Scrap value of large electric motors, vs. small motors

[Ignoramus23622]

I have several electric motor-like things, they are called
motor-generators. It is a motor paired to a generator.

For scrap purposes, they are both electric motors. They are about 100
HP in size.

I bought them as complete units and I expect that I will be scrapping
them and selling off contactors and such.

When I look up prices of "scrap electric motors", I only see prices
published for fractional horsepower motors.

My question is, are large motors valued at a higher price per lb, or
lower, than fractional motors.

The total weight of these devices is 14,000 lbs, so I better do a good
research before selecting a particular scrap yard.

i

[Richard]

If it works (?) it's worth a hell of a lot more than scrap value!

[Ignoramus23622]

Who needs a 100 HP motor generator making 417 Hertz?

i

[Pete C.]

Scrap value tomorrow vs. as-is value in 18 months of searching for the
right buyer and tripping over 14,000# of it daily in the warehouse...

[Richard]

LOL, ok, point taken.

I just hate to see good machinery scrapped.

[Ignoramus23622]

And not finding any buyer in the end.

There is a lot of fun components inside, four size 3 motor starters in
each units, two large circuit breakers per unit etc.

I will bring them in on the semi in a few days.

i

[Jon Elson]

Ignoramus23622 wrote:

> I have several electric motor-like things, they are called
> motor-generators. It is a motor paired to a generator.
>

If this has 400 Hz output, the aviation folks might be interested,
although 100 Hp is probably more than they need. There are places
that run really heavy 400-Hz loads, however, such as where NASA
runs air force radar dishes for tracking radars and telemetry.

Just a thought,

Jon

[Howard Beal]

"Ignoramus23622" <ignoram...@NOSPAM.23622.invalid> wrote in message
news:5pCdnfWjWJZxKvrN...@giganews.com...

> Who needs a 100 HP motor generator making 417 Hertz?
>
> i

The millitary of course, lots of 400hz stuff out there.
Mostly found in aircraft.

Best Regards
Tom.

[Jon Elson]

Ignoramus23622 wrote:


> Who needs a 100 HP motor generator making 417 Hertz?

Ah, yes, I thought they might be of this flavor.
Well, see my previous post. not sure if NASA or the like
can use 417 Hz output, that was probably for IBM mainframes.
But, I worked at NASA Wallops Station for a couple years, and
they had several Air Force radar dishes (in the 60-foot class)
that were on hydraulic servo mounts. They ran off 400 Hz
power, and even the hydraulic pumps ran off 400 Hz motors, so
there was a colossal motor-alternator set for the system.
There are probably other outfits that test aircraft stuff
like fuel pumps and whatnot that could use serious M-G
sets like this.

Jon

[Ignoramus23622]

NASA would not buy from me, that's the problem.

Based on my most brutally honest evaluation, these units, while
almost new, have no resale potential.

They do, however, have relatively large potential to be parted out and
scrapped. Almost new size 3 contactors, breakers, copper, motors etc.

i

[Ignoramus23622]

On 2012-09-30, Jon Elson <el...@pico-systems.com> wrote:

Well, I could try to put them on ebay for a couple of weeks.

I honestly do not expect that to work out, but what the hell.

i

[Cydrome Leader]

Ignoramus23622 <ignoram...@nospam.23622.invalid> wrote:
> On 2012-09-30, Jon Elson <el...@pico-systems.com> wrote:
>> Ignoramus23622 wrote:
>>
>>> I have several electric motor-like things, they are called
>>> motor-generators. It is a motor paired to a generator.
>>>
>> If this has 400 Hz output, the aviation folks might be interested,
>> although 100 Hp is probably more than they need. There are places
>> that run really heavy 400-Hz loads, however, such as where NASA
>> runs air force radar dishes for tracking radars and telemetry.
>>
>> Just a thought,
>>
>> Jon
>
> NASA would not buy from me, that's the problem.

increase your prices 50x and maybe the will.

[Ignoramus23622]

And I should also rename my compeny to DynoCrap Inc

i

[Martin Eastburn]

Before you scrap these beauties - consider they
might be worth something to you.

I use a rotary to generate 3 phase.

Simple 220 AC on the motor side and take 3-pase off the
generator side.

What are the names on them - any specs ?

100 HP is very large and 14K pounds is a few pallets!

Martin

On 9/29/2012 8:36 PM, Ignoramus23622 wrote:

[Ignoramus23622]

On 2012-09-30, Martin Eastburn <lion...@consolidated.net> wrote:
> Before you scrap these beauties - consider they
> might be worth something to you.
>
> I use a rotary to generate 3 phase.
>
> Simple 220 AC on the motor side and take 3-pase off the
> generator side.
>
> What are the names on them - any specs ?
>
> 100 HP is very large and 14K pounds is a few pallets!

Kato motor-generators, 60 Hz in, 417 Hz out, 100 HP motor, 75 kVa
generator IIRC. Each weighs 2,800 lbs.

i

[Tim Wescott]

Not to mention that if it's an AC motor and a DC generator, that's a
component that's being replaced more and more by electronics.

--
My liberal friends think I'm a conservative kook.
My conservative friends think I'm a liberal kook.
Why am I not happy that they have found common ground?

Tim Wescott, Communications, Control, Circuits & Software
http://www.wescottdesign.com

[Larry Jaques]

Someone making a hybrid electric bus?

Find an avionics client?

I got a grand last night from the golf cart my neighbor gave to me. I
had lots of expenses in repair, though: $4.95 for a 10" battery cable.

Recycling is good!

--
Never trouble another for what you can do for yourself.
-- Thomas Jefferson

[Michael A. Terrell]

Did you ever see any Microdyne or L3-Com telemetry receivers?

[Michael A. Terrell]

That depends on how you scrap them. As a whole unit, or separate the
copper & steel. An air chisel will cut the windings so they can be
removed.

[Ignoramus6882]

I was planning to scrap the motors (stripped of electrical controls
and enclosures) as a whole.

i

[Ignoramus6882]

Awesome! This kind of stuff is what makes life fun!

In this case, I would need to find a user of an old IBM mainframe who
needs a 415 Hz power supply. Which is not something that I hold my
breath for.

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/login.jsp?tp=&arnumber=44248&url=http%3A%2F%2Fieeexplore.ieee.org%2Fiel1%2F28%2F1682%2F00044248.pdf%3Farnumber%3D44248


i

[dpb]

On 9/29/2012 10:32 PM, Ignoramus23622 wrote:
...

> ... these units, while almost new, have no resale potential.
>
...

Just out of curiosity, where did they come from/what was their use/why
scrapped?

--

[Ignoramus6882]

I believe that they were powering old IBM mainframes.

i

[dca...@krl.org]

On Sep 30, 12:05 am, Ignoramus23622 <ignoramus23...@NOSPAM.

23622.invalid> wrote:

> > What are the names on them - any specs ?
>

>

> Kato motor-generators, 60 Hz in, 417 Hz out, 100 HP motor, 75 kVa
> generator IIRC. Each weighs 2,800 lbs.

> >> For scrap purposes, they are both electric motors. They are about 100
> >> HP in size.
>

>

Since they are made by Kato, I doubt there is any way to separate the
motor part from the generator part. If that is possible, you might be
able to sell the motor part and scrap the generator part.

Many years ago I toured a plant that used similar motor generators to
power Florescent lighting. They claimed that by using a higher
frequency the lamps were more efficient. But I think those days are
gone as the electronic ballasts essentially do just that. But you
might check with one or more of the folks that make ballasts for
florescent lighting.

As for the price of large motors for scrap. Call three scrap yards
and see what they will pay.


Dan

[Ignoramus6882]

On 2012-09-30, dca...@krl.org <dca...@krl.org> wrote:
> On Sep 30, 12:05?am, Ignoramus23622 <ignoramus23...@NOSPAM.

>> > What are the names on them - any specs ?
>> Kato motor-generators, 60 Hz in, 417 Hz out, 100 HP motor, 75 kVa

415 Hz, sorry

>> generator IIRC. Each weighs 2,800 lbs.
>
>> >> For scrap purposes, they are both electric motors. They are about 100
>> >> HP in size.
>
> Since they are made by Kato, I doubt there is any way to separate the
> motor part from the generator part.

While I will soon know for sure, this is indeed what I expect, that
they are closely coupled.

> If that is possible, you might be able to sell the motor part and
> scrap the generator part.

I am just thinking out loud, but, even if they are closely coupled,
the motor part probably has a SAE bolt pattern, so that it can be used
where other similar SAE motors are used, say to replace a diesel
engine or some such.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/82579021/415-HZ-DESIGN

> Many years ago I toured a plant that used similar motor generators to
> power Florescent lighting. They claimed that by using a higher
> frequency the lamps were more efficient. But I think those days are
> gone as the electronic ballasts essentially do just that. But you
> might check with one or more of the folks that make ballasts for
> florescent lighting.

They are all moving to this newfangled green energy compliant stuff,
doubtfully anyone would want it.

>
> As for the price of large motors for scrap. Call three scrap yards
> and see what they will pay.

Yep, will do indeed.

i

[dpb]

On 9/30/2012 8:49 AM, Ignoramus6882 wrote:
> On 2012-09-30, dpb<no...@non.net> wrote:
...

>> Just out of curiosity, where did they come from/what was their use/why
>> scrapped?

...

> I believe that they were powering old IBM mainframes.

...

Hmmm....I'da thunk those would have been long gone ere now...

--

[dca...@krl.org]

On Sep 30, 11:41 am, Ignoramus6882 <ignoramus6...@NOSPAM.6882.invalid>
wrote:

> > Since they are made by Kato, I doubt there is any way to separate the
> > motor part from the generator part.
>
> While I will soon know for sure, this is indeed what I expect, that
> they are closely coupled.
>

> I am just thinking out loud, but, even if they are closely coupled,
> the motor part probably has a SAE bolt pattern, so that it can be used
> where other similar SAE motors are used, say to replace a diesel
> engine or some such.
>
>

> i

A very long time ago I had a very little to do with a Kato motor
generator. It was DC to AC. As I remember the motor and generator
were all on one shaft. This was for a weight critical application so
maybe the big ones are a lot different.


Dan

[Paul Drahn]

Yup, long gone, but their remains are still in some buildings. The
purpose was several-fold. First, hf is easier to filter to DC in each of
the many, many boxes used to make up the "computer". I saw a 360-195 in
a NASA building in Maryland that was about a city block in size.
Computer took up the ground floor.

The second purpose was to be a UPS, before such things were available.
The flywheel action of all that weight spinning at high speed would be
able to continue to supply power when the commercial power dropped a
cycle or more.

Third, the voltage was constant in spite of commercial power voltage
fluctuations.

My vote is disassemble one to determine the copper value.

Paul

[James Waldby]

New IBM mainframes are still being sold; see following link
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_z9> for some of their
characteristics. Mainframes are used for DB apps where 30GB
datasets are kept in RAM for faster processing, or where
hardware-based cryptography or random numbers are needed,
or where "nondisruptive processor replacement" is useful, etc.
Eg, on a z9 "a technician can replace an entire 'processor
book' (system board) without ending any applications and
without restarting any operating systems."

--
jiw

[Gunner]

On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 22:32:45 -0500, Ignoramus23622
<ignoram...@NOSPAM.23622.invalid> wrote:

>On 2012-09-30, Jon Elson <el...@pico-systems.com> wrote:
>> Ignoramus23622 wrote:
>>
>>> I have several electric motor-like things, they are called
>>> motor-generators. It is a motor paired to a generator.
>>>
>> If this has 400 Hz output, the aviation folks might be interested,
>> although 100 Hp is probably more than they need. There are places
>> that run really heavy 400-Hz loads, however, such as where NASA
>> runs air force radar dishes for tracking radars and telemetry.
>>
>> Just a thought,
>>
>> Jon
>
>NASA would not buy from me, that's the problem.

But..a NASA supplier would buy from you.

They would then take it, recert it..and then sell it to NASA

Gunner

Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends
of every country save their own. Benjamin Disraeli

[Pete C.]

All those same features apply to the "midrange" systems these days.

[dpb]

On 9/30/2012 2:07 PM, James Waldby wrote:
...

> New IBM mainframes are still being sold; see following link
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_z9> for some of their

> characteristics....

Well, doh...

I was speaking of the old power supply systems only--altho on looking I
don't/can't find any hard data on the Z system power requirements at all
other than "they're green" BS stuff on the IBM site.

--

[dpb]

...

> But..a NASA supplier would buy from you.
>
> They would then take it, recert it..and then sell it to NASA

...

If NASA were actually doing much going forward, maybe...at this point
they're pretty much neutered...

--

[Ignoramus6882]

On 2012-09-30, dca...@krl.org <dca...@krl.org> wrote:

> On Sep 30, 11:41?am, Ignoramus6882 <ignoramus6...@NOSPAM.6882.invalid>

I will see, as you guys say, I will take one apart.

However, before that, I will give Kato a call, perhaps they will want
to buy them. Things like that happened before.

i

[Carl Ijames]

On 2012-09-30, Jon Elson <el...@pico-systems.com> wrote:
> Ignoramus23622 wrote:
>
>> I have several electric motor-like things, they are called
>> motor-generators. It is a motor paired to a generator.
>>
> If this has 400 Hz output, the aviation folks might be interested,
> although 100 Hp is probably more than they need. There are places
> that run really heavy 400-Hz loads, however, such as where NASA
> runs air force radar dishes for tracking radars and telemetry.
>
> Just a thought,
>
> Jon

What about the guys who keep vintage WWII aircraft flying? Any chance they
could use one for bench testing and repair on the old avionics? I realize
these are probably bigger than the generators on the planes, but they might
not have anything smaller. Maybe you could donate one to them and get a tax
writeoff equal to the scrap value.

-----
Regards,
Carl Ijames

[Cydrome Leader]

They sure burn power, but no longer needs dynamotors or whatever those
goofy motor-generators are called. three phase 60Hz keeps them happy.

I'm pretty sure some of the CTA trains here in Chicago still have
dynamotors for running the cabin lighting. Some of the railcars must be
hitting 40 years old by now. The trains are powered by 600 volts DC.

[dpb]

On 9/30/2012 6:27 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
> dpb<no...@non.net> wrote:
>> On 9/30/2012 2:07 PM, James Waldby wrote:
>> ...
>>
>>> New IBM mainframes are still being sold; see following link
>>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_z9> for some of their
>>> characteristics....
>>
>> Well, doh...
>>
>> I was speaking of the old power supply systems only--altho on looking I
>> don't/can't find any hard data on the Z system power requirements at all
>> other than "they're green" BS stuff on the IBM site.
>
> They sure burn power, but no longer needs dynamotors or whatever those
> goofy motor-generators are called. three phase 60Hz keeps them happy.

...

I was sure of that (or at least thought I was.. :) ) and I know the
larger server farms use oodles but nothing like the older machines.

I'm so old I'm of the day when we were still using the Philco 2000 w/
the 27 7-track tapes...and it was a (relatively) low-power as was first
transistorized machine introduced in the class...

Never had much occasion on IBM--after Philco were CDC or Cray shops
primarily altho ORNL did have an IBM by time moved to Oak Ridge I had
shifted my focus to embedded systems in a shift from one end of the
computing genre to nearly the other extreme...did a couple of small
tasks for X-10 on the IBM/DEC-20 combo but not enough to do more than
say ran a couple of jobs on them...SAIC had gone VAX and were trying to
do everything in house on it to pay the bill instead of using client
machine if at all possible when did have needs. But, for about that
period from the CDC before the PC was capable enough to do useful
simulation, etc., I was almost totally involved w/ robotics for REMOTEC
or monitoring/control systems for the utilities replacing/augmenting the
original nuclear station analog control systems once NRC finally lifted
the ban on their use in safety/control systems.

--

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 22:32:45 -0500, Ignoramus23622
<ignoram...@NOSPAM.23622.invalid> wrote:

>On 2012-09-30, Jon Elson <el...@pico-systems.com> wrote:
>> Ignoramus23622 wrote:
>>
>>> I have several electric motor-like things, they are called
>>> motor-generators. It is a motor paired to a generator.
>>>
>> If this has 400 Hz output, the aviation folks might be interested,
>> although 100 Hp is probably more than they need. There are places
>> that run really heavy 400-Hz loads, however, such as where NASA
>> runs air force radar dishes for tracking radars and telemetry.
>>
>> Just a thought,
>>
>> Jon
>

>NASA would not buy from me, that's the problem.
>

>Based on my most brutally honest evaluation, these units, while

>almost new, have no resale potential.
>

>They do, however, have relatively large potential to be parted out and
>scrapped. Almost new size 3 contactors, breakers, copper, motors etc.
>
>i
Cut the windings out and sell the copper separately from the frames.
You will get more for the copper alone tnan for the entire M-G sets -
and still have the steel left. Cases are likely maleable iron - which
has different value than steel - and is worth more separated than
mixed.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Not much. Strip them and make about $50 an hour

[Ignoramus6882]

But it costs money to separate. Last time I looked at parting out
motor windings, it seemed difficult.

i

[Too_Many_Tools]

> of every country save their own. Benjamin Disraeli- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Hey Gummer...how come Ig is successful in surplus while you starving
at it, years behind on taxes and owing everyone alive?

May be being a conservative doesn't pay well?

TMT

[Martin Eastburn]

Make a DC power supply. The 400 Hz makes clean DC - but be
very very careful!!!!! 400 Hz is not a skin effect frequency like 60
cycle. 400 hz is center of the core - and will burn out marrow in your
arms if you short out an arm.

That happened to my Dad when they were looking at 400 for Ships. They
stuck with 60 cycle as they needed the ballast. Aircraft went to 400.

Martin

[Ignoramus6882]

On 2012-10-01, Martin Eastburn <lion...@consolidated.net> wrote:
> Make a DC power supply. The 400 Hz makes clean DC - but be
> very very careful!!!!! 400 Hz is not a skin effect frequency like 60
> cycle. 400 hz is center of the core - and will burn out marrow in your
> arms if you short out an arm.

There are many better ways of makign DC power supplies, I think.

i

[Jon Elson]

Ignoramus6882 wrote:


>
> In this case, I would need to find a user of an old IBM mainframe who
> needs a 415 Hz power supply. Which is not something that I hold my
> breath for.

No, nobody is running that old gear. The Computer History Museum
might have such a machine, but it is extremely unlikely they would
try to run it, due to the power and air conditioning needs.

But, the aviation shops need modest amounts of 400 Hz power
to test all sorts of gear still in use. Depending on the
size of whatever they are testing, they could need multi-KW
amounts of 400 Hz 3-phase power. Basically, on commercial
and military aircraft, anything that uses over 1 KW runs off the
AC power system, and there's a HELL of a lot of loads in them.

Jon

[Jon Elson]

Ignoramus23622 wrote:


>
> NASA would not buy from me, that's the problem.

How do you know? If they have a million $ radar disk
and it needs a new frequency converter, I bet they might
buy from you, or anybody that had the right parts to keep it
running. I KNOW NASA is running a whole island full of
stuff they got from the Air Force from the DEW project
or something of similar date (late 50's to early 60's).
I'm sure they have maintenance headaches with that old
stuff. How you'd get in touch with them is another
story, of course. And, you never know when they's actually
NEED such an item. So, it was just a suggestion that
there ARE some outfits that actually have a use for gear
like that.

Jon

[Jon Elson]

Michael A. Terrell wrote:


>
> Did you ever see any Microdyne or L3-Com telemetry receivers?
Mostly Nems-Clarke when I was there, which was 40 years ago.
I worked a summer for Defense Electronics Inc. which bought out
the Nems-Clarke name and most of the products from Vitro, I think.

I got to ride in the cab of the Advanced Data Acquisition System
while boresighting a CCTV camera. That one was an old Air Force
radar disk and was definitely run off 400 Hz hydraulics. I think
it was 60' diameter. Looks like they might have torn this down.

Jon

[Jon Elson]

Ignoramus6882 wrote:

> On 2012-09-30, dca...@krl.org <dca...@krl.org> wrote:

>>
>> Since they are made by Kato, I doubt there is any way to separate the
>> motor part from the generator part.
>
>
> While I will soon know for sure, this is indeed what I expect, that
> they are closely coupled.
>

The GE motor-alternator sets on the IBM 370/145 were 2-bearing
affairs. The motor and alternator sections were separate, but the
whole thing was on one shaft with two end bells, and both stators
in the same housing between them. A guy I know cut the motor rotor
off the shaft and rigged it by belts to a VW engine to make a
400 Hz TIG system. The 370/145 had a 17 KVA alternator output.

Jon

[David Lesher]

AFAIK, the ground power at the airport gate is 208 wye 400 Hz.
See ISO 6858.

For example, the 787 has three 90KVA connections.
<http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/articles/qtr_3_08/pdfs/AERO_Q308_article2.pdf>
--
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

[Michael A. Terrell]

Microdyne was started by two engineers & a salesman who left Defense
Electronics about that time. One receiver at the cape had been in
continuous use for 30 years in 2000.

[dpb]

On 9/30/2012 7:56 PM, Ignoramus6882 wrote:
> On 2012-10-01, cl...@snyder.on.ca<cl...@snyder.on.ca> wrote:

...

>> Cut the windings out and sell the copper separately from the frames.
>> You will get more for the copper alone tnan for the entire M-G sets -
>> and still have the steel left. Cases are likely maleable iron - which
>> has different value than steel - and is worth more separated than
>> mixed.
>
> But it costs money to separate. Last time I looked at parting out
> motor windings, it seemed difficult.

Yeah, but something that's 14k lb instead of 200 _may_ make it worth it;
I don't know. Cu is down from peak altho still pricey and I don't know
what the knockdown for the windings being coated rather than just copper
is but surely is worth checking on I'd think...

And, as said above you don't have to disassemble as for repair...

Just $0.01, etc., etc., etc., ...

--

[Ignoramus350]

But they have no use for 415 hz, do they?

[Ignoramus350]

On 2012-10-01, Jon Elson <el...@pico-systems.com> wrote:

Yeah, doubtfully anyone would want to pay above scrap price for a
project like this.

i

[Ignoramus350]

I agree, I will give this question my utmost attention, maybe there is
some easy way of doing it. And larger windings are easier to deal with
than small windings.

i

[Jon Elson]

Ignoramus350 wrote:


>
> Yeah, doubtfully anyone would want to pay above scrap price for a
> project like this.

ONLY if they actually NEED such a unit, but if the DO need it, they
might need it really badly, like to get a major computer, radar
or whatever back on line. I doubt there are too many places that
have this kind of gear available. So, not a really big chance
you can find a buyer who needs exactly that unit, right now,
but sure worth a quick check.

Jon

[Jon Elson]

415 Hz is 3.75% high, I can't believe the aircraft systems would
care. On the old planes (anything from F-4 to Boeing 707 to
pretty modern) they used multiple alternators that were driven
by hydraulic constant-speed drives. The alternators were
hard-synched, ie. they were just connected
to a couple common busses. When they start the engines on a passenger
jet and you see the lights blink, that is the alternators being added to the
bus. So, these constant-speed drives were very soft, to allow multiple
alternators to be synched, and I'd guess frequency varies by 5 - 10%
normally depending on load and the number of alternators supplying
the bus.

So, I am pretty sure any aviation maintenance outfit would find 415
Hz to be quite OK for testing aircraft hardware. The specific voltages
used on different planes were different, but 120/208 was pretty
common.

Jon

[Jon Elson]

Ignoramus350 wrote:


> I agree, I will give this question my utmost attention, maybe there is
> some easy way of doing it. And larger windings are easier to deal with
> than small windings.

It depends on how the motor was dipped. Some have relatively loose
windings, after cutting one end, you can drive the winding out of the
stator slot with little effort. On others, they are essentially
epoxy-potted, and the windings won't come out without roasting the entire
stator for days in an oven. And, then the EPA will come looking for
your hide.

My guess is the larger units are never made the potted way as the epoxy
just gets too expensive.

Jon

[Jon Elson]

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

>
> Jon Elson wrote:
>>
>> Michael A. Terrell wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > Did you ever see any Microdyne or L3-Com telemetry receivers?
>> Mostly Nems-Clarke when I was there, which was 40 years ago.
>> I worked a summer for Defense Electronics Inc. which bought out
>> the Nems-Clarke name and most of the products from Vitro, I think.
>>
>> I got to ride in the cab of the Advanced Data Acquisition System
>> while boresighting a CCTV camera. That one was an old Air Force

>> radar dish and was definitely run off 400 Hz hydraulics. I think

>> it was 60' diameter. Looks like they might have torn this down.
>
>
> Microdyne was started by two engineers & a salesman who left Defense
> Electronics about that time. One receiver at the cape had been in
> continuous use for 30 years in 2000.

Yeah, that was REALLY well-built stuff, I sometimes see some some
Watkins-Johnson, Nems-Clarke and such show up on eBay, usually badly
incomplete, and still for serious money. Wouldn't mind having a
Nems-Clarke receiver with a set of front ends and the spectrum
analyzer (panoramic display), but buying one piece and hoping the
rest show up someday might be a bad plan.

Jon

[Stanley Schaefer]

On Sep 29, 7:36 pm, Ignoramus23622 <ignoramus23...@NOSPAM.

23622.invalid> wrote:
> I have several electric motor-like things, they are called
> motor-generators. It is a motor paired to a generator.
>
> For scrap purposes, they are both electric motors. They are about 100
> HP in size.
>
> I bought them as complete units and I expect that I will be scrapping
> them and selling off contactors and such.
>
> When I look up prices of "scrap electric motors", I only see prices
> published for fractional horsepower motors.
>
> My question is, are large motors valued at a higher price per lb, or
> lower, than fractional motors.
>
> The total weight of these devices is 14,000 lbs, so I better do a good
> research before selecting a particular scrap yard.
>
> i

Most motors that size are worth breaking down to separate the copper
out. Fractional horsepower stuff, not so much, which is why only a
few cents a pound for them. Knew one scrap dealer that accumulated
barrels of motors during good weather and scrapped them out during the
winter when he couldn't work out in the yard. Probably could use a
sawzall on your big stuff to cut tie bands and such and maybe whack
the windings at the corners to get straight bits that you can get out
of the slots. The remains would go as regular steel scrap. Weigh the
amount of copper you get out of the first one to see if it would be a
paying deal.

Stan

[Ignoramus350]

My driver brought them in today on the semi truck.

I just came to my shop after a day of travel and I looked at the
units.

I believe them to have approximately $2,200 worth of parts. There are
four size 3 C-H contactors, big circuit breakers, copper wire, and
motor-generators that weigh 2,200 lbs (estimate), per each unit.

To beat that, I will need to get a lot more money per unit on ebay,
since I need to store them, etc. Which I am not sure if I would get
that much.

They have hours on the hourmeters as follows: 00375, 24000, 53000,
84000, 92000.

I consider the first two possible candidates for resale, and the last
three I would part out right away.

i

[Ned Simmons]

On Mon, 01 Oct 2012 16:45:31 -0500, Jon Elson <jme...@wustl.edu>
wrote:

I'll bet the generator outputs 415 Hz if the motor is running at
synchronous speed, which, assuming it's an induction motor, it never
does. In other words, the generator is nominally 415 Hz to account for
the motor's slip.

415 Hz / 400 Hz = 1800 RPM / 1715 RPM

--
Ned Simmons

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Mon, 01 Oct 2012 16:45:31 -0500, Jon Elson <jme...@wustl.edu>
wrote:

The aircraft we're dealing with have fixed voltage but variable
frequency.

[Ignoramus350]

That could be, also.

i

[Michael A. Terrell]

A lot of Microdyne 1100 & 1200 series show up on Ebay. A lot have
their spectrum display module, and the various plug ins are common. If
it is for sale from a lot bought at a government auction, it goes cheap.

I had a couple dozen manuals for the Defense Electronics models, but
lost them in a rental warehouse. I had a good laugh at their vacuum
tube models, compared to the 40 Mb/s analog model we were building. :)

[Jon Elson]

Ned Simmons wrote:


>
> I'll bet the generator outputs 415 Hz if the motor is running at
> synchronous speed, which, assuming it's an induction motor, it never
> does. In other words, the generator is nominally 415 Hz to account for
> the motor's slip.
>
> 415 Hz / 400 Hz = 1800 RPM / 1715 RPM
>

Nope, doesn't quite work out. The alternator has to have an integral
number of poles. To get 415 Hz at 1800 RPM it would need 13.333
poles. 14 poles and 1778.6 RPM (29.64 RPS) gives 415 Hz.
1779 RPM is reasonable for a larger 3-phase induction motor.
If your line voltage were a bit low, the slip would be greater, and
the motor would spin slower, although not by much. To get down to
400 hz the motor would need to spin at 28.57 RPS or 1714 RPM.
I doubt you could get it to slip that much without burning up the
motor rotor.

Jon

[Jon Elson]

Ignoramus350 wrote:


>
> To beat that, I will need to get a lot more money per unit on ebay,
> since I need to store them, etc. Which I am not sure if I would get
> that much.

Yeah, I certainly would not recommend hanging on to these beasts for
very long. If you don't find somebody quickly that needs such a unit,
the chance of one turning up later are really small. I was just mentioning
a couple industries that could use such a contraption.

If you go to the airport you'll see big boxes hanging under the
jetway ramps. One is an air conditioner for the plane. The other
is a combo 28 V DC power supply and either a motor-alternator set
or an electronic inverter.

Jon

[Ned Simmons]

On Mon, 01 Oct 2012 22:59:35 -0500, Jon Elson <el...@pico-systems.com>
wrote:

Yes, I probably should have said 415Hz unloaded instead of at
synchronous speed.

You left a factor of 2 out of the formula that relates relates the
number of motor poles to synchronous speed.

rps = 2f / P

But setting that aside, if the number of generator poles is 7x the
number of motor poles, and assuming a 4 pole motor, the frequency will
be 420Hz @ synchronous speed, 415Hz @ 1779 RPM, and 400Hz @ 1715 RPM.

Double the RPMs for a 2 pole motor, in which case the synchronous
speed is 3600 RPM.

A normal 3 phase motor might turn 1779 RPM with a very light load;
1750 - 1760 loaded is more typical, and 1725 RPM motors are common.
The difference between 1715 and 1725 is less than 1%. Motors with much
higher slip are available, but not necessary here, at least on paper.

--
Ned Simmons

[whack...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, 30 September 2012 02:36:55 UTC+1, Ignoramus23622 wrote:
> I have several electric motor-like things, they are called
>
> motor-generators. It is a motor paired to a generator.
>
>
>
> For scrap purposes, they are both electric motors. They are about 100
>
> HP in size.
>
>
>
> I bought them as complete units and I expect that I will be scrapping
>
> them and selling off contactors and such.
>
>
>
> When I look up prices of "scrap electric motors", I only see prices
>
> published for fractional horsepower motors.
>
>
>
> My question is, are large motors valued at a higher price per lb, or
>
> lower, than fractional motors.
>
>
>
> The total weight of these devices is 14,000 lbs, so I better do a good
>
> research before selecting a particular scrap yard.
>
>
>
> i

Hi,

Do you still have these or have you scraped them?

Regards
keepsending786 at ho t mail co m

[gotroot]

You will get a LOT more if you disassemble the motors and retreive the copper seperately. The scrap yard will pay minimally if you don't. The difference is substantial--50% or more.
Having said that, have you tried to sell them in as-is condition? Motors that size are rare and prized. You will get much more if they are running, or even if you cna just warrantee the aramtures are not shorted to ground.
--Root
-------------------------------------------
I killfile any poster that offers up off-topic content, in reply to someone else or not, it doesn't matter.

[Ignoramus29883]

They are neither rare, nor "prized".

I try to sell the better looking ones, though.

i

[William Donzelli]

On Sunday, April 27, 2014 9:49:02 AM UTC-4, Ignoramus29883 wrote:
> They are neither rare, nor "prized".
>
> I try to sell the better looking ones, though.

Sorry about the digging up of an old thread, but I would like to talk to you abut these motor-generator sets. I might need them. Could you please contact me? I can be reached at wdonzelli on that Gee Male doot Qom place.

Thanks.

--
Will