Toyota gas pedal
TwoGuns
one in the TV Broadcast business a CLUELESS FUCKING IDIOT?
Four people died in an accident in a Toyota. The 911 call was played
on air. Evidently the throttle pedal had gotten caught under a floor
mat and the 911 caller was applying brakes but could not stop. The
Toyota with four people crashed at an intersection killing the
occupants. The 911 call lasted for several seconds and the dispatcher
did not tell the driver to put the car in NEUTRAL.
PUT THE FUCKING TRANNY IN NEUTRAL and then apply brakes. Is that too
hard to comprehend? CBS should be sued for not telling their audience
the proper way to react to a situation like this.
DL
Jim Stewart
> Watching the CBS evening news this evening I have to wonder is every
> one in the TV Broadcast business a CLUELESS FUCKING IDIOT?
>
> Four people died in an accident in a Toyota. The 911 call was played
> on air. Evidently the throttle pedal had gotten caught under a floor
> mat and the 911 caller was applying brakes but could not stop. The
> Toyota with four people crashed at an intersection killing the
> occupants. The 911 call lasted for several seconds and the dispatcher
> did not tell the driver to put the car in NEUTRAL.
I've had the misfortune of calling 911 a few times
over the last 30 years. My experience is that the
dispatchers are rote trained to dispatch and nothing
else. It probably never entered the dispatcher's
mind to solve the problem if he/she had never been
trained to.
> PUT THE FUCKING TRANNY IN NEUTRAL and then apply brakes. Is that too
> hard to comprehend? CBS should be sued for not telling their audience
> the proper way to react to a situation like this.
No quarrel there. I think in most cars, a *hard*
*sustained* braking effort would probably also
work. Both feet on the pedal and don't let up
until it grinds to a stop.
Pilgrim
<ab7d41ec-e0f8-4c11...@h14g2000pri.googlegroups.com>,
TwoGuns <R-D-L...@neb.rr.com> wrote:
The driver was also an off duty CHP officer, ???????
What training do they get?
CP
Christopher Tidy
Or just switch off the engine.
Chris
Jim Wilkins
wrote:
> >
> Or just switch off the engine.
>
> Chris
In a panic it would be difficult to switch it one faint click to kill
the engine, and not two clicks and lock the steering.
jsw
TwoGuns
wrote:
Just switching off the engine WILL NOT WORK with the steering column
locks on almost all cars since 1975 or so. I'm sure you said that and
hit send before thinking about it Chris.
DL
Joe Pfeiffer
There's an "ignition off, lock not on yet" position. But as somebody
else pointed out, trying to get that position in those circumstances
would be asking a lot.
--
As we enjoy great advantages from the inventions of others, we should
be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours;
and this we should do freely and generously. (Benjamin Franklin)
Ignoramus20054
a Ford Taurus back then. I had about 1-2 seconds to think about it.
My solution was to turn off the engine with the key.
I almost shit my pants, as this happened in a parking lot full of
people.
i
Gunner Asch
On some cars..oddly enough..you cant do that when its in gear.
Which I thought was very counter safety
Gunner
"Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone.
I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout"
Unknown Usnet Poster
Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls.
Keyton
Christopher Tidy
<snip>
>>Just switching off the engine WILL NOT WORK with the steering column
>>locks on almost all cars since 1975 or so. I'm sure you said that and
>>hit send before thinking about it Chris.
>
>
> There's an "ignition off, lock not on yet" position. But as somebody
> else pointed out, trying to get that position in those circumstances
> would be asking a lot.
I did think about it, briefly. Can't say as I've ever tried it.
Automatic cars are uncommon here. Having a clutch pedal makes the answer
obvious. Without it, turning off the engine was my gut reaction. Maybe
not the best one, but a step in the right direction. Better than calling
911 on your mobile phone, I'd say.
By the way, Joe, did you get the message I sent about the database
project? Your suggestions were helpful; sorry it took me a long time to
reply.
Best wishes,
Chris
David Lesher
>> PUT THE FUCKING TRANNY IN NEUTRAL and then apply brakes. Is that too
>> hard to comprehend? CBS should be sued for not telling their audience
>> the proper way to react to a situation like this.
>Or just switch off the engine.
That was not the only crash; just the best reported.
As has been detailed:
A) It was a loaner car; so he was not familiar with it.
B) It had a "keyless ignition" -- to "switch off the engine" you had to
HOLD the START button down for several seconds. Sorta like Windoze.
C) It was some "clutchless" transmission with gates that kept you from
moving into the "wrong" gear. It's not clear where neutral really was.
The issue I see is changing standard expected user interfaces without
enough training. B) is especially stoopid.
Suppose we suddenly made all the stop buttons in your shop green; and
reversed the thread on the chuck, and the lead screws...think you might
have an issue under pressure?
--
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
Joe Pfeiffer
>>
>>Or just switch off the engine.
>>
>>Chris
>
>
> On some cars..oddly enough..you cant do that when its in gear.
>
> Which I thought was very counter safety
I've never seen that -- I've seen many (in fact, I think it's standard)
in which you can't turn the key far enough to remove it with the
transmission in gear, but not one you can't turn off.
David Lesher
>Just switching off the engine WILL NOT WORK with the steering column
>locks on almost all cars since 1975 or so. I'm sure you said that and
>hit send before thinking about it Chris.
?? Every car I've worked on goes (ccw direction)
d) start
c) run
b) stop
a) remove keys/lock wheel.
with A blocked until you are in park.
But this car had NO key; just the keyless ignition button.
Beryl
> TwoGuns <R-D-L...@neb.rr.com> writes:
>
>> On Nov 25, 6:13 pm, Christopher Tidy <cdt22NOS...@cantabgold.net>
>> wrote:
>>> TwoGuns wrote:
>>>> Watching the CBS evening news this evening I have to wonder is every
>>>> one in the TV Broadcast business a CLUELESS FUCKING IDIOT?
They're blonde, attractive, can read and speak in front of a camera.
>>>> Four people died in an accident in a Toyota. The 911 call was played
>>>> on air. Evidently the throttle pedal had gotten caught under a floor
>>>> mat and the 911 caller was applying brakes but could not stop. The
>>>> Toyota with four people crashed at an intersection killing the
>>>> occupants. The 911 call lasted for several seconds and the dispatcher
>>>> did not tell the driver to put the car in NEUTRAL.
>>>> PUT THE FUCKING TRANNY IN NEUTRAL and then apply brakes. Is that too
>>>> hard to comprehend? CBS should be sued for not telling their audience
>>>> the proper way to react to a situation like this.
>>> Or just switch off the engine.
>>>
>>> Chris
>> Just switching off the engine WILL NOT WORK with the steering column
>> locks on almost all cars since 1975 or so. I'm sure you said that and
>> hit send before thinking about it Chris.
>
> There's an "ignition off, lock not on yet" position. But as somebody
> else pointed out, trying to get that position in those circumstances
> would be asking a lot.
According to an L.A. Times article, some Toyotas/Lexii use a Start
button rather than key position. That button has to be pushed and held
for about 4 seconds to kill the ignition. Repeatedly pushing the button
while panicking won't do it.
I think the accident car was a loaner. The driver may not have been
sufficiently familiar with it.
Christopher Tidy
> Christopher Tidy <cdt22...@cantabgold.net> writes:
>
>
>>>PUT THE FUCKING TRANNY IN NEUTRAL and then apply brakes. Is that too
>>>hard to comprehend? CBS should be sued for not telling their audience
>>>the proper way to react to a situation like this.
>>
>
>>Or just switch off the engine.
>
>
> That was not the only crash; just the best reported.
>
> As has been detailed:
>
> A) It was a loaner car; so he was not familiar with it.
>
> B) It had a "keyless ignition" -- to "switch off the engine" you had to
> HOLD the START button down for several seconds. Sorta like Windoze.
>
> C) It was some "clutchless" transmission with gates that kept you from
> moving into the "wrong" gear. It's not clear where neutral really was.
>
> The issue I see is changing standard expected user interfaces without
> enough training. B) is especially stoopid.
>
> Suppose we suddenly made all the stop buttons in your shop green; and
> reversed the thread on the chuck, and the lead screws...think you might
> have an issue under pressure?
If the car was really that perversely designed, I don't blame the poor
guy. As I see it, your only remaining option is to figure out a way to
pull up the pedal. For once, maybe a lawsuit is deserved.
Or if you're Gunner, you take out your piece and shoot the engine :-).
Chris
CalifBill
"TwoGuns" <R-D-L...@neb.rr.com> wrote in message
news:6e4017bb-c465-4a2a...@h14g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
DL
The engine will turn off on any car I have owned with the car in gear.
Unless the shift is in park, you can not lock the steering wheel. The fact
he was a CHP officer makes it seem we have some really stupid cops.
cavelamb
> TwoGuns <R-D-L...@neb.rr.com> writes:
>
>
>> Just switching off the engine WILL NOT WORK with the steering column
>> locks on almost all cars since 1975 or so. I'm sure you said that and
>> hit send before thinking about it Chris.
>
> ?? Every car I've worked on goes (ccw direction)
>
> d) start
> c) run
> b) stop
> a) remove keys/lock wheel.
>
> with A blocked until you are in park.
>
> But this car had NO key; just the keyless ignition button.
>
"Tuen off the engine, Hal!"
Bill Noble
car could not be shifted into neutral, and to turn the ignition off required
holding a particular button down for (if I remember) 90 seconds - there was
no key to turn to make it go off -
"TwoGuns" <R-D-L...@neb.rr.com> wrote in message
news:ab7d41ec-e0f8-4c11...@h14g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
cavelamb
> before you call the dead idiots, perhaps you could check your facts -
> the car could not be shifted into neutral, and to turn the ignition off
> required holding a particular button down for (if I remember) 90 seconds
> - there was no key to turn to make it go off -
There are going to be some heavy law suits over that...
Betcha
Bill Noble
"cavelamb" <cave...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:joWdnZG4ts53rZPW...@earthlink.com...
probably, but lawsuits don't bring back the dead. One advantage of driving
a standard transmission car is that there is almost nothing that can prevent
you from disconnecting the engine from the drive train - you have both a
clutch and a shift lever (and the skill to use them).
Wes
>The engine will turn off on any car I have owned with the car in gear.
>Unless the shift is in park, you can not lock the steering wheel. The fact
>he was a CHP officer makes it seem we have some really stupid cops.
On my car, I have to put it into park before the ignition lock will activate.
Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller
Gunner Asch
With a handgun..unfortunately that seldom works. Rifles..might take a
couple 3-4 shots to hit something that would kill the engine.
Erik
"Bill Noble" <nob...@nowhere.invalid> wrote:
Ahhh... but with some sticks you can be surprised by the occasional
busted clutch cable.
I don't have one, but understand the emergency shutdown procedure for
Toyota products equipped with the start/stop button is to depress and
continuously hold this button for over 3 seconds. No amount of
'stabbing' at it will initiate a shutdown. The owners manuals supposedly
have a good bit on this subject, and suggest not actually doing an
emergency shutdown unless condition warrant.
Also, I hear Toyota products with the start/stop buttons are 'drive by
wire', at least as far as opening and closing of the actual throttle
valve is concerned. There is no direct pedal linkage or cable
assembly... the throttle is actuated via an electric actuator/servo
unit, controlled by the ECM.
Rumor on the street, and supposedly reported by numerous drivers is that
throttles are occasionally being opened to various degrees,
un-commanded, and irrespective of pedal position... due to ECM or
actuator/servo assembly failure is unknown. The carpets may or may not
even be involved and/or could possibly be a secondary issue altogether.
Word also has the NHTSA dismissing a lot of complaints stating them to
be 'driver error'... without even an investigation. Pretty sad if it's
true... I suspect it is for some reason.
If this weren't bad enough, last night I hear Toyota has now a new
separate issue with the Tundra. Seems they sent out a recall telling
owners to pull down their spare tires, and keep them in the bed till
further notice. Something to do with retaining the spare is failing in
areas where roads are salted, and spares are being released onto the
roadway.
Erik
Wes
>With a handgun..unfortunately that seldom works. Rifles..might take a
>couple 3-4 shots to hit something that would kill the engine.
And you would be deaf as a stone.
Wes
--
The only thing Obama has fixed is Carter's reputation.
Robert Roland
<nob...@nowhere.invalid> wrote:
>car could not be shifted into neutral
You're KIDDING??
I'd really like to hear the reasoning behind that design decision.
Where I live, we have icy roads for several months of the year. Being
able to quickly go to neutral (or stomp the clutch for manual
transmissions) is vital when trying to recover from a slide.
--
RoRo
Lewis Hartswick
there is an ignition switch that if turned off stops
the motor??????? Just how STUPID can people be? Do
they expect the GOVERNMENT to do it for them??????
...lew...
Stormin Mormon
power steering and power brakes. But at least you don't have
the engine pulling you to your death.
What happened to toe under the gas pedal, and pull up? I
learned that one in high school driver ed.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"Christopher Tidy" <cdt22...@cantabgold.net> wrote in
message news:4B0DC837...@cantabgold.net...
ATP*
"Erik" <sp...@this.com> wrote in message
news:spam-377ED2.0...@news.dslextreme.com...
> If this weren't bad enough, last night I hear Toyota has now a new
> separate issue with the Tundra. Seems they sent out a recall telling
> owners to pull down their spare tires, and keep them in the bed till
> further notice. Something to do with retaining the spare is failing in
> areas where roads are salted, and spares are being released onto the
> roadway.
>
> Erik
The Tundras have significant corrosion problems.
wmbjk...@citlink.net
<ignoram...@NOSPAM.20054.invalid> wrote:
Happened to me as well. '69 Pontiac IIRC. One of the infamous small
block/delaminating engine mount/auto full-throttle models. I was
stopped and waiting to make a left turn across 2 lanes of traffic and
into a parking lot. When my opening came I stepped on the gas and the
peddle sucked itself to the floor. Definitely got my attention. By the
time the car crossed the curb line into the parking lot my hand was on
the ignition switch. With both feet on the brake and struggling to
steer as the engine died, I was stopped before I got very far into the
lot. I believe that the instinct to kill the engine comes from having
some affinity with mechanical things, something that few have anymore.
These days many people's first instinct would be to hit the Onstar
button. ;-) Check this out for my favorite example of where "a car
is just another appliance" attitude is taking us.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbX_I_lrmIc
Wayne
Bill Noble
"Lewis Hartswick" <lhart...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:PbidnTMrl9wPD5PW...@earthlink.com...
let's try this again R E A L S L O W L Y for those who weren't or
didn't want to listen - there is NO ignition switch that acts like you say
on this car, there is NO WAY to select neutral under full throttle, and
there is solid evidence that the fault can be caused by software or
something other than the rug - If there had been a traditional ignition
switch, the passengers and driver would be alive. If there had been a
traditional mechanical linkage to the transmission, the passengers and
driver would be alive. These issues with Toyota go back a number of years,
and as some others are pointing out, have been denied by Toyota and by NTSB
despite significant evidence of a problem - if the dead had not included a
CHP officer and if the 911 call had not been made, the denial would be
continuing.
Let us talk about the elimination of safety features, or the complexity of a
modern vehicle that makes it possible for such things to happen, and quit
calling the dead stupid for being unable to override the system when there
was no override available.
TwoGuns
> "TwoGuns" <R-D-Lora...@neb.rr.com> wrote in message
I know some cars that will lock the steering column if you turn the
ignition switch off. The first time I ever heard of this was when I
bought a used 76 VW Rabbit. The very first thing the previous owner
told me about the car when he handed me the keys was a warning about
trying to turn the switch to off while moving. He had a throttle cable
stick and put the tranny in neutral. When the engine revved to redline
he switched the ignition off. The steering column locked and started
veering to the left. He managed to get the steering wheel lock
disengaged before running head on into traffic in the other lane.
I tested three cars of family members and they all would let you lock
the steering column while in a gear other than PARK.. These were a 93
Lumina, 2006 Taurus and a 2001 Gallant. Maybe it is time to
standardize control layouts om cars like they did to motorcycles a few
years ago.
DL
***************************************************************************************
David R.Birch
> With a handgun..unfortunately that seldom works. Rifles..might take a
> couple 3-4 shots to hit something that would kill the engine.
>
> Gunner
I have some black tipped 30'06 that probably would work w/ one shot.
David
Wes
>I have some black tipped 30'06 that probably would work w/ one shot.
Don't let Sarah know.
Bill Noble
"TwoGuns" <R-D-L...@neb.rr.com> wrote in message
news:ecf961fa-12a4-495d...@g22g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Nov 25, 11:40 pm, "CalifBill" <bmckees...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>> "TwoGuns" <R-D-Lora...@neb.rr.com> wrote in message
>>
Every car I own that has a steering wheel lock will let you turn the key off
and remove it while the car is in gear
Bruce L. Bergman
<nob...@nowhere.invalid> wrote:
>news:ab7d41ec-e0f8-4c11...@h14g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
>> Watching the CBS evening news this evening I have to wonder is every
>> one in the TV Broadcast business a CLUELESS FUCKING IDIOT?
>>
>> Four people died in an accident in a Toyota. The 911 call was played
>> on air. Evidently the throttle pedal had gotten caught under a floor
>> mat and the 911 caller was applying brakes but could not stop. The
>> Toyota with four people crashed at an intersection killing the
>> occupants. The 911 call lasted for several seconds and the dispatcher
>> did not tell the driver to put the car in NEUTRAL.
>>
>> PUT THE FUCKING TRANNY IN NEUTRAL and then apply brakes. Is that too
>> hard to comprehend? CBS should be sued for not telling their audience
>> the proper way to react to a situation like this.
>
>before you call the dead idiots, perhaps you could check your facts - the
>car could not be shifted into neutral, and to turn the ignition off required
>holding a particular button down for (if I remember) 90 seconds - there was
>no key to turn to make it go off -
Cars long ago stopped being simple mechanical devices, and turned into
complex industrial equipment - they need to start applying the
standard industrial equipment design rules to them.
On the Lexus SUV incident with the Off Duty CHP Officer and family,
that was a dealer service loaner that the driver was NOT familiar
with, it had all the fancy goodies that are suspect in these failures.
The ignition system on those is a Security Key Fob in your pocket or
purse that activates the door locks, and allows you to push a green
"Engine Start" button on the dash - no key. You have to push and hold
the "Start" button for IIRC four seconds for it to turn the ignition
back off.
Any industrial design person would have placed a Big Red Button on
the dashboard clearly marked "Engine Stop" - even if it has a flip-up
bump cover so you can't hit it accidentally. And no time delay - NOW.
The shifter is something fancy with paddles to step through the
gears on some cars, and yes there should be a clearly marked control
or button for Neutral...
I thought that was covered by the FMVSS rules on controls
standardization in the late 1960's that got us away from a dozen
different auto-tranny shift patterns and toward the unified P-R-N-D-L
pattern, and the restrictor gate system so you can't slam straight
through to Park without stopping at Neutral first...
And eventually led to the "Press brake pedal to shift out of
Neutral" interlocks...
And away from odd push-pull-twist controls to the Multi-Function Stalk
with the lights wiper and turn signals all on one easy to break arm.
People are saying "The steering wheel will lock if you turn off the
key!" - NOT if you only go one click back to turn off the ignition.
And on most cars it should be interlocked to NOT go to Lock till the
shifter is in Park. (Yes, there are exceptions. Can't protect
everyone from everything.)
Everyone claims "Pedal Misapplication" - these cars have a "Fly By
Wire" throttle with a pedal sensor telling the ECU computer what the
driver wants, and an integrated Cruise Control. I'm betting we have a
systems failure there somewhere, and the computer goes "Full throttle?
Sure, Boss!"
There are claims of "You can stop it with the brakes, even if the
engine is at full throttle..." BULLSHIT. An expert driver maybe,
immediate problem recognition, both feet mashing on the brakes for all
you are worth, and swing it straight to the shoulder. And it's going
to feel like you just went 9 rounds with Muhammad Ali.
But if you can't pull off the stop right this moment, and arent a big
strong guy with the brute leg strength to fight a V-8 and win, it
won't take long to heat-soak the brakes till they fade to nothing.
And then you have no chance at all - even if you get the engine shut
down, you still have to deal with 'no brakes' from the heat fade.
They need a brake pressure sensor input goiing to the computer - if
the brake pedal pressure is are over 25 lbs., ignore the throttle.
They want to stop.
RULE: Conflicting control inputs should invoke a Fail Safe.
Replacing the floormats and modifying the gas pedal is a classic Red
Herring. The problem is deeper, and allowing them to Mesmerize you
with a fake fix isn't helping anything.
--<< Bruce >>--
Ignoramus17202
proper (read ergonomic and idiot proof) car design, when it comes to
stuck gas pedals. As someone who experienced this situation, I
sympathize with all others who had it.
My proposed solution would be to detect when gas AND brake pedals are
engaged simultaneously, and perform the following:
1) Disengage the transmission
2) Ignore the gas pedal signal and treat it as not depressed at all.
These two things can cure those dangerous situations.
I agree also that any car, no matter how "smart", should have a very
easy means of killing the engine NO MATTER WHAT.
i
Gunner Asch
>Gunner Asch <gun...@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> wrote:
>
>>With a handgun..unfortunately that seldom works. Rifles..might take a
>>couple 3-4 shots to hit something that would kill the engine.
>
>
>And you would be deaf as a stone.
>
>Wes
Huh?
<G>
Stormin Mormon
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"Bruce L. Bergman" <bruceNOSP...@gmail.com> wrote in
message news:kqgtg590fpr51jopt...@4ax.com...
oldjag
wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 23:26:09 -0800, "Bill Noble"
>
>
>
> <nob...@nowhere.invalid> wrote:
As the control systems become more and more complex, ie fly by wire,
stability control, traction control, ABS, automatic braking etc. the
potential for software screw ups becomes more and more interesting. I
would imagine it would be next to impossible to design the software on
the Radar/Auto Braking used on some of the new Benz's to not cause
unintended results in some circumstances. At least in a fighter jet
you can bail out if the fly by wire quits.
How would anyone even know if a given crash was caused by an incorrect
stability control intervention? What happens if the car is
incorrectly serviced or non OEM parts are installed 10 years down the
road?
In any case, most cars have brake torque well in excess of what the
engine can produce, except for perhaps some older muscle cars with
drum brakes and big blocks, but in a panic I guess anything can
happen. My '67 Jaguar E type had a bad motor mount when I first
bought it. This allowed the throttle arms on the triple carbs. to jam
on the frame tube, (mainly only at, or close to wide open throttle).
My dad had a wild ride in reverse when he decided to take the car one
day. Not sure why, but he goosed it hard in reverse, the throttle
jammed and he wound up in the neighbors front yard. If the throttles
had not popped shut when he went over the curb at the street, the car
would have wound up in the neighbors house. Left two nice black
stripes down the driveway, broke an exhaust connection, but no damage
otherwise. He said he never got his foot on the brake until he was in
the neighbors yard. The driveway was 180 feet long..
Erik
Ignoramus17202 <ignoram...@NOSPAM.17202.invalid> wrote:
I agree, and it should be obvious to anyone how to do it, even under
duress.
Conflicting control input disengagement systems are in the works... and
I suspect will need some critical thought too... remember, there is
still a significant percentage of the population who still exclusively
brake with their left foot.
Also, If the transmission is disengaged as in '1)' above, it won't later
be available to assist with compression breaking.
If the gas petal signal input is just ignored as in '2)' above, it won't
stop a runaway due to ECM or actuator failure holding a throttle valve
open.
I think the system should shut down the ignition, fuel injection and
fuel pump.
Come to think if it, there may be a little more to think of. The driver
who shuts down with a wide open throttle, then pumps the brakes several
times will also be presented with a no power brake boost issue... as the
open throttle won't allow the creation of manifold vacuum. (Much the
same deal for the driver fighting a running runaway, little vacuum
available then as well, and if the brakes are pumped, there goes the
brake booster's remaining stored vacuum reserve...)
Which brings us to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake-by-wire
Just make ya wanna drink...
There are 'drive by wire' and 'electronic throttle control' articles as
well:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drive_by_wire
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_throttle_control
Erik
Gunner Asch
wrote:
Almost true. Get an old engine some time and shoot up half a box of
it..and check how little damage you actually did.
Ive done it a number of times..and its damned surprising how little
damage you actually do. And Ive done it with a running engine about half
of those times.
When one shoots to stop a moving vehicle..shoot the driver.
Gerald Miller
wrote:
>TwoGuns wrote:
>> Watching the CBS evening news this evening I have to wonder is every
>> one in the TV Broadcast business a CLUELESS FUCKING IDIOT?
>>
>> Four people died in an accident in a Toyota. The 911 call was played
>> on air. Evidently the throttle pedal had gotten caught under a floor
>> mat and the 911 caller was applying brakes but could not stop. The
>> Toyota with four people crashed at an intersection killing the
>> occupants. The 911 call lasted for several seconds and the dispatcher
>> did not tell the driver to put the car in NEUTRAL.
>
>I've had the misfortune of calling 911 a few times
>over the last 30 years. My experience is that the
>dispatchers are rote trained to dispatch and nothing
>else. It probably never entered the dispatcher's
>mind to solve the problem if he/she had never been
>trained to.
>
>> PUT THE FUCKING TRANNY IN NEUTRAL and then apply brakes. Is that too
>> hard to comprehend? CBS should be sued for not telling their audience
>> the proper way to react to a situation like this.
>
>No quarrel there. I think in most cars, a *hard*
>*sustained* braking effort would probably also
>work. Both feet on the pedal and don't let up
>until it grinds to a stop.
20+ years ago, I rode the brakes on a '84 Citation for about 5 miles,
through a freeway exit, to a major uphill grade where I was able to
kick it out of suicide mode. I never did figure out what the problem
was, just refused to drive that particular piece of crap again!
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada
Cydrome Leader
I completely agree. I've made devices that have left/right controls and if
you try to do both at once, they cut each other out and stop because if
you're trying to do both at once, something is very wrong.
If these cars are really fly by wire, do they really lack any sort of
sensor on what the mechanical brake pedal is doing? ABS stuff has to know
when you're really trying to brake.
Lewis Hartswick
> let's try this again R E A L S L O W L Y for those who weren't or
> didn't want to listen - there is NO ignition switch that acts like you
> say on this car,
It's (almost) impossible for me to believe that there are both
engineers and government agencies that would permit such a thing
to exist. How is it possible??????
>
> Let us talk about the elimination of safety features, or the complexity
> of a modern vehicle that makes it possible for such things to happen,
> and quit calling the dead stupid for being unable to override the system
> when there was no override available.
In that case the only "stupid" event that I can think of is
driving such a vehicle. Sorry but even a short contemplation
of doing so should cause one to break out in a cold sweat.
Ignoramus17202
Do you have any links to articles that explore this in detail?
I shudder to think what would happen if I could not turn off my Taurus
back then. Someone would end up dead, very possibly it would not even
be me.
thanks
i
Erik
> Do you have any links to articles that explore this in detail?
>
> I shudder to think what would happen if I could not turn off my Taurus
> back then. Someone would end up dead, very possibly it would not even
> be me.
>
> thanks
>
> i
Try these for starters... there are MANY more, go Googling a while to
see for yourself.
Erik
__________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drive_by_wire
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_throttle_control
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake-by-wire
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-toyota-recall26-2009nov26,0,7792141
,full.story
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2009/11/is-toyota-st
ill-endangering-its-owners-with-a-floor-mat-recall-solution-that-doesnt-g
o-far-enough/1
http://kansascity.injuryboard.com/automobile-accidents/toyota-sudden-acce
leration-recall-company-focuses-on-wrong-problem.aspx?googleid=275014
Ignoramus17202
through them now.
i
pyotr filipivich
or about Thu, 26 Nov 2009 14:49:53 -0800 did write/type or cause to
appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
>On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 10:20:20 -0600, "David R.Birch" <dbi...@wi.rr.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Gunner Asch wrote:
>>
>>> With a handgun..unfortunately that seldom works. Rifles..might take a
>>> couple 3-4 shots to hit something that would kill the engine.
>>>
>>> Gunner
>>
>>I have some black tipped 30'06 that probably would work w/ one shot.
>>
>>David
>
>Almost true. Get an old engine some time and shoot up half a box of
>it..and check how little damage you actually did.
>
>Ive done it a number of times..and its damned surprising how little
>damage you actually do. And Ive done it with a running engine about half
>of those times.
Like people, engines are weird - something which should seem a
problem stops them dead.
Then sometimes, you can blow a hole in the crankcase, as the
piston comes loose from the crankshaft, with the bottom of the piston
rod hanging off the wires, and it still will run. Not as well on
three cylinders, but enough to get home and to the shop the next day.
Deranged English car with deranged English mechanic. His story, look
him up. I think he's now in California.
>
>When one shoots to stop a moving vehicle..shoot the driver.
At the least, the breaking glass might distract him.
Shooting the engine might kill it - eventually. But it will take
a while to 'bleed out'.
-
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!
Bill Noble
"Bruce L. Bergman" <bruceNOSP...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:kqgtg590fpr51jopt...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 23:26:09 -0800, "Bill Noble"
snip ----
>
> They need a brake pressure sensor input goiing to the computer - if
> the brake pedal pressure is are over 25 lbs., ignore the throttle.
> They want to stop.
>
> RULE: Conflicting control inputs should invoke a Fail Safe.
>
> Replacing the floormats and modifying the gas pedal is a classic Red
> Herring. The problem is deeper, and allowing them to Mesmerize you
> with a fake fix isn't helping anything.
>
> --<< Bruce >>--
agree - there is both denial at Toyota, and a lack of safety concern - when
I designed safety critical systems that had software, I always assumed as
part of the design that the software would do whatever the worst thing was
(or worse things) and then made sure that there was a way to make the system
safe even when the software did that stuff. Your examples are what I would
call a "reasonableness check" - I also agree that all vehicles should have
at least 3 positive ways of removing power from the drive train - in a
manual transmission, the clutch does the trick, as does the shift lever, and
a traditional ignition switch. an automatic would require a kill switch,
fuel cutoff or other means. Since most cars have an electric fuel pump,
stopping the pump will stop the car in short order so that is a possibility.
If I had one of the affected Toyotas, or anything with a lot of software
control, I'd add a manual switch that could interrupt power to the fuel pump
or to the engine computer - either one will work, though the fuel pump will
probably be easier and less likely to cause side effects.
Bill Noble
section? I don't remember) on toyota, it's problem with acceleration and
it's problem with frame corrosion in the Tundras - it quotes someone saying
that they were so intent on growth that they forgot quality. Sounds like
GM of the 60s through 80s.... maybe we will start selling US made cars again
"Ignoramus17202" <ignoram...@NOSPAM.17202.invalid> wrote in message
news:9ZadnSGyxoJa6pLW...@giganews.com...
David Lesher
>before you call the dead idiots, perhaps you could check your facts - the
>car could not be shifted into neutral, and to turn the ignition off required
>holding a particular button down for (if I remember) 90 seconds - there was
>no key to turn to make it go off -
4 sec.
If he'd thought of it, he could have tossed the RFID keys out the window...
Get them far enough away and it stops.
--
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
David Lesher
>On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 04:53:04 +0000, Christopher Tidy
>>Or if you're Gunner, you take out your piece and shoot the engine :-).
>>
>>Chris
>With a handgun..unfortunately that seldom works. Rifles..might take a
>couple 3-4 shots to hit something that would kill the engine.
Depends where the ignition computer is mounted...
Gunner Asch
<wb8...@panix.com> wrote:
>Gunner Asch <gun...@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> writes:
>
>>On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 04:53:04 +0000, Christopher Tidy
>>>Or if you're Gunner, you take out your piece and shoot the engine :-).
>>>
>>>Chris
>
>
>>With a handgun..unfortunately that seldom works. Rifles..might take a
>>couple 3-4 shots to hit something that would kill the engine.
>
>
>Depends where the ignition computer is mounted...
Indeed. So one cannot simply "shoot the front of the vehicle" a few
times and stop it with any reliablity.
Do you know where the computer of that car/truck that is aimed at you
in anger? And is the motor in the way..if its in the passenger side?
and is it verticle or horizontal? And is it behind a number of steel
members that could easily deflect the bullet?
Shoot the driver. Its a clear target.
<G>
Jim Wilkins
That assumes the pedal sensors are giving the correct output. Their
wiring and connectors are high on the list of potential malfunctions,
and although out-of-range sensor detection is simple, choosing a
proper response isn't. Would you want the brakes to jam on while you
were cornering on a wet mountain road, entering the freeway or barely
beating a red light?
Unless you have your hand on a big rheostat control lever all electric
vehicles use remote electronic throttle control, and some like the
Segway steer and brake electronically as well. Unfortunately I can't
pursue this line of discussion further, but I share the concern and do
what I can to make them safer.
jsw
Bill Noble
"Jim Wilkins" <kb1...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:16ab0966-2666-452e...@n35g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
> On Nov 26, 2:49 pm, Ignoramus17202 <ignoramus17...@NOSPAM.
> 17202.invalid> wrote:
>> Bruce, I liked your write up, but I have a much simpler solution to
>> proper (read ergonomic and idiot proof) car design, when it comes to
>> stuck gas pedals. As someone who experienced this situation, I
>> sympathize with all others who had it.
>>
>> My proposed solution would be to detect when gas AND brake pedals are
>> engaged simultaneously, and perform the following:
>>
>> 1) Disengage the transmission
>> 2) Ignore the gas pedal signal and treat it as not depressed at all.
>>
>> These two things can cure those dangerous situations.
>>
>> I agree also that any car, no matter how "smart", should have a very
>> easy means of killing the engine NO MATTER WHAT.
>>
>> I
beware - this logic would probably be implemented via software, and as one
who has in the past worked with safety critical systems, a software lockup
is one thing to suspect - from a safety design point of view, an override
that requries no software of any kind, and operates through separate wires
and switches is needed.
Jim Wilkins
> "Jim Wilkins" <kb1...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> beware - this logic would probably be implemented via software, and as one
> who has in the past worked with safety critical systems, a software lockup
> is one thing to suspect - from a safety design point of view, an override
> that requries no software of any kind, and operates through separate wires
The connection between the batteries, drive bridge and motors needs to
be short and as low in resistance as reasonably possible. The
components you might use to break that connection have their own
failure modes, FETs can short and mechanical relays contacts can weld
closed, mercury relays are TOO DANGEROUS FOR OUR CHILDREN. I'ved
worked on designs that had an SCR across the load to blow ("crowbar")
the main fuse, but that solution isn't perfect either. Even a big
knife switch can weld and stick. I'm told the electric motor control
panel on an old Diesel sub was a dangerous duty station.
jsw
Ignoramus11641
> On Nov 26, 2:49?pm, Ignoramus17202 <ignoramus17...@NOSPAM.
> 17202.invalid> wrote:
>> Bruce, I liked your write up, but I have a much simpler solution to
>> proper (read ergonomic and idiot proof) car design, when it comes to
>> stuck gas pedals. As someone who experienced this situation, I
>> sympathize with all others who had it.
>>
>> My proposed solution would be to detect when gas AND brake pedals are
>> engaged simultaneously, and perform the following:
>>
>> 1) Disengage the transmission
>> 2) Ignore the gas pedal signal and treat it as not depressed at all.
>>
>> These two things can cure those dangerous situations.
>>
>> I agree also that any car, no matter how "smart", should have a very
>> easy means of killing the engine NO MATTER WHAT.
>>
>> i
>
> That assumes the pedal sensors are giving the correct output. Their
> wiring and connectors are high on the list of potential malfunctions,
> and although out-of-range sensor detection is simple, choosing a
> proper response isn't. Would you want the brakes to jam on while you
> were cornering on a wet mountain road, entering the freeway or barely
> beating a red light?
That's not great, but what is the alternative to stopping the car when
a brake is sensed as actuated?
i
> Unless you have your hand on a big rheostat control lever all
> electric vehicles use remote electronic throttle control, and some
> like the Segway steer and brake electronically as
> well. Unfortunately I can't pursue this line of discussion further,
> but I share the concern and do what I can to make them safer.
i
Jim Stewart
An explosive squib firing a contained blade
through one of the conductors. First cost
probably a lot less than an airbag.
This technique was used on Pershing surface
to surface missiles to implement an emergency
power off.
Jim Wilkins
>
> That's not great, but what is the alternative to stopping the car when
> a brake is sensed as actuated?
>
> i
A demonstrably reliable mechanical or hydraulic emergency brake that
can overpower the motors long enough to stop???
http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-9670835-1.html
Of course skis and skates don't have brakes either, but they aren't
dangerous.
If I had an airtight answer to this problem I'd patent it and get rich
rather than revealing it here.
jsw
Bill McKee
"David Lesher" <wb8...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:heo0ed$5k8$1...@reader1.panix.com...
> "Bill Noble" <nob...@nowhere.invalid> writes:
>
>>before you call the dead idiots, perhaps you could check your facts - the
>>car could not be shifted into neutral, and to turn the ignition off
>>required
>>holding a particular button down for (if I remember) 90 seconds - there
>>was
>>no key to turn to make it go off -
>
> 4 sec.
>
> If he'd thought of it, he could have tossed the RFID keys out the
> window...
>
> Get them far enough away and it stops.
>
>
Nope, the car keeps running. But when you turn in off, can not restart.
Learned this the hard way on wifes Venza. Dropped her off at the library
and then went to Subway a couple blocks away to get lunch to go. At least
it was only 4 blocks away from the library. Called her on the cell and said
start walking.
Michael A. Terrell
Lewis Hartswick wrote:
>
> Bill Noble wrote:
> > let's try this again R E A L S L O W L Y for those who weren't or
> > didn't want to listen - there is NO ignition switch that acts like you
> > say on this car,
>
> It's (almost) impossible for me to believe that there are both
> engineers and government agencies that would permit such a thing
> to exist. How is it possible??????
It's part of the Democratic health care plan. Kill you off before you
need a doctor. :(
--
The movie 'Deliverance' isn't a documentary!
Christopher Tidy
> This happened to me once (gas pedal stuck under a mat). I was driving
> a Ford Taurus back then. I had about 1-2 seconds to think about it.
>
> My solution was to turn off the engine with the key.
>
> I almost shit my pants, as this happened in a parking lot full of
> people.
Glad it worked for you, Igor. Sounds like my idea wasn't so bad, in a
logically designed vehicle.
Chris
Wes
>This happened to me once (gas pedal stuck under a mat). I was driving
>a Ford Taurus back then. I had about 1-2 seconds to think about it.
>
>My solution was to turn off the engine with the key.
>
>I almost shit my pants, as this happened in a parking lot full of
>people.
>
>i
My 1991 Ranger 4x4 extended cab did the stuck pedal thing quite often. No big deal, 2.9L
of non-performance engine, seldom had me going too fast while I dealt with it. I quick
stomp cleared the problem.
Heck, every time I passed a vehicle a head, my wife at the time, turned off the air
conditioner w/o me having to ask her to do so.
We joked, next truck we are going to get the optional engine.
Now scary would be an electric car with a stuck throttle. Torque out the arse at low rpm.
Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller
Paul Hovnanian P.E.
>
> Bill Noble wrote:
> > let's try this again R E A L S L O W L Y for those who weren't or
> > didn't want to listen - there is NO ignition switch that acts like you
> > say on this car,
>
> It's (almost) impossible for me to believe that there are both
> engineers and government agencies that would permit such a thing
> to exist. How is it possible??????
Because the marketing and style departments can overrule engineering.
Someone else pointed out that there have been efforts (in the past) to
standardize vehicle controls. But evidently when they went to keyless
ignition switches, nobody ever thought to make them work like a key.
Like a knob with an 'ON' and 'OFF' position tht emulate the key switch.
The 'kewl' design departmet insisted on a single button. And they won.
Paddle shifters are another abortion. But that's just me with my 'rock
crusher' tranny and a bigger left leg muscle.
If you want to start a real fight, go over to the auto news group and
ask why US vehicles have not been mandated to use amber turn/red brake
signals. That's a couple of cents saved in colored plastic. But that's
the way the design folks want it, because amber doesn't 'look right'.
--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:Pa...@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you,
then you win. -Gandhi
Paul Hovnanian P.E.
>
[snip]
>
> In any case, most cars have brake torque well in excess of what the
> engine can produce, except for perhaps some older muscle cars with
> drum brakes and big blocks, but in a panic I guess anything can
> happen.
Actually, disc brakes are much more dependant on a boost system than old
drum brakes. They need higher hydraulic pressure. And if you've pumped
the brakes a couple of times (expending the reserve in the vacuum
booster) and the engine is running wide open (low manifold vacuum), the
vacuum is all gone.
> My '67 Jaguar E type had a bad motor mount when I first
> bought it. This allowed the throttle arms on the triple carbs. to jam
> on the frame tube, (mainly only at, or close to wide open throttle).
> My dad had a wild ride in reverse when he decided to take the car one
> day. Not sure why, but he goosed it hard in reverse, the throttle
> jammed and he wound up in the neighbors front yard. If the throttles
> had not popped shut when he went over the curb at the street, the car
> would have wound up in the neighbors house. Left two nice black
> stripes down the driveway, broke an exhaust connection, but no damage
> otherwise. He said he never got his foot on the brake until he was in
> the neighbors yard. The driveway was 180 feet long..
Drum brakes in reverse is a whole other problem ...
--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:Pa...@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
Matter cannot be created or destroyed, nor can it be returned without a
receipt.
Paul Hovnanian P.E.
>
[snip]
>
> When one shoots to stop a moving vehicle..shoot the driver.
That'll just randomize its direction of travel. Engine blocks are what a
Barrett is for.
--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:Pa...@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
c (velocity of light in a vacuum) = 1.8x10^12 furlongs per fortnight
Paul Hovnanian P.E.
>
[snip]
> I don't have one, but understand the emergency shutdown procedure for
> Toyota products equipped with the start/stop button is to depress and
> continuously hold this button for over 3 seconds. No amount of
> 'stabbing' at it will initiate a shutdown. The owners manuals supposedly
> have a good bit on this subject, and suggest not actually doing an
> emergency shutdown unless condition warrant.
Pray tell. What is this strange 'owners manual' thing of which you
speak?
--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:Pa...@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
Sacred cows make the best hamburger. -- Mark Twain
Larry Jaques
<jste...@jkmicro.com> scrawled the following:
>TwoGuns wrote:
>> Watching the CBS evening news this evening I have to wonder is every
>> one in the TV Broadcast business a CLUELESS FUCKING IDIOT?
>>
>> Four people died in an accident in a Toyota. The 911 call was played
>> on air. Evidently the throttle pedal had gotten caught under a floor
>> mat and the 911 caller was applying brakes but could not stop. The
>> Toyota with four people crashed at an intersection killing the
>> occupants. The 911 call lasted for several seconds and the dispatcher
>> did not tell the driver to put the car in NEUTRAL.
>
>I've had the misfortune of calling 911 a few times
>over the last 30 years. My experience is that the
>dispatchers are rote trained to dispatch and nothing
>else. It probably never entered the dispatcher's
>mind to solve the problem if he/she had never been
>trained to.
>
>> PUT THE FUCKING TRANNY IN NEUTRAL and then apply brakes. Is that too
>> hard to comprehend? CBS should be sued for not telling their audience
>> the proper way to react to a situation like this.
>
>No quarrel there. I think in most cars, a *hard*
>*sustained* braking effort would probably also
>work. Both feet on the pedal and don't let up
>until it grinds to a stop.
And whatever you do, don't turn off the ignition to slow the car.
Even if they turn it too far and lock the steering, it's not nearly as
dangerous as WFO.
--
Q: How many climate scientists does it take to change a light bulb?
A: None. There's a consensus that it's going to change, so they've
decided to keep us in the dark.
Larry Jaques
<ignoram...@NOSPAM.20054.invalid> scrawled the following:
>This happened to me once (gas pedal stuck under a mat). I was driving
>a Ford Taurus back then. I had about 1-2 seconds to think about it.
>
>My solution was to turn off the engine with the key.
>
>I almost shit my pants, as this happened in a parking lot full of
>people.
Ditto here, in my 1970 Javelin Mark Donahue Special. My friend said I
spun the manhole cover off and sent it spinning a couple blocks down
the street, but I was busy with the WFO. By the time I hit 3rd, I
could finally (without redlining the 425 horsepower 390) reach up and
switch off the key. Once shut down, it returned to normal and never
locked again. Whew! I stopped about 50' short of the next blvd.
Gunner Asch
<pa...@hovnanian.com> wrote:
>Gunner Asch wrote:
>>
>[snip]
>>
>> When one shoots to stop a moving vehicle..shoot the driver.
>
>That'll just randomize its direction of travel. Engine blocks are what a
>Barrett is for.
True indeed. But its rare that when the driver takes a couple hits to
the chest and head..his foot stays on the gas.
Gunner Asch
<novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 18:53:50 -0600, the infamous Ignoramus20054
><ignoram...@NOSPAM.20054.invalid> scrawled the following:
>
>>This happened to me once (gas pedal stuck under a mat). I was driving
>>a Ford Taurus back then. I had about 1-2 seconds to think about it.
>>
>>My solution was to turn off the engine with the key.
>>
>>I almost shit my pants, as this happened in a parking lot full of
>>people.
>
>Ditto here, in my 1970 Javelin Mark Donahue Special. My friend said I
>spun the manhole cover off and sent it spinning a couple blocks down
>the street, but I was busy with the WFO. By the time I hit 3rd, I
>could finally (without redlining the 425 horsepower 390) reach up and
>switch off the key. Once shut down, it returned to normal and never
>locked again. Whew! I stopped about 50' short of the next blvd.
Never had that happen...well..once..in a big International water truck.
Had an Allison 12speed automatic..and 8000 pounds of water works
boosters in crates on the deck. A very safe explosive..but the 200
blasting caps in the cab with me were a certain concern.
Anyways..was coming down a trail and something "happened"..and the rig
started roaring and speeding and just jumping around going faster and
faster downhill. There was a sharp 90' turn at the bottom and I hit the
jake brake, stomped on the brake pedal as hard as it would go..and Im
going faster and faster and blowing my horn hoping no one would be
driving around that 90' corner and its getting closer and closer and
then I hit the corner and ran right straight through it and wound up
about a mile away from it before the rig shut itself down. There I
was..in the middle of the Great Plains..out in the middle of the biggest
flat spot Id ever seen..but..I was safe. The little hill behind me that
Id come roaring down, had about 20 guys sitting on it, all eating lunch
and paying no attention at all.
Now...brake failures...Ive got a couple nasty stories about
those....brrrrr...
Erik
runaway issue...
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-toyota-throttle29-2009nov29,0,52545
84.story
Erik
Bruce L. Bergman
Precisely - those brilliant <Spit!> engineers didn't want to
possibly inconvenience the driver with the car inadvertently shutting
down on the freeway just because Mom's Purse with the key-fob in it
got thrown to the back of the car by playing children.
And the driver might want the car to stay idling as they walk around
to the tailgate to get something out of the ice chest, or get out to
go close and lock the gates as they leave home - we can't all afford
electric gate operators.
BUT they didn't think through the What If's, the emergency
situations. And I did the first time I saw an advertising slick with
that whiz-bang new Start button, and no Stop button nearby... Deja Vu
to the max.
--<< Bruce >>--
Bruce L. Bergman
Just have to be careful what you cut, and how. You don't want to
damage things in the shudown or start throwing diagnostic codes, so
cutting the fuel pump power is probably safest. Or if you want a
mechanical backup, pull a knob and a cable operated valve shuts off a
ball valve on the fuel line.
On a diesel, the good old fashioned manual air damper works - pull a
lever, cable linkage drops a cork into the air cleaner snout. Very
useful on an engine that has sprung a leak and is ingesting it's own
motor oil and running away.
(Happens often enough to mention on the horizontal Detroits on mid-
engine Crown Coaches. Other than that, the darned things will live
just about forever if you keep fresh oil and grease in them. )
--<< Bruce >>--
Bruce L. Bergman
<lhart...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Bill Noble wrote:
>> let's try this again R E A L S L O W L Y for those who weren't or
>> didn't want to listen - there is NO ignition switch that acts like you
>> say on this car,
>
>It's (almost) impossible for me to believe that there are both
>engineers and government agencies that would permit such a thing
>to exist. How is it possible??????
Some (politician-type) body in charge of the DOT Oversight Committee
probably got greased with a big political contribution (or a "Friends
of Angelo" style deal on a new Lexus) and the rules in the FMVSS were
magically modified to allow it - or they just interpreeted the
existing rules do not apply to the "Start Button" system.
I still have nightmares from my wayward youth, hosteling a dozen
different cars between home and work and friends and neighbors. All
of them with radically different controls placements - Other than the
gas and brakes and sterering wheel, you could not react by reflex,
because inevitabgly you werern't grabbing in the right place.
The headlight dimmer could be in a half dozen places - the new stalk
style, on the floor high and between the gas and brake, down low left
of the brakes, up high left of the brakes, high and waaaaay over to
the left by the sidewall of the motorhome that you had to hunt for...
A dozen different shifters, including Richard's Dodge Dart with the
Pushbutton Fluid Drive, my Corvair Powerglide with the paddle for
R-N-D-L (no park pawl, no Park!) the 67 Dodge 600 chassis Executive
motorhome with a different style cluster shifter, on the tree, on the
floor, six different stick patterns with reverse in odd directions,
one truck with "Three On the Tree", another with a Granny Box 4-speed
on the Tree...
And then there's the parking brakes, operation and location... And
the wiper switch... And the headlights...
It's nice nowadays to only have to grab through two or three spots
before you find the control you want.
>> Let us talk about the elimination of safety features, or the complexity
>> of a modern vehicle that makes it possible for such things to happen,
>> and quit calling the dead stupid for being unable to override the system
>> when there was no override available.
>
>In that case the only "stupid" event that I can think of is
>driving such a vehicle. Sorry but even a short contemplation
>of doing so should cause one to break out in a cold sweat.
Much of this would be solved if they made the new vehicle owner read
the Owners Manual of their new car cover to cover /for comprehension/
- and you have to pass a written mixed Multiple Choice and Essay test,
and a Practical test on basic under-hood maintenance and daily
inspection, before they let you drive it off the lot.
One of the questions on that Lexus-specific test would be "How do
you stop the engine in an emergency?
A: Open the door and drag your feet on the ground
B: Start praying Hail Mary's at the top of your lungs
C: Call the dealer on your cellphone and ask them
D: Press and hold in the Start button for at least four seconds
E: All of the above
Modern automobiles are far too complex for the driver to be totally
and blissfully clueless about their proper operation. In the immortal
words of Dean Vernon Wormer, "Fat Drunk and Stupid is no way to go
through life, son!"
Even if you will call the Auto Club 99% of the time, there will be
that time they are swamped. All drivers should be know what a bad
tire looks like and how to change a flat. Where the jack and spare
are stowed, and check monthly that the spare has air in it...
Know how to do a Circle Of Safety check every time they get in the
car to drive. That alone would eliminate the "Father backs car out of
driveway, runs over child playing in driveway" tragedies.
Do a full daily walk-around check for tail-lights and tires and
leaks, and a full light function check once a week.
Be able to check the fluids under the hood once a week, and the air
in the all tires at least once a month. Know where your Fire
Extinguisher is mounted, how to use it, and how to check the gauge.
Have a stash of 12 road flares and know how to light and safely
place one (NOT in a puddle of gas!), basic hand tools, gloves and
goggles in the trunk.
--<< Bruce >>--
wmbjk...@citlink.net
Aren't these cars push to start, hold down to stop, just like most
computers? Faced with that in an unfamiliar car, and presuming that no
big button labeled "stop" was obvious, I'm pretty sure that the logic
of its operation would be instinctive. But if it wasn't, I'd expect it
to be my job to get out the owner's manual. I suppose one could make a
case that a person could say, borrow one of these cars and drive it
away without ever knowing how to shut it off, and that such a
situation must be prevented. I'm sure there's a way to further
idiot-proof such machines, but no matter how they're changed, a better
idiot will always find a way to defeat the best of intentions.
Consider how many accidents are caused by drivers standing on the gas
pedal when they intended the brake. Expect a LOT more of that with
aging, oft times barely conscious drivers who never did learn to use
their turn signal *before* slowing down.
It's one of my pet peeves that as a society we've accepted that no one
should be counted on to accept responsibility, even for the most
trivial of decisions such as wearing sensible shoes. I fear that the
majority reaction to the case at hand is just another example of
encouraging people to believe that somebody else is always responsible
for every mishap. The irony is that thousands of people who've
complained that cars these days are too difficult and expensive to
repair, will now join the chorus demanding yet another interlock
system taking up an additional page in the owner's manual that they'll
refuse to read. Plus 5 extra pages of the shop manual, which already
costs so much that few individuals can afford it. In case there's
anyone reading who'd like to review a shop manual for a modern
vehicle, here's a link to the one for my car.
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=8WC2QLY0 (300 MB download) For fun, try
to guess how many pages it might be before you scroll through to the
end. Prefer a paper copy? It's about $500 IIRC. We have met the enemy,
and he is us.
Wayne
Jim Wilkins
wrote:
> >
> One of the questions on that Lexus-specific test would be "How do
> you stop the engine in an emergency?
> A: Open the door and drag your feet on the ground
> E: All of the above
F: Jesus Take the Wheel
> Modern automobiles are far too complex for the driver to be totally
> and blissfully clueless about their proper operation.
Ask people if they were taught not to brake while cornering hard.
> Do a full daily walk-around check for tail-lights and tires and
> leaks, and a full light function check once a week.
> --<< Bruce >>--
If I do that in public half the time someone will come over to ask
what's the problem (that I couldn't fix)
I tell them I learned to pre-flight an aircraft and like to do it to
the car, too.
jsw
Bill McKee
<wmbjk...@citlink.net> wrote in message
news:2b43h554225rka1or...@4ax.com...
In gear, and with the brakes applied, the engine turned off as soon as I
pushed the button on the wifes Venza today. Admitted I was not driving 100
miles an hour, was stopped in the Costco parking lot. So if the guy had hit
the start stop button while trying to brake the car, the engine would of
stopped, at least on a new Venza.
wmbjk...@citlink.net
<bmckee...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
According to Toyota, they can be stopped with 150 pounds of force of
the brake pedal. It seems to me that standing on the brake would be
the first instinct of most. Of course in a panic situation there will
always be plenty who won't do the obvious, plus some more who lack the
coordination to do much more than steer.
Wayne
Roger Shoaf
On Nov 25, 7:13 pm, Christopher Tidy <cdt22NOS...@cantabgold.net>
wrote:
> >
> Or just switch off the engine.
>
> Chris
In a panic it would be difficult to switch it one faint click to kill
the engine, and not two clicks and lock the steering.
jsw
On a Toyota you have to push a button to rotate the key to "lock" position.
Other cars have some mechanism top prevent a panic switch off from locking
the steering. On some you need to remove the key, some you need to have the
car in park or some have the button or lever.
--
Roger Shoaf
About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.
Jim Chandler
<R-D-L...@neb.rr.com> wrote:
>Watching the CBS evening news this evening I have to wonder is every
>one in the TV Broadcast business a CLUELESS FUCKING IDIOT?
>
>Four people died in an accident in a Toyota. The 911 call was played
>on air. Evidently the throttle pedal had gotten caught under a floor
>mat and the 911 caller was applying brakes but could not stop. The
>Toyota with four people crashed at an intersection killing the
>occupants. The 911 call lasted for several seconds and the dispatcher
>did not tell the driver to put the car in NEUTRAL.
>
>PUT THE FUCKING TRANNY IN NEUTRAL and then apply brakes. Is that too
>hard to comprehend? CBS should be sued for not telling their audience
>the proper way to react to a situation like this.
>
>DL
How about just turning the key off? That would kill the engine and
the problem would go away. You are correct in your assessment that
everyone in the broadcast business is a clueless idiot. They can't be
bothered to research the subject.
Jim
Jim Chandler
<R-D-L...@neb.rr.com> wrote:
>On Nov 25, 6:13�pm, Christopher Tidy <cdt22NOS...@cantabgold.net>
>wrote:
>> TwoGuns wrote:
>> > Watching the CBS evening news this evening I have to wonder is every
>> > one in the TV Broadcast business a CLUELESS FUCKING IDIOT?
>>
>> > Four people died in an accident in a Toyota. The 911 call was played
>> > on air. Evidently the throttle pedal had gotten caught under a floor
>> > mat and the 911 caller was applying brakes but could not stop. The
>> > Toyota with four people crashed at an intersection killing the
>> > occupants. The 911 call lasted for several seconds and the dispatcher
>> > did not tell the driver to put the car in NEUTRAL.
>>
>> > PUT THE FUCKING TRANNY IN NEUTRAL and then apply brakes. Is that too
>> > hard to comprehend? CBS should be sued for not telling their audience
>> > the proper way to react to a situation like this.
>>
>> Or just switch off the engine.
>>
>> Chris
>
>Just switching off the engine WILL NOT WORK with the steering column
>locks on almost all cars since 1975 or so. I'm sure you said that and
>hit send before thinking about it Chris.
>
>DL
Apparently you are not familiar with the fact that the OFF position is
the first detent out of on and the LOCK is the second and requires the
wheel to be in a certain position to lock. Try it sometime. Turn off
your engine with the wheel turned to one side or the other. It will
not lock until the wheel is turned to a specific spot. Therefore, the
argument that the wheel will lock if you turn off the ignition is not
valid.
Jim
Gunner Asch
Many vehicles these days do NOT use keys. The car in question didnt
have a key..but a "start button"..and to shut it down requires one to
press it for up to 4 seconds.
You just got here..right ?
<G>
Bill Noble
"Jim Chandler" <n4...@gte.net> wrote in message
news:cel5h5dn8di9c6gi0...@4ax.com...
and, mr Jim, perhaps you haven't been reading anything at all about this?
How else could you make the above post - Many journalists DID research the
subject, the links have been posted here, did you not see them?
Stephen B.
> "Bill Noble" <nob...@nowhere.invalid> wrote:
>> probably, but lawsuits don't bring back the dead. One advantage of
>> driving
>> a standard transmission car is that there is almost nothing that
>> can prevent
>> you from disconnecting the engine from the drive train - you have
>> both a
>> clutch and a shift lever (and the skill to use them).
>
>
> Ahhh... but with some sticks you can be surprised by the occasional
> busted clutch cable.
Been there done that it is no problem to push out of gear so one can
stop. The tricky part is knowing how to get home after the stop by
starting in first and then work your way up the gears by RPM matching
so as not to destroy the transmission. Every clutch owner should try
it out before it is absolutely needed.
Stephen B.
Michael A. Terrell
Try getting home when every rivet in the clutch shears off, allowing
the inner steel disk to spin inside the clutch disks.
Joe Pfeiffer
> On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 16:35:26 -0800 (PST), TwoGuns
> <R-D-L...@neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>>Just switching off the engine WILL NOT WORK with the steering column
>>locks on almost all cars since 1975 or so. I'm sure you said that and
>>hit send before thinking about it Chris.
>
> Apparently you are not familiar with the fact that the OFF position is
> the first detent out of on and the LOCK is the second and requires the
> wheel to be in a certain position to lock. Try it sometime. Turn off
> your engine with the wheel turned to one side or the other. It will
> not lock until the wheel is turned to a specific spot. Therefore, the
> argument that the wheel will lock if you turn off the ignition is not
> valid.
Since it turns out the car had a keyless ignition this is losing
relevance, but -- on all the cars I own, you do have to move the wheel
to one of a number of specific spots, but there are enough of them that
normal movement of the wheel to drive down the road would be certain to
hit one (more relevant would be that there is an intermediate key
position).
--
As we enjoy great advantages from the inventions of others, we should
be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours;
and this we should do freely and generously. (Benjamin Franklin)
Joe Pfeiffer
My daughter's solution to that problem was to pull out her cell phone,
"Dad...."
Jim Chandler
So push the bloody button and hold it. Then go have the car modified
back to a saner system. :-)
Jim
Jim Chandler
My post regarding the "journalists" was a general one. How many times
have you seen/heard/read some so-called "journalist" make a statement
on a subject with which you were intimately familiar and noticed that
they didn't know WTF they were talking about? More often than not, I
suspect. The proper course of action here would have been to turn off
the engine, by whatever means necessary for that particular vehicle
and wrestle it to the side of the road. Unfortunately, most drivers
on the road today don't have the mental presence to accomplish this.
Their first reaction is to stomp the brakes and nothing else. The
problem is exacerbated by the fact that drivers today are not taught
to drive. If they have any training at all, it's to turn on the
ignition, put it in gear (automatic) and point it where you want to
go. Since Driver's Ed is no longer taught they haven't the foggiest
about what to do in an emergency. Even in Driver's Ed, they didn't go
into much detail or depth on emergencies. I've had my share (and then
some) of mechanical vehicular failures and have managed to survive
without so much as a scratch on the vehicle. The worst one was a
total brake failure on a 28' "bread" truck that I was driving. I had
just come over the top of a freeway crossing and pushed on the brake
to slow for the approaching lights. The pedal went to the floor and
the truck continued to build speed downhill. My action was to grab
the emergency brake, slam it into first gear and lay on the horn, all
while steering the beast to the side of the road to scrub off speed on
the curb. Turns out that, somehow, the puchrod for the master
cylinder had popped out and therefore there were no brakes. How many
drivers today do you think would have had the presence of mind to do
that? Not many I'd suspect. Fortunately, I've had several years of
emergency vehicle (police car) driving, and dirt track racing
experience to fall back on. A thorough understanding of how my
vehicles work also helps. Too bad that there isn't a requirement for
SOME kind of training prior to obtaining a driver's license. Hell,
most of them today can't even change a tire.
Jim
Bill McKee
"Gunner Asch" <gun...@lightspeed.net> wrote in message
news:h4s5h51t19sbrtq2v...@4ax.com...
Actually you just have to pust the button with the brakes applied. And he
most likely was stomping on the brakes to slow down the car. So he probably
did not push the off button.
Erik
Jim Chandler <n4...@gte.net> wrote:
> Too bad that there isn't a requirement for
> SOME kind of training prior to obtaining a driver's license. Hell,
> most of them today can't even change a tire.
I don't know if it's so or not, but have heard in Sweden you need to
pass an elementary 'automotive mechanical aptitude' test to get a
drivers license.
Simple basic stuff like correct use of jumper cables and putting on the
spare... and if your not physically able, at least be able to correctly
direct someone else in doing so.
Does anyone know if there's any truth to this? Sounds like a good idea
to me.
(An item on my 'list' would be explaining how to restart a fuel injected
engine after it's been run out of fuel... without burning up the
starter, and running down the battery.
How do you do it? On most cars, after adding a little fuel, turn the key
to the 'run' position, wait about 4 seconds then turn it back off.
Repeat 50 or 60 times. Each cycle runs the pump 2 or 3 seconds without
grinding away on the starter. Long vehicles, like limos will require
more cycles.
And how do you do it with a vehicle equipped with a 'start button? I
don't have a clue... probably there is a way to run the fuel pump with a
scan tool or jumper wire, but who knows...)
Erik
Bill Noble
"Jim Chandler" <n4...@gte.net> wrote in message
news:5mi6h51ja2i5o1l7o...@4ax.com...
Noted, but in this case, the driver was a CHP officer, who presumably is
well trained in all these issues.
And, to put a different take on your brake failure - a few decades back I
was driving a 356 down a hill when I noticed torque steer - "this can't be
good" thinks I, so I back off on the gas and start to slow - at that moment
the rear wheel leaves the car, taking the brake drum with it. So, I'm
leaving a nice rooster tail of sparks as the car rides on three wheels and
one shock tower. Press the brakes - nothing (single brake system, not dual
like modern cars) - pull emergency brake - nothing - mechanical
differential, downshift - nothing - there's a differential in the gearbox
and no positraction - so I turned off the ignition to reduce chance of fire
(no steering lock on that car) and rode it out - but, look at the steps I
took - there was NOTHING more to do to slow it down - it finally stopped
when the road leveled out, the shock tower caught in a crack in the freeway
and spun me into the center divider, shortening the car by about 18 inches.
That's a ride I'd rather avoid in the future.
Bill Noble
"Bill McKee" <bmckee...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:0IadnUx52tSdyo7W...@earthlink.com...
>
>>>
>>>How about just turning the key off? That would kill the engine and
>>>the problem would go away. You are correct in your assessment that
>>>everyone in the broadcast business is a clueless idiot. They can't be
>>>bothered to research the subject.
>>>
>>>Jim
>>
>>
>> Many vehicles these days do NOT use keys. The car in question didnt
>> have a key..but a "start button"..and to shut it down requires one to
>> press it for up to 4 seconds.
>>
>> You just got here..right ?
>>
>> <G>
>>
>>
>> Gunner
>>
>
> Actually you just have to pust the button with the brakes applied. And he
> most likely was stomping on the brakes to slow down the car. So he
> probably did not push the off button.
maybe, or maybe the software had locked up and nothing would do the trick -
there is no real "off" switch anywhere so you are depending on the software
working correctly at all times.
Gunner Asch
>
>(An item on my 'list' would be explaining how to restart a fuel injected
>engine after it's been run out of fuel... without burning up the
>starter, and running down the battery.
>
>How do you do it? On most cars, after adding a little fuel, turn the key
>to the 'run' position, wait about 4 seconds then turn it back off.
>Repeat 50 or 60 times. Each cycle runs the pump 2 or 3 seconds without
>grinding away on the starter. Long vehicles, like limos will require
>more cycles.
Why not simply turn the key to the run position, open the hood and press
a ballpoint pen or other item, on the little gizmo in the Schraider
valve on the fuel injector rail until it spritzs gas up like a litle
fountain?
Or doesnt that work?
Please tell me! I might run out of gas someday.
Gunner Asch
How long do you have to hold it (button) to kill the engine?
This is something Id LIKE to know..just in case someday it happens to
me.
Jim Wilkins
>
> Actually you just have to pust the button with the brakes applied. And he
> most likely was stomping on the brakes to slow down the car. So he probably
> did not push the off button.
Whoever designed this should first sit in the vehicle, stand on the
brake pedal as hard as possible and then try to lean forward to reach
the button, while 10 people wave bright lights and throw stuff at them
as a distraction.
jsw, right in the middle of this issue but unable to say much.
wmbjk...@citlink.net
<gun...@lightspeed.net> wrote:
>How long do you have to hold it (button) to kill the engine?
>
>This is something Id LIKE to know..just in case someday it happens to
>me.
>
>Gunner
LOL On the day you're telling us that your electricity is to be cut
off momentarily due to non-payment, you're using the last of it to
ponder dealing with an emergency in a new vehicle! Why not some
discussion of how you'd handle a go/no-go decision on a moon landing?
Shouldn't you be working on a potato battery or something?
Wayne
Joe Pfeiffer
>
> (An item on my 'list' would be explaining how to restart a fuel injected
> engine after it's been run out of fuel... without burning up the
> starter, and running down the battery.
>
> How do you do it? On most cars, after adding a little fuel, turn the key
> to the 'run' position, wait about 4 seconds then turn it back off.
> Repeat 50 or 60 times. Each cycle runs the pump 2 or 3 seconds without
> grinding away on the starter. Long vehicles, like limos will require
> more cycles.
>
> And how do you do it with a vehicle equipped with a 'start button? I
> don't have a clue... probably there is a way to run the fuel pump with a
> scan tool or jumper wire, but who knows...)
The trunk-mounted fuel pump, combined with the use of a regulator that
works by opening a bypass that lets fuel back to the tank, means you're
talking about a couple of seconds max if you just get in and start the
car without messing around with special procedures. You're not going to
burn out a starter motor or run down a battery.
Erik
> Why not simply turn the key to the run position, open the hood and press
> a ballpoint pen or other item, on the little gizmo in the Schraider
> valve on the fuel injector rail until it spritzs gas up like a litle
> fountain?
>
> Or doesnt that work?
>
> Please tell me! I might run out of gas someday.
>
> Gunner
When the key is first turned on, the pump is only run a couple of
seconds to be sure the fuel rail is up to pressure. The pump isn't
allowed to run continuously unless the engine is actually running or in
the process of being cranked.
It's a safety thing, you don't want the pump running alone... if allowed
to do so, it could pump the tank contents out through a ruptured fuel
line at an accident site. It happened more than a few times back in the
early days of electric fuel pumps.
It's done several ways, and some also incorporate inertia switches in
the fuel pump power lead.
They all have a way to override this feature in order to quickly bleed
the system and do pressure/flow tests, but your not likely to have the
proper scan tool, jumper wires and/or whatever on the cold rainy night
you need to do a re start. The override procedure is in your shop manual.
Erik
PS, Also be aware that not all cars are equipped with fuel service
ports... in which case there is no Schrader valve to push.