Brewing with RO water
Bag O'Doughnuts
brews. When calculating salt additions (if any), is RO water close enough
to ion free to neglect the mineral content, or do you think it's worth the
trouble to get it analyzed? Also, according to the nomograph on
http://howtobrew.com ion free water should be the right pH for red beers, so
if that's what I'm aiming for is there any need to add salts? I think I
read somewhere that calcium and magnesium is needed in the mash, but the
malt already has plenty.
Ed
I think you can safely say that if your filter is OK it will be mineral-free
(not ion free as there will definitely be H3O+ and OH- ions). I believe RO
alone will only be suitable for Pilsen, but then even Pilsen water has some
minerals in it. The pH doesn't dictate everything in the mash. If the red
beer you want to brew happens to originally have pH 7, that does not mean
that it is just as low in minerals as RO water. Mineral composition is far
more important and if you want to copy a style, you should look at minerals
more than at water pH. Having said that, mash pH *is* important just as, to
my opinion (many here don't agree) fly sparge pH water.
Calcium and magnesium are not plentiful in the malt as you suggest.
Especially calcium is useful to add to RO water for both enzymes and yeast.
Magnesium too, but you should actually look at the qualities you want in
your beer to adjust the salts. Some tablesalt for sweetness and fullness,
some sulfate for bitterness, etc. Or just copy a waterprofile that you know
works well for a certain type of beer. This page
http://howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15-2.html
is quite revealing for how water can determine a beerstyle.
Make sure you have accurate weighing tools. Using the lower ends of scales
doesn't work well. If you don't have accurate low-weight scales, you can
always weigh a bigger amount, dissolve (homogenize if necessary) and dilute.
MDixon
Ed <edgard...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2ljja.34491$oe.99995@amstwist00...
>Having said that, mash pH *is* important just as, to
> my opinion (many here don't agree) fly sparge pH water.
Very carefully worded, and yes, I do not agree...;)
Cheers,
Mike
Bag O'Doughnuts
I'm thinking of aiming for 10ppm Mg and 60ppm Ca added to the RO water.
Does this sound about right? Promash tells me adding 0.5 g/gal Gypsum,
0.5g/gal Epsom, and 0.5g/gal CaCl2 will give 66.8ppm Ca, 13.1 Mg, 125.2ppm
SO4, and 63.7ppm Cl. It still shows pH=7.00, which I don't understand.
Nothing in the Promash calculator seems to lower pH, but "How to Brew" tells
me all three salts will lower pH.
I do have an accurate scale, supposedly +/- 0.1 g. I bought it from a
website site that doesn't seem to cater to homebrewers particularly, but
they did send me a free sample of rolling papers!
"Ed" <edgard...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2ljja.34491$oe.99995@amstwist00...
Ed
> Very carefully worded, and yes, I do not agree...;)
Have you tried it yet? You have the meter now so what's keeping you? I
promise I won't rub it in if you get a (even) better beer. ;)
Ed
Bag O'Doughnuts wrote
> Thanks for the response. My next attempt will be a Pilsner Urquell clone.
> I'm thinking of aiming for 10ppm Mg and 60ppm Ca added to the RO water.
> Does this sound about right? Promash tells me adding 0.5 g/gal Gypsum,
> 0.5g/gal Epsom, and 0.5g/gal CaCl2 will give 66.8ppm Ca, 13.1 Mg, 125.2ppm
> SO4, and 63.7ppm Cl. It still shows pH=7.00, which I don't understand.
> Nothing in the Promash calculator seems to lower pH, but "How to Brew"
tells
> me all three salts will lower pH.
A pilsner should be lower in minerals than that, and Promash should tell you
so. All values under 10. It's in the list.
Promash pH calculator is only impressed by Baking Soda and chalk. But forget
that water pH. It's water minerals and mash pH that count, and if your
minerals will be as low as in Pilsen water, adjusting pH for sparge is of no
importance either, as the grainbed will easily buffer it.
Bag O'Doughnuts
Pilsen water? Palmer lists some ranges for ions, e.g. 50-150ppm Ca, that's
why I was adding Gypsum.
I'm still trying to get my head around mash pH and salt effects. Maybe it's
not that critical, but I'm always trying to find the optimal solution -- I
think the engineering aspect of brewing is half the fun. BTW, I'm only
doing single infusion mashes so far, no acid rest, no added acids.
"Ed" <edgard...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:kBkja.34504$oe.100117@amstwist00...
MDixon
I measured the runoff a few times years ago, and that was good enough for
me. As far as better beer, I won 27 ribbons at competition last year, came
in third in NC as Brewer of the Year, and yes, I could make better beer, but
I'll be more than happy to put my beer up against anyones...;)
Cheers,
Mike
www.ipass.net/~mpdixon/homebrew.htm
Ed
> So should I just forget the "How to Brew" nomograph and try to get close
to
> Pilsen water? Palmer lists some ranges for ions, e.g. 50-150ppm Ca,
that's
> why I was adding Gypsum.
>
> I'm still trying to get my head around mash pH and salt effects. Maybe
it's
> not that critical, but I'm always trying to find the optimal solution -- I
> think the engineering aspect of brewing is half the fun. BTW, I'm only
> doing single infusion mashes so far, no acid rest, no added acids.
Perhaps you should provide a link to that nomograph, or perhaps not, because
if you read it as Pilsen having that much Ca, it can't be right. You can
safely follow the Promash water list as a guide, even if on the net you may
find slight differences for the mentioned waters.
The nitty gritty of pH effects of salts are not all that easy to grasp
without some chemistry. My residual knowledge isn't enough to be able to
tell you clearly, neither do I know the English terms. What you can remember
is, that if you're very *low* in minerals, then even a rather high pH will
be easily compensated by mash ingredients and therefore not worth a worry.
If you're high in -most importantly- bicarbonate ions, then the pH gets more
muscle so to speak. But for the Pilsen you can forget about it as long as
you keep the minerals as low as they should be for a Pilsen. Btw, if you
don't correct mash or sparge pH anyway, there is not much point in
concentrating on it so much.
Ed
> I measured the runoff a few times years ago, and that was good enough for
> me. As far as better beer, I won 27 ribbons at competition last year,
came
> in third in NC as Brewer of the Year, and yes, I could make better beer,
but
> I'll be more than happy to put my beer up against anyones...;)
Owww I was hoping you weren't gonna say anything like that. I'm sure you
make great beer. I was just suggesting a painless and easy experiment. No
reason to start about runoff again, we know the difference in view there.
Bag O'Doughnuts
http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15-1.html
That's where I got the 50-150ppm for Ca, not what's actually in Pilsen's
water, which he says is 10ppm.
The nomograph is here: http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15-3.html
It uses Ca and Mg concentrations to give a value for effective hardness,
then you draw a line through that value and the alkalinity (I'm assuming
zero) to give residual alkalinity. Above the that scale is a color strip
showing suggested beer color. I guess that takes into account the pH
lowering effect of darker malts. If you're trying to brew a different color
beer, you'd work backward by adding Ca. I'd be interested to know if you
think this is a useful chart.
What I'm trying to reconcile is that the nomograph implies that you need to
lower the mash pH a bit for very light color beers when starting with water
that has zero residual alkalinity. Palmer says that the brewers in Pilsen
used an acid rest to accomplish this. If an acid rest is what I need
instead of adding salts, I'll give it a try. I guess the question is do I
still need more Ca in the water?
I just got a pH meter and refractometer, so this next brew day will be a
real science experiment.
"Ed" <edgard...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Drlja.34519$oe.100144@amstwist00...
Ed
> Palmer gives recommended ranges for different ion concentrations here:
> http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15-1.html
>
> That's where I got the 50-150ppm for Ca, not what's actually in Pilsen's
> water, which he says is 10ppm.
>
> The nomograph is here: http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15-3.html
>
> It uses Ca and Mg concentrations to give a value for effective hardness,
> then you draw a line through that value and the alkalinity (I'm assuming
> zero) to give residual alkalinity. Above the that scale is a color strip
> showing suggested beer color. I guess that takes into account the pH
> lowering effect of darker malts. If you're trying to brew a different
color
> beer, you'd work backward by adding Ca. I'd be interested to know if you
> think this is a useful chart.
I'm sure it is, but I think you're taking it one step too many now. If
you're able to control your minerals, that's a good start. The chart is to
see if your water will suit a style, and you can be sure that if you make
Pilsen water, it will fit the Pilsen style.
> What I'm trying to reconcile is that the nomograph implies that you need
to
> lower the mash pH a bit for very light color beers when starting with
water
> that has zero residual alkalinity. Palmer says that the brewers in Pilsen
> used an acid rest to accomplish this. If an acid rest is what I need
> instead of adding salts, I'll give it a try. I guess the question is do I
> still need more Ca in the water?
Indeed you don't add salts to lower pH (theoretically you could add acid
salts but I think it's not done). I think an acid rest will not be necessary
and your mash pH will probably be low enough or close enough to get it
right. But if you simply imitate Pilsen water and you stick to a proven
recipe that includes an acid rest, then sure, why not. Just don't take your
pH meter too seriously that first time using it. You're only talking about a
few tenths of pH-value and for a first time user that's a bit much (or
actually a bit little) to deal with. You also need a quality meter that's
well-calibrated to measure mash effectively. Preferably ATC. I say that
first time, keep an eye on pH to get a feel of what's happening, but don't
act on it. You could be (over)correcting a misreading. Having said that an
acid rest is a subtle instrument, so risk is limited as long as you stick to
proven recipes.
Of course more Ca will lower the pH too (binding the phosphates), but then
it's not Pilsen water anymore. So no, for Pilsen you don't add extra Ca.
Bag O'Doughnuts
the Pilsen water, do a single infusion mash, take pH readings at each step
and see how it comes out.
"Ed" <edgard...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:r0nja.34547$oe.100174@amstwist00...
erl
<snip>
> Of course more Ca will lower the pH too (binding the phosphates), but then
> it's not Pilsen water anymore. So no, for Pilsen you don't add extra Ca.
>
add calcium, but is there any other reason not to do so? That is,
adding calcium would mean you have strayed from pilsen water,
but you could still make a damn fine pilsen beer this way, right?
MDixon
erl <nrt...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:b6nngu$t0n$1...@slb9.atl.mindspring.net...
Not really, not if the hardness of the water was too great. You could make
a decent lager, but it wouldn't have the softness of a PU or other Bohemian
Pils IMO...
Cheers,
Mike