Ebay Diamonds
papa smurf
I am in the market for loose diamonds. I have been to several stores
in my area, but recently decided to look at how diamonds are selling
on E-Bay. From what auctions I have found, diamonds sell considerably
less on E-Bay. I am interested in purchasing diamonds on E-Bay;
however, my dilemma is the following:
1. I feel uncomfortable making such an expensive purchase over a wire
without seeing my product first.
2. I worry that I=92m getting scammed.
3. I wonder if I truly am getting the best deal.
4. I=92m not sure what probing questions to ask for my protection.
Can anyone offer good suggestions as to how I can protect myself while
making such a large purchase? I would also love to hear from folks
who have actually purchased diamonds on e-bay. I appreciate your
advice and time!
Heinrich Butschal
> Hello All,
>
> I am in the market for loose diamonds. I have been to several stores
> in my area, but recently decided to look at how diamonds are selling
> on E-Bay. From what auctions I have found, diamonds sell considerably
> less on E-Bay. I am interested in purchasing diamonds on E-Bay;
> however, my dilemma is the following:
> 1. I feel uncomfortable making such an expensive purchase over a wire
> without seeing my product first.
This won´t help. Especially if You are not a diamond expert you can´t fix the
quality and the worth of the diamond by yourself.
> 2. I worry that I'm getting scammed.
> 3. I wonder if I truly am getting the best deal.
If You will buy cheap the risk is higher that You will get a banana. So it is
better to buy in a store witch is well known and eg. a company of good
standing. They won´t cheat You.
> 4. I'm not sure what probing questions to ask for my protection.
> Can anyone offer good suggestions as to how I can protect myself while
> making such a large purchase? I would also love to hear from folks
> who have actually purchased diamonds on e-bay. I appreciate your
> advice and time!
Look here for diamanonds wich are second hand ans so far not too expensive.
http://www.schmuck-boerse.com/index-edelstein-diamant-2.htm
Mit freundlichem Gruß,
Heinrich Butschal
--
Schmuck Gutachter und Schmuckverkauf http://www.butschal.de
Schmuck nach Maß anfertigen http://www.meister-atelier.de
Firmengeschenke und Ehrennadeln http://www.goldschmiede-meister.com
Schmuckmanufaktur http://www.schmuckfabrik.de
Schmuck gut verkaufen und günstig kaufen http://www.schmuck-boerse.com
William Black
"papa smurf" <DSOl...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:eoon54l8pnu732976...@4ax.com...
Diamonds without a certificate of origin these days may be 'blood diamonds'.
Pass them through an international border (by post or in your pocket) you
stand a chance of getting them impounded.
These days the diamond investment market is plunging like a stone. It's an
artificial market that has a very limited lifetime now that everyone has
realised that it's a cartel cheating them.
Buy rubies, you can't fake them or manufacture them.
--
William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.
Peter W.. Rowe,
<willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>Diamonds without a certificate of origin these days may be 'blood diamonds'.
Yes, but it's a fairly small percentage of the overall market. And certificates
of origin too, are pretty much based on trust. paper is easier to fake than
diamonds. The thing to rely on is the integrity of your supplier. Not papers.
In the U.S., at this point in time, blood diamonds are more the subject of
movies and news stories than a major problem. Yes, the problem still exists,
but it's only a small percentage of the diamond market that's at all suspect.
This doesn't help with detecting such stones, but the odds are still in your
favor. And of course, while blood diamonds are a social issue, they are not a
gemological issue. Blood diamonds are still diamonds, after all. The trick is
making sure your money is not going to finance suffering and war. Instead, it
should be going to make a filthy rich monopoly even richer... (grin)
>>
>>Pass them through an international border (by post or in your pocket) you
>>stand a chance of getting them impounded.
Oh? Not likely. At least not at the consumer level or with cut stones. Now,
if you smuggle anything illegally, you can get it confiscated and yourself in
jail. Diamonds are not in some special class here. But we're just talking
about buying stones on ebay in this thread, not on buying millions of carats of
rough and crossing borders.
>>
>>These days the diamond investment market is plunging like a stone. It's an
>>artificial market that has a very limited lifetime now that everyone has
>>realised that it's a cartel cheating them.
How is this some sudden thing? The market is as it's been for almost a hundred
years. The internet has changed a lot of the rules of buying stones at the
retail level, but the "investment" market in diamonds pretty much dried up a
couple decades ago. it's been back, mostly, to a gem market for traditional gem
needs. Yes, the market is a bit slow now, but not unsurprising for a global
recession.
If you really want to be looking for threats to the diamond market, forget about
some new level of consumer awareness. That'll never happen. Instead, look to
the future availability of good synthetic diamonds. That MIGHT have an effect
worth noting. But despite a number of years of loud news stories and alarms,
it's not happened yet. Either the crash, or the avialability of the synthetic
stones. So far, you can get a limited supply of synthetic diamonds in bright
yellows and orange colors. So far, not colorless. That may be a few years off
yet. And whether it will affect the market for natural stones remains to be
seen. The wide availability of many synthetic colored stones hasn't much hurt
the market for the finest of the natural gems. if anything, it's raised
awareness of those gems and demand for them.
>>
>>Buy rubies, you can't fake them or manufacture them.
what planet are you living on, William? Synthetic rubies have been around since
the late 1800s, and have been getting better all along. Some of the common
types are easy to identify, but there are others that require a sophisticated
commercial gem lab to positively separate from the natural rubies. Your
statement about buying rubies is a good one nevertheless, since fine natural
rubies remain rare and, as gems go, a good investement. But you certainly CAN
fake them and manufacture them. Such fakes and synthetics are widely and
inexpensively available, and are much more common than good natural stones. And
then there are the many issues with treated rubies. Heat treated, diffused, or
glass filled natural rubies present ever more thorny problems for gemologists
and buyers every year. In fact, coming back to the buying and selling of gems
on ebay, I'd guess that someone buying "ruby" on ebay is far more likely to be
sold a synthetic or simulated ruby fraudulently, than would be someone buying
diamond, since in the case of diamond, the choice of a cheap synthetic diamond
doesn't exist, so it would have to be a simulant (not as close a substitution,
and easy to detect) if not actually a diamond.
Peter
Peter W.. Rowe,
<DSOl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>Hello All,
>>
>>I am in the market for loose diamonds. I have been to several stores
>>in my area, but recently decided to look at how diamonds are selling
>>on E-Bay. From what auctions I have found, diamonds sell considerably
>>less on E-Bay. I am interested in purchasing diamonds on E-Bay;
>>however, my dilemma is the following:
>>1. I feel uncomfortable making such an expensive purchase over a wire
>>without seeing my product first.
>>2. I worry that I'm getting scammed.
>>3. I wonder if I truly am getting the best deal.
>>4. I'm not sure what probing questions to ask for my protection.
>>Can anyone offer good suggestions as to how I can protect myself while
>>making such a large purchase? I would also love to hear from folks
>>who have actually purchased diamonds on e-bay. I appreciate your
>>advice and time!
papa smurf,
You need to tell us a little more for a meaningful answer.
Are you a jeweler or collector looking to buy for stock or inventory or
otherwise in significant quantities? If so, you'd be better off cultivating the
usual business relationships with standard wholesale diamond suppliers and
dealers. if you're really at this level, then you'll know where and how to
educate yourself about diamonds so as to be able to compare dealers, as well as
evaluate the stones.
I'm assuming, though, that this is not correct, but that rather, you wish to buy
diamonds for your own use and ownership. Right? So you're a "retail" customer
looking to save money. That's natural enough, since traditional "brick and
morter" stores often charge a higher markup than you may wish to pay. For that,
you get better service, warranties, sometimes buy-back policies, the right to
expect that what you're buying is indeed what it's described as being, and the
fun of knowing you're making a salesperson happy. Sometimes, very happy.
The internet, however, has changed many of the old rules of buying diamonds. it
used to be that any jeweler could sell you diamonds, that most such jewelers
were fairly competative with each other, and this standard retail market was the
main place most people bought diamonds. The usual markup between wholesale and
these retail sales varied from 200 to 300 percent, and any shopper doing a bit
of store comparisons could find the best deals, while the higher price levels
might offer things like more exclusive designers, or more libral financing
option. or just more advertising.
But the internet has seen any number of people go into business by setting up a
web site on which they host the inventory list of one or more of their diamond
wholesale suppliers (real wholesalers, not the scam "wholesale to the public"
sorts of things), to which the web site would add a markup. In these sites, the
markup sometimes would be as low as a ten percent markup, VERY low by any
business model or retail standard you might choose to look at. Even wholesale
clubs like costco or sams, or your grocery store, usually need to mark things up
more than that just to break even, so these web sales of diamonds really have
put a dent in the diamond market. Now, many of these brick and morter stores
have had to compete. I know any number of retailers who will order a stone to
be sent on memo, show it to a customer, and if it's Ok, will sell it for a
fairly small added markup, sometimes as low as that ten or fifteen percent,
though usually a bit more. Still, it's a LOT more competative than it used to
be. Some of the more pricey and exclusive stores don't do this, but still
charge the same high markups they ever did, and there are people who will still
happily pay these prices. But you don't need to any more if you're careful. And
if you shop on line, and do your research into reputations and the like, you can
still find those sites selling at a very reasonable and low markup.
www.tradeshop.com is one such. Started by one of the original regulars to this
newsgroup way back in the mid 90s, Ray Elsey, who sadly, passed away earlier
this year. But his company is still in business, and they're still happily
giving people bargains on diamonds. And they're not along. Blue Nile, a
Seattle based company, has in just a few years become one of the biggest diamond
sellers in the country, all on their web site. Not quite as cheap as tradeshop,
but still a fine firm to buy from, who's pissing off lots of the traditional
retail jewelers by being cheaper than they are... And a bit of a search of the
net will show you many many more such options if you look.
As to ebay. Well, it's not the site that matters. it's the sellers. Remember
that, as an auction site, ebay has nothing to do with the merchandise. It's
all individual sellers, who may vary from crooks to fine dealers to individual
housewives who no longer want their jewelery and are trying to dump it somehow.
Just how you protect yourself here is kind of up to you. Hard to check on
people aside from their ebay feedback records, which sometimes can give you a
skewed view. You don't know who their buyers are, how experienced and
knowlegeable those buyers are, and thus, how valid their feedback. Sometimes
you can check out a seller to verify who they are, and other times you can't.
Ebay is a good place to shop for things IF, and only IF, you know what you're
doing as regards the merchandise. if you know diamond grading and evaluation,
and thus can form an informed opionion of a stone based on it's description, as
well as knowing when a description isn't telling you what it needs to do in
order to be accurate, then you've a hope of finding some decent deals. i've
seen some stones sold on ebay for less than their wholesale value, and others
sold there not only for more than their retail value, but which shouldn't have
been sold at all, due to fraudulent descriptions. To do OK on ebay, you need
to first already know what the market prices for a given item or stone should
be, and then you need to know how to be sure the item is as described, and what
the description needs to tell you to be meaningful. This isn't a simple list
of questions we can give you here on the newsgroup which you can read down and
rattle off to a seller and get answers or no answers to. You need to actually
understand the subject of you are a sitting duck for the shysters and won't know
it. Still, you might get some fine buys. But will you know them when you see
them? Can you read a discription and know that what it's describing tells you
a stone is worth buying instead of a stone with lots of fancy sounding labels
that tells you nothing? You know the old saying. buyer beware. Loose
gemstones on ebay is one fine example of that. Many sellers there are fine
people and their wares are honest. But whether they're a great bargain is
another question. A simple list of things you should ask won't help you. You
need to understand diamonds well enough to have figured out what the questions
are on your own, I think. Otherwise, someone could still just tell you all the
right answers, and still send you a piece of crap, and you won't know the
difference.
Peter
William Black
"Peter W.. Rowe," <rec.craft...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:58rq54h7j8a4m7vec...@4ax.com...
>>>Pass them through an international border (by post or in your pocket) you
>>>stand a chance of getting them impounded.
>
> Oh? Not likely. At least not at the consumer level or with cut stones.
British Customs (I'm not sure what the agency is called this week) has just
bought a very clever device for telling the origin of diamonds by some sort
clever test, probably crystalography of some kind.
I gather that if you're even wearing too much expensive looking jewellery
they get to play with it. Shipments of diamonds all get to go through it...
The UK government has a great deal of interest in blood diamonds as a lot of
them come from Sierra Leone where HMG has just fought a short but nasty war
and is busy spending loads of money on making sure it's a nice stable
democracy.
Guess where the bad guy's money came from...
> If you really want to be looking for threats to the diamond market, forget
> about
> some new level of consumer awareness. That'll never happen. Instead,
> look to
> the future availability of good synthetic diamonds. That MIGHT have an
> effect
> worth noting. But despite a number of years of loud news stories and
> alarms,
> it's not happened yet. Either the crash, or the avialability of the
> synthetic
> stones. So far, you can get a limited supply of synthetic diamonds in
> bright
> yellows and orange colors. So far, not colorless. That may be a few
> years off
> yet. And whether it will affect the market for natural stones remains to
> be
> seen. The wide availability of many synthetic colored stones hasn't much
> hurt
> the market for the finest of the natural gems. if anything, it's raised
> awareness of those gems and demand for them.
I keep looking for these synthetic stones here in the UK, but, as I've
said before here, so far nobody seems to be interested in supplying them to
jewellers in small quantities.
>>>Buy rubies, you can't fake them or manufacture them.
>
> what planet are you living on, William? Synthetic rubies have been around
> since
> the late 1800s, and have been getting better all along. Some of the
> common
> types are easy to identify, but there are others that require a
> sophisticated
> commercial gem lab to positively separate from the natural rubies.
Then I must have misheard the chap at one gem supplier.
My mistake.
Peter W.. Rowe,
<willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>British Customs (I'm not sure what the agency is called this week) has just
>>bought a very clever device for telling the origin of diamonds by some sort
>>clever test, probably crystalography of some kind.
Very costly machines. They detect very slight differences in the various
impurities in the crystals, which tend to vary based on location. Even then,
however, it seldom can proove origin, only suggest it, as there's significant
overlap in these properties from one location to another. They can, for
example, take some stones and know for certain that they did not come from
Sierro leone (one of the biggest problem areas), but the machine can't say this
for certain for all locations, especially stones from other parts of africa with
similar geology. And then there are the stones from Sierra Leone that happen to
be legal. Perhaps mined legally before the war, or since, etc. etc. No
separation there. And some stones, both blook diamonds and not, will simply not
give any definative reading on the machine. It's a better test than nothing,
but a long way from being even close to perfect. So far, the only real
solution has been requiring importers, cutters, dealers, to maintain a paper
trail showing the origin of the stones. But I've yet to see a retail store
offering retail customers any paperwork that verifiably continues this paper
trail, so consumers are left hanging. And dishonest dealers have been known to
forge paperwork.
>>
>>I gather that if you're even wearing too much expensive looking jewellery
>>they get to play with it. Shipments of diamonds all get to go through it...
Shipments are probably less of a problem, since the likelyhood of proper
paperwork and documentation is higher. Such documentation is not likely with
finished jewelery, and even then, the testing may be not very meaningful. Even
if diamonds are suspected of being originally from Sierra Leone or other
conflict areas, there's no way to tell when they were mined, or if legally. You
could have a fine diamond necklace, purchased legally in Hong Cong, with
paperwork claiming conflict free diamonds, which are in fact bloody as hell, but
if properly declared at customs, this would be legal. no grounds to confiscate
it. Or another similar necklace, except from Harry Winston made in 1955, also
with stones from Seirra Leone that the machine might yell about, yet it too is
legal and the diamonds were not in a conflict then. All in all, lots of
problems with such test. But at least, smugglers don't always know this. The
real testers are likely to remain the customs officers themselves, looking for
things being brought across that they can prove are illegal, or when smugglers,
thinking themselves caught, will give away clues as to their activity.
>>I keep looking for these synthetic stones here in the UK, but, as I've
>>said before here, so far nobody seems to be interested in supplying them to
>>jewellers in small quantities.
>>
In part, they're simply not available even in large quantities. Don't feel
excluded. Gemesys, the main manufacturer of the nice yellow synthetics, is not
able to make anywhere near as much as they could sell, so they hardly need to
look for new distributors, either large or small.
>>
>>Then I must have misheard the chap at one gem supplier.
Look for Chatham ruby, or Gilson ruby, as two manufacturers of fine flux grown
stones. The cheap stuff is flame fusion, and stones cost pennies, but are still
ruby. Look in wikipedia for "Verneuil process", for this first of the major
ruby synthesis processes. The result is commony used in class rings, cheap
jewelry, industrial bearings (watch bearings are often synthetic ruby like
this). Nice bright red ruby, but easy to identify due to curved growth marks.
Others include the "Czochralski process" (widely used for making the silicon
crystals used in semiconductors, but also for high purity ruby, including for
example, ruby laser rods. The result is one of those that are exceedingly
difficult to prove as being synthetic in some cases, even when common sense
tells you it has to be so, as it's too damn perfect to be real...), or the
hydrothermal process , or Flux Growth methods. These two latter methods often
produce gems that are Very much the same in appearance as natural gems, with the
major differences being in the nature of the inclusions present, a separation
that takes some training and a good microscope to do in many cases. More than
a few gem dealers and even trained gemologists have been fooled by one or more
of the various ruby synthetics or treatments from time to time...
Peter
Abrasha
> Hello All,
>
> I am in the market for loose diamonds. I have been to several stores
> in my area, but recently decided to look at how diamonds are selling
> on E-Bay. From what auctions I have found, diamonds sell considerably
> less on E-Bay. I am interested in purchasing diamonds on E-Bay;
> however, my dilemma is the following:
> 1. I feel uncomfortable making such an expensive purchase over a wire
> without seeing my product first.
So, ... that eliminates eBay.
Question answered I would think
> 2. I worry that I=92m getting scammed.
Go ahead, worry.
> 3. I wonder if I truly am getting the best deal.
Go ahead, wonder.
> 4. I=92m not sure what probing questions to ask for my protection.
> Can anyone offer good suggestions as to how I can protect myself while
> making such a large purchase?
Don't buy from eBay. Buy from someone you can trust.
> I would also love to hear from folks
> who have actually purchased diamonds on e-bay.
You're not going to find them here.
> I appreciate your
> advice and time!
Buy from me. You can trust me. Really, I promise.
In all seriousness. If you would buy a diamond from me, I would only
want to sell you a diamond with a GIA certificate. That way you have
some assurances, that the diamond you get is worth what you paid for it,
plus you can compare the specs and price to other identical or similar
stones.
If you are at all serious, you are more then welcome to contact by phone
for advice. Advice is free.
--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com
Peter W.. Rowe,
<abr...@abrasha.com> wrote:
>>
>>In all seriousness. If you would buy a diamond from me, I would only
>>want to sell you a diamond with a GIA certificate. That way you have
>>some assurances, that the diamond you get is worth what you paid for it,
>>plus you can compare the specs and price to other identical or similar
>>stones.
Good recommendation. I'd add that the AGS certificates also seem to be
trustworthy. There are a couple other labs issuing certs that are widely used,
notably EGL. They're often not quite as reliable and accurate in their grading
as GIA and AGS. GIA devised the grading scale usually used, and AGS also
defines the portions of it's scale that differ, so each is using it's own
"ruler". This differs from other labs that usually use the GIA scale, but often
don't do it quite as stringently as the originators of the scales intend. EGL
is notorious for being a bit loose in their grading, so stones with EGL certs
often seem to cost a bit less than same sounding stones with AGS or GIA certs.
They're not better deals automatically. Often, they are stones that would come
back from AGS or GIA with the color or clarity listed one grade below what the
EGL cert claims, thus explaining the apparent differences in cost. Stay away
from stones with certificates issued by the seller, small local labs, or any lab
that's not nationally recognized and used by a wide range of dealers. They may
be fine, and might be quite good enough when you own a stone and need to have
some documentation on it in order to get insurance or something. But to really
verify grades, qualites, and value, you're best off with GIA or AGS as the lab
that does the cert. The AGS scales are different looking from the GIA scales,
but the actual standards for each grade are similar, so comparing from one lab
to the other is easy and valid.
cheers
Peter
Heinrich Butschal
For Europe, You might add HRD and FGA certificates into the recommendation
list, as well as IGI certificates if these certificate are dated in this
century.
Abrasha
> "Peter W.. Rowe," <rec.craft...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:58rq54h7j8a4m7vec...@4ax.com...
>
>>>> Pass them through an international border (by post or in your pocket) you
>>>> stand a chance of getting them impounded.
>> Oh? Not likely. At least not at the consumer level or with cut stones.
>
> British Customs (I'm not sure what the agency is called this week) has just
> bought a very clever device for telling the origin of diamonds by some sort
> clever test, probably crystalography of some kind.
Bullshit!
--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com
Abrasha
> "papa smurf" <DSOl...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:eoon54l8pnu732976...@4ax.com...
>> Hello All,
>>
>> I am in the market for loose diamonds. I have been to several stores
>> in my area, but recently decided to look at how diamonds are selling
>> on E-Bay. From what auctions I have found, diamonds sell considerably
>> less on E-Bay. I am interested in purchasing diamonds on E-Bay;
>> however, my dilemma is the following:
>> 1. I feel uncomfortable making such an expensive purchase over a wire
>> without seeing my product first.
>> 2. I worry that I=92m getting scammed.
>> 3. I wonder if I truly am getting the best deal.
>> 4. I=92m not sure what probing questions to ask for my protection.
>> Can anyone offer good suggestions as to how I can protect myself while
>> making such a large purchase? I would also love to hear from folks
>> who have actually purchased diamonds on e-bay. I appreciate your
>> advice and time!
>
> Diamonds without a certificate of origin these days may be 'blood diamonds'.
Very small chance. Besides, even if the stone comes with a
"certificate" stating that it is not a "conflict diamond" (That is the
correct term. You seem to get your knowledge from Hollywood), it is no
guarantee, that it is actually a conflict free diamond.
>
> Pass them through an international border (by post or in your pocket) you
> stand a chance of getting them impounded.
What makes you think he wants to "pass then through an international
border" (are there any other borders?). Most likely he wants to buy a
stone that has already been imported.
>
> These days the diamond investment market is plunging like a stone. It's an
> artificial market that has a very limited lifetime now that everyone has
> realised that it's a cartel cheating them.
There is no cheating. However deBeers is very upfront about the fact,
that they control diamond prices very strictly and successfully.
I strongly suggest you inform yourself a bit more about the diamond
trade, it's history and it's complexities
>
> Buy rubies, you can't fake them or manufacture them.
Oh yes you can. This has been done quite successfully. People get
cheated in Thailand on a daily basis. Even professional jewelry buyers.
--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com
Abrasha
> papa smurf schrieb:
>> Hello All,
>>
>> I am in the market for loose diamonds. I have been to several stores
>> in my area, but recently decided to look at how diamonds are selling
>> on E-Bay. From what auctions I have found, diamonds sell considerably
>> less on E-Bay. I am interested in purchasing diamonds on E-Bay;
>> however, my dilemma is the following:
>> 1. I feel uncomfortable making such an expensive purchase over a wire
>> without seeing my product first.
> This won't help. Especially if You are not a diamond expert you can't fix the
> quality and the worth of the diamond by yourself.
>> 2. I worry that I'm getting scammed.
>> 3. I wonder if I truly am getting the best deal.
> If You will buy cheap the risk is higher that You will get a banana.
In the US it's called a "lemon" :)
> So it is
> better to buy in a store witch is well known and
I do not agree. Buying from a "store" is always more expensive, since
you will have to pay part of their overhead, i.e. rent, insurance, etc.
> eg. a company of good
> standing. They won't cheat You.
I beg to differ. Some of the biggest swindles have been perpetrated by
"companies in good standing".
http://www.2bangkok.com/2bangkok/Scams/sapp10.shtml
http://www.gemsny.com/guide/top-10-dirty-tricks-in-jewelry-business/
And, ... remember Enron (albeit not a jewelry company)
>> 4. I'm not sure what probing questions to ask for my protection.
>> Can anyone offer good suggestions as to how I can protect myself while
>> making such a large purchase? I would also love to hear from folks
>> who have actually purchased diamonds on e-bay. I appreciate your
>> advice and time!
>
> Look here for diamanonds wich are second hand ans so far not too expensive.
> http://www.schmuck-boerse.com/index-edelstein-diamant-2.htm
Dude, the guy posting is most likely from the US. Do you really think
it is useful to offer him a place to buy a stone from Germany, when he
has just told you that he is not comfortable buying anything he can't see
?!?
--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com
Abrasha
Tom Chatham's (http://www.chatham.com/clippings/c95-1.html) office is
here in San Francisco, one block from my studio. He makes nice Emeralds
too.
--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com
Heinrich Butschal
> Heinrich Butschal wrote:
>> papa smurf schrieb:
>>> Hello All,
>>>
>>> I am in the market for loose diamonds. I have been to several stores
>>> in my area, but recently decided to look at how diamonds are selling
>>> on E-Bay. From what auctions I have found, diamonds sell considerably
>>> less on E-Bay. I am interested in purchasing diamonds on E-Bay;
>>> however, my dilemma is the following:
>>> 1. I feel uncomfortable making such an expensive purchase over a wire
>>> without seeing my product first.
>> This won't help. Especially if You are not a diamond expert you can't fix the
>> quality and the worth of the diamond by yourself.
>>> 2. I worry that I'm getting scammed.
>>> 3. I wonder if I truly am getting the best deal.
>
>> If You will buy cheap the risk is higher that You will get a banana.
>
> In the US it's called a "lemon" :)
In Germany we call it also "mit Zirtonen gehandelt" that is meant: dealed
with lemons, if a business was bad. :-)
>> So it is
>> better to buy in a store witch is well known and
>
> I do not agree. Buying from a "store" is always more expensive, since
> you will have to pay part of their overhead, i.e. rent, insurance, etc.
Shure, however, they have due to theis bigger turnover, better conditions with
the wholesalers.
>> eg. a company of good
>> standing. They won't cheat You.
>
> I beg to differ. Some of the biggest swindles have been perpetrated by
> "companies in good standing".
> http://www.2bangkok.com/2bangkok/Scams/sapp10.shtml
> http://www.gemsny.com/guide/top-10-dirty-tricks-in-jewelry-business/
Bähh You can´t compare these with real "companies in good standing".
> And, ... remember Enron (albeit not a jewelry company)
>
>
>>> 4. I'm not sure what probing questions to ask for my protection.
>>> Can anyone offer good suggestions as to how I can protect myself while
>>> making such a large purchase? I would also love to hear from folks
>>> who have actually purchased diamonds on e-bay. I appreciate your
>>> advice and time!
>> Look here for diamanonds wich are second hand ans so far not too expensive.
>> http://www.schmuck-boerse.com/index-edelstein-diamant-2.htm
>
> Dude, the guy posting is most likely from the US. Do you really think
> it is useful to offer him a place to buy a stone from Germany, when he
> has just told you that he is not comfortable buying anything he can't see
> ?!?
He might get a comparison of price and quality.
> --
> Abrasha
> http://www.abrasha.com
Welcome :-)
William Black
"Abrasha" <abr...@abrasha.com> wrote in message
news:3g0s5495h42riuk50...@4ax.com...
What technology do they use?
Don't tell me the bloody thing is a PR fantasy, because it isn't.
William Black
> William Black wrote:
>> Diamonds without a certificate of origin these days may be 'blood
>> diamonds'.
>
> Very small chance. Besides, even if the stone comes with a
> "certificate" stating that it is not a "conflict diamond" (That is the
> correct term. You seem to get your knowledge from Hollywood), it is no
> guarantee, that it is actually a conflict free diamond.
Actually it comes from contact with a couple of friends who were British
soldiers who ended up in Sierra Leone and were shot at by the people selling
the things and buying guns with the profits. They called them 'Blood
Diamonds' and they had a professional interest.
>> Pass them through an international border (by post or in your pocket) you
>> stand a chance of getting them impounded.
>
> What makes you think he wants to "pass then through an international
> border" (are there any other borders?).
Oh yes. Look up 'Interstate comerce in the USA' some time
Most likely he wants to buy a
> stone that has already been imported.
To where?
I live on two different continents at various times of the year and buy some
stones and jewellery. It is normal for me to cross international borders
carrying gems and jewellery.
>> These days the diamond investment market is plunging like a stone. It's
>> an
>> artificial market that has a very limited lifetime now that everyone has
>> realised that it's a cartel cheating them.
>
> There is no cheating. However deBeers is very upfront about the fact,
> that they control diamond prices very strictly and successfully.
I understand that their sucess was challenged until they managed to get the
output of the Sierra Leonian mines under their control.
It is the 'unregistered sellers' that were causing them the problem.
deBeers doesn't operate directly in the USA because their normal business
practices would be considered illegal there...
Séimí mac Liam
news:1p0s54lmajo0efigl...@4ax.com:
>>>> Then I must have misheard the chap at one gem supplier.
>>
>> Look for Chatham ruby,
>
> Tom Chatham's (http://www.chatham.com/clippings/c95-1.html) office is
> here in San Francisco, one block from my studio. He makes nice
> Emeralds too.
>
And then there's these folk:
http://www.ramaura.com/article.htm
--
Saint Séimí mac Liam
Carriagemaker to the court of Queen Maeve
Prophet of The Great Tagger
Canonized December '99
Abrasha
>
> deBeers doesn't operate directly in the USA because their normal business
> practices would be considered illegal there...
>
>
They just opened a store last week across the street from me.
--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com
Peter W.. Rowe,
<willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>Oh yes. Look up 'Interstate comerce in the USA' some time
>>
>>I understand that their sucess was challenged until they managed to get the
>>output of the Sierra Leonian mines under their control.
Sierra Leone is/was hardly the only diamond source operating outside of the
DeBeers line of control. Venezuela, Canada, Australia, and many of the Russian
sources sell, or have sold, outside of the DeBeers organization to one degree or
another. DeBeers is no longer a total monopoly. But they do still control the
majority of the sources, and that seems to be enough.
>>
>>It is the 'unregistered sellers' that were causing them the problem.
>>
Or any sellers working outside of their organization, as noted above. But for
many diamond sellers, it doesn't make too much sense to work outside of DeBeers,
since often they'll simply get the best prices through them...
Perhaps the greatest long term threat to DeBeers isn't the "out of network"
sales of rough diamonds. It may well be the developing field of synthetic
diamonds. If available in enough quantitiy, at high enough quality, to cause
serious competition with natural diamonds but at lower cost, the implications
for DeBeers could be significant. Part of their response to this has been the
aggressive work to promote DeBeers as a brand name for diamonds, rather than
just a source, as well as a lot of research in developing methods of accurately
detecting the synthetic diamonds. Much of the current crop of yellow fancy
colors, and perhaps the other fancies also being made, ARE identifiable, at
least by a good gem lab if not by the average gemologist. But the colorless
high quality stones that may be coming down the line in the future could be a
LOT more difficult to identify with certainty, and if we end up where a diamond
can no longer be absolutely identified as natural versus synthetic, the effect
on diamond prices could be dramatic, at least in the higher qualities where this
is most likely to be an issue.
>>deBeers doesn't operate directly in the USA because their normal business
>>practices would be considered illegal there...
>>
Not any longer. The Antitrust / monopoly issues the justice department had with
DeBeers for many years were, so far as I know, settled via a rather large class
action lawsuit earlier this year. virtually anyone who'd bought diamonds,
either wholesale or retail, in the U.S. during the past ten years or something
like that, could, if they wished, file a claim to get some of the price back.
For large dealers and sellers, it made sense to file claims. For most
individuals, the payment funds would have been sufficiently diluted as to make
the end payout not much worth the paperwork. But whatever, the lawyers made a
lot of money on the suit, as they always due, and since that settlement
agreement, DeBeers is no longer under that cloud of prosecution here in the
U.S. Even the top executives, who for many years didn't travel to the U.S. to
avoid arrest here, apparently are now again free to do so if they wish. At
least, that's what the news stories said. I don't have all the details handy.
But as Abrasha has pointed out, they are now opening offices and stores in the
U.S.
Peter
William Black
> William Black wrote:
>
>>
>> deBeers doesn't operate directly in the USA because their normal business
>> practices would be considered illegal there...
>>
>>
>
> They just opened a store last week across the street from me.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/66f7wa
>
'deBeers International Jewelers' is not the de Beers diamond cartel.
William Black
> On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 12:27:42 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry "William Black"
> <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>I understand that their sucess was challenged until they managed to get
>>>the
>>>output of the Sierra Leonian mines under their control.
>
> Sierra Leone is/was hardly the only diamond source operating outside of
> the
> DeBeers line of control. Venezuela, Canada, Australia, and many of the
> Russian
> sources sell, or have sold, outside of the DeBeers organization to one
> degree or
> another. DeBeers is no longer a total monopoly. But they do still
> control the
> majority of the sources, and that seems to be enough.
My understanding is that the huge Kimberly mine in Austrailia and most of
the Russian sources now sell through the de Beers cartel.
de Beers 'invented' eternity rings to sell the vast quantities of small
gemstone quality diamonds produced by the Kimberly.
It makes a great deal of sense to sell this way. It turns out that diamonds
are actually no more scarce than any other gemstone.
That's why I keep waiting for the 'other shoe to drop' with respect to
artificial diamonds.
As soon as they show up in any serious numbers the whole diamond business
may well come crashing down around our ears.
--
William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.
>
>>>
papa smurf
<rec.crafts.jewe...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 12:27:42 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry "William Black"
>
Ok... Wow... I wasn't expecting to start a whole debate over my
questions. haha... Peter... Thank you for your advice. I did manage
to read over everything you have written. However, I didn't see a
place where I can do a reply to everyone so I thought I would just
post something somewhere... I will admit, I have not read everyone's
response here yet, but I wanted to clarify a few things...
1. I'm in the US
2. I'm not a retailer
3. I'm a simple consumer looking to get a diamond for an engagement
ring.
4. I have no desire to send my diamond(s) across the boarder.
haha...
Ok so now that is out there. I have been shopping around. I know
what I like when I see it. I will list the diamond specs that I have
chosen below. When I compare prices, same diamond specs, from the net
to a store retailer it really makes a significant difference in price
(as I am sure you are all aware).
Color: DEF (Colorless)
Clarity: VS1 and up
Carrots: 1.5 - 2.0
Certified GIA
Cut: Excellent
I have seen diamonds, with the specs above, on-line retailing at 6-7k
less than what I see them in the stores.
I will definitely look into Blue Nile, and some of the other sites
listed. If anyone has any other reputable on-line store suggestions
this would be very helpful.
Thank you all for taking such an interest in my questions. I
appreciate the feed back.
Peter W.. Rowe,
<DSOl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>Ok so now that is out there. I have been shopping around. I know
>>what I like when I see it. I will list the diamond specs that I have
>>chosen below. When I compare prices, same diamond specs, from the net
>>to a store retailer it really makes a significant difference in price
>>(as I am sure you are all aware).
>>
>>Color: DEF (Colorless)
>>Clarity: VS1 and up
>>Carrots: 1.5 - 2.0
>>Certified GIA
>>Cut: Excellent
>>
>>I have seen diamonds, with the specs above, on-line retailing at 6-7k
>>less than what I see them in the stores.
yup. Depends on the stores. In the old days, everyone sold diamonds for a
retail markup over wholesale that fell somewhere betwee 2 to 3 times the
wholesale cost. This is still the business model for much of the retail world
Everything from furnature to clothing to appliances, etc. Some things,
especially inexpensive items, get marked up a much higher percentage, so the
earnings per square foot of the retail space justify displaying the things. But
the internet has changed that, as I explained. Many retailers trying to be more
competative, have had to lower their margins (some raise the markup on the
mountings and everything other than the center diamond in order to still make
some profit on the sale), while others, especially the most visible, with the
most advertising and highest reputation (think Tiffany, Cartier, and many more),
have no reason to lower their profit margin. So comparing what you can find on
the internet diamond market with stores like that, you can often save as much as
half. For that savings, though, you loose the ability to sit with a sale
person, looking at multiple stones and having the fine nuances between them
explained. Your ability to make a choice is much more limited on the net,
simply because you're buying by the numbers and stats on a cert, rather than
based on the actual look of the stone, which often can be quite a bit more
subtle in variations and appeal, than the numbers themselves indicate.
A few comments on your chosen quality. Just my opinions as a longtime jeweler
and gemologist, and others may disagree. Well, Ok. Fair warning. Not just a
few comments. I get wordy when I do this, and this'll get long. But read it
please, carefully. there's 35 years of experience and training behind the
following tome... (grin)
>>Color: DEF (Colorless)
Color at DEF is wonderful. Color is something that affects the look of the
stone at any distance, so if you can see the stone at all, what you see is
affected by the color. But you pay for this, and pay quite a bit. Remember
that the color grades are placed as close together as the human eye can, with
training and ideal lighting, distinguish. Once a stone is mounted, while a
trained and experienced jeweler will see the difference between a D color stone
and a G color one, it's not actually all that great, and in most light, the
average consumer, even with stones side by side, would be hard pressed to see
much difference. And just because one stone is a slightly softer and warmer
tone (the lower color grade) doesn't mean it's any less beautiful. Dropping
down from a DEF to a G or H can save you thousands, and if you spend that on a
slightly larger size instead, you might find you prefer that difference. This
is the sort of decision where looking at several stones in the company of an
expert who is trying to earn his/her profit margin, not only can help you, but
can help justify that profit margin.
>>Clarity: VS1 and up
Clarity at VS1 and up. OK, that's nice. But why? Remember that clarity grades
of SI and better mean the inclusions in the stone are no longer visible to the
naked eye, at least in the face up position, which is what affects the look.
Inclusions get a bad rap. If highly included, a stone can indeed look poor, but
if you think of inclusions as the features mother nature left there, evidence of
the way the stone was formed, and distinguishing birthmarks that make a stone
completely unique from all other stones, then the appeal or lack of it of a
stone due to it's inclusions changes quite a bit. In some cases, inclusions can
be fascinating all by themselves. Some are just plain cracks and fissures,
sure. But others are individual different diamond crystals imbedded in the
stone, or crystals of other minerals (garnet, for example) in the diamond. These
can be quite fascinating, and hardly a cause to denegrate the desireability of a
given stone. Because diamond sellers (from DeBeers down to the jewelers and
everyone in between) wish to sell more costly diamonds, the whole rarity factor
gets a lot of air play. Very clean stones are indeed more rare than stones with
a few more inclusions. You pay a LOT for that rarity. But it's not something
you can actually see in normal use. You need a magnifier or microscope to see
the difference. Most consumers, shown a VS2 and a VVS2 (much cleaner) can't see
even the inclusions in the VS2 without help, and the difference between the
stones ends up having to be taken on faith. So the sales person says this high
clarity stone is a better stone and costs more. True. But better for whom? if
you're buying rarity, then indeed it's better for you. If, however, you're
buying an engagement diamond who's purpose is to adorn, and to symbolize a
relationship, and all the rest it's going to mean, then it's possible rarity or
the finances attached to that, are not very important, or shouldn't be. I'm
not saying you should buy a highly included stone. But take the time to look at
clarity options, and try to tune out the sales people who tell you a higher
clarity is always better. it's not. It's more costly, which is better for the
sales people. it's only better for you if you actually can appreciate it and
it means something to you other than some ephemeral perception of value.
Remember, by the way, that diamonds, for all their hype, are not actually all
that rare a gemstone. They're mined on every continent on earth, by the
millions of carats per year. While not common, and certainly not common in the
much rarer larger gems and fine qualities, they are still common enough that
the internet has been able to turn them into a commodity with almost standard
market pricing. Just try to find that sort of price structure with any of the
truely rare gem materials.
While I'll now backtrack a bit and agree with you that a VS1 stone is a very
nice and pretty diamond, I'd advise being more flexible here. Some of the SI1
stones are also very pretty, for less money, and the savings then can go to a
diamond better in other respects, or a nicer mounting, or perhaps towards the
home or furnature you and your new bride might need.
As to BETTER than a VS1, I'd actually advise against going better than that.
Diamonds in an engagement ring are subject to substantial wear and tear. Despite
the common perceptions, diamond is NOT indestructable. In fact, if you look
carefully at almost any diamond that's been worn for a few years, you'll find
minor abrasions, tiny nicks and chips on the girdle, or other evidence that the
stone is not brand new. Most of these things are often tiny and very hard to
see, and you need a loupe or microscope to see them. But they all affect the
clarity grade. Things that small on the surface of the stone don't much affect
the grade of, say, a VS2 or lower. Some few of them might knock a VS1 down to a
VS2.
But in the VVS grades, it becomes almost a certainty that eventually, your
bride's VVS1 or VVS2 or better diamond will no longer be that grade, but a VS1
or lower unless you get it recut. The difference in appearance, durability, or
utility as diamond jewelry is none at all. The only difference with these high
clarity grades is that they are rarer, and cost a lot more. You get nothing but
the added cost and rarity for your money with them, and you'll have the
assurance that this distinction will most likely be lost in time. This is not
true with the more modest clarity grades (VS1 and lower), which have a fair
chance of retaining their quality over time unless they suffer really
significant damage somehow (which also can happen, but that's what insurance is
for). My recommendation would be for a clarity between SI1 and VS1. No
higher. And if SI1, you want to look at it with a microscope or loupe and see
if you actually like the stone. They can vary in appeal, which the cert won't
show.
>>Carrots: 1.5 - 2.0
"Carrots" are a tasty root vegetable. Carats are a gem weight. 5 of them to a
gram to be exact. (and just to complete the set, "karats" is a measure of gold
purity)
For many women, more of these puppies seems to be better. Go figure. (grin) It
may be worth considering a larger stone for a given price, by cutting some other
less visible quality aspect. Or perhaps not. But something to consider. Do
note that popular demand for given sizes is driven by the group mentality and
DeBeers marketing. 30 years ago, most engagement rings were under a half carat
in size, and brides were quite happy with that. Now it seems DeBeers has
convinced a lot of people they need to spend a whole boatload of money on the
diamond, and it HAS to be over a carat, or more than that if you really want to
keep up with the Joneses. OK. Fine. Just understand that this desire is
driven by one of the most persistant and successful advertisng/marketing
campaigns in history. In 1900, few people got married with much more than a
plain gold wedding band. THAT is the real tradition. The wealthy often did
more, as usual, but that was more the exception than the rule. Even among the
wealthy then, the idea of a diamond engagement ring was pretty unusual. The
difference between then and now is, as I said, marketing and the fact that the
public, like any good flock of sheep, has followed the DeBeers prodding into now
insisting that they want these things. It's real enough, of course, that even
when we know it's a contrived and manufactured desire without a true historical
root (other than the brief 20th century), we still want em, and the brides want
them, and will be disappointed if we don't play along. Fine. Just understand
what all your hard earned cash is actually paying for here.
>>Certified GIA
See prior discussion on coice of labs. I like GIA and prefer them or AGS as
well.
>>Cut: Excellent
This one gets into one of the great areas of vagueness in diamonds. Good
cutting affects, as does color, everything you see about the stone, at virtually
any distance. In some respects, it's one of the most important aspects of the
quality of a diamond or other gem, yet unlike the other "C", on the GIA scale at
least, it doesn't actually have a precise grade. That's unfortunate. The AGS
certs DO give cutting a grade you can use to compare one stone with another,
which is one reason I like their certs. But even then, really judging cut from
a piece of paper is difficult at best. The quality of cutting is the result of
a number of factors, from craftsmanship to optical performance of the gem.
The basics of cut grading go like this:
If the largest possible round brilliant cut diamond is fashioned from the rough
stone, the result will have a larger than desireable table facet, shallower than
desired crown facets, and a somewhat deeper than desire pavilion. It will
maximize both weight and width for that crystal (which is what determines the
cost per carat for that given color and clarity.) The result is that a stone
cut to the ideal proportions, with the right angles and table size, etc etc,
will be slightly smaller in diameter, and weigh a bit less. Same end cost for
the stone, but because it weighs less, the cost per carat is then higher. That's
the simple economics of the proportions. Add in the factors of higher levels of
craftsmanship costing a bit more, and you get why better cutting makes a stone
more expensive.
your choices are these. You can buy a stone with poorer cutting, sometimes
called a spread stone, and what you get will be, and look, larger. Some people
prefer that, and for them this increase in diameter is more important than the
fact that doing this makes the stone less optically efficient, and makes it not
as good looking. For these folks, big is everything. The better cut stone
will be brighter looking, with more of a sense of "movement" or scintillation
and sparkle as the light changes, the viewer or the stone moves, or the like.
For my money and preference, at least, I want the cutting to be as good as
possible. As a craftsperson, I find it uncomfortable that someone might take a
material for which the price, percieved value, and marketplace is pretty much
manufactured, and then not at least give it the best possible look for the
material. I know that in the real world, that's not a position everyone will
agree with. But I'm a craftsman. Good cutting is for me a matter of ethics on
the part of the cutter, even if it's hard to really defend that view. Ethics
has little to do with it, and craftsmanship usually doesn't either. it's
economics, in the end. But my preference for good cutting remains. Personally,
I'd pretty much insist on a stone that has proportions close enough to the
theoretical ideals as to be able to be called an "ideal cut" These stones will
maximize total light reflection to the viewer and the other various optical
properties that we like to see in a diamond. So I'd not only ask for an
"excellent" cut description, I'd want an "ideal cut", at the least.
At the least? yeah, there's more. In recent years (mostly the last decade or
so), cutters have become even more rigorous in just how well they can do their
job. At the tiniest level, totally exact fact placement isn't something that
affects the overall optics of the stone. But getting every last facet
absolutely perfectly placed, well past the precision that used to be considered
the norm, is now possible, and gives us stones sometimes called "super cuts".
Many of these are brand name products, such as the "hearts and arrows" cuts, so
named for the very regular patterns in the reflections that can be seen in them
under specialized lightly. At normal viewing distances, the usual ideal cut
diamond does not look any different from the super cuts. But if your bride (or
you) take a really close look at the super cuts, perhaps with a loupe, the high
precision becomes notable, and a thing to perhaps marvel at, since it's still,
in the end, hand craftsmanship. These cuts aren't the product of some soulless
computer driven manufacturing line. They're the work of extremely fine diamond
cutting craftspeople, working to standards and possibilities that didn't exist
20 years ago. For me, at least, that's something to sit up and take notice of.
They do cost more, of course. But I think it's something worth considering.
There are several variants of the super cuts. Some are the standard 58 facet
round brilliant executed with extreme precision. (like the Hearts and Arrows
brand). Others play with the cut geometry itself, usually adding additional
facets to increase the complexity and uniqueness of the stones.
I work day to day with a lot of diamonds. I tend, like anyone, to take notice
of the nicer ones. The ideal cuts that cross my path get a nod of approval.
"That's a nice stone". Some respect, some appreciation of the fine workmanship,
and then I get on with it, set the stone, or do whatever else needs doing, and
go to the next job. But the super cuts that go past just being high precision,
perhaps with interesting new cutting patterns, or more complexity, now THOSE
catch my real attention. At least for a bit longer. Those are the ones I
might show to someone else in the shop to share the appreciation of a unique and
interesting gem. This is a distinction perhaps worth noticing. As I said
earlier, in the jewelry industry we treat diamonds as a commodity these days.
They're common enough that every jeweler has many of them, and any goldsmith
works with many of them daily. For us jaded types to stop and take notice now
and then requires a gem that steps beyond the ordinary. Really fine color and
clarity and cutting and size can all do it, of course. But for me, at least,
the really fine cutting is the most likely to get my nod of appreciation. Take
that for whatever it's worth. Maybe just me. But I know others who share that
view. Costs more, of course. Like anything. But personally, I think they're
worth it, once you've decided that a diamond, any diamond, is worth paying such
prices for.
>>
>>I will definitely look into Blue Nile, and some of the other sites
>>listed. If anyone has any other reputable on-line store suggestions
>>this would be very helpful.
Do check out the other site I mentioned. I've not dealt with them in a number
of years, and it's founder Ray Elsey sadly died earlier this year. But the last
time I helped someone get stones from him, perhaps six years ago, I found his
pricing to be substantially lower than most other internet sellers. Possible
simply because he didn't own the inventory. Back then, his diamond lists were
imported directly from the computer files of the importing and cutting firms he
was getting them from. So he could sell for a surprisingly low markup,
sometimes as little as 10 percent. I have, of course, no idea if this is still
the case. That low a margin makes it hard for even an internet business to stay
afloat (and we won't talk about what sites like that do to the rest of us in
this business...) and times have changed a lot since then. But I'll bet they
still give you a very good price. Knowledgeable people who're interested in
doing right by their customers.
Blue Nile, well, I also know them. Or at least the folks in their workshop.
Nice people (all goldsmiths, are by definition, wonderful people, of course,
unless they piss me off and I say otherwise... (grin)) They've built a large
and active business in relatively few years. Offer good value, again hard for
many "brick and morter" stores to compete with. I doubt they are quite as low
as tradeshop.com, but I can't really say for sure.
One oddity of the diamond trade, though. pay attention to the cert details,
like registration numbers. If looking at stones with certs, you may find that
several sellers will be trying to sell you the same stone, since all are doing
the same thing, communicating with the wholesaler who happens to have that
stone. With larger rare stones, you see this from time to time, and it makes it
especially easy to see who's giving you the best price. 2 carat is large
enough you might run into that situation...
And one final note. Please don't totally blow your whole budget on the
diamond. Save some for a good, well made, well designed mounting. Great
furnature in a well decorated living room isn't so enjoyable if the roof leaks
and the heating doesn't work. The setting has a lot to do with how long your
bride will be wearing the ring with enjoyment. And don't assume that always
more costly is always better. You can get mountings that are so totally
encrusted with tiny diamonds everywhere that there's not much metal left holding
the ring together. Flashy, but fragile. Others with some of this effect may be
done much better, equally flashy, and still be honoring the engineering and
metalurgy that makes a ring last a long time.
Hope all tht helps.
Peter Rowe
Abrasha
>
> Color: DEF (Colorless)
> Clarity: VS1 and up
> Carrots: 1.5 - 2.0
> Certified GIA
> Cut: Excellent
>
That's an enormous range. Prices will range from $20,000 for a 1.51 ct
F-VS1 to $74,000 for a 1.90 D - IF. All with GIA certs, and excellent cut.
You better narrow it down a bit. With all due respect, it is my
experience, that buyers who can spend 70 grand on a diamond do not hang
out in newsgroups. Nor would they call themselves "papa smurf".
Oh, BTW, I can better any deal you can find online. You just give me
the specs, (and please not as loosely defined as you gave) and I'll
email you a cert plus price.
Show me the money, and I'll show you the diamond.
--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com
Heinrich Butschal
>=20
>>> Ok so now that is out there. I have been shopping around. I know
>>> chosen below. When I compare prices, same diamond specs, from the ne=
t
>>> to a store retailer it really makes a significant difference in price=
>>> (as I am sure you are all aware).
>>>
>>> Color: DEF (Colorless)
>>> Clarity: VS1 and up
>>> Carrots: 1.5 - 2.0
>>> Certified GIA
>>> Cut: Excellent
>>>
=2E...
>=20
> And one final note. Please don't totally blow your whole budget on th=
e
> diamond. Save some for a good, well made, well designed mounting. Gre=
at
> furnature in a well decorated living room isn't so enjoyable if the roo=
f leaks
> and the heating doesn't work. The setting has a lot to do with how lon=
g your
> bride will be wearing the ring with enjoyment. And don't assume that =
always
> more costly is always better. You can get mountings that are so totall=
y
> encrusted with tiny diamonds everywhere that there's not much metal lef=
t holding
> the ring together. Flashy, but fragile. Others with some of this effe=
ct may be
> done much better, equally flashy, and still be honoring the engineering=
and
> metalurgy that makes a ring last a long time.
>=20
> Hope all tht helps.
>=20
> Peter Rowe
He should know that with this criteria he won=B4t find a diamond below 15=
=2E000,-=20
US Dollars.
Mit freundlichem Gru=DF,
Heinrich Butschal
--=20
Schmuck Gutachter und Schmuckverkauf http://www.butschal.de
Schmuck nach Ma=DF anfertigen http://www.meister-atelier.de
Firmengeschenke und Ehrennadeln http://www.goldschmiede-meister.com
Schmuckmanufaktur http://www.schmuckfabrik.de
Schmuck gut verkaufen und g=FCnstig kaufen http://www.schmuck-boerse.com
Heinrich Butschal
> On Mon, 23 Jun 2008 18:24:59 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry papa smurf
> <DSOl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>> Ok so now that is out there. I have been shopping around. I know
>>> what I like when I see it. I will list the diamond specs that I have
>>> chosen below. When I compare prices, same diamond specs, from the net
>>> to a store retailer it really makes a significant difference in price
>>> (as I am sure you are all aware).
>>>
>>> Color: DEF (Colorless)
>>> Clarity: VS1 and up
>>> Carrots: 1.5 - 2.0
>>> Certified GIA
>>> Cut: Excellent
>>>
>
> And one final note. Please don't totally blow your whole budget on the
> diamond. Save some for a good, well made, well designed mounting. Great
> furnature in a well decorated living room isn't so enjoyable if the roof leaks
> and the heating doesn't work. The setting has a lot to do with how long your
> bride will be wearing the ring with enjoyment. And don't assume that always
> more costly is always better. You can get mountings that are so totally
> encrusted with tiny diamonds everywhere that there's not much metal left holding
> the ring together. Flashy, but fragile. Others with some of this effect may be
> done much better, equally flashy, and still be honoring the engineering and
> metalurgy that makes a ring last a long time.
>
> Hope all tht helps.
>
> Peter Rowe
He should know that with this criteria he won´t find a diamond below 15.000,-
US Dollars.
Mit freundlichem Gruß,
Heinrich Butschal
--
Schmuck Gutachter und Schmuckverkauf http://www.butschal.de
Schmuck nach Maß anfertigen http://www.meister-atelier.de
Firmengeschenke und Ehrennadeln http://www.goldschmiede-meister.com
Schmuckmanufaktur http://www.schmuckfabrik.de
Schmuck gut verkaufen und günstig kaufen http://www.schmuck-boerse.com
Graver
> papa smurf wrote:
>
> > Color: DEF (Colorless)
> > Clarity: VS1 and up
> > Carrots: 1.5 - 2.0
> > Certified GIA
> > Cut: Excellent
>
> F-VS1 to $74,000 for a 1.90 D - IF. =A0All with GIA certs, and excellent =
cut.
>
> You better narrow it down a bit. =A0With all due respect, it is my
> experience, that buyers who can spend 70 grand on a diamond do not hang
>
> Oh, BTW, I can better any deal you can find online. =A0You just give me
> the specs, (and please not as loosely defined as you gave) and I'll
> email you a cert plus price.
>
> Show me the money, and I'll show you the diamond.
>
> --
> Abrashahttp://www.abrasha.com
OK!
Now that the intelligence issue has been reviewed, pick up your local
news paper and go to the classified section. You'll be able to find
some great buys on diamonds as this economy continues to get worse.
You'll find that most people will meet you at a jeweler of your choice
to have the stone verified, If not then you need not go any further
with any transaction. It's like the housing market, it's sad people
are losing their homes, but others are finding the best deals in
twenty years.
Good shopping,
Mark
Peter W.. Rowe,
<mger...@oh.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>>OK!
>> Now that the intelligence issue has been reviewed, pick up your local
>>news paper and go to the classified section. You'll be able to find
>>some great buys on diamonds as this economy continues to get worse.
>>You'll find that most people will meet you at a jeweler of your choice
>>to have the stone verified, If not then you need not go any further
>>with any transaction. It's like the housing market, it's sad people
>>are losing their homes, but others are finding the best deals in
>>twenty years.
>>
>> Good shopping,
>> Mark
Well, while shopping the classified ads is always an option (and that perhaps is
not much different from shopping ebay or Craigslist, where this thread started),
your suggestion, taken just as written, is a good way to get not exactly what
you think your getting.
One factor is that many people have an idea of the value of their diamonds based
on the insurance appraisal they may have gotten when they bought the thing. Or
in otherwords, they usually think of their diamond as being worth it's full,
undiscounted, retail value, and then they're willing to come down from there.
This is especially true if they've had the stone for a while, perhaps purchased
before internet shopping because such an important impact on the market. In
general, those value expectations many people have about their own diamonds are
often somewhat inflated, and their hopes for what they can get for the things is
also somewhat higher than the reality.
The second factor in your suggestion that raises a red flag is "the jeweler of
your choice to have the stone verified" thing.
OK. That's like asking your local new car salesman if the used car you're
trying to buy right next to his dealership is worth what your paying. For one
thing, unless you're prepared to pay this jeweler a proper fee for evaluating
the stone, he or she is unlikely to give it any real attention, so the
verification process might end with "yeah it's a diamond". If that. Diamond
grading is an exact and highly precise set of decisions that need some skill and
training to do accurately. Mistakes of one grade or two can mean thousands of
dollars, especially in the size range our original poster is talking about. And
the kicker is simply this? Most of those "jewelers of your choice" are likely
to be well experienced in selling jewelery, but will not normally be trained
gemologists or diamond graders. If you walk into the average shopping mall
jewelry store, your chances of being able to find someone who actually has ANY
reat training or knowledge of diamond grading can be slim indeed, and even at
the more extensive and well staffed shops, those folks who do have that
training, if there are any, won't be the sales clerks you're likely to be
talking to. Jewelers make jewelry and sell jewelery. Many of them know quite
a bit about gemstones. But only a few are really properly trained to do precise
diamond grading, and "verifying" your diamond can easily fall into that catagory
of skill.
You'd be better off, rather than meeing at the "jeweler of your choice", instead
meeting at the office (which might be a jewelry store, even so) of a properly
credentialed and trained gem and jewelry appraiser. Then expect to pay a
proper fee for the service of examining the stone and determining what it's
grades are. Even if you have an existing and proper certificate for the stone,
so making sure the diamond is the same one as listed on the cert, can require
more than just a quick look. The only times it's a pretty simple task is for
that smaller percentage of certified stones where a registration or
identification number has been laser engraved on the girdle, but even then, it
can take more than a simple loupe to find and read that engraving. And even
then, one must take the time to be sure the stone is still in the condition
described on the cert and hasn't been damaged in any way. Again, often not the
sort of thing within the skills of every jeweler.
You wouldn't ask for a good medical opinion of the fellow working behind the
photo counter at the local pharmacy. His store may sell the medicine to make
you better, but he's not the guy to do the diagnosis. In fact, if you're vision
is giving you trouble, you don't want to see the doctor in the gastroenterology
department either. You want the opthalmologist. Same thing here. If you want
accurate information, skill, and opinions, you've got to find the experts who
have the training to give it to you. You need a trained gemologist, not a
jeweler.
Peter
gruhn
Is "banana" a regular term in the industry? Just curious.
gruhn
s'.
Is a "blood diamond" a diamond that DeBeers didn't get a cut of the
profit on? Is it a diamond that was used to fund a rebellion that the
UN didn't approve of? Is the UN's approval really that excellent a
marker of "legitimacy" of uprising? Is the UN going to put a ban on
Iraqi "blood oil" sold under American (USA) auspices; "we'll fund the
war by selling the oil we grab there." Is a "blood diamond" a way
somebody can make a living in a ravaged country without having to kill
other people? Doesn't all the talk about "conflict-free,"
"transparency," "certification" sound suspiciously like big government
and busy-body hippies poking their clueless fingers where they don't
belong and or they will do some third party the most good?
I don't know. I do know that what I read about "blood diamonds" and
the quickness "oooo, don't buy blood diamonds" gets mentioned sure
makes me think it sounds like a load of propogandistic hooey.
Point? If you are going to take William's advice and avoid _POSSIBLY_
buying a "blood diamond," have a look into it and try to really
understand the issue for yourself before you mindlessly buy into some
other person's boycott. Boycotts are trendy and so often misguided.
This one may well be too. And when they are, they do tremendous harm.
> Pass them through an international border (by post or in your pocket) you
> stand a chance of getting them impounded.
Now that's a good reason. Depending on the actual chance.
> artificial market that has a very limited lifetime now that everyone has
> realised that it's a cartel cheating them.
Exactly. "Ooo, you have to buy our diamonds. Our diamonds aren't
'bloody'." Cartel. Cheating.
> Buy rubies, =A0you can't fake them or manufacture them.
Because they provide similar look? I notice you mentioned investment,
are we sure that somebody posting in _jewelry_ is looking for
investment? Though Wikipedia mentions downward pressure on ruby prices
in the 1990s so maybe you aren't thinking of them for investment.
And I'm confused about not being able to manufacture ruby. Because you
can. Though "fake" ones seems to be frowned upon. Is there good reason
for that? Again, back to Wikipedia, they mention that a completely
flawless ruby will be suspected of being artificial. Suspected, not
known. So clearly I'm missing something here. Or are we just talking
CDs vs. vinyl or a fondness for provenance? And I'm not sure "ewww, I
don't want it because it doesn't have junk in it" sounds a likely
argument for a clear gem stone.
gruhn
One more facet of the reason to be suspicious of the issue.
> them come from Sierra Leone where HMG has just fought a short but nasty war
> and is busy spending loads of money on making sure it's a nice stable
Somebody with power guns and money telling me "oh, don't let the
people we don't like have money. They're 'bad.'" I don't trust 'em.
Again, I don't know what's really going on with "blood diamonds" but
from what I can tell, I sure don't trust the issue. Looks like a scam.
> democracy.
WAY OT : A democracy can't be stable.
> Then I must have misheard the chap at one gem supplier.
Ah good, you had me freaking out. Though I was willing to understand
that "for some reason the fakes just don't count." Who can tell with
people, eh?
gruhn
r
> example, take some stones and know for certain that they did not come fro=
m
> Sierro leone (one of the biggest problem areas), =A0but the machine can't=
say this
> for certain for all locations, especially stones from other parts of afri=
ca with
Is time an issue? Can they say "it (probably) came from Fooland AND it
did so within the past 5 years"? Because, if "the bad people" only
started selling diamonds four years ago, cutting out diamonds that
source from Fooland before then seems off target.
Or do "old" diamonds just not circulate? Would the ones in question be
uncut?
> similar geology. =A0And then there are the stones from Sierra Leone that =
happen to
> be legal. =A0Perhaps mined legally before the war, or since, etc. etc. =
=A0No
Maybe I should read ahead ;-)
> It's a better test than nothing,
Sounds like since...
> but a long way from being even close to perfect
=2E..it's actually a worse test than nothing.
> this). =A0Nice bright red ruby, but easy to identify due to curved growth=
marks.
Easy "with a loupe and an educated eye" or "looks funny to clueless
Gruhn"?
> a few gem dealers and even trained gemologists have been fooled by one or=
more
> of the various ruby synthetics or treatments from time to time...
So back to a point I hinted at before - if even the experts are
fooled, does it matter? I guess it boils down to "what do we
value" (sparkly rocks!). And no, we don't value "fake" "manufactured"
"synthetic" even if such are exactly the same or better. We do seem to
value "dug it out of the ground". If so, I've no idea why.
Peter W.. Rowe,
Only if the jeweler using it happens to be also in the fruit business, or
hungry, or something. But the poster who used that term is a german speaker,
who's use of english may at times involve unconventional translations. I
suspect he meant something like "lemon", which does have a non-fruit well
understood meaning in consumer products in general.
Heinrich Butschal
So I wanted to express that also with diamonds whose 4-c qualities sounds
good or fair in the first view, there could have special remarks witch grade
the diamond down. A jeweller or expert will recognize it and avoid to
recommend such a stone to his good customer.
Some who are looking for the best price will have a good chance to get such
odd stones.