OT: Scott Don't Go
starlia
Please don't leave the newsgroup. I enjoy your posts and would hate to see
you go. Don't give up on us just because you had a few posts that went bad.
It happens to us all.
Starlia
--
Starlia Klopman
www.klopmanstudios.com
Marisa2
Yeah, it has been great to have you here.
Take people's comments for what they are worth... not nothing, but maybe
a slap on the wrist. People here can be grouchy sometimes. Ultimately
you got the information you wanted and noone was really mad at you at
all, they gave you some more places to look (I sure wouldn't have known
where to look either in your place).
Noone said they wanted you to leave at all. After you've been here for
a while you'll notice that every once and a while there are temporary
bad moods, that's all.
Please stay.
marisa2
Su/Cutworks
> Please don't leave the newsgroup. I enjoy your posts and would hate to
see
> you go. Don't give up on us just because you had a few posts that went
bad.
> It happens to us all.
OMTP
I almost left the newsgroup within a week of starting here for much the same
reason, I asked something and got a few sarky answers. They sort of
disappear in the overall collection of information that's available here,
though.
We don't have to like each other, nor do we have to accept what everyone
says. If you were with a bunch of people you know at a bar or restaurant,
you'd get the same mix. Some you'd like, some you'd just sort of ignore,
and there's always one person who rubs you the wrong way. That's how it is
in a group, not everyone is the same, which I'm extremely grateful for. I'm
sure I rub people the wrong way, I know there are people who get my back up
but there are also people who melt my heart and make my life a LOT richer
than if I weren't here.
-Su
~Candace~
topic messages as well as joined in heartily where off topic threads were
concerned. You've supported 4Rebekah Auctions. You've made me smile, and
laugh, and admire your coolness under what I saw as unwarranted fire the
other day.
I've been through at least two large incidents that could have prompted me
to leave the group. After thinking about it for all of ten seconds, I
decided the rewards far outweighed the negatives here. I'm hoping like mad
that you'll reach that same conclusion.
((Scott))
--
~Candace~
Orphan Beads ~low cost and bartering for the financially challenged beader~
http://snipurl.com/6s4t
Princess Auctions ~please see for most current updates and auction
information~
http://snipurl.com/8s8o
Diana Curtis
Please stay.
Diana
--
Vote this November (U.S.A.)
"~Candace~" <canda...@sbcglobal.nettednecklace> wrote in message
news:94Xfd.12592$Al3....@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com...
Marisa2
>
> OMTP
>
> I almost left the newsgroup within a week of starting here for much the same
> reason, I asked something and got a few sarky answers. They sort of
> disappear in the overall collection of information that's available here,
> though.
>
> We don't have to like each other, nor do we have to accept what everyone
> says. If you were with a bunch of people you know at a bar or restaurant,
> you'd get the same mix. Some you'd like, some you'd just sort of ignore,
> and there's always one person who rubs you the wrong way. That's how it is
> in a group, not everyone is the same, which I'm extremely grateful for. I'm
> sure I rub people the wrong way, I know there are people who get my back up
> but there are also people who melt my heart and make my life a LOT richer
> than if I weren't here.
>
> -Su
>
>
OMTP2...
I almost left once.
Now I just write back to who I want to and if some people choose to
ignore me or whatever I don't care. If I annoy them enough they can
killfile me. In the mean time I really enjoy the discussions I have
with everyone who does talk to me.
marisa2
Christina Peterson
Scott, $$$ often seems to be a hot button topic. I remember asking about
the cost of the beads in a bracelet up for sale on eBay. I was ignored, but
was lucky not to get a snarky answer. I really simply wanted to know. I
wasn't making judgments, thinking someone was charging too much, negating
the value of the skill or insight that goes into making something, etc. I
just was looking for a clue.
I expect "dumb questions" and expect people to get their feet in their
mouths. To me that's normal.
And I'm grateful to Kalera for her response regarding the cost of making a
bead. Probably $.50 to 2.00 in glass for a smallish bead, with all sorts of
extra considerations in time, skill and expense. I had come to a similar
conclusion, considering that many beadmakers will sell spacers for between
$.50 and 1.00, and that within a set you can often get 9 accent beads for
$30. I kind of guessed that was what you meant by "a bead".
If you felt stupid, ignored, different from everyone else, etc, you're in
good company. We all feel that way occasionally. I really hope you don't
go away. I've really enjoyed your "voice" and the fact that you ask
different questions, even phrase your questions differently. We're mostly
fairly close knit here, and we really need diversity. Please don't go away.
Tina
"starlia" <sta...@klopmanstudios.com> wrote in message
news:10o0ajb...@corp.supernews.com...
Dr. Sooz
>It happens to us all.
Good gawd, YEAH. I have been flamed til all my hair singed off.
~~
Sooz
Yummy yummy apricot jam! (It's so much better than green eggs and ham)
Su/Cutworks
> Good gawd, YEAH. I have been flamed til all my hair singed off.
And you still look maaahhhhvelous, dahlink!
-Su
LC aka Fiddy
trap that so often occurs. I intensely dislike when folks say that only to
stick around for the "please don't go" messages.
Stay, and remember that your hormones will eventually be in cycle with all the
women here too!
The Blessed Fiddy, Patroness Saint of the Disorganized
LC in Sunny So Cal
Personality Development Specialist (Full-Time Mom!)
Peggy
don't read every message in every thread, but I have been haphazardly
following your thread about the cost to make a bead. It's a question I
could easily have asked myself...just out of curiosity and the desire to
learn.
Please stay, Scott!!
~Candace~
can't calculate that because of the variables in materials, equipment, time
and effort." had been given at the start, rather than everyone saying the
same things repeatedly.
--
~Candace~
Orphan Beads ~low cost and bartering for the financially challenged beader~
http://snipurl.com/6s4t
Princess Auctions ~please see for most current updates and auction
information~
http://snipurl.com/8s8o
"Peggy" <nospa...@beadland.net> wrote in message
news:clqrt...@enews4.newsguy.com...
Kandice Seeber
opinion and is not meant to
hurt anyone or tick anyone off. I just have a few things I would like to
say.
First, yes there were a couple of short, somewhat snarky answers to Scott's
question. But nothing too harsh - really.
There were several answers that basically did say that Scott needed to be
more specific and provide more information
in order to get an answer that might be useful to him. I think that people
repeated themselves mostly because they either hadn't read the
all the responses or they feel Scott hadn't responded to the information
they were repeating.
Scott's first response was this:
"I am sorry, maybe I didn't ask the question right. I just wanted to find
out
the yield of a rod of glass and maybe fuel cost average.
I know if I stop to scratch my ass the cost of a bead will got up. I know
there are lots of variables, I was just looking for a yield.".
We kept trying to tell him that the question was near impossible to anwer
without more information about what he
was looking for. He never gave that information. The above is still really
vague and shows that he has not done any research.
Then, after I and several others actually took the time to do some legwork
for him, he posts this:
"Thank you Kandice for the information. I have been researching for a few
weeks now and could not find the information I was looking for.
My only recourse was to ask someone who might know. I don't think I fit in
on Newsgroups. It was nice meeting all of you and thank you, to each and
everyone of you for your time and help."
It honestly felt like I was talking to a brick wall. He did thank people for
information, but he never did give us more specifics or clarify his
questions.
Why are we begging for Scott to come back? It's not like we did anything
wrong. The implication that some of the responses were just because people
were grouchy and in a bad mood rubs me the wrong way. In some cases, with
other posts, that may be true. But in this case, Scott was asking an
incredibly vague and broad question which needed clarification. When we
asked for clarification, he gave none. And then, when he saw that people
were becoming a little more assertive with him, he decided to leave, saying
he "doesn't fit in".
I personally was in a fine mood when I typed my response - I just don't
understand it when people don't even try to do the least bit of legwork
before they ask something that general. Scott said he'd been researching,
but I am not sure I believe that. If anyone researches beadmaking for a few
weeks, they can at least narrow down the question or provide more
information for us to answer. That person would know enough about glass
beadmaking to get a general idea of what to ask. Heck, you can research
suppliers for one day and get a general idea of what to ask.
The whole idea of people saying they are leaving and then the group begging
them to come back just bothers me. People should feel free to come and go
as they please. Any thoughts?
I don't want to sound like I hate answering questions here on RCB. I don't.
I have happily provided lots and lots of information here, on other forums
and on my website. However, if someone asks a completely broad question, I
expect them to listen when we say that we need more information to answer
the question. And if I happen to get snarky, I usually have good reasons
for it. If I am in a bad mood, I will say so.
Right now, yeah, I'm in a bad mood. LOL
--
Kandice Seeber
Air & Earth Designs
http://www.lampwork.net
~Candace~
>
>
> --
> Kandice Seeber
> Air & Earth Designs
> http://www.lampwork.net
>
(((Kandice))) bad mood or not, I still love you.
Not being someone who works with hot glass, I'm backing out of this
discussion.
However, I will say that my inital post regarding Scott's leaving was more
of a ....I don't agree with the reason for it. But to each their own.
Kandice Seeber
--
Kandice Seeber
Air & Earth Designs
http://www.lampwork.net
> However, I will say that my inital post regarding Scott's leaving was more
Kalera Stratton
-Kalera
http://www.beadwife.com
http://www.snipurl.com/kebay
Kalera Stratton
Dr. Sooz
>
>;)
No....the current length of my 'do is due to Merc dragging me down the sidewalk
til it all wore off.
Kalera Stratton
newsgroup, and B: I want to see him through the "aha!" he will have when
it all comes together and he understands that there is no way, in
lampworking, to calculate profits based on materials costs. (Most people
start out thinking it works that way, because it does in many
industries. In lampwork, it costs more to SELL your beads than it does
to make them.)
Kandice Seeber
well as money to market the beads. :)
Cheryl
Why are we begging for Scott to come back? >
ditto
he was just someone fishing for information....
and unable to even be specific enough for us to give him an answer..
how many beads can one make from a "rod" of glass?
How long is a "rod" in his estimation????
18 inches , 36 inches, 48 inches???
even if just 18 inches -- it really depends on the size of the BEAD doesn't
it???
that's what I was so amazed he could not grasp....
I guess I should have given the appropriately vague answer....
answer:
if you are "Mothwoman" - a whole lot!.... if you are me -- a few....
LOL
Cheryl
DRAGON BEADS
Flameworked beads and glass
http://www.dragonbeads.com/
Christina Peterson
the hell out of anything. And having a surfeit of facts is very far from
having an answer. What does glass cost? I don't know, but I could make a
guess at cost (not value) based on the cost of "beginner beads". No need to
mystify it. I think he was just wondering what it would cost him to make
some beads.
And personally, I would like to have Scott stick around to keep our group
more rounded.
I also love it when people ask questions awkwardly. It makes me feel more
normal!
Tina
"~Candace~" <canda...@sbcglobal.nettednecklace> wrote in message
news:PR8gd.5208$bP2....@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
Christina Peterson
sell it.
And this is why when beadmakers and beaders are asked about "wholesale",
they need to understand that for the most part, wholesale is what they
currently get for their work. Retail is what the LBS would sell it at. And
don't forget, just because we buy things at or near wholesale, that's not
the price most people pay, and it's not the price some beader wandering into
a beadstore has necessarily earned. The LBS price really IS the real price,
not an inflated price.
This is why when you put $60 into a nice piece that is NOT labour intensive
(eg, as beadweaving would be) and you have paid approximately wholesale for
the parts, and your work and sense of design is good, the "real" price is
$350 to $500. That's what it would sell for in a real store. While you
might take it to the store and ask for $175 or $200, that would be the
wholesale price. So if you sell it in person for that price, which is more
usual for most of us I think, let them know they're getting it for half
price. Or even quote that real price with 40% off.
Tina
"vj" <v...@vickijean.com> wrote...
> from Kalera Stratton
> ]In lampwork, it costs more to SELL your beads than it does
> ]to make them.
>
> i'm thinking the metalsmithing is probably going to turn out the same
> way. **sigh**
Diana Curtis
Having no prior knowledge of lampworked beads I was a little taken aback at
some of the prices they fetched on ebay. I wondered how the cost broke down.
I would have liked to have asked it about any specific bead, just to get an
idea of how much work/glass/creativity it might take to make it.
Im glad I didnt. I couldnt figure out a way to ask in a way that didnt ask
the artists to justify their prices. Its taken the length of time Ive been
here in rcb to get a feel for what goes into the making of a bead. Im also
more used to the prices for really special beads. I still only have the
vaguest idea of how much a bead costs to make. Thats good enough for me.
Really, its ok not to answer questions if they annoy you.
Diana
--
Vote this November (U.S.A.)
"vj" <v...@vickijean.com> wrote in message
news:i8i3o0t7mmbjfgpmr...@4ax.com...
> vj found this in rec.crafts.beads, from "Christina Peterson"
> <tinap...@yahoo.com> :
>
> ]And personally, I would like to have Scott stick around to keep our group
> ]more rounded.
> ]
> ]I also love it when people ask questions awkwardly. It makes me feel
more
> ]normal!
>
> seconded.
> to both.
>
>
> --
> @vicki [SnuggleWench]
> (Books) http://www.booksnbytes.com
> newest creations: http://www.vickijean.com/new.html
> -----------
> I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America,
> and to the republic which it established, one nation from many peoples,
> promising liberty and justice for all.
> Feel free to use the above variant pledge in your own postings.
Kalera Stratton
a "real" answer. He just needs the information, and he needs some
experience, which he will gain when he starts making beads. He's setting
up to learn right now, and I think he honestly doesn't know that there's
no straightforward way to calculate the cost of materials or the yield
of a rod of glass. I get the impression that he thinks people are just
being evasive, or mocking him, when they say "there's no way to
calculate that". Many newbies, even people who have been making beads
for a little while, think there's some kind of "standard"... standard
size of beads, standard mandrels, standard rod length, standard torch
setup, etc.
It's pretty hard, coming from a world of "standards", for most people to
wrap their heads around an industry that's literally being made up as we
go along. I have probably done him a disservice by giving the figure I
did, because it's worse than useless to him if what he's trying to do is
formulate a cost/yield ratio based on his fabricating experience.
There's a lot more to factor in... not just costs, but limits. There is
a built-in limit to how MANY beads an artist can make in a day, so even
if materials were free the artist has to charge enough to pay themselves
a living wage, or the enterprise fails.
Kalera Stratton
and how much does it cost in materials to make a bead?" is "It depends".
Because beads and glass prices vary so much, without some parameters the
answer just can't be given. The materials cost is minimal, but can
fluctuate wildly depending on the glass and how long the artist spent on
it... and the price has very little to do with the cost of materials.
Newbie beads made from copper green tend to sell for the same ball-park
prices as newbie beads made from turquoise, despite the fact that copper
green is *four times* the cost.
Of course, the size of the bead has to be taken into consideration, and
there is no standard. Period. SOME parameters have to be given. That's
why I chose a random bead of my own for the cost I offered... and truth
be told, the bead I chose uses one of the cheapest glasses (ivory) as
its main component. I chose that because I make ivory-based beads with
silver leaf a lot. If I'd chosen a different bead of the same size using
one of the popular premium colors, the cost could be a wo dollars per
bead... twice the cost I gave.
Dr. Sooz
well with this overwhelming pack of bitches. ;-)
lgreene
> vj found this in rec.crafts.beads, from Kalera Stratton
> <kal...@strattonhome.org> :
>
> ]In lampwork, it costs more to SELL your beads than it does
> ]to make them.
>
> i'm thinking the metalsmithing is probably going to turn out the same
> way. **sigh**
>
>
It will, vicki, it will. and it does, it does.
Diana Curtis
you lampworkers have to deal with. Its just fascinating. I keep thinking
about the cost vs what one actually gets from the sale of a bead I think
that is why I want to know the answer Scott was looking for. I was trying to
figure out if a person could actually be a self supporting artist in this
medium. Looks like that answer isnt easily quantifiable either!
Diana
--
Vote this November (U.S.A.)
"Kalera Stratton" <kal...@strattonhome.org> wrote in message
news:KL6dnTiTEdL...@comcast.com...
Peggy
Beautifully said, and so true!
Karen_AZ
for a little while, think there's some kind of "standard"... standard
size of beads, standard mandrels, standard rod length, standard torch
setup, etc.<
Sooooo true! I missed whatever started this, but trying to standardize "how
much to make A lampwork bead" is impossible. Which bead, which color, which
kind of glass, what size? A 12 mm round Moretti Medium Amethyst bead (or any
other color in that price category) might cost 20 cents in glass (but even
THAT can vary if you buy in bulk and get discounts). I can knock out a
simple round bead in just about a minute. I have a hot torch and plenty of
practice. A newbie on a Hothead is going to take longer. Then you have to
consider fuel....MAPP or propane and oxygen? Bottled oxy or a
concentrator/generator? Propane or Natural gas?
And that's all just if you're making a plain round bead. Everything can
change for a different shape and all the many kinds of decorations out
there. I've done a variety of costing, and it always gives me a headache. So
far the bills are getting paid and I can afford to buy more glass, more
frit, more metals, and even a new tool from time to time.
As an aside, I just got to play with a Nortel Red Max torch last night. OMG
I'm soooo in lust! That baby has POWER. I was pulling complex boro latticino
like it was Moretti. <drooooool>
--
KarenK
www.desertdreameraz.com
Ebay: http://stores.ebay.com/Desert-Dreamer-Designs
Justbeads: http://www.justbeads.com/search/ql.cfm?s=DesertDreamer
Kandice Seeber
depend on a whole lot of things. Even if you take out the marketing aspect
entirely. You can't even come close to guessing the cost based on the price
of beginner beads, because people price their beads very differently, and it
often has no rhyme or reason. The cost of glass alone varies from about $6
per pound to about $50 per pound - just for soft glasses.
No one was mystifying this. It's a very complicated question.
It's like asking how much it costs to make a necklace.
--
Kandice Seeber
Air & Earth Designs
http://www.lampwork.net
> Actually, I think there is a fairly simple answer. Anyone can complicate
Kandice Seeber
fine - that's a lot easier to figure out. Since we would know what glass
was used and can estimate the rest, someone would have been able to answer
that question.
The cost of the materials used to make a bead is relatively little compared
to the value of the creativity and time used.
Scott's initial question didn't annoy me. What annoyed me was the begging
of him to come back to the group. But, hey, I can be annoyed and still
participate without losing my head this time, I think. :)
--
Kandice Seeber
Air & Earth Designs
http://www.lampwork.net
Kandice Seeber
don't think we need to really *beg* anyone to come or go. But that's just
me. :)
--
Kandice Seeber
Air & Earth Designs
http://www.lampwork.net
>I really liked Scott. Period. I thought he was funny and held his own
Kandice Seeber
those of us who are trying. It all depends on the market, and it depends on
your financial situation, how much talent you have, how good at marketing
you are, and whether you love the art enough to do it for a long time.
Think of it this way - 2 painters can get wildly different prices for a
painting, even though the paint and paper used can cost around the same
amount of money. One of a kind artwork is priced not based on the cost of
the materials, but a combination of market, talent, materials, time, venue,
overhead and pure luck, and quite likely several other things I am
forgetting. :)
I know it's hard for some people to think of beads as art and not craft, but
even when thinking of them as a craft, you have to consider more than the
cost of materials and time. You can think of it in terms of hand crafted
furniture as well. Or even collectibles. The cost of making a baseball card
is minimal. But the rarity of the card and the market will decide the
price.
--
Kandice Seeber
Air & Earth Designs
http://www.lampwork.net
> All this information is like candy to me. I love hearing all the variables
Kandice Seeber
of this when just starting out. Get into it as a hobby first. Get to know
the medium. If you fall in love with it, then get into the business aspect,
because by then you will know enough to ask the right questions and get on
the right track. If you start with the business aspect before even making a
bead, how will you know if you have the talent and love of it to do it for
money? Why waste all that time and money figuring the costs of things and
how much you can sell things for, only to figure out that you don't have
enough of a knack for this to make money at it? It takes a little while to
at least get a feel for the glass and color. People don't start out making
chairs thinking "I wonder how I much I can get for making this chair that
cost me $5 to make, even though I have never made a chair before and I have
no idea what I am doing".
Back in the old days (and yes even now) people in this industry and others
apprenticed with a master before going out on their own. They absorbed
knowledge about all aspects of glass work, including the business side, in
exchange for helping out. Then they went out on their own and formed their
own business. People did this with blacksmithing and other industries as
well. I think this is a good way to do things. That's why there are
beadmaking classes. I hope Scott will at least take a class. He can get a
lot of information that way.
If Scott's serious about making beads, a class is a good place to start.
If he's just curious about costs for the heck of it (which is totally fine),
then we have already answered his questions.
--
Kandice Seeber
Air & Earth Designs
http://www.lampwork.net
> He's been around and posting on RCB for a while... that's why I gave him a
Diana Curtis
at it. We can talk cost, and if we looked at a specific bead I suppose it
could be done, broken down and examined. When we talk about what the
consumer is willing to pay thats a whole 'nother ballpark and who knows what
drives a person to buy one bead over another, and why will they pay this
much for this bead and only this much for another equally lovely one? That,
I think, may define explanation and examination.
To me there are two forms of beads, art and craft. Those which are mass
produced, lovely beads, crafted, and those such as the artists here create,
with life and soul and spirit. Those are Art. I know, this opens up the
whole debate of what is art, what is craft. The lines blur.
Thanks Kandice, you always give so freely of your information. I appreciate
it.
Diana
--
Vote this November (U.S.A.)
news:41826d14$1...@news.bnb-lp.com...
Su/Cutworks
> The cost of the materials used to make a bead is relatively little
compared
> to the value of the creativity and time used.
It amazed me how little glass is used to make a bead compared to all the
other factors involved. It really is one place where skill is the main
component.
-Su
Kandice Seeber
Yes, and I know how hard it is to figure out why some beads sell for really
high prices and some don't. It can be mind-boggling at times! It's like
looking at a painting that I really dislike and seeing a price tag of
$10,000 on it. Intellectually, I understand why. But I cringe anyway. :)
--
Kandice Seeber
Air & Earth Designs
http://www.lampwork.net
>I understand, and appreciate when any of you takes the time to take a stab
> at it. We can talk cost, and if we looked at a specific bead I suppose it
> could be done, broken down and examined. When we talk about what the
> consumer is willing to pay thats a whole 'nother ballpark and who knows
> what
> drives a person to buy one bead over another, and why will they pay this
> much for this bead and only this much for another equally lovely one?
> That,
> I think, may define explanation and examination.
> To me there are two forms of beads, art and craft. Those which are mass
> produced, lovely beads, crafted, and those such as the artists here
> create,
> with life and soul and spirit. Those are Art. I know, this opens up the
> whole debate of what is art, what is craft. The lines blur.
> Thanks Kandice, you always give so freely of your information. I
> appreciate
> it.
> Diana
> --
> Vote this November (U.S.A.)
>> It isn't easily quantifiable, and it is really hard to answer, even for
Su/Cutworks
> Yes, and I know how hard it is to figure out why some beads sell for
really
> high prices and some don't. It can be mind-boggling at times! It's like
> looking at a painting that I really dislike and seeing a price tag of
> $10,000 on it. Intellectually, I understand why. But I cringe anyway.
:)
Every time I look at something by Tracy Emin I feel the same way.
But someone thinks it's art. Weird but true.
-Su
Dr. Sooz
>It's like asking how much it costs to make a necklace.
Or....
....a painting.
....a meal.
.....a room.
....a chair.
....a ring.
....anything that is a "blank" that can be made up in different versions. I
think it would have gone better had Scott worded his question a bit less openly
-- more specifically.
Dr. Sooz
>produced, lovely beads, crafted, and those such as the artists here create,
>with life and soul and spirit. Those are Art. I know, this opens up the
>whole debate of what is art, what is craft. The lines blur.
I think you summed it up really well right here.
Dr. Sooz
>don't think we need to really *beg* anyone to come or go.
I totally agree with this, for a number of reasons.
Diana Curtis
be willing to pay for ... the item in question. Thats what it boils down to
for me. If it steals my breath away then obviously I would be willing to pay
more.
What other value people place on an item is so subjective. As you said
some people are willing to pay many dollars for things you dont feel are
attractive.
Anyway.. when I came to rcb and found out about lampwork I was stunned by
the prices the droolworthy list beads were commanding. I thought that that
was the standard, that all lampworked beads were going that high.
Now that I know that a beautiful bead takes skill with the techiques,
tools and glasses as well as an artistic spirit the prices no longer
surprise me. In fact Ive been known to root for an auction to go higher,
even when it means I lose!
Diana
--
Vote this November (U.S.A.)
"Kandice Seeber" <see...@comNOcastSPAMM.net> wrote in message
news:4182...@news.bnb-lp.com...
Tinkster
<cutw...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>Every time I look at something by Tracy Emin I feel the same way.
>
>But someone thinks it's art. Weird but true.
She's quite a character, isn't she? I'm intrigued by her work and,
yes, think it's art. Not something I'd want to own, but art
nonetheless, in my opinion.
I remember being told at a Museum class back in the mid-1960s that
"art isn't always pretty". That statement was a complete shock to my
system!!! During art class at school, we were encouraged to make
"pretty art", color inside the lines... Make something pleasing to the
eye.
After hearing that statement at the Museum, I began to see the
artistic value in works that were jarring... Works that disturbed,
frightened or haunted me.
IMO, art is a very personal thing, the definition of which is
determined by the maker. John and I have talked about this a lot. Is
art about intent? In other words, if someone says, "I'm gonna take
some mud and fling it on this paper and make art", is it then, indeed,
art? In other words, is art about INTENTION or PERCEPTION?
On the other end of the spectrum, if I were to take some glass and
melt it randomly just to melt it, with no intention of making art, and
someone came along and said, "OMG! That is ART!", would THAT make it
art?
Talk amongst yourselves... :-D
Tink
Check here for available work:
http://blackswampglassworks.com/latest.htm
Diana Curtis
Diana
--
Vote this November (U.S.A.)
"Tinkster" <game...@buckeye-express.com> wrote in message
news:bu35o0p7ap9hknmiu...@4ax.com...
Christina Peterson
I know I did.
Tina
"Kalera Stratton" <kal...@strattonhome.org> wrote in message
news:Saqdnc3Bot0...@comcast.com...
starlia
we first got married after going to a show with me. He said if he shit on a
canvas and put colors in then it would definitely sale. Low and behold a
few years later we found an artist who would insert colors and water into
his anus and then poop on the canvas and move the colored poop around.
Totally disgusting. However, if he had the photos of the actual process the
'art' sold for thousands.
It also reminds me of cats, dogs, and elephant paintings. If you have
photos of them actually creating along with the piece itself it sells for
quite a bit. I would much rather have an animal painting than a poop one
any day.
--
Starlia Klopman
www.klopmanstudios.com
"Tinkster" <game...@buckeye-express.com> wrote in message
news:bu35o0p7ap9hknmiu...@4ax.com...
Kandice Seeber
it's in the soul of the creator.
--
Kandice Seeber
Air & Earth Designs
http://www.lampwork.net
>>Every time I look at something by Tracy Emin I feel the same way.
starlia
--
Starlia Klopman
www.klopmanstudios.com
"Kandice Seeber" <see...@comNOcastSPAMM.net> wrote in message
news:4182...@news.bnb-lp.com...
Dr. Sooz
>it's in the soul of the creator.
Righteous.
Su/Cutworks
> >Unlike beauty, I don't think art is in the eye of the beholder. I think
> >it's in the soul of the creator.
>
> Righteous.
Sorry to piggyback but my newsreader is so wonky right now.
I agree but I still say Tracy Emin doesn't create art. If it's an
expression of her soul.... ergh.
-Su
Christina Peterson
Art? Actually there are some useful classic "definitions".
Jacques Maritain spoke of an Artist /Master as combining technical skill and
"poetry". "Poetry" being a deep creative cauldron combining acute
observation/perception, interpretation, and intentional presentation.
The tricky thing is that the technician is an extreme realist in both
observation and application. And the "poetry" is a property of the esthete
(like the studious monk seeking esoteric knowledge). The "artistic
personality" doesn't come into the definition.
Fortunately, we don't have to be Michael Angelo. It's enough to skillfully
complete an evocative creation. For that, I think harmony or balance is
required. Of some sort.
But this does remind me of a question I have. I see a lot of beads that are
interesting and skillful, but you know, my preference is still for "pretty
beads". Colors that delight me, harmonious shapes. And of course, for
beads to use in jewelry, this is even more true.
I also have a probably unpopular view on bead shapes. I think a lot of the
formed beads are going to end up as fads, and look "out of date" if not used
promptly.
I agree with both you and Kandace, that art comes from the artist's vision
and skill in presenting that, in invoking something. But I also be that the
definition of art includes the response of the viewer. (My mother who is
VERY classically trained disagrees; as least as far is applies to her!) It
doesn't matter if the what is perceived is what the artist presents, in my
opinion, but it is vital that the artist invokes something. I believe also
that in common with "the healing arts" attention and intention is vital.
And I think this last paragraph applies to the majority. People who are
artists and artisans, and journeymen, but not "Masters".
Tina
"Tinkster" <game...@buckeye-express.com> wrote in message
news:bu35o0p7ap9hknmiu...@4ax.com...
Christina Peterson
asking about the cost of making a bead to sell. I thought he was just
asking about the price of materials for an artistic endeavor/ journey/
hobby.
I completely agree that the time to consider a business is after you have
some basic skills. And not all of this can be learned. I can learn not to
have marginal (barely normal, not barely average) dexterity. I don't know
if I can learn not to get heat prostration easily. And of course, you
("you" in general -- not "you"-Kandace!) might not LIKE doing it. And even
if you have the technical skill for it, doesn't mean you'll have a flair for
it. Which is to say, something to offer that will make your work more
desirable than something mass produced well.
As you mentioned, Kandace, the time honored way to get into this sort of
business is to go through an apprenticeship. And possibly taking those
skills to something else if it's not the thing for you.
And I don't even want to think about the marketing part!
Tina
"Kandice Seeber" <see...@comNOcastSPAMM.net> wrote in message
news:41826f55$1...@news.bnb-lp.com...
Su/Cutworks
> Ummm. Who is Tracy Emin?
http://www.sussex.ac.uk/Units/arthist/sharp/issues/0002/pHTML/pTraceyEminMyBed01.shtml
> Fortunately, we don't have to be Michael Angelo. It's enough to
skillfully
> complete an evocative creation. For that, I think harmony or balance is
> required. Of some sort.
Well, a rumpled bed with dirty sheets isn't in the league for me. Or a tent
hand-embroidered with the name of everyone she's had sex with. It was a
small tent.
> I agree with both you and Kandace, that art comes from the artist's vision
> and skill in presenting that, in invoking something. But I also be that
the
> definition of art includes the response of the viewer. (My mother who is
> VERY classically trained disagrees; as least as far is applies to her!)
It
> doesn't matter if the what is perceived is what the artist presents, in my
> opinion, but it is vital that the artist invokes something.
Mike's an art teacher and his view is that art is what provokes a response.
He says it may not be good art or great art but it makes people think.
I can't say what Tracy Emin's bed makes me think. I just can say that the
two artists who jumped on her bed in a gallery and then claimed it was
'performance art' and a statement on her art really summed it up for me.
And the bed looked better afterwards.
-Su
Kalera Stratton
evokes emotion in both the maker and the viewer... though they need not
be the same emotion.
Art doesn't have to evoke the same emotion in everyone, or even any
emotion in everyone, as long as it's meaningful to some. My ex-husband
doesn't "get" Anne Sexton, but that doesn't mean Anne Sexton doesn't
write poetry.
Michelangelo Buonarroti is usually held up as the pinnacle of an artist,
the highest possible form of art; not only was he technically superb,
but his work also evokes powerful feelings in almost everyone who views
it. That doesn't make him the best artist of all time; it does make him
an artist most people agree on.
People often define art based on what moves *them*. That's perfectly
valid, as far as defining art for themselves goes. Where that approach
fails is when they try to apply it to the world at large.
Consider the artist who gave away everything (*everything*... he even
gave up his car, his apartment, and all of his sentimental knick knacks)
he owned as part of a performance piece. Some people get no visceral
reaction from that, but to me it's incredibly moving and powerful...
along with another other art piece he did, a garbage can full of the
detritus of Christmas.
Art is what moves you, or someone else.
Cheryl
I'm soooo in lust! That baby has POWER. I was pulling complex boro latticino
like it was Moretti. <drooooool>>
I've heard you can convert a mid-range to the RED MAX for a couple hundred $
my mid range torch holes are going south after years of abuse - I'm thinking of
upgrading to the Red Max conversion - rather than buying a new torch...
think that would be a good investment ?
Tinkster
>I just got to play with a Nortel Red Max torch last night. OMG
>I'm soooo in lust! That baby has POWER. I was pulling complex boro latticino
>like it was Moretti. <drooooool>>
>
>I've heard you can convert a mid-range to the RED MAX for a couple hundred $
>
>my mid range torch holes are going south after years of abuse - I'm thinking of
>upgrading to the Red Max conversion - rather than buying a new torch...
>
>think that would be a good investment ?
Cheryl, I had a Red Max for a little while. It was an awesome torch,
but I'm partial to centerfires. Let us know what you do, mmmkay?
Christina Peterson
OK. I have no trouble calling it self expression. But art? No. Not to
me. Part of what doesn't cut it for me, is that you have to be told (or
read) what it means. It's also prurient, which is kind of a cheap trick,
detracting from artistic value.
I agree that art provokes a response, but I think the way it works is that
because it is art and is evocative, it provokes a response, not that
something is art because it provokes a response. Making someone thing isn't
enough to make something art. Our local crazy street person, Kathleen,
walks around in 6 or 8 layers of clothes, pulling a wagon and carries a sign
telling about the rape and penetration of her body by aliens and government
agents. That sight and sign makes you think, but it sure ain't art!
Tina
"Su/Cutworks" <cutw...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:clvous$g4f$1...@sparta.btinternet.com...
Kalera Stratton
and send it back, if you decide against the upgrade.
I love the idea of the Red Max, and I might consider the upgrade myself,
if I can run it satisfactorily on three concentrators. I don't currently
need that much heat, but I'm intrigued by the idea of doing boro marbles.
Karen_AZ
>$<
Yup, about $175, I think. Way cheaper than moving up to any other bigger
torch. I can definitely see the merits in something with a centerfire, like
the Phantom, but I figure that's what the premix on top is for, with a
smaller tip.
KarenK
Marisa2
> Thirded. I wanted to ask the same question when I first came to the group.
> Having no prior knowledge of lampworked beads I was a little taken aback at
> some of the prices they fetched on ebay. I wondered how the cost broke down.
> I would have liked to have asked it about any specific bead, just to get an
> idea of how much work/glass/creativity it might take to make it.
> Im glad I didnt. I couldnt figure out a way to ask in a way that didnt ask
> the artists to justify their prices. Its taken the length of time Ive been
> here in rcb to get a feel for what goes into the making of a bead. Im also
> more used to the prices for really special beads. I still only have the
> vaguest idea of how much a bead costs to make. Thats good enough for me.
> Really, its ok not to answer questions if they annoy you.
> Diana
>
OMTP
Marisa2
Mostly because once I was going to go and said so. I meant it.
A bunch of people asked me, on-list and off-list to stay.
I did.
I'm usually quite happy with that desision.
marisa2
Kandice Seeber wrote:
> LOL yes, that's true. He's a very nice guy from what I can see. I just
> don't think we need to really *beg* anyone to come or go. But that's just
> me. :)
>
Marisa2
Sorry to laugh, I assume this is true.
There are some cool Rhinos paintings in the large animal house in
Denver. What makes me sad is how they talked about how tame and happy
this rhinos (who gets lots of extra attention and play time along with
painting time) is compared to the others. I imagine the point is that
most of the ones at the zoos are bored and frustrated in their boring
little pens.
Since lots of people like and respect elephants they tend to have a
*little* more to play with and more leg room.
I have no idea of the relative intelligence or needs of rhinos and
elephants. Just sad that either should have to stay in boring confines
which, for animals of that magnitude, end up being really tiny :(. At
least they could give them stuff to play with to keep their interest.
(BTW Lila and Sugar like their new toys from the bird fair! Lots of
wood chomping and bell ringing and block moving going on. But we still
get majorly told off if the morning routine involves us leaving instead
of letting them out!)
marisa2
Christina Peterson
reiterating the invitation.
Tina
"Marisa2" <mw...@NOSPAM.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3rWgd.25266$Qv5....@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com...
Christina Peterson
Tina
"Marisa2" <mw...@NOSPAM.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:_pWgd.25265$Qv5....@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com...
> Diana Curtis wrote:
> > Thirded. I wanted to ask the same question when I first came to the
group.....
> > Diana
>
> OMTP
Kalera Stratton
closely as possible... but in general, it's safe to assume that the
materials cost very little. Sort of like a seed-beaded project that
might take days of labor alone to complete; the finished price reflects
labor more than materials, and part of that also helps to offset the
years of "learning curve" and the cost of education and setting up a
studio. Some people can turn $4 of seed beads into a stunning work of
art worth hundreds, but of course they have years of practice and
usually a bead room full of hundreds or thousands of dollars worth of
tools, beads, and unfinished pieces; the investment that went into
turning the seed beads into the finished piece is far greater than the
$4 of materials.
I am completely certain that you already know all of this, I'm just
reiterating it for the benefit of someone who may be reading this, but
isn't yet aware of the other factors the lead into the price of lampwork
beads or finished beadwork. Look at Klew; what does polyclay cost? Not a
lot, in terms of the quantity of raw material that goes into a single
bead. Maybe a bit more, maybe a bit less than glass. But a Klew bead
earns the asking price because she has years of experience and a huge
investment of her time and dedication into the process.
I sometimes cringe when I see people selling their work for what I
consider far too low; I don't cringe because I fear they'll undercut me,
but because I fear that they'll be forced out of the industry by a
failure to meet their expenses. It makes me sad whenever someone has to
give up their art, and they so often give it up for financial reasons.
If a lampworker can't afford to go on lampworking, we lose their work,
and we lose not only where they are but where they might have gone with
it. Same for polyclay or seed beading. It's too bad, but it's a fact of
life... and I see it happening most often when someone tries to use the
old-fashioned fabrication formula of cost x 2 = price. "Glass is
cheap... I can sell these for $2/bead and make a profit!"
They would be far more accurate if they assumed that they had one
full-time employee at market rate, making, marketing, selling and
shipping the beads, ordering glass and materials, doing customer
service, ad layout, and bookkeeping. That's essentially a business
manager with accounting and publishing skills, so figure out what you
have to pay that person, then dvivide that by how many beads you're
capable of making in a month and you have your final per-bead figure.
(You're still undercutting yourself because you'll be working at least
60 hours a week, but at least you're getting closer to reality.)
Dr. Sooz
>news:3rWgd.25266$Qv5....@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com...
>> I don't know if I begged, but I did ask him to stay...
>>
>> Mostly because once I was going to go and said so. I meant it.
>> A bunch of people asked me, on-list and off-list to stay.
>>
>> I did.
>>
>> I'm usually quite happy with that desision.
>>
>> marisa2
>>
>> Kandice Seeber wrote:
>>
>> > LOL yes, that's true. He's a very nice guy from what I can see. I just
>> > don't think we need to really *beg* anyone to come or go. But that's
>just
>> > me. :)
I figure if people want to leave, they will leave -- not announce it. If they
announce it, they want people to ask them to stay. Because it's very
predictable -- you say you're leaving and people are all over you. You're
serious about leaving, and want to be left alone and go? Then you go quietly.
Announcing it means you want attention, not solitude.
Marisa2
>
>
> I figure if people want to leave, they will leave -- not announce it. If they
> announce it, they want people to ask them to stay. Because it's very
> predictable -- you say you're leaving and people are all over you. You're
> serious about leaving, and want to be left alone and go? Then you go quietly.
> Announcing it means you want attention, not solitude.
> ~~
Or you really do want to say goodbye to those who have been nice to you.
I certainly haven't seen Scott since. It could be he really is gone.
When I did say once that I wanted to go I did... the only reason I
noticed people here asking me not to go is that someone emailed me off
list and asked me to look.
I know it seems melodramatic, but being that it has happened to quite a
few people at different times, perhaps it is a real cultural phenomena
in this online sub-culture.
marisa2
Marisa2
> Or you really do want to say goodbye to those who have been nice to you.
>
> I certainly haven't seen Scott since. It could be he really is gone.
>
> When I did say once that I wanted to go I did... the only reason I
> noticed people here asking me not to go is that someone emailed me off
> list and asked me to look.
>
> I know it seems melodramatic, but being that it has happened to quite a
> few people at different times, perhaps it is a real cultural phenomena
> in this online sub-culture.
>
Especially considering an inordinate number of us suffer from depression
and/or low self-esteem and feelings of not being wanted tend to be
pervasive in this group.
Not an excuse, just a reality.
marisa2
MizKrysti
>From: "Kandice Seeber"
>
>This discussion kind of bothers me. >Please understand, this is only my
>opinion and is not meant to
>hurt anyone or tick anyone off. I just have a few things I would like to
>say.
>... yes there were a couple of short, somewhat snarky answers to Scott's
>question. But nothing too harsh - really.
>
And I have read what you posted, and ask that you read what *I* would like to
say, from the point of view as a 'newbie':
So? It's ok to be snarky, as long as it's not "too harsh - really"? I know
nothing of bead making, and the little I've learned about simple beading has
been through a short class and gleaning information from magainzes and
commercial bead sites - then I stumbled upon this group. I lurked for several
months - probably close to a year, since I cannot read every single thread,
have probably missed some posts. I don't use google to check up on 'stuff', be
it beads, businesses or past posts by other people.
Having said that, I did know that for some reason I never saw clearly
stated, Fire Mountain Gems is a company that is generally denegrated when
mentioned in this group. Another person, and myself, both asked "why". Simple
enough - given the amount of bandwidth used to discuss multiple topics, and the
'me too' reponses, it didn't seem like such a strange question to ask.
The response I got? "Google it". huh??? I was asking for opinions. OK...I did
try to 'google it', failed, reposted asking for instructions on 'how?" and
one of the regulars was kind enought to post instructions on how to 'google
it'. I thanked her, and was finally successful. And you know what? The specific
complaints about FMG were dated 1999. Nothing specific recently, except the
repetitious general concensus that they are a company to be avoided. Something
to do with misrepresenting beadwire brands. I wanted more current info. So be
it. All my googling proved is that everything lasts indefinitely on the
internet.
I just checked back on the FMG thread, (in this group) and there are 36 posts
- my questions included. Surely, it would not have been so difficult just to
answer the question the first time?
This is a knowledgable group, I am not a lampworker, and probably never will
be, but when I go to the local bead store, I like to look at the various
colorful rods, and it is facinating to imagine, which give rise to a curiosity
factor pf..."what if I DO take a class? Could I afford to buy all these colors
and make really fancy beads like the ones I see in the cases"?. I read Scott's
quesiton as, can I get 1, 5 or 25 average sized beads from a rod? Dunno what
his motivations were for asking, but *I* would like to have had an idea of the
ballpark number....and didn't know it was so darned difficult for an
experienced lampworker to guesstimate amounts.
>
><snipped again>
>Then, after I and several others actually took the time to do some legwork
>for him, he posts this:
>"Thank you Kandice for the information. I have been researching for a few
>weeks now and could not find the information I was looking for.
>My only recourse was to ask someone who might know. I don't think I fit in
>on Newsgroups. It was nice meeting all of you and thank you, to each and
>everyone of you for your time and help."
>
>It honestly felt like I was talking to a brick wall. He did thank people for
>information, but he never did give us more specifics or clarify his
>questions.
>
I thought it was a more gracious exit than some I've seen...He thanked you for
your input, didn't specifically name anyone who was ''too harsh", and flounce
out in a fit of hurt feelings.
>
>Why are we begging for Scott to come back? It's not like we did anything
>wrong.
>
You aren't, obviously, but several people liked his input. No body did anything
'wrong', it was snarky...but not 'too harsh - really'.
>I don't want to sound like I hate answering questions here on RCB. I don't.
>I have happily provided lots and lots of information here, on other forums
>and on my website.
><snip>>. And if I happen to get snarky, I usually have good reasons
>for it.
>
Most people have reasons to be in a bad mood/snarky - others are just moody.
But why bother to respond, and take it out on others? Why not just take the
time to realize that, maybe someone really is in awe of your knowledge - and
not trying to make you do their legwork?.
I, for one, won't be too quick to ask any more general questions.
--
MizKrysti
Kalera Stratton
you exactly why Fire Mountain is generally disliked is that no one wants
to be threatened with a libel lawsuit. Telling you to search the
newsgroups for past posts allows them to impart you with the information
without making themselves liable for harming Fire Mountain's ability to
do business.
Lots of questions don't seem unreasonable from the perspective of the
person asking... for instance, I have people emailing me daily asking
for instructions on how I make certain of my beads. Lots of answers
don't seem unreasonable to the people answering, given their particular
knowledge and experience.
"How much does it cost to make a bead?" is too general a question to
formulate an answer that makes sense. That's what people were trying to
say. And yes, that seems really obvious to some of us and not so obvious
to others, so answers varied.
Kandice Seeber
> And I have read what you posted, and ask that you read what *I* would like
> to
> say, from the point of view as a 'newbie':
> So? It's ok to be snarky, as long as it's not "too harsh - really"?
People are free to post their opinions. I was relatively firm in my post,
but was not disrespectful. That's what I mean.
I know
> nothing of bead making, and the little I've learned about simple beading
> has
> been through a short class and gleaning information from magainzes and
> commercial bead sites - then I stumbled upon this group. I lurked for
> several
> months - probably close to a year, since I cannot read every single
> thread,
> have probably missed some posts.
Most people have this same issue. Not everyone can read every post. No
biggie - just don't expect people to take the time to type out answers to
the same questions over and over again. If you're stepping into the middle
of a conversation, it's polite to try and find the answers yourself before
asking something that's been asked already, a lot. Common courtesy.
I don't use google to check up on 'stuff', be
> it beads, businesses or past posts by other people.
Well, then, you're missing out. Google is a powerful tool. Why should you
expect people to do the work for you when you won't do the work yourself?
Google is simple and easy.
> Having said that, I did know that for some reason I never saw clearly
> stated, Fire Mountain Gems is a company that is generally denegrated when
> mentioned in this group. Another person, and myself, both asked "why".
> Simple
> enough - given the amount of bandwidth used to discuss multiple topics,
> and the
> 'me too' reponses, it didn't seem like such a strange question to ask.
> The response I got? "Google it". huh??? I was asking for opinions. OK...I
> did
> try to 'google it', failed, reposted asking for instructions on 'how?"
> and
> one of the regulars was kind enought to post instructions on how to
> 'google
> it'. I thanked her, and was finally successful. And you know what? The
> specific
> complaints about FMG were dated 1999. Nothing specific recently, except
> the
> repetitious general concensus that they are a company to be avoided.
> Something
> to do with misrepresenting beadwire brands. I wanted more current info. So
> be
> it. All my googling proved is that everything lasts indefinitely on the
> internet.
You didn't find the posts, then. We have talked about Fire Mountain Gems
several times this past couple of years. I am personally tired of typing
out my answers to that question, so I mostly stayed out of that thread.
> I just checked back on the FMG thread, (in this group) and there are 36
> posts
> - my questions included. Surely, it would not have been so difficult just
> to
> answer the question the first time?
It's a complicated topic. The answer is not so easy. You'll find that if
there is an easy answer to something, someone will answer. If it's a
complicated, drawn out, emotional issue, you can't expect quick, simple
answers. People will post an answer if they feel like it. You know, the
regulars here are pretty good with answering questions. But if you come
here demanding and expecting an answer to every question you have, people
can feel used. Our time is worthy, too.
> This is a knowledgable group, I am not a lampworker, and probably never
> will
> be, but when I go to the local bead store, I like to look at the various
> colorful rods, and it is facinating to imagine, which give rise to a
> curiosity
> factor pf..."what if I DO take a class? Could I afford to buy all these
> colors
> and make really fancy beads like the ones I see in the cases"?.
You can usually get that answered at the class you take. Or you can look up
the multitude of suppliers and find out. Or you can post *specific*
questions about costs. My problem with Scott's post was *not* that he'd
asked a question - it was that he'd asked too broad of a question, and then
didn't respond when we asked him for specifics.
I read Scott's
> quesiton as, can I get 1, 5 or 25 average sized beads from a rod?
That's not what he asked.
Dunno what
> his motivations were for asking, but *I* would like to have had an idea of
> the
> ballpark number....and didn't know it was so darned difficult for an
> experienced lampworker to guesstimate amounts.
Well, there were several posts as to the fact that we could not give a
ballpark number. Because beads are almost never made from one color.
>><snipped again>
>>Then, after I and several others actually took the time to do some legwork
>>for him, he posts this:
>>"Thank you Kandice for the information. I have been researching for a few
>>weeks now and could not find the information I was looking for.
>>My only recourse was to ask someone who might know. I don't think I fit
>>in
>>on Newsgroups. It was nice meeting all of you and thank you, to each and
>>everyone of you for your time and help."
>>
>>It honestly felt like I was talking to a brick wall. He did thank people
>>for
>>information, but he never did give us more specifics or clarify his
>>questions.
>>
>
> I thought it was a more gracious exit than some I've seen...He thanked you
> for
> your input, didn't specifically name anyone who was ''too harsh", and
> flounce
> out in a fit of hurt feelings.
>
It wasn't his leaving that I took issue with. It was the begging for him to
come back. I explained that in my post.
>>Why are we begging for Scott to come back? It's not like we did anything
>>wrong.
>>
> You aren't, obviously, but several people liked his input. No body did
> anything
> 'wrong', it was snarky...but not 'too harsh - really'.
I like the input of most everyone here. That's not my point.
>>I don't want to sound like I hate answering questions here on RCB. I
>>don't.
>>I have happily provided lots and lots of information here, on other forums
>>and on my website.
>><snip>>. And if I happen to get snarky, I usually have good reasons
>>for it.
>>
>
> Most people have reasons to be in a bad mood/snarky - others are just
> moody.
> But why bother to respond, and take it out on others?
I did not take anything out on anyone. I was completely respectful in my
posts. I have the right to my opinion, and so do you.
Why not just take the
> time to realize that, maybe someone really is in awe of your knowledge -
> and
> not trying to make you do their legwork?.
It may not be intentional, but sometimes I feel people are asking me to sum
up thousands of hours of work in small, digestible posts, without doing any
research first. Look - my time, money and effort are just as valuable as
everyone else's. And I have put forth a lot of all three to get where I am.
If I ask someone for specifics when they ask a general question, I don't
expect them to ignore me and then complain that I didn't answer their
question. And I certainly expect people to use common courtesy around here.
If they don't, they can expect to get called on it.
> I, for one, won't be too quick to ask any more general questions.
That's your prerogative.
Kandice Seeber
that.
--
Kandice Seeber
Air & Earth Designs
http://www.lampwork.net
> Miz Krysti, the short and sweet answer about why no one wants to tell you
LC aka Fiddy
>
oK.
The Blessed Fiddy, Patroness Saint of the Disorganized
LC in Sunny So Cal
Personality Development Specialist (Full-Time Mom!)
Kandice Seeber
to find the words I personally tried to find but could not.
--
Kandice Seeber
Air & Earth Designs
http://www.lampwork.net
>
>> Why not just take the
>>> time to realize that, maybe someone really is in awe of your knowledge -
>>> and
>>> not trying to make you do their legwork?.
>>
>> It may not be intentional, but sometimes I feel people are asking me to
>> sum
>> up thousands of hours of work in small, digestible posts, without doing
>> any
>> research first. Look - my time, money and effort are just as valuable as
>> everyone else's. And I have put forth a lot of all three to get where I
>> am.
>
> I haven't been "into" beadwork for decades, but I have put in
> thousands of hours of research. I have also spent hundreds of hours
> answering beady questions here on the newsgroup, both general and
> specific.
>
> I rarely ask a question here on the group, unless it's asking for
> opinions, or if it's something that I cannot find from my own
> research. The latter is a rather rare occurance - there is very
> little information that cannot be found with a little online
> research.
> During the past year or so, I've answered the FMG question at least
> three times, with detailed information and fully expressed opinions.
> That takes time to write and even more time to research. Anyone who
> has read this group for more than a few weeks will know that I am not
> the healthiest critter in the litter, and writing these answers is a
> labor of love. Maybe it's selfish, but I think that if I can spend
> many hours researching and many hours writing, it's not a lot to ask
> subsequent questioners to look up my answer instead of asking me to
> write the information yet another time.
>
> Asking someone to look up a previously posted answer and giving them
> pointers on finding it is not a rude thing, IMO. I consider my time
> to have value because there is a limited amount of pain-free time I
> have available. (I'm not alone in this) Many of the other "regulars"
> in this group are working people, and the time they spend here is
> money they aren't earning.
>
>>> I, for one, won't be too quick to ask any more general questions.
>>
>> That's your prerogative.
>>
> Asking a general question is no sin. But please take a look at the
> Bead Notes first, and maybe spend a few moments looking at Google.
> Chances are very good that your question has been answered dozens of
> times, and it's just good manners to check. No one will jump on you
> if you don't check, of course, but they might not be inclined to
> answer, either.
>
> BTW, the short answer on FMG for me is that I don't care for their
> business practices, and I choose not to buy from them. I've also
> found that their prices are higher than the same items from other
> suppliers, and I prefer to purchase from small businesspeople
> whenever possible.
>
> Kathy N-V
>
Kalera Stratton
was the driving force behind the brevity of the comments... and it's
also the reason that I held my tongue.
Christina Peterson
And you know, speaking of that learning curve, you also are not really
paying for someone's time. I like flowers, so I'll use that as an example.
Heather Davis probably whips out her cameo beads in what? 5 minutes?
(sorry, I really have no idea). If someone with less skill takes 20 minutes
to get a round bead, and make the swirls and dots for beads like them, it
doesn't mean the beads are more valuable. In fact the work may well be
sloppy, the bead less round, and the glass less clear. I know I have paid
between $4 and $10 for a single moderate encased floral. Actually, the most
skillfully made ones have been the $5-6 one. This is probably more in the
category of artisan than art. But it's like the cheapest peaches being the
best, you have the most and the best when conditions (including skill are at
the peak). So, ironically, when things are fairly easy and reasonably quick
(for the individual artist) that the work is likely to be the best.
Serendipity. When I get some Heather Davis floral beads, it's not her glass
OR time at the torch I pay (rather little) for, it's her skill, education
and talent. And most often, when someone put a whole lot of time and hard
work into a bead, I'm paying for education more than the product of their
education.
This same applies for using beads too. Someone who can "whip through"
something using a familiar stitch makes a better woven project than someone
agonizing along the whole way. Because of my dexterity problems, I drop
things a lot. I get the tension tight, but I often spend time having to
pick up strung projects, or finding the holes in beads. Since I can't
honestly expect anyone to pay a premium for my disability, my hourly
expectations have to be lower. Then I have to try to raise them by using
better design elements.
Lately I've been drawn to some of my old designs. Simple but with lots of
play in the coloring. Sometimes we think we always have to try new things,
but we really don't. Enriching works. Back to Heather Davis, she's using
some old designs but much enriched. And sometimes you come across very
simple work by someone very talented -- like perfect round beads, in a
perfectly clear glass (or maybe two colors that seem to blend and shift).
It doesn't always have to be more stuff, and more time, and more and more.
And a technique can be hard because it just isn't something that you can
integrate well, while another technique just seems to happen naturally in
your hands.
Oh heck. I'm rambling. But one more thing.
You mentioned the thing about artists needing to include the price of a full
time manager, whether it's themselves, a family member, or an employee.
This is so very true. This is one of the (set of) skills Kandace has to
such an admirable degree.
I think one of the sorriest things I see in beadmakers trying to progress,
is beads being sold that are not this person's best work. I think this is
probably the biggest error an artisan/sellers can make. The buyer cannot
be sure of the quality, so those premium prices will never be available to
these sellers. I think most of those too low priced beads are the result
not culling work strictly enough. There are lots of beadmakers whom I can
no longer afford, and the biggest thing I see is that each set I buy is
better, as is each set I can't buy. I got a few Gina deStevens beads a few
years ago. She had just started her upswing into higher but affordable
prices, and her product was consistently good, and her designs were
excellent. And because of that she was "discovered" and her prices tripled!
This is true of our local marketing guru Kandace too. So if you want the
good prices, NEVER put up a second rate product. And for crying out loud,
if something doesn't sell because it's slightly off, do not keep relisting
it. One lampworker I like is making wonderful progress, but still keeps
some "almost" beads listed. One in particular has lovely sparkling dichro
and white scrollwork. That white scrollwork is stark and stops me cold, and
probably stops others cold too (like it would for Sooz). The bead would
probably work up wonderfully with white pearls and blue Swarovski by someone
who likes to work with white, but comes across as "not quite" and it pulls
her other prices down.
Still rambling. Oh no.
Good post, Kalera.
Tina
"Kalera Stratton" <kal...@strattonhome.org> wrote in message
news:gOOdnWDrfdP...@comcast.com...
Diana Curtis
I would love to see every artist in every medium read your post.
Diana
--
Vote this November (U.S.A.)
"Christina Peterson" <tinap...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:418563c1$1...@news.acsalaska.net...
starlia
--
Starlia Klopman
www.klopmanstudios.com
"Diana Curtis" <mdcu...@baldwin-sodatelecom.net> wrote in message
news:QeednU8dxJO...@bright.net...
Kalera Stratton
Mountain from memory, you would be recounting second- and third-hand
experiences, and possibly opening yourself up to defamation claims; much
better to have someone search and find all the firsthand accounts.
Kathy N-V wrote:
> On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 15:27:53 -0500, Kandice Seeber wrote
> (in message <41854aca$1...@news.bnb-lp.com>):
>
>
>>Oh, good point about the libel issue, Kalera. I totally hadn't thought of
>>that.
>>
>>
>
>
> I'm not especially worried about that, at least as far as my own
> postings are concerned. Everything I've written is my opinion and
> stated as such. Also the truth is an absolute defense against libel
> - you can only get in trouble if you wrote something that isn't true.
>
> As far as I've seen, everything that's been written here in the time
> I've been around is factual, and wouldn't get the writer in trouble.
>
> Kathy N-V
>
Kalera Stratton
point out one small thing: when I talk about the price of beads being
determined by the artist's time, I'm not just talking about torch time.
The better you get, the less time you spend making the beads... and a
correspondingly greater amount of time is spent in marketing, promotion,
ordering, customer service, packing and shipping, and other busywork
that is not directly related to making the beads.
-snip-
Christina Peterson
time at the torch is far more important than the time you spend with a bead
right now. Also the time you spend as a business manager makes a huge
impact. And if you can't be your own manager sometimes you have to pay
someone else to do it. Like the store who sells to the public, or a partner
or family member. I think the one thing the bead maker almost always has to
do personally is that quality control.
Tina
"Kalera Stratton" <kal...@strattonhome.org> wrote in message
news:-aSdnZTS1sS...@comcast.com...
Su/Cutworks
> That's a really good point, Kalera - it really does cost a lot in time as
> well as money to market the beads. :)
I think that as in any self-representing art, the marketing and additional
work takes up as much or sometimes far more time than the actual creation of
the art.
-Su
Dr. Sooz
>determined by the artist's time, I'm not just talking about torch time.
>The better you get, the less time you spend making the beads... and a
>correspondingly greater amount of time is spent in marketing, promotion,
>ordering, customer service, packing and shipping, and other busywork
>that is not directly related to making the beads.
Yes. It's true across the board.....when I was doing the stamp company, I
ended up being unable to spend time designing new stamps (I drew my own, and
they were totally awesome) because of all the administrative work, the filling
of orders, the designing advertising, the this, the that. It ate up every
second. If it hadn't been for my doctors ganging up on me and convincing me
that I was hurting myself (they were absolutely right), and had to stop, I
would've restructured the whole thing.
Being a working artist means never having the time to be creative, for many. I
wonder how many working artists find their businesses self-immolating because
they simply don't have time to make freshness in their work --- because they're
being vampire-sucked by the non-creative demands upon them.
Dr. Sooz
whatever they want. It's open to the entire GLOBE.
In fact, what happens constantly is this: we hear the same things over and
over. The same inane questions from people who don't bother to do their
research. The same questions from people who want members of this NG to do
their work FOR them. It happens a FREAKING LOT.
So sometimes we get touchy with someone, like Scott, who has done some research
(though he didn't say he had at first -- are we supposed to read his mind?).
Excuse the hell out of us. We get tired of lazy people coming here and saying,
"I've just discovered beading -- two days ago! How do I make tons of money at
it? I'm ready to go into business! Do the work for me!" If you've been here
for any length of time at all, you know it happens all the time. We start to
feel used. Krysti, to give you the benefit of the doubt, your first post here
was April 2004, so maybe you wouldn't know that.
>I just checked back on the FMG thread, (in this group) and there are 36 posts
>- my questions included. Surely, it would not have been so difficult just to
>answer the question the first time?
You know, we get tired of answering the same questions repeatedly -- whether
you could find the answers or not. If it happened to you, you'd feel the same
way.
>I read Scott's
>quesiton as, can I get 1, 5 or 25 average sized beads from a rod? Dunno what
>his motivations were for asking, but *I* would like to have had an idea of
>the
>ballpark number....and didn't know it was so darned difficult for an
>experienced lampworker to guesstimate amounts.
There ARE no guesstimate amounts. There ARE no "average" beads. That was the
answer. Everything was fine until Kandice got a little short with Scott, and
he took umbrage. And left in a huff. Which was overreacting.
Do you knw what Kandice is going through IRL? No? Then you might want to pull
in your claws a little bit til you DO know.
>He thanked you for
>your input, didn't specifically name anyone who was ''too harsh", and flounce
>out in a fit of hurt feelings.
He DID flounce out in a fit of hurt feelings.
>But why bother to respond, and take it out on others?
Why bother to respond, and take it out on others? I'm asking YOU. Because
that is what you've done here....exactly what you accuse her of.
>Why not just take the
>time to realize that, maybe someone really is in awe of your knowledge - and
>not trying to make you do their legwork?
See above.
>I, for one, won't be too quick to ask any more general questions.
Yes, please google it first. It's basic Usenet etiquette.
Dr. Sooz
>thousands of hours of research. I have also spent hundreds of hours
>answering beady questions here on the newsgroup, both general and
>specific.
OMTP. I've answered a zillion questions -- pleasantly, believe it or not. And
that's why I put the Links List and Bead Notes together......to HELP people
help themselves. (Oh, one thing isn't a Me Too -- I've been beading for 38
years.)
Dr. Sooz
>> up thousands of hours of work in small, digestible posts, without doing any
>
>> research first. Look - my time, money and effort are just as valuable as
>> everyone else's. And I have put forth a lot of all three to get where I am.
It's called Being A Consultant, and people get paid for it. No one pays anyone
here anything when they ask complex, demanding questions.
Dr. Sooz
>three times, with detailed information and fully expressed opinions.
>That takes time to write and even more time to research.
And the detailed answer was posted recently -- there was a link to Becki's very
comprehensive answer to the FMG question. Krysti, if you didn't find it, it's
not our fault. You need to look more carefully and thoroughly.
Dr. Sooz
>has read this group for more than a few weeks will know that I am not
>the healthiest critter in the litter, and writing these answers is a
>labor of love. Maybe it's selfish, but I think that if I can spend
>many hours researching and many hours writing, it's not a lot to ask
>subsequent questioners to look up my answer instead of asking me to
>write the information yet another time.
Righteous, Kathy.
Dr. Sooz
>to find the words I personally tried to find but could not.
OMTP.