Help!
Brett Betzler
I have been challenged by my grandfather to produce a knot which cannot be
undone without cutting the rope. I think this may be possible, but I don't
think I can come up with such a knot myself. Does anyone know of such a
knot?
Mark F Edwards
Try a "Round turn and two half tangles": can be done by any beginner
but can only be undone by an expert (with a lot of patience). This is
usually practiced in the "if you can't tie a knot tie a lot" school of
marlinespike seamanship.
Seriously, knot untying is an art in itself.
Brian A. Glennon rigger http://www.cgedwards.com
Peter W. Meek
On 4 Jan 1998 21:15:44 GMT, "Brett Betzler" <bbet...@gsm.uci.edu> wrote:
>I have been challenged by my grandfather to produce a knot which cannot be
>undone without cutting the rope. I think this may be possible, but I don't
>think I can come up with such a knot myself. Does anyone know of such a
>knot?
Try one of the "constrictor" knots. Tied with thin
cord into a soft material, these are about permanent.
This may be the "real" solution.
A sort of "cheat" is to tie almost any knot in material
too small (and even better, too hairy) for the details
to be made out. A simple overhand in very fuzzy thread
should be quite a challenge.
--Pete
pwm...@mail.msen.com (Peter W. Meek)
http://www.msen.com/~pwmeek/
Dr John Stockton
JRS: In article <01bd1955$5028af00$b0b9...@bbetzler.gsm.uci.edu> of
Sun, 4 Jan 1998 21:15:44 in rec.crafts.knots, Brett Betzler
<bbet...@gsm.uci.edu> wrote:
>I have been challenged by my grandfather to produce a knot which cannot be
>undone without cutting the rope. I think this may be possible, but I don't
>think I can come up with such a knot myself. Does anyone know of such a
>knot?
(1) All knots made by mathematicians have this property, by definition.
(2) Take a few feet of normal three-strand rope, unlay, and lay the
three strands up independently as grommets (join the ends of each
strands as in one-third of a long splice, or better), with one
containing a left-hand overhand knot and another a right-hand one.
Then repeat, with the grommets themselves unknotted but knotted together
with a reef (square) knot, a left granny, and a right granny. Then
repeat, with unknotted grommets linked as Borromean rings; demonstrate
that any one he likes can be in the middle, by pulling the other two
apart.
Best, in fact, to unlay three equal lengths of different-coloured but
otherwise identical rope, and use each colour once in each set above.
Disinheritance is almost guaranteed as a consequence.
--
John Stockton, Surrey, UK. j...@merlyn.demon.co.uk Turnpike v1.12 MIME
Helper, 15th Wimbledon Scout Troop.
http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/ scouting.htm - with links to elsewhere
Standard signature separator is as above, a line comprising "-- " (SoRFC1036)
Mark F Edwards
Dear Dr. Stockton,
The problem with your solution is that grommets are not Knots.
Mathematicians misuse the term 'knot' to identify their closed circles.
Knot Theory, which is de facto Closed Circle Theory, has nothing to do
with knots at all; and Knot Theory is a misnomer to describe a division
of topology dealing with pure math.
Dr John Stockton
You have responded in both Mail and News, without marking them as
such: please read http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/news-use.htm#N&M .
In message <34B2D3...@concentric.net> of Tue, 6 Jan 1998 16:58:36,
Mark F Edwards <cged...@concentric.net> wrote :-
>The problem with your solution is that grommets are not Knots.
I know that a grommet, as such, is not a Knot.
>Mathematicians misuse the term 'knot' to identify their closed circles.
xxx
>Knot Theory, which is de facto Closed Circle Theory, has nothing to do
>with knots at all; and Knot Theory is a misnomer to describe a division
>of topology dealing with pure math.
But a thumb knot in a grommet, or a granny (but not a reef) between two
grommets, is surely a knotter's knot? and yet cannot be undone.
IMHO, a knot which has been tied, and yet cannot be untied, is a mere
Jam; and, if pulled tight enough, almost any knotter's knot cannot be
untied if insufficient force is available.
--
John Stockton, Surrey, UK. j...@merlyn.demon.co.uk Turnpike v1.12 MIME.
Web <URL: http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/> - FAQqish topics, acronyms & links.
Correct 4-line sig separator is as above, a line comprising "-- " (SoRFC1036)
Before a reply, quote with ">" / "> ", known to good news readers (SoRFC1036)
Pieter_van_de_Griend
>> >I have been challenged by my grandfather to produce a knot which cannot be
>> >undone without cutting the rope. I think this may be possible, but I don't
>> >think I can come up with such a knot myself. Does anyone know of such a
>> >knot?
>>
>> (1) All knots made by mathematicians have this property, by definition.
obviously you must produce the knot "in rope".
this requires manipulating the ends in order to form the knot.
concealing the ends can obviously not be done by means of another knot,
as all knots "in rope" can be untied.
hence you must either melt the ends together or put in a lock, like the kind
used in necklaces. It is then (mathematically proveable) that you cannot tie
any other knot to "counteract" your first knot. John Conway proved this in a
very elegant manner. The problem, though is concealing the ends........not
tying the knot.
best, pieter.
L Anderson
Brett Betzler wrote:
>
> I have been challenged by my grandfather to produce a knot which cannot be
> undone without cutting the rope. I think this may be possible, but I don't
> think I can come up with such a knot myself. Does anyone know of such a
> knot?
Take a segment of rope and tie in it the knot of your choice. Build a
fire and throw the rope with knot in and let it burn up completely. Now
the knot can't be untied. :-)
LA
munge mark '666'
nospa...@noscam.com
"Brian & Andrea Carew" <bri...@cdc.net.au> wrote:
>Cut a length of nylon rope.
>Tie any knot in it.
>Melt the ends together.
>
>Andrea, from Australia.
>(who does most things differently)
Conisderably nontraditional & likely to produce controversy, but
majorly ingenious.
Michael Dunn, Shediac, New Brunswick, Canada
e-mail: mjdal"at"nbnet.nb.ca - replace "at" with
@
courriel: mjdal"à"nbnet.nb.ca - remplacer "à" par
@
personal PAGE personnelle: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/7995/mdunn.htm
Butch Nash
Brett Betzler wrote:
> I have been challenged by my grandfather to produce a knot which cannot be
> undone without cutting the rope. I think this may be possible, but I don't
> think I can come up with such a knot myself. Does anyone know of such a
> knot?
Dear Brett, The solution to your problem is to unlay a three strand rope, and
tie a Matthew Walker knot with the three strands. After you work it tight,
then lay up the strands again, sizing the ends of the rope. Directions to tie
this knot may be found in Ashley's Book of Knots. Have fun.
--
Skip Hipps
The KNOTWRIGHT
Brian & Andrea Carew
Cut a length of nylon rope.
Tie any knot in it.
Melt the ends together.
Andrea, from Australia.
(who does most things differently)
Brett Betzler wrote in message
<01bd1955$5028af00$b0b9...@bbetzler.gsm.uci.edu>...