The Scourge of Rust
Mike Graham
do you do about spring humidity rusting your machine tools?
I have gotten *much* better. I oil them religiously. I cover them
with sheets. I built an enclosure for them and insulated it. I
haven't done the weatherstripping yet, but I put a small heater in
there before I left to go out of town for a couple of days, and I came
back last night to find a near-disaster.
The stuff outside of the enclosure like the bandsaws and whatnot are
in horrible shape with heavy, scaly rust on the machined surfaces.
All in two days!
The precision stuff isn't as bad, but this is still pissing me off.
The ways of the lathe had patches of light rust here and there. I had
wiped them clean and then oiled them before I left. I had taken off
the chuck and stored it in the cabinet. That turned out to be a Bad
Idea (tm) because it was in far worse shape than the rest of the
lathe, though the rust is all on the body surface, so it doesn't
matter. I had put the cam-lock wrench in the spindle so that the
sheet was tented up above the toolpost, which helped *it*, but the
handwheels and other surfaces which have had the paint worn off over
the years have all rusted.
Yes, I'm going to paint the paintable areas.
Even got the colour picked out - it's a somewhat rare colour made by
Tremclad, and it's called Possum Satin. I kid you not.
Anyway, 30 seconds with the scotch-brite fixed the chuck, and the
rust on the lathe ways wiped off with a cloth, for the most part.
I haven't yet had the courage to take the sheet off of the
Bridgeport.
I know that LPS-3 is wonderful stuff, and I use it on tractors and
whatnot that are being stored for a season, but I just can't see using
something that thick and waxy on precision ways.
What works to prevent rust, but doesn't interfere with the use of
the tool?
Heat isn't the best answer, because it can get humid in warm
weather, too. That was the problem this spring - wickedly high temps.
It got to almost 30C, here (about 85F) which is ridiculous for this
time of year. The condensation was unbelieveable. The concrete floor
of the shop is all dark with moisture, and the steel on the racks is
running with water.
Once I have the enclosure sealed up and it's rational to do so, I'll
put a heater in set to a bit below room temperature. That should
reduce the effects, anyway, but I'm still hoping for a 'silver bullet'
that will solve the problem.
On reflection, I suppose a dehumidifier would be helpful. How big a
one would you need for a 16x24' room with 8' ceilings? That's the
size of the machining enclosure.. the rest of the shop can't be
climatically controlled in a reasonably economical fashion, but the
enclosure has walls insulated to R20 and the ceiling is R30, with the
plastic moisture barrier, but until I get the cracks filled, it won't
really be moisture proof in any meaningful sense. The enclosure
shares the same bare concrete floor as the rest of the shop.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Mike Graham | Fighting the good fight against porosity,
mi...@metalmangler.com | lack of fusion, and people who constantly
<http://www.metalmangler.com>| try to correct the spelling of 'weldor'.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
John
Mike,
Good old 90W gear grease is pretty good stuff, but it's a bit sticky-
might not be the best for machine tools. What about the aerosol dry
lubricants? Graphite and such, would that help any? For a third
thought, the firearms crowd like the teflon stuff, "Tri-flow" is the
name that comes to mind- it's a little pricey but it might work.
John
Don Warner
Wheeling,IL fax 1 800-756-7986 works very well. Comes in a 16 oz. spray can
and leaves only a slight oily film. WD-40 is worse than nothing!
Don Warner
"Mike Graham" <mi...@metalmangler.com> wrote in message
news:4ed0cu8hohmnat0dj...@4ax.com...
John
>
> It seems like every year around this time I ask this question. What
> do you do about spring humidity rusting your machine tools?
>
> the tool?
>
If you *do* want the metal to rust then use:
wd40, new motor oil, used motor oil, kerosene or water.
If you do *not* want to see any rust then use:
paint, wax, grease, non-detergent new motor oil or
very dark glasses.
A dehumidifier is a good idea, don't forget to
empty it when it's full. HTH
--
Have 5 nice days! John
******************************
--- ILN 000.000.001 ---
Glen
Mike Graham wrote:
>
> It seems like every year around this time I ask this question. What
> do you do about spring humidity rusting your machine tools?
Mike,
My first shop was two lawn building put together so the internal area
was 14 X 28, on a concrete slab. I tried wood heat but that seemed to
really aggravate the problem. I then put foam insulation on the inside
surfaces of the roof so it wouldn't "rain" on my equipment, the
condensation made it do that. That was the key to stopping it, not the
foam but the realization that the machines were forming condensate on
all exposed surfaces. I built a new all steel shop with fiberglass
insulation, installed an oil stove to average out the temperature and
the problems all went away. The stove is thermostatically controlled
24-7, the temperature never gets down to the dew point inside.
Glen
jim rozen
>
> It seems like every year around this time I ask this question. What
>do you do about spring humidity rusting your machine tools?
Easy - once spring hits (we went right from winter to high
summer in one day here in NY) I just walk by the dehumidifier
in the shop and turn it to 'constant run.' Water from
air goes down the drain.
This gets left on until the fall, when the temp in the shop
drops so low that the freeze sensor on the cold coil trips
it off.
Jim
===================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at watson dot ibm dot com
===================================
Mike Graham
<mi...@metalmangler.com> wrote:
> It seems like every year around this time I ask this question. What
>do you do about spring humidity rusting your machine tools?
I read the replies on Google (my usenet feed was down for five
hours! Oh the agony!) and thought I'd add this info:
a) the oil that I use on my lathe *is* non-detergent 30-weight oil,
as specified by the owner's manual
b) I'm going to start painting everything paintable, even the bodies
of the lathe chucks. Paint 'em yellow and pretend it's for safety.
c) I'm going to experiment with sticking wax paper to the
oil-covered ways to sort of imitate the way they're shipped in
cosmoline and brown paper.
Any other thoughts? I'm not sure wax is feasible when I'm only
going to be away for a couple of days... I need to balance the effort
with the results.
Rich Kasik
harder on steel. Practical Sailor did a comparison a while back on this
stuff. Anhydrous lanolin rated pretty well, too. As far as the gun stuff
goes, I've used RIG with good results.
Machini$t
Ronald Thompson
tight and all the iron "sweats" and rusts. I am thinking of heating the
machines directly to prevent condensation.
In Gingery's book on making a plastic injection molding machine, IIRC he
uses "plug heaters" that screw into a threaded hole and heat the metal. I
also considered those magnetic heaters used in cold areas to heat engines. I
thought I might rig a thermostat to keep the iron just warm enough to
prevent the moisture build-up.
I wonder if a lightbulb inside the base of my K&T Milwaukee #2 vertical mill
would protect it?
I used a droplight under a sheet on my Grizzley 3in1 with a noticeable
improvement.
Like you, I believe the solution is sealing the shop.
BTW, does your concrete floor have a vapor barrier under it? If not, a
sealer may help. Moisture comes right through concrete.
--
Ron Thompson
Machinist student
On The Beautiful Mississippi Gulf Coast
USA
"Mike Graham" <mi...@metalmangler.com> wrote in message
news:4ed0cu8hohmnat0dj...@4ax.com...
Mike Graham
<"machini$t"@ohioweb.net> wrote:
>Try Boeshield. Sailors love the stuff, and their environment is a lot
>harder on steel. Practical Sailor did a comparison a while back on this
>stuff. Anhydrous lanolin rated pretty well, too. As far as the gun stuff
>goes, I've used RIG with good results.
Are either of these thin enough to be easy to clean off? Like,
would you give the ways a squirt each night then just wipe them off in
the morning, or are there solvents involved in removing it?
Mike Graham
<thom...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>I have the same problem here in southern Mississippi. My shop is not air
>tight and all the iron "sweats" and rusts. I am thinking of heating the
>machines directly to prevent condensation.
That's another thought. One of the electrically inclined, here,
mentioned some kind of strip-heater that apparently lasts forever and
a day - you get them at electrical supply places. Bolted to the
machine on/near the undersides of the ways... may be the way to go.
The usual solution of a light-bulb has the drawback of blowing every
few months.
>also considered those magnetic heaters used in cold areas to heat engines.
Block heaters. Similar concept to these strip heaters, I assume
(block heaters last damned near forever) but block heaters aren't a
convenient shape.
>BTW, does your concrete floor have a vapor barrier under it? If not, a
>sealer may help. Moisture comes right through concrete.
No, I seriously doubt that it does. I'll look into sealing it.
Brian Lawson
Hey Mike,
Princess Auto has/had a sale deal for those overhead ceiling mounted 4
bladed fans, at like 10 bucks each. That would help. I think you got
hit recently the same way we did here, by the extremely warm moist
air, and the still cool machines in the shop. I've used just a 100
watt bulb under each sheet covered machine, or in a cabinet (like for
keeping rod warm) with a used thermostat for electric baseboard
heaters. (You can't use a mercury switch type, because you won't have
it mounted permanently or "level".) Big trick is to turn the heat way
up on the day the weather guy says "it's gonna be nice tom morrow".
Or hook up a de-humidifier sensor switch, but I've not tried that.
There's no reasonably priced de-humidifier that can keep up with this
stuff from Mother Nature, but the heater will. What do you heat the
shop with?
Sorry for your problem.
Are you coming to NAMES? I'd like to meet you.
Brian Lawson,
Windsor, Ontario.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
On Fri, 19 Apr 2002 11:36:59 -0400, Mike Graham
<mi...@metalmangler.com> wrote:
jim rozen
> c) I'm going to experiment with sticking wax paper to the
>oil-covered ways to sort of imitate the way they're shipped in
>cosmoline and brown paper.
Go with the LPS-3 and saran wrap. Or, if you like,
regular way oil and saran wrap. The cover just keeps
the oil from evaporating.
Dave Martindale
> That's another thought. One of the electrically inclined, here,
>mentioned some kind of strip-heater that apparently lasts forever and
>a day - you get them at electrical supply places. Bolted to the
>machine on/near the undersides of the ways... may be the way to go.
>The usual solution of a light-bulb has the drawback of blowing every
>few months.
How about the heat tape that is used to wrap pipes so they don't freeze?
Or the stuff used to melt snow and ice on the edge of your roof so you
don't get ice dams? I remember seeing those products when I lived in
Ontario and Quebec.
Dave
Mike Graham
wrote:
>Princess Auto has/had a sale deal for those overhead ceiling mounted 4
>bladed fans, at like 10 bucks each. That would help.
Really? Didn't know that. I suppose it makes sense, but I'm not
sure how... I'll give it a try. I'll have to get one of those
'roof-hugger' ones otherwise I'll be banging into it all the time when
I'm carrying stuff. Would a regular oscillating fan do the job just
as well, or is the roof-mounted aspect crucial?
> I think you got
>hit recently the same way we did here, by the extremely warm moist
>air, and the still cool machines in the shop. I've used just a 100
>watt bulb under each sheet covered machine, or in a cabinet (like for
>keeping rod warm) with a used thermostat for electric baseboard
>heaters.
Luckily I've got a hot-cupboard that I keep the really tender stuff
in (like electrodes and small precision tools etc.) so they're all
okay, but the machines took a hit. Actually, I pulled the sheet off
of the Bridgeport and it looks fine. Go figure.
So do you use heavier covers, like old sleeping bags or something,
or just regular bedsheets?
>There's no reasonably priced de-humidifier that can keep up with this
>stuff from Mother Nature, but the heater will. What do you heat the
>shop with?
I've got one of those regular ceramic element heaters that I use to
take the edge off. I have a woodstove in there, too, and I've been
known to use propane heaters when it's *really* cold.
>Sorry for your problem.
Well, it gave me the incentive to start painting the machines, so it
isn't *all* bad. 8-) Started taking the lathe apart tonight, and
tomorrow I'll finish taking it apart and paint the bits (it's due for
a good cleaning, anyway) and then I'll paint the Bridgie. It *really*
needs a paint job. It is *hideously* ugly with this weird god-awful
blue paint on it. That colour must have been on sale... 8-)
>Are you coming to NAMES? I'd like to meet you.
I hadn't planned on it. I had noticed various murmurings mentioning
it, but I've never really taken the time to find out what it is. I
assume it's a hobby metalworking convention? In Michigan somewhere?
I used to live in Windsor, actually, a long time ago when I was a
kid. Near Roselawn Golf Course. Crawl up on the roof and it's
nothing but swimming pools as far as the eye can see. 8-) Had to
move in a hurry when my dad foreclosed on some guy's business and he
decided to burn our house down for it (and slash up one of the cars
and make all kinds of threats etc. etc.). Ah, the peaceful, boring
life of the banker... 8-)
Anyway, I'd like to meet you, too. Actually, there are a bunch of
people around here that I'd like to meet. I wonder how many SW
Ontarians are heading for NAMES?
What's the general deal? Multi-day? When? Cost of admission?
Mike Graham
wrote:
>How about the heat tape that is used to wrap pipes so they don't freeze?
There's an idea... wrap it around the legs of the lathe. Might be
ugly, but might be worth it.
Tim
> Anyway, I'd like to meet you, too. Actually, there are a bunch of
> people around here that I'd like to meet. I wonder how many SW
> Ontarians are heading for NAMES?
> What's the general deal? Multi-day? When? Cost of admission?
Hell, I'd like to meet anybody...that way, knowing you guyz, you'd
just *give* me a free lathe...(you'd better damnit :^) :^) :^)
Tim
--
"WOOHOO! Who would've guessed reading and writing would pay off!"
- Homer Simpson
Jim Levie
> It seems like every year around this time I ask this question. What
> do you do about spring humidity rusting your machine tools?
>
snip, snip...
>
> On reflection, I suppose a dehumidifier would be helpful. How big a
> one would you need for a 16x24' room with 8' ceilings? That's the size of
> the machining enclosure.. the rest of the shop can't be climatically
> controlled in a reasonably economical fashion, but the enclosure has walls
> insulated to R20 and the ceiling is R30, with the plastic moisture barrier,
> but until I get the cracks filled, it won't really be moisture proof in any
> meaningful sense. The enclosure shares the same bare concrete floor as the
> rest of the shop.
>
Yes a dehumidifier or two (or three) is the answer. How big of one you need
is all about how well sealed the machinery area is w/respect to air
infiltration and what the relative humidity is in your area. It sounds like
you might not too much of an infiltration problem from the above, but might
be located in an area that has high relative humidity. On that basis I'd
start with a large'ish dehumidifier and see how it handles the load. If it
pulls the relative humidity down to were it can maintain a safe level with no
more than a 50% duty cycle it would be enough. If it winds up running most or
all of the time simply add another unit. For a 16x24 area I might start with
about a 40pint/day unit and aim for about 30% relative humidity.
--
The instructions said to use Windows 98 or better, so I installed RedHat.
Jim Guthrie
<mi...@metalmangler.com> wrote:
Mike,
>I have a woodstove in there, too, and I've been
>known to use propane heaters when it's *really* cold.
If your propane heaters are the direct type (i.e. open flame) then
your putting one hell of a lot of water back into the atmosphere in
your workshop and making your problem worse. Electrical heat, or
indirect gas heat - where the products of the flame burning exhaust to
the outside - are what you want.
Jim.
Ian Main
> It seems like every year around this time I ask this question. What
> do you do about spring humidity rusting your machine tools?
I may be concidered insane, but I've been putting vegetable oil (cheap
canola) on my tools to prevent them from rusting. So far I've had
very good luck with it. I like it cause I don't have to worry about
making a mess as it's all degradeable (maybe a bad thing? :)), and
getting it on your hands or whatever is no big deal at all. It does
get a bit tacky over time, but that can be cleaned off if needed.
Ian
Gary Coffman
>On 19 Apr 2002 18:08:32 -0700, da...@cs.ubc.ca (Dave Martindale)
>wrote:
>
>>How about the heat tape that is used to wrap pipes so they don't freeze?
>
> There's an idea... wrap it around the legs of the lathe. Might be
>ugly, but might be worth it.
Heat tape is what I use. You only need to get the metal a degree or two
above air temperature to prevent condensation. Try to arrange the heat
tape so that the machine is evenly heated (differential expansion plays
hell with machine accuracy). Using the minimum necessary heat will
reduce this problem to a minimum.
Gary
RKurtz
>> do you do about spring humidity rusting your machine tools?
>
I don't have the freeze/thaw cycle, or the dripping humidity, but I've used
Kano products, and they seem to hold up much better than WD-40.
Just do a search for AeroKroil, and check out the money-back guarantee.
With the 800 number, I'd call for advice, also.
Ron
Mike Graham
wrote:
>If your propane heaters are the direct type (i.e. open flame) then
>your putting one hell of a lot of water back into the atmosphere in
>your workshop and making your problem worse.
I know, but when it's 40 below, I just don't give a shit. 8-) I
rarely use the propane heater... didn't even turn it on this winter.
Only when it's *really* cold.
Mike Graham
wrote:
>Yes a dehumidifier or two (or three) is the answer.
Once I get the enclosure weather-stripped, I'll put one in and see
what happens.
Michael Hanz
> Yes a dehumidifier or two (or three) is the answer. How big of one you need
> is all about how well sealed the machinery area is w/respect to air
> infiltration and what the relative humidity is in your area.
Agree with Jim here, but there is a downside. My Hardinge and
Bridgeport are in the garage (Washington DC area) and the dehumidifier
runs all summer. That part is fine, but remember that a dehumidifier is
NOT 100% efficient. In the process of cooling down and reheating the
air, you input more heat, and that gradually becomes pretty formidable
in the summertime. The garage runs about 10 degrees hotter than it used
to on any given day. I picked up another dehumidifier for nothing from
a neighbor and have been toying with the idea of hacking it in half and
putting the condensing coil outside, turning it into a miniature A/C
unit. I don't want to hack up the side of the house to install a window
unit, though that is probably the best answer.
Just something to consider...
Mike
jim rozen
100% true. In fact, a dehumidifier is 100% IN-efficient! All the
work that is done to extract moisture is dumped into the area as
heat, and my shop does feel that in the summertime. Being a
basement shop it is tough to raise it's temp very high but one
does notice the extra heat without a doubt. I also have been
considering installing a very small a/c unit in one of the windows,
if things heat up this summer it might happen.
The real sweet time in the shop is spring and fall. During those
times the humidity is starting to increase, but the shop is
still quite cold. So the extra heat from the dehumidifier
actually feels nice. (even though obtained at a premium!)
Dan Caster
the right wax will provide capilary action to get the oil back onto
any areas where the oil has been pushed out of the way. I think
cosmoline is a mixture of microcrystaline wax and oil. You could try
diluting cosmoline with something like ATF so you have something that
will wipe on and wipe off.
Sealing the floor may be really helpful, especially if your shop area
is fairly well sealed. By the way Glidden used to sell a paint that
was guaranteed to provide a vapor seal that was pretty good, but any
latex paint on the walls will do fairly well in providing a moisture
vapor ( ditto the floor ). Aluminum paint is also very good.
Any sort of fan will help with keeping moisture from warm moist air
from condensing on cold equipment. The fan will help keep the
equipment at the same temperature as the air ( warm up the equipment
quicker ) and to get the condensed moisture back into the air ( unless
the rel humidity is 100% ).
Dehumidifiers don't work well when the air is cold. Some are better
than others, but the old one I rescued from the dump is worthless at
any temp below 60 F.
If your problem is when it warms up a lot during the day, but the
nights are cool, then I would use a fan all the time you are not in
the shop and a dehumidifier during the day. An old furnace squirrel
cage blower moves a lot of air and the price is usually right. I
would try a fan before trying to heat the equipment.
The fan approach is exactly opposite from covering the equipment with
a sheet.
Covering with a sheet keeps the air from moving by the equipment so
you get less condensation. But it is no vapor barrier so the moisture
can and will escape.
The fan keeps the air moving so that there is no still air next to the
equipment that cools below the dew point.
Just don't cover with poly plastic. That guarantees still air next to
the equipment and it won't let the water vapor out.
Dan
Rich Kasik
way oil and run. Same with RIG- it's a grease so a thin film of the
stuff wouldn't be any trouble. Anhydrous lanolin I haven't tried, you
could get a sample from your local pharmacy.
Another thought- why not buy some vapor paper, drape over the ways?
Jim Guthrie
<mi...@metalmangler.com> wrote:
Mike,
>
>>If your propane heaters are the direct type (i.e. open flame) then
>>your putting one hell of a lot of water back into the atmosphere in
>>your workshop and making your problem worse.
>
> I know, but when it's 40 below, I just don't give a shit. 8-) I
>rarely use the propane heater... didn't even turn it on this winter.
>Only when it's *really* cold.
I can sympathise, having tried to work in a freezing workshop in my
previous house :-). And I also got a lot of surface rust on my tools
:-(
But in my present workshop in the back of the garage, I've made it
quite small and well insulated, and keep it heated to just above dew
point with an electric convection heater between work sessions. I
haven't had any surface rust for several years due to condensation.
Jim.
Mike Graham
>A combination of wax and oil could be helpful.
When I'm going to be leaving it for a while (like a week) then I'll
hit it with LPS-3, but the fan concept sounds pretty decent for
keeping the stuff in good shape for shorter periods.
Would you still use the porous sheet with the fan? Or no?
jim rozen
says...
>Dehumidifiers don't work well when the air is cold. Some are better
>than others, but the old one I rescued from the dump is worthless at
>any temp below 60 F.
They don't because they work by cooling the air below the dew
point. If the dew point is below freezing then that idea
does not work very well. But as temperatures get colder, the
relative humidity tends to drop, at least in my shop. The
outside air is very cold and has a certain amount of water
vapor present, with a certain R.H. When that air enters
the shop, it is heated - but no more moisture is added.
This causes the RH to plummet in the shop (well, in the
entire house) during the winter. So that in most cases,
the dehumidifier (with its attendent head produced) works
fine during the warm months, and nothing at all is needed
during the cold months, as there's enough make-up air
coming in from out doors, and being heated, to keep the RH
so low that rust has never really been a problem.
Ian Stirling
>
> In article <3CC16801...@erols.com>, Michael says...
>>
>>Jim Levie wrote:
>>
>>> Yes a dehumidifier or two (or three) is the answer. How big of one you need
>>> is all about how well sealed the machinery area is w/respect to air
>>> infiltration and what the relative humidity is in your area.
> 100% true. In fact, a dehumidifier is 100% IN-efficient! All the
> work that is done to extract moisture is dumped into the area as
> heat, and my shop does feel that in the summertime. Being a
Not quite.
A dehumidifier can put out lots more heat than it uses in electricity.
It's basically an AC unit, with the heat source being the condensing
water.
It produces about the same amount of heat it would take to boil off
all the water it collects, but uses only a fraction (admittedly quite
a large fraction often) of the input.
If you are willing to edit an existing one a little, you can pull the
fins off the cooling (cooling of the working fluid, they get hot), work
out a cover to flow water past them, and then get rid of the heat outside.
--
http://inquisitor.i.am/ | mailto:inqui...@i.am | Ian Stirling.
---------------------------+-------------------------+--------------------------
Get off a shot FAST, this upsets him long enough to let you make your
second shot perfect. -- Robert A Heinlein.
Mike Graham
<ro...@mauve.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Not quite.
>A dehumidifier can put out lots more heat than it uses in electricity.
One of the very very few unbreakable laws that we have in the
physical world is that the usage of electricity produces a very
predictable amount of heat. A 45 watt lightbulb produces the same
amount of heat as a 45 watt soldering iron. As this is one of a very
few unbreakable laws, I'd prefer you didn't run roughshod over it.
Nothing that is powered solely on electricity can put out more heat
than it uses in electricity.
Dave Martindale
><ro...@mauve.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>Not quite.
>>A dehumidifier can put out lots more heat than it uses in electricity.
Mike Graham <mi...@metalmangler.com> writes:
> One of the very very few unbreakable laws that we have in the
>physical world is that the usage of electricity produces a very
>predictable amount of heat. A 45 watt lightbulb produces the same
>amount of heat as a 45 watt soldering iron. As this is one of a very
>few unbreakable laws, I'd prefer you didn't run roughshod over it.
>Nothing that is powered solely on electricity can put out more heat
>than it uses in electricity.
Well, actually, Ian's right. If you like, think of it as the
humidifier being "powered" by water vapour as well as electricity.
Condensing water releases a LOT of heat (consider how much energy it
takes to boil a liter of water), and that heat ends up in the room
along with the electricity. The electricity, of course, is converted
to heat with nearly 100% efficiency.
This works in the other direction, too. When you boil a pot of water
on the stove, a significant fraction of the heat goes into turning
water into water vapour, *not* heating up the room.
Dave
Gary Coffman
>On Sat, 20 Apr 2002 21:29:45 GMT, Ian Stirling
><ro...@mauve.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Not quite.
>>A dehumidifier can put out lots more heat than it uses in electricity.
>
> One of the very very few unbreakable laws that we have in the
>physical world is that the usage of electricity produces a very
>predictable amount of heat. A 45 watt lightbulb produces the same
>amount of heat as a 45 watt soldering iron. As this is one of a very
>few unbreakable laws, I'd prefer you didn't run roughshod over it.
>Nothing that is powered solely on electricity can put out more heat
>than it uses in electricity.
No. When a dehumidifier condenses water, it releases 2500 joules
per gram latent heat from the water. This is released into the room
along with the heat produced by its operation. This isn't something
for nothing, entropy increases, but it does allow a heating coefficient
of performance greater than unity.
A heat pump does a similar thing by extracting heat from an outdoor
source and dumping it in the room. Its coefficient of performance is also
over unity, ie the room winds up with more sensible heat than it would
get from pure electrical resistance heating. If that weren't so, there'd be
no advantage to using a heat pump instead of electrical resistance
heating.
The difference here is that the energy was already present in the room in
the form of the latent heat of vaporization (hydrogen bond energy). The
dehumidifier merely changes its form to sensible heat (molecular motion).
Gary
Mike Graham
wrote:
>Well, actually, Ian's right. If you like, think of it as the
>humidifier being "powered" by water vapour as well as electricity.
Ah. Okay.
John & Beth Kasunich
<mi...@metalmangler.com> wrote:
>
>>Are you coming to NAMES? I'd like to meet you.
>
> I hadn't planned on it. I had noticed various murmurings mentioning
>it, but I've never really taken the time to find out what it is. I
>assume it's a hobby metalworking convention? In Michigan somewhere?
> I used to live in Windsor, actually, a long time ago when I was a
>kid. Near Roselawn Golf Course. Crawl up on the roof and it's
>nothing but swimming pools as far as the eye can see. 8-) Had to
>move in a hurry when my dad foreclosed on some guy's business and he
>decided to burn our house down for it (and slash up one of the cars
>and make all kinds of threats etc. etc.). Ah, the peaceful, boring
>life of the banker... 8-)
> Anyway, I'd like to meet you, too. Actually, there are a bunch of
>people around here that I'd like to meet. I wonder how many SW
>Ontarians are heading for NAMES?
> What's the general deal? Multi-day? When? Cost of admission?
>
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>Mike Graham | Fighting the good fight against porosity,
>mi...@metalmangler.com | lack of fusion, and people who constantly
><http://www.metalmangler.com>| try to correct the spelling of 'weldor'.
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I'm going, for the first time. Hope to meet some of the regulars
there. It's in Detroit (actually Southgate MI, a little southwest of
Detroit. Two days, Saturday & Sunday April 27 & 28. Cost $6 US,
covers both days. I just saw a post from Scott Logan about it.
He has more info on his website.
John Kasunich
jim rozen
>>>A dehumidifier can put out lots more heat than it uses in electricity.
>Well, actually, Ian's right.
I think the question hinges on the definition of "lots"
as seen in the uppermost sentence. My guess is that
the heat of condensation is probably a *lot* less than
the electricity burned to condense the water. Much less
than half, probably more like below 10%, for a given
volume of water.
Gary Coffman
>In article <a9t5g3$kt4$1...@trappist.cs.ubc.ca>, da...@cs.ubc.ca says...
>
>>>>A dehumidifier can put out lots more heat than it uses in electricity.
>
>>Well, actually, Ian's right.
>
>I think the question hinges on the definition of "lots"
>as seen in the uppermost sentence. My guess is that
>the heat of condensation is probably a *lot* less than
>the electricity burned to condense the water. Much less
>than half, probably more like below 10%, for a given
>volume of water.
The latent heat released per gram of condensed water
is 2500 Joules. How many watt-seconds do you think
the dehumidifier consumes per gram of water condensed?
Hint: a dehumidifier that condenses 4 liters per day draws
about 600 watts. You do the math.
Gary
Doug
I mix petroleum jelly (vaseline) with petrol white spirit). When the
vaseline has "melted" into solution I paint it on the tools/machine I
want to protect from rusting.
The petrol evaporates and leaves a thin coat of vaseline which is
impervious
to water. Care is needed to keep away naked lights when applying.
I have since heard that using lanoline instead of vaseline gives
better
protection but nothing I have "painted" with my mixture has rusted.
It is very easily removed with a rag and white spirit or kerosene.
I also use it on the barbaque plates.
Mike Graham
(John & Beth Kasunich) wrote:
>I'm going, for the first time. Hope to meet some of the regulars
>there. It's in Detroit (actually Southgate MI, a little southwest of
>Detroit. Two days, Saturday & Sunday April 27 & 28. Cost $6 US,
>covers both days. I just saw a post from Scott Logan about it.
>He has more info on his website.
I should go, then. Detroit is close enough.
Mike Graham
wrote:
>The latent heat released per gram of condensed water
>is 2500 Joules. How many watt-seconds do you think
>the dehumidifier consumes per gram of water condensed?
Something to consider, though, is that some amount of that water
will be condensing on my lathe if not in the dehumidifier, so not all
of that heat is 'added' to the system, if you know what I mean.
Mike Graham
>To prevent rusting:-
>I mix petroleum jelly (vaseline) with petrol white spirit).
Hey, I like that. So the 'local' name for those white spirits would
be mineral spirits, I'm thinking... or just use varsol.
jim rozen
>Hint: a dehumidifier that condenses 4 liters per day draws
>about 600 watts. You do the math.
OK, I think my dehumidifier creates about a liter of
water per day, and it maybe uses one kW.
Using your head of condensation, that gives 1kg of water at
2.5 e3 per gram for a total of 2.5 e6 joules total.
The thing runs for 24 hours, 60 minutes per hour, 60
seconds per minute, at a rate of - heck, lets use your
600 joule-sec number rather than a round kw.
Hmm. You check my math, looks like about 5 e7 joules
total. My 10% guess was good? Other guess relied on
here is the one liter per day. Because my dehumdifier
has a hose to drain into the shop sink, I have literally
no idea how much condensate it produces.
And if I measured it right now, I *know* the answer would
be low. Temps just dropped from the mid-90s last week
to around 40 last night. Must be global warming. :^)
Dan Caster
that it doesn't cool enough to have the moisture condense. The porous
sheet works by keeping the air around the equipment still so that
only the moisture from a small amount of air can condense. But allows
the water vapor to escape.
Dan
Mike Graham <mi...@metalmangler.com> wrote in message
Ian Stirling
>
> In article <gns4cus9q5q2rqr2f...@4ax.com>, Gary says...
>
>>Hint: a dehumidifier that condenses 4 liters per day draws
>>about 600 watts. You do the math.
>
> OK, I think my dehumidifier creates about a liter of
> water per day, and it maybe uses one kW.
Check the nameplate.
Mine says 220W, and 12L/day. (at 30C, 80% humidity)
As the nameplate is the maximum it uses, I think it's realistic to assume
150W.
That's a total of 13MJ/day.
Latent heat of vapourisation is 2.26MJ/Kg, or 27MJ/day.
So, under optimal conditions it produces about 600W of heat, using
150W of power.
I've never seen it condense more than 3l/day, perhaps as it almost never
gets that hot and humid in scotland.
Most days it seems like it will be putting out about 50-100% more heat
than it's electrical use alone. (based on the fact it's by no means always
on, and the power use)
Still, better than nothing.
(If you read the original message I did say that the extra heat is sometimes
only a small fraction of the electricity used)
--
http://inquisitor.i.am/ | mailto:inqui...@i.am | Ian Stirling.
---------------------------+-------------------------+--------------------------
"Melchett : Unhappily Blackadder, the Lord High Executioner is dead
Blackadder : Oh woe! Murdered of course.
Melchett : No, oddly enough no. They usually are but this one just got
careless one night and signed his name on the wrong dotted line.
They came for him while he slept." - Blackadder II
jim rozen
>Hmm. You check my math, looks like about 5 e7 joules
>total. My 10% guess was good? Other guess relied on
>here is the one liter per day.
Whoa, wild miscalculation. Not one liter per day.
I checked, it is running one drop per second right
now (still warm and humid in there) which works out
to about 75 liters per day! So the real heat of
condensation is arould 2 e8 joules per day, compared
wiht 5 e7 electrical consumption. But I still
think that thing draws more like 1kw, which would
bring then closer togther.
Fred the Red Shirt
> It seems like every year around this time I ask this question. What
> do you do about spring humidity rusting your machine tools?
>
A very old technique for cast iron is rubbing it down with
talcum powder. Natural talc is mostly magnesium tetra silicate
and it provides electro-whatever-it's-called protection.
Baby powder made from cornstach is not the right stuff.
The rule was to apply it once a day for a week, once a week for
a month, once a month for a year and once a year thereafter.
I don't know if it will rub in after you've used something
else like wax or oil.
I started using it on a new drill press a while back and so far
so good but I don't have a control for comparison.
Has anybody had experience with a product called 'Extend?'
You're supposed to paint it onto rusty metal and supposedly
it reacts with the rust and forms a tough skin sealing the
effected area.
--
FF
Ian Stirling
>
> In article <a9uod...@drn.newsguy.com>, jim says...
>
>>Hmm. You check my math, looks like about 5 e7 joules
>>total. My 10% guess was good? Other guess relied on
>>here is the one liter per day.
>
> Whoa, wild miscalculation. Not one liter per day.
>
> I checked, it is running one drop per second right
> now (still warm and humid in there) which works out
> to about 75 liters per day! So the real heat of
Last time I measured it, I got 18 drops/ml, so slightly less perhaps.
(this is from memory, and it was a while ago)
--
http://inquisitor.i.am/ | mailto:inqui...@i.am | Ian Stirling.
---------------------------+-------------------------+--------------------------
"The theory of everything falls out trivially." -- Etherman, sci.physics kook.
Ian Stirling
>
> In article <3183eab.02042...@posting.google.com>, dca...@krl.org
> says...
>
>>Dehumidifiers don't work well when the air is cold. Some are better
>>than others, but the old one I rescued from the dump is worthless at
>>any temp below 60 F.
>
> They don't because they work by cooling the air below the dew
> point. If the dew point is below freezing then that idea
> does not work very well. But as temperatures get colder, the
It can work almost as well if it does get below freezing.
You just need a dehumidifier that knows about ice, and will defrost
it before it gets too thick.
(you want it so that there is no significant temperature drop across the
ice, otherwise efficiancy goes down, but also you want to make sure that
you don't defrost it too soon, as on-off cycling is inefficiant.)
(there is less water in the air at lower temperatures, so it will never
be as efficiant)
(I'm finding I'm putting too many parenthesised comments in nowadays, so
I better stop :) )
--
http://inquisitor.i.am/ | mailto:inqui...@i.am | Ian Stirling.
---------------------------+-------------------------+--------------------------
What a wonderfull world it is that has girls in it! -- Robert A Heinlein.
Dave Martindale
>OK, I think my dehumidifier creates about a liter of
>water per day, and it maybe uses one kW.
>Using your head of condensation, that gives 1kg of water at
>2.5 e3 per gram for a total of 2.5 e6 joules total.
>The thing runs for 24 hours, 60 minutes per hour, 60
>seconds per minute, at a rate of - heck, lets use your
>600 joule-sec number rather than a round kw.
It sounds like your shop is actually pretty dry already, and you have
the unit set to run continuously. Your numbers seem reasonable for
that situation.
But not everyone runs that way. Most dehumidifiers have a humidistat,
and if you set that to a particular point, the dehumidifier will run
only as often as needed to keep humidity below that setting. Even in
the summer, ours runs only intermittently. That drops the daily
electricity consumption a lot. In winter, it runs occasionally
when it's raining outside, but hardly ever when it's clear.
Now, in really humid conditions, typical dehumidifers are rated to
remove 40 l per day, not 1 l. So you'd get 40 times the heat from
condensation while the electric power used would only go up a little.
That's 1e8 joules from the water, and half that much from the
electrical input.
In less humid situations, the unit is going to be less efficient at
condensing water, so the heat of condensation will be less compared
to the electricity - maybe less than equal.
But I think your 10% value is because you're running the unit all the
time when the humidity is already quite low. Either that, or you're
really getting a lot more than 1 l/day from it.
Dave
Gary Coffman
>Whoa, wild miscalculation. Not one liter per day.
>
>I checked, it is running one drop per second right
>now (still warm and humid in there) which works out
>to about 75 liters per day! So the real heat of
>condensation is arould 2 e8 joules per day, compared
>wiht 5 e7 electrical consumption. But I still
>think that thing draws more like 1kw, which would
>bring then closer togther.
The coefficient of performance for heat pumps is typically
in the 3 to 7 range. Dehumidifiers are more variable,
depending on the RH, but should be quite a bit better
during times when a dehumidifier is needed. Your figures
indicate a COP of 4.
Gary
eberlein
than electricity input, hence the name of the appliance. Heat is extracted
from outside air thru an evaporastor coil that operates at a lower temperature
than the outside air and actually draws heat from outdoors.
Mike Eberlein
Mike Graham
wrote:
>Not strictly accurate. A conventional heat pump produces more heat output
>than electricity input, hence the name of the appliance. Heat is extracted
>from outside air thru an evaporastor coil that operates at a lower temperature
>than the outside air and actually draws heat from outdoors.
The argument I was expecting to get was something of the 'toaster
painted black, sitting in the sun' variety, but this argument (and
yours) was why I specified that my statement applied to items powered
solely by electricity (unlike a heat pump, and, I have learned, a
dehumidifier).
jim rozen
>Last time I measured it, I got 18 drops/ml, so slightly less perhaps.
>(this is from memory, and it was a while ago)
Hmm, I seem to recall from titrations in HS chemistry that one
drop was about 1ml. Could my memory be faulty?
What were we talking about?
jim rozen
>Now, in really humid conditions, typical dehumidifers are rated to
>remove 40 l per day, not 1 l.
Yep, go back and read my correction in an earlier post.
During damp season the drain hose is putting out about
1 drop per second, which translates roughly into 75 liters
per 24 hours.
So depending on the electrical load, (600w sounds low to
me) the heat of condesation could be either equal to
the electrical draw, or slightly larger even.
I cannot find the nameplate on the unit - and the manual
does not have the exact numbers for current draw, other
than to say it must be plugged into its own 15 amp
outlet.
Dave Martindale
>But I still
>think that thing draws more like 1kw, which would
>bring then closer togther.
I measured ours. It runs at 6 A. That's 720 VA. If we assume the
power factor is 0.8 (the only load is two motors, compressor and fan),
that gives 576 W.
Ours is rated at 40 l/day. If yours is really doing 75 l/day, it probably
is a larger unit drawing more power.
Dave
DoN. Nichols
jim rozen <jim_m...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>In article <1019418251.11141....@news.demon.co.uk>, Ian says...
>
>>Last time I measured it, I got 18 drops/ml, so slightly less perhaps.
>>(this is from memory, and it was a while ago)
>
>Hmm, I seem to recall from titrations in HS chemistry that one
>drop was about 1ml. Could my memory be faulty?
I suspect that the volume of a drop is a function of the radius
of the surface from which it detaches. The smaller the radius, the less
water it takes to break free and fall as a drop. (Just as electrostatic
discharge will happen first from the sharpest point on the surface.
Remember the teardrop-shaped things used to demonstrate this in
high-school physics class?
I suspect that the radius of the nozzles on the titration tubes
was designed to *make* each drop be about 1ml. As I remember, they had
a rather rounded surface on the end of the nozzle.
So -- unless you are always dripping from the same physical
point, and with always the same surface tension (which water from a
dehumidifer should be, as it is pretty close to distilled water), you
can't really predict the volume in a typical drop.
Enjoy,
DoN.
--
Email: <dnic...@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
js...@blargh.wpi.edu
DoN. Nichols <dnic...@d-and-d.com> wrote:
>In article <a9vgf...@drn.newsguy.com>,
>jim rozen <jim_m...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>>In article <1019418251.11141....@news.demon.co.uk>, Ian says...
>>
>>>Last time I measured it, I got 18 drops/ml, so slightly less perhaps.
>>>(this is from memory, and it was a while ago)
>>
>>Hmm, I seem to recall from titrations in HS chemistry that one
>>drop was about 1ml. Could my memory be faulty?
>
> I suspect that the volume of a drop is a function of the radius
>of the surface from which it detaches. The smaller the radius, the less
>water it takes to break free and fall as a drop. (Just as electrostatic
>discharge will happen first from the sharpest point on the surface.
>Remember the teardrop-shaped things used to demonstrate this in
>high-school physics class?
>
> I suspect that the radius of the nozzles on the titration tubes
>was designed to *make* each drop be about 1ml. As I remember, they had
>a rather rounded surface on the end of the nozzle.
>
If 1ml is 1cc, then that would be one heck of a drop...
-- Joe
--
Joseph M. Krzeszewski Mechanical Engineering and stuff
js...@wpi.edu Jack of All Trades, Master of None... Yet
jim rozen
> If yours is really doing 75 l/day, it probably
>is a larger unit drawing more power.
The jury is still out on that. All I can say is, it is
one drop per second. I need to get ahold of a small
graduated cylinder and an eye dropper....
DoN. Nichols
>In article <a9vuqr$25o$1...@izalco.d-and-d.com>,
>DoN. Nichols <dnic...@d-and-d.com> wrote:
[ ... ]
>> I suspect that the radius of the nozzles on the titration tubes
>>was designed to *make* each drop be about 1ml. As I remember, they had
>>a rather rounded surface on the end of the nozzle.
>>
>
>If 1ml is 1cc, then that would be one heck of a drop...
You're right. Some of our recent rainstorms have had drops
about that big, but otherwise you would have to work to get one that
big. I think that I could do it, but do I *want* to? :-)
DoN. Nichols
jim rozen <jim_m...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>In article <a9vq04$naf$1...@trappist.cs.ubc.ca>, da...@cs.ubc.ca says...
>
>> If yours is really doing 75 l/day, it probably
>>is a larger unit drawing more power.
>
>The jury is still out on that. All I can say is, it is
>one drop per second. I need to get ahold of a small
>graduated cylinder and an eye dropper....
Nope -- not an eye dropper. Use the graduated cylinder to
collect the drops from the dehumidifier, and count the number which fall
in. There is no bet that the drops from an eye dropper would be the
same size.
js...@blargh.wpi.edu
DoN. Nichols <dnic...@d-and-d.com> wrote:
>In article <aa008s$h66$1...@Blargh.wpi.edu>, <js...@Blargh.wpi.edu> wrote:
>>In article <a9vuqr$25o$1...@izalco.d-and-d.com>,
>>DoN. Nichols <dnic...@d-and-d.com> wrote:
>
> [ ... ]
>
>>> I suspect that the radius of the nozzles on the titration tubes
>>>was designed to *make* each drop be about 1ml. As I remember, they had
>>>a rather rounded surface on the end of the nozzle.
>>>
>>
>>If 1ml is 1cc, then that would be one heck of a drop...
>
> You're right. Some of our recent rainstorms have had drops
>about that big, but otherwise you would have to work to get one that
>big. I think that I could do it, but do I *want* to? :-)
>
> Enjoy,
> DoN.
>
Imagine if you will a squirt gun designed to fling a 1cc slug of water at
some unsuspecting (dry) target. Should be better than a supersoaker.
The real question is how do you stop it from dribbling out the barrel
without resorting to Jello...
jim rozen
>>If 1ml is 1cc, then that would be one heck of a drop...
>
> You're right. Some of our recent rainstorms have had drops
>about that big, but otherwise you would have to work to get one that
>big. I think that I could do it, but do I *want* to? :-)
As I said, apparently a defect in my memory. Hey, it
was a pretty long time ago. I do however remember that
the volume of one drop was really only determined by
the surface tension effects, and was really quite
consistent.
Ian Stirling
>
> In article <aa00qs$2nk$1...@izalco.d-and-d.com>,
> DoN. Nichols <dnic...@d-and-d.com> wrote:
>>In article <aa008s$h66$1...@Blargh.wpi.edu>, <js...@Blargh.wpi.edu> wrote:
>>>In article <a9vuqr$25o$1...@izalco.d-and-d.com>,
>>>DoN. Nichols <dnic...@d-and-d.com> wrote:
>>
>> [ ... ]
>>
>>>> I suspect that the radius of the nozzles on the titration tubes
>>>>was designed to *make* each drop be about 1ml. As I remember, they had
>>>>a rather rounded surface on the end of the nozzle.
>>>If 1ml is 1cc, then that would be one heck of a drop...
>> You're right. Some of our recent rainstorms have had drops
>>about that big, but otherwise you would have to work to get one that
>>big. I think that I could do it, but do I *want* to? :-)
> Imagine if you will a squirt gun designed to fling a 1cc slug of water at
> some unsuspecting (dry) target. Should be better than a supersoaker.
>
> The real question is how do you stop it from dribbling out the barrel
> without resorting to Jello...
Simple.
Freeze it :)
--
http://inquisitor.i.am/ | mailto:inqui...@i.am | Ian Stirling.
---------------------------+-------------------------+--------------------------
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in a rather scornfull tone, "It means
Just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -- Lewis Carrol
Ole-Hjalmar Kristensen
Mike Graham <mi...@metalmangler.com> writes:
> It seems like every year around this time I ask this question. What
> do you do about spring humidity rusting your machine tools?
>
> I have gotten *much* better. I oil them religiously. I cover them
> with sheets. I built an enclosure for them and insulated it. I
> haven't done the weatherstripping yet, but I put a small heater in
> there before I left to go out of town for a couple of days, and I came
> back last night to find a near-disaster.
> The stuff outside of the enclosure like the bandsaws and whatnot are
> in horrible shape with heavy, scaly rust on the machined surfaces.
> All in two days!
> The precision stuff isn't as bad, but this is still pissing me off.
> The ways of the lathe had patches of light rust here and there. I had
> wiped them clean and then oiled them before I left. I had taken off
> the chuck and stored it in the cabinet. That turned out to be a Bad
> Idea (tm) because it was in far worse shape than the rest of the
> lathe, though the rust is all on the body surface, so it doesn't
> matter. I had put the cam-lock wrench in the spindle so that the
> sheet was tented up above the toolpost, which helped *it*, but the
> handwheels and other surfaces which have had the paint worn off over
> the years have all rusted.
>
> Yes, I'm going to paint the paintable areas.
> Even got the colour picked out - it's a somewhat rare colour made by
> Tremclad, and it's called Possum Satin. I kid you not.
>
> Anyway, 30 seconds with the scotch-brite fixed the chuck, and the
> rust on the lathe ways wiped off with a cloth, for the most part.
>
> I haven't yet had the courage to take the sheet off of the
> Bridgeport.
>
> I know that LPS-3 is wonderful stuff, and I use it on tractors and
> whatnot that are being stored for a season, but I just can't see using
> something that thick and waxy on precision ways.
>
> What works to prevent rust, but doesn't interfere with the use of
> the tool?
>
> Heat isn't the best answer, because it can get humid in warm
> weather, too. That was the problem this spring - wickedly high temps.
> It got to almost 30C, here (about 85F) which is ridiculous for this
> time of year. The condensation was unbelieveable. The concrete floor
> of the shop is all dark with moisture, and the steel on the racks is
> running with water.
>
> Once I have the enclosure sealed up and it's rational to do so, I'll
> put a heater in set to a bit below room temperature. That should
> reduce the effects, anyway, but I'm still hoping for a 'silver bullet'
> that will solve the problem.
>
> On reflection, I suppose a dehumidifier would be helpful. How big a
> one would you need for a 16x24' room with 8' ceilings? That's the
> size of the machining enclosure.. the rest of the shop can't be
> climatically controlled in a reasonably economical fashion, but the
> enclosure has walls insulated to R20 and the ceiling is R30, with the
> plastic moisture barrier, but until I get the cracks filled, it won't
> really be moisture proof in any meaningful sense. The enclosure
> shares the same bare concrete floor as the rest of the shop.
Ned Simmons
says...
> In article <a9vgf...@drn.newsguy.com>,
> jim rozen <jim_m...@newsguy.com> wrote:
> >In article <1019418251.11141....@news.demon.co.uk>, Ian says...
> >
> >>Last time I measured it, I got 18 drops/ml, so slightly less perhaps.
> >>(this is from memory, and it was a while ago)
> >
> >Hmm, I seem to recall from titrations in HS chemistry that one
> >drop was about 1ml. Could my memory be faulty?
>
>
> was designed to *make* each drop be about 1ml.
1ml would be mighty big drop. 1ml = 1cc, or a sphere about 1/2" in
diameter.
Ned Simmons
Orrin Iseminger
<mi...@metalmangler.com> wrote:
Snip
>
> I've got one of those regular ceramic element heaters that I use to
>take the edge off. I have a woodstove in there, too, and I've been
>known to use propane heaters when it's *really* cold.
If the propane heater is not vented to outdoors, it can create a
moisure problem. When propane burns it produces carbon dioxide and
water vapor.
Orrin Iseminger
<"machini$t"@ohioweb.net> wrote:
>Try Boeshield. Sailors love the stuff, and their environment is a lot
>harder on steel. Practical Sailor did a comparison a while back on this
>stuff. Anhydrous lanolin rated pretty well, too. As far as the gun stuff
>goes, I've used RIG with good results.
>
>Machini$t
Where can a person buy Boeshield?
TIA
Orrin
Orrin Iseminger
one milliliter. Eighteen might be closer to exact, but the math works
more easily with twenty.
Orrin
On 21 Apr 2002 16:03:23 -0700, jim rozen <jim_m...@newsguy.com>
wrote:
>In article <1019418251.11141....@news.demon.co.uk>, Ian says...
Gerald Miller
wrote:
>In article <aa008s$h66$1...@Blargh.wpi.edu>, <js...@Blargh.wpi.edu> wrote:
>>In article <a9vuqr$25o$1...@izalco.d-and-d.com>,
>>DoN. Nichols <dnic...@d-and-d.com> wrote:
>
> [ ... ]
>
>>> I suspect that the radius of the nozzles on the titration tubes
>>>was designed to *make* each drop be about 1ml. As I remember, they had
>>>a rather rounded surface on the end of the nozzle.
>>>
>>
>>If 1ml is 1cc, then that would be one heck of a drop...
>
> You're right. Some of our recent rainstorms have had drops
>about that big, but otherwise you would have to work to get one that
>big. I think that I could do it, but do I *want* to? :-)
>
> Enjoy,
> DoN.
Latest research from the Forest City, using a modified insulin
injection syringe ( designed to give puppy her thrice daily dose of
expectorant ) one millilitre, or, for the old fogeys (me, in
particular), one cubic centimetre, is made up of 13 to 15 1/2 drops of
medium temperature, filtered, chlorinated, Lake Huron water.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada
Gerald Miller
>
>The real question is how do you stop it from dribbling out the barrel
>without resorting to Jello...
>
>-- Joe
Did you really have to ask this one?
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada
Mark Denovich
water / 1mL.
--Mark
Gerald Miller
>Back in my Science Olympiad days, I remember there being 20 drops of
>water / 1mL.
>
>>
>> Latest research from the Forest City, using a modified insulin
>> injection syringe ( designed to give puppy her thrice daily dose of
>> expectorant ) one millilitre, or, for the old fogeys (me, in
>> particular), one cubic centimetre, is made up of 13 to 15 1/2 drops of
>> medium temperature, filtered, chlorinated, Lake Huron water.
>> Gerry :-)}
>> London, Canada
Could be that the water here has more or less additives giving less
holding power, or maybe all my "junk" in the basement has increased
the force of gravity in my kitchen <BG>
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada
Stan Schaefer
>
> Has anybody had experience with a product called 'Extend?'
> You're supposed to paint it onto rusty metal and supposedly
> it reacts with the rust and forms a tough skin sealing the
> effected area.
Yeah, it's a phosphate-forming chemical with a latex base. Supposed
to be painted over. The stuff I had was intended for automotive
applications and wasn't as good as getting down to base metal,
rewelding/repairing where necessary and using automotive primer and
finish coat. The treated and repainted areas started rusting again
almost immediately. Was a big waste of time since I had to do the
grinding/sanding/painting anyway. No miracle cure here and certainly
not for machine tool working surfaces.
As far as the original problem, LPS 3 is what I use for long-term
storage, LPS 2 will give a lot of protection without the waxy residue
that LPS 3 has, won't last as long is all. I've used Boeshield on
some of my woodworking equipment, as far as I can see, it's no better
or worse than LPS 3 and costs about twice as much. Smells a little
better.
Stan
DoN. Nichols
How about a comparison of the radius of the tips in the two
sources?
Mike Graham
wrote:
>Good old 90W gear grease is pretty good stuff, but it's a bit sticky-
>might not be the best for machine tools. What about the aerosol dry
>lubricants? Graphite and such, would that help any?
I wouldn't expect a dry lube to help on an oily surface, but if I
wiped them down first then maybe it would.
DoN. Nichols
Mike Graham <mi...@metalmangler.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 19 Apr 2002 13:58:37 -0400, "John" <eaotis...@cbpu.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Good old 90W gear grease is pretty good stuff, but it's a bit sticky-
>>might not be the best for machine tools. What about the aerosol dry
>>lubricants? Graphite and such, would that help any?
>
> I wouldn't expect a dry lube to help on an oily surface, but if I
>wiped them down first then maybe it would.
And I *particularly* would not expect it to help prevent rust.
Its purpose is to help things slide better, not seal the surface away
from oxygen and moisture.
Mike Graham
wrote:
> And I *particularly* would not expect it to help prevent rust.
>Its purpose is to help things slide better, not seal the surface away
>from oxygen and moisture.
I would have said the same thing, except that somebody mentioned in
this thread some kind of dry lube / rust protection stuff for tablesaw
tables and whatnot, so I was keeping my options open. Just in case.
8-)
Ken Simmons
because homeowners buy them, put them inside the house and then decide they
are "noisy". I have had no problems in Georgia summers with this setup.
Literally keeps my powder dry, not to mention the machine tools.
The water is as good as distilled for batteries also. Enjoy...Ken
"Mike Graham" <mi...@metalmangler.com> wrote in message
news:8qfjcukvdnrrfofp5...@4ax.com...
Robert Salasidis
wrote:
In the suimmer I keep an air conditioner on at all times - to keep a
low humidity sort of environemnt. In the winter - electrical heating
keeps the shop at 18 deg Celcius (about 65 deg F)
>
>
>Mike Graham wrote:
>>
>> It seems like every year around this time I ask this question. What
>> do you do about spring humidity rusting your machine tools?
>
>Mike,
> My first shop was two lawn building put together so the internal area
>was 14 X 28, on a concrete slab. I tried wood heat but that seemed to
>really aggravate the problem. I then put foam insulation on the inside
>surfaces of the roof so it wouldn't "rain" on my equipment, the
>condensation made it do that. That was the key to stopping it, not the
>foam but the realization that the machines were forming condensate on
>all exposed surfaces. I built a new all steel shop with fiberglass
>insulation, installed an oil stove to average out the temperature and
>the problems all went away. The stove is thermostatically controlled
>24-7, the temperature never gets down to the dew point inside.
>Glen