I found this clone recipe and DO NOT have the time or equipment to run an ALL grain batch...so I need an extract conversion done for the following from
Brewer: Michael J. Uhrich
yield is 5 gallons POST-BOIL 6.5 gallons PRE-BOIL
Grain: 7 lb. American 2-row 1.5 lb. American Munich .5 lb. Belgian biscuit .75 lb. American crystal 20L 4 oz. American crystal 40L 4 oz. American crystal 120L
Yeast: white labs california ale yeast
ferment for 5 days at 65F. Rack to secondary and lower temperature to 50F and condition an additional 3 days.
Replace the seven pounds of two row with 6 pounds of light extract. Mix the Munich and biscuit grist together and divide into two one pound steeping bags. Put the other grains in another steeping bag. Hold the temperature of the steep at 150 for 45 minutes for conversion and proceed as usual.
> I found this clone recipe and DO NOT have the time or > equipment to run an ALL grain batch...so I need an extract > conversion done for the following from
> Brewer: Michael J. Uhrich
> yield is 5 gallons POST-BOIL > 6.5 gallons PRE-BOIL
> Grain: > 7 lb. American 2-row > 1.5 lb. American Munich > .5 lb. Belgian biscuit > .75 lb. American crystal 20L > 4 oz. American crystal 40L > 4 oz. American crystal 120L
> Yeast: white labs california ale yeast
> ferment for 5 days at 65F. Rack to secondary and lower temperature to > 50F and condition an additional 3 days.
> I found this clone recipe and DO NOT have the time or > equipment to run an ALL grain batch...so I need an extract > conversion done for the following from
> Brewer: Michael J. Uhrich
> yield is 5 gallons POST-BOIL > 6.5 gallons PRE-BOIL
> Grain: > 7 lb. American 2-row > 1.5 lb. American Munich > .5 lb. Belgian biscuit > .75 lb. American crystal 20L > 4 oz. American crystal 40L > 4 oz. American crystal 120L
> Yeast: white labs california ale yeast
> ferment for 5 days at 65F. Rack to secondary and lower temperature to > 50F and condition an additional 3 days.
1) Ok, then one answer would be to not make the brew....WHY?...because you cannot steep Munich malt. So you are at a crossroads. Either do a mini-mash for the Munich with some pale malt, or find an extract that contains some Munich. One that comes to mind is from Williams Brewing (get the whole link) http://www.williamsbrewing.com/AB1605000/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Product_... CATID=11 it is 50% Pils, 50% Munich...
In your recipe above, the 2 row was ~70% of the grist, and the Munich ~15%...
So mix this extract with another fresh LME to get the OG you desire (you didn't tell us what that was) and keep the proportions constant. So, if you needed 6 total pounds of LME (just an example), 15% of the fermentables should come from the Williams extract, or use 1.8 lb of the Williams extract since it is 50% Munich...
2) A second answer would be to not worry about the Munich and just use extract for the Pale and the Munich and make the brew with the rest of the malts steeped.
3) I think the best answer is it is just a Pale Ale, especially with that neutral yeast. Don't sweat it. Some Extra Light DME, some crystal malts, fou fou it up with the biscuit and let it ride...
> 1) Ok, then one answer would be to not make the brew....WHY?...because you > cannot steep Munich malt.
I do this all the time and get a nice conversion in a reasonable amount of time with no pale malt. Munich has all the enzymes it needs to convert itself and perhaps a bit more. -- Dan Listermann
> FrOg <f...@nunya.com> wrote in message > news:2mh28vcduc62v7b690q6hu8ioev4237n2v@4ax.com... > > I found this clone recipe and DO NOT have the time or > > equipment to run an ALL grain batch...so I need an extract > > conversion done for the following from
> > Grain: > > 7 lb. American 2-row > > 1.5 lb. American Munich > > .5 lb. Belgian biscuit > > .75 lb. American crystal 20L > > 4 oz. American crystal 40L > > 4 oz. American crystal 120L
> > Yeast: white labs california ale yeast
> > ferment for 5 days at 65F. Rack to secondary and lower temperature to > > 50F and condition an additional 3 days.
So you are at a crossroads. Either do a
> mini-mash for the Munich with some pale malt, or find an extract that > contains some Munich. One that comes to mind is from Williams Brewing (get > the whole link)
> In your recipe above, the 2 row was ~70% of the grist, and the Munich > ~15%...
> So mix this extract with another fresh LME to get the OG you desire (you > didn't tell us what that was) and keep the proportions constant. So, if you > needed 6 total pounds of LME (just an example), 15% of the fermentables > should come from the Williams extract, or use 1.8 lb of the Williams extract > since it is 50% Munich...
> 2) A second answer would be to not worry about the Munich and just use > extract for the Pale and the Munich and make the brew with the rest of the > malts steeped.
> 3) I think the best answer is it is just a Pale Ale, especially with that > neutral yeast. Don't sweat it. Some Extra Light DME, some crystal malts, > fou fou it up with the biscuit and let it ride...
> "MDixon" <mpdixon@_no_spam_ipass.net> wrote in message > news:7xWdnTQugI15ORyjXTWc3g@portbridge.com... > > 1) Ok, then one answer would be to not make the brew....WHY?...because you > > cannot steep Munich malt.
> I do this all the time and get a nice conversion in a reasonable amount of > time with no pale malt. Munich has all the enzymes it needs to convert > itself and perhaps a bit more.
Right, Munich will convert itself as will Wheat, Vienna, Pils, Pale, etc...but you don't steep them, you mash them...
<mpdixon@_no_spam_ipass.net> wrote in message > > news:7xWdnTQugI15ORyjXTWc3g@portbridge.com... > > > 1) Ok, then one answer would be to not make the brew....WHY?...because > you > > > cannot steep Munich malt.
> > I do this all the time and get a nice conversion in a reasonable amount of > > time with no pale malt. Munich has all the enzymes it needs to convert > > itself and perhaps a bit more. > Right, Munich will convert itself as will Wheat, Vienna, Pils, Pale, > etc...but you don't steep them, you mash them...
Technically that is correct, but it looks just like steeping except that you need to keep closer track of temperature. There is no reason an extract brewer can't steep/mash Munich et al. Our oatmeal stout steep/mashes oatmeal mixed with pale malt along with the dark malts. I don't think there is any problem making that recipe with extract instead of pale malt.
> > > I do this all the time and get a nice conversion in a reasonable amount > of > > > time with no pale malt. Munich has all the enzymes it needs to convert > > > itself and perhaps a bit more.
> > Right, Munich will convert itself as will Wheat, Vienna, Pils, Pale, > > etc...but you don't steep them, you mash them...
> Technically that is correct, but it looks just like steeping except that you > need to keep closer track of temperature. There is no reason an extract > brewer can't steep/mash Munich et al. Our oatmeal stout steep/mashes > oatmeal mixed with pale malt along with the dark malts. I don't think there > is any problem making that recipe with extract instead of pale malt.
So let me get this straight. You are suggesting anyone can take 2 to 3 gallons of water per lb of grain (normal steeping volumes) and can properly utilize base grains by just steeping for 45 min to an hour....????
On Wed, 26 Mar 2003 08:02:22 -0500, <d...@listermann.com> wrote: > Replace the seven pounds of two row with 6 pounds of light extract. Mix the > Munich and biscuit grist together and divide into two one pound steeping > bags. Put the other grains in another steeping bag. Hold the temperature > of the steep at 150 for 45 minutes for conversion and proceed as usual.
There's a difference between steeping at 150F and mashing at 150F, you need to be careful of the thickness of the mash. I would suspect that if you put 1 lbs of grains in 2-3 gallons of water at 150F (typical steeping procedure) that your conversion will suffer. You're essentially watering down the enzymes too much, and they will have a much harder time find starches to convert. If you want to try mashing the munich and biscuit like that, I would suggest at least doing so in 1 - 1.5 quarts per lbs of grain. Once you have let that rest at 150F for 45 minutes, you can add the rest of your water, bring the temp back up to ~150F and steep the remaining grains (crystal). At that point, you're basically doing a mini-mash, followed by a steep.
John.
-- *** John P. Kolesar *** *** s...@shagg.net --- http://www.shagg.net/ *** *** Valley Mead Brewery *** ***********************
> So let me get this straight. You are suggesting anyone can take 2 to 3 > gallons of water per lb of grain (normal steeping volumes) and can properly > utilize base grains by just steeping for 45 min to an hour....????
I do it all the time with more than five gallons. I may well do it this morning in a Vienna. It even gives a negative starch test. A number of our kits are based on this method. We have yet to have a single problem reported from our customers. -- Dan Listermann
> > > > I do this all the time and get a nice conversion in a reasonable > amount > > of > > > > time with no pale malt. Munich has all the enzymes it needs to > convert > > > > itself and perhaps a bit more.
> > > Right, Munich will convert itself as will Wheat, Vienna, Pils, Pale, > > > etc...but you don't steep them, you mash them...
> > Technically that is correct, but it looks just like steeping except that > you > > need to keep closer track of temperature. There is no reason an extract > > brewer can't steep/mash Munich et al. Our oatmeal stout steep/mashes > > oatmeal mixed with pale malt along with the dark malts. I don't think > there > > is any problem making that recipe with extract instead of pale malt.
> On Wed, 26 Mar 2003 08:02:22 -0500, <d...@listermann.com> wrote: > > Replace the seven pounds of two row with 6 pounds of light extract. Mix the > > Munich and biscuit grist together and divide into two one pound steeping > > bags. Put the other grains in another steeping bag. Hold the temperature > > of the steep at 150 for 45 minutes for conversion and proceed as usual.
> There's a difference between steeping at 150F and mashing at 150F, you > need to be careful of the thickness of the mash. I would suspect that > if you put 1 lbs of grains in 2-3 gallons of water at 150F (typical > steeping procedure) that your conversion will suffer. You're > essentially watering down the enzymes too much, and they will have a > much harder time find starches to convert.
You should remember that the grist is in a bag, not floating around in the pot. It seems to work. I even get a negative starch test.
> the munich and biscuit like that, I would suggest at least doing so in 1 > - 1.5 quarts per lbs of grain. Once you have let that rest at 150F for > 45 minutes, you can add the rest of your water, bring the temp back up > to ~150F and steep the remaining grains (crystal). At that point, > you're basically doing a mini-mash, followed by a steep.
> John.
> -- > *** John P. Kolesar *** > *** s...@shagg.net --- http://www.shagg.net/ *** > *** Valley Mead Brewery *** > ***********************
You tell 'em, Dan! This is home brew, and you can do what ever you want! This past weekend, I brewed a Stout, and instead of a big steep, I did more of a mash and batch sparge with my just the dark grains, and it worked fine, with no off or harsh flavors. Relax, etc........
"Dan Listermann" <d...@listermann.com> wrote in message <news:v83hidjnu7gt61@corp.supernews.com>... > "MDixon" <mpdixon@_no_spam_ipass.net> wrote in message > news:6BucncAcv5naXRyjXTWcoA@portbridge.com... > > So let me get this straight. You are suggesting anyone can take 2 to 3 > > gallons of water per lb of grain (normal steeping volumes) and can > properly > > utilize base grains by just steeping for 45 min to an hour....????
> I do it all the time with more than five gallons. I may well do it this > morning in a Vienna. It even gives a negative starch test. A number of our > kits are based on this method. We have yet to have a single problem > reported from our customers. > -- > Dan Listermann
> > > > > I do this all the time and get a nice conversion in a reasonable > amount > of > > > > > time with no pale malt. Munich has all the enzymes it needs to > convert > > > > > itself and perhaps a bit more.
> > > > Right, Munich will convert itself as will Wheat, Vienna, Pils, Pale, > > > > etc...but you don't steep them, you mash them...
> > > Technically that is correct, but it looks just like steeping except that > you > > > need to keep closer track of temperature. There is no reason an extract > > > brewer can't steep/mash Munich et al. Our oatmeal stout steep/mashes > > > oatmeal mixed with pale malt along with the dark malts. I don't think > there > > > is any problem making that recipe with extract instead of pale malt.
> You tell 'em, Dan! This is home brew, and you can do what ever you > want! This past weekend, I brewed a Stout, and instead of a big > steep, I did more of a mash and batch sparge with my just the dark > grains, and it worked fine, with no off or harsh flavors. Relax, > etc........
Tell 'em what exactly??? How steeping base will not lead to great conversion due to pH and dilution effects...
Sure, the brewer can do it anyway he pleases, but we've had long, boring, intricate discussions on mash pH lately, and if the pH of that water isn't in the correct range, a whole host of things can happen.
I'll just state my postition, you cannot and should not steep Munich malt...you should mash it...
>I'll just state my postition, you cannot and should not steep Munich >malt...you should mash it...
I am, in effect, mashing it. I am just using steeping methods to do it. If I get a negative starch test, it must be working. I have done this for all sorts of beers like Oatmeal stout, oktoberfest, bock, double bock and, this morning, Vienna. I intend to do it for Munich dunkel and helles and Martzen and whatever else seems to need pale malts. Don't take my word for it, try it yourself. I limit it to one pound per bag so as to not reduce efficiency.
> dumbbrewer <dumbbre...@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:8148b2e8.0303261210.7524b627@posting.google.com... > > You tell 'em, Dan! This is home brew, and you can do what ever you > > want! This past weekend, I brewed a Stout, and instead of a big > > steep, I did more of a mash and batch sparge with my just the dark > > grains, and it worked fine, with no off or harsh flavors. Relax, > > etc........
> Tell 'em what exactly??? How steeping base will not lead to great > conversion due to pH and dilution effects...
> Sure, the brewer can do it anyway he pleases, but we've had long, boring, > intricate discussions on mash pH lately, and if the pH of that water isn't > in the correct range, a whole host of things can happen.
> I'll just state my postition, you cannot and should not steep Munich > malt...you should mash it...
> >I'll just state my postition, you cannot and should not steep Munich > >malt...you should mash it...
> I am, in effect, mashing it. I am just using steeping methods to do it. If > I get a negative starch test, it must be working. I have done this for all > sorts of beers like Oatmeal stout, oktoberfest, bock, double bock and, this > morning, Vienna. I intend to do it for Munich dunkel and helles and Martzen > and whatever else seems to need pale malts. Don't take my word for it, try > it yourself. I limit it to one pound per bag so as to not reduce > efficiency.
I am tempted to fire up a pot of 2 or so gallons of water, and a lb of base grains sans bag for an experiment and see what the pH of the water becomes and the OG after the "steep". If the pH ain't right, it's not doing what it should, and if the sugars aren't coming out, then it really isn't worth the time. I might perform an iodine test as well, but I'm not a big believer in that...
My opinion (not fact) is that the pH will remain in an unsuitable range, the iodine test is not useful due to dilution and very little actually happens due to the dilution of the enzymes...if I find the time, I will give it a whirl and report back...
> I am tempted to fire up a pot of 2 or so gallons of water, and a lb of base > grains sans bag for an experiment and see what the pH of the water becomes > and the OG after the "steep". If the pH ain't right, it's not doing what it > should, and if the sugars aren't coming out, then it really isn't worth the > time. I might perform an iodine test as well, but I'm not a big believer in > that...
Do that and repeat with a bag. The bag may be the key.
> > >I'll just state my postition, you cannot and should not steep Munich > > >malt...you should mash it...
> > I am, in effect, mashing it. I am just using steeping methods to do it. > If > > I get a negative starch test, it must be working. I have done this for > all > > sorts of beers like Oatmeal stout, oktoberfest, bock, double bock and, > this > > morning, Vienna. I intend to do it for Munich dunkel and helles and > Martzen > > and whatever else seems to need pale malts. Don't take my word for it, > try > > it yourself. I limit it to one pound per bag so as to not reduce > > efficiency.
> My opinion (not fact) is that the pH will remain in an unsuitable range, the > iodine test is not useful due to dilution and very little actually happens > due to the dilution of the enzymes...if I find the time, I will give it a > whirl and report back...
> > I am tempted to fire up a pot of 2 or so gallons of water, and a lb of > base > > grains sans bag for an experiment and see what the pH of the water becomes > > and the OG after the "steep". If the pH ain't right, it's not doing what > it > > should, and if the sugars aren't coming out, then it really isn't worth > the > > time. I might perform an iodine test as well, but I'm not a big believer > in > > that...
> Do that and repeat with a bag. The bag may be the key.
Maybe I'll run concurrent experiments. Not sure if I have a bag large enough for a pound, but I can certainly check. If I do it, it will be Munich since that was the main discussion on this thread...
> > > I am tempted to fire up a pot of 2 or so gallons of water, and a lb of > > base > > > grains sans bag for an experiment and see what the pH of the water > becomes > > > and the OG after the "steep". If the pH ain't right, it's not doing > what > > it > > > should, and if the sugars aren't coming out, then it really isn't worth > > the > > > time. I might perform an iodine test as well, but I'm not a big > believer > > in > > > that...
> > Do that and repeat with a bag. The bag may be the key.
>> I am tempted to fire up a pot of 2 or so gallons of water, and a lb of > base >> grains sans bag for an experiment and see what the pH of the water becomes >> and the OG after the "steep". If the pH ain't right, it's not doing what > it >> should, and if the sugars aren't coming out, then it really isn't worth > the >> time. I might perform an iodine test as well, but I'm not a big believer > in >> that...
> Do that and repeat with a bag. The bag may be the key.
When you do the starch test, what are you using as your sample for the test and when in the process are you testing?
For example...
You may not see starch in the free liquid, but they could still be contained in the grains or in the bag. If you test negative, followed by a rinsing of the grains, you may end up with starch in the free liquid then.
Alternatively, if the starch remains held in the grains or within the bag you'll get a negative starch test on the free liquid. However, you also may not see converted sugars entering the free liquid. A starch test won't tell you if you're actually getting sugars from the grains either.
IOW, are you sure that you are getting an OG contribution from the grain when doing this meathod, and are you sure you're never seeing starch additions?
As you can see, I tend to agree with Mike's thinking on this. However, I wouldn't mind being proven wrong.
John.
-- *** John P. Kolesar *** *** s...@shagg.net --- http://www.shagg.net/ *** *** Valley Mead Brewery *** ***********************
I do the test on the free liquid. That is what makes the beer. When I put the bag in the kettle, the water gets very cloudy with starch. I agitate the bag a lot and try to get as much "stuff" out of it as possible through out the process. After a while the cloudiness is far less as I assume that the starches have converted to sugar. It is really not a big deal.
> >> I am tempted to fire up a pot of 2 or so gallons of water, and a lb of > > base > >> grains sans bag for an experiment and see what the pH of the water becomes > >> and the OG after the "steep". If the pH ain't right, it's not doing what > > it > >> should, and if the sugars aren't coming out, then it really isn't worth > > the > >> time. I might perform an iodine test as well, but I'm not a big believer > > in > >> that...
> > Do that and repeat with a bag. The bag may be the key.
> When you do the starch test, what are you using as your sample for the > test and when in the process are you testing?
> For example...
> You may not see starch in the free liquid, but they could still be contained > in the grains or in the bag. If you test negative, followed by a rinsing of > the grains, you may end up with starch in the free liquid then.
> Alternatively, if the starch remains held in the grains or within the bag > you'll get a negative starch test on the free liquid. However, you also may > not see converted sugars entering the free liquid. A starch test won't tell > you if you're actually getting sugars from the grains either.
> IOW, are you sure that you are getting an OG contribution from the grain > when doing this meathod, and are you sure you're never seeing starch additions?
> As you can see, I tend to agree with Mike's thinking on this. However, > I wouldn't mind being proven wrong.
> John.
> -- > *** John P. Kolesar *** > *** s...@shagg.net --- http://www.shagg.net/ *** > *** Valley Mead Brewery *** > ***********************
> You may not see starch in the free liquid, but they could still be contained > in the grains or in the bag. If you test negative, followed by a rinsing of > the grains, you may end up with starch in the free liquid then.
> Alternatively, if the starch remains held in the grains or within the bag > you'll get a negative starch test on the free liquid. However, you also may > not see converted sugars entering the free liquid. A starch test won't tell > you if you're actually getting sugars from the grains either.
> IOW, are you sure that you are getting an OG contribution from the grain > when doing this meathod, and are you sure you're never seeing starch additions?
My plan for testing is thus (let me know if you see problems):
1) 2 gallons of water (or close to it) in two pots (exact volume will be measured afterwards). 2) Measure pH 3) Heat to 150-155ºF. 4) In one add sack of grains, in other loose grains. 5) Regulate temp to 150-152ºF and hold at that temp for 45 min (per Dan's post) 6) Stir both, then strain grains from loose grain steep, and squeeze grains from bag steep. 7) Stir steeping liquid and perform Iodine test with tincture of iodine. 8) Cool samples to room temp and measure pH of each sample after the steep. 9) Measure volume of each pot 10) Measure OG of each pot
If 7 is ok, that really doesn't prove anything. If 8 is above pH 6, that proves that you cannot just steep and be within accepted values for conversion. Using 9 and 10, the gravity should then be checked for p/p/g and the efficiency of the steeping calculated. I am going to use the theoretical accepted value for German Munich of 37 p/p/g. Finally comes the subjective taste test, but I don't expect to get much from that...
On Wed, 26 Mar 2003 10:24:54 -0500, "Dan Listermann"
<d...@listermann.com> wrote: >I do it all the time with more than five gallons. I may well do it this >morning in a Vienna. It even gives a negative starch test. A number of our >kits are based on this method. We have yet to have a single problem >reported from our customers.
This is a "partial mash" method that works to a degree.
However, my own experience with using grain bags shows that the yield is horrible. Worse than no-sparge even, which is what this method tries to be. I think I was getting in the 15% efficiency range, I no-sparge now and get 37%-43%. I even used a 1.5 quart / lb ratio... I did have a problem maintaining temperature on a stovepot (that might have been half of it), which is why I eventually gave up. :)
I would stick with extracts for brewing a 2 lb high-kilned / 7 lb pale malt brew personally, but you can get away with the teabag-steep for adding say 1lb of oatmeal to a stout... sort of...
> John 'Shaggy' Kolesar <s...@shagg.net> wrote in message > news:35c2f42d666b1820b48e44d5b63d1563@news.teranews.com... > > You may not see starch in the free liquid, but they could still be > contained > > in the grains or in the bag. If you test negative, followed by a rinsing > of > > the grains, you may end up with starch in the free liquid then.
> > Alternatively, if the starch remains held in the grains or within the bag > > you'll get a negative starch test on the free liquid. However, you also > may > > not see converted sugars entering the free liquid. A starch test won't > tell > > you if you're actually getting sugars from the grains either.
> > IOW, are you sure that you are getting an OG contribution from the grain > > when doing this meathod, and are you sure you're never seeing starch > additions?
> My plan for testing is thus (let me know if you see problems):
> 1) 2 gallons of water (or close to it) in two pots (exact volume will be > measured afterwards). > 2) Measure pH > 3) Heat to 150-155ºF. > 4) In one add sack of grains, in other loose grains. > 5) Regulate temp to 150-152ºF and hold at that temp for 45 min (per Dan's > post) > 6) Stir both, then strain grains from loose grain steep, and squeeze grains > from bag steep. > 7) Stir steeping liquid and perform Iodine test with tincture of iodine. > 8) Cool samples to room temp and measure pH of each sample after the steep. > 9) Measure volume of each pot > 10) Measure OG of each pot
> If 7 is ok, that really doesn't prove anything. If 8 is above pH 6, that > proves that you cannot just steep and be within accepted values for > conversion. Using 9 and 10, the gravity should then be checked for p/p/g > and the efficiency of the steeping calculated. I am going to use the > theoretical accepted value for German Munich of 37 p/p/g. Finally comes the > subjective taste test, but I don't expect to get much from that...
Nobody debates that the bag method is inefficient. Typically I don't count on much beyond 15 or 20 PPPG. The grains are there for flavor mostly, any sugar is an extra. I rarely use more than two pounds, usually just a pound.
> On Wed, 26 Mar 2003 10:24:54 -0500, "Dan Listermann" > <d...@listermann.com> wrote: > >I do it all the time with more than five gallons. I may well do it this > >morning in a Vienna. It even gives a negative starch test. A number of our > >kits are based on this method. We have yet to have a single problem > >reported from our customers.
> This is a "partial mash" method that works to a degree.
> However, my own experience with using grain bags shows that the yield > is horrible. Worse than no-sparge even, which is what this method > tries to be. I think I was getting in the 15% efficiency range, I > no-sparge now and get 37%-43%. I even used a 1.5 quart / lb ratio... I > did have a problem maintaining temperature on a stovepot (that might > have been half of it), which is why I eventually gave up. :)
> I would stick with extracts for brewing a 2 lb high-kilned / 7 lb pale > malt brew personally, but you can get away with the teabag-steep for > adding say 1lb of oatmeal to a stout... sort of...
Moved some beers around tonight. I don't bother much with starch tests any more, but I thought I would take the opportunity to just see. The Vienna I made today with 1 pound of Vienna malt tested negative. I kegged the Dortmunder made with 1.75 pounds of Briess Bonlander - tested negative. The double bock with two pounds of Bonlander also tested negative. I don't see a problem. Might I suggest that the pH debate was about optimal levels, not levels that don't work.
> John 'Shaggy' Kolesar <s...@shagg.net> wrote in message > news:35c2f42d666b1820b48e44d5b63d1563@news.teranews.com... > > You may not see starch in the free liquid, but they could still be > contained > > in the grains or in the bag. If you test negative, followed by a rinsing > of > > the grains, you may end up with starch in the free liquid then.
> > Alternatively, if the starch remains held in the grains or within the bag > > you'll get a negative starch test on the free liquid. However, you also > may > > not see converted sugars entering the free liquid. A starch test won't > tell > > you if you're actually getting sugars from the grains either.
> > IOW, are you sure that you are getting an OG contribution from the grain > > when doing this meathod, and are you sure you're never seeing starch > additions?
> My plan for testing is thus (let me know if you see problems):
> 1) 2 gallons of water (or close to it) in two pots (exact volume will be > measured afterwards). > 2) Measure pH > 3) Heat to 150-155ºF. > 4) In one add sack of grains, in other loose grains. > 5) Regulate temp to 150-152ºF and hold at that temp for 45 min (per Dan's > post) > 6) Stir both, then strain grains from loose grain steep, and squeeze grains > from bag steep. > 7) Stir steeping liquid and perform Iodine test with tincture of iodine. > 8) Cool samples to room temp and measure pH of each sample after the steep. > 9) Measure volume of each pot > 10) Measure OG of each pot
> If 7 is ok, that really doesn't prove anything. If 8 is above pH 6, that > proves that you cannot just steep and be within accepted values for > conversion. Using 9 and 10, the gravity should then be checked for p/p/g > and the efficiency of the steeping calculated. I am going to use the > theoretical accepted value for German Munich of 37 p/p/g. Finally comes the > subjective taste test, but I don't expect to get much from that...
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