Saving on fuel

[Ignoramus21219]

My company has, and uses, a few vehicles that consume comparatively a
lot of fuel, such as a semi truck, six wheeler 26,000 lbs dump truck etc.

Altogether I spend a bit less than $1k per month on fuel, or near that
amount.

Right now we just go to gas stations. I wonder if there is some way to
buy fuel in bulk, or get a bulk purchase discount, or some such. I
have a 100 gallon fuel tank that I could use if such possibilities are
available.

Has anyone ever looked at that kind of stuff?

i

[Michael A. Terrell]

The first step is to see if you can get a permit to store gasoline.
They may also require a double wall, underground tank and sampling wells
to allow for easy testing for leaks.

[Spehro Pefhany]

Dunno about bulk, but I've seen one-off situations where good fuel is
disposed of for free or at a huge discount- for example, when they
drain the tanks of light aircraft, the fuel cannot readily be re-used
for that purpose, so it can be had cheaply in lots of a few hundred
gallons if you have a place to store it, and can use whatever
diesel-like fuel that small turboprops use (Jet A, I think). It costs
more than regular diesel to buy, but like horse oats, the price goes
down once it's been "processed".


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
sp...@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

[Ignoramus21219]

I would, frankly, prefer to avoid getting permits and registered
tanks. Read this however you wish.

Ideally, I want to find, perhaps, some bulk fuel company that could
come out and fill our trucks on site, so I am not paying for someone's
street corner location.

i

[Carl Ijames]

Wonder if you could buy a used home heating oil delivery truck, that way no
permanent tank to site and permit. Then possibly you could drive to a bulk
distributor and get 1000 gallons on diesel at a time (I assume you need
diesel, not gasoline, given the vehicles you listed) and just pump from
truck to truck as needed. First thing is to look in the yellow pages for
wholesale fuel or oil companies and call them to see what volume you have to
buy to open an account.

-----
Regards,
Carl Ijames
"Ignoramus21219" wrote in message
news:SK2dnZ6WZKNyixHN...@giganews.com...

[David Lesher]

Ignoramus21219 <ignoram...@NOSPAM.21219.invalid> writes:


>I would, frankly, prefer to avoid getting permits and registered
>tanks. Read this however you wish.

>Ideally, I want to find, perhaps, some bulk fuel company that could
>come out and fill our trucks on site, so I am not paying for someone's
>street corner location.

There are certainly companies that do that, as well as gas stations
built for fleets. The latter are often unmanned and take only
cards issued by them.
--
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

[Ignoramus21219]

On 2012-10-27, Carl Ijames <carl.delt...@verizon.net> wrote:
> Wonder if you could buy a used home heating oil delivery truck, that way no
> permanent tank to site and permit. Then possibly you could drive to a bulk
> distributor and get 1000 gallons on diesel at a time (I assume you need
> diesel, not gasoline, given the vehicles you listed) and just pump from
> truck to truck as needed. First thing is to look in the yellow pages for
> wholesale fuel or oil companies and call them to see what volume you have to
> buy to open an account.

I need about equal quantities of diesel and gasoline.

Thanks. I will look into it.

i

[Tim Wescott]

Does Illinois have card-key companies? You should be able to save a few
pennies that way. A card-key company with a good distribution of
stations may be better for you even if they cost a bit more, because
you'll have the convenience of getting fuel when you're on the road as
well as at home.

Check with your accountant, make sure that you're not double-paying any
fuel taxes, or otherwise missing out on tax dodges. I can't tell you
because (a) it'll be specific for your state, and (b) I don't even know
the answer for Oregon.

--
Tim Wescott
Control system and signal processing consulting
www.wescottdesign.com

[Paul K. Dickman]

"Ignoramus21219" <ignoram...@NOSPAM.21219.invalid> wrote in message
news:nsSdnUjVP6yQjhHN...@giganews.com...

This goes back probably a decade and their business model might have
changed.
There is a station at Wolf rd and Lake st, on the other side of the tracks
from you.

I pulled in there once for gas and was turned away. They were a cashless
station and their primary deal was filling up fleet vehicles for the
industrial strip down there. Companies would have an account (presumably at
some sort of discount) and their drivers would get a card and fillup as
needed.

Like I said, this was years ago and things may have changed, but it is worth
looking into.

Paul K. Dickman

[Ignoramus21219]

I will go there, I know the place, just across the street from the
hydraulic hose store and next to Service Spring.

Thanks

i

[Jon Elson]

Ignoramus21219 wrote:

> On 2012-10-27, Carl Ijames <carl.delt...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> Wonder if you could buy a used home heating oil delivery truck, that way
>> no
>> permanent tank to site and permit. Then possibly you could drive to a
>> bulk distributor and get 1000 gallons on diesel at a time (I assume you
>> need diesel, not gasoline, given the vehicles you listed) and just pump
>> from
>> truck to truck as needed. First thing is to look in the yellow pages for
>> wholesale fuel or oil companies and call them to see what volume you have
>> to buy to open an account.

Construction companies have these truck-mounted tanks that can dispense
diesel either with an electric or manual pump. You might be able to pick
up one of these, used. Take it to a bulk fuel outfit and fill the tank,
then leave it at your shop and refuel as needed. Not sure if these things
can be taken out of the truck when full, though. I don't know anything
about them, just know I've seen them at construction sites. Also, you need
to make sure you pay the road use tax for vehicles driven on public roads.
You can save a fair amount having non-road-taxed fuel for forklifts and
such machinery.

Jon

[Ignoramus21219]

On 2012-10-27, Jon Elson <el...@pico-systems.com> wrote:
> Ignoramus21219 wrote:
>
>> On 2012-10-27, Carl Ijames <carl.delt...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>> Wonder if you could buy a used home heating oil delivery truck, that way
>>> no
>>> permanent tank to site and permit. Then possibly you could drive to a
>>> bulk distributor and get 1000 gallons on diesel at a time (I assume you
>>> need diesel, not gasoline, given the vehicles you listed) and just pump
>>> from
>>> truck to truck as needed. First thing is to look in the yellow pages for
>>> wholesale fuel or oil companies and call them to see what volume you have
>>> to buy to open an account.
>
> Construction companies have these truck-mounted tanks that can dispense
> diesel either with an electric or manual pump. You might be able to pick
> up one of these, used.

I already have a great 100 gallon tank that I put on wheels.

> Take it to a bulk fuel outfit and fill the tank, then leave it at
> your shop and refuel as needed. Not sure if these things can be
> taken out of the truck when full, though.

I have forklifts, it is not a problem at all.

> I don't know anything about them, just know I've seen them at
> construction sites. Also, you need to make sure you pay the road
> use tax for vehicles driven on public roads. You can save a fair
> amount having non-road-taxed fuel for forklifts and such machinery.

What I would like to find is some discount place that can, say, fill
that 100 gallon diesel tank if I take it there. I can just send a guy
with a pick-up truck to fill this tank at that site. Hazmat rules do
not apply to it since my tank is under 119 gallons. If I can save,
say, $60 per gallon, it would be 60 dollars saved.

i

[Gunner]

On Sat, 27 Oct 2012 11:59:57 -0500, Ignoramus21219

Are there any "Card Lock Fuels" in your area? They are often
significantly cheaper than normal fuel stations.

You may wish to review the requirements for onsite fuel storage. In
some places..it can be exceptionally onerous.

Gunner

--
"President Obama is not going to lose. He will be re-elected. It is those of
you who have these grand fantasies of that pip-squeak Romney actually having
a chance at winning the election that will have to wake up to reality the
day after the election. I hear there is plenty of room in the rest of the
world where you can reside and establish new citizenship.
Kirby Grant,<KGr...@yahoo.com>

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Sat, 27 Oct 2012 11:59:57 -0500, Ignoramus21219
<ignoram...@NOSPAM.21219.invalid> wrote:

Up here in Ontario there are "key stations" where you go in with your
key-card and fill up with diesel fuel. The price is usually
significantly less than at a normal service station - and less overall
than you could buy bulk for. Having your own bulk tank entails meeting
all kinds of environmental criteria as well - and a 100 gallon tank is
definitely not going to save you anything because of the delivery
fees. There are a lot of trucks out there on the highway that take on
that much at every fillup. Baby Bro used to carry 300 gallons
(Canadian). If you could buy several thousand gallons at a time there
might be some small savings.

[Larry Jaques]

On Sat, 27 Oct 2012 17:47:23 +0000 (UTC), David Lesher
<wb8...@panix.com> wrote:

>Ignoramus21219 <ignoram...@NOSPAM.21219.invalid> writes:
>
>
>>I would, frankly, prefer to avoid getting permits and registered
>>tanks. Read this however you wish.
>
>>Ideally, I want to find, perhaps, some bulk fuel company that could
>>come out and fill our trucks on site, so I am not paying for someone's
>>street corner location.
>
>There are certainly companies that do that, as well as gas stations
>built for fleets. The latter are often unmanned and take only
>cards issued by them.

Yeah, Iggy, google "cardlock" for your neck of the woods. You should
see quite a few. Grants Pass has only 33k people and we have 3
cardlock stations here. That's your best bet for saving money.

--
The ultimate result of shielding men from folly
is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Generally, around here, delivery to on-site equipment is more
expensive than buying from a truck-stop or card-key fuel depot.

PetroCan provides the service up here - along with Petro-pass key
stations.(http://www.petro-canada.ca/en/wholesalefuel/5616.aspx) Lots
of others as well.

Average markup at the pump is about $0.12 per gallon.
Average on-site delivery cost with average of 55 gallons per fillup
is about $0.25 per gallon. It makes a lot of sense for a big operator
who can have 10 or more vehicles fueled up on-site while the driver is
home sleeping and not being paid for the half hour it takes to go to
the station and fuel up the vehicle. Doesn't make a whole lot of
sense for 2 trucks with relatively low fuel requirements

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Cannot carry 1000 gallons of fuel without a proper permit. It varies
state to state and province to province, but MOST areas will not allow
500 gallons of fuel in an unpermitted and un-placcarded vehicle. Most
limit to 300 or 400 gallons - there were states where my brother could
not legally run with all 4 saddle tanks filled.

[Pete C.]

I'm not sure how much you can really save, as far as I know the margins
on the station end are pretty small. You can get untaxed diesel at the
truck stops, but you have to pay the tax anyway to the states you drive
through so the net result isn't really different.

Your best savings route is to make sure the trucks are well maintained,
tires inflated, etc. and drive for economy, i.e. stay a bit below the
speed limit, in the highest gear you can, look far ahead and try to sync
up with traffic lights to avoid stopping and all the fuel to get back up
to speed etc. and of course don't use a bigger vehicle than you need to.
Figure the cost per mile for each vehicle so you know which is optimum
since it isn't necessarily the smallest one though it usually is.

[Pete C.]

I'm really suspecting that since you aren't really in a position to take
advantage of untaxed off-road diesel like a big construction company is
for backhoes and graders and whatnot, that you will find there isn't
much to be saved and it isn't worth the hassle of transfilling from
small site tanks to save $10.

[Pete C.]

Those key stations are untaxed diesel for semis that still have to pay
the fuel taxes on a state by state basis based on the miles logged in
each state I believe. The net price I don't believe is much different
from other stations.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Sat, 27 Oct 2012 12:50:33 -0500, Ignoramus21219
<ignoram...@NOSPAM.21219.invalid> wrote:

Then you DEFINITELY do not want your own tanks. WAY too expensive to
meet the environmental requirements. Delivery costs for small amounts
will be at least equal to the markup at a "wholesale" pump.
Checking GOOGLE, I find ALL KINDS of Key-Lock fuel locations in Canada
and the UK, as well as Europe - but NONE in the USA???????


A wholesale fleet fuel card that will save you something like 3% is
the only AMERICAN solution I could come up with. Check your local
Exxon/Mobil or Shell distributor for more information (try RS Fuels
for Shell in the greater Chicago area)

[Pete C.]

I've seen the unmanned key-lock stations in the US, not sure if/how they
differ from those elsewhere. Either way there isn't a lot of money to be
saved unless you are a big fuel consumer. I suspect with Iggy's fuel
consumption the savings might pay for the annual holiday party and not
much more.

[Pete C.]

Not sure on permits, I believe you would be ok as long as you have your
hazmat endorsement and display the proper placcards.

[dpb]

On 10/27/2012 11:59 AM, Ignoramus21219 wrote:
> My company has, and uses, a few vehicles that consume comparatively a
> lot of fuel, such as a semi truck, six wheeler 26,000 lbs dump truck etc.
>
> Altogether I spend a bit less than $1k per month on fuel, or near that
> amount.

Wish I could say that--takes about $500 just to fill the tractor
once...and that's w/o the road tax. :(

> Right now we just go to gas stations. I wonder if there is some way to
> buy fuel in bulk, or get a bulk purchase discount, or some such. I
> have a 100 gallon fuel tank that I could use if such possibilities are
> available.
>
> Has anyone ever looked at that kind of stuff?

We use a local distributor but the only real difference is that don't
pay road tax on off-road diesel.

More significant would be to save the taxes off the off-road fuel such
as for the forklift, etc., but I suspect their use isn't really that
significant volume.

For no more than that since retail markups average only about 15 cents
nationwide I doubt you'll save much. But, as another says if there is a
local fleet service facility around it can't hurt to check.

--

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Sat, 27 Oct 2012 15:55:54 -0500, "Pete C." <aux3....@snet.net>
wrote:

When I was in Zambia in the 70s I knew a guy who drove a Morris
Minor 1000 around town, and had a 5 ton Morris Diesel lorry (truck) as
well. To drive from Livingstone to Lusaka he put the Minor on the back
of the truck and carried it up - the diesel fuel was cheaper to the
point it was cheaper to drive the big truck than the Minor - but he
hated driving the truck in the city, so took the Minor for scooting
around.

Not a big enough difference in fuel costs here between diesel and
gasoline to make THAT work!!!!!

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Sat, 27 Oct 2012 16:05:34 -0500, "Pete C." <aux3....@snet.net>
wrote:

>

At many your card account determines if you pay tax or not - so you
can buy taxed or untaxed - and the fuel is NOT dyed, so it is legal
for on-road use.

[Gunner]

On Sat, 27 Oct 2012 14:09:12 -0500, Jon Elson <el...@pico-systems.com>
wrote:

Every farmer and construction and oil company around here has those
tanks in the back of their pickup trucks

And no...they really cant be removed easily once they are bolted in.
Nor should they be.

Iggy should just flog a $500 pickup for dump runs and to carry the
fuel tank(s).

Unless he can find a "service truck" really really cheap.

Something along the lines of :

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/FORD-F550-DIESEL-4X4-FUEL-LUBE-UTILITY-SERVICE-MECHANICS-TRUCK-AIR-COMPRESSOR-/251172412080

They are indeed out there. A truck with bins on the sides, fuel tanks
and hoses etc. Id be surprised if he couldnt find one at an auction
as they are of limited use to the general public and since
construction has died....they should be out there fairly cheaply.

[Brian Lawson]

Hey Clare,

Down here in SW Ontario, I use a close-by Petro-Can Card Lock where
they have 4 diesel pumps and a diesel "Farm Dye" pump, and two 87
octane gasoline pumps. I get billed once a month, and the price per
litre varies widely over any month based on the days price, but is
always at least 5 cents per litre less than the local gas stations.
And it is "open" 24/7, which is a biggy to me.

I drive anywhere from 30,000 to 50,000 KM per year, so that 5 cents
helps quite a bit.

Take care.

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

A friend with a Diesel Toyota Surf (Japanese market right hand drive
Forerunner) buys most of his diesel from a co-op card lock - about 7
to 9 cents less than the "retail" pumps in town.

[Ignoramus21219]

On 2012-10-27, Paul K. Dickman <pkdi...@ameritech.net> wrote:
>

> "Ignoramus21219" <ignoram...@NOSPAM.21219.invalid> wrote in message
> news:nsSdnUjVP6yQjhHN...@giganews.com...
>> My company has, and uses, a few vehicles that consume comparatively a
>> lot of fuel, such as a semi truck, six wheeler 26,000 lbs dump truck etc.
>>
>> Altogether I spend a bit less than $1k per month on fuel, or near that
>> amount.
>>
>> Right now we just go to gas stations. I wonder if there is some way to
>> buy fuel in bulk, or get a bulk purchase discount, or some such. I
>> have a 100 gallon fuel tank that I could use if such possibilities are
>> available.
>>
>> Has anyone ever looked at that kind of stuff?
>>
>> i
>
> This goes back probably a decade and their business model might have
> changed. There is a station at Wolf rd and Lake st, on the other
> side of the tracks from you.

I went there today, it is a regular Marathon gas station.

[Ignoramus21219]

It feels like tax cheating of the kind where it is possible to get
caught. I am very cautious about that sort of thing.

i

[Ignoramus21219]

Under 120 gallons does not require any placarding.

i

[Ignoramus21219]

On 2012-10-27, Pete C. <aux3....@snet.net> wrote:

> I've seen the unmanned key-lock stations in the US, not sure if/how they
> differ from those elsewhere. Either way there isn't a lot of money to be
> saved unless you are a big fuel consumer. I suspect with Iggy's fuel
> consumption the savings might pay for the annual holiday party and not
> much more.

We have a party about every couple of months.

i

[Ignoramus21219]

I bought a couple of trucks recently. A Chevy 3500 truck with snow
plow for $400 and a big International flatbed for $500.

The above mentioned snow plow sold for $400, and the engine from the
International for $1700.

We cut up the rest for scrap.

And I do not need any more vehicles, registrations are expensive.

i

[Steve W.]

Ignoramus21219 wrote:
> On 2012-10-27, Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Ignoramus21219 wrote:
>>> My company has, and uses, a few vehicles that consume comparatively a
>>> lot of fuel, such as a semi truck, six wheeler 26,000 lbs dump truck etc.
>>>
>>> Altogether I spend a bit less than $1k per month on fuel, or near that
>>> amount.
>>>
>>> Right now we just go to gas stations. I wonder if there is some way to
>>> buy fuel in bulk, or get a bulk purchase discount, or some such. I
>>> have a 100 gallon fuel tank that I could use if such possibilities are
>>> available.
>>>
>>> Has anyone ever looked at that kind of stuff?
>>
>> The first step is to see if you can get a permit to store gasoline.
>> They may also require a double wall, underground tank and sampling wells
>> to allow for easy testing for leaks.
>
> I would, frankly, prefer to avoid getting permits and registered
> tanks. Read this however you wish.
>
> Ideally, I want to find, perhaps, some bulk fuel company that could
> come out and fill our trucks on site, so I am not paying for someone's
> street corner location.
>
> i

Good luck. Unless you are buying 2-3000 gallons at a time you won't get
any discounts. You also won't find people to deliver fuel and fill the
vehicles directly. Federal law prohibits it.

As for the "I would, frankly, prefer to avoid getting permits and
registered tanks. Read this however you wish." part. Do it legally or
pay the price if you get caught. Fines for illegal storage start around
$10.000 and can go up VERY fast.

A local shop got nailed for using an old farm tank for storage of 250
gallons of diesel for his tow vehicles. DEC got wind of it, brought in a
crews and combed the place over. The fine for the fuel was 30K and the
rest of the stuff (employees without comp. storage of used oil in
illegal containers plus a couple others ended up with a $430,000 fine
+45 days in jail!

--
Steve W.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

It is not cheating if you are registered to buy the gas, keep accurate
records, and pay the applicable road taxes. Some carriers, for
example, buy all their gas in one state, but do commercial carrying in
4 states. They need to log all their miles in each state, and submit
the applicable tax to each state they drive in.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Sat, 27 Oct 2012 23:34:18 -0400, "Steve W." <csr...@NOTyahoo.com>
wrote:

>Ignoramus21219 wrote:
>> On 2012-10-27, Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>> Ignoramus21219 wrote:
>>>> My company has, and uses, a few vehicles that consume comparatively a
>>>> lot of fuel, such as a semi truck, six wheeler 26,000 lbs dump truck etc.
>>>>
>>>> Altogether I spend a bit less than $1k per month on fuel, or near that
>>>> amount.
>>>>
>>>> Right now we just go to gas stations. I wonder if there is some way to
>>>> buy fuel in bulk, or get a bulk purchase discount, or some such. I
>>>> have a 100 gallon fuel tank that I could use if such possibilities are
>>>> available.
>>>>
>>>> Has anyone ever looked at that kind of stuff?
>>>
>>> The first step is to see if you can get a permit to store gasoline.
>>> They may also require a double wall, underground tank and sampling wells
>>> to allow for easy testing for leaks.
>>
>> I would, frankly, prefer to avoid getting permits and registered
>> tanks. Read this however you wish.
>>
>> Ideally, I want to find, perhaps, some bulk fuel company that could
>> come out and fill our trucks on site, so I am not paying for someone's
>> street corner location.
>>
>> i
>
>
>Good luck. Unless you are buying 2-3000 gallons at a time you won't get
>any discounts. You also won't find people to deliver fuel and fill the
>vehicles directly. Federal law prohibits it.

No it does not. It is done by MANY companies

>
>As for the "I would, frankly, prefer to avoid getting permits and
>registered tanks. Read this however you wish." part. Do it legally or
>pay the price if you get caught. Fines for illegal storage start around
>$10.000 and can go up VERY fast.

Correct

>
>A local shop got nailed for using an old farm tank for storage of 250
>gallons of diesel for his tow vehicles. DEC got wind of it, brought in a
>crews and combed the place over. The fine for the fuel was 30K and the
>rest of the stuff (employees without comp. storage of used oil in
>illegal containers plus a couple others ended up with a $430,000 fine
>+45 days in jail!

OUCH!!!!

[Bruce L. Bergman (munged human readable)]

On Sat, 27 Oct 2012 11:59:57 -0500, Ignoramus21219

<ignoram...@NOSPAM.21219.invalid> wrote:

>My company has, and uses, a few vehicles that consume comparatively a
>lot of fuel, such as a semi truck, six wheeler 26,000 lbs dump truck etc.
>
>Altogether I spend a bit less than $1k per month on fuel, or near that
>amount.
>
>Right now we just go to gas stations. I wonder if there is some way to
>buy fuel in bulk, or get a bulk purchase discount, or some such. I
>have a 100 gallon fuel tank that I could use if such possibilities are
>available.
>
>Has anyone ever looked at that kind of stuff?

The best way to do it is look at www.GasBuddy.com and find the
cheapest fuel prices in your immediate area, and shop there. That can
save you 25c to 50c a gallon, which ain't chicken feed.

You have the truck with the auxiliary tank in the bed, that means you
can go a long time between fill-ups, or come back and transfer the
fuel into the Semi a little at a time.

Or bank a few 5-gallon Blitz Cans of each flavor for emergency
supplies, and keep them in a "Flammable Liquids" storage locker. The
Fire Department should allow that in an Industrial environment.

The "Fuel Delivery" services that come in with a tanker and fill up
all the trucks at your yard overnight is NOT cheaper, you pay a good
chunk more for the convenience - Not to mention that you don't do
nearly enough driving to make it worth their time, they usually have
200 trucks in a yard they fill.

But compared to every employee with a truck losing a half-hour of
productive time every time they go to a gas station - and if there's
three guys in that crew you have three times 0.5 of Lost Time, the
added fee for fuel delivery is a bargain.

GTE had their own underground fuel tanks and pump AND a small Fuel
Tanker (2,000 gallon range) at each yard - the Garage assigned someone
to go around and fill all the trucks every night that had a cone out
in the back, and they could check the oil and tires at the same time -
and if the local underground fuel tank at the yard ran dry they could
go fill it up elsewhere and bring a supply back... You don't have
that scale, or need that expense.

What might work out for you is to get a few small above ground tanks
for Diesel and Regular Unleaded. Either the double-wall and insulated
"Fire-Guard" or the double-wall and concrete encased "Con-Vault" -
but the City/County permitting is usually a nightmare.

And don't even THINK about going with underground fuel tanks, even if
you go the full legal double-wall tank with the monitors and
everything - besides the nightmare of getting the permits, your
Liability Insurance carrier will have kittens.

If the tank is on a small trailer that falls under the DOT rules and
not the local fire codes... Make two - one Unleaded and one Diesel,
with little Tuthill dispensing pumps on them.

Just keep your mouth shut, and build a little fenced in enclosure
around back for parking the two little fuel trailers - away from the
building, away from any trees or power lines, and with clearance from
the rear fence. A diked one-piece reinforced concrete slab with an
integral cast 6" high curb all around (and a ramp to back the trailers
in) to contain spills and a 2" drain valve at the lower end to let
the water flow out manually after it rains or snows - but hold the
fuel if something leaks.

Put privacy slats in the 8' fence around it, and a big extinguisher
inside the gate - and another big one at the back door of the shop
where you can get to it. And no power wiring in or near the trailer
enclosure that isn't Explosion-proof with the conduit seals and Class
1 Division 1 light fixtures and outlets for the battery chargers.

The trailer fuel pumps should be 12V and have a deep-cycle RV battery
on board each trailer. Heck, the amount you'll use them, put a large
(regulated!) solar panel on top of each trailer, that should be
enough juice to keep the batteries charged and topped off without any
120V power necessary at all.

Either way, when you go fill up your truck at the local Cheap Gas
station you also fill the 100-gallon transfer tank in the bed, and
then you transfer that to the appropriate on-site small tank as needed
- after adding a dose of Stabilizer. That will cover the usage of
the forklifts and generators and such - and give you a supply for when
the Apocalypse arrives.

--<< Bruce >>--

[Karl Townsend]

sorry, late to the party.

I have a couple 1000 gal tanks. I have fuel delivered. Savings is
about $0.30 per gallon. Plus, I buy up when the price is down - will
top the tanks next week - to save even more.

I think most farmers do the same.

karl

[Pete C.]

This is off-road diesel? If so that won't help Iggy for his on-road use.

[Pete C.]

Yes, but what was in question was a semi with four fuel tanks at 75-100
gal each totaling 300-400 gal. It would seem that you would need to
placard the truck and have your hazmat endorsement for such a long range
truck. I'm not sure on this since most semis have over 120 gal of fuel
tanks as standard equipment, presumably there is an exemption somewhere
in the regs that covers this.

[Steve W.]

Yep. Many farms do. BUT the rules for farm tanks in an ag zone are
different then the fuel storage rules for a commercial property.
That is what gets people in trouble. I know in NY now they are getting
VERY particular about all the things related to fuel and storage of it.
Lot's of fines for tanks that were legal just a couple years ago.

--
Steve W.

[Steve W.]

HMM, Somewhere in cyberspace is the rest of that comment. That should
have read:

The DIY approach of hauling in you're own fuel for on-site storage
without the proper tanks and permits
can be very hazardous to your wallet. Most state and "federal law
prohibits it"

>
> No it does not. It is done by MANY companies
>> As for the "I would, frankly, prefer to avoid getting permits and
>> registered tanks. Read this however you wish." part. Do it legally or
>> pay the price if you get caught. Fines for illegal storage start around
>> $10.000 and can go up VERY fast.
> Correct
>> A local shop got nailed for using an old farm tank for storage of 250
>> gallons of diesel for his tow vehicles. DEC got wind of it, brought in a
>> crews and combed the place over. The fine for the fuel was 30K and the
>> rest of the stuff (employees without comp. storage of used oil in
>> illegal containers plus a couple others ended up with a $430,000 fine
>> +45 days in jail!
> OUCH!!!!

Yeah this state is getting to be VERY interesting.

--
Steve W.

[Steve W.]

Ignoramus21219 wrote:
>
> I bought a couple of trucks recently. A Chevy 3500 truck with snow
> plow for $400 and a big International flatbed for $500.
>
> The above mentioned snow plow sold for $400, and the engine from the
> International for $1700.
>
> We cut up the rest for scrap.
>
> And I do not need any more vehicles, registrations are expensive.
>
> i

Be cautious about selling vehicle parts. Not sure what the laws there
are but in NY you can get hit for not being a registered vehicle
dismantler if you buy a vehicle and then part it out without registering
it in your name first.

There was a news item a couple months ago about someone down toward the
southern tier being hit with this because he was stripping
cars for scrap, but selling off the good parts online. He got hit with a
fine plus something to do with selling across state lines without
authority.

--
Steve W.

[Ignoramus13803]

Even for a 100 gallon tank on wheels?

> A local shop got nailed for using an old farm tank for storage of 250
> gallons of diesel for his tow vehicles. DEC got wind of it, brought in a
> crews and combed the place over. The fine for the fuel was 30K and the
> rest of the stuff (employees without comp. storage of used oil in
> illegal containers plus a couple others ended up with a $430,000 fine
> +45 days in jail!
>

Scary, and certainly, I do not want to risk that sort of thing.

i

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Sun, 28 Oct 2012 07:59:47 -0500, "Pete C." <aux3....@snet.net>
wrote:

>

You can only carry 120 gallons in a non-frame-mounted tank - and each
frame mounted tank is limitted to 120 gallons -or something like that.
Non-Frame-Mounted tanks are considered payload - frame mounted tanks
are considered operational fuel.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Sun, 28 Oct 2012 09:23:50 -0400, "Steve W." <csr...@NOTyahoo.com>
wrote:

In AG zones as well.

[Pete C.]

So something like a 500 gal tank mounted to the frame behind the cab on
a LWB truck in addition to the regular saddle tanks would be good to go?
900 gal of operational fuel?

[Ignoramus13803]

Yes, those tanks that are carrying fuel used by the semi, are
exempted.

i

[Ignoramus13803]

On 2012-10-28, Steve W. <csr...@NOTyahoo.com> wrote:

> Ignoramus21219 wrote:
>>
>> I bought a couple of trucks recently. A Chevy 3500 truck with snow
>> plow for $400 and a big International flatbed for $500.
>>
>> The above mentioned snow plow sold for $400, and the engine from the
>> International for $1700.
>>
>> We cut up the rest for scrap.
>>
>> And I do not need any more vehicles, registrations are expensive.
>>
>

> Be cautious about selling vehicle parts. Not sure what the laws there
> are but in NY you can get hit for not being a registered vehicle
> dismantler if you buy a vehicle and then part it out without registering
> it in your name first.
>
> There was a news item a couple months ago about someone down toward the
> southern tier being hit with this because he was stripping
> cars for scrap, but selling off the good parts online. He got hit with a
> fine plus something to do with selling across state lines without
> authority.
>

I can do five per year without a license.

i

[Gunner]

Then keep your diesel and gas in milk jugs.

[Gunner]

What..you sit around eating borscht and drinking vodka and singing the
International?

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Sun, 28 Oct 2012 10:40:11 -0500, "Pete C." <aux3....@snet.net>

Nope - 9 100 gallon tanks would be a sefer bet - but you ARE limitted
to a maximum of something like 400 gallons total - and less in some
states/provinces. In any case, there is a maximum size for any single
tank - I believe it is 100 gallons Canadian - 120 US, os something
like 440 liters.

[ATP]

"Ignoramus21219" <ignoram...@NOSPAM.21219.invalid> wrote in message
news:nsSdnUjVP6yQjhHN...@giganews.com...

> My company has, and uses, a few vehicles that consume comparatively a
> lot of fuel, such as a semi truck, six wheeler 26,000 lbs dump truck etc.
>
> Altogether I spend a bit less than $1k per month on fuel, or near that
> amount.
>
> Right now we just go to gas stations. I wonder if there is some way to
> buy fuel in bulk, or get a bulk purchase discount, or some such. I
> have a 100 gallon fuel tank that I could use if such possibilities are
> available.
>
> Has anyone ever looked at that kind of stuff?
>

> i

You can only legally use the cubes for diesel. 100 gallons is not that much,
where are you going to get a discount of more than a few cents per gallon on
road legal diesel?

[Jim Wilkins]

"Ignoramus21219" <ignoram...@NOSPAM.21219.invalid> wrote in
message
>

> Ideally, I want to find, perhaps, some bulk fuel company that could
> come out and fill our trucks on site, so I am not paying for
> someone's
> street corner location.
>
> i

Construction companies have their heavy equipment refuelled on-site.
That's one of the reasons why they line it up neatly at the end of the
day.

[Steve W.]

In this area most also own the fuel truck. Plus many use off road
diesel. NOT something you want in a road truck.

Back when the original change was made from road fuel having the dye to
off road being dyed there were a LOT of folks (myself included) who went
through the complete fuel system to eliminate all of the dye (which is
more than just a color, there are a couple additives that make it VERY
easy to trace off road fuel use, one being a UV additive that fluoresces
and another being a chemical tag that shows up with a dip stick test)

You want to be REAL careful if you have both fuels stored at a location.
It takes less than 1 quart of off road fuel to screw up 100 gallons of
road fuel.

--
Steve W.

[dpb]

On 10/29/2012 12:16 PM, Steve W. wrote:
...

> Back when the original change was made from road fuel having the dye to
> off road being dyed there were a LOT of folks (myself included) who went
> through the complete fuel system to eliminate all of the dye (which is
> more than just a color, there are a couple additives that make it VERY
> easy to trace off road fuel use, one being a UV additive that fluoresces
> and another being a chemical tag that shows up with a dip stick test)
>
> You want to be REAL careful if you have both fuels stored at a location.
> It takes less than 1 quart of off road fuel to screw up 100 gallons of
> road fuel.

My take--"nonsense"

While it might be possible to chemically detect, certainly any
enforcement will first simply be a sight check of color in the fuel tank
and it'll take a heckuva a lot more than that to be colored enough to be
visible.

And, certainly, if there is only a trace and a reasonable explanation of
what the reason for that is there will be no penalty enforced even if
somehow it were ever questioned.

Other than the dye, there's no difference in fuel characteristics.

--

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Mon, 29 Oct 2012 13:16:23 -0400, "Steve W." <csr...@NOTyahoo.com>
wrote:

If you register properly (in many jurisdictions) you can buy tax
free road fuel that is not marked. You need to keep precise records of
what fuel goes where to pay the government the proper taxes.

In some states/provinces it works the other way - you pay tax on
everything and get a refund for what you have carefully recorded as
off-road use.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

The die has tracers that can detect if there HAS BEEN off-road fuel
in the tank recently - not sure if there is a test strip to test with,
or if it is a lab job - but they can charge you for running untaxed
fuel even if your tank is refilled with taxed fuel. Just checked -
apparently test strips can detect as little as 0 .3% untaxed fuel in a
tank.

[Steve W.]

I have SEEN the demonstration and done the test myself. The chemicals
used disperse out and react with the fuel itself. That creates a
chemical that is easily detectable. The UV additive also is VERY easy to
spot, a small flashlight with UV output is all that is needed.


As for the penalty. Using untaxed fuel in a road truck will get you a
nice visit with the states and feds. They automatically assume you have
been using illegal fuel ALL the time. That nets you a fine based on the
amount of fuel you have, how it is stored and a few other items.

2006 - http://www.worldsweeper.com/Legal/DyedFuelFine.html
2008 -
http://www.revenue.state.il.us/AboutIdor/PressReleases/PR-08-27-2008.pdf
2005 - http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=103625


Current fine amounts in Illinois:

What are the violations for not properly using dyed diesel?

Knowingly selling or attempting to sell dyed diesel fuel for
highway use:
First Offense: $1,000 fine Class A misdemeanor.
Second or Subsequent Offense: $5,000 fine Class 4 felony.
Knowingly sell, store, or transport dyed diesel fuel without the
required notices:
First Offense: $500 fine
Second or Subsequent Offense: $1,000 fine
Having dyed diesel in the fuel tanks attached to a motor vehicle
required to be registered for highway purposes:
First Offense: $1,000 fine, Class A misdemeanor
Second or Subsequent Offense: $5,000 Class 4 felony
Knowingly selling or attempting to sell dyed diesel fuel for
highway use or for use in a recreational-type watercraft:
First Offense: $1,000 fine Class 4 felony.
Second or Subsequent Offense: $5,000 fine Class 2 felony.
Knowingly possessing dyed diesel for use in recreational-type
watercraft:
First Offense: $1,000 fine Class A misdemeanor
Second or Subsequent Offense: $5,000 Class 2 felony

--
Steve W.

[dpb]

On 10/29/2012 4:54 PM, Steve W. wrote:
...

It's possible, yes. Whether it's likely is another event altogether
unless one is trying to get by w/ something one shouldn't be.

We have both because while the trucks are farm use they still are
required to pay road tax because they are used on the roads.

IOW, I wouldn't worry about it much other than do educate any employees
of which vehicles and which bulk tanks are which...

--

[Ignoramus20034]

On 2012-10-28, Gunner <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 27 Oct 2012 20:33:28 -0500, Ignoramus21219
><ignoram...@NOSPAM.21219.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On 2012-10-27, Pete C. <aux3....@snet.net> wrote:
>>> I've seen the unmanned key-lock stations in the US, not sure if/how they
>>> differ from those elsewhere. Either way there isn't a lot of money to be
>>> saved unless you are a big fuel consumer. I suspect with Iggy's fuel
>>> consumption the savings might pay for the annual holiday party and not
>>> much more.
>>
>>We have a party about every couple of months.
>>
>>i
>
> What..you sit around eating borscht and drinking vodka and singing the
> International?
>
>

Close, grilled chicken and beer and laughing a lot.

i

[John B.]

On Sat, 10 Nov 2012 08:13:09 -0600, Ignoramus20034

Good one Iggy.
--
Cheers,
John B.

[Ignoramus20034]

You see, I do not mind vodka, and getting drunk, but we cannot drink
that at the warehouse, due to the need to drive home. Only a bit of
beer.

i