Electrical questions
Gunner Asch
the electrical..and am running into a snag...
The mill has 2 motors..a 2 speed/6 wire motor for the spindle and a
stock 3 wire for the table feeds
Of course..all are 240 volt, 3ph
Ive got a bunch of drum switches and various relays and as I was sitting
down to do a wiring diagram..I realized...that the spindle motor was
going to need a form C relay or switch. Dont have one. Shit..well..I
have one..but its a 100 amp..and is about the size of a poodle.
Well..sniff..I cant stick that in a cabinet, now can I?
I think..think..the spindle is 2hp, the knee motor is probably 1/2hp
The issues.....I need to bring in 3 wires AND reverse two of them for
the knee...standard reversing switch/contactor should work for that. It
would be nice if I could shut power to the knee off totally..but cant
with a standard reversing contactor..damnit. I can with a drum switch.
Poop.
The biggie is the spindle motor. Anyone got a form "C" ..normally
open/normaly closed, 3 ph, 2-3 hp, contactor kicking around collecting
dust?
Id like to avoid using 3 drum switchs plus a switch for the coolant.
There is not a lot of places I can hang em.
Spindle motor has high and low..and I need to be able to reverse 2 of
the input leads for forward and reverse. So Im going to need (1)
reversing switch and a form 'C' switch (High/Low) just to run the
spindle. Im sure Ive got reversing contactors....but so far I cant
find a 3 phase C contactor in my gear. Lots of single phase...sigh.
I can stick a cabinet on the side of the mill and remote a set of low
voltage switches to a small can on the knee or on top of the arbor
support
Anyone got one, or a CHEAP source? Probably 12 amps..maybe 9....2.2-3kw
Thanks
Gunner
"I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the
means. I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not
making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of
it. In my youth I travelled much, and I observed in different
countries, that the more public provisions were made for the
poor the less they provided for themselves, and of course became
poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the
more they did for themselves, and became richer." -- Benjamin
Franklin, /The Encouragement of Idleness/, 1766
Gunner Asch
wrote:
Anyone have any better ideas on how to do this?
There has to be a better way.
Gunner Asch
wrote:
Hummmm pondering this more...I could use 2 seperate relays, with a
single SPDT switch, center off....couldnt I....hummm.......reversing
relay to change wiring before feeding both relays.....hummmmmmm
Jim Stewart
> Ok...got the Larios Horizontal mill all painted and now its time to do
> the electrical..and am running into a snag...
>
>
> The mill has 2 motors..a 2 speed/6 wire motor for the spindle and a
> stock 3 wire for the table feeds
>
> Of course..all are 240 volt, 3ph
>
> Ive got a bunch of drum switches and various relays and as I was sitting
> down to do a wiring diagram..I realized...that the spindle motor was
> going to need a form C relay or switch. Dont have one. Shit..well..I
> have one..but its a 100 amp..and is about the size of a poodle.
> Well..sniff..I cant stick that in a cabinet, now can I?
Been there. Found out that a 2 hp VFD is cheaper
than a 2 speed 3 phase reversing switch. I chose
the VFD.
Gunner Asch
wrote:
>Gunner Asch wrote:
>> Ok...got the Larios Horizontal mill all painted and now its time to do
>> the electrical..and am running into a snag...
>>
>>
>> The mill has 2 motors..a 2 speed/6 wire motor for the spindle and a
>> stock 3 wire for the table feeds
>>
>> Of course..all are 240 volt, 3ph
>>
>> Ive got a bunch of drum switches and various relays and as I was sitting
>> down to do a wiring diagram..I realized...that the spindle motor was
>> going to need a form C relay or switch. Dont have one. Shit..well..I
>> have one..but its a 100 amp..and is about the size of a poodle.
>> Well..sniff..I cant stick that in a cabinet, now can I?
>
>Been there. Found out that a 2 hp VFD is cheaper
>than a 2 speed 3 phase reversing switch. I chose
>the VFD.\
That would mean I would also need a new motor.
Gunner
Jim Stewart
> On Mon, 04 Jan 2010 09:44:55 -0800, Jim Stewart <jste...@jkmicro.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Gunner Asch wrote:
>>> Ok...got the Larios Horizontal mill all painted and now its time to do
>>> the electrical..and am running into a snag...
>>>
>>>
>>> The mill has 2 motors..a 2 speed/6 wire motor for the spindle and a
>>> stock 3 wire for the table feeds
>>>
>>> Of course..all are 240 volt, 3ph
>>>
>>> Ive got a bunch of drum switches and various relays and as I was sitting
>>> down to do a wiring diagram..I realized...that the spindle motor was
>>> going to need a form C relay or switch. Dont have one. Shit..well..I
>>> have one..but its a 100 amp..and is about the size of a poodle.
>>> Well..sniff..I cant stick that in a cabinet, now can I?
>> Been there. Found out that a 2 hp VFD is cheaper
>> than a 2 speed 3 phase reversing switch. I chose
>> the VFD.\
>
> That would mean I would also need a new motor.
Why? I used the old motor on my mill. Worked fine.
Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
news:4cc4k5551vira6aar...@4ax.com:
> That would mean I would also need a new motor.
>
> Gunner
>
No... hard-wire it for high speed, and use the VFD to control it.
LLoyd
Ignoramus20205
In the case of my "old to me" Clausing lathe, I could not do so
because the motor had 220v only insulation which leaked current. If it
was capable of being run by a VFD, that would have been the way to
go. Gunner's mill seems to be of old vintage too, so he may have the
same issue.
i
Gunner Asch
wrote:
Because my motor has two sets of windings..a high speed and a low speed
set. Not been reading?
Gunner
Gunner Asch
Hummm..that is a thought. Though wiring it for low speed might be
better. How often does one run a horizontal mill at 945 rpm?..or double
the low speed freq?
Jim Stewart
Wire it for low speed, program the VFD for max frequency
of 100-120 Hz. Worked for me, and yes, I've been reading.
Half-nutz
Wire it for low speed, for max torque.
Run the VFD up to 120-180 Hertz to get up to the top speed. Or more
HZ. At 120 Hz you are running the motor at rated speed, although on
the low speed windings ( Sort of)
A two pole motor may have a N and S pole facing each other.
A four pole motor would have N and N facing each other, and at 90
degrees, S and S poles facing each other..
The two speed motors work having two or four poles. ( but two pole
windings)
IIRC the four pole (low speed) operation is interesting, in that a
pole pair is forced by the back iron.
Not sure how to explain, good reading if interested.
Basically, two opposing windings are both south poles ( for example)
but pitched (spaced)far enough apart that a North pole appears between
them from the back iron..
IOW a two pole motor can be forced to look like a four pole motor by
reversing opposing poles, and thus forcing alternate poles in between
them.
So with two windings, but with a narrower pitch to the coil, you can
have either a two or a four pole field, with the back iron forming the
third and fourth poles.
Anyway I said it was interesting how they did it.
Jim Stewart
I don't believe there is such a thing as a high and low
speed set of windings. I think they are all used for
both speeds, but rearranged to double or halve the effective
number of poles in the motor.
Gunner Asch
wrote:
Hummm....interesting. Im going to have to study up on these sorts of
motors a bit more.
Thanks!
Gunner
Jim Stewart
Gunner Asch
wrote:
Hey..Thanks!! Bookmarked for close reading!!
Gunner
d...@kbrx.com
coil for $10.xx. Get a couple and drive them with a dinky toggle
switch or two.
Hul
John R. Carroll
Perhaps you cold drop in on the professional rebuilders in the
Taft/Bakersfield area.
There are several.
Have a look in your local Yellow Pages directory.
They all have experience and have been trained on both mechanical and
electrical hardware.
>
> Thanks!
No Prob.
What you really need is a Boat Anchor guy.
--
John R. Carroll
Wes
>> Because my motor has two sets of windings..a high speed and a low speed
>> set. Not been reading?
>
>I don't believe there is such a thing as a high and low
>speed set of windings. I think they are all used for
>both speeds, but rearranged to double or halve the effective
>number of poles in the motor.
>
If it is like most CNC's with 'electronic' gearing, you have the connections to configure
the motor as delta or wye. That is how they get the high and low.
Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller
Brian Lawson
SNIP
>If it is like most CNC's with 'electronic' gearing, you have the connections to configure
>the motor as delta or wye. That is how they get the high and low.
>
>Wes
Hey Wes,
Ummmm....not really. I'm assuming that the discussion here is about
squirrel-cage types. A 2-speed motor is just that. And star-delta
is a method of limiting start-up currents, or rather, reducing
run-speed current, and is not a "speed changing" scheme. The motor
wants to run at its synchronous speed. Many motors run star only, or
delta only, depending on the application. The field windings are the
same for either one.
2-speed on the other hand is just that, using two different sets of
field windings, commonly to provide a 4:1 ratio. For most I've seen
the available torque is reduced on the slower speed, unless it is a
"special purpose" type.
Lots of 2-speed motors are wound-rotor, and therefore can be used as
universal. These can have variable speed, rather than just 2-speed,
but often are set up to operate as just 2-speed.
Take care. Happy New Year.
Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.
Wes
>On Mon, 04 Jan 2010 19:19:42 -0500, Wes <clu...@lycos.com> wrote:
>
>SNIP
>>If it is like most CNC's with 'electronic' gearing, you have the connections to configure
>>the motor as delta or wye. That is how they get the high and low.
>>
>>Wes
>
>Hey Wes,
>
>Ummmm....not really. I'm assuming that the discussion here is about
>squirrel-cage types. A 2-speed motor is just that. And star-delta
>is a method of limiting start-up currents, or rather, reducing
>run-speed current, and is not a "speed changing" scheme. The motor
>wants to run at its synchronous speed. Many motors run star only, or
>delta only, depending on the application. The field windings are the
>same for either one.
[snip]
http://www.cncmagazine.com/archive01/v2i07/v2i07i.htm
Damn. You are right thanks for clearing that misconception from my mind.
Thanks,
Wes
Robert Swinney
classed "constant horsepower". All of them utilize stator windings in which the number of poles is
changed, usually 2 pole and 4 pole. Star-delta and delta-star configurations account for the
constant HP and/or constant torque designs.
Bob Swinney
"Brian Lawson" <law...@ciaccess.com> wrote in message
news:27n5k517gd9qljou4...@4ax.com...
Wes
>Take care. Happy New Year.
>
>Brian Lawson,
>Bothwell, Ontario.
How was Vegas? Did you see Hoover Dam?
Wes
DoN. Nichols
> Ok...got the Larios Horizontal mill all painted and now its time to do
> the electrical..and am running into a snag...
[ ... ]
> Poop.
>
> The biggie is the spindle motor. Anyone got a form "C" ..normally
> open/normaly closed, 3 ph, 2-3 hp, contactor kicking around collecting
> dust?
[ ... ]
> Spindle motor has high and low..and I need to be able to reverse 2 of
> the input leads for forward and reverse. So Im going to need (1)
> reversing switch and a form 'C' switch (High/Low) just to run the
> spindle. Im sure Ive got reversing contactors....but so far I cant
> find a 3 phase C contactor in my gear. Lots of single phase...sigh.
Use two contactors on the output of the reversing contactor or
drum switch -- with the two contactors controlled by a form C toggle
switch. Ideally, you want a switch which will force a pause while
switching from one to the other, so you don't wind up powering both
windings at the same time. I would use one of the pull-to-unlock
military arming toggle switches for the selection of speed.
> I can stick a cabinet on the side of the mill and remote a set of low
> voltage switches to a small can on the knee or on top of the arbor
> support
One low voltage switch for the speed selection. You can use a
full drum switch for the forward/reverse switch -- or to control the
reversing contactor (which probably is a latching style).
> Anyone got one, or a CHEAP source? Probably 12 amps..maybe 9....2.2-3kw
Nope.
Good Luck,
DoN.
--
Email: <dnic...@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
Brian Lawson
Hey Wes,
Thanks for asking. We did go to see the Hoover Dam, in fact on
Christmas Day!! And while there were no tours available due to the
Holiday, there was a lotta lotta lotta people doing what we were doing
too !!! I have been at THE Dam a couple of times before, but my new
daughter-in-law had not and she was amazed, mostly at the sheer drop
on the "dry" side, although at present it's a bit hard to tell which
"side" that is due to the Lake Mead water levels at the dam and as far
as you can see being about 150 feet below "normal". And WOWWWW!!!
that's a LOTTA water, or not water in this case.
I was most interested to see the completed new bridge, only to find it
more interesting in that it is not complete yet, and so the means and
methods of construction are readily visible, albeit from about 1/4
mile distant. Ummmm...that's not quite true, in that the "old road"
to the west side of THE Dam allllmmmmmooooossstttt does a tight U-turn
right under one span of the new bridge. One thing for sure, it will
certainly speed up the "thru" traffic in the area, as now there is a
"9/11" security inspection on the approaches that slows down traffic
as much as the "gawkers" do on the very winding existing road.
Vegas was a Christmas Present for the kids, so Dad here was picking up
the whole shot except the one-arm (now button pusher) bandits. 4 bucks
for a coffee in Vegas was a bit much. So I was paying over 45 bucks
for breakfasts and minimum $150 plus tip for dinners for the 4 of us.
That's OK on a one time, but 5 days worth is getting expensive for
this old retiree. I've got better things to spend my money on!! Lotsa
things that were complimentary the last time we were there are now a
profit maker, as the Vegas 2008 income was down 12% over 2007, and
2009 probably wasn't much better. And you can't walk down "the strip"
at any time that some greasy looking group isn't handing out call-girl
cards, most of which end up on the sidewalks. The city should charge
them for clean-ups!! And we had expected to take in a few "shows",
but the prices are as Steve B. suggested in his pre-Xmas email advice.
Seemed to run about $ 130 per head, and I balked at that and we didn't
see any. And long line-ups for almost everything, and my knees are
pretty good, but not that pretty good to stand in any line for an hour
or more.
We had nice rooms at Bally's though. That I would recommend to anyone
going. Ask for a room with a "Strip view".
So, if it was the first time I had been there, I would say "I've been
to Vegas twice. The first time, and the last time!!" No plans to go
again. Maybe do Carlsbad next time.
Take care. Happy New YEar.
Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.
Cliff
>Ive got a bunch of drum switches and various relays
Found your problem.
http://ludost.net/humor/200311/jpg4yEEYIEreM.jpg
http://ludost.net/humor/200311/jpgEwOcOFtltY.jpg
http://ludost.net/humor/200311/jpgRURLtORULE.jpg
HTH
--
Cliff
Cliff
>The biggie is the spindle motor. Anyone got a form "C"
Why don't you go BUY one?
You are, after all, going to sell this to someone at a nice profit
and probably, at best, paid scrap metal price for the rest.
--
Cliff
Cliff
>On Mon, 04 Jan 2010 12:41:11 -0600, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
><lloydspinsidemindspring.com> wrote:
>
>>Gunner Asch <gun...@lightspeed.net> fired this volley in
>>news:4cc4k5551vira6aar...@4ax.com:
>>
>>> That would mean I would also need a new motor.
>>>
>>> Gunner
>>>
>>
>>No... hard-wire it for high speed, and use the VFD to control it.
>>
>>LLoyd
>
>
>Hummm..that is a thought. Though wiring it for low speed might be
>better. How often does one run a horizontal mill at 945 rpm?..or double
>the low speed freq?
Ask a *machinist*.
Or someone that knows about machines.
<Sheesh>.
--
Cliff