help with oxygen problem please
Dennis Dale
wrong when cooking the wort.
I am new to brewing. I have made 2 batches with similar results
that I am disappointed with. I get a taste in the beer that reminds me
of a 'plastic/styrofoam' taste. Others might have called it a cardboard
taste. I took a sample of my finished product to my local supplier/brewery,
and I was told that I am introducing oxygen into the wort while it is
hot, which is causing the funny taste.
I want to hear how others treat their wort while it is hot.
Here's what I do: (basic recipe, nothing special, single ferment)
Put my grains in the water while it is heating. Remove right before boiling.
Remove from heat, pour in liquid malt extract. Stir to dissolve.
Return to heat and get up to boil.
Add bittering hops, lower heat to prevent boilover, stir until it calms down,
return to heat. Boil for ~50 minutes at a high simmer/low rolling boil.
Stir about every minute. Stainless steel spoon. Add other hops and finish
the hour of boil. Remove from heat and put in a sink of ice water.
Gently stir ice water around pot, gently stir wort to cool as rapidly as
possible. This is NOT vigorous stirring. I use my hand to stir the ice bath.
I use the same stirring spoon as before to stir the wort. No contamination.
When cool (<100F), filter through strainer into carboy that has about 1-2
gallons of water in it, splashing, shaking etc. to introduce air that has been
boiled out, for the yeast to use.
Add additional water to carboy to reach 5 gallons. Pitch yeast.
Both batches produced LOTS of foam blowoff for about 2 days
during ferment.
Settled down nicely a few days later. OGs and FGs were fine.
Since the off taste is already introduced, I won't go into the bottling details.
Notes:
Beer always had the off taste from the time it was put into the carboy
(when taking the OG reading).
I didn't know if this was normal at the time. It wasn't.
While boiling, all of the oxygen is being boiled out, right?
How can I be introducing more oxygen during the boil by stirring?
During the cooling process, I stir the cooling wort gently, slowly,
just to get hot wort in contact with the side of the pot.
I use a 2 gallon brew pot. I add 3 gallons of water to fill the carboy.
I am afraid to start my next batch without clearly learning what I am doing
wrong. Books are of little help. My local brew expert offered the following:
1. I am introducing too much oxygen in the hot wort. (OK, how exactly?)
2. I should cool the wort to about 80F before putting into the carboy.
3. My other steps and sanitization are fine. No off odors, infections, etc.
4. He made a comment on the beer's color. It was slightly dark, but
not bad, not burnt. It was also very clear. To lighten my beer's color,
he said to get a bigger brew pot. The minimal pot that I am using is
concentrating the color.
Please help. Offer details.
I plan to eventually buy a 4-5 gal. SS brew pot and get an immersion wort
cooler, but people have made many successful batches without needing either
of these.
- Dennis
Dan Listermann
rinsing enough. I see nothing in your process that would cause oxidation.
--
Dan Listermann
Check out our E-tail site at http://www.listermann.com
Take a look at the anti-telemarketer forum. It is my new hobby!
"Dennis Dale" <Denni...@tellabs.com> wrote in message
news:3C4C4221...@tellabs.com...
Mike Uchima
Don't leave your steeping grains in until "right before boiling". Hold
them at 150-160F for about 20 minutes, remove them, then bring the water
to a boil.
Are you using tap water, and (if so) does your municipal water utility
add chlorine? Plastic/styrofoam really sounds like chlorophenols, which
are produced when chlorine from your tap water reacts with other
substances in the wort. Chlorophenols have a very low taste threshold,
and can impart off flavors when present in even minuscule quantities.
You can remove chlorine with a faucet mounted or under-sink charcoal
filter, or by pre-boiling the water. DO NOT add any other brewing
ingredients to your water, until you are certain it is free of chlorine!
--
== Mike Uchima == uch...@pobox.com == http://www.pobox.com/~uchima ==
bregent
Other than sanitizing with it, you may have high levels in your water.
Also, I would suggest steeping your grains at 150-170. Don't leave them in until
almost boiling because that is too hot.
In article <3C4C4221...@tellabs.com>, Dennis says...
Dennis Dale
chlorine. I do not use softened water. I take it straight from the
well and then run it through an activated charcoal filter (Brita).
The water tastes absolutely fine. It has lower iron, calcium, etc.
than most people who have a private well.
I don't think water is the problem, although I won't rule it out.
BTW, my FLHBS uses straight city water in their brews. We live in
the same town, so the source of the water is pretty close to each other,
geographically speaking.
My FLHBS, says it's oxygen being introduced in the hot wort.
He was positive in his diagnosis and says to drink the beer ASAP,
since it will only get worse with time. I have the 1st batch in
bottles now for ~2 weeks. He sampled a bottle at 1 week.
I just can't nail down when I am introducing oxygen this in the process.
I think that I described my technique pretty well. I did the exact
same thing twice with the same result, so something's wrong.
1st batch is a pale ale and the 2nd is a weiss.
I have all stainless spoons, pots. Besides that, all of the equipment
was bought from FLHBS, so I know that it's not an equipment
problem.
Will taking the grains out earlier make a difference in the off taste
that I describe?
Also, the taste could be the 'wet cardboard' type. I don't go around
tasting wet cardboard, but it's hard to discern some tastes in the
warm, flat 'beer'. My palate isn't all that 'educated' yet.
Anybody got any other ideas? One book says to keep cooling the
wort to 80F or it will pick up the oxygen when you don't want it. Like
I said, I only cooled it down to 100F. It took about 15 minutes.
Any more ideas?
TIA - Dennis
Dennis Dale
no rinsing. I mix it per the instructions. (1 Tlbs/gal if I recall).
I therefore do not rinse anything after sanitizing. I may change to
the iodine based sanitizers.
Any more ideas? These are great so far.
TIA - Dennis
Mike Uchima
there really does not seem to be anything in your procedures which could
be resulting in excessive oxidation of the hot wort.
Steeping the grains too hot will leach tannins from the grain husks,
which will impart a dry, puckering astringency (think strong tea), which
I *suppose* could be interpreted as "wet cardboard"... but it is not the
same effect as oxidation. IIRC, the leaching of tannins is greatly
increased if your water is alkaline... do you happen to know what the pH
of your water is? If it is really high, bringing it down (e.g. with a
little food grade lactic or phosphoric acid) might help.
Did both batches use the same brand of extract? Maybe it is a quality
of ingredients issue.
bregent
>
>Anybody got any other ideas? One book says to keep cooling the
>wort to 80F or it will pick up the oxygen when you don't want it. Like
>I said, I only cooled it down to 100F. It took about 15 minutes.
>Any more ideas?
I wouldn't focus on hot side aeration too much, it simply doesn't sound like
your problem. You can splash hot wort around pretty good and not have any short
term side effects although it may affect long term shelf life. If you've even
seen a grant in operation at a brewery, it's obvious that effects of HSA is a
bit overblown.
If it is truly an oxidation problem, I would look more closely into your post
fermentation transfering and bottling techniques. I'd also try to get a second
opinion of the defect; you LHBS may just be wrong about this.
The Newt King
Your hot side aeration probably comes from the stirring of the hot wort
and from dumping the still relatively hot wort (100f) through the strainer.
Just stir your hot wort a couple of times while it is cooling
to break up temp gradients.
Better yet, buy 15 or 25 feet of soft copper tubing, gently bend it in a
coil around something about two thirds the size of your brew kettle, hook
hook pvc tubing and hose fittings or tap fittings and and use your new wort chiller.
Try to cool your wort to 70F-75f or less before straining.
At that point you want all the aeration possible. for your yeast.
-The Newt King
Dennis Dale
next batch, but I now have 4 cases of slightly off tasting beer to
finish first ;)
I don't have a chlorine problem, so I won't correct that.
I doubt that I have a hot wort oxygen problem, based on everyone's
comments.
I doubt that I have a bad batch of ingredients. My ingredients came
from kits sold at FLHBS, and included different kinds of malt, hops, etc.
The procedures in both kits were nearly identical. Without changing
too many variables, I will do the following differently next time:
1. I will take a pH reading and correct the water if necessary.
2. I will not 'cook' the grains to such a high temperature next time.
3. Just be more aware of not introducing oxygen in the hot wort
during the cooling process, and cool wort to <80F.
Since the taste is already present when taking the OG reading, I doubt
that I have a bottling procedure problem (although FLHBS had some
suggestions for me as well on how not to introduce more oxygen when
bottling).
I will be on the lookout for another place/person to get a 2nd opinion
taste test on what I am doing wrong. I live in the far western suburbs
of Chicago, so finding someone shouldn't be too hard. Suggestions?
Thanks for all of your help (so far) - Dennis
I will report back after I make the next batch in a few weeks.
Mike Uchima
How far west are you? The monthly meeting of the Urban Knaves of Grain
homebrew club is the day after tomorrow (Thursday evening), in
Winfield. (We usually meet on the last Thursday of the month, but we
just found out that we can't have our meeting room on the normal day
this month.)
We've typically got several BJCP-certified judges at each meeting, I'm
sure a couple of 'em would be glad to attempt a diagnosis for you.
Who's your LHBS? Brewers Coop? They tend to have more of a clue over
there than many other LHBSes, since they also operate a microbrewery...
if they say it tastes oxidized, I'd be inclined to believe 'em.
E-mail me privately if you're interested in attending the meeting, and
need directions.
--
== Mike Uchima == uch...@pobox.com == http://www.pobox.com/~uchima ==
Bill Riel
: If it is truly an oxidation problem, I would look more closely into your post
: fermentation transfering and bottling techniques.
This is my thought as well. Cold side aeration is far more likely to
produce 'wet cardboard' than HSA.
--
Bill
Ed Lilliott
I would be cautious about stirring the hot wort. I cool my wort with an ice
bath also, however I pay a lot of attention to keeping the lid on the kettle
untilled cooled.
Regards
Ed Lilliott
"Dennis Dale" <Denni...@tellabs.com> wrote in message
news:3C4C4221...@tellabs.com...