supplies become restricted, so does their advantage over
insurgents.
This article reflects my own thoughts on the latest bridge dropping
campaign by Al Quaeda. I do not approve of their abuse of buzzwords,
but agree with the point that they make.
Two articles here,
- one with thoughts on traffic restrictions, and
- another is a PDF document detailing food restrictions at US embassy
due to food convoy problems. (read below abouot "theater wide food
restrictions").
======================================================================
http://cernigsnewshog.blogspot.com/2007/06/restricting-flow-and-option-space.html
Restricting flow and option space
I have been slowly following the ongoing anti-bridge campaign being
carried by the Iraqi insurgencies for the past couple of months. The
basic strategic goal of the campaign is to reduce option space and
create more bottlenecks and chokepoints that force a predictable
pooling of targets and rent seeking opportunities. USA Today is
reporting of another successful highway overpass being dropped south
of Baghdad:
Suspected Sunni insurgents bombed and badly damaged a span over
the main north-south highway leading from Baghdad on Tuesday the
third bridge attack in as many days in an apparent campaign against
key transportation arteries.
The attack occurred 35 miles south of Baghdad and just six miles
south of a bridge brought down on Sunday...
About 60% of the bridge was damaged, and cars could still pass
over it via one lane, police said. But debris from the blast fell on
the main north-south expressway below, further complicating efforts to
reopen that main artery, closed after Sunday's blast dropped masses of
concrete onto the roadway.
On Monday, a parked truck bomb destroyed a bridge carrying traffic
over the Diyala River in Baqouba, 35 miles northeast of Baghdad. There
were no casualties, but vehicles were being forced to detour to a road
running through al-Qaeda-controlled territory to reach important
nearby cities.....
Earlier this month, a bomb heavily damaged the Sarhat Bridge, a
key crossing 90 miles north of the capital on a major road connecting
Baghdad with Irbil, Sulaimaniya and other Kurdish cities.
In March and April, three of Baghdad's 13 bridges over the Tigris
River were bombed. The attacks were blamed on Sunni insurgent or
al-Qaeda attempts to divide the city's predominantly Shiite east bank
from the mostly Sunni western side of the river.
It has long been a common belief that the Shi'ite militias have been
winning the battles to control significant chunks of Baghdad's
previously mixed neighborhoods, while at the same time, the Sunni
Arabs insurgencies have controlled the access to Baghdad from the
northeast, north, west, south and southeast. It is through the control
of the logistics pipeline that the Sunni Arab guerrillas will be able
to isolate the city and localized the strength of the Mahdi Army and
the Badr Brigades. Baghdad can not function as a modern city with all
of its road and air links to the outside world cut.
Each individual bridge attack is relatively insignificant as there are
sufficient bridges to allow for re-routing with minimal marginal
cost. However a systemic campaign on the same routes, even against the
easier to replace highway overpasses, will begin to slow down the
already restricted flow of commerce and supply into the city.
Tim F of Balloon Juice made an interesting analogy to me in an e-mail
this morning on the functionality of cities and populations under
stress:
In ecology they say that a population under tremendous stress can
lose diversity well before it loses numbers, as the least
stress-tolerant variations begin to die off first. Then, when the
population has few evolutionary routes
left open to it, an orthogonal stressor can arrive and the end
comes surprisingly fast.
My feeling is that the same could happen to us. Our convoys could
keep rolling at the same rate as always, giving the impression that
everything is fine. But come the day when we only have one bridge left
over which we can roll, well...
The flow of supplies to Baghdad from the south and from other areas in
Iraq may not be restricted as long as there is rapid reconstitution
and reconstruction capacity. However the variety of goods, and the
cost of shipments will continue to increase as the United States and
any other major user of the Iraqi road network will continue to be
funnelled into a narrower option space. The road network is
transforming from a reasonably resiliant system to a narrower, and
more brittle system with more single points of failure.
======================================================================
http://noquarter.typepad.com/my_weblog/files/iraq_food_deliveries.pdf
``Due to a theater-wide delay in food delivery, menu selections will
be limited for the near future. While every effort will be made to
provide balanced meals, it may not be possible to offer the dishes you
are used to seeing at each meal. Fresh fruits and salad bar items
will also be severely limited or unavailable.''
Larry Jaques
Ignoramus2168 <ignora...@NOSPAM.2168.invalid> quickly quoth:
>As we know, there have been a few attacks on strategic bridges in
>Iraq. And the media has been talking about how they are made to make
>"spectacular headlines" or how it inconveniences ordinary Iraqis.
--snip--
I read a recent front page headline in the newspaper and had to sigh
deeply. It said _U.S. Now Controls Half of Baghdad_, and it made me
think "Hmmm, 4 years, hundreds of billions of dollars, an entire
country's army helping, and we're up to half a city now?"
<big sigh>
--
A thief is more moral than a congressman;
when a thief steals your money, he doesn't demand you thank him.
--Walter Williams, interviewed by John Stossel for "Greed"
Gunner
<novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 14:49:31 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm,
>Ignoramus2168 <ignora...@NOSPAM.2168.invalid> quickly quoth:
>
>>As we know, there have been a few attacks on strategic bridges in
>>Iraq. And the media has been talking about how they are made to make
>>"spectacular headlines" or how it inconveniences ordinary Iraqis.
>
>--snip--
>
>I read a recent front page headline in the newspaper and had to sigh
>deeply. It said _U.S. Now Controls Half of Baghdad_, and it made me
>think "Hmmm, 4 years, hundreds of billions of dollars, an entire
>country's army helping, and we're up to half a city now?"
>
><big sigh>
When political adversity prevents the Berlin Mode of Pacification..its
to be expected.
Bridge dropping will have one of two results long term. Give the US and
the Coallition forces a much tougher row to how..or finally piss off Joe
Couscous because his kids are going hungry and the average Haj will rise
up and stomp the insurgents into the clay.
Gunner
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet,
balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying,
take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations,
analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer,
cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.
Specialization is for insects. Lazarus Long
Larry Jaques
<gun...@lightspeed.net> quickly quoth:
>Berlin Mode of Pacification
Does not Google. Sprain preese.
- Metaphors Be With You -
Lew Hartswick
...lew...
Ignoramus5268
> On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 14:49:31 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm,
> Ignoramus2168 <ignora...@NOSPAM.2168.invalid> quickly quoth:
>
>>As we know, there have been a few attacks on strategic bridges in
>>Iraq. And the media has been talking about how they are made to make
>>"spectacular headlines" or how it inconveniences ordinary Iraqis.
>
>
> deeply. It said _U.S. Now Controls Half of Baghdad_, and it made me
> think "Hmmm, 4 years, hundreds of billions of dollars, an entire
> country's army helping, and we're up to half a city now?"
This is a very precarious position, to have a headquarters in a
hostile city where only a half of it is controlled (if we are to
believe the assertion that one half is actually controlled).
i
Gunner
http://wilk.wpk.p.lodz.pl/~whatfor/aa5/berlin1945-a.jpg
http://worldwar2database.com/cgi-bin/slideviewer.cgi?list=berlin_45.slides
Where is Marshal Zukov when we need him.....
Gunner
Bomb it till its rubble, then keep bombing until the rubble bounces and
THEN send in the troops.
Gunner
Like east and west Berlin?
Ignoramus5268
> On Tue, 03 Jul 2007 08:05:59 -0500, Ignoramus5268
><ignora...@NOSPAM.5268.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 20:51:49 -0700, Larry Jaques <novalidaddress@di> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 14:49:31 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm,
>>> Ignoramus2168 <ignora...@NOSPAM.2168.invalid> quickly quoth:
>>>
>>>>As we know, there have been a few attacks on strategic bridges in
>>>>Iraq. And the media has been talking about how they are made to make
>>>>"spectacular headlines" or how it inconveniences ordinary Iraqis.
>>>
>>>
>>> I read a recent front page headline in the newspaper and had to sigh
>>> deeply. It said _U.S. Now Controls Half of Baghdad_, and it made me
>>> think "Hmmm, 4 years, hundreds of billions of dollars, an entire
>>> country's army helping, and we're up to half a city now?"
>>This is a very precarious position, to have a headquarters in a
>>hostile city where only a half of it is controlled (if we are to
>>believe the assertion that one half is actually controlled).
>>
>>i
> Like east and west Berlin?
>
Gunner, though I often disagree with you, I respect your opinions and
knowledge.
Baghdad is no Berlin and there is no sense to dwell on this.
My question to you personally is what do you think about security of
US troops and the Green Zone, in light of their supply requirements,
bridge bombings, and the convoy situation. Do you think that there is
a risk of them being isolated from supplies and then destroyed. I
would like to hear some reasoned opinion, and not boiler plate
propaganda.
i
Rex
Google "Dresden"
Larry Jaques
<gun...@lightspeed.net> quickly quoth:
>On Tue, 03 Jul 2007 03:16:25 -0700, Larry Jaques
><novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 03 Jul 2007 07:20:19 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, Gunner
>><gun...@lightspeed.net> quickly quoth:
>>
>>>Berlin Mode of Pacification
>>
>>Does not Google. Sprain preese.
>
>http://wilk.wpk.p.lodz.pl/~whatfor/aa5/berlin1945-a.jpg
That's certainly pacified.
--
Seen on a bumper sticker: ARM THE HOMELESS
Wes
>My question to you personally is what do you think about security of
>US troops and the Green Zone, in light of their supply requirements,
>bridge bombings, and the convoy situation. Do you think that there is
>a risk of them being isolated from supplies and then destroyed. I
>would like to hear some reasoned opinion, and not boiler plate
>propaganda.
Combat engineers will come up with a bridge repair or other crossing
technique. It is something they train for. Our vehicles will have priority
in crossing.
Here is a start:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_engineering
Wes
Gunner
<ignora...@NOSPAM.5268.invalid> wrote:
I love you to. except when you start blaming the US for everything from
the Crusades to jock itch.
There is no danger of the Green Zone becoming a lonely starving outpost
ala Beau Gest. We can lay bridges faster than they can blow em up and
when they come to blow em up..we kill em.
Berlin airlift ring any bells? Khe San? All were resupplied by air
assets handily. Its only because of our desire to NOT use the Berlin
(or Dresden) Option in Iraq is it possible for the insurgents to go
along with their business We are a much kinder and gentler US these
days..and flattening an entire neighborhood like we did in Germany when
we received incoming fire is not in our current playbooks.
Frankly..its because of our dislike of playing hardball that we are in
the mess that we are in now. You CAN drive a 16 penny nail with a tack
hammer. But its gonna take a long time. Or you can use a 3lb sledge and
do it in a single lick.
You should know better. You are an ex citizen of the USSR are you not?
And you have no history of Marshal Zukov and his rather bloody and heavy
handed treatment of German insurgents and how fucking quickly they all
joined hands and gave a group hug and starting singing Kumbya. Err..La
Intenational or whatever the fuck the Soviet national anthem was.
Im curious..do you think that gangrene should be treated by picking out
the individual green stinky spots or do you think taking the entire leg
off is gonna be more or less tramautic to the body politic?
Ill be waiting for your answer.
Gunner
Indeed.
Gunner
<novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 03 Jul 2007 16:06:09 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, Gunner
><gun...@lightspeed.net> quickly quoth:
>
>>On Tue, 03 Jul 2007 03:16:25 -0700, Larry Jaques
>><novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 03 Jul 2007 07:20:19 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, Gunner
>>><gun...@lightspeed.net> quickly quoth:
>>>
>>>>Berlin Mode of Pacification
>>>
>>>Does not Google. Sprain preese.
>>
>>http://wilk.wpk.p.lodz.pl/~whatfor/aa5/berlin1945-a.jpg
>
>That's certainly pacified.
The recidivism rate is zero.
Too_Many_Tools
wrote:
> As we know, there have been a few attacks on strategic bridges in
> Iraq. And the media has been talking about how they are made to make
> "spectacular headlines" or how it inconveniences ordinary Iraqis.
>
> I want to remind everyone involves that the US military in Iraq
> requires enormous amounts of supplies, such as fuel, food, ammunition,
> etc. These supplies cannot be delivered by air and travel through,
> guess what, bridges.
>
> If their supplies become restricted, so does their advantage over
> insurgents.
>
> This article reflects my own thoughts on the latest bridge dropping
> campaign by Al Quaeda. I do not approve of their abuse of buzzwords,
> but agree with the point that they make.
>
> Two articles here,
>
> - one with thoughts on traffic restrictions, and
> - another is a PDF document detailing food restrictions at US embassy
> due to food convoy problems. (read below abouot "theater wide food
> restrictions").
>
>
> ``Due to a theater-wide delay in food delivery, menu selections will
> be limited for the near future. While every effort will be made to
> provide balanced meals, it may not be possible to offer the dishes you
> are used to seeing at each meal. Fresh fruits and salad bar items
> will also be severely limited or unavailable.''
I would agree with your assessment of the situation.
And as support and funding for the Iraq mistake declines, the ability
to survive will diminish.
Remember the photos of the United States leaving Vietnam after many
years, many dollars and many American lives wasted?
http://www.vietnamwar.com/fallofsaigon.htm
I remember being told by an officer that the United States would never
exit Vietnam the way it did.
TMT
Ignoramus5268
> I love you to. except when you start blaming the US for everything from
> the Crusades to jock itch.
That is not a truthful description of my opinions.
> There is no danger of the Green Zone becoming a lonely starving outpost
> ala Beau Gest. We can lay bridges faster than they can blow em up and
> when they come to blow em up..we kill em.
I am not so sure, especially when it comes to bridges laid over wide
rivers like Euphrates or Tigris. Bridge spans need to be brought in,
for example. Hard to do that without fuel. The ones I saw on
govliquidation, were too large to be carried by a helicopter (at least
they seemed that way to me).
> Berlin airlift ring any bells? Khe San? All were resupplied by air
> assets handily.
Except that the Baghdad airport is far from Green Zone and goes
through some hostile territory.
> Its only because of our desire to NOT use the Berlin (or Dresden)
> Option in Iraq is it possible for the insurgents to go along with
> their business We are a much kinder and gentler US these days..and
> flattening an entire neighborhood like we did in Germany when we
> received incoming fire is not in our current playbooks.
Well, flatten ing whole cities happened in Iraq, the example is
Al-Fallouja. It is not practicable, these days, to do it on a large
scale.
> Frankly..its because of our dislike of playing hardball that we are in
> the mess that we are in now. You CAN drive a 16 penny nail with a tack
> hammer. But its gonna take a long time. Or you can use a 3lb sledge and
> do it in a single lick.
>
> You should know better. You are an ex citizen of the USSR are you
> not?
Yes.
> And you have no history of Marshal Zukov and his rather bloody and heavy
> handed treatment of German insurgents and how fucking quickly they all
> joined hands and gave a group hug and starting singing Kumbya. Err..La
> Intenational or whatever the fuck the Soviet national anthem was.
The history books about post-war Germany, do not give a lot of
examples of German insurgent activity.
Now, for the opposite example, look at German occupation of
Belorussia, which was very heavy handed, to the point of having about
50% of civilians perish due to war. Despite that, partisans ended up
controlling large areas of Belorussia, and at the critical moment
denied Germans the ability to use transportation. Google "operation
rail war bagration" for details.
Obvious parallels with the 1944 rail war and bridge dropping campaign,
are left as an exercise to the reader.
> Im curious..do you think that gangrene should be treated by picking out
> the individual green stinky spots or do you think taking the entire leg
> off is gonna be more or less tramautic to the body politic?
> Ill be waiting for your answer.
Occupation troops are a gangrene in Iraq. They need to be removed,
with an apology given, and some money and politics directed to seeing
that less radical elements take power. Due to the events that
unfolded, and current Iraqi public opinion, an Iraq where government
follows wishes of its people, would not be very friendly to its former
occupier. The question now is to what extent. We made a terrible mess
out of a perfectly acceptable pre-war situation.
The question is whether we leave under sensible terms, or instead get
slaughtered like the German troops in Belorussian forests.
I am highly upset by this war, senseless lying, lack of clear thinking
and realism in the major constituencies.
i
Ignoramus5268
> Combat engineers will come up with a bridge repair or other crossing
> technique. It is something they train for. Our vehicles will have priority
> in crossing.
>
> Here is a start:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_engineering
>
I sincerely hope that they have the bridges positioned where they need
to be, instead of 5,000 miles away.
i
Too_Many_Tools
> On Tue, 03 Jul 2007 11:18:36 -0500, Ignoramus5268
>
>
>
>
>
> <ignoramus5...@NOSPAM.5268.invalid> wrote:
> >On Tue, 03 Jul 2007 16:07:41 GMT, Gunner <gun...@lightspeed.net> wrote:
> >> On Tue, 03 Jul 2007 08:05:59 -0500, Ignoramus5268
> >><ignoramus5...@NOSPAM.5268.invalid> wrote:
>
> >>>On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 20:51:49 -0700, Larry Jaques <novalidaddress@di> wrote:
> >>>> On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 14:49:31 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm,
>
> - Show quoted text -
Gunner hasn't been paying attention....the United States does not have
100% control of the airspace above Bagdad....or Iraq.
Doubt me? Then have Bush fly into Bagdad in Air Force One on an
announced visit.
I cannot imagine a better target for a ground to air missile than an
air lifted bridge section.
And Gunner....what would your suggested evasive actions be for the
crew flying in the copter carrying the bridge section....bend over and
kiss your butt goodbye?
TMT
technomaNge
>
>
> We made a terrible mess
> out of a perfectly acceptable pre-war situation.
>
Ig, I was following your reasoning, trying to
understand your point of view.
Then you lost me when you said life under
Saddham was acceptable.
You really believe that?
technomaNge
Dan
Yeah but momentarily 4 days ago they had control of about half Baghdad:
"WASHINGTON — In the face of stiffening insurgent resistance,
U.S. and Iraqi security forces now control about half of Baghdad,
the American commander overseeing operations said Friday.
Maj. Gen. Joseph F. Fil, Jr., commander of Multi-National Division
Baghdad, told reporters at the Pentagon that progress in securing
the capital has been steady and that while he could use more U.S.
troops he believes he has enough — with the recent arrival of
reinforcements — to complete his mission. etc etc"
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2007-06-29-baghdad_N.htm?csp=34
Won the war but not the city.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Ignoramus5268
> Ignoramus5268 wrote:
>> We made a terrible mess
>> out of a perfectly acceptable pre-war situation.
>
> Ig, I was following your reasoning, trying to
> understand your point of view.
>
> Then you lost me when you said life under
> Saddham was acceptable.
I did not say that.
I said that the situation with Iraq was acceptable (to us).
Life under Saddam was not good for Iraqis (maybe it was acceptable to
them, hard to say, their standards are different), and life after
Saddam is even worse.
i
Wes
>I sincerely hope that they have the bridges positioned where they need
>to be, instead of 5,000 miles away.
I don't think Rep. Murpha is in charge of bridge deployments. ;)
Wes
Gunner
<ignora...@NOSPAM.5268.invalid> wrote:
>On Tue, 03 Jul 2007 22:18:01 GMT, Gunner <gun...@lightspeed.net> wrote:
>> I love you to. except when you start blaming the US for everything from
>> the Crusades to jock itch.
>
>That is not a truthful description of my opinions.
Based on your statements in the past..its quite accurate. perhaps you
cant see the forest for the bias?
>
>> There is no danger of the Green Zone becoming a lonely starving outpost
>> ala Beau Gest. We can lay bridges faster than they can blow em up and
>> when they come to blow em up..we kill em.
>
>I am not so sure, especially when it comes to bridges laid over wide
>rivers like Euphrates or Tigris. Bridge spans need to be brought in,
>for example. Hard to do that without fuel. The ones I saw on
>govliquidation, were too large to be carried by a helicopter (at least
>they seemed that way to me).
Bridging techniques have been around since WW1. We are VERY good at the
art.
>
>> Berlin airlift ring any bells? Khe San? All were resupplied by air
>> assets handily.
>
>Except that the Baghdad airport is far from Green Zone and goes
>through some hostile territory.
Then we make it un hostile. B-52s do an admirable job of this.
>0
>> Its only because of our desire to NOT use the Berlin (or Dresden)
>> Option in Iraq is it possible for the insurgents to go along with
>> their business We are a much kinder and gentler US these days..and
>> flattening an entire neighborhood like we did in Germany when we
>> received incoming fire is not in our current playbooks.
>
>Well, flatten ing whole cities happened in Iraq, the example is
>Al-Fallouja. It is not practicable, these days, to do it on a large
>scale.
>
Blink blink..son..its VERY practicable to do this these days on a large
scale. In fact..we are very very good at it.
And no..Fallouja isnt flattened by any means. A couple neighborhoods
got rubbled. Period.
>> Frankly..its because of our dislike of playing hardball that we are in
>> the mess that we are in now. You CAN drive a 16 penny nail with a tack
>> hammer. But its gonna take a long time. Or you can use a 3lb sledge and
>> do it in a single lick.
>>
>> You should know better. You are an ex citizen of the USSR are you
>> not?
>
>Yes.
>
>> And you have no history of Marshal Zukov and his rather bloody and heavy
>> handed treatment of German insurgents and how fucking quickly they all
>> joined hands and gave a group hug and starting singing Kumbya. Err..La
>> Intenational or whatever the fuck the Soviet national anthem was.
>
>The history books about post-war Germany, do not give a lot of
>examples of German insurgent activity.
Budda bing. And you know why? Because the Russians killed them all.
>
>Now, for the opposite example, look at German occupation of
>Belorussia, which was very heavy handed, to the point of having about
>50% of civilians perish due to war. Despite that, partisans ended up
>controlling large areas of Belorussia, and at the critical moment
>denied Germans the ability to use transportation. Google "operation
>rail war bagration" for details.
Thats because the Russians provided huge amounts of support..and the
German supply lines were thread thin and easily cut.
>
>Obvious parallels with the 1944 rail war and bridge dropping campaign,
>are left as an exercise to the reader.
True indeed. The Germans however were in a world of shit in 1944, had
piss poor logistics and were fighting on 3 fronts.
>
>
>> Im curious..do you think that gangrene should be treated by picking out
>> the individual green stinky spots or do you think taking the entire leg
>> off is gonna be more or less tramautic to the body politic?
>
>
>> Ill be waiting for your answer.
>
>Occupation troops are a gangrene in Iraq. They need to be removed,
>with an apology given, and some money and politics directed to seeing
>that less radical elements take power. Due to the events that
>unfolded, and current Iraqi public opinion, an Iraq where government
>follows wishes of its people, would not be very friendly to its former
>occupier. The question now is to what extent. We made a terrible mess
>out of a perfectly acceptable pre-war situation.
>
Im glad to see that one again you validate my claims, despite your
denial.
Some money and politics directed to seeing "less radical elements take
power"......
Right. YOu simply dont understand that the More Radical Elements will
simply Kill all the Less Radical Elements and put their More Radical
Element into power.
What part of this do you not understand?
Why the hell do you think that Hitler rose to power, that Trotsky was
murdered and as well as Bukharin and the "right-wing deviationists"and
the Great Terror happened and so forth? Because the More Radical
Elements is a ephumism for
"More murderous and nasty bastards who simply dont care who they kill to
obtain control of all"
Why do you think Stalin murdered 3.5 Ukranians?
>The question is whether we leave under sensible terms, or instead get
>slaughtered like the German troops in Belorussian forests.
The German troops in Belorussia were cut off, and fighting in heavy..and
I mean HEAVY timber. Thats hardly the situation in fucking desert with
the sole surviving Super Power on the planet backing them up.
>
>I am highly upset by this war, senseless lying, lack of clear thinking
>and realism in the major constituencies.
>
You are sounding more and more like Democrat Party Leadership everyday.
Do they fax you talking points every morning? The irony of your
"senseless lying" statement is exquisite, based on this factoid.
>i
Gunner, who IS a student of military history and war.
Gunner
Chuckle...any point on the planet is less than 72 hours away for even
our heaviest elements.
Gunner
Chuckle..indeed.
Louis Ohland
Gunner wrote:
> Thats because the Russians provided huge amounts of support..and the
> German supply lines were thread thin and easily cut.
I wonder if the Iranian support of money and weapons is having anything
to do with extending the killing in Iraq? Maybe there is a reason why
the AQ types are still in business...
>> Occupation troops are a gangrene in Iraq. They need to be removed,
>> with an apology given, and some money and politics directed to seeing
>> that less radical elements take power. Due to the events that
>> unfolded, and current Iraqi public opinion, an Iraq where government
>> follows wishes of its people, would not be very friendly to its former
>> occupier. The question now is to what extent. We made a terrible mess
>> out of a perfectly acceptable pre-war situation.
Uh, less radical? Who? Apologize for wading in and removing Saddam? I
thought regime change when performed for the benefit of the citizens was
a positive good. Look at Kosovo. We still have forces there. Still
working on getting Serbia to hand over war criminals. Yet Democrats
aren't complaining about "perfectly acceptable pre-war condition", are they?
"Perfectly acceptable pre-war situation"? What, we don't give a rip for
20+ million folks ruled by a secret security apparatus that tortured,
raped, and killed, a leader that gassed kurds, and provided funds for
the families of homicide bombers in Israel?
Sunni control over Shia and Kurds? Uh, Sunni are NOT the majority of
the citizens. You must be content with the Sunni control of Iraq, even
though they used techniques that would make Stalin take notes.
> Why do you think Stalin murdered 3.5 Ukranians?
Stalin didn't murder them, common misunderstanding. The weren't smart
enough to live off bare dirt, so they starved. "Perfectly Acceptable"?
Read "Harvest of Sorrow"
>> The question is whether we leave under sensible terms, or instead get
>> slaughtered like the German troops in Belorussian forests.
You must be channeling Jack Murtha again. Is it sensible to cut and run,
and let the Iranian backed killers destabilize Iraq, or stick it out?
Gunner
wrote:
>My, a veritable feast.
>
>Gunner wrote:
>> Thats because the Russians provided huge amounts of support..and the
>> German supply lines were thread thin and easily cut.
>
>I wonder if the Iranian support of money and weapons is having anything
>to do with extending the killing in Iraq? Maybe there is a reason why
>the AQ types are still in business...
Of course. Which is why I emphasised the Russian support of the
partisans. We keep capturing Iranian military personel, and finding
Iranian military munitons, radios and so forth.
>
>>> Occupation troops are a gangrene in Iraq. They need to be removed,
>>> with an apology given, and some money and politics directed to seeing
>>> that less radical elements take power. Due to the events that
>>> unfolded, and current Iraqi public opinion, an Iraq where government
>>> follows wishes of its people, would not be very friendly to its former
>>> occupier. The question now is to what extent. We made a terrible mess
>>> out of a perfectly acceptable pre-war situation.
>
>Uh, less radical? Who? Apologize for wading in and removing Saddam? I
>thought regime change when performed for the benefit of the citizens was
>a positive good. Look at Kosovo. We still have forces there. Still
>working on getting Serbia to hand over war criminals. Yet Democrats
>aren't complaining about "perfectly acceptable pre-war condition", are they?
Ohoh..your gonna hurt Iggys world view if you are not careful....
>
>"Perfectly acceptable pre-war situation"? What, we don't give a rip for
>20+ million folks ruled by a secret security apparatus that tortured,
>raped, and killed, a leader that gassed kurds, and provided funds for
>the families of homicide bombers in Israel?
>
> Sunni control over Shia and Kurds? Uh, Sunni are NOT the majority of
>the citizens. You must be content with the Sunni control of Iraq, even
>though they used techniques that would make Stalin take notes.
>
>> Why do you think Stalin murdered 3.5 Ukranians?
>
>Stalin didn't murder them, common misunderstanding. The weren't smart
>enough to live off bare dirt, so they starved. "Perfectly Acceptable"?
>
Ah!
>Read "Harvest of Sorrow"
I have. Plus I count Ukrainian immigrants as personal friends of mine.
And know their parents..elderly now who lived through it.
>
>>> The question is whether we leave under sensible terms, or instead get
>>> slaughtered like the German troops in Belorussian forests.
>
>You must be channeling Jack Murtha again. Is it sensible to cut and run,
>and let the Iranian backed killers destabilize Iraq, or stick it out?
Ohoh..Iggy is gonna vaporize when he reads this.....
Gunner
Louis Ohland
Are these the "less radical" types that you want us to hand things over
to? Staying until the Iraqis can sort this out is the right thing to do.
The "1920 Revolutionary Brigades" are popping up in the news. You might
want to look them up. The challenge of finding Iraq organizations is
what will they do when we pop smoke?
Perhaps all the inter mural fighting will get them to a point where
they want to just get on with life. Might be too early to tell.
I study the human condition.
http://www.gilanet.com/ohlandl/catalog/collection.html
Where is your collection?
cavelamb himself
Maybe prewar life in Iraq was acceptable to US, but I think the local
Kings had a few concerns about the guy.
I've often wondered just how much influence they have on our government
(behind he scenes, of course).
Was the King of Kuwait happy to get his country back?
Or was he pissed off that we didn't take out Sadam back then?
John
>
>
> Bridging techniques have been around since WW1. We are VERY good at the
> art.
>
>
Study some more. The Army corp of Engineers has been around for a lot
longer than the first world war. Suggest you look up some of the
bridges the built during the Civil war and earlier.
Start here: http://www.hq.usace.army.mil/history/brief.htm
The test is next Friday :)
John
Too_Many_Tools
Much earlier...try checking out the Romans....darn good engineers.
TMT
Gunner
Of course you are right. Shrug. Hyperbole on my part.
Gunner
"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.
Think of it as having your older brother knock the shit out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner
john
Gunner wrote:
> On Wed, 04 Jul 2007 23:21:48 -0400, John <amd...@intergrafix.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Gunner wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Bridging techniques have been around since WW1. We are VERY good at the
>>>art.
>>>
>>
>>>Gunner, who IS a student of military history and war.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Study some more. The Army corp of Engineers has been around for a lot
>>longer than the first world war. Suggest you look up some of the
>>bridges the built during the Civil war and earlier.
>>
>>
>>Start here: http://www.hq.usace.army.mil/history/brief.htm
>>
>>
>>The test is next Friday :)
>>
>>
>>John
>
>
>
> Of course you are right. Shrug. Hyperbole on my part.
>
The pontoon bridge 2100 feet long was the thing that I remembered when I
read about it a long time ago. On that site they said that it was only
in the second World War that a pontoon bridge longer than that was
built. Back then they had the technology but they didn't have carbide,
Not even HSS.
John
john
Gunner wrote:
If you ever got to West Point there is a couple links of the chain that
was stretched across the Hudson below West Point during the
Revolutionary war. It wasn't a bridge but it was done back around the
year 1776 to keep the British from coming up the Hudson.
John
John
I was refering to US military engineering but you are right you can even
go back further than the Romans. Babylonia ( Iraq) was building even
before the Romans or Greeks. I picked up a book the other week on
ancient buildings of the world. Those old building were something to
look at. Search Palmyra, Syria, Leptis Magna, or just look at the
ancient construction in Egypt. Comparing the tools that they had to work
with to what modern day engineers use, they did a lot more with a lot
less.
John
Martin H. Eastburn
oh yea and they are Army. Cool maps by fine detail. Folio size.
Martin
Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
TSRA, Life; NRA LOH & Endowment Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
http://lufkinced.com/
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Martin H. Eastburn
from before and during that time. Have some in the shop.
Might be sketchy in WWI but WWII easy.
Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
TSRA, Life; NRA LOH & Endowment Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
http://lufkinced.com/
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
John
yup, HSS was developed in England in the late 1800's after the US
Civil War.
before that most machining was done with carbon steel. High carbon
content like a file would cut but not hold an edge. A couple hundred
carbide brazed tools or insert tools during that time would have made
you a billionaire.
John
Rex
> http://www.michaelyon-online.com/wp/bless-the-beasts-and-children.htm
Powerful site - thanks
Gunner
>Louis Ohland wrote:
>> http://www.michaelyon-online.com/wp/bless-the-beasts-and-children.htm
>
I wonder if Iggy still thinks the US is the Bad People
Gunner
>Powerful site - thanks
>
>> Are these the "less radical" types that you want us to hand things over
>> to? Staying until the Iraqis can sort this out is the right thing to do.
>>
>> The "1920 Revolutionary Brigades" are popping up in the news. You might
>> want to look them up. The challenge of finding Iraq organizations is
>> what will they do when we pop smoke?
>>
>> Perhaps all the inter mural fighting will get them to a point where
>> they want to just get on with life. Might be too early to tell.
>>
>> I study the human condition.
>> http://www.gilanet.com/ohlandl/catalog/collection.html
>>
>> Where is your collection?
>>
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Ignoramus23816
> On Fri, 06 Jul 2007 16:34:12 GMT, Rex <r...@txol.net> wrote:
>
>>Louis Ohland wrote:
>>> http://www.michaelyon-online.com/wp/bless-the-beasts-and-children.htm
>>
>
> I wonder if Iggy still thinks the US is the Bad People
I have not read that link, I am sick today, but yes, I cannot see much
positive -- in motives or execution -- of the Iraq invasion. Motives
were ulterior and execution was poor in many respects.
I did not hold such an opinion regarding, for example, invasion of
Afghanistan, so your characterization of me is false.
i
pyotr filipivich
Gunner <gun...@lightspeed.net> wrote on Tue, 03 Jul 2007 07:20:19 GMT in
rec.crafts.metalworking :
>
>><big sigh>
>
>
>When political adversity prevents the Berlin Mode of Pacification..its
>to be expected.
>
>Bridge dropping will have one of two results long term. Give the US and
>the Coallition forces a much tougher row to how..or finally piss off Joe
>Couscous because his kids are going hungry and the average Haj will rise
>up and stomp the insurgents into the clay.
What gets the average Iraqi to turn in the terrorists is when
someone in his family is killed. Considering that in that part of the
world, 3rd cousins are still "family" ... oops.
tschus
pyotr
--
pyotr filipivich
"Quemadmoeum gladuis neminem occidit, occidentis telum est. "
Lucius Annaeus Seneca, circa 45 AD
(A sword is never a killer, it is a tool in the killer's hands.)
Louis Ohland
infinite things may happen. Ever consider what negative things aren't
happening?
Too_Many_Tools
Actually that seems to be the normal operating procedure...if you want
to get to someone you go after the family.
Thousands of family members have died because their relatives have
helped/worked for the Americans.
Others who were glad to see the Americans come have been jailed
because their relatives were shooting at the Americans....so they
aren't so glad now.
War is never as neat as the history books make it out to be.
TMT