"Tacky" (what sells) vs. "Art"
Angela Major
wanderings and results from a "pattern exchange" on another
list I belong to prompt me to pose the following question to
those of you who create stained glass items for the
commercial market...
....how do you balance what you feel is art with what seems
to sell - much of which is - IMHO incredibly tacky? (to
qualify on my official list of tacky, objects might include
anything with a butterfly, angel, hummingbird, stepping
stone, suncatcher, clown, SGO Overlay, -- anything that
looks like it belongs in a garage sale from the 70's, etc.)
I'm sure we all have our own opinion about what qualifies as
tacky, and I know I'm in the "weird minority" on these, as
there must be a LOT of people out there willing to fork over
real $$ for this....stuff. Boggles the mind.
How do you do it? It CAN'T be just the issue of $$ - as
I've visited some sites featuring the work of some VERY
talented artists, who include large commissioned pieces that
are simply grotesque - nothing but a menagerie of crap &
colors thrown together that the client put on a list - which
the artist accommodated and executed.
Don't get me wrong! I'm not condemning anyone for creating
junk to pay the bills - I TOTALLY understand the business
aspect of it, and am not arrogant enough to think that I
wouldn't do the same thing if offered enough $$ -- my
question is literally - HOW do you force yourself to
actually do it?
I'm faced with a low level conflict of taste dilemma myself
- only not for money - for obligation.... My dear mother
has specifically requested that I make her a particular
panel of a ship (a spanish galleon) panel for their house at
the beach. Not only is the subject matter completely ugly,
but the glass & colors she has requested is nauseating. I
REALLY want to make her something beautiful - so many much
nicer sea life subjects available, fish using some great
ring mottle, etc, but THIS is going to look like, well - you
know. I DREAD that she will tell someone who made it!
How do you do it????!!!
Argh...
Angela
Emerald Artworks
The items you refer to as "tacky" I label "craft items". Some
craftsmen/women construct such items because they, like you say, sell. Most
of the public are a very uneducated lot, when the subject of art/craft is
presented, even well done crafts. If it is the right price and somewhat
cute they buy. The market is flooded with cute. Surly the phase will pass.
(heheh)
They have pinched purses. ! They plainly won't pay for the "good stuff."
I follow this procedure :
Once I have a feel for what the client wants, I begin the drafting of the
pattern. Then when it is time for draft approval I have the glass chosen
already for them to approve, to finish the project. Choose a few so they
feel like they are given a choice. It is all psychological. You provide
the correct glass palette, they feel like they helped in the creation and
choose what you want. The piece is given a worthy presentation and all are
happy.
If you are presented with a hard sell, you can always refuse to construct
the piece. However this isn't going to get you anywhere. Someone down the
road will do the piece and they are getting paid.
" Art" is in the eye of the beholder. Some decors call for wild and
esthetically displeasing "art". On its own, yuk. Yet in that just right
surrounding, it fits. Go figure ?
Now, we aren't supposed to use the word "tacky". Least ways, not to loud.
Enjoy every piece you do and give them a well constructed project. If the
glass choice isn't to your liking don't frett too much, and don't compromise
the integrity of the piece.
Just don't sign it..........
Mary Hunt
Michele Blank
the word to me refers to STICKY situations which it appears you are in. My
own personal way of solving a request for a subject that seems unartistic is
to design it so it becomes drop dead beautiful. A nice ocean landscape
perhaps and what is that dot on the horizon? Oh I see, a sailing ship. Often
, a subject can be made to appear tacky or to appear incredibly artistic
completely via the design used to illustrate it.Picture Disney's version of
Tarzan with an actual human of the same proportion. DIG IT? Wait for the
creative thread, then run with it. Michele, P.S. Love to hear how it turns
out.
Angela Major wrote in message <37A753B7...@mpulsecmms.com>...
Marrrrrrk
ARE a lot of suncatchers that appear ugly to my eye.) I personally don't
like the rich, and I don't want to sell only to scum like them -- so I sell
smaller things that possibly nice people can afford. I know throughout
history artists have prostituted themselves to the wealthy. Screw that.
glass
has their own taste. Not only do I hate any stained glass with horses,
clowns, ships or dogs but I hate painting on velvet and oil paintings sold
at Sears.... go figure... BUT to some these are beautiful and who are we to
condemn them. If my MOTHER wanted a stained glass panel with dogs in puke
green well thats exactly what she'd get..... hey she's YOUR MOTHER!!! AND
I'd make her think that I thought this was the most beautiful thing I'd ever
created!!! Don't hurt Momma's feelings!!
As for doing non-family-obligation work that chafs your artistic vision....
. I don't. I'm not that hungry yet..... but if I were then I might LIVE FOR
HUMMINGBIRDS... you never know till you are there.. hey for that matter I
might eat humans given the right situation....<grinning.... sort of>
--
Best,
Nancy (aka Glass)
===============================================================
Visit the Glass Orchids website:
http://www.cyberstreetfair.com/glassorch.htm
Wholesale and Retail brochures available upon request.
Michele Blank wrote in message <7o7ul8$glc$1...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>...
>I have often been faced with tacky (and recently about 4 times today?!) and
>the word to me refers to STICKY situations which it appears you are in. My
>own personal way of solving a request for a subject that seems unartistic
is
>to design it so it becomes drop dead beautiful. A nice ocean landscape
>perhaps and what is that dot on the horizon? Oh I see, a sailing ship.
Often
>, a subject can be made to appear tacky or to appear incredibly artistic
>completely via the design used to illustrate it.Picture Disney's version of
>Tarzan with an actual human of the same proportion. DIG IT? Wait for the
>creative thread, then run with it. Michele, P.S. Love to hear how it turns
>out.
>Angela Major wrote in message <37A753B7...@mpulsecmms.com>...
>>Some recent threads, as well as my astonishment from web
>>wanderings and results from a "pattern exchange" on another
>>list I belong to prompt me to pose the following question to
>>those of you who create stained glass items for the
>>commercial market...
>>
>>....how do you balance what you feel is art with what seems
>>to sell - much of which is - IMHO incredibly tacky? (to
>>qualify on my official list of tacky, objects might include
>>anything with a butterfly, angel, hummingbird, stepping
Brad Elliott
I think we don't see the artsy stuff on the web because we are afraid
everyone will copy it! I have only made one "craft project" in my life, and
that was when I learned how to do stained glass. I have told myself that I
will not do another....but who knows!
Angela Major
particularly loved Mary Hunt's approach of controlling the
options right up front. *brilliant* solution :)
Seems we all have different concepts about what consititutes
art vs. "craft" and where we draw the line. And, tho I love
ya dearly, Marrrk (neighbor!), I can't disagree with your
social commentary more.
Since working here on the mall for the last two years, I'm
in day-to-day "touch" with the *real* "scum" of the earth
who not only don't take responsibility for their own lives
and sustinance, but expect others to contribute to their
debauchery. While - on the other hand, I daily see many
people who have made different choices about what to make of
their lives, and who have chosen careers that people are
willing to compensate them for at a greater level, commonly
be exceptionally generous and giving to their community -
with no expectations of reward or self-interest, or
political agenda.
I know that I find it necessary to work 2 jobs in order to
provide the kind of home, food, and *very* modest extras,
etc for myself and daughter, because of the choices I've
made in my life, the skills I do and do not have, and how
hard I'm willing to work to earn different opportunities. I
don't begrudge anyone who has made different choices &
is/was willing to do the work necessary to earn the the
compensation they earn (education, journeyman time learning
a marketable trade, etc.) I try judge who is good/"nice"
and "scum" by their souls and their tangible demonstration
of giving of themselves to others - not their bank account.
So far, that's been a more accurate indicator of who is
worth counting among my "A" list of human beings :)
JMHO -
Angela
glass
of the pond as can 'angel fish'. (cute I know but hey.... )
--
Best,
Nancy (aka Glass)
===============================================================
Visit the Glass Orchids website:
http://www.cyberstreetfair.com/glassorch.htm
Wholesale and Retail brochures available upon request.
Angela Major wrote in message <37A8960A...@mpulsecmms.com>...
tinkerbell
angel stepping stone.......hehehehehe tinkerbell
Emerald Artworks
>
glass
--
Best,
Nancy (aka Glass)
===============================================================
Visit the Glass Orchids website:
http://www.cyberstreetfair.com/glassorch.htm
Wholesale and Retail brochures available upon request.
tinkerbell wrote in message <7oapo7$bml$0...@208.207.71.167>...
Carlross
I feel it's my duty to interject My take on things here.
Mary Hunt said the following in a message:
>The items you refer to as "tacky" I label "craft items"
I have trouble with your use of the word craft as craftsmen are very in tune
with the same aesthetics as an artists but are also looking for perhaps a
utilitarian aspect to the work. So Rather than separating "art" from "craft" I
feel we need to separate "craft" from "crap" I as a potter and glass artist
consider myself an artist as well as a craftsman. both of which I am equally
proud of. I am also proud I am not a "crapsman" I do what moves me not what
would sell specifically. I try to make things I'd buy not what everyone would.
I figure the worst case scenario there is if it doesn't sell, I'll take it
home. IMHO the glass projects from somone else's pattern book can go right next
to the plastic canvas coasters and 101 uses for empty beer cans.
Just my take on things,
Carl Ross
Lake Avenue Ceramic And Glass Studio
Phillips, WI
Emerald Artworks
I stand corrected. I so tried to be politically correct and not offend the
quality craftsmen around us. I figured they would assume I wasn't referring
to their work. You know when the work you do is of a fine quality nature.
Then too, the person crafting crap knows that as well.
Mary Hunt, apologizing to the sensitive nature of a label.
>
Neon John
Please DON'T be corrected. "Craft" is a codeword which means
schlok. That is, if I see a "crafts" show, I'll expect to see
painted lightbulbs, crude pine wood toys, painted saw blades,
paintings on black velvet, etc. While I consider myself a craftsman
with skills ranging from glass working to machineshop work to
computer programming, I KNOW that when someone uses the word "craft"
in context with "art", "craft" means schlok work. I also know that
were I to display my work at a "craft" show, people would expect to
walk off with pieces for $5. That's just the nature of the game.
John
--
John De Armond
johngd...@bellsouth.net
Neon John's Custom Neon
Cleveland, TN
"Bendin' Glass 'n Passin' Gas"
Emerald Artworks
Truly, I don't want to upset anyone, it isn't my intention. I am very
picky about what I purchase. I want artwork. I want signatures. I desire
original one of kind work. That is not to say Sally (a fictitious person)
desiring wooden butterflies to hang off the front door of her refrigerator,
doesn't consider her butterflies art.
The art/craft thing in my observatory state comes to:
It doesn't mater what you have, what price it is, what medium you have for
sale/jury. Some instances, it doesn't even matter that you are a master of
what you do. Comes down to being in the right place at the right time, to
get recognition. Be that by sale or award.
I have seen incredible work looked over and an award placed on the sloppiest
representation...........usually because the "artist" made themselves
inseparable from the judge, just an observation on my part. I am sure the
judge was very fair in the judging.
All an artist can hope to do is the best representation of their medium.
Know that when it sells the buyer appreciates their purchase and stands a
great chance not to end up in the next years garage sale.
I too am a snob when it comes to art/craft. I too judge, because I know
the difference. Maybe that is why it all offends us so. Because WE do know
the difference. Our senses become enraged. We are constantly needing to
defend our prices. Explain, defend........tactics that shouldn't be upon an
artist.
We just want to be desired and appreciated and paid for our ability.
It doesn't matter how delicately this issue is raised. Their are always
going to be hackles raised in offense. Just the nature of the human. These
human so offensed.......go take a long, hard look at what you are creating.
Is it the best you can do? Are you doing original material, or market
patterning? Does it have "finesse"?
Now be honest. If it is honestly a quality representation, then obviously
this thread is not being directed toward your work.
Mary Hunt
NHunkele
>Please DON'T be corrected. "Craft" is a codeword which means
>schlok. That is, if I see a "crafts" show, I'll expect to see
>painted lightbulbs, crude pine wood toys, painted saw blades,
>paintings on black velvet, etc. While I consider myself a craftsman
>with skills ranging from glass working to machineshop work to
>computer programming, I KNOW that when someone uses the word "craft"
>in context with "art", "craft" means schlok work. I also know that
>were I to display my work at a "craft" show, people would expect to
>walk off with pieces for $5. That's just the nature of the game.
>
>John
>
>--
>John De Armond
>johngd...@bellsouth.net
>Neon John's Custom Neon
>Cleveland, TN
>"Bendin' Glass 'n Passin' Gas"
Uh, John, I'm gonna disagree a bit with you, here. In the Village of
Westfield, NY there is a craft show in August and another in November. Along
with the schlok I have seen some absolutely lovely stained glass art, some from
commercial patterns, many pieces designed by the artist and priced well over
$5. Yes, there is the usual assortment of sun catchers, mirrors and picture
frames, but it wasn't all schlok. Now, in New England, I'm searching out craft
shows to see what craftsmanship is here.
Norma
Michele Blank
my FINE CRAFT does, steak&lobster, champagne,too, on occassion. I have
never considered my designs as tacky, even tho they sell so well, I bust my
butt to make these things . My FINE CRAFT is copyrighted,by me in Wash.. My
definition ,at least in stained glass. is craft is when you use pre-made
patterns, steal others ideas and change them, or use incorrect technique to
the point of where the piece is as poorly"crafted" as that seen coming out
of ,say, Taiwan.While art ain't always pretty, sometimes even the subject
matter may be tacky (to you), if original and well executed it is not
SHLOCK. I don't normally consider suncatchers a legitimate artform BUT,
there have been exceptions when they were so original and well executed that
I had to allow the possible inclusion of them in MY categorizing as Fine
Craft.I will be awaiting the next bout. Michele
Brian
With that said, let me relate this. I went into my local Hobby store
last week, and saw a whole new shipment of chinese c**p lamps out. Now
along with their hideous blown fixtures, their revolting foiled shades,
and bases that look like they were cast in parking lot gravel and then
drug behind camels to smooth them off, we have reverse painted glass.
It was all very lovely, with an artistic expertise that can only be
achieved by sitting and repeating the same damned pattern ten hours a
aday for 6 days a week. These people don't even clean their brushes,
when they finish the red, they move to the pink brush, and then the
green one, and so forth. The colors were all strong, bright, and really
caught the eye, sitting there with the lights off.
Subtlety? none. Originality? missing. Quality? It ruined my day
just seeing them.
Out of the blue, the squirrels in my attic kicked in, and I started
channeling voices:
Old lady: "Oh, my, look at that lovely lamp there! It has a rose
painted on it! Wait, maybe that is a peony. Whatever. It sure is
pretty!"
Next old lady: yes, that is just lovely. Look how bright and strong
those colors are! I sure bet that EVERYONE will notice that if I put it
on the little green table that I got from Berta."
old lady: "It is a shame, isn't it? These are just like that stuff
that Mary Hunt makes, isn't it? If she would sell her stuff here, she
wouldn't have to worry about money any more, and she sure would stay
busy. She is such a nice lady, too. Maybe we need to go and tell her
that she could sell all of her stuff to the store here, and do her
patriotic duty by keeping jobs in America. Come on, let's get three.
that will be less than $100. I like the one with the pig painted on it
for the breakfast table, and I want the one that looks like golf ball to
give to Phil this Xmas. You know phil, he has over a thousand golf
balls on a rack on his wall. He had a cabinet maker come in and make
it, for over $1,000."
I went home, showered, washed my scalp with lye soap, and cleaned my
ears with a phillips head screw driver. I heard those damned voices all
night anyway.
Tacky, to me, is to pretend that your merchandise is just the same as
that which is better made and more expensive.
Tacky is to take your interests and force an artist to do silly things
like Cigars, holstein cows, babies mooning, and other things. I will
not do things just to complete a collection, or enhance a decorating
theme. I refused a cow, a bass, and a semi truck. Obsessions make bad
art.
tacky is to take the cheapest materials, borrow a pattern, and pretend
that it is original art.
tacky is to do anything without doing your best, paying attention to the
details, and repeating to yourself, " I could be tiffany."
Craft, art, call it what you will. If you don't give it your all, you
should be ashamed. I sure as hell am when I goof up.
One last thing? we love oriental rugs. We buy only hand knotted and
natural fibers and dyes, and have a provenance for everyone we own. A
friend of my wife saw our blue silk chinese rug and Squealed "Oh, you
got that at Wal marts too!"
I nearly chucked her over the landing bannister.
Jim V
Given all the factors... I think that maybe you overlook one: The fact that
beauty, as well as evil, is very in the eye of the beholder.
I walk, sometimes, around the perimeter of Balboa Island, Newport Beach,
CA... and see, in houses that cost in the multiple millions of dollars,
stained glass that can only (in my eye) be described as "having no redeming
social value"... yet it obviously was commissioned as yours is, because
someone wanted it.
I don't think that I advance art one whit... but, by God, if the client
wants it, the client should have it.
Faced the same thing a number of years ago. Mom wanted a "light catcher" of
a California Quail. Light catchers fall into the same catagory (for me) and
stuff made from 3rd grad coloring books. I really dreaded the job. Finally
did it. When my own Mother smiled that much at something I did for her... I
got paid... and for the part about not wanting to do it.
In this instance.... I would say that the motivation is pretty easy: it IS
your Mom, for Sakes. It's going to maek HER happy. It's YOUR job to
make the galleon the best it can be, given the colors she wants. You gotta
have SOME leeway here; select the glass moer carefully. Make it a
creative/craftsmanship challange.... make it MORE than the design was.
Now I'll shut up and see how in the minority my opinion is!
-jim
Jim V
It seems that there is a feeling that if somthing is pretty ordinary, and
subject to manufactured mass produciton, or multiple copies by a hand-making
person, that makes it tacky and crappy.
After YEARS of stained glass I'm in the throws of getting a handle on glass
blowing (the really hard stuff with furnaces and blow pipes and all). And I
am looking FIRST for something I can make that will be attractive -
probably tumblers - that I can learn to execute well and design in some
[relatively] unique, attractive way. And Then Shall I Sell Them.
And THAT is the point. As you remarked - you work two jobs to feed yourself
& family. EVERYTHING we do has to bring us income. We HAVE to make things
that sell or (a) we can't buy more glass and (b) we will live with so much
there's no room to work.
We really are salesmen[persons] of our stuff. If we aren't we're not going
to eat very well. BUT: that doesn't mean it has to be ugly just to sell.
You will all be relieve to know that I WILL read all the responses... but
I promise NOT to add yet another 2 cents to it!
- Jim
Neon John
NHunkele wrote:
>
> >
> >Please DON'T be corrected. "Craft" is a codeword which means
> >schlok.
>
> Uh, John, I'm gonna disagree a bit with you, here. In the Village of
> Westfield, NY there is a craft show in August and another in November. Along
> with the schlok I have seen some absolutely lovely stained glass art, some from
> commercial patterns, many pieces designed by the artist and priced well over
> $5. Yes, there is the usual assortment of sun catchers, mirrors and picture
> frames, but it wasn't all schlok. Now, in New England, I'm searching out craft
> shows to see what craftsmanship is here.
> Norma
Probably newbies to the show circuit. We made that mistake in the
beginning too. Displayed gorgeous stained glass in the midst of the
aforementioned "crafts". Never heard so much bitching over price in
my life. Everyone wanted stuff for $10. We learned fast.
Emerald Artworks
As I said WE know better. I didn't get that far into my statement because I
was getting lengthy. When the master of a craft. Craft is the technique,
painting, soldering, drawing are all techniques. Once mastered, you are a
master craftsman.............when the line is crossed over from craftsman to
artist is when you are not tolerant of the things around you that are as you
described in your story. When you as the artist, are striving to always
perfect your technique, will not subject yourself any longer to perform
those commissions that are a insult to your ability. That is when you are
an ARTIST. We look at the "stuff" and are appalled that these uneducated
people that are amongst us comparing our creations, our masterpieces to
marketed atrocities..........pleeeeasse there IS NO comparison. To be
educated............the whole thing comes down to being educated in the
realm of medium you are working or collecting. Those uneducated........too
bad they buy junk.
This has been debated on another NG and I was bashed to death about
insisting on the difference, to be sure there IS one ! I try to keep my
statements to a political correct wording. I still try to make a point,
however, only the cleverest amongst us will get it.
Have a great afternoon, oh clever one,
Mary
this has nothing to do with performing any task described and necessary to
pay bills. this is about description..........everyone and everyone ! must
perform aghast tasks while creating a career. Eventually, yes it will
happen, you find yourself in a place when no longer you need to accept
any-any commission presented. Your going to be allowed to express your
creativism because your going to be at the place your striving everyday to
get to. It happens !!!
Now let's get back to work peaceful like and not throwing
fireballs..........please.
oh and one more thing, being a fine craftsman is an art in itself!
Emerald Artworks
>
>
Emerald Artworks
by a master craftsman as you have implied yourself to be Mr. Jim, is
producing crap.
Like was said earlier, and if y'all could absorb more than one phrase at a
time. What has been said is there is a difference, and you know there is,
with crafty craft........a Popsicle hat, now I'm sure you are going to rush
right and purchase one of those....hmh maybe ya will, but it is an EXAMPLE
nonetheless, of a craft. Craft........craftsmen/artist.............art.....
there are big differences. Ha, for example big differences.... in what the
project brings.....you know money...seems to be a focal point.
A craft project mmmmmmm $10.00 A finely executed piece from a
craftsman.......1000.00 + Recognized (notice this word) artist
10,000.00 +
There are differences. Yes, art is in the eye of the beholder. Art, is
also only worth the price you can get from it. Being recognized is an
accident.
Mary Hunt
Geoff
Craft debate?
People who pickle sharks in formaldehyde or take pictures of their own
spleens are artists, right? Who the heck wants to be grouped with those
weirdos.
--
Geoff
Michele Blank
I, for one get out and beat the street at those art shows), Now Is HE REALLY
an ARTIST? He does not even touch the glass, has his crew do it, then has
installers hang it. He spent thousands to promote his work, else he would
not now be as recognized as he is. Michele
>
>
Emerald Artworks
definite share of accident, who you know , right place at right time.
M. Hunt
Michele Blank wrote in message <7oekga$9sv$1...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>...
Angela Major
I'm sorry if this is ancient history to you. Being fairly
new I guess I'm entering a developmental stage that includes
curiosity as to where the art/craft lines are drawn and how
others see this line and deal with issues of taste vs.
sales. I really *appreciate* everyone's input. Its new to
me!
Angela
Mike Savad
>
> Being recognized is promotion, not just accident, ask Chihuly( which is why
> I, for one get out and beat the street at those art shows), Now Is HE REALLY
> an ARTIST? He does not even touch the glass, has his crew do it, then has
> installers hang it. He spent thousands to promote his work, else he would
> not now be as recognized as he is. Michele
>
> >
> >
in a way you can call him today's tiffany, from a business stand point.
tiffany did some of the stuff, but for every thing that came out of that
factory he got the credit. in fact he still is getting the credit, and
he's been dead for quite a while...
---Mike Savad
--
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
Joan
>"Craft" is a codeword which means
>schlok. That is, if I see a "crafts" show, I'll
>expect to see painted lightbulbs, crude
>pine wood toys, painted saw blades,
>paintings on black velvet, etc.
There are regional differences in what shows are called. In the
Northeast even high-end very contemporary shows are often called "Craft
Shows". "Art Shows" are more often reserved for two dimensional "fine
art", along with non functional 3-d art. Unfortunately, I feel this
causes confusion for both the public, and for
artists/craftspersons/vendors/ (whatever) in what to expect.
Joan
~I'm out of my mind; feel free to leave a message!~
noneya
You? Me? If a person wants to buy a stepping stone, hummingbird, whatever,
that is his or her right. What you design may be tacky to me and vice
versa. I feel the downfall to stained glass as a whole is the prima donna
attitude some "artist's" have. Why not celebrate the diversity of this
craft..and that is what it is. Enjoy the diversity instead of downing what
you feel to be tacky.
Carlross
you need to get a life of some sort if you can post half a dozen replies in one
day.
I was just stating my opinion, one I feel is common among professional artists
and art professors at the finest institutions of art and craft. I use the
example of the Joe L. Evins Appalachian Center For Crafts In Smithville,
Tennesee. they teach the future craft industry what we have been discussing:
The production and marketing of marketable craft productions.
The word craft has once again been smeared by your misuse of it. At the
Appalachian Center, they don't teach the crap you incorrectly call crafts. They
teach the skills necessary to make it as a craftperson. They have excellent
facilities and faculty for glass, clay, fibers, metal and blacksmithing; they
start with the raw materials and create useful and tasteful works of
craftsmanship. Nothing from a hobby shop; all things that need taste, an
artistic eye, and skill.
Is it that hard to understand??
The question shouldn't be art or craft
But rather craft or crap
if it's crap call it that. and sell it to the old ladies with bad vision
I hope that clears things up for you, if not lighten up and lay off the
caffeine
Carlross
subject ART vs. CRAFT. this heated debate is reminiscent of one that came
along about two years ago on that newsgroup
Carl Ross
miesle
was no exception.. Our observations(we are both rather creative and do many
'crafts') is that the more we knew about the process the artist went through
for their completed product, the less 'valuable' we found it to be.......on
the flip side the less we knew about an artists method the 'more valuable'
we found it to be. Thus, the newer the technique, design, and the farther
from our knowledge of craftsmanship, the the less 'tacky' or valuable it
becomes.
Vicki
Carlross <carl...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990807004210...@ng-cg1.aol.com...
miesle
miesle
miesle
Geoff
probably the only definition, tacky. For tacky, read populist. 'Good'
music is the stuff nobody else has heard of, 'good' art the stuff nobody
would hang in their living room unless someone else were likely to see
it and appreciate one's obvious sensitivity.
Surely the craftsperson/artist/artisan can only claim any integrity for
their work if they are not looking over their shoulders to see how the
customers like it?
Geoff
Brian
recognize it when he saw it. Art seems to me to be like that in many
ways.
I have thought about this for a while,and here are some characteristics
of art.
Art will be done by someone dedicated to creating a new and unique item,
and the artist will put great effort into making it appeal to the
senses. An artist is never happy just recreating yesterday's headlines
Art should affect the emotions of the viewer. A window with a deer in
it for a client who shoots deer may be art, but it is pandering to his
interests, and he probably doesn't appreciate its artistic value.
Art may not always be beautiful or in style, but it will always have
value to a portion of people who see it, because they recognize its
artistic merit.
Art may be a copy, a re-interpretation, it may be mass produced, or it
may be one of a kind. the physical qualities and how it appeals to a
viewer are more important than what it actually is, or if there are
thousands of the item available for sale.
A reasonable person with an appreciation for fine things will generally
preserve art when it has lost its personal appeal. Where the owner may
throw away items of "craft" quality, "art" is what will be most
energetically passed on to others.
Art is not something that was copied off of a commercially produced
pattern, it cannot be taken out of a coloring book. Art can, however,
be inspired by these sources, just as it can be inspired by real life.
The difference is in whether the artist put his own creation on the
project, or if it was just a manipulation of existing patterns.
Art is usually not created in response to a detailed demand. When a
client orders a red rose, with a green hummingbird, and an angel wearing
a blue dress with pink wings, we have really stepped away from the role
of artist to a degree. Using traditional and favorite themes does not
take away artistic merit, but it can make art dull and repetitive.
Art is usually an intensely personal thing. People find one thing ugly
and another beautiful based on personal taste, but very rarely actually
consider artistic merit or the quality of the work.
Art cannot ever have pictures of semi trucks in it.
Art cannot be cut out of used shipping pallets by scroll saws.
Art costs more than art-like stuff, because you cannot mass produce art
by the millions in bangladesh.
Art will not be cheap if it is imported, nor can art be found cheaply
overseas. A true art grade object cannot be made by the semi-slave
labor that makes the "sort of" art, and good art is always more costly
than the average product of any economy.
Art is not sold at roadside stands by little old men who bring it in
from wherever they get that stuff.
Art is what we do when we are at our best. Crafts is what we do when
something ain't right, but we need to do it anyway.
Carlross wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I feel it's my duty to interject My take on things here.
>
> Mary Hunt said the following in a message:
>
> >The items you refer to as "tacky" I label "craft items"
>
> I have trouble with your use of the word craft as craftsmen are very in tune
> with the same aesthetics as an artists but are also looking for perhaps a
> utilitarian aspect to the work. So Rather than separating "art" from "craft" I
> feel we need to separate "craft" from "crap" I as a potter and glass artist
> consider myself an artist as well as a craftsman. both of which I am equally
> proud of. I am also proud I am not a "crapsman" I do what moves me not what
> would sell specifically. I try to make things I'd buy not what everyone would.
> I figure the worst case scenario there is if it doesn't sell, I'll take it
> home. IMHO the glass projects from somone else's pattern book can go right next
> to the plastic canvas coasters and 101 uses for empty beer cans.
>
> Just my take on things,
Brad Elliott
miesle <mie...@cac.net> wrote in message
news:QKVq3.708$L83....@newsfeed.slurp.net...
JK Sinrod
we thrill our customers. I get lots of fan mail from visitors to my web page
gushing over something that took me a few minutes to make. That in itself
answers your question I think.
Sinrod Stained Glass Studios
http://members.aol.com/JKSinrod/sinrod.html
Coney Island Memories
http://members.aol.com/JKSinrod/page4.html
Angela Major <ama...@mpulsecmms.com> wrote in message
news:37A753B7...@mpulsecmms.com...
> Some recent threads, as well as my astonishment from web
> wanderings and results from a "pattern exchange" on another
> list I belong to prompt me to pose the following question to
> those of you who create stained glass items for the
> commercial market...
>
> ....how do you balance what you feel is art with what seems
> to sell - much of which is - IMHO incredibly tacky? (to
> qualify on my official list of tacky, objects might include
> anything with a butterfly, angel, hummingbird, stepping
> stone, suncatcher, clown, SGO Overlay, -- anything that
> looks like it belongs in a garage sale from the 70's, etc.)
> I'm sure we all have our own opinion about what qualifies as
> tacky, and I know I'm in the "weird minority" on these, as
> there must be a LOT of people out there willing to fork over
> real $$ for this....stuff. Boggles the mind.
>
> How do you do it? It CAN'T be just the issue of $$ - as
> I've visited some sites featuring the work of some VERY
> talented artists, who include large commissioned pieces that
> are simply grotesque - nothing but a menagerie of crap &
> colors thrown together that the client put on a list - which
> the artist accommodated and executed.
>
> Don't get me wrong! I'm not condemning anyone for creating
> junk to pay the bills - I TOTALLY understand the business
> aspect of it, and am not arrogant enough to think that I
> wouldn't do the same thing if offered enough $$ -- my
> question is literally - HOW do you force yourself to
> actually do it?
>
> I'm faced with a low level conflict of taste dilemma myself
> - only not for money - for obligation.... My dear mother
> has specifically requested that I make her a particular
> panel of a ship (a spanish galleon) panel for their house at
> the beach. Not only is the subject matter completely ugly,
> but the glass & colors she has requested is nauseating. I
> REALLY want to make her something beautiful - so many much
> nicer sea life subjects available, fish using some great
> ring mottle, etc, but THIS is going to look like, well - you
> know. I DREAD that she will tell someone who made it!
>
> How do you do it????!!!
>
> Argh...
> Angela
Angela & Brianne Major
I enjoyed seeing your "batik Lady" panel (grin). Very pretty and
original :)
Angela
Bert Weiss
show" The 66th annual League of New Hampshire Craftsman's summer show
at Mt Sunapee State Park. There is no schlock at this show. At least
not much. Every artisan is juried by high standards. There is plenty
of fine art and fine craft at the show. This show has much of the
highest quality work produced in the state.
Bert Weiss
Bert Weiss Glass Studio
http://www.customartglass.com
Painted Art Glass
Custom Productions
Architectural and Sculptural Cast Glass
Collaborative Art Glass
Lighting design
Bert Weiss
Emerald Artworks
hear lately is how the shows are suffering.
Hope you did well.
MH
magg...@my-deja.com
distressed I became. I consider myself well educated in the arts. It
seems many of you so called artists have forgotten something rather
elementary. It is up to you as the artist to create from your soul and
your spirit. It is your love of your medium that should be guiding
you. If you feel you are compromising yourself then you probably are.
That is your problem to solve, but to call the people who to buy
something that they consider beautiful and affordable, "uneducated" is
not only a sign of your lack of compassion for the less affluent, it is
also down right ignorant. It seems each period in the history of art
was considered to be "crap". Did the artists ever compromise
themselves? You bet they did, but they continued with their "crap"
which is now considered great art. Why don't we all just continue with
our passions and stop categorizing other people and their preferences,
then maybe some day we will be considered true artists.
MH
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
magg...@my-deja.com
isn't has been cleared up. So as I understand it, the amount of cash a
piece brings determines if it is art. (I guess that would mean that
only the wealthy will determine art is art....isn't there anything
those darn Republicans don't control?) Thank you ever so much for
clearing this up. hmmmmmm, now let me think about this, so all the
works of the "great" artists who made little or no cash with their art
aren't really artists. Yes, I think I have that right now. Is that
correct? I guess that would mean that original thought and techniques
have nothing to do with what is art and what is not art. Oh well, the
truth be known I always thought the Mona Lisa was ugly!! Since
technique and original thought have nothing to do with art, I guess
it's
ok to say it out loud now. I feel so much more enlightened now.
Emerald Artworks
Maggie, are so very distressed over what you have read. These artist or
what ever have their opinions that they should be able to express as well as
any art.
Seems also that this art is in the eye of the beholder theory was mulled
over several times.
I don't recall any suggestions indicating that if the dollars were not high
that the subject was then not art.
To discuss these topics helps all thought processes. No-one is right.
This topic will never ever have a clear answer.
The only clear answer I give is that the democrats are the ones destroying
with control............but then that is not this discussion boards subject.
Bottom line is everyone is entitled to think however they might. There is
rarely going to be agreement.
M. Hunt
magg...@my-deja.com
areas of distress. Which area wasn't clear or could it be "....y'all
(can't) absorb more than one phrase at a time"? Ms. Mary, if you
communicate the area which isn't clear to you, I'll do my best to
clarify it for you. I do have the same right to express my opinions as
anyone else on here, right?
MH
Emerald Artworks
Express.
I am not wanting to argue at all about any of the things or areas that bring
you distress.
Your opinions have the floor.
M.Hunt
Angela Major
I have a feeling that you may have possibly mis-understood
this thread - since I started it, let me clarify.
This has absolutely NOTHING to do with affluency -- in fact
the commissioned pieces I was referring to as "crap" were
some that someone obviously paid a fair sum of money to have
created. I'm talking about these were the glass equivalents
of Elvis paintings on black velvet :-/
OTOH, we can find things that [I personally] find to be
"tacky" - suncatchers of clown faces, etc. selling like
hotcakes. Again, this is not a matter of affordability -
one can create something beautiful for the same (or less)
money. Beauty is certainly not contingent upon the pricetag
of the materials or retail.
My question, rather was one of "when you're making something
for retail, commission, or gift, that YOU feel is "tacky,"
how do you make yourself 'just do it' ?" I was struggling
with a requested piece by my mother that I was gacking over
in terms of both pattern and materials which were
pre-selected. Mary had an EXCELLENT idea that I'm going to
use next time - have them tell you the CONCEPT that they
want, and you pre-select some options for patterns/glass
that are acceptable for them to choose from.
Love it!
Angela
Angela Major
appear, saying "NEEEEVER MIND!" as soon as she realizes what
the real topic was. Interesting to note that this thread
has prompted two politically charged spews (from BOTH SIDES)
due to the emotionally charged responses from
mis-understandings.
Must've be sumthin' in the water. I HATE [pre]election
years - makes people CRANKY.
:-/
Angela
Kristen
"Tacky" vs. "Art": please point me to some examples on the web. I
have my own thoughts, but I'd just like to know what others here mean
by it. I'm just considering getting into stained glass as a hobby,
and I'd like to know.
Thanks,
Kristen
--
"The Frogurt is also cursed."
miesle
Kristen <dran...@cannan.net> wrote in message
news:37bb7c40...@news.ne.mediaone.net...
> "Emerald Artworks" <emerald...@nfx.net> wrote:
>
> "Tacky" vs. "Art": please point me to some examples on the web. I
> have my own thoughts, but I'd just like to know what others here mean
> by it. I'm just considering getting into stained glass as a hobby,
> and I'd like to know.
Do what you like and don't worry about what anyone else thinks!
Vicki
(sometimes easier said than done!)
Emerald Artworks
the technical aspect for improving your technique or to see a tech. you may
want to learn.
Or to just plainly admire.
Just have fun. Don't worry over these age old controversies.
M. hunt
Kristen
>...Don't worry over these age old controversies.
I'm not worried. I have every intention of doing just what I like
when/if I get into this as a hobby. But after reading the preceeding
thread, it was made very clear what other people think is tacky, but
no one really explained what they consider art. It made me curious,
so I'd like to be pointed to some good examples of "art." Whether
it's your own projects or from someone else's site, I don't mind.
See ya,
Emerald Artworks
Kristen,
The best place I can send you is to church, to view the glorious windows
there. I don't know about the museums in your area. Here we have some
wonderful examples of glasswork at the museum. You could try there.
Anywhere you hit on the web, if you like the work study the piece. There
are wonderful glass workers throughout the internet.
I won't presume I am so great to give you my site. You will have to trip
onto the site on your own.
Enjoy learning all you can. This is a wonderful medium.
M.Hunt
Angela Major
This thread was not intended to take a vote on what is art
and what is tacky, but rather to pose the question as to how
one balances THEIR sense of art vs. what other people want -
EVEN WHEN they feel that what will sell/being requested of
them is "tacky."
My perception of what is beautiful, or worthy of being
considered "artistic" will be different than others. And
somewhere, SOMEONE is actually paying their hard earned
money for those paintings of Elvis on black velvet.
Some quick examples of what pleases and inspires me
*personally* would be the works of:
Steven Stelz - see Wisteria panel at:
http://www.uroboros.com/
Lynne Salcetti - http://www.asgla.com/1999/calendar99.html
LC Tiffany -
http://www.metmuseum.org/htmlfile/newexhib/Tiffany/LISTsgw.HTM
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/Choir/7564/page3.html
And a gentleman by the name of Peter ??? in the Netherlands,
who is doing some STUNNING repro Tiffany lamps at
http://www.tiffanylampstudio.com/
To each, our own! (Just don't ask me to do an Elvis portrait
;-)
Angela
WHATEVER.
Angela
Angela Major
to be a response to a completely different private post :-)
Had nothing to do with above (blush)
Ang
Michele Blank
I believe congratulations are in order , Angela, for the longest running
thread I've encountered that reaches so many conclusions(or lack thereof)
Angela & Brianne Major
for resolving this for ourselves from our friends' posts. I've
really learned a lot!
Angela
Andrew T
beveling machines, I think...is the clear leader.
Glaseyed
house) from "stepping stones" I start with a guardian dragon at the gate and
end with a castle at the porch. In between are unicorns, angels, mermaids,
etc. I draw my own designs but I have visited many museums and looked at many
many pictures, design books, coloring books, puzzles, etc. in my life time and
am sure that I have been influenced by all of them. Also the kids tell me what
they want on their individual stones. Sometimes they show my pictures and pick
colors and glass. I don't always agree with their choices but the stones are
for them. They think they are ART. I consider them a CRAFT. But it sounds
like many of the people in this thread would say they were CRAP.
Sorrey I extended an already too long thread.
Barb
Barb
Paul Stevenson
Michele Blank<AWORKOF...@WORLDNET.ATT.NET wrote in message
<7pcmj6$9d3$1...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>...>
magg...@my-deja.com
.......and in encouraging your grandchildren to create works of art
(with your help) you have helped then maintain one of our greatest
gifts, IMAGINATION!!!!
I remember when my daughter was in first grade, she came home with the
biggest frown on her face and one of her works of art in her hand. She
had obviously spent a great deal of time and energy creating a still
life with blue apples. Well, right in the middle of this work of art
was a picture of a frowning face and written in red pen right across
the work it said "There is no such thing as a blue apple!!!" Well, my
daughter and I sat down and started looking through my books and of
course it wasn't long before we found a Cezanne with a blue apple. We
took the photo to her teacher the next day. Although my daughter never
forgot that incident, it was more my hope that her teacher never did.
I'm sure your walk way is lovely, Barb and I just bet you have some
very happy and creative grandchldren.
Maggie
In article <19990817212631...@ng-cb1.aol.com>,
Ernie6642
Our customers/clients have the last word, we can only try to guide them in
their choice of design, colors, textures & types of glass. But they are the
ones paying for the work & have to live with it. The time it stays in place &
is admired will decide if it is tacky or not.
glass
maybe I'll be the lucky last post.. though I doubt it <grin>
IMHO something is a work of art if it was made using the creative process;
now I ain't no art teacher and can't give a 100% definition on this process
(well I could be I don't have the time) but it should include the following
non-exclusive list:
*Each work is an exploration (vs. a cookie cutter)
*The 'artist/craftman/artisan/whatever' (a whole 'nother topic) makes a
million tiny
decisions as the work progresses.
*The outcome is never 100% predictable.
Further: ART has NOTHING to do with the price of tea in China..... Van Gogh
traded his paintings for groceries (or was it wine?), OK? The Fauves
couldn't give their work away but today hang in the most famous museums in
the world..... soooooooo....
On the other hand..... I've seen famous (and rich) painters whose work is
NOT ART but what I like to call 'formula painting' ... they have developed a
process that creates paintings that people will buy and they just keep
following that same process.... this makes money but IS NOT ART... is could
be considered Craft though and the paintings are kinda pretty.....sort of
the Harlequin Romance novel of paintings.....
Now, not being ART doesn't make something TACKY either.. I choose not to
define tacky because I believe 'to each his own' and I definetly have my OWN
opinion but it's mine and you can't have it.
I predict that in years to come archeologists will dig up Elvis on Black
Canvas and herald it as the icon of our age!! <did you ever see Homer
Simpson shudder.. welllllllll>
End of the Ramble.....
--
Best,
Nancy (aka Glass)
===============================================================
Visit the Glass Orchids website:
http://www.cyberstreetfair.com/glassorch.htm
Wholesale and Retail brochures available upon request.
Ernie6642 wrote in message <19990818094839...@ng-fr1.aol.com>...
Diana Evans
On the same subject, my daughter was so proud of her
blue dog. She came home in tears. Mom went back up
to school and showed the teacher her dog - a "blue"
Great Dane (steel blue gray in color). I don't think
the teacher will forget that one!
Mike Savad
>
> Over the last 2 years I have been making a sidewalk for my grandkids(at their
> house) from "stepping stones" I start with a guardian dragon at the gate and
> end with a castle at the porch. In between are unicorns, angels, mermaids,
> etc. I draw my own designs but I have visited many museums and looked at many
> many pictures, design books, coloring books, puzzles, etc. in my life time and
> am sure that I have been influenced by all of them. Also the kids tell me what
> they want on their individual stones. Sometimes they show my pictures and pick
> colors and glass. I don't always agree with their choices but the stones are
> for them. They think they are ART. I consider them a CRAFT. But it sounds
> like many of the people in this thread would say they were CRAP.
> Sorrey I extended an already too long thread.
>
> Barb
> Barb
art is all in the eye of the beholder. what one person see's as art,
another see's as junk.
like picassos work. it's ugly. it is'nt art, a 2 year old can make
something better. but people still oooo and ahhh about it. or those huge
blank canvases with maybe a tiny dot in 1 corner, that's not art, that's
a drop cloth in a frame.
with stained glass, tacky sells because it's cheap to make. to make it
art, you need alot more time, more effort, fancy glass, designing etc.
in the end, it's more expensive.
a butterfly: tacky would be 5 pieces of glass stitched with came selling
for 8 bucks.
a butterfly #2: art would be using realistic glass. many more pieces,
maybe making it look like a real butterfly. or maybe using loud but
pretty colors. it may have 50 pieces in it when done, selling at
$50-$75.
people will go for the cheaper on, unless they really like the art
version. the more original and accurate version. but alot of people just
want a colorful knik-knack they can hang in their bathroom.
the tacky stuff really isn't art (in my eye). and it can't be called art
if it's someone else's design. and it does'nt even have to be art when
it's done.
the stones you made, don't have to be considered art at all. it the
original maker of it does'nt consider it then it isn't. kind of like a
new car, it's basically an artform in many ways, but not too many people
see it that way; same goes for alot of things, like architecture, fancy
pavers, brick walls, etc.
---Mike Savad
--
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
Mike Savad
>
> Barb,
> .......and in encouraging your grandchildren to create works of art
> (with your help) you have helped then maintain one of our greatest
> gifts, IMAGINATION!!!!
>
> I remember when my daughter was in first grade, she came home with the
> biggest frown on her face and one of her works of art in her hand. She
> had obviously spent a great deal of time and energy creating a still
> life with blue apples. Well, right in the middle of this work of art
> was a picture of a frowning face and written in red pen right across
> the work it said "There is no such thing as a blue apple!!!" Well, my
> daughter and I sat down and started looking through my books and of
> course it wasn't long before we found a Cezanne with a blue apple. We
> took the photo to her teacher the next day. Although my daughter never
> forgot that incident, it was more my hope that her teacher never did.
>
> I'm sure your walk way is lovely, Barb and I just bet you have some
> very happy and creative grandchldren.
>
> Maggie
>
> In article <19990817212631...@ng-cb1.aol.com>,
> > Over the last 2 years I have been making a sidewalk for my grandkids
> (at their
> > house) from "stepping stones" I start with a guardian dragon at the
> gate and
> > end with a castle at the porch. In between are unicorns, angels,
> mermaids,
> > etc. I draw my own designs but I have visited many museums and
> looked at many
> > many pictures, design books, coloring books, puzzles, etc. in my life
> time and
> > am sure that I have been influenced by all of them. Also the kids
> tell me what
> > they want on their individual stones. Sometimes they show my
> pictures and pick
> > colors and glass. I don't always agree with their choices but the
> stones are
> > for them. They think they are ART. I consider them a CRAFT. But it
> sounds
> > like many of the people in this thread would say they were CRAP.
> > Sorrey I extended an already too long thread.
> >
> > Barb
> > Barb
> >
>
> Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
i'd probably would have gone back to talk to this teacher for stifiling
a childs creativity. not sure how a teacher can grade an art project in
the first place. as long as they tried....
glass
cubism was about or the time in which it came into existance. The cubist
period was a time of true creativity and exploration... it defines ART
whether you like the visual outcome or not. The finished product is not the
most important thing in ART. It is the vision of the artist, the journey it
took to get there and what was learned along the way.
Reproducing reality and using loud fancy colors doesn't make something ART.
Seeing a butterfly in a unique way and representing that vision WOULD BE
ART.
I used to think that those big metal sculptures that look like someone
raided the dump and
piled the stuff up in a field were crap .... until I studied them and
understood what the artists were working toward... now I can appreciate the
endeavor even if I don't like the work visually.
[stepping off soapbox....]
--
Best,
Nancy (aka Glass)
===============================================================
Visit the Glass Orchids website:
http://www.cyberstreetfair.com/glassorch.htm
Wholesale and Retail brochures available upon request.
[==>edited for brevity]
.......
>art is all in the eye of the beholder. what one person see's as art,
>another see's as junk.
.......
>like picassos work. it's ugly. it is'nt art, a 2 year old can make
>something better. but people still oooo and ahhh about it. or those huge
>blank canvases with maybe a tiny dot in 1 corner, that's not art, that's
>a drop cloth in a frame.
........
>a butterfly #2: art would be using realistic glass. many more pieces,
>maybe making it look like a real butterfly. or maybe using loud but
>pretty colors. it may have 50 pieces in it when done, selling at
>$50-$75.
>---Mike Savad
Michele Blank
Michele'gotta have the last word"Blank
>I predict that in years to come archeologists will dig up Elvis on Black
>Canvas and herald it as the icon of our age!! <did you ever see Homer
>Simpson shudder.. welllllllll>
>
>End of the Ramble.....
>
>--
>Best,
>
>Nancy (aka Glass)
>
>===============================================================
>Visit the Glass Orchids website:
>http://www.cyberstreetfair.com/glassorch.htm
>Wholesale and Retail brochures available upon request.
>
Mike Savad
>
> I hate to jump down someone's thoat but you obviously have no idea what
> cubism was about or the time in which it came into existance. The cubist
> period was a time of true creativity and exploration... it defines ART
> whether you like the visual outcome or not. The finished product is not the
> most important thing in ART. It is the vision of the artist, the journey it
> took to get there and what was learned along the way.
>
> Reproducing reality and using loud fancy colors doesn't make something ART.
> Seeing a butterfly in a unique way and representing that vision WOULD BE
> ART.
>
> I used to think that those big metal sculptures that look like someone
> raided the dump and
> piled the stuff up in a field were crap .... until I studied them and
> understood what the artists were working toward... now I can appreciate the
> endeavor even if I don't like the work visually.
>
> [stepping off soapbox....]
> Best,
>
> Nancy (aka Glass)
>
> ===============================================================
> Visit the Glass Orchids website:
> http://www.cyberstreetfair.com/glassorch.htm
> Wholesale and Retail brochures available upon request.
>
> .......
> >art is all in the eye of the beholder. what one person see's as art,
> >another see's as junk.
> .......
> >like picassos work. it's ugly. it is'nt art, a 2 year old can make
> >something better. but people still oooo and ahhh about it. or those huge
> >blank canvases with maybe a tiny dot in 1 corner, that's not art, that's
> >a drop cloth in a frame.
> ........
> >a butterfly #2: art would be using realistic glass. many more pieces,
> >maybe making it look like a real butterfly. or maybe using loud but
> >pretty colors. it may have 50 pieces in it when done, selling at
> >$50-$75.
>
> >---Mike Savad
> >
> >--
> >Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
> >http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
> >2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
> >Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
> >too and A Look at Sky City
ahh you see someone who likes it. it pretty much proves my original
point. some people consider things as tacky, other's not. i think one
thing is ugly, another thinks it's beutiful. responding to the post siad
it nicely. there really isn't any "bad" stuff. i think there is, but
other people like some of that bad stuff.
Mike Savad
>
> Maybe the "shroud of Turin" is an old velvet painting.
> Michele'gotta have the last word"Blank
>
> >I predict that in years to come archeologists will dig up Elvis on Black
> >Canvas and herald it as the icon of our age!! <did you ever see Homer
> >Simpson shudder.. welllllllll>
> >
> >End of the Ramble.....
> >
> >Best,
> >
> >Nancy (aka Glass)
> >
> >===============================================================
> >Visit the Glass Orchids website:
> >http://www.cyberstreetfair.com/glassorch.htm
> >Wholesale and Retail brochures available upon request.
> >
> <19990818094839...@ng-fr1.aol.com>...
> >>>I'm just waiting to see who actually gets to have the last word...!
> >>
> >>Our customers/clients have the last word, we can only try to guide them in
> >>their choice of design, colors, textures & types of glass. But they are
> the
> >>ones paying for the work & have to live with it. The time it stays in
> place
> >&
> >>is admired will decide if it is tacky or not.
> >
> >
actually that's always been my theory. that the shourd never came where
people said it did. it may have been a cloth on somone's wall as a
memorial to the guy. the blood found on it, was left by an ancient
tourist (when they had it on display - i saw it on some show).
Bert Weiss
I totally agree with you.
Just because myself or anybody else doesn't like a style of art should
not have any bearing on a creator of art or craft. Each of us makes
what is in our minds eye. The market place either accepts the work and
the maker gets paid some money, or the market rejects it. None of this
is relevant to the artistic quality of the work. Remember Van Gogh
never sold a painting in his lifetime. His work was totally rejected in
the marketplace, but today most of us see him as one of the greatest
visionaries in art history.
My secret desire is to someday own a velvet Elvis. OOps I let it out.
Bert Weiss
Bert Weiss Glass Studio
http://www.customartglass.com
Painted Art Glass
Custom Productions
Architectural and Sculptural Cast Glass
Collaborative Art Glass
Lighting design
glass wrote:
>
> I hate to jump down someone's thoat but you obviously have no idea what
> cubism was about or the time in which it came into existance. The cubist
> period was a time of true creativity and exploration... it defines ART
> whether you like the visual outcome or not. The finished product is not the
> most important thing in ART. It is the vision of the artist, the journey it
> took to get there and what was learned along the way.
>
> Reproducing reality and using loud fancy colors doesn't make something ART.
> Seeing a butterfly in a unique way and representing that vision WOULD BE
> ART.
>
> I used to think that those big metal sculptures that look like someone
> raided the dump and
> piled the stuff up in a field were crap .... until I studied them and
> understood what the artists were working toward... now I can appreciate the
> endeavor even if I don't like the work visually.
>
> [stepping off soapbox....]
> --
> Best,
>
> Nancy (aka Glass)
>
> ===============================================================
> Visit the Glass Orchids website:
> http://www.cyberstreetfair.com/glassorch.htm
> Wholesale and Retail brochures available upon request.
>
> [==>edited for brevity]
> .......
> >art is all in the eye of the beholder. what one person see's as art,
> >another see's as junk.
> .......
> >like picassos work. it's ugly. it is'nt art, a 2 year old can make
> >something better. but people still oooo and ahhh about it. or those huge
> >blank canvases with maybe a tiny dot in 1 corner, that's not art, that's
> >a drop cloth in a frame.
> ........
> >a butterfly #2: art would be using realistic glass. many more pieces,
> >maybe making it look like a real butterfly. or maybe using loud but
> >pretty colors. it may have 50 pieces in it when done, selling at
> >$50-$75.
>
> >---Mike Savad
> >
> >--
> >Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
> >http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
> >2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
> >Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
> >too and A Look at Sky City
--
Nancy Tang
if you hurry..........
Nancy
[who secretly desires to own a stained glass butterfly suncatcher]
PS: Maybe we should have a TACKY SWAP!! Each participant can buy (or create
.. shudder....) the tackiest thing they can think of and then we can swap
them!!! I'll even put up a web page!! Anyone interested!!????
Bert Weiss wrote in message <37BC0F1D...@customartglass.com>...
Kelly
--
~Kelly~
Emasculator
> PS: Maybe we should have a TACKY SWAP!! Each participant can buy (or
create
> .. shudder....) the tackiest thing they can think of and then we can
swap
> them!!! I'll even put up a web page!! Anyone interested!!????
Nancy, count me in. I think this sounds hysterical. So many things to
choose from, and all of them make me shudder. Like cute Santa
Clauses, anything Holly Hobby (*gag!*), cutesy animals with vacuous
smiles and balloons or umbrellas, etc. I'd better stop now; the hair on
the back of my neck is starting to stand up and a chill just ran down my
spine.
Jim V
chill just ran down my spine.
<<<<<<<<
Beats hot flashes!
Brian
his finest hour. If that was his finest hour, he is definitely living
in a different time zone than I.
Brian
moments headquarters. When these drones come breezing in to town to see
it, the helium in the air gets so thick that you can cut it.
Emasculator wrote:
>
> > PS: Maybe we should have a TACKY SWAP!! Each participant can buy (or
> create
> > .. shudder....) the tackiest thing they can think of and then we can
> swap
> > them!!! I'll even put up a web page!! Anyone interested!!????
>
> Nancy, count me in. I think this sounds hysterical. So many things to
> choose from, and all of them make me shudder. Like cute Santa
> Clauses, anything Holly Hobby (*gag!*), cutesy animals with vacuous
> smiles and balloons or umbrellas, etc. I'd better stop now; the hair on
> the back of my neck is starting to stand up and a chill just ran down my
> spine.
>
glass
horrible
swap?!!
Emasculator wrote in message <7pkeft$ce9$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
Angela & Brianne Major
Hand me a tissue - I'm sobbing with laughter.....!
I can feel for ya, Brian - near my office is an "Official Beanie
Baby Headquarters" card shop. Once a month, you can *still* see
folks camping out at 7am for the 10am opening. Must be the same
group :)
Brian wrote:
>
> You think you got chills? I live about 20 miles away from the Precious
> moments headquarters. When these drones come breezing in to town to see
> it, the helium in the air gets so thick that you can cut it.
>
> Emasculator wrote:
> >
Kelly
Kelly
Brian
asked by my daughter to help her start a beany baby collection, so I
sprouted her a batch of nice Mung beans. She was not too happy, but she
got the point. She can own them, but I will not spend money
perpetuating an atrocity such as this.
The bean sprouts were not any more welcome as dinner, either. She
fished out all of the beef, ate her rice, and fed the vegetables to the
dog. When she did that, I warned her that the dog may not know the
difference between "beanie babies" and "baby beanies," and that she
should be more careful when she starts to encourage strange apetites
among the pets.
I have been considering what could be more tacky than anything else that
I could make, and I think that it would have to be a teletubby stepping
stone, complete with butterflies and cute little caterpillars, and a
lable from Burger king's "tubby custard" reproduced in glass. I would
have to make a sun catcher to go with it, a repro of the official
(AWFUL? OFFAL? How is it spelled?) tubby logo.
Guarantee you one thing, this would be sure to get a lot of foot traffic
around here.
Michele Blank
find us a judge and lets have a tacky contest. the judges credentials MUST
BE IMPECCABLE, no artistic nonsense, perhaps the head of the beany baby
store? I would love to attempt to make a tacky thing.Gum on shoe in a panel,
?? syrup on a waffle, foiled onto a plate?OOPS someone might actually call
that ART. Oh well, keep me in mind. Michele
Brian wrote in message <37BEEE79...@janics.com>...
Angela & Brianne Major
buwah-ha-ha!!!
Ang
Jim V
tacky.
Today I visited an artist's village and saw 47 seagulls perched on driftwood
"pilings".
I think I found my entry. Frustrating thing is that in the OTHER 30 odd
galleries was some very fine, legitimate stuff. The public is going to
think that it's all good....
Carlross
applies in both instances.
Just to stir things up a little, I figured i'd reiterate what I've said before
about the definitions of art, craft and crap.
art and craft both require a sense of asthetics but craft is traditionally more
utilitarian and art more reliant on those asthetics. the line is fine between
art and craft and I feel there is little need to categorize it further in that
regard; however I feel there is a great deal of craftsmanship involved in
mosaics especially those you walk on.
the line between craft and crap however is not vague. it is quite clear to me
that craft requires skill, creativity, and an eye for detail. when you get into
precut kits and patterns you don't create, I have to put them in the crap
category as they are you just carrying out someone else's creativity. create
for yourself in a skillful manner you are and artist\craftsman (whichever you
feel more comfortable with). Let someone else do the thinking for you and I
can't give you the credit of calling it art or craft.
I hope that clears things up,
Carl Ross
Lake Avenue Ceramic and Glass Studio
Phillips, WI
Mike Savad
you really can't define what's art and what's not art. the only main
lines you have too look at is: does it look proffesional or does it look
like a monkey did it? if it's the latter, then that's very sad.
especially if there selling things to the public. the public needs to be
educated as to what is good and what is not. otherwise people will buy
anything that has pretty colors in it, regardless of how ugly it truley
is.
Carlross
>you really can't define what's art and what's not art
Mike,
are you a closet crapsman?? you seem to defend people who carry out other
peoples' creativity(or at least not come out against it) Perhaps you are one of
the profiteers of the crap market?? do you sell the kits where two different
people could make identical peices??
just curious,
Carl
Wulfy Graphix
I try not to be self-rightous and keep an open mind. Its hard to know where
to draw the line. Who is anyone else to judge what gives me enjoyment? On
the other hand, I have secretly cringed at things other people have made. I
guess this is a topic that can never be totally resolved, because it deals
with peoples personal preferences. ::goes back to work on her stained glass
angel/clown with precious moment eyes:: =)
Bert Weiss
retail stained glass shop where there were several panels on display for
sale. The panels were constructed by the store owner. I looked at the
panels closely and they were well crafted and well designed to my
critical eye. Upon discussing the work with it's crafter, I discovered
that the patterns were all from books. What I realized was that the
patterns that were published were designed by designers who understood
the medium. I have seen many examples of "original" designed stained
glass that was to my eye poorly designed. Usually with very thin,
difficult to cut, and broken later pieces of glass.
I think the original designers have a better edge at really succeeding
at being artists. It was interesting to realize that craft, art, and
design (aesthetic and structural) are separate issues, and do not always
(or often) appear together.
Esther Heller
Bert Weiss wrote in message <37C53906...@customartglass.com>...
>I'll throw a little wrinkle in to this discussion. One day I entered a
>retail stained glass shop where there were several panels on display for
>sale. The panels were constructed by the store owner. I looked at the
>panels closely and they were well crafted and well designed to my
>critical eye. Upon discussing the work with it's crafter, I discovered
>that the patterns were all from books. What I realized was that the
>patterns that were published were designed by designers who understood
>the medium. I have seen many examples of "original" designed stained
>glass that was to my eye poorly designed. Usually with very thin,
>difficult to cut, and broken later pieces of glass.
>
>I think the original designers have a better edge at really succeeding
>at being artists. It was interesting to realize that craft, art, and
>design (aesthetic and structural) are separate issues, and do not always
>(or often) appear together.
>
This is _precisely_ where I get off the bus in the art-craft debate!
I am an onlooker here, but I have a few hobbies where I see myself as
a competent artisan, sewing/knitting and woodworking. It appears to
me that a lot of art school training, based on the comments in "artists'
statements" and such, pushes heavily on creativity, self expression,
pushing the envelope, pushing the "consumer" (whether s/he wants pushed
or not) and similar etc. My definition of beauty includes the older
considerations of fitness for use and durability, as well as accomplishing
your goals within constraints. Even a painting whose only function
is decorative fails that test if the pigments are fugitive or react
badly with each other.
I have no problem using a pattern to make a dress or a chair. In either
case I still choose the raw materials, well or poorly, and if poorly
have trouble with the finished product. I have seen a fair amount of
furniture that was decorative, sculptural, and creative, that I wouldn't
have in the house. A chair should be comfortable to sit in and not come
apart in 5 years. A table should fit the chairs and have solid legs.
Clothes should fit and still permit reasonable movement (reasonable
being differently defined for a swimsuit or a wedding gown). The
human race has several thousand years of accumulated knowlege on the
subject that I am not willing to give up for "creativity".
I as a customer would far rather buy a panel designed by somebody who
was thinking about longevity and repairability, even if that meant
the basic pattern came from a book, than something "original" that
won't survive 5 years in a climate that involves winter. As long
as there is no passing off the design as original by the person executing
it, and there are no resale copyright issues, no problem. Likewise
when executing someone else's design (like the church banner project I
am in the midst of), as the craftsperson who knows the fabric medium
and some of the scaling issues, I expect to influence the artist (painter)
making the designs. I don't have the gift she does of translating
abstract concepts to visual pictures, but I do understand that fabric
in large pieces doesn't work like paint on small panels. Both of us
have to give a little from our own tastes, _recognised as ultimately
taste_ for the best results.
Back to the original question of the person whose mom's taste was what
the maker thought of as "tacky": What you see as tacky is ultimately
a taste question, and not everyone shares the same tastes. Furthermore
most consumers buying decoration are not looking for a psychologist
to shake up their view of the world in any case (reacting to some US
artists' justification of tax supported "art" whose sole purpose seems
to be to offend most taxpayers). If you are a really good craftsperson,
consider it a challenge to make a piece that reflects your skill while
respecting a very different taste. It is a lot harder than making what
you personally like.
Esther eoh at kodak dot com
Mike Savad
i sell no kits. i don't make anything that can ever resemble drek. my
work is 100% original. and most of my stuff would be very difficult for
other's to duplicate.
art is a hard subject to define. is a popcicle stick plant stand art?
what is i got those same sticks glued in a pile, framed it and hung it
in a gallery, is it art then? ...as an example...
i don't sell alot of stuff. when i build something it's going to be
original. i don't even want my stuff to be called a tiffany - in any
way. when i build a lamp, i make my own pattern. i make my own form. i
make my own base. and if i could make my own glass i would do that too.
i want all my stuff to be completly original...
Brian
>
> > precut kits and patterns you don't create, I have to put them in the crap
> category as they are you just carrying out someone else's creativity.
> create
What you are saying here is that no matter how much effort I put into my
tiffany repro lamp, no matter how carefully and artfully I choose and
cut my glass, the best that I can hope to achieve is CRAP.
For that matter, anyone who uses another artist's handmade glass to
create his great works of art is riding on someone elses creativity, so
anyone who buys Uroboros, Youghiogheny or any of the
handrolled/ladled/blown glasses is just wasting all this art by turning
it into CRAP.
In your view, unless I am sole author of my project, I can barely hope
to create CRAFT, and I will probably just make CRAP.
In my opinion, art is like science. Art is a process, not a product.
If you create, if you put your own aesthetic values into your work, you
are participating in art.
If I ordered a custom grouse gun, there would have been engravers,
machinists, and dozens of experts involved it its creation. It still
would qualify as CRAP, because these guys were all working off of blue
prints.
By your definition, we cannot even call the Tiffany legacy art, because
he did next to none of his creation. He drew the stuff, designed the
glass, and had the staff make it. And certainly, anything like the
reproduction Jack in the Pulpit vases must be CRAP, because they were
Copied off of mass produced CRAP that was not even art in the first
place.
Your entire argument about art is flawed, because you think that art is
only in one person, and must be created by his hands alone. Like I
said, art is the process, not the signed piece. Your comments
insulted the work of hundreds of people who are great craftsmen, but
lacking in the ARTISTIC talents. Myself, I have a hard time creating
wonderful patterns, and I have used other's work at times. Sometimes I
will just borrow a flower or bird and modify it to work for me, then
draw the rest myself. So, since I cannot even make a decent rose, I am
obviously a CRAP artist, right?
I wish that you were just stirring up trouble, but I really don't think
so. This sounded like a from the heart snort of derision from a self
righteous prima donna who has no tolerance for those of us that are not
as great as he is.
Wulfy Graphix
pointing at others. Good things to think about. Using ones time to be
constructive whatever it is you choose to make...is still constructive.
::goes back to her stained glass angel/clown with elvis pompador and
precious moments eyes:: =)
barbara j cashman
speaking on behalf of many of us. Want to run for anything????
Barbara
Wolfebas
see what the maker(s) have added that's original and what ideas have come from
elsewhere. Often the more I see something the more I see references to other
objects.
It happens that I haven't used a pattern or copied another person's piece of
glass. But I'm full of memories of others work, images from life, paintings,
books, movies, etc. Is what I make original? Yes. Is it built onother
peoples images and objects? Yes. Is it art (good)? Up to the viewer. Is it
crap (bad)? Up to the viewer. Is it craft? Yes, though others may decide that
it's bad craft or good. Seems to me that making things - even for Picasso - is
mostly based on the work of others. This is the way most of us think and work.
John Bassett
John and Christina
db
Bert Weiss wrote in message <37C60597...@customartglass.com>...
>
>Collaborative projects bring the hard earned skills of two or more
>people together to make an object that neither could make alone. This
>results in the sum being greater than it's parts.
>
Right on the money. The greatest art is collaborative. And not just for its
scale, but also for its soul and energy and universality. The focus and love
of a team collaboration is what throughout history has made the art that's
worth remembering. The celebration of The Virgin in 200 years of European
cathedral building is the paradigm of collaborative art and the collective
spirit. The low point of art is when we demanded that art be a salable
painting by a New york gallery artist with a 'movement' that the critics and
journalists could feel self-satisfied about understanding, and that the
collectors could feel wealthy about owning. When I hear someone declare 'i
don't understand art' because they've been intimidated by 20th century
intellectual elitism, it pisses me off. The gallery artists today aren't
worth even considering, unless they've got some incredible technique or
sensitivity. The only innovative art of today is cinema, music video, and
print graphic design. What we glass people do is an anachronism, for the
most part (except when Bert and his friends are experimenting) . I don't
care for movies or any of the other current art forms, but I still regard
them as the source of innovation in our culture. I don't really believe
that 'The Phantom Menace' or some special effects-riddled commercial is in
the same class as Chartres Cathedral, but all the same they are huge
collaborative efforts that illustrate the aesthetics and values of our age,
much the same as a cathedral would have. A hundred years from now there will
be a newsgroup with a bunch of artisans who share tips on creating
cell-based animation in the ancient, but still charming, techniques of the
late twentieth century. Some of it will be wonderful, some of it will be
tacky crap. And there will be a few people who still fool around with
ancient techniques of glass art. And they'll still argue about whats tacky
and whats not.